Next Level Soul Podcast with Alex Ferrari

Episode: FLASHBACK FRIDAYS: Your Soul Wants You to Know This with Jeffrey Davis
Date: April 11, 2025
Guest: Jeffrey Davis, author of “Tracking Wonder: Reclaiming a Life of Meaning and Possibility in a World Obsessed with Productivity”

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, host Alex Ferrari welcomes Jeffrey Davis to discuss how reclaiming wonder can profoundly shape our creative lives, soul’s path, and overall fulfillment. Davis, a consultant and author, explores how cultivating and tracking wonder—especially amid adversity—leads to more meaningful, innovative, and satisfying personal and professional journeys.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin and Science of Wonder

• How Jeffrey’s Journey Began

  • Davis describes a formative encounter with yoga philosophy (~04:34) which stated, “the nature of reality might be like this ordinary waking world...when you can experience ultimate reality right here in this ordinary world, then you're characterized quite often by wonder or a sort of joy-filled amazement.”
  • This inspired a 15-year deep dive into the experiences and science behind wonder, leading to personal breakthroughs, especially during times of adversity (house fire, illness, etc.).

• Emergence of the Science of Awe & Wonder

  • Collaborative work with psychologists like Dr. Keltner (Pixar consultant) and the initial lack of wonder research in the early 2000s, with science now catching up (~06:35).

2. Wonder Among High Achievers and Creatives

• The Spielberg Factor

  • Spielberg’s career is cited as the model for sustained wonder in storytelling:

    “Their surprising advantage is ... they've maintained an abiding sense of wonder.”
    — Jeffrey Davis (08:45)

  • Wes Anderson and studios like Pixar are mentioned as creative spaces that maintain vibrant, childlike openness and awe (~09:51).

• Wonder in Animation and Filmmaking

  • Davis recaps interviews with filmmakers like Mark Osborne (Kung Fu Panda, The Little Prince):

    “Every animated film is like a nightmare...”
    — Mark Osborne relayed by Jeffrey Davis (11:53)

  • Echoing Ken Burns:

    “Every documentary is like a million problems.”
    — Ken Burns, as relayed by Davis (12:26)

• The Value of Play in Creative Environments

  • Discusses how designed spaces for play in studios like Disney, Google, and Apple foster wonder and creative productivity, supporting the notion that “goofing around” leads to breakthroughs (~19:01).

3. Why Wonder Fades As We Grow Up

• Neurological and Cultural Reasons
  • Davis explains wonder naturally wanes due to both brain development (synaptic pruning in adolescence) and cultural pressures:

    “We swim in a culture in this country that prizes productivity to a fault, and daydreaming and wondering doesn't appear productive, although I could argue and demonstrate why it ultimately is.”
    — Jeffrey Davis (17:04)

  • Stress on rediscovering wonder as adults:

    “Wonder is not kid stuff. It is radical. Really important, grown up stuff.”
    — Jeffrey Davis (18:51)

4. Reclaiming Lost Wonder: Geniuses Retrieve Childhood at Will

• Accessing Your “Young Genius”

  • Davis urges recalling moments from ages 7-10 when you were “alive and free to be distinctly you,” and integrating those traits into your current life.

    “Genius is the capacity to retrieve childhood at will.”
    — Charles Baudelaire, quoted by Davis (21:38)

  • Ancient philosophy: Genius as “daemon,” a unique force of character we’re born with but forget—a notion resonant with the creative sense of rediscovering one’s calling.

5. The Dark Side: Losing Hope & Wonder

• What Causes Cynicism and Bitterness?

  • Factors like trauma and the failure to sustain hope are connected to the loss of wonder.

    “One of the six facets of wonder... is the facet of hope... it's very proactive.”
    — Jeffrey Davis (29:49)

• Nick Cave’s Story

  • Cave’s journey through tragic loss and healing through community, creativity, and eventually restoring wonder via connection and meaningful work:

    “...for me and probably for most creative people... it's a sense of wonder. And the trauma completely divorced us from that sense of wonder...”
    — Nick Cave as told by Davis (33:47)

6. Wonder & Creative Flow

• How Wonder Feeds Creativity in Any Field

  • Davis outlines creativity as “the capacity to generate and act on ideas, novel and useful ideas, from fantasy to fruition,” while wonder is “a heightened state of awareness brought on by something unexpected.”
  • Wonder disrupts bias, expands possibility, and pushes through challenges at every stage of creation (~38:57).

• Alex’s Experience

  • Alex describes his podcasting journey through continual states of wonder—meeting heroes, unexpected opportunities, and maintaining openness (~42:19).

7. Six Facets of Wonder

(Timestamps ~44:56 to 48:41)
Davis lays out six interconnected aspects, grouped as pairs:

• Openness & Curiosity: Begin creative journeys by radically opening to possibility and proactively seeking new knowledge or challenging the status quo.
• Bewilderment & Hope: Embrace confusion; hope is daydreaming proactive possible futures, building resilience without burnout.
• Connection & Admiration: Collaboration and shared wonder with others, and feeling genuine admiration for excellence, which inspires self-growth.

“Connection is... our yearning to sync up with one another... Admiration is... a surprising love for someone's excellence in craft or character.”
— Jeffrey Davis (44:57–48:41)

8. Cultural Barriers: Why Wonder Is “Childish”

• Historical Roots

  • The Protestant work ethic and industrial-age obsession with productivity led to widespread dismissal of daydreaming and wonder.

    “In Scotland in the 17th century, there was an illness called the wonders... sort of gazing, being in a stupor.”
    — Jeffrey Davis (56:04)

• Challenging These Patterns

  • Davis urges listeners to interrogate and disrupt their own assumptions about productivity vs. imagination, advocating for “deliberate daydreaming” as a wellspring of innovation and fulfillment.

9. Practical Tools for Reclaiming Wonder

• DOSE Practice
  • Detect your default patterns
  • Open up and feel them
  • Seek out a new perspective or experience
  • Extend and reflect on the positive change

“...Could I seek out something different? Instead of checking my phone, could I step outside for three minutes and look up at the sky?”
— Jeffrey Davis (67:13)

• Break Better: Incorporate “wonder interventions” into daily routines—walks, curiosity conversations, daydreaming at tired times, and end-of-day reflection on surprising/highlight moments.
• Pause, Gaze, Praise: Take moments to observe the ordinary, offering silent praise—“something's going to shift for you... potential moments of wonder pass by every day.” (91:22)

10. Creativity as Tuning into Wonder

• Origins of Creative Flow

  • Wonder begins with not-knowing; connection to nature or openness is key.
  • High performers establish conditions (time blocks, turning off distractions) to reliably tap into their personal flow.

    “If it's true that all wisdom begins in wonder, all true knowledge begins in not knowing.”
    — Jeffrey Davis (80:13)

• Ideas as “Goldfish” in the Mind

  • Davis’ analogy:

    “There are goldfish floating past the aquarium of our awareness constantly... have we set up conditions to observe and capture them?”
    — Jeffrey Davis (85:34)

• Stories of Spielberg and Prince

  • Both tuned in to the muse, collecting ideas before they “swim away.”
  • Notable quote from Prince:

    “I got to get this out because if I don't, Michael Jackson's gonna take it.”
    (84:34)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Genius is the capacity to retrieve childhood at will." — Charles Baudelaire (21:38, via Davis)
• “Wonder is not kid stuff. It’s radical, really important grown-up stuff.” — Jeffrey Davis (18:51)
• “All wisdom begins in wonder, all true knowledge begins in not knowing.” — Jeffrey Davis (80:13)
• “Every human being is born wide-eyed with wonder... perhaps we’re here to wonder.” — Jeffrey Davis (16:08)
• “There are goldfish floating past the aquarium of our awareness constantly...” — Jeffrey Davis (85:34)

Highlighted Timestamps

• 04:34 — Jeffrey’s introduction to the philosophy of wonder
• 09:16–11:21 — Discussion of creative giants (Spielberg, Pixar, Mark Osborne)
• 16:08–18:51 — Why wonder wanes with age; reclaiming it as adults
• 21:38–24:20 — Baudelaire on genius; “retrieving childhood at will”
• 29:12–33:47 — On bitterness, hope, and the Nick Cave story
• 38:57–44:36 — Wonder’s role in creativity; Alex’s personal story
• 44:56–48:41 — The Six Facets of Wonder
• 54:55–57:54 — Cultural barriers: the roots and repercussions of devaluing wonder
• 67:07–71:46 — DOSE and practical exercises for cultivating wonder
• 80:13–85:34 — Where does creative inspiration (“muse”) really come from?

Final Takeaways

• Wonder is innate but must be deliberately cultivated in adulthood.
• Creative success often depends less on “grit” or talent and more on maintaining wonder.
• Daily and organizational habits—openness, curiosity, connection, reflection—can systematically raise your “wonder ratio.”
• Reclaiming lost wonder is both a radical and pragmatic strategy for a more meaningful, fulfilled, and impactful life.

Learn more about Jeffrey Davis and his book at trackingwonder.com
Podcast show notes & resources: nextlevelsoul.com/021