What is the Meaning of Life? with Tim Freke

Summary

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Next Level Soul Podcast with Alex Ferrari

Episode NLS 672: What is the Meaning of Life? with Tim Freke
Date: March 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This thought-provoking episode of the Next Level Soul Podcast finds host Alex Ferrari joined by renowned philosopher, author, and spiritual teacher Tim Freke. Together, they dive into the central mysteries of existence — selfhood, evolution, spirituality, and what it truly means to be alive. Tim offers a radically evolutionary and post-scientific perspective on reality, spirituality, and the meaning of life, challenging traditional and modern dogmas while emphasizing the importance of both the individual and the collective journey. The discussion is candid, open, and tinged with humor, inviting listeners to embrace curiosity, hold their beliefs gently, and see everyday life as deeply significant.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Who Are We, Really?

[04:19 – 09:19]

• Tim’s Grounded Introduction:
  • Tim shares his fundamental view: "Hello, I'm Tim. I'm 67 years old. I'm going to die. Life is beautiful and horrible and everything in between and I want to live it to the full and I want to know what it is as best as I can." (04:52)
  • The pursuit of understanding and fulfillment has led him to spirituality, but curiosity about life at large drives him.
• Early Awakening:
  • At age 12, while walking his dog on a hill, Tim had his first "deep awake" experience — a sudden sense of oneness, connection, and universal love. This ineffable moment launched a lifelong journey to understand and share this state.
  • "The biggest thing was the love, Alex. That was the thing that really hit me as a kid — this enormous whole universe is pulsating with love. How did I miss that?" (06:31)

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2. Aging, Death, and Spiritual Maturation

[09:19 – 21:14]

• The Spiritual Midlife Shift:
  • Alex reflects on personal changes in his 50s, feeling life as a kind of "game" and questioning the naturalness of this progression.
  • Tim: "Every human life regardless has a certain shape to it...an archetypal journey that unfolds underneath each individual journey." (11:51)
• The Mistaken “Game” Analogy:
  • Tim cautions against diminishing the significance of life by seeing it as just a game or movie: "No, it's not a dream, it's not a movie. It's the experience of being human. That's what it is. It's not like anything. It's the experience of being human." (18:19)
  • He encourages presence: don’t miss the realness and significance of our experiences and relationships.

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3. Evolving Spirituality: A New Paradigm

[21:47 – 29:33]

• Past vs. Emergent Spirituality:
  • Tim critiques traditional spirituality as being rooted in ancient understandings — i.e., the myth that we have "fallen" from a supernatural state and must return home.
  • Instead, he proposes: "We haven't fallen from anywhere… Actually we're growing up into something." (28:22)
• An Evolutionary Universe:
  • Drawing on scientific insight, Tim emphasizes that the universe is a 14-billion-year process transforming from simple hydrogen to conscious beings:
    • "The universe is not a thing, it's a process." (21:47)
    • "We are growing up into something — the cosmos is flowering through us." (29:33)

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4. Soul, Reincarnation, and Survival after Death

[29:33 – 38:26]

• Reincarnation Through Evolution:
  • Tim views the soul, not as an eternal supernatural entity, but as an emergent property of evolutionary development:
    • "Matter has become alive, astonishing. Life has evolved sentience and consciousness... the psyche is the Greek word for soul... we are experiencing two levels of reality." (30:48)
  • Survival after death and reincarnation are plausible within this evolutionary model, but not guaranteed or uniform.
• Time Accumulates, Identity Emerges:
  • Tim introduces the idea that "time does not pass, it accumulates," so the past is implicit in our current form. Identity is thus a process, not a fixed supernatural kernel. (36:14)

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5. Collective Consciousness: Forming the Super-Intelligence

[41:25 – 47:12]

• Communion Creates the Divine:
  • Tim posits that the traditional idea of merging into a pre-existing God is inverted:
    • "The communion of souls is God. That's what is God. So that by coming into that communion, we are creating this super intelligence, we're creating this bigger thing or we're contributing towards it our own little." (43:06)
• Oneness as an Emergent Process:
  • The "One" is not a pre-existing conscious being, but the sum total and potential of all existence — an ongoing, emergent reality.
    • “Now when I say, yeah, it all starts with the One. I mean the One, like when you talk about in maths, one. Something undivided, something which has no qualities...That potential to become anything has become this...” (44:54)

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6. The Limits of Language and the Knowing Beyond Words

[47:12 – 51:07]

• Gnosis and the Edge of Explanation:
  • Both Alex and Tim reflect on the limits of language when approaching true spiritual knowing. Gnosis — a direct experiential knowing — often transcends what can be described.
  • "That's why a lot of the ancient truths are so simple. So basic... Because they are the most powerful." (47:16)

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7. Integration, Revision, and the Evolution of Belief

[55:07 – 67:22]

• Holding Beliefs Lightly:
  • Tim has written over 34 books, many with ideas he now questions, and champions the ability to change and grow:
    • "There's a flavor for me now...as I've come into my 60s now...anything we do to take us away from [life’s importance] is a loss, actually." (18:19)
  • Emphasizes fluidity, curiosity, and the courage to revise one’s worldview as understanding deepens.
• Encouragement for Listeners:
  • "If you do experience that [spiritual experience], it becomes much easier...to evolve your ideas, because you're not relying on them." (67:22)

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8. Reimagining Spiritual Culture: Beyond Dogma and Division

[69:27 – 76:12]

• Integration over Pluralism:
  • Drawing a humorous analogy with Bruce Lee and mixed martial arts, Alex and Tim discuss the necessity of integrating wisdom from all traditions to forge a new, relevant spiritual path.
  • "This is an age now not of pluralism only, but of integration. Now we need to see if we're living in one reality, which it seems we are, what is its nature?" (72:29)

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9. The Role of Ego in Evolution and Spirituality

[76:12 – 81:17]

• Not a Battle, But a Balance:
  • Tim distinguishes between egotism (selfishness) and "ego" as the necessary sense of 'I':
    • "The word actually just means the I, the I am...there is an enormous love and a benevolence, a universal benevolence, which means you're not just thinking of yourself."
  • Introduces “unividuals” — individuals awake to unity:
    • “We're evolving from individuals to what I call unividuals, where a univigil is an individual now conscious of unity with the universe.” (81:17)

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10. Every Life Matters: The Individual and the Whole

[82:02 – 93:59]

• Contribution of Each Soul:
  • Tim opposes the "drop-in-the-ocean" nihilism of some spiritual doctrines, insisting on the immense value of each individual experience:
    • "What you bring to God is you. And what you're doing right now is forming you. And what you bring into that communion is everything you have become." (82:02)
• Nature’s Lesson:
  • Alex and Tim elaborate the analogy of ecosystems and bodies, where the whole depends on every part — and even seemingly insignificant lives have critical meaning.
• Finding Beauty in the Small:
  • Tim: "The smallness of life can be just as beautiful if it comes into color." (88:39)

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11. The Great Challenge: Understanding Each Other

[94:15 – 96:16]

• From "Enemies" to Friends:
  • Tim’s parting truth: The world desperately needs to "understand each other not from our own perspective, but from the perspective of the other...To find a way to turn enemies into friends." (94:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Living and Dying Well:
  • "I want to be able to approach my death feeling like I've done my best, or if that's too ambitious, I've done my best to do my best." (04:52) — Tim Freke
• On Real Spiritual Maturity:
  • “It’s the experience of being human. That’s what it is. Not like anything. It’s the experience of being human. And that human adventure, and all of its cares and all of its struggles and loves and heartache, just as it is, really matters.” (18:19) — Tim Freke
• On Evolving Spiritual Thought:
  • “What I think we need now is a radically new form of spirituality… it needs to be a post-scientific spirituality.” (21:47) — Tim Freke
• On the Individual’s Value:
  • “What you bring to God is you. And what you’re doing right now is forming you. And what you bring into that communion is everything you have become.” (82:02) — Tim Freke
• On Service and Connection:
  • “Your great delight becomes being of service. And that may be going out and doing some grand thing, but it may be just smiling at the person you bought your milk from.” (93:35) — Tim Freke

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• The Deep Awake Experience & Early Awakening: 04:52–09:19
• Midlife and Spiritual Perspective: 09:19–16:45
• Game vs. Seriousness: The Reality of Human Experience: 17:43–21:14
• Evolution as Spiritual Foundation: 21:47–29:33
• Reincarnation and Identity: 29:33–38:26
• Collective Super-Intelligence/God as Emergent: 41:25–47:12
• The Limits of Spiritual Language: 47:12–51:07
• The Courage to Revise Beliefs: 55:07–67:22
• Integration over Dogma: 69:27–76:12
• The True Purpose of Ego: 76:12–81:17
• Every Individual and Life Matters: 82:02–93:59
• A Call for Greater Understanding: 94:15–96:16

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Conclusion

This engaging dialogue between Alex Ferrari and Tim Freke encourages listeners to:

• Treasure the reality of being human;
• Hold beliefs lightly and pursue ongoing growth;
• Value personal and collective evolution;
• Recognize the essential contribution each individual makes to the whole;
• Integrate wisdom from all traditions;
• Engage in compassionate, open-minded dialogue with others.

As Tim eloquently summarizes:
“We need to understand each other not from our own perspective but from the perspective of the other... and find a way to turn enemies into friends.” (94:54)

For those yearning to deepen their spiritual understanding, this episode offers a map — not of arrival, but of courageous exploration.

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Find more about Tim Freke:

• timfreke.com (for retreats, podcasts, community)
• YouTube: Tim Freke PodBook “Why Your Life Really Matters”

Explore Next Level Soul:

• Next Level Soul Podcast

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Transcript

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[Alex Ferrari]

Welcome to Next Level Soul, the place where we deep dive into the mysteries of existence, uncover hidden layers of consciousness and explore the journey of the soul. I'm your host Alex Ferrari and every week we sit down with the world's leading spiritual teachers, mystics, psychologists, scientists and truth seekers to Illuminate the path towards awakening. Here we ask questions that truly matter. Why are we here? Where are we going? And how do we elevate our lives, our purpose and our consciousness to the next level? This is a space for transformation, a space for expansion, A space to remember who you really are. So take a deep breath, open your mind, and prepare to step into your next level soul. Now, if you're ready to take your spiritual journey to the next level, explore Next Level Soul tv. Our streaming platform filled with exclusive movies, docs, original shows, transformative series, guided meditations, channeling sessions, audiobooks and deep spiritual teachings you won't find anywhere else. New content drops every week, helping you expand your consciousness and live from your highest potential. Start your journey today at Next LevelSoul TV. The views, opinions and statements expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the beliefs or positions of Next Level Soul, its host, or any of the companies they represent. Now let's dive into today's episode. I like to welcome to the show Tim Freak Man. How you doing, Tim?

[Tim Freke]

I'm doing very well. Nice to be here.

[Alex Ferrari]

Oh, pleasure to meet you. My friend. You are calling from from England, My new favorite second home. My new favorite second home, London. I love London. I love England, but I love as well. I went to a whole bunch.

[Tim Freke]

Well, it's mutual. I love the US and Texas particularly, actually.

[Alex Ferrari]

We have a. We have some good barbecue here. Some good barbecue. Not. Not as much. The barbecue over in London. I didn't see a whole lot of barbecue joints.

[Tim Freke]

He kind of need the weather to go with barbecue, don't you think?

[Alex Ferrari]

Yeah, barbecue is not really for the gloomy cold. Not so much. Not so much. But. But your work's been pretty interesting, Tim. I've been following your work for a little while now and your approach to spirituality is. Is pretty remarkable and to the self in specifically. But my first question I wanted. I want to dive into the deep end of the pool with you. Is great when you strip away the titles. Philosopher, author, teacher. Who are you when you're alone with yourself?

[Tim Freke]

Oh, what a fantastic question to start with, Alex. I love that question. I love that question because that's where I always want to start. You've come just straight to the place that I always want to start, which is. Hello, I'm Tim. I'm 67 years old. I'm going to die. Life is beautiful and horrible and everything in between and I want to live it to the full and I want to know what it is as best as I can. And I want to be able to approach my death feeling like I've done my best, or if that's too ambitious, I've done my best to do my best. And everything else comes from that, that. That's why I've ended up drawn to spirituality, because it seemed to offer the best chance to do all of that. But I'm also interested in the whole everything, you know, I'll just. Just desperately curious and it's been such a ride and, and here I am in my 60s and it feels like someone's hit the accelerator. It's all increasing.

[Alex Ferrari]

So isn't it amazing though, as you get older, that does happen? I mean, when I was in my 20s, 30s, and 40s, it was very. It's been the slow progression of speed and intensity in the spiritual side of my life and, and it seems like now that I'm in my 50s, it's. It's just ramping up. You're absolutely right. If you're open to it, and not for everybody, but if you're open to it, definitely does. So. So let me. Let's go back then to the moment in your life when your understanding of reality completely broke and you can never come back. What was that moment for you?

[Tim Freke]

Yeah, I was 12 years old. I was sitting on a hill overlooking this kind of small little town in the southwest of England where I grew up. And ever since I can remember, I've always had a profound sense of how mysterious it is to be alive. It felt like life was this enormous question and that there must be an enormous answer because it's such an enormous question. And sitting on that little hill, I was taking my dog for a walk and looking at all of the grown ups rushing around in the town below me, pretending they knew what was going on, when it was absolutely clear to me that none of them did. And wondering why they were all pretending or why they were ignoring the big question, why no one was. You know, they all seem worried about trivia. And something happened. And I experienced what I now call being deep awake for the first time. So it's a familiar shift. I'm sure many people listening will go, oh yeah, I know what that is. I've had it. Where suddenly I was. Suddenly my whole perception of what exists was transformed in that there was a profound. Well, the biggest thing was the love, Alex. That was the thing that really hit me as a kid was this enormous whole universe is pulsating with love. How did I miss that? And a profound sense of connection. Now I'd say oneness, perhaps. Or communion along with it, all the colors, brighter, all this, the things which many people experience. And because I had no context to understand that in I'd. I had, the ideas were available to me. So I'd. I'd been to church when I was younger, I'd probably stopped by then, I can't remember. And I picked up ideas there. And at school I'd heard that God is love. And so my natural assumption was, oh, wow, this is, this is God then. And it was God. And so I now, of course, it opens up huge questions as what the hell that means to say it's God. And that I've been working on ever since. And I'm working on now more than ever. But that was the start. And then from that, from that profound sense that, oh, I see, all of my questions felt they were resolved into this experience. And so I was left with, okay, what was that? How do I get back to that? And that's ever since really I've been going, right, how, how do I find it, how do I deepen it? And because of my nature, I don't know why I'm like it, how do I share it? So the very first thing I did when I came down the hill was write. And I still have the writing. And so I was off on that journey. And then that led me to write far too many books and to do everything I'm doing.

[Alex Ferrari]

So, Tim, let me ask you, because you, you've been on this rock a little longer than I have, and so you're ahead of, you're ahead of me on the road by, by a little bit. But something has been happening to me lately and I'd love to hear your perspective on it where. And I don't know if it's a natural progression as you get older. You know, I just hit, I just hit 51. I'm 51 right now. I'm going to be 52 this year. And it seems that when I hit my 50s, things started to shift very dramatically. Now I know that I don't have a Porsche, I'm not dating a 20 year old, I'm not having a midlife crisis by any stretch. But it is a form of a midlife crisis, but a spiritual one for me. And it's unique because of the nature of my work and what I do all the time. I live and breathe and talk about this stuff all the time. Death and, and awakening and spirituality and frequencies and all of these things. But I started to shift a little bit differently in the way that I do approach the world. I, I look at everything much more as a game. Even though there are stakes in this game, but just the same as Mario would have stakes of a turtle biting him and killing him in. In Super Mario Brothers, there are stakes for the player playing the game. But as I'm walking through things, I just started to realize I'm like, well, you know, if I, at best case scenario, I'm halfway through this game, at best case scenario, let's say I'm going to live over 100, which, hey, God knows, maybe I will, but in. But if not, I'm over halfway through, you know, if I just do the normal death rate of, of humanity, especially here in America. So that gives you perspective. It changes the perspective of everything for me, at least for me. So is my question to you is, is this a natural progression or is this just something very specific? It's a case by case basis. I mean, I obviously in the spiritual space, I mean, in the spirit people who are in the spiritual space and, and, and think about these things. This is a shift for me. If you're just, you know, not, you know, not doing things like this or not even thinking about spirituality, just living your life, this is not going to be something that you're going to be doing deep thoughts about, but I just love to hear your thoughts about it. For someone who has been on the spiritual path and is ahead of me, you know, a bit than I am now.

[Tim Freke]

Yeah. Older at least. So, yeah, I think there's a. I think every human life regardless, has a certain shape to it, which is a process of maturing and heading to death, and that there's an archetypal journey that unfolds underneath each individual journey, but each individual is quite unique, so it's a different version. And then if you engage with the more what I would call the more emergent levels of reality, the spiritual levels, then it often takes on a different character. The.

[Alex Ferrari]

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[Tim Freke]

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[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show.

[Tim Freke]

The recognition of death is huge, absolutely huge. So it's hard for me to respond personally because I kind of engaged with it very, very young. I worked with people that were dying. I sought out death because it felt absolutely the only way that I could come to understand what life was. So that hasn't changed. Although I am very aware that it's closer now than it's ever been. I mean, it could be today, you know, but it's closer. And so I think these things do happen. And 50 is a really great age. I mean, my. My suspicion, Alex, is that your unique journey has elements of this archetypal journey, especially the spiritual archetypal journey, and then it'll be unique to you. So one shouldn't go by that too much, but that at 50 you're feeling if you. Hearing you say that, as a man who's that little bit older, just feels like, oh, great. That sounds good. That sounds exactly right. I'm in the spirit of the honesty, which you started this conversation. I'm hesitant personally about the game thing because. Do you have family?

[Alex Ferrari]

Yes, of course.

[Tim Freke]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, it's like the. All of that. That kind of. To me now, the. One of the big transitions that happened in my life when I was about 40, I guess, was I had family, and then suddenly a whole load of things that I believe spiritually just went out the window. A whole load more have gone out since I've been 60. And so my views now are utterly different to where they were before in so many ways. But one of the things is, I completely get what you're saying, and. And there's something really valuable about it. There's a lightness, there's an ability to engage, and. But there's also. I prefer the sense of. I can see what is and isn't important because some of it really matters. And so this part of me that when I think of, say, my daughter as an example, and I go, yeah, it's a kind of a game. It's like, no, no, it really isn't.

[Alex Ferrari]

I understand what you. I understand you're trying to say, so

[Tim Freke]

there's a language which gets used in spirituality, which I feel a bit like, no, don't. Let's not do that. Let's just go. I can tell the difference between what matters and what is, is less important.

[Alex Ferrari]

I understand what you mean. I always like to use the analogy more of a movie and different characters playing different roles and interaction with those and how they affect each other. But when you're watching a movie, there is a level of game, a gamification of it. But I understand what you mean. Not to lessen and not to devalue it and not to take it for granted. Like a game. Like, oh, it's just. I'll just restart again.

[Tim Freke]

Exactly. And also, it's like you. If you go back to some of my. My books, one of the things that happened to me, Alex, is I have to come out. I've had to come out and go, you know, I've written 35 books, and in 34 of them, there's a whole load of ideas I don't think. Right. Which was a bit of a. It was a bit of a. Okay, can I. I'm going to have to do this. So there's a flavor for me now. And, you know, again, the Movie. I get it. You'll find it in my books. You'll find that analogy. Or a dream is another analogy. I used a lot, a lot. As I've come into my 60s now, it feels like, no, it's not a dream, it's not a movie. It's the experience of being human. That's what it is. It's not like anything. It's the experience of being human. And that human adventure and all of its cares and all of its struggles and loves and heartache, just as it is, really matters. And it makes us what we are. And that is the spiritual journey. And anything we do to take us away from it is a loss, actually. To look at your life and go, it's just a dream. That's a loss to go, it's like a movie. Yeah, but it's a loss. What it is this, you know, I'm trying to get at. So I kind of want to. I've reshaped how I've. The analogies that I've been drawn to. To try and capture that sense of how human it is, what we're in.

[Alex Ferrari]

Yeah. I think it's innately human to try to create some sort of structure in one way, shape or form, whatever that is. So we use game, use a movie, we use a play. Shakespeare, yes, Very famously said his. A fellow. A fellow. A fellow Englishman said that, you know, life is just a stage and we are all just actors on it. So, so on. I get, I get that. I get. But I understand deeply what you're saying.

[Tim Freke]

The thing that it does is that without noticing it, because it's done for good reasons, and I did it for good reasons. But what it does is it makes it. It goes, this isn't really real. And there's a lot of spirituality which does that. This is not real. You're not real. It's all a kind of illusion. And what's happened for me is I've wanted to turn that completely upside down and go, no, this is real. We're in something real and we're in something significant. And. And we shouldn't. We shouldn't be drawn by spirituality into anything which takes us away from. From that. That's. That's where I'm at. That's where I've kind of arrived at the moment at 67, it's like, no, this is. Actually, I'm not quite 67 yet. I mustn't age myself more than I am. That's not a good idea.

[Alex Ferrari]

66, you know, but. But it's. It's funny that. I mean the, I mean the whole, the, the old Hindu idea of Maya or the dreams or I think the Aborigines call it the great dream, that there's this an illusion and there is a truth to that. I get it. But I understand at a very deep level what you're saying is like you're here and this is something very, very important or else you wouldn't be here. You won the lottery just to be here.

[Tim Freke]

Absolutely right. And so maybe this is a chance to sort of head into the philosophy that I've been sharing recently in my, my, my, my book behind me Soul Story, which is fairly old now but. But in my pod book, which is a kind of love child of a pod. Pod book. Sorry, a love child of a book and a podcast, it's videos and audio on. So I can give it away and what I'm exploring there, Alex, and I know it's. Well, it's new and I. And I'm drawn to it is one way of getting it is I feel we need to turn spirituality the right way up. And it's quite a radical shift, but it's not meant to dismiss the past. Quite the opposite. I couldn't have come to it unless I'd written books on all. Just about every spiritual tradition, I should think at least one book. And what I mean by that is everything evolves. But spirituality is a little bit obsessed with the past and with the idea that, you know, the ancients knew and we've forgotten and all of that stuff. Whereas you know, with brain surgery you don't go around going, let's, let's, let's go to Plato. He thought the brain was a cooling system for the blood. Don't you think we should. You know, it's like we don't do that, but with spirituality we do do that, you know, so, so what I. It seems to me that we, what we need now is a radically new form of spirituality and it need, it needs to be a post scientific spirituality. Science has arrived. It's changed everything. It means that you can be in Texas and I can be in England and we can talk. I mean it's a miracle. It's done all of this and spirituality really has not caught up. And the biggest thing that the scientific method has shown us, which is astonishing, is the universe is not a thing. It's a process. And it's a 14 billion year as far as we can tell right now, process of evolution that has gone from the simplest things you can possibly imagine to this. It's a, you know, a line which I love, which I stole actually from someone else I admire. But is 14 billion years ago, most of the universe, it was just hydrogen, just a gas. And that gas has become you and me. Talking about the universe, that, that is what we found out is astonishing. So what I want to suggest is that in the past, for absolutely understandable reasons, our ancestors, all of them east and west and the Aborigines, all of them, they had no idea that the universe was a process of evolution. They didn't, had, couldn't possibly guess that we know that. So we can understand spirituality in a new way. So the traditional spirituality is about some kind of fall. There's a supernatural thing. It could be God, it could be pure consciousness, it could be Brahman, something which has fallen into this illusion and needs to get back. And you're not really Alex, really. You're that you're a spark of God or you're a soul or you're already perfect or you're, you're something else. You're not Alex. And you've got confused. And if you could stop thinking you were Alex, everything would be all right. And don't worry, you'll get home eventually. This is, I'm, you know, I'm doing a kind of caricature of it, but that's essentially the message spiritual. The reality is supernatural and it's fallen into this dense natural world.

[Alex Ferrari]

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello. Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I recently spoke with IBM's new director of research, Jake Mbetta. We discussed his vision for the future of quantum computing at IBM Research.

[IBM Researcher]

What we always do is answer, what is the future of computing? Whether it's coming up with new algorithms, coming up with better AI, coming up with quantum, or coming up with just how do different accelerators go together? It's our DNA. To answer the question of what is the future?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Isn't it a perfect problem for IBM because you kind of need to have a legacy of building stuff.

[IBM Researcher]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Building actual physical machines.

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah. It's why I came to IBM. I wanted the experience, the culture of building hard things that others have not done before.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Where do you imagine we are in the timeline of this technology? There will come a point when it will mature, right?

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My cell phone is a mature technology at this point. How far away from that point?

[IBM Researcher]

With Kanto by 2029, we'll build the first fault tolerant quantum computer that is one that can run a very, very large, large problem.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn how IBM is building the future of computing, visit IBM.com quantum

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show.

[Tim Freke]

What I've been exploring is to go no, no, no. That's the pre evolutionary understanding we need to turn that it's, it's all good. Everything that spirituality is exploring, survival of death, the existence of a super intelligence, the magic of life, all real. It's just we got it the wrong way up. We haven't fallen from anywhere, which is actually a really negative view falling into illusion. Actually we're growing up into something. And that what spirituality is exploring is the most emergent level of one process of evolutionary emergence through which everything has come into form. One process of forming that's started with physics, biology, psyche, soul. And that's the domain of spirituality. So it's, it's like, yeah, spirituality, it's really important. It just needs a radical shift to put it the right way up. And it will all fall into place. And how it meshes with everything else we know about the universe will suddenly start to become, become obvious.

[Alex Ferrari]

So when you're saying the. I agree with you. I don't, I don't, I don't agree with the fallen. We didn't fall anywhere. We're not, we're not Lucifer. We didn't fall from, from the heavens for being a bad boy, if you will. I, this is my belief, which again makes the most sense after as much research and stuff I've done over the years, is that we as a soul on the other side choose to come down to learn certain lessons and to evolve by going through these lessons, by going through this very dense, very dense school of education. And we choose what we kind of come across in many ways. Because I don't know about you, but I have only learned the biggest lessons I've learned in life is because of overcoming adversity, overcoming struggle in one way, shape or form. And as I continue to walk this path that makes the most sense to me, to the point where we eventually come, eventually we go back to where we came from, but we have evolved to another level. Does that make sense at all?

[Tim Freke]

So I think what you're saying does make sense, but I want to see it within an evolutionary view. So what I think the turning up the right way goes. Matter has become alive, astonishing. But that's what's happened. Life has given. Has evolved sentience and consciousness. And then this, the psyche, the area that you're understanding the meaning of the funny words I'm saying. So I'm making these funny sounds on the biological level and you're understanding their meaning on the level of the psyche. Psyche is the Greek word for soul. They mean exactly the same thing. They're both all these words, soul, mind, psyche. These are words from different linguistic roots that were all evolved to talk about the obvious, that we are experiencing two levels of reality. The level of senses and the level of the psyche or soul. That's what everyone's experiencing all the time. What I wanted like to suggest is that in that evolutionary process which you see miracle after miracle after miracle, as it were, that the psych. The system has. Has evolved to survive the death of the body. Now having done that, I think it's very, very plausible that it is coming back into a relationship with the biological form, what gets called reincarnation. And that there may be all sorts of choices made by some, maybe for others it's just like falling asleep and you don't make any choices. Maybe there's. There's all sorts of levels with that. Who knows? So what you're saying makes sense, but within an evolutionary picture. So yes, now we are a psyche or a soul which can survive the death of the body. That's re. Engaging with a biological level and learning things and going through things, but not because that's what we already were, that has evolved also. It's not like there's some supernatural thing that just exists. The radical idea I'm trying to explore, Alex, is what if everything is part of one process of forming? So the arising of the soul is also part of one process of forming which has been going on for all this time. And the power of that vision is its elegance, that you don't have to just accept that anything just exists. You can start from something really simple, like the Taoists do. Like the one is also two yin and yang, the sim, the bit, like the bit of. In a computer, the simplest piece of information. And from the one as two or relationship has come everything from that information, everything. And the soul is a very, very emergent level of that. So in one way, that accommodates all the views that you were expressing there and goes, yep, should take that seriously. But in another way, it profoundly changes it. Because it goes, that is true. Not because you already are this something other, this other supernatural thing. It goes, no, what you are is a strand in this evolving, forming, and that has learned to survive the death of the body. Am I making any sense?

[Alex Ferrari]

You are. You are. I want to clarify a couple of ideas there. So the. The idea of the soul as an evolutionary track, I get 100%. It wasn't that we were, you know, Tim, Soul Tim and Soul Alex were just chilling at the bar on the other side and going, man, you know what I wouldn't mind doing? I gotta go down, learn about this, this and this. And I could do it slowly up here, but down there it's like, it goes really quick, but it's gonna be really intense. And then I'm going to go down. Then we both come down here, you know, at the bar on the other side, we'll call it Bar Cafe Heaven. At Cafe Heaven, you and I, you're like, listen, I'm going to go up ahead of you about, you know, 17, 16 years, 15 years. And then we're going to have a conversation later on and we'll talk about this. It'll be fun and be like, oh, great, I'll see you. I'll see you in 2026, you know, and. And we come down, we do our thing, we learned, and then when we pass, we've now we've definitely evolved more as a soul by going through this experience. I do agree with you that I don't believe that on the other side, we were always just sold Tim and Soul Alex. I think there was an evolutionary process even on that side that we start at a certain point, and then we grow and we grow and grow. And that's very aligned with a lot of spiritual ideas from multiple different cultures around the world. Does that all jive with you at this point?

[Tim Freke]

Kind of. But I suspect we still might be saying something kind of different. So let's Go for identity. What is identity? What makes anything a thing? What makes the plant? That plant that's behind me. What makes you, you, me, me? Because if we can get that. Now, the traditional idea of spirituality is that your identity is something supernatural, a spark of God or pure consciousness that's got lost or a soul, or all various. Various different versions of that. What I want to suggest is, is how can I do this Quickly? I want to talk about time. Can. I need to talk about a few things, if that's all right. Alex, Let me talk about time.

[Alex Ferrari]

Sure.

[Tim Freke]

I think we. The, The, The. The. The universe is a process and that therefore we can understand that it's a process. That's time. And I want to suggest that time doesn't pass, it doesn't disappear. It accumulates. I think you spoke to Rupert Sheldrake. Yes, yes. Did you speak to Rupert? Yes, I love Rupert. And this is. This is in. This is in large part inspired by Rupert, that time doesn't pass, it accumulates. That's my phrase for it, but he's saying something very similar. And it doesn't just accumulate.

[IBM Researcher]

It.

[Tim Freke]

It runs the present. So we'll talk about that another time. But right now I just want to go look, so the past accumulates. So you're made of the past. Everything is. And it hasn't gone anywhere. It's implicit in this moment. Everything you've ever been is implicit in this moment. That's what I'm meeting. And everything I've ever been. All of my relationships with the universe are implicit in this moment. So what you are then is a process. So that process has emerged at some point. Maybe it arose with Alex, maybe it rose many, many lives before Alex. But nevertheless it arose at some point in this evolutionary process. Same with Tim. And that process is continuing. And that process continues after the death of the body because the psyche is able to keep functioning on the level of the imaginal. And then it reengages. I call it a psychosymbiosis. It comes into another symbiotic relationship with a biological system. And then it continues, and it does that, and it does that. But the whole thing is arising from the one tree of evolution. It's nothing outside, no souls, no sparks, no God at the beginning. That's the big shift for me. And we can. We maybe. Maybe we can talk about that as part of it. I don't know whether you want me to carry on or whether to break with that bit, but the whole vision is not something outside, not the divinity which has got lost or sparked and can become all these different sparks. But the other way around, that, that thing I experienced when I was 12, that's not the source. It's the leading edge of this one process, which is why it feels so amazing.

[Alex Ferrari]

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello. Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast smart talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna, and I asked him, how can companies use AI to its full, fullest potential to create smarter business?

[IBM Executive]

My one advice to them Pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive.

[Alex Ferrari]

Yeah.

[Tim Freke]

Wow.

[IBM Executive]

So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology, is getting people to accept that there's a different way to things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smart talks.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show.

[Tim Freke]

So the whole process, it's where it's it's the fruit, not the root. It's the sky, not the ground. It's where it's been heading. So that the whole universe is, is flowering into that super intelligence. Because that's the next level on in soul. And, and what I'm exploring and is that in that experience of communion which I had when I was 12 and I've been coming back to and taking people to in my events and just seen so much of it and that amazing, beautiful thing, actually what's happening is that we are in a sense forming that super intelligence. Because the pattern which has gone throughout, throughout the whole evolutionary process is really obvious. If you look at your body, somehow lots of individual cells came together to form something beyond any one of them individually, which is this multicellular body. And my sense is that's what's happening on the level of psyche or soul, that when we come into that state of communion, we begin to form a super system, a super soul. And so the great mind is not the source. The great mind is actually the leading edge and it's made of all the individual minds. The super intelligence is lots of individual intelligences which are coming into communion, which is what we experience in these mystical states. And that in that we are contributing to the emergence of this divine next level.

[Alex Ferrari]

So what you're saying is that essentially you and I are both cells in the great body of the super intelligence.

[Tim Freke]

I'm saying we can be weak if, if we come, if we come into these deep awake states. When we, when we, when we follow that, the most profound spiritual communion, we begin. We, we. You know, there's a, there's a phrase which I thought, ah, I can use that and turn it around. In the Christian tradition they talk about the communion of souls around God. And what struck me was, ah, no, the communion of souls is God. That's what is God. So that by coming into that communion, we are creating this super intelligence, we're creating this bigger thing or we're contributing towards it our own little.

[Alex Ferrari]

We're not saying different things. We're not saying different things at all. I agree. No, no, I'm not. You're not. We're not saying different things at all. I true. I think it's just we're coming at it from two different flavors. But it's. I agree with you 110%. We are one. As, as the concept of the One is. We are all contributing to the One. We are all connected at a very deep level. The illusion of separation, is that an illusion in my, in my point of view? But we are all contributing to the super consciousness, the super intelligence, the. The. The oneness, the God, whatever term it is.

[Tim Freke]

But.

[Alex Ferrari]

But we're part of that process. We're not like there's a guy in a white, White beard sitting on a. On a chair somewhere going. And then we're all just kind of chilling around like, tell me the story of what happened when you were Tim. Tell me the story of what happened with. No, no, no. We are that. And, and just us living our lives as an. Evolving as we are, are kind of contributing to the greater One. Does that. Is that make sense?

[Tim Freke]

It does. As long as. This is great to be able to push this, Alex, I really appreciate it. I just need to check what you mean by the One, because here's what. If you look to most of my books, I talk about the One, but in the past, what I meant by the One really wasn't the One. What I meant was a one something. And really it was already God, that was for me. So the One already had intentions. It wanted to know it. It's a mythic one. It was the presence of consciousness. It was. Now when I say, yeah, it all starts with the One. I mean the One, like when you talk about in maths, one. Something undivided, something which has no qualities. What. Something with the potential to form into anything, but which itself is nothing. And that potential to become anything has become this and maybe many other things. So if we mean by that the One, then yeah, there's a oneness of. Let's call it the Oneness of being, which is being everything. And then it's arrived at the point where it's conscious, arrived at the point where it's soul, and then arriving at the point where it's this super intelligence which we experience as love.

[Alex Ferrari]

Tim, we are definitely in deep waters in this conversation, which I absolutely love. I love this because we're exploring very deep questions from different angles. But I think, again, I think we're. We're not saying different things. I think there might be a couple little tweaks here, but I'm not anything. Any time I'm hearing you speak, I'm not going, well, this guy's wrong. No, no, I'm like, yeah, he's right. I know. It's like this makes all the sense of the world, you know? No, no, I've had those conversations before. I'm like, no, that's not the way it works.

[Tim Freke]

He's just nuts.

[Alex Ferrari]

No, he's just a little. No, no, I don't. I agree with you. 100%. It's just right, it's. We're now getting into semantics of language, which is. That is in my opinion, the sign that we're getting close. Because when language starts to break down, that means we're going into a territory where language is. The limitations of language are becoming more and more prevalent in what? In our.

[Tim Freke]

You just have to be clearer then. You know, we just need to be very clear.

[Alex Ferrari]

Yeah. And it's. We start. That's why a lot of the ancient truths are so simple.

[Tim Freke]

Yes.

[Alex Ferrari]

So basic. I mean Jesus, Buddha, the basic, basic ideas because they are the most powerful. When we start getting into these areas where we're going to. I feel like we're on the edge of the universe right now. We're like kind of in the outskirts where you could barely see any light at all. That's when it starts to get interesting because we're starting getting to an area now that is. You were trying to explain the unexplainable in the current language abilities that we have. I don't know how much experience you have with this, but I've spoken to about 150 near death experiencers, people who have died in Quebec.

[Tim Freke]

Yeah. I think I was one of the very first members of the International association of Near Death Studies in this country when I was in.

[Alex Ferrari]

Oh, really? So by, by speaking to so many of them, they speak about this ability on the other side that you're kind of tapped in. I call it the cloud. You're tapped into the cloud and you're able to get anything you want, any information, and you'll understand it instantly. And there's no language. It's a knowing. And I don't know if you've ever had this experience in meditations or any of your spiritual experiences when you've been able to transcend the mind and actually just know that, oh, I know this is happening right now. I know that has happened. And it's very unexplainable with language. You just, you just have a knowing about something you're seeing, something you're experiencing, whether in a meditation or in a spiritual experience. You just know. And I think we are now getting onto the edge of that. We're now like, we're trying, we're pushing. And maybe it's just. Maybe it's me and my density of not being able to understand exactly what you mean, but I feel it that we're both talking about this in a similar fashion. It's just a couple of nuances in the language, but I don't Disagree with anything that you're saying, to be honest with you. Does that make all. Does that make any sense?

[Tim Freke]

It does, yeah. I mean, so that gnosis is something which has been very central to my life. And certainly it seems to me, we sense with the soul, we sense with the psyche. And that is often where we have these experiences where we know, but we don't know how we know. I personally think it's worth finding out how we know because then we can communicate about it. And if you work at it, you can. So, yeah, I absolutely know what you mean. And that's certainly what happened to me when I was a kid. You know, I just. It happened. I knew something and I didn't. I didn't know how to express it. One of my favorite things that ever got sent to me years and years ago to buy a lovely young girl who came to one of my events and had a very profound experience and arrived all dressed in black and very depressed at the end. Just went, I'm a convert to something. And it's like, yeah, me too. Yeah, I'm a convert to something. That's exactly right. So I completely get that. So, but. But the overall vision that I'm wanting to convey for your consideration, Alex, it's a development of all traditional spirituality, but it does turn it on its head. And it. So it's kind of like, I guess you could say it's kind of Taoism at the beginning and theism or Christianity at the end or perhaps or Buddhism at the beginning.

[Alex Ferrari]

And yeah, it starts one way and the other.

[Tim Freke]

It starts with the void.

[Alex Ferrari]

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello. Hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I recently spoke with IBM's new director of research, Jake Mbeta. We discussed his vision for the future of quantum computing at IBM Research.

[IBM Researcher]

What we always do is answer, what is the future of computing? Whether it's coming up with new algorithms, coming up with better AI, coming up with quantum, or coming up with just how do different accelerators go together? It's our DNA to answer the question of what is the future?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Isn't it a perfect problem for IBM because you kind of need to have a legacy of building stuff, building actual physical machines.

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah, it's why I came to IBM. I wanted the experience, the culture of building hard things that others have not done before.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Where do you imagine we are in the timeline of this technology? There will come a point when it will mature, right?

[IBM Executive]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My cell phone is a mature technology at this point. How far are we from that point?

[IBM Researcher]

With quantum by 2029 we'll build the first fault tolerant quantum computer that is one that can run a very very large, large problem.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn how IBM is building the future of computing, visit IBM.com quantum

[Commercial Announcer]

Ever feel like your bedroom's running out of space? Here's the good news. You don't have to sell your favorite things to make space with IKEA Bedroom storage solutions. Dressers, wardrobes, full closet systems, even storage boxes you can hold hold onto it all your vintage band tees keep em those limited edition sneakers they stay. And yes, there's room for your childhood teddy bear too. Need to organize a walk in closet? The PAX wardrobe lets you customize shelves, rails and compartments so every item has a home. Too many clothes and not enough drawers. The storklinta six drawer dresser is perfect for denim sweaters and everyday essentials. And if the kids are taking over your space space trofast storage boxes make sorting toys and art supplies easy and cleanup fun. From primary suites to playrooms, IKEA has storage options that adapt to your life and help you keep what matters most. Don't sell anything you love. Store it instead. Shop IKEA Bedroom Storage today at IKEA US Bedroomstorage Altiera Los cinquenta de habia

[Tim Freke]

prendido algunas cosas com el valor de

[Commercial Announcer]

la familia la importancia del trabajo.

[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show.

[Tim Freke]

It starts with the 1 as 2. The DAO is empty, but it is the mother of all things. And the essence of the dao is relationship, yin and yang. It's a bit of information. It is the simplest thing you can imagine because what we're in is a process of forming. It's the realization of ever more emergent possibilities based. So each moment is that. Here's another one. It's never happened before, but it contains everything that's happened so far. Oh, here's another one. Everything we've ever experienced is that. So that simple idea, one process of forming allows us to potentially understand how everything fits together. I mean, obviously it's just a sketch, but it is a sketch. And it then refashion spirituality as the most emergent level of the natural, not something which you could see in any way as supernatural, including that experience of a super intelligence that gets called God.

[Alex Ferrari]

I want to. Let's shift gears for a second.

[IBM Researcher]

Let's do it.

[Alex Ferrari]

You mentioned before that you've written 34 books and a lot of the stuff that you've written before you're just like, yeah, I was just going through my process. Some of it, Some of it. Some of it, of course, of course. But this. That's a very interesting thing that I think needs to be dug into a little bit. Because so many people, I think as a human being, we want to set our belief system, our programming that we're born as a. I wouldn't call it a blank slate because I think there is some programming at the factory that comes in that you have certain skills and certain abilities and so on, but we're pretty much a blank slate almost. When we come in and we're depending on where we come in, we start getting programmed by our. By a reality that we're experiencing. Rich, poor, abuse, love, community, country, religion, all of that stuff starts to get programmed into us. And then once we set our belief system and we set the rules of our understanding of reality. Because this is crazy down here, Tim. This is nuts. I say down here because I'm a Catholic. I was a Catholic, so I'm a recovering Catholic. So I always say down here, you know, so I could go with that.

[Tim Freke]

That's fine.

[Alex Ferrari]

So being in this reality is not easy. It's kind of insane. And all we're trying. It's hard. And we're. All we're trying to do is make sense of all of it. So once we have a framework that works for us, many people will die, will fight to the death. And I'm not. I'm not just giving an example. That's reality. People fight to the death for the stories that.

[Tim Freke]

Right.

[Alex Ferrari]

For the stories that they believe. And if they. It takes a special kind of person to go, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I could evolve a little bit, you know, things I believed in my twenties, I do not believe in my fifties, and vice versa. So why should our understanding of the reality that we live in be any different? It should be shifting.

[Tim Freke]

Yeah.

[Alex Ferrari]

So as. So as you have been going through these experiences over the course of your career in your life, writing different books and then going back to read a book that you wrote and go, God, I was daft. Oh, my God. I just. That wasn't right. I was. I was so off. But that's what I knew at the time. Can you explain to people or give advice on how to process that? Because obviously you. At least from my point of view, you're a very open person. Person. You're a very curious person. You're trying to understand things, but you're very fluid, at least from this conversation, I understand. I can get that from you, you're not locked in, you can move a little bit. There's a. There's give where most people tend to lock in. Even when they find like oh it's Buddhism, oh it's Christianity, oh it's New age, oh it's crystals, oh it's whatever it is, you know, it's Wicca, whatever it is, they hold on and like this is the way because that's. It's kind of like the lifeboat in the ocean. It's kind of like the pole in the ocean that you can wrap your boat around in this storm that is life. So as you have been constantly been free flowing in the ocean and kind of going from island to island and into port to port. How. What advice do you have for people who when they hear this conversation, it's going to start to mess with them. It's going to start to shake the foundation of what they've built their life upon or their belief system upon. What do you say to people that are struggling with that right now and how can they become a little bit more free flowing? Because in my line of work doing what I do, I talk to so many different spiritual paths, philosophies, scientists, you know, rocket sciences, channelers, psychics. I talk to everybody trying to do what you're doing, figuring it out for myself and for the audience, goes along for the ride of it. But understanding like, oh that I like that part, like that part that make part makes sense to me.

[IBM Executive]

Let's.

[Alex Ferrari]

And I start to combine my world. But my world has changed dramatically in the last four years I've been doing this show from when I started to where I am right now talking to you. My worldview has changed from experience, but also from research, conversations and other things that I've come across. So a long question. How can.

[Tim Freke]

Great question, Alex.

[Alex Ferrari]

How can people adjust themselves?

[Tim Freke]

Okay, there's quite a few things I'd like to say. Let me see which of the important ones are. So firstly, I think what I've done in my own sweet life is kind of similar to what you're doing. But I did it in a pre Internet time. So what. What I did was go through all of that much more difficult in my day but and wrote books on all of these different spiritual traditions and I was working with the idea of the perennial philosophy. Oh look, there's something similar in all these traditions. People have experienced the thing I'm experiencing, that there's a state of oneness, that there's an enormous love, that life's full of meaning, death Isn't the end. Life can become dreamlike and magical, all of those things. And, oh, here. Here it is in China, here it is in India. Here it is in South America, you know, here I can take ayahuasca and I can experience it there. It's like all of these different things. So there was a long period of my life of writing lots of books on these different traditions, drawing out the similarities. And then probably I wrote a book which was an actual, genuine, real, international bestseller on Christianity called the Jesus Mysteries, which was about Gnosticism. And it had a very controversial idea in the heart of it, and it became a big best seller. That's when I was touring around Austin and places like that. And. And that. That became about finding that same commonality with inside Christianity which people often miss. That led me to. That was kind of the first phase, one which read a lot of books. And then I stepped back and thought, I don't want to write about history anymore. I want to write about what spirituality can become now. I want to do all these people I've written about, all my heroes. The reason I even know their names is because they changed it. Well, how does it need to change now? I should be concentrating on that. I should be. How can I say the perennial philosophy so clearly that people can experience it and get it and make it short and snappy and. And without blowing my own trumpet too loud. I think I did that. It led to a tiny little book called Lucid Living, using the analogy of life being a dream, in which I could express the perennial philosophy in something that you could read in an hour. It is a beautiful little book, and it's wrong. And that was the. I think I got it so clear for myself and I got so good at communicating it to other people that I saw what was wrong with it.

[Alex Ferrari]

You turned it, turned inside and turned inside out.

[IBM Executive]

Yeah.

[Tim Freke]

It led me to have to stop and revise it. It was coincided with the death of both my parents. I was very introspective. I was spending a lot of time around death. And I came. I started this. This radically evolutionary view started. And like, like you said, you know, like, so much things would come up, like, yeah, this feels like I should. This feels right. It feels strong, but doesn't make any sense. And then follow it, follow it, follow it. Now, if you have that, you don't need it to make sense. You can just. But if you're a writer or a philosopher, then your job is to make it make sense. My job is to say it to other people. So that, you know, my favorite thing, a lot of people say it to me, I love it, is they go, oh, you're saying what I've been trying to think, because that's my job. So if I can do that, that's marvelous. And that's led to a complete revision. So that's happened, whatever it was 12 years ago, and then the revision has just increased and it's been about revisioning how we understand these perennial states. So I would say to anyone, well, let me say this first two things. I don't want to take away anyone's faith, anyone's belief, anything. My biggest aspiration with an individual, any individual, is to do anything I can to help them have these spiritual experiences. That's it. I, I, the analogy I, I use is there's a moment you imagine everyone sees in black and white, and then there's a moment where you open your eyes and suddenly it's all in color. And the spiritual experience is like that. That's what happened to me when I was 12. I opened, I was living in black and white, opened my eyes, and it was all in color. And then it went. And it's like, what the hell was that? And how do I get that back? Since then, I've been focused primarily on experience and sharing experience with others and been around thousands of people who have come into color for the first time. That's my priority. I don't care what you believe. I don't care if you think it's an evolutionary universe, if you think God's a big man in the sky. Doesn't matter to me. That's absolutely central.

[Alex Ferrari]

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello. Hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I recently spoke with IBM's new director of research, Jake Gambetta. We discussed his vision for the future of quantum computing at IBM Research.

[IBM Researcher]

What we always do is answer, what is the future of computing? Whether it's coming up with new algorithms, coming up with better AI, coming up with quantum, or coming up with just how do different accelerators go together? It's our DNA to answer the question of what is the future?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Isn't it a perfect problem for IBM because you kind of need to have a legacy of building stuff.

[IBM Researcher]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Building actual physical machines.

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah. It's why I came to IBM. I wanted the experience, the culture of building hard things that others have not done before.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Where do you imagine we are in the timeline of this technology? There will come a point when it will mature, right?

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My cell phone is a mature technology at this point. How far are we from that point with quantum?

[IBM Researcher]

By 2029, we'll build the first fault tolerant quantum computer that is one that can run a very, very large, large problem.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn how IBM is building the future of computing, visit IBM.com quantum.

[Commercial Announcer]

Ever feel like your bedroom's running out of space? Here's the good news. You don't have to sell your favorite things to make space with Ikea Bedroom storage solutions. Dressers, wardrobes, full closet systems, even storage boxes. You can hold on to it all. Your vintage band tees, keep them. Those limited edition sneakers, they stay. And yes, there's room for your childhood teddy bear there too. Need to organize a walk in closet? The PAX wardrobe lets you customize shelves, rails and compartments so every item has a home. Too many clothes and not enough drawers. The Storklita six drawer dresser is perfect for denim sweaters and everyday essentials. And if the kids are taking over your space, trofast storage boxes make sorting toys and art supplies easy and cleanup fun. From primary suites to playrooms, IKEA has storage options that adapt to your life and help you keep what matters most. Don't sell anything you love. Store it instead. Shop IKEA Bedroom storage today at Ikea US Bedroomstorage.

[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show.

[Tim Freke]

If you do experience that, it becomes much easier because of the very gnosis that you've been talking about to evolve your ideas, because you're not relying on them. You've got something, you've got a genuine connection with something greater than yourself. And that opens up the possibility that you can go, is there a better way to understand this? And then when you understand it, in my experience, when you understand it better, the experience gets better. It shifts. It's not necessary, but it shifts. It. It becomes deeper, it becomes better, it becomes more emergent. And then. So I'm doing two things, I think, Alex. One is for individuals. I want to go, if it's working for you, you know, whatever gets you through the night. Good for you and I. And if I can help you, I will. But as well, it does make a difference. But as well, more importantly, culturally, collectively, we need a new spirituality. What we've got at the moment with all these little bubbles of people that don't really connect with each other and, you know, it's like a private thing. Oh, you think that, you think that, you know, whatever you think is fine, that's fine for individuals. But collectively, we need to be as rigorous with understanding this level of reality. As we go with understanding physics or biology. And it needs to be part of the one endeavor of understanding what the hell this is, because it's not separate from it. So my philosophy is aimed at those people who want to go, how can we. How can we understand all of this? How can we integrate our knowledge? How can we see spirituality in any way? And my hope is, if we can do that right, if we're willing to think clearly enough and ask deep enough questions, we can bring spirituality into the center of mainstream culture. Whereas at the moment, it's kind of an oddball periphery thing. And not so much in the States. It's bigger in the States, but here especially, you just want to go, look, this should be the very center of what we take seriously. And to do that, we need to sharpen up. Now, not everyone needs to, but those who are involved in what you're doing and what I'm doing, we need to.

[Alex Ferrari]

As you were talking, the image that came into my head was, you're. You're speaking as if you were Bruce Lee. And I'll explain what I mean by that.

[Tim Freke]

Okay? No one's ever said that to me before.

[Alex Ferrari]

Bruce Lee was not only obviously who he was, but he was also a great philosopher. He was a very deep, deep philosopher as well. And what he decided to do was. It's similar to what you're saying. He took all the martial arts that were all in their camps, like, I'm. The karate is the best. Kung fu is the best. Jujitsu, whatever. No, dina, jiu jitsu, but you know what I mean, all the different forms were out there. And he's like, no, you guys are all too dogmatic about all this stuff. And he started to pull the best from everything to create one unified idea of what a martial art could be, which is what has turned into mma, which is a mixed martial arts, which is a combination of all of it. Now, I'm using a violent example, but I think you'll. But it's an illustration of what I think you're trying to say is all of these different forms need to come into one. And look at. Now, if you look at the fighting styles, you know, before, people would argue, is karate better? Is kung fu better? Is jiu jitsu better? Is Is judo or aikido or all these forms? But now there's not a question anymore. Because when you mix them all together, not one of those individually stands up to a mixed martial artist who understands what they're doing. Because a mixed martial artist has taken the best of all of them, trained in all of them, and now combines all of those different art forms to do his one art form. So if we combined all the different elements of spirituality and all the schools of spirituality into one unified spiritual path, that can celebrate all the other ones. It's not distant. It's not taking and dismissing the other ones. It's celebrating them, but putting them all into one unified path. I think we would be so much more powerful. Does that make sense to you, Bruce? Yes, Bruce. Bruce.

[Tim Freke]

Yeah, it. It does, because you're talking about the East. I'm thinking Zen. Sure, you get bodies up Dharma, if he ever existed. But let's go with the myth. Body Dharma takes Buddhism to China, and Zen arises as a meeting of Taoism and Buddhism, and it becomes something new. That's the history. That's the history of everything. Every. I mean, Christianity, in my view, is the meeting of Judaism and Platonism or Pythagoreanism, you know, that's what's. You know, that's. Yeah, so. So that's what always happens. Now, here we are today, I suspect, on your bookshelf, like mine in front of me here. You've got the wisdom of the world. I can pick it all up on my phone within seconds.

[Alex Ferrari]

Absolutely.

[Tim Freke]

You know, it's. Everything is available. I can go online. I can hear any teacher speaking. I can. So what is that about? Surely what that asks of us, if we're inclined towards this doesn't. Everyone has got to do it, is to go. This is an age now not of pluralism only, but of integration. Now we need to see if we're living in one reality, which it seems we are. What, what, what. What is its nature? How's the best way to understand it? What's going on over there? How does that meet with this? And then how can we formulate it with. Also with the other things like, like I said, biology and physics and mathematics as well, for that matter. So that becomes the requirement of our age. So individually, whatever gets you through the night. Collectively, let's work together and let's be willing to push each other. I love this conversation. It's been very frank and fun, and we can move around and we go, try this, try this. Is that the same? Is that different? That's what we need to do. Because from that can come a whole new approach to spirituality which breaks with all of that precious potense where, you know, you have to be a certain way and talk in a certain tone of voice. And this idea of arriving at certain things and some people are spiritual well, they've arrived and it's like, let's leave all that behind. I feel now, you know, let's. Enough of that. Which goes, look, we're all together in this and let's work together to find the best way of experiencing it and understanding it.

[Alex Ferrari]

I, I think that the one thing I feel that is, is wonderful about our conversation right now. And I think it's something that's missing from conversations in every spectrum, politically, specifically, but that, but the term ego, which we're going to get into a little bit because I know you like to speak about the ego as not the enemy. But if you would have walked into this conversation with ego and I would have walked into this conversation with ego and I would have put my flag down that it has to be exactly the way it is. And you put your flag down. This is where we have. Why are we even having a conversation? But both of us came in very open to these conversations and as the conversation has progressed, we've kind of flowed with each other and it doesn't have to both flow in the exact same way. I'm learning a ton from this and I think you're learning as well from these point and it's just kind of this beautiful dance and that's what it should be. So can we talk a little bit about the ego and its place in this all? Because I do believe that the ego has. It is a tool, like you've said. I think it is something that most people misunderstand. You must crush the ego. No, no, it's. You need the ego. Without the ego. I don't do this podcast. You don't write 34 books. The ego is the one that pushed that through because it's ego to a certain, to a certain extent. So it is a tool. But when the ego goes out of control, like we see in our political parties around the world, it just is all about boistering and peacocking and all that kind of stuff and trying to like, I have to be right where I walk into every conversation saying I don't have to be right. Unless something is said so outlandish that it completely goes away from the story that I've told myself. That's when a conversation will be had. But generally speaking, I'm very open to different conversations, different points of view. So can you talk a little bit about the ego and what is so misunderstood about the ego and how we can truly use the ego for not only our day to day life, but our spiritual evolution?

[Tim Freke]

Yeah, I feel like I've been wrong so many times now I'm in the 60s. I'd have to be a complete idiot to think that I couldn't be wrong. Again,

[Alex Ferrari]

you obviously haven't seen our political parties over here,

[Tim Freke]

so. Yeah, well, I don't even know what people mean by the word ego. Or rather, I know they mean all sorts of different things Here. Here's the way I would approach it. Look, being egotistical, eg, thinking only of oneself, that's not a very attractive or helpful thing to do. And if you come into these awake states, there is an enormous love and a benevolence, a universal benevolence, which means you're not just thinking of yourself.

[Alex Ferrari]

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast Smart Talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna, and I asked him how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business?

[IBM Executive]

My one advice to them Pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive. Yeah, so we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology is getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smart talks.

[Commercial Announcer]

Ever feel like your bedroom's running out of space? Here's the good news. You don't have to sell your favorite things to make space with Ikea. Bedroom storage solutions, dressers, wardrobes, full closet systems, even storage boxes you can hold onto it all your vintage band tees keep em those limited edition sneakers they stay. And yes, there's room for your childhood teddy bear too. Need to organize a walk in closet? The PAX wardrobe lets you customize shelves, rails and compartments so every item has a home. Too many clothes and not enough drawers. The storklinta six drawer dresser is perfect for denim sweaters and everyday essentials. And if the the kids are taking over your space. Trofast storage boxes make sorting toys and art supplies easy and cleanup fun. From primary suites to playrooms, IKEA has storage options that Adapt to your life and help you keep what matters most. Don't sell anything you love. Store it instead. Shop IKEA Bedroom storage today at IKEA US Bedroomstorage Altiera Los Cinquenta diavias.

[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show.

[Tim Freke]

But you have to look after yourself as well. And you have your family to look after and your community look after. And that's. Right, that's how it should be. But you're not doing it at anyone else's expense and you really want things to be as good for everyone. You wish well to everyone. Because that's what comes from the recognition of oneness. And then really this idea of a negative ego. We don't need to. We don't need to labor it. I mean, the word actually just means the I, the I am. And you do get that idea in certain forms of spirituality, that the mere fact of thinking of yourself as an I is in the way. And I think that's profoundly mistaken. The way I would approach it, Alex, is to go, well, I have this. I made up this word because I couldn't find a word that did what I wanted to do, which is the word univigil. And in fact, the whole philosophy, I call it univigilism. Because what I think is happening is that we're evolving from individuals to what I call unividuals, where a uni vigil is an individual now conscious of unity with the universe. And that's the tradition. Now, the key thing is that that's an individual. The individual's not gone. In fact, the opposite. The individual has evolved into something greater, which includes and is the. So the individual becomes the foundation for the individual. And my hope is that we're birthing a new human and that's a uni vigil.

[Alex Ferrari]

Well, I mean, again, we'll go back to the analogy of the cells. Without the individual cells, we are not human. We can't. This is. I mean, bingo. Bingo is like without all of our cells inside. We have trillions of cells inside of us that are dying in trillions and trillions.

[Tim Freke]

Yeah.

[Alex Ferrari]

And dying and being born every second of every day. So without that combined combination of all those cells, it doesn't make Tim. It doesn't make Alex. But they are all individual cells that are helping the greater being. That is. Yes, but it's no lack. It's not no lack of. Without them, we have nothing. There has to be.

[Tim Freke]

Here, here's one. Sorry, Alex, this is so. I'm getting too enthusiastic because you've opened up Something which is one of my, literally my favorite ideas with near death experiences. It's a very common for people to have. Well, I've had numbers of people related to me, two or three just recently of the light, which is incredibly common, but also seeing like sparks rising and falling from the light. Now I think that that vision is, I think why we've ended up with a supernatural spirituality. Because I think people have had that vision and go, oh, the light's what exists and we fallen from it. What I'm suggesting is we're missing out. The rising up into it, which is actually the light is. We are each filaments that form the light. And then we fall away and we have a life and then we come back and we film the. And of course we can merge with it now too as well. We don't have to wait till you're dead. But what that does is it turns around a very negative view which goes, alex, you're just a drop in the ocean. You go back and you dissolve. And all the struggles of being Alex and your family and all your care, there's nothing. It just dissolves back into the one where you came from. And what. Which I hate, I hate that because it just goes, your life is meaningless. And I don't think that's right. What this says is you. What you bring to God is you. And what you're doing right now is forming you. And what you bring into that communion is everything you have become. And so, so the meaning of your life is just massive. It goes, look, this is your contribution to the arising of this beautiful, sublime super intelligence with which you get to be a part, which you get to commune.

[Alex Ferrari]

So this is, and this is something that's so important for people to understand. And I think that we get lost in it. Especially I always say the west, because that's my experience. But specifically I think that we all get. Many of us get lost in the idea that we are. Why am I here? What is the purpose of me? My life is meaningless. I'm just going to a dead end job. I'm not happy. All this stuff, all lives, every single one feeds into the greater God or whatever you're talking about. It's exactly what you're saying. But people have to understand that every part, every life is, has a meaning. There is a purpose for every single person who has come onto this planet. And in many ways also beings in general have a purpose. And an experience like that as well, that helps feed the greater one, if you will.

[Tim Freke]

When I, I did my pod Book. It's a philosophy book, really. My. It's free on YouTube. I called it why your life really matters. Because I wanted to get across that all of this was feeding into the importance of your individuality. That's why I want to go, you know, hey, Alex. You're Alex. You're not something else. I'm Tim. Hello. You know, like, like two branches on one tree going, oh, you're a branch, I'm a branch. That must mean we're the same tree. That kind of vision and that we're reaching up into something greater than ourselves and we get to contribute to that. It's. It's. It's profoundly redeeming. And because it's so beautiful and so much love, it, it, in a very literal sense, it redeems the suffering. It doesn't take it away, but it redeems it because it's all leading to somewhere so good.

[Alex Ferrari]

Tim, let me ask you this, because again, something just popped into my head when you were, when you were saying that if we look at nature as an example of this concept that you're talking about, you said branches. When you said branches, I thought leaves. When I thought leaves, I thought fruit. I thought all. A tree is a perfect example. But a tree is just one of many organisms that do this in nature, where there's a lot of individual elements that feed back to the main one, the tree. Beautiful, isn't it? So a tree is a perfect example of that. Beautiful ecosystems are a perfect example of that. All these different things that feed not only into the greater system, but without. But if you pull one thing out, it throws the whole. The whole wall. The whole thing goes out of whack. So if you take leaves away from trees and it's just a bunch of branches other than if it's in the wintertime, they can't survive. They can't survive because without the leaves catching the sun that turns into the energy or catches even the water that turns into the. All of these elements, the tree doesn't survive. Generally speaking, I'm sure there's a tree out there that doesn't do that, but generally speaking, that's. There's. I'm sure. But in an ecosystem is. If we. A perfect example is. I'm from South Florida, and in South Florida, there's. The ecosystem is the Everglades, the biggest freshwater. I forgot the habitat in the world in. In the ever in the Florida Everglades. There is no other place on the planet like it. And there's a very delicate ecosystem where the alligator The American alligator is the top of the spectrum as far as he's the apex predator, but there's so many other things that go along in that ecosystem to make it work. The problem, what's happened is they introduced something. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but they introduced it years ago, accidentally. People would bring home pythons and anacondas as pets, and then they would just, like when they got too big or they didn't want to deal with it anymore, they would just let them go off into the, into the swamps. And you're like, what's the harm in that? Now the anacondas and the pythons have completely taken over the Everglades, killing the alligators who are now not the apex predator anymore, and has thrown the entire ecosystem out of balance. It's fascinating how every part of a system has to be there. What is cancer in our bodies, parts of our body that have gone rogue, that are not working for the whole. So it's again, just another way to illustrate what you're saying. Every single one of us matter, no matter how small of a life you think you might have, it is so, so, so, so important.

[Tim Freke]

And also, you know, Alex, I always want to say, look, if, if you're experiencing that your life is insignificant, then to use the analogy I used before, you're experiencing your life in black and white. I understand. I've also have that from. You know, it's not like it never happens to me. It does. And when I was younger, it happened a lot. But what I've seen is that the smallness of life is. Can be just as beautiful if it comes into color. If it comes into color. And a huge amount for me has been. And that's another transformation. Just as getting old, I suppose, is that. Whereas I used to think, oh, I ought to focus on all these spiritual things, and I do, and that's nice, but also the little things, you know, just to go in of an evening and chill out. Watching some nonsense on the television with my wife. How precious is that? How precious that I can do that and how much I would miss it if it was not possible. The trivial of life. Beautiful. Those little conversations, you know, the phone call from your kids. It's like these little things. So it's really about how we see them.

[Alex Ferrari]

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello.

[Tim Freke]

Hello.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I recently spoke with IBM's new director of research, Jake Ambatta. We discussed his vision for the future

[IBM Researcher]

of quantum computing at IBM Research, what we always do is answer what is the future of computing? Whether it's coming up with new algorithms, coming up with better AI, coming up with quantum, or coming up with just how do different accelerators go together? It's our DNA. To answer the question of what is the future?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Isn't it a perfect problem for IBM because you kind of need to have a legacy of building stuff.

[Tim Freke]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Building actual physical machines.

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah. It's why I came to IBM. I wanted the experience, the culture of building hard things that others have not done before.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Where do you imagine we are in the timeline of this technology? There will come a point when it will mature, right?

[IBM Researcher]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My cell phone is a mature technology.

[IBM Researcher]

This point.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

How far are we from that point

[IBM Researcher]

with Quantum, by 2029 we'll build the first fault tolerant Quantum computer that is one that can run a very, very large, large problem.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn how IBM is building the future of computing, visit IBM.com quantum

[Commercial Announcer]

ever feel like your bedroom's running out of space? Here's the good news. You don't have to sell your favorite things to make space with Ikea Bedroom storage solutions. Dressers, wardrobes, full closet systems, even storage boxes. You can hold onto it all. Your vintage band tees keep em those limited edition sneakers they stay. And yes, there's room for your childhood teddy bear too. Need to organize a walk in closet? The Pax wardrobe lets you customize shelves, rails and compartments so every item has a home. Too many clothes and not enough love drawers. The Storklinta six drawer dresser is perfect for denim sweaters and everyday essentials. And if the kids are taking over your space, trofast storage boxes make sorting toys and art supplies easy and cleanup fun. From primary suites to playrooms, IKEA has storage options that adapt to your life and help you keep what matters most. Don't sell anything you love. Store it instead. Shop IKEA Bedroom storage today at Ikea us.

[Tim Freke]

No aprendas or rela culebrilla de la

[Commercial Announcer]

manera difficile habla Oikon to Doctoro Pharmaceutical Patrocinado for gsk.

[Alex Ferrari]

And now back to the show

[Tim Freke]

and the aliveness that can come when you, when you recognize what we're in. That we're in this amazing like mind blowing mystery. And it is exquisitely beautiful. If you, if you look at it right, it doesn't mean it's not also ugly and cruel. And it has got, you know. But what happens then is you like your analogy with the tree saying it's all feeding. They're all playing a role. It's like suddenly, oh, I want to benefit the whole. That's where service comes from. And your great delight becomes a being of service. And that may be going out and doing some grand thing, but it may be just smiling at the person you bought your milk from.

[IBM Researcher]

Absolutely.

[Tim Freke]

And actually seeing them. Because if you actually see them, if you connect soul to soul with them just for a second, they will feel it and it will brighten their day and a little ripple of love will go out. And there's no one whose life is so small. They can't do that. We can all. We can all make that, make that transition. And then when we do, you know, it comes alive.

[Alex Ferrari]

Ah, this is such a beautiful conversation. Tim, I have to ask you one, one last question. What truth do you think the world isn't ready to hear yet, but is desperately needing to listen to?

[Tim Freke]

There's a lot I'm going to go for. The one that I think is actually the one which is. I think. I think, you know, the whole ethic for me has come into universal benevolence. But with evolutionary wisdom, benevolence on its own can be. Can lead you anywhere. You can do a lot of dumb things from benevolence. You need evolutionary wisdom. And part of that for me has become how we work collectively. And this period where we're ghettoizing each other, ourselves into these ideological

[Alex Ferrari]

echo chambers.

[Tim Freke]

Silos. Yeah, echo chambers. Silos. And what I. What I love about the modern age is that I can go out and I can discover the best of any view now on YouTube so I can really understand all these different things. And I would. I really feel the truth we need to get is we need to understand each other in a deeper way. And we need to understand each other not from our own perspective, but from the perspective of the other, so that we don't dismiss other people as, you're this and you're a bad and you're this, which is. I just see so much throwing of words at the other side. And I feel like to get to the next stage, to go from individual to individual, we've really got to. To step out and understand each other from the other perspective doesn't mean we agree. It might even be worse than we thought, but we've actually done it. And then to. To find a way to turn enemies into friends.

[Alex Ferrari]

That is, boy, from your mouth to God's ears, my friend, from your mouth to God's ears. If he has ears, I'm not sure,

[Tim Freke]

but it's the most enormous ear you can possibly imagine. And it's listening right now all the time.

[Alex Ferrari]

All the time. Just like Santa Claus. But Santa Claus just does it with kids. So. So, Tim, where can people find out more about you and the amazing work you're doing in the world, my friend?

[Tim Freke]

Well, they can go to my website, which is timfreak.com but you have to spell my crazy name the right way because it's F R E K E. It's an old English name. You can find me there. You can find out there about my retreats, which I'm, I run occasionally, which are soul to soul experiences where, where it's about coming into the color. And honest to goodness, nearly everybody does. I want to say everyone actually. It's a very powerful, transformative experience. I love doing it. I've been doing it for 30 years. And then there's the, the on YouTube, there's my, my channel and also my pod podcasts where you can. I'm just starting a new podcast called the Universals Podcast, which may launch like immediately. But this pod book, 37 chapters of the ideas I've touched on in this, which may sound a bit like. What's that laid out chapter by chapter, get this, get this, get this, get this, get this, 37 chapters. So you can really get it like a book. But it's me talking and we can connect directly and I, I respond if people want to ask questions or push me and I, I engage with people and if, if it's in good faith, if people really want to like you, you know, this conversation, I love it, I love it. So I will do that. So, yeah, you can find me on YouTube. You can find me on my website, Tim. Friedrich.com I have an online community where we meet up every week on a Sunday. It's lovely, beautiful. We explore ideas, we explore experience, how we can come into color together. And all of that is pretty much just available. Go and have a look. And I love to connect with anyone in person.

[Alex Ferrari]

Tim, it has been such a pleasure and honor speaking to you, my friend. It is, is. It has been eye opening and I think it's a conversation that people will, they can't ignore. It's a conversation that's going to open, it's going to open up some stuff in them and they're just going to be like, what is, what's happening? Why do I feel different now after watching this or listening to this conversation? So I, I appreciate you, my friend, and everything you're doing to help awaken this planet. So thank you again.

[Tim Freke]

My pleasure. And let me return that to you, Alex, for what you're doing.

[Alex Ferrari]

Thank you for spending this sacred time with us today. If you feel called to explore this conversation further, you'll find the show notes for this episode@next levelsoul.com 672 and if your soul is craving an even deeper journey, step into Next Level Soul tv, our streaming sanctuary for spiritual films, documentaries, original shows, guided meditations, channeling sessions, audiobooks, and transformative teachings. It's a space created to support your awakening, your healing, and your return to the truth of who you really are. Begin your journey at Next LevelSoul TV. Until next time. Keep expanding, keep seeking, and keep walking your path towards the next level of your soul.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast smart talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna and I asked him how can companies use AI to its value fullest potential to create smarter business?

[IBM Executive]

My one advice to them Pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive.

[Alex Ferrari]

Yeah.

[Tim Freke]

Wow.

[IBM Executive]

So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology. It's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smart talks.

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[Alex Ferrari]

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[Tim Freke]

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