Transcript

Noah Friedman (0:07)

Kaleidoscope. I'm Noah. This is Devin.

Lily Kaplan (0:12)

I'm Lily.

Noah Friedman (0:13)

Today's episode A question that nags at me every time I sit in one of their chairs Are dentists scamming us? We dig into the dental industry's surprisingly dark history.

AJ Jacobs (0:30)

A lot of the replacement teeth were from corpses.

Noah Friedman (0:35)

We hear from someone who uncovered a dentist drilling healthy teeth for profit.

Dr. Brandon Zeidler (0:40)

How did I let this happen to me? 28 root canals I must be stupid.

Noah Friedman (0:43)

And I talk with a startup founder who's trying to blow up the entire industry.

Tyler Burnett (0:48)

Going to the dentist is one of the biggest scams of our modern time.

Dr. Brandon Zeidler (1:01)

There's no no such thing. No such thing.

Noah Friedman (1:05)

No such thing. No such thing. No such thing.

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Summary

NO SUCH THING – "Are Dentists Scamming Us? We Investigate"

Podcast: No Such Thing
Host: Kaleidoscope (Noah Friedman with guest-host Lily Kaplan)
Date: March 11, 2026

Main Theme

The episode dives into the persistent suspicion that dentists may be scamming patients—over-treating, upcharging, or pushing unnecessary procedures. Noah, with guest Lily Kaplan and a range of expert voices, investigates the dental industry’s costs, practices, history, insurance shortcomings, and new startups trying to rebuild the dental experience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional and Anecdotal Spark (03:08–06:13)

Table Talk Origin: Noah describes a heated group chat at a baby shower where the prevailing suspicion was that “dentists are scammers,” except Lily, who defended them.
Lily’s Perspective: Once a “dentophobe” who avoided dentists for years, Lily now supports going for regular check-ups but sympathizes with public anxiety:
“I would say I'm of the mind that, like, you should go so that you don't end up like me two summers ago.” (05:17, Lily Kaplan)

2. Personal Encounters with Dentistry Costs (06:52–10:08)

Noah’s Story: After a bowling accident led to broken teeth, Noah entered a cycle of costly repairs. Even with insurance, replacing dental crowns and teeth is a recurring, expensive burden:
“The thing people don’t think about with dental work is it’s not one and done… you're paying thousands every 10 years or so.” (09:06, Noah Friedman)
Pushy Upselling: Noah describes feeling repeatedly and uncomfortably pressured to have more teeth replaced than necessary—fueling suspicion of scammy practices.

3. The Dark, Odd History of Dentistry (14:47–21:16)

Guest: AJ Jacobs

Barber-Surgeons: Dentistry emerged from barber-surgeons—not “real” doctors—who would often extract teeth with little hygiene or pain management:
“You’d go to the barber-surgeon... they’d rip your tooth out with no anesthetic at all.” (15:42, AJ Jacobs)
Traveling Quacks: 17th–19th-century “tooth-pullers” were spectacle-grifters, sometimes using planted shills, loud music to cover screams, and (apocryphal) horse-pulled extractions.
Dentures from Corpses: “Waterloo teeth” and George Washington’s dentures often literally came from corpses or enslaved people:
“Truth is much more disturbing—it was partly ivory, but partly from enslaved people’s, human teeth.” (18:41, AJ Jacobs)
From Quackery to Science: Nitrous oxide, germ theory, and prevention (like brushing/flossing) marked the slow transition to modern, science-based dentistry—yet cultural suspicion lingers.
Pop Culture Stigma: Marathon Man, Little Shop of Horrors, and other portrayals reinforce the trope of the sadistic or money-hungry dentist.

4. Why Dental Insurance Fails Us (22:22–26:51)

Guest: Dr. Sarah Stufan (ADA, Iowa dentist)

Annual Maximums: Dental insurance today works more like a “coupon” with hard yearly payout limits, unchanged for decades—even as costs rise:
“Dental insurance, I think of more like a coupon... and there’s a bunch of asterisks.” (24:05, Dr. Sarah Stufan)
Broken Promise: Insurance rarely supports major needs, leaving patients with huge out-of-pocket bills, triggering both anger and confusion:
“It’s a promise—insurance, the word—it’s a promise you’re insured against something bad happening. But if it actually does, dental insurance covers... maybe your two cleanings a year.” (24:24, Lily Kaplan)
Loss Ratios: Unlike health insurance, dental plans aren’t federally required to spend a set % (only ~36% in some cases!) of premiums on patient care.

5. What Is Your Dentist Actually Doing? (27:37–32:34)

Guest: Dr. Sherilyn Pizzulo (NYU Dental School)

What Checkups Entail: Regular checkups involve x-rays, examination for infection, assessment of prior work, bone levels, and especially looking for cavities.
The “Gray Zone”:
- Only cavities that breach enamel into dentin must be treated. Early enamel lesions can be reversed.
- Confusion or “over-treatment” often occurs at the margin, as some dentists treat tiny, possibly reversible enamel spots while others won’t.
Over-Treatment Motivation: While some dentists follow best practices, a subset drills and fills unnecessarily—sometimes motivated by profit/insurance.
“Some people do over-treatment plan for various reasons... at the expense sometimes of what is best for the patient.” (31:15, Dr. Sherilyn Pizzulo)
Personal Anecdotes: Even Dr. Sherilyn had unnecessary cavities treated as a patient before dental school.

6. The Extreme Scammer: “Dr. Lund” Case Study (34:01–41:49)

Guest: Dr. Brandon Zeidler

Discovery: After buying Dr. Lund’s practice, Dr. Zeidler realized almost all patients had immense numbers of root canals and crowns (20+ per patient in some cases—way outside the norm).
Patterns of Abuse: Analysis revealed gross over-treatment (e.g., “a 90% root canal rate where normal is 3–7%” (38:40)) and billing insurance for work never done.
Betrayal of Trust:
“This is betrayal of trust. You go to someone for all these years, they're a doctor... you, this person betrayed your trust. That’s hard for people to swallow.” (39:44, Dr. Brandon Zeidler)
Rare but Devastating: Despite the severity, Dr. Zeidler argues this is very rare in the field and does not reflect the majority.

7. The Limits of Oversight & How to Protect Yourself (41:21–45:02)

Professional Oversight: Zeidler explains that while dental boards exist to protect the patient, day-to-day oversight is limited.
Second Opinions: Both Dr. Sherilyn and Dr. Sarah recommend second opinions if something feels off, and note you own your records/x-rays.
Practical Barriers: Noah and Lily argue that time, cost, and hassle make this advice impractical for many.
“Who has the resources, time, money, mental capacity to decide whether or not they believe their dentist? The onus is just so heavy.” (45:02, Lily Kaplan)

8. Is the Industry Ripe for Disruption? Wally Health’s Alternative Model (48:38–57:33)

Guest: Tyler Burnett (Wally Health CEO)

Why Wally Exists: Tyler’s mistrust after being told he needed eight unnecessary fillings in the US led him to create Wally: a $249/year membership for unlimited cleanings and diagnostics, but they don’t do invasive work onsite.
Industry Critique:
“Going to the dentist is one of the biggest scams of our modern time. Here in the US, it’s pound for pound the most expensive healthcare experience we have.” (50:41, Tyler Burnett)
- Insurance is broken; private equity exacerbates over-diagnosis/up-selling.
- Some dental groups plan “treatments to sell” before even meeting the patient.
No Insurance Accepted: Wally avoids the perverse incentives.
Patient Experience: Noah shares that Wally’s appointments were highly informative, gentle, and transparent—but "unlimited" cleaning appointments had long waitlists, and some felt pressured to try add-ons.
Expert Reactions:
- Dr. Sherilyn: Thinks Wally suits healthy, regular patients—especially the uninsured seeking cleanings.
- Dr. Sarah: Likes the membership but warns continuity of care may suffer if you see different providers each visit.

9. Wrapping Up: Who Are the Real “Scammers”? (58:07–61:24)

Bad Apples, Not Bad Baskets: Hard numbers don’t exist, but all agree most dentists are honestly practicing; scammers are a minority—much like in any field.
The System, Not Just Individuals:
“The real enemy is the healthcare system, not the individual dentists.” (59:53, Lily Kaplan)
Worse Than Scams: The greater harm is lack of access, due to high cost and inadequate insurance, not rampant fraud.
Call for Better Experiences: Updating “old-school” dentistry toward a more patient-centered, less anxiety-inducing standard is still needed.

Notable Quotes & Moments

AJ Jacobs (history):
“There’s not a huge overlap between your teeth and your butt, but they just were like, let's shoot things up the butt and see if that helps the teeth.” (16:23)
Noah on upselling:
“I was like, I can’t afford this right now… and the fact they were still bringing it up every single time, I was like, something’s going on here.” (10:08)
Dr. Zeidler on betrayal:
“This is not about intelligence. This is betrayal of trust.” (39:35)
Lily Kaplan’s reality-check:
“Who in the world has the resources, the time, the money, the mental capacity to decide whether or not they believe their dentist?” (45:02)

Useful Timestamps

[03:08] Why do we suspect dentists are scammers?
[09:06] Dental treatment costs accumulate over time
[14:47] History of dental quackery with AJ Jacobs
[22:22] Why dental insurance fails with Dr. Sarah Stufan
[27:37] What is a dentist doing in your mouth? Dr. Sherilyn Pizzulo
[34:01] The Dr. Lund “scammer” case with Dr. Zeidler
[41:21] Oversight in dentistry & second opinions
[48:38] Introducing Wally Health, a new dental model
[50:41] “Going to the dentist is one of the biggest scams…” – Tyler Burnett
[56:51] Professional reactions to the Wally model
[58:07] Do most dentists scam? System vs. individual debate

Episode Takeaways

Dental costs are high even with insurance due to outdated “coupon” style benefits and little oversight of insurer spending.
Dentistry has a long, quirky, sometimes dark history of quackery, but has improved tremendously—though the stigma remains.
Most dentists are ethical, but perverse incentives and a few “bad apples” can lead to over-treatment, especially with practices run as profit-centered businesses.
Patients are told to get second opinions if care seems off, but real-world barriers make this hard for most people.
Startups like Wally are experimenting with better incentives and patient experience, but can’t yet address deeper system-level problems or major dental needs.
Ultimate problem likely lies in the structure of American dental insurance and access, not inherent dishonesty of the profession.

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Are dentists scamming us? We investigate