Can YouTubers actually hold police accountable?

Summary

---

NO SUCH THING – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Can YouTubers Actually Hold Police Accountable?

Podcast: NO SUCH THING
Hosts: Manny, Noah, and Devin
Date: May 27, 2026

---

Overview

This episode explores the growing world of First Amendment auditors and cop watchers—YouTubers and online creators who film police and public interactions to stress test constitutional rights, hold law enforcement accountable, and, sometimes, create viral content. The hosts investigate whether these tactics actually drive accountability, examining both the history and present state of the movement, its impact on police behavior, and the debates around tactics and ethics. Journalists and prominent figures from the auditing community weigh in, revealing a nuanced and divisive ecosystem.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to First Amendment Auditors

• What is a First Amendment Auditor?
  Individuals who film in public spaces, including interactions with police and the general public, claiming to test constitutional rights—especially the right to record in public. The goal is often to provoke a reaction that demonstrates knowledge (or lack thereof) of the law (03:26–06:19).
• Distinction:
  • Cop Watchers: Traditionally, people who film police already interacting with civilians to deter misconduct and document abuses (13:12–14:46).
  • Auditors: People who make themselves the subject, sometimes provoking interactions, especially with authorities, to test limits and create viral moments (15:57–18:38).

“I see if people like yourself or business owners or police around the area, I see if they respect our First Amendment right to the freedom of press in public.” – Anonymous Auditor (03:51)

---

2. The History & Evolution of Auditing and Cop Watching

• Origins:
  • Cop watching traces back to the Black Panthers and 1970s, then evolved with camcorders (13:25–15:52).
  • Early cop watchers aimed to document police interactions, keep officers accountable, and protect communities.
• Auditing as Spin-Off
  • Auditing emerged as a more confrontational cousin, often making the auditor the focus (15:57–17:26).

“The goal was not to catch the cops, first and foremost, it was to protect people and to be a presence so that the cops could not abuse someone’s rights.” – Robert Klemko, ESPN Journalist (15:24)

---

3. Notable Cases & Influencers

• Philip Turner ("Battered Citizen")
  • Landmark court case in Texas set precedent for public filming of police; his calm, relentless style influenced many (20:49–25:29).
  • Highlighted that while laws vary by state, public recording is generally protected.

“He created a blueprint for people to win in court… but what was more important was that he gained a following on YouTube.” – Robert Klemko (25:29)

• Jeff Gray ("Honor Your Oath")
  • Focuses on calm, respectful interactions and constitutional rights (26:48–29:38).
  • Known for holding a sign—“God Bless the Homeless”—and seeing how police and community respond.
• Christopher Ruff
  • Highly antagonistic, uses confrontational language, and outright provokes police; even disliked by others in the movement (29:45–34:44).

“I’m no auditor. That’s a slang word used in reference to Internet degenerates that rage bait the public.” – Christopher Ruff (33:39)

• Dale Hiller ("Lackluster")
  • Former firefighter/paramedic turned YouTube commentator; gathers, analyzes, and explains officer-involved videos from around the country, focusing on accuracy and legal context (41:27–51:17).

---

4. Tactics: Calm vs. Confrontational Approaches

• Calm, Respectful Style (Turner, Gray):
  • More likely to win in court and gain respect from both sides.
• Antagonistic, Rage-Bait Style (Ruff):
  • Generates viral content but raises questions about motives and efficacy.
  • Even among auditors, there’s a divide: confrontational tactics are entertaining but sometimes undermine legitimacy (46:07–47:55).

“There are a lot of people in the community that didn’t like those auditors. And for me, they’re my favorite to watch. It’s the most entertaining, but… I think they’re the most important too sometimes because they’re toeing that line.” – Dale Hiller (47:37)

---

5. Impacts on Police & Policy

• Positive Changes:
  • Departments have fired or disciplined officers for violations caught on film (52:48–54:25).
  • Auditor videos have pushed departments to better educate officers on constitutional rights, changing both training and culture (58:14).
• Negative Consequences:
  • Some auditors put themselves (and officers) in unsafe situations.
  • Laws creating “buffer zones” (usually 25 feet) have been enacted or attempted in several states, sparking civil liberties debates (54:25–55:29).
• Recruitment Concerns:
  • Fear of viral exposure deters some from police careers; departments struggle with privacy and online exposure for officers and families (55:29–57:22).

“The fact that you’re fired from the department is a huge plus because you would have been interacting with… someone who’s not filming it.” – Noah (58:05)

---

6. How the Movement Has Evolved: From Entertainment to Advocacy

• Lackluster’s Approach:
  • Moved from curating viral content to building a victim support platform—helping request public records, gathering bodycam evidence, crafting case materials, and even fundraising for lawsuits (48:04–51:51).
  • Crowdfunding and public pressure have pushed for real legal consequences and new case law.

7. Legal Reforms Sought by Auditors

• Qualified Immunity:
  • Main target for auditors/activists to eliminate as a shield for officers from civil lawsuits (60:06–60:47).
• Indemnification:
  • Want to limit government/taxpayer liability for police misconduct when officers violate rights (61:40–62:09).
• Terry Stops and Reasonable Suspicion Standards:
  • Some, like Dale, advocate returning to stricter “probable cause” standards for police stops (62:09–62:42).

“Once the culture changes, our culture, the culture within the police departments will change as well.” – Dale Hiller (59:34)

---

8. Internal Debates: Ethics, Efficacy, and Representation

• Community divides:
  • Debate over best tactics—provocation for views vs. calm, measured accountability.
  • Concerns that rage-bait “civilian audits” (e.g., harassing Starbucks workers for content) harm the movement’s credibility (18:43–20:11).
• Auditors Auditing Auditors:
  • Some, like Dale and even antagonists like Ruff, have turned to critique their peers for ethics and efficacy (36:00–36:04).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Purpose of Auditing:

  “Look, I can explain it to you. I just can’t understand it for you.” – Anonymous Auditor (04:03)

• On the Origin of Cop Watching:

  “We put an end to this...We would patrol the community. If we saw the police brutalize anyone, we put an end to this...Usually the police wouldn't brutalize anyone if we were on hand because we were armed.” – (13:25, Black Panther archival)

• On Buffer Laws:

  “If you say that the police can tell you to get 25 feet back from them...that cop can just keep walking and say, well, now you still need to be 25 feet from me. Right. And then you can't film the police interaction that you're there to film.” – Robert Klemko (54:57)

• On Qualified Immunity:

  “Most people don’t know it exists on the federal level and on the state level, and already we’ve seen it abolished in quite a few states. ...But the problem is, most big civil rights cases are fought in federal court, and so we need it abolished on the federal level.” – Dale Hiller (60:24)

• On Tactics:

  “You can curse and stuff. ...You guys just totally going off on them like that. Yeah, I think it’s necessary for these guys to learn and to be exposed to that, because those people exist not just in the auditing community, but, you know, in the mental health community and more.” – Dale Hiller (47:33)

• On Changing Police Behavior:

  “We’re seeing police departments that walk up and go, okay, we know you have the right to film, blah, blah, blah, blah. I never heard that before.” – Dale Hiller (59:34)

• On Civilian Audits:

  “No one wants to watch a video where some, you know, minimum wage worker at Starbucks is having to deal with a rage baiter. It makes way more sense to me for this brand of person to go kind of hold a police officer accountable.” – Noah Friedman (19:20)

• On the Enduring Debate:

  “This, you know, auditing the cop watching space just kind of mirrors media in general, right? There’s a little bit of everything for everybody.” – Devin Joseph (64:19)

---

Important Timestamps

• 03:26–06:19: Explanation of audit tactics, sample auditor/pedestrian interaction.
• 13:12–14:46: History of cop watching.
• 15:57–18:38: Auditing as antagonism, divisions in the community.
• 20:49–25:29: Philip Turner’s landmark Texas case & impact.
• 26:48–29:38: The styles of Jeff Gray and the split in tactics.
• 29:45–34:44: Christopher Ruff’s approach and intra-community critiques.
• 41:27–51:17: Dale Hiller (Lackluster) on his journey and methodology.
• 52:48–54:25: Impact of auditors on police discipline, buffer zone laws.
• 55:29–57:22: Recruitment and privacy challenges facing police.
• 60:24–62:42: Legal reform priorities for auditing community.

---

Conclusion

The world of First Amendment auditors and cop watchers is complex, blending civic activism, entertainment, and legal advocacy. While viral “audits” sometimes devolve into petty confrontations or clickbait, the broader movement has brought tangible changes—forcing police departments to update training, building public awareness of civil rights, and helping shape legal precedents.

Bottom Line:
Yes, YouTubers can—and have—held police accountable, but the impact (and public perception) depends greatly on their methods, motives, and the evolving legal landscape. The debate inside the community over how best to create change continues.

---

Transcript

[Devin Joseph]

Hey, it's Devin. I'm actually gonna plug another one of our episodes at the top of today's episode. If you enjoyed today's episode and you wanna listen to something else in a similar vein, check out our episode that we did last August titled Inside the Violent World of Online Pedophile Hunters. They're both kind of this unofficial series where we do deep dives on these online communities that intersect with police. I'm gonna link to that other episode in our show notes, but enjoy this. Episod Amendment Auditors right after these ads

[Advertisement Voice]

this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human aging is real. And so are the benefits of adding vital proteins, collagen, peptides to your daily routine. Because around the age of 30, your body needs backup to keep your collagen up to help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Available in the classic collagen peptides, collagen and protein shakes and new vital proteins, collagen sparkling waters so you can stay vital. Stay you. Visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Dale Hiller]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots

[Devin Joseph]

of vendors, the costs add up and

[Dale Hiller]

it gets complicated and confusing.

[Devin Joseph]

Odoo solves this.

[Dale Hiller]

It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales.

[Devin Joseph]

Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way

[Cal Penn]

you can save money without missing out

[Dale Hiller]

on the features you need.

[Devin Joseph]

Check out Odoo at o d o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com.

[Advertisement Voice]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with access to business loans so you can expand and hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. Your customers can pay all the ways they want today with PayPal, Venmo, pay later and all major cards so you can focus on the future when you need a partner trusted by millions. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm Manny.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm Noah and this is Devin. And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research on today's episode. Can these YouTubers actually hold cops accountable?

[Robert Klemko]

There's no. No such thing. No such thing. No such Thing.

[Devin Joseph]

All right, fellas, so the Other day I was scrolling on Twitter and I came across this video. It is a man standing outside of like a strip mall parking lot. Kind of classic suburban America. And then there is a, you know, a woman coming up to him. Alright, so let's play. What are you filming?

[Dale Hiller]

What am I filming? I'm filming a video.

[Devin Joseph]

Well, one could assume.

[Dale Hiller]

There you go.

[Devin Joseph]

On what?

[Dale Hiller]

On.

[Noah Friedman]

Wow.

[Dale Hiller]

Yes, of course you can.

[Devin Joseph]

Yes.

[Dale Hiller]

So what I do is I stress test our first amendment right to the freedom of press in public.

[Devin Joseph]

Uh huh. Would you like to elaborate? What do you.

[Dale Hiller]

What part didn't you understand?

[Devin Joseph]

Well, you say freedom of press, so that means I assume that you're reporting on something.

[Dale Hiller]

What's your topic? Right. There you go. This is it. The freedom of press.

[Devin Joseph]

You don't have a specific topic?

[Dale Hiller]

No, I just told you. So do you support our freedom of press?

[Devin Joseph]

Yes.

[Dale Hiller]

All right, awesome. Well, that's, that's what I'm here to figure out.

[Devin Joseph]

I need to figure that out by filming people driving in and out. I'm super curious.

[Dale Hiller]

I see if people like yourself or business owners or police around the area, I see if they respect our first amendment right to the freedom of press and public.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. By what? By filming.

[Dale Hiller]

Look, I can explain it to you. I just can't understand it for you.

[Noah Friedman]

Damn.

[Devin Joseph]

Boom.

[Dale Hiller]

How many different ways you want me

[Devin Joseph]

to put it for you? I'm gonna start using that with y'. All.

[Noah Friedman]

That was bars misunderstanding here.

[Dale Hiller]

I don't see where the disconnect is. Sure.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm curious. I want to know more about how

[Advertisement Voice]

your actions are helping to advance that.

[Dale Hiller]

How my actions are helping to advance that.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So if you're reporting as the press, like are you reporting for a website, a newspaper, Social media.

[Dale Hiller]

All over social media.

[Devin Joseph]

So you're saying that basically anything posted on social media counts as press. There you go.

[Dale Hiller]

That's called stories. Disseminating it to the public. Yeah, that's called press.

[Devin Joseph]

What are your other sort of points you're trying to make? I'm looking for more specific information on

[Dale Hiller]

what you're trying to achieve. I'm a big supporter of the. All right, well, that's. That's what we. That's what we love to hear.

[Devin Joseph]

I guess I'm wondering like, like you

[Dale Hiller]

don't have anything more specific.

[Devin Joseph]

You're just going around filming to see if anybody asks why you're filming.

[Dale Hiller]

No, I told you that I. Look, I'll explain it one more time very slowly. So what I do.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Dale Hiller]

Is I go around various public places.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Dale Hiller]

And I Stress test. The First Amendment right to record in public.

[Advertisement Voice]

What do you mean by stress test?

[Dale Hiller]

I see how people react. I see if they respect my First Amendment right to the freedom of press. See if they're. See if they believe their feelings override my rights.

[Noah Friedman]

That's incredible. That is so incredible. Such an incredible piece of content.

[Devin Joseph]

So this man here is a First Amendment auditor.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Have you guys. Well, let me set up, basically, kind of a broad sense of what they are. He describes it many times in a video. He can't make me understand. He can describe it for you. I forget the line, but it's a good line. But basically, they go out into the world, usually quote, unquote, public places in front of stores, strip malls. I've seen a lot of people doing this in front of a Starbucks. And they stand in a place that is public property, and they film people to sort of garner a reaction. Right. So he's filming people coming into the parking lot. He's filming their license plates. He's filming people's faces. And then they come up to him and say, why are you filming?

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And he says, because of my First Amendment right. So that there's lots of people who do this sort of thing online. I'm seeing more and more of these types of videos. You have y' all seen these videos on the Internet?

[Noah Friedman]

I've seen a few that. That directly stress test police responses, like, they'll go do this to police officers. This version of it, to me is a little, like, more pointless. I think this feels like you're just trying to get a rise out of people. The stuff with the police officers is also the same vein of content, but it feels more productive, I guess.

[Devin Joseph]

And there's a world, I guess, where this, you know, as he describes you can escalate to the point where they call the police. And then he has.

[Noah Friedman]

Yes.

[Cal Penn]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

Like, if you worked at the store, and then you're like, someone comes in, is like, there's a guy filming. You might call the cops. And then the cops come up. And then you have this with a cop being like, I'm gonna arrest you. Yeah. And that's the. So I understand. I understand the kind of ploy, but it is annoying to hear him pretend that's like. That he's not trying to get a cop to show up.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

That he's just, like, he is trying to get a rise out of people so that, yes, it's better content. Or that the police come and then.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, then there's some sort of interaction yeah. And the idea is they're First Amendment auditors. Right. So they are doing this to, as he says, stress test the idea that you can be in a public place.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And record and film people and that is your right. And that if the police tried to interfere with that, you know, he'll upload the video, they'll get. There's some sort of accountability for the police doing something that is against his First Amendment rights because he is in the right. He's done the research. He is allowed to do this thing. Even if it upsets people, it hurts their feelings.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So after the break, we're gonna hear from a journalist who has done some deep reporting on these First Amendment defenders. And we'll hear from one of these auditors who feels like he doesn't even deserve the title.

[Cal Penn]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] Disclosures hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay the Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary, Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Robert Klemko]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this Indulgent. And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that. That deeply, emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh, my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Hearsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Advertisement Voice]

Aging is real. And so are the benefits of new vital proteins. Collagen, sparkling water. Because around the age of your body needs backup to keep your collagen up. So get your daily glow up now in three fresh flavors. Strawberry blossom, lemon, lime, and blood orange. Improved skin health in as little as 30 days thanks to collagen peptides. Cheers to that. So you can stay vital. Stay you. Visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[Devin Joseph]

All right, we're back. As I mentioned, I spoke with a journalist who has done some real deep reporting on these First Amendment auditors.

[Robert Klemko]

My name is Robert Klemko. I am a writer for ESPN Enterprise and Investigations and a former writer at the Washington Post, where I covered criminal justice and immigration.

[Devin Joseph]

How did you first get into, like, these First Amendment videos? Like what. What piqued your interest about it?

[Robert Klemko]

I was in. At a grocery store in Edgewater, Maryland, where I used to live, and they were enacting a mask mandate for public places. And I took a picture of someone who wasn't wearing their mask, and they called the police. Who then?

[Devin Joseph]

The person who you.

[Robert Klemko]

The person I took picture of in Safeway, and the person called the police, and the police compelled me to id and then they just let me go. And then I thought if. If I told them what I did.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

And if nothing I did was wrong, why did I have to.

[Devin Joseph]

Yourself.

[Robert Klemko]

Identify myself?

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

You know, why do I have to be in this police report for a thing that isn't a crime? And so I started doing a little bit more research, and I found this community of people who essentially pushed the boundaries of those laws and your Fourth Amendment rights and your First Amendment rights and where they intersect. And I watched them religiously for years. And then in my role covering criminal justice, I thought, you know, this is kind of growing. This is pretty interesting. I should write about this.

[Devin Joseph]

Can you sort of walk me through or describe sort of like what a cop watcher or first amendment auditor is?

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah. Well, I'm glad you said cop watcher, because it's important to differentiate. Cop watching is a thing that, you know, it starts in the 60s and 70s with the black Panthers.

[Devin Joseph]

When we first started, we had a police alert patrol, and we would patrol the community. If we saw the police brutalize anyone, we put an end to this. Usually the police wouldn't brutalize anyone if we were on hand because we were armed. And if the police arrested the individual, we follow him to the jail and bail the individual out.

[Robert Klemko]

And then evolves with the availability of camcorders to Berkeley. Cop watch in California, Watch is not

[Devin Joseph]

at all a political party. We consider ourselves

[Robert Klemko]

a grassroots movement to encourage and stimulate the desire on the

[Devin Joseph]

part of the citizenry to control police functioning, to have some to hold the police accountable for their activities, for what they do.

[Robert Klemko]

And there I. You know, I don't want to say definitively they're the first, but they're the first really big and notable organization that begins to track police and film interactions between civilians and cops. Not in an aggressive way, but in just a monitoring way.

[Dale Hiller]

You're putting him in a straight jacket for doing nothing.

[Devin Joseph]

He's not resisting. Badge number 18.

[Dale Hiller]

I have a right to cop watch. It's my right.

[Devin Joseph]

It's my right.

[Robert Klemko]

That's what we kind of came to see cop watching as and something that spread across the country in the 90s and early 2000s.

[Devin Joseph]

Can you talk a little bit more about these cop watchers? Especially, like in California, like, they're foaming the police, but what are they doing with it? Like, you know, they're not posting it online. So sort of what was their goal at the time?

[Robert Klemko]

You know, they were posting it on websites. On their own websites. Yeah. Not on YouTube. And I think more importantly, they were keeping a database of cops that they. And highlighting the ones on their web pages that they felt were exhibiting abusive behavior. So they were trying to build cases against cops who they considered were terrorizing the community. And then I interviewed a woman who was a founding member of Berkeley cop Watch, and she talked about how the goal was not to catch the cops. First and foremost, it was to protect people and to be a presence so that the cops could not abuse someone's rights.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, the idea, if someone is watching, you're gonna be on your best behavior.

[Robert Klemko]

First amendment auditing is a bit of a spinoff of that, but the key difference is that you are not finding and filming an organic interaction between the police and somebody that they're interacting with or investigating. You are flexing your First Amendment right to record in public. And in many cases the cops come to you because the complaint is being made about you. I'm just filming in the, the library here, inside.

[Devin Joseph]

I don't think they're allowed.

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah, it's a public place.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm allowed to film in the library.

[Dale Hiller]

It's a public place.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, they have a policy.

[Robert Klemko]

You want me get it for you? Their policy doesn't. The policy doesn't trump the rights of the United States Constitution. I have a freedom of press and that's kind of the genre of video that's taken off online. I'm just gathering credentials, but it doesn't.

[Devin Joseph]

You don't need credentials, sir. We all have freedom of press. So, yeah, there's cop watchers, you know, which are people who are filming interactions that people are just having with police. A lot of them, you know, use police scanners or whatever to, you know, go to traffic stops and things of that nature. And then there's auditors. And auditors are kind of subjects of their videos. Some of them are doing things like filming in front of police stations and their main. Or outside of jails. And their main point is to get a person of authority to interact with them. Right. And test the limits of their First Amendment rights.

[Dale Hiller]

Sure.

[Devin Joseph]

There's this newer wave of auditors which will go in front of like a Starbucks and film people's like license plates and faces. And then the people from the Starbucks would be like, why are you filming? Like, what are you doing? Hi. Hey, how you doing? This is my Starbucks. I was just wondering what you're doing.

[Dale Hiller]

I was just, just recording.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. For what purpose?

[Dale Hiller]

For my boss.

[Devin Joseph]

I was sent out here just to record maybe like the, the drive through few license plates and get a few faces if I can.

[Advertisement Voice]

Okay.

[Devin Joseph]

I was actually about to stop. I'll have to call the security. No, I was actually about to leave here in a couple hours. I wasn't gonna be here long. Okay. Yeah, we're not comfortable with that here, so I'm gonna have to ask you to leave now. And they are also testing the limits of their First Amendment rights. But they are more so interacting with normal day to day people. Right. Sometimes the cops are called as a result of that and it becomes an interaction. But their main sort of focus is to get more of a, you know, kind of like a rage bait, a

[Noah Friedman]

little bit yeah, yeah. It starts at a more general public.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

And then if it gets to police, then maybe. Great.

[Devin Joseph]

Yes. But the police are down the line. Yeah. They're not the initial target.

[Noah Friedman]

Interesting.

[Devin Joseph]

And there's, you know, a lot of people that I talk to in this world. There's kind of a. People are not so happy with the people who are going outside of like a Starbucks.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And doing this sort of thing because they feel like it gives the entire, you know, group a bad name and they feel like it's kind of cheap because obviously that stuff goes a bit more viral because you get like a random woman yelling at you outside of Starbucks. Yeah. But they don't feel like that stuff is, you know, doing as much for the cause.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, no one wants to watch a video where some, you know, minimum wage worker at Starbucks is. Is, you know, having to deal with a rage baiter. It makes way more sense to me for these, this brand of person to go kind of hold a police officer accountable for whatever infringements they might be doing. I mean, the sad thing is, though, you say people don't want to watch that. It's like it gets views you might not search for it, but yeah, sure. So, I mean, that's all right. That's kind of the, I imagine the motive for these people to do a lot of those. Yeah, yeah. Maybe in addition to the cop stuff. Yeah, there's. There. Yeah. I think there's an audience. There's a difference between, like, yeah. Wanting to see it versus when it's on. I got to see the rest of this.

[Devin Joseph]

It makes you stop.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

It's built for, like, autoplay.

[Noah Friedman]

Yes.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, yeah. And it's also virality. That person in the opening, based on, you know, how we're defining it here, would be a auditor.

[Noah Friedman]

First Amendment auditor.

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Not a cop watcher.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

These lines get a little bit blurred. There are some people who do a little bit of some, a little bit of the other. So like I said, we'll come back to this, but this is like just as a starting point, how many people on this field kind of separate the two? Sir Robert credits in part some of this new wave of digital creators making this content to this guy named Philip Turner and this really popular court case.

[Robert Klemko]

He was one of the first really popular auditors who really understood the law at a deep level and gained a lot of popularity on YouTube in a place where auditors often face the most friction in Texas. And you'll see if you, if you consume a lot of these videos in the mid Atlantic and in the Midwest and in the Northeast and in California especially, it usually goes pretty smoothly. But in the south, in rural areas and big cities too, in Florida and in Texas, auditors really face the most pushback for what they're doing. And so he was popular for filming in Texas. And, you know, theoretically there under. There are more protections under the law there in terms of having to identify yourself or not, because Texas Penal Code 3802 provides that you do not have to provide your identification unless you're lawfully arrested.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, wow.

[Robert Klemko]

Whereas the vast majority of other places in the U.S. you. You need only be reasonably suspected of committing a crime, about to commit a crime, or have committed. Committed a crime. So it's. It's a higher. It's a higher standard in Texas. And yet Turner, in the mid late 2000s, was getting arrested constantly.

[Devin Joseph]

Officers wanted me to ID myself. I refused, and they arrested me for failure to id and the charge was to jaywalking. They arrested me, fingerprinted me, and booked me in, and I was in holding for a few hours.

[Robert Klemko]

One of those cases, one of those convictions reached the federal appeals court and established for that district that you could film police in their public duties, that you could be on public property and film officials doing their public duties. And there have been a number of lower court decisions across the country to that effect, but his was a notable one because he was the first popular YouTuber to challenge the. These precedents at that level.

[Devin Joseph]

So let me play you guys a bit of this interaction with Philip that led to this court case. So he's filming outside of a police department on the sidewalk across the street.

[Robert Klemko]

Got your ID with you.

[Devin Joseph]

And these two cops walk up to him. You got any id, Sir?

[Robert Klemko]

Sir, do you have any id? Yes.

[Devin Joseph]

No, maybe. Do you have any id, sir? Am I being detained for investigation?

[Robert Klemko]

There are things going on in this world, and this especially involving law enforcement. You're walking around law enforcement facility with a video camera. We like to know who's. Who's surrounding our complexes. Do you have any ID?

[Devin Joseph]

Are you freezing or are you refusing

[Robert Klemko]

to ID yourself, sir?

[Devin Joseph]

What's your name and badge number?

[Robert Klemko]

Officer RD382 Fiver. You're refusing ID yourself, sir.

[Devin Joseph]

What's your name?

[Dale Hiller]

And Badger 2586.

[Devin Joseph]

Thank you.

[Robert Klemko]

Are you refusing ID yourself, sir?

[Devin Joseph]

Am I being detained?

[Robert Klemko]

Yes, you are.

[Devin Joseph]

For a crime.

[Robert Klemko]

I didn't say you committed a crime, but I have the legal right to detain you for further investigation, depending on the outcome of what. What's Going on? You're walking around a law enforcement facility very suspiciously with a video camera. In light of what's going on, we. We have the right and authority to know who's walking around our facilities.

[Devin Joseph]

No, that's incorrect.

[Robert Klemko]

Okay.

[Cal Penn]

Do you have your id?

[Robert Klemko]

Are you refusing to ID yourself? Yes or no?

[Devin Joseph]

What happens if I don't ID myself?

[Robert Klemko]

Well, then we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay, but you have to tell me what happens if I don't ID myself.

[Robert Klemko]

No, I don't. I'm not required to tell you that. Yes or no, are you refusing ID yourself or not?

[Devin Joseph]

Once again, what crime have I committed?

[Robert Klemko]

I've already explained that to you.

[Devin Joseph]

You.

[Robert Klemko]

I don't need to explain it to you again. Are you or are you not gonna identify yourself?

[Devin Joseph]

Are you familiar with Texas Pinnacle 38.02?

[Robert Klemko]

Answer my question. I get to answer the questions here. It's my investigation, not yours.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm not gonna ID myself.

[Robert Klemko]

Okay.

[Dale Hiller]

All right, let's go.

[Robert Klemko]

Let go.

[Devin Joseph]

Put your hands behind your back.

[Robert Klemko]

What happens when you leave that? Be yourself.

[Devin Joseph]

You got. You're kidding, right?

[Dale Hiller]

Nope.

[Devin Joseph]

So he doesn't produce an id, and as you can hear, he ends up being arrested, and the court ended up siding with him that he did have the right to film these cops. Would you say after this case, there were more creators now making this type of content, or did it just more so give validity to the content that he was producing?

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah, I think he created a blueprint for people to win in court. But what was more important was that he gained a following on YouTube.

[Devin Joseph]

Because of the case.

[Robert Klemko]

Because of the case and because of his style. He is a very calm person. I sat down and had lunch with him when I was writing this story. And he never raises his voice. It's just kind of monotone. And he's differs in that from other auditors who get pissed off when the cops come and demand id. And he never gets upset. He just sort of explains his stance to the officers. And in some cases, that seems to unnerve the officer even more.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, because it's like I'm. You know, I guess they're expecting him to be a little bit more antagonistic. Yeah. Than he is.

[Robert Klemko]

Exactly.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

You see a guy holding a camera, and I think a lot of officers associate that with a protester. And so I think it throws them off a little bit when you are completely calm and you're not angry with them, but you're also not going to kind of budge.

[Devin Joseph]

Can you talk me a little Bit more through some of the bigger creators in this space and kind of the different approaches that they take.

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah, well, there's an OG that you gotta mention first, and that's Jeff Gray. Honor your oath. Civil Rights Investigations, I believe, is his channel. He's an army veteran, former truck driver in the army, and he goes around Florida communities and Southern communities for the most part. And he has a cardboard sign that says God bless the homeless, and he calls it his magic mirror that he holds up to society.

[Devin Joseph]

Greetings, everyone.

[Robert Klemko]

This is Jeff with on your civil rights investigations.

[Devin Joseph]

Today is Saturday, April 25, 2026. I am here in downtown Hastings, Florida,

[Dale Hiller]

where Hastings Main street is hosting this

[Devin Joseph]

potato and ham and cabbage festival, I guess is what it's called. And I'm going to stand out here with my sign, spread the message of compassionate love for homeless veterans, solicit prayers and goodwill for our homeless vets.

[Robert Klemko]

And he'll stand in a public place, you know, in a farmer's market, in a public park, or outside of a town hall. And invariably someone calls the police and the police come and say he's gotta move along, he's got a trespass.

[Devin Joseph]

If I'm free to go, have a nice day.

[Advertisement Voice]

You're not free to go.

[Devin Joseph]

So I'm being detained temporarily. For what reason? What's your reasonable articulate suspicion? I'm conducting an investigation based on what? What am I doing that's illegal? Conducting an investigation? What's your reasonable Says that I can. What's your reasonable articul. What is your reasonable artication based on? I'm conducting an investigation based on a potential security issue. Potential security issue.

[Advertisement Voice]

Potential security issue.

[Devin Joseph]

That's right. I've explained to you. I see the tapes, I have right to see the tapes. And after I see the tape.

[Robert Klemko]

So you're going to detain me till you see the tapes.

[Devin Joseph]

Can you shut up long enough for me to finish talking?

[Robert Klemko]

That's not very nice.

[Devin Joseph]

I don't give a damn.

[Robert Klemko]

Okay?

[Devin Joseph]

And he's one of, like you said, one of the OGs. He came up a couple different times. And Robert calls out like. What's funny about what Jeff does is that he'll use these really specific terms, right? That should kind like. Or not the way we talk. And should like for the officers be like, huh, I remember something of that, like from training. It's like we watch those training videos at work and you're like, who? No one speaks like this. And if I don't give you id, I'll go to jail. Yes.

[Robert Klemko]

Even though I'VE explained to you that

[Devin Joseph]

I'm engaged in constitutionally protected. I don't care if you explain it to me or not. Safeguarded by the First Amendment, which is

[Robert Klemko]

freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of assembly on a traditional public

[Dale Hiller]

forum, the steps of city hall. Correct.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm not begging for money.

[Robert Klemko]

I'm not begging for money.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. You got your id? Do I need to show you my id?

[Dale Hiller]

You need to show me your id yes, sir.

[Devin Joseph]

Or what? You're going to jail. But in a lot of cases is, you know, these police officers don't remember that training, and it doesn't go off as, like, a red flag for them. Yeah, it's like, oh, okay. But, you know, both of these guys, relatively calm.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

You know, Phil Turner, Jeff. Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

Not rude. Like, not rude when talking to the guy. Like, yeah, very Even kill.

[Devin Joseph]

He's like, hey, man, you know, I know you don't understand, but hey, here's. Here's what you know, here's why I'm allowed to do this.

[Noah Friedman]

Yes. Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

There are some people who have a very different tactic. Oh, no, there's another guy in space named Christopher Ruff. So it's Christopher Ruff, and that's all you're getting. Now fuck off.

[Dale Hiller]

Well, I mean, I got the rest.

[Devin Joseph]

You little fucking faggot fuck. Go back to your car.

[Robert Klemko]

I mean, nobody likes Christopher Ruff, the guy that we rode around with, you know, for obvious reasons, I'm not sure I like the guy.

[Devin Joseph]

Kind of.

[Robert Klemko]

Kind of put me in harm's way a couple times.

[Devin Joseph]

It's not going to look good online. You stupid. Just stand there and be quiet. The sheriff's not going to be happy with you being disrespectful to the public while he's trying to get voted into office. Idiot. Damn, dude. Shut up. I'm done talking to you.

[Cal Penn]

Shut your mouth.

[Devin Joseph]

Shut your mouth, servant.

[Robert Klemko]

A lot of these guys have a similar experience to what I described, where they were approached by a police officer, compelled to giving their ID or challenged in that way, and then looked up the law later and felt like, oh, that wasn't right. And he had a similar experience in Arizona, and he started filming police and following them around at night, shining flashlights at them, you know, driving at a safe distance, but following them in much the same way. You see people following ICE vehicles in various cities where they're surging.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. Establish your crime scene, fat boy, and then we'll do whatever you want.

[Robert Klemko]

And he has a very antagonistic relationship with the local cops all around. Phoenix, to the extent that he is often credited with many of them putting an encryption delay on their radio traffic, their public radio scanners, to where the public can't listen to it in. In real time.

[Devin Joseph]

Staring at me like, you're gonna do something.

[Robert Klemko]

I think if you talk to cops around the Hill, they'll say, yeah, it's because of this guy.

[Devin Joseph]

It's crazy.

[Robert Klemko]

This one guy. One guy, we had to pay, like, 200K to this encryption service.

[Devin Joseph]

This guy's so annoying that. That's wild.

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah, but so I wrote, I, I. I found him interesting and wanted to get on the ground with somebody who really was pushing the limits. And so I rode around with him for this story.

[Devin Joseph]

So why are we doing it? Because it's obvious that the police do not know how to do their job correctly. It's outlined in Policies, Procedures, and law. Very specifically. Over the course of over 100 years, they've been doing this. And even in a video that you guys shoot with him, he's not. He's very confident in sort of, you know, what he believes his rights are. And he's not like, you know, we talk about, like, calm Demeter. He's like. That is the opposite of what he's giving.

[Robert Klemko]

Opposite. Yeah. He is testing the obscenity language in First Amendment precedent in terms of, like, the. The thin line between fighting words and obscenities. I think I wrote this. We were in the car with him, myself and the videographer, and he rolled down the window and he screamed at this sergeant at this stoplight to eat a bullet.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, I guess it's not illegal to tell someone to die. He wasn't saying, I'm gonna kill you or.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, he was just saying, like you said, really testing the limits. Here, let me play you guys some of these. Chris.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm excited to see this.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm scared.

[Devin Joseph]

Take your mask off, dumbass.

[Robert Klemko]

You stupid, sloppy.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, I'm glad I'm found. You just wanted to rub in. Your case got dropped, dumbass.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, man,

[Devin Joseph]

you calon.

[Dale Hiller]

You too.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. So as. As y' all see, very different tactic. A lot of name calling.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Cursing. So I tried to get Chris for this episode, so emailing him, texting him. He ghosted me twice for interviews. And Chris is someone who really hates the term auditor. I told him I was doing a piece on Cop Watch as the First Amendment honors, and he's like, well, let me read exactly what he says. I'm no auditor. That's a slang word used in reference to Internet degenerates. That rage bait the public. But Chris is someone who. Like we were talking before, right? There's cop watchers, there's auditors. He's someone who is kind of like a combination of the two, Right. Because he's showing up to interactions that people are having with police. Like Robert said, like, he's following around police, but then he also. So he's cop watching, but then he also, a lot of times, becomes the subject of the videos. He gets himself involved. He gets involved in the interactions beyond just filming them. He becomes kind of a character in it as well.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. Even the title of that video was I Kept Getting Arrested, so I kept filming the cut. It's like, very much about what he's doing deliberately.

[Devin Joseph]

This stupid right here just assaulted me. Don't say my name. You don't know me.

[Noah Friedman]

You.

[Devin Joseph]

Dude, I don't gotta go nowhere.

[Dale Hiller]

You.

[Cal Penn]

You.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm on a private sidewalk. Public sidewalk. You're live on the Internet. Go ahead and arrest me. Go arrest me. Go ahead, stupid. You're live on the Internet. Internet. Watch out, you guys. Hey, you guys see this? So Chris, over the last couple weeks, has stepped away from cop watching.

[Noah Friedman]

Interesting.

[Devin Joseph]

So now what Chris does is he spends a lot of time streaming. And what he is usually doing is calling out auditors for behavior that he doesn't think is sort of, like, worthy of the crown. There's a. There's this ex cop that takes his son, who's like 17 years old. 16. 17 years old, out to record restaurants and businesses and calling it a First Amendment audit. I want you guys to think of the dynamic there, and you're supporting this nonsense, but he's kind of. Yeah. Made this switch from cop watching himself to criticizing a lot of people in the industry.

[Noah Friedman]

He's auditing the auditors.

[Devin Joseph]

Exactly. Taking a step back.

[Noah Friedman]

So he's not necessarily opposed to the term. He's more just upset that it's been. The term has been watered down by people he feels like are kind of clowns.

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

I think he's opposed to the connotation now that it has of kind of,

[Noah Friedman]

like, baiting the public. And then if the cops come, great. But. Yeah, I get that. I mean, I think we kind of agree with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dale Hiller]

That's the thing.

[Devin Joseph]

Like, Chris is like. Even in my interactions with him, I'll be kind and say he's a character.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

But he's. He could come off a bit rough at times, But I think at its core, I think we would agree on some things which, like, cops should be held accountable, especially with their interactions, you know, with regular people like us. Yes, I think we just would go about it differently.

[Dale Hiller]

Yeah, it's uncomfortable to watch.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

But that's by design.

[Devin Joseph]

To someone who also spends some time sort of like auditing the auditors, but does it in a very different way. Is another person that Robert brought up.

[Robert Klemko]

Another big one that I find really interesting is this channel called Lackluster. It's run by a guy named Dale Hiller and he takes interactions from around both the auditing world and just the police interaction world, more so police interactions nowadays. And he breaks down the law and all the press and he does painstaking research which I've, you know, I really learned a lot from when I started watching these videos and of course fact checking him and all that. And it's refreshing because the vast majority of the community is just a guy who, you know, maybe goes out and records some interactions, but for the most part grabs other people's videos and puts them up on the channel and offers a little commentary. And the commentary is often incorrect or imprecise and misstates the law. And a lot of these videos unfortunately give people bad information on what they can and can't do within First Amendment rights and fourth Amendment rights.

[Devin Joseph]

After this short break, my conversation with Dale Hiller and Robert reveals how police departments across the US are changing because of these auditors.

[Cal Penn]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures. Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Robert Klemko]

I really had to make a decision decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Advertisement Voice]

Aging doesn't stop, and neither should you with vital proteins, collagen and protein shakes because around the age of 30, your body needs more support for movement and recovery. On workout and rest days. Reach for a 30 gram total total protein shake or go with our classic collagen peptides help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints so you can stay vital. Stay you. Visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

[Devin Joseph]

All right, so can I have you start by just saying your name and what you do?

[Dale Hiller]

Sure. My name is Dale Hiller. I'm the owner and operator of a YouTube channel called lackluster.

[Devin Joseph]

So Dale, can you walk me through a bit of your background?

[Dale Hiller]

Yeah, well, I had no idea what I was going to do like most of us when, you know, in my early 20s. So I joined the military. I got out. I was a medicine during my military career and I really had no direction after the military. And I eventually became a dual function firefighter, paramedic for LA City Fire and spent a couple years doing that until I just couldn't handle it mentally essentially any longer. And PTSD from wartime experience and all that fun stuff caught up with me and so I left the department and did a couple other Small business ventures in between here and there. And then I started streaming, doing YouTube stuff, but mostly gaming related. And in my spare time I was watching these audit videos and police encounters, cop watchers, all of the like. And one day I had my own experience. And when I posted that to YouTube, it exploded. And I had a Neighbor, he was 18, and one day he was intoxicated and he started talking about harming himself. And everybody came to me like, hey, you're his neighbor, go rescue them, basically. And I was like, oh well, in one of the messages he said he had a weapon. So I'm not going to go personally, I'll call the cops. And the cops show up. He sometimes he'll go in the backyard and smoke. So I don't know if the voice can travel.

[Devin Joseph]

Copy?

[Dale Hiller]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

How do you get to your backyard?

[Dale Hiller]

There's a gate on the side over here.

[Devin Joseph]

Mind if I go back there?

[Dale Hiller]

Absolutely, yeah. No dogs. They came into my house and looked at his property over my fence and, and then they started gearing up in swat, you know, their full riot gear, helmets, shield, everything. And as they were approaching the door, I started filming from my front porch. And as they were knocking, one of them realized that I was out there filming them and tells me to go inside.

[Devin Joseph]

We need you to get inside.

[Dale Hiller]

For what?

[Devin Joseph]

The guy comes around you with a gun. What do you think?

[Dale Hiller]

Then I'll get, then I'll get inside. At this point I knew I had a right to be on my own property on the curtilage of my, you know, my front porch. And, and so I just ignored him for a minute and he started yelling at me, telling me I was going to get arrested.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay, I will be back to arrest

[Robert Klemko]

you if you don't get it.

[Dale Hiller]

You're going to arrest me on my own property? For standing up? Okay, going to get arrested for standing on my porch. And that's when I learned like I'm not a good auditor cuz I'm unable to keep my cool. I, I, my anger just kind of explodes and, and I'm not very nice.

[Devin Joseph]

I'll be back with a summons.

[Robert Klemko]

You can explain. You got it.

[Dale Hiller]

You'll talk to my lawyer. What's your name and badge number then? Hey, name and badge number.

[Devin Joseph]

Welfare recipient Dale's neighbor was safely removed from the home and taken in by EMTs.

[Dale Hiller]

I took the recording and put that on the Internet. I got their body cams and it became a four part series where I was exposing how when they gear up, they actually cover up the, the body cam with their vests. So when they're going into an extremely hostile and violent situation, they're actually covering up their video cameras and a few other things like that. And that kind of launched the lackluster career. Welcome back to the lackluster channel. Today's story was submitted by frickin media and Michigan constitutional crusader.

[Devin Joseph]

I asked Dale, like, what does he think makes a good auditor? He says he thinks he'll be a bad auditor because he can't keep his coil in these interactions. And he thinks a lot of people that he points to are really good about keeping their cool in these interactions.

[Dale Hiller]

So we have a lot of guys like Long Island Audit. You'll never hear him cuss. He's always professional. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'. Am. And he kind of mirrors the attitude that he receives. Jeff Gray, always super respectful. So those guys are like your. Your pinnacle, like top tier dudes that most people look up to in the space. And then you got other people who the moment they see, you know, cherries and berries, it's F you, pig. And just going off 100%. And there were a lot of people in the community that didn't like those auditors. And for me, they're my favorite to watch. It's the most entertaining, but it really is. But I think they're the most important too sometimes because they're toeing that line. They're really testing the boundaries and putting these guys to the test. And I know from my experience as a firefighter, we learn how to fight a fire in a sterile environment where you're safe. And it's the same for the police department. They're learning all their skills on how to deal with the public, make arrests, blah, blah, in these sterile environments. And they're tested a little bit, but it's more like, you know, it's fake. You know that. That's just my drill sergeant. And so to have these guys that like, really come at them like, like, you. I'm sorry, F you.

[Devin Joseph]

No, you can. You can curse and stuff.

[Dale Hiller]

All right, cool, Cool.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dale Hiller]

You guys just. Just totally going off on them like that. Yeah, I. I think it's necessary for these guys to learn and, and to be exposed to that, because those people exist not just in the auditing community, but, you know, in the mental health community community and. Yeah, and more.

[Devin Joseph]

So Dale doesn't consider himself an auditor because he doesn't like, go on the ground and film interactions himself.

[Dale Hiller]

My platform has become ever evolving. In the beginning, I was doing intro outro and showing somebody else's interaction. Today's story is from Blaze Media and he has given us the honor of breaking down this video for him. Today we're going to cover concealed Carrie in Oklahoma felony pointing firearms, otherwise known as brandishing a weapon, as well as stop and ID laws versus a Terry Stop. And I still do that, but it's become something totally different. Because at first it was focused mostly on auditing specifically. And for a while, maybe a year and a half to two years, now I don't focus very much on auditing at all. One day I found Google forms. I had never heard of it, and I created a form that was basically like, hey, what's your name? What officers were involved, where did it happen, what date, time, blah, blah. Everything that I would need for a script, essentially I would write down as a question and then a place for them to upload their video. And people use it like crazy. They send me crazy stuff, but most of the time, good interactions for me to break down and discuss. On April 1st in 2025, a viewer named Kevin was driving through Texas at about 3 o' clock in the morning when he came across the Sierra Blanca Border Patrol immigration checkpoint. Kevin starts recording after being sent to secondary inspection. I've added the body cam footage as the incident happens, which only became available In January of 2026, nearly a year after the incident occurred. And the only reason Kevin has the footage is because he successfully sued U.S. customs and Border Protection for the footage. So that collection point for victims essentially has become a way for me to, to contact these people, help them. If they don't have like a complete record of the incident, a lot of times they only have their own video footage and they don't know how to do a public records request because it's a difficult process. And you know, after doing thousands of them, I still don't consider myself professional at them. You know, there's a lot that I have to learn about records requests, and then we can put it together, tell a story, force a government agency to acknowledge that something happened and that they're responsible for it, to take some accountability if we're lucky. Four months after the original video, Sheriff Tracy White was finally indicted.

[Advertisement Voice]

Seven months later, a grand jury indicted the sheriff. He's charged with menacing and harassment.

[Dale Hiller]

And if not, then we can fundraise a. Last year I think we raised like $250,000 on GoFundMe for victims to fund lawsuits and, and to push these things through court. And as a result, we're getting case law established in like all over The United States. So. So, yeah, that's what it's grown into. At first, it was just kind of a vehicle for all entertainment. Auto didaction, you know, self learning. And yeah, now, now it's become something much bigger. So.

[Devin Joseph]

Do you not see that process that you just talked about? Right? Like, okay, someone is, hey, I had this incident. It was on this day, this county. Here's what I have. You're going through, like, you're saying you're doing public record requests, you're getting body cam footage, you're getting. If there's police reports, you're putting all this together and then you're, you know, applying. You know, okay, what were the police supposed to be doing here? What are they allowed to do? They allowed to do. You're writing a script, you're putting together that video. Do you not view that as a form of auditing?

[Dale Hiller]

I. I mean, I certainly could. I mean, the way you asked it.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, a bit of a leading question there.

[Dale Hiller]

I love how you framed it, though. But, yeah, I. In the way that you. You asked it. Absolutely. I. I guess the. The reason I wouldn't naturally call what I do auditing is just because of how it's portrayed online. It's usually somebody with a camera actually going to a physical location and, you know, seeing what the reaction is. So.

[Devin Joseph]

Makes sense. I was curious, you know, Robert's reporting, if he found that these guys have actually changed the way people are policing.

[Robert Klemko]

There's a lot of police officers around the country, just a drumbeat of police officers who have been disciplined, suspended, fired for their behavior towards auditors. There's a certain class of officer who, you know, will straight up say to an auditor, you can't film me. You know, and that's just like, so untrue. And so, in a sense, it has cleaned up a number of police departments across the country in that way. On the other hand, auditors have put themselves in some really dangerous positions, and they made the job of law enforcement a lot more difficult, especially the more antagonistic auditors who, you know, ignore orders to get back and maintain a safe distance and all that. To the extent that a number of states have enacted or tried to enact laws creating a buffer zone around police officers. Yeah, 25ft is the popular number around the country in terms of the states that have. That have enacted this. In Arizona, they enacted a buffer, and it was struck down, I believe, by a federal court or a higher court. Florida's is still in existence. Indiana's was struck down by a federal court.

[Devin Joseph]

Appeals Court has blocked the enforcement of Indiana's 25 foot buffer law.

[Cal Penn]

The law makes it a crime for someone to approach within 25ft of a

[Devin Joseph]

police officer while the officer is engaged in enforcement duties.

[Robert Klemko]

So I think there's only three or four states with these. The concern among civil rights organizations and reporters rights organizations, journalist rights organizations, is that if you say that the police can tell you to get 25ft back from them while they're working a crime

[Devin Joseph]

scene,

[Robert Klemko]

then that cop can just keep walking.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

And say, well, now you still need to be 25ft from me. Right. And then you can't film the police interaction that you're. That you're there to film. So it's like more of a concern and a. In a traditional cop watching sense, I think that there would be a stronger pushback against these laws on behalf of, like, the ACLU and some of these other organizations if not for the Trump presidency ushering in all of these other things that were higher priorities to fight.

[Devin Joseph]

I believe this was in your article. You were saying that some police precincts said it was harder to recruit people because of these videos.

[Robert Klemko]

Yes. Yes. Because a lot of people, you know, who I think might want to be a police officer, you know, to help people or, you know, for whatever reason, don't necessarily want to be on camera all day. Yeah, Every day. And you'll see that in guys who don't want to give their name. Officers who won't say their name out loud, won't say their badge number out loud. I think part of it is they don't want to be on the Internet and under scrutiny in that way, because it's easy enough now. And this is something that's changed in the last 10, 15 years. It's easy enough to Google, you know, last name and Tempe Police Department and find the person's whole name.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

And find the person's Facebook or their wife, you know.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. People on the Internet are ruthless. Like, I'll see when these videos pop up. It'll be like, oh, this guy. And they'll tag. There'll be four or five other videos with the same officer. And it'll be like, yeah, literally, here's his Facebook, here's his wife, here's his kids. Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

You have to, I think more than ever before as a cop, you have to just be offline.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

And your family has to be offline. Yes. Because I've just been, like, poking around and been curious, like, oh, I wonder if I could find this guy, this officer that I saw in this video, just like, as an exercise for myself. And I'll google him and it'll take me five minutes to find his mom because his mom liked the post that the Gardena PD posted when he graduated from the police academy. And it's like, oh, you have the same unique last name. Let me click on this. Oh, here's a picture of you and your mom.

[Devin Joseph]

And her stuff's all public. Her stuff's all public. She doesn't have anything locked up.

[Robert Klemko]

Yeah, yeah. You didn't call moms and tell her to put it all on private. You know what I'm saying?

[Devin Joseph]

Mom is always the way in. Yeah.

[Robert Klemko]

So I think that's a big deterrent. You do not get to live any kind of a private life as a cop now.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, it's really interesting hearing about some of the kind of consequences of, of what these auditors are doing. I mean, you could argue that even if the only thing they were getting done was that police officers were being fired for the way that they behaved towards an auditor. You could argue, well, if you're going to behave that way towards an auditor, you're probably behaving similarly towards regular people. And the fact that you're fired from the department is a huge plus because you would have been interacting with whatever,

[Devin Joseph]

someone who's not filming it.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, hundreds of people after that. And so even if that was the limit of what they were getting done, that's still pretty good.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. And Robert also said, like a lot of police departments, especially in, you know, places where these auditors and cop watchers or more prevalent like they had, it has become, training has become more essential and, you know, like the departments now are saying, hey, you gotta be watching out for these guys. And here's what the law says, here's what they can and what you can and can't do. So it is forcing a lot of these departments to educate their officers in a way that maybe in the past wasn't as important because sure, maybe they didn't know what the laws were, but people weren't filming it or uploading it and like, there wasn't really much recourse because then it becomes a he said,

[Robert Klemko]

she said sort of thing.

[Devin Joseph]

So, yeah, I do think, you know, as annoying as some of these others seem to be, like, it does seem like they are changing things in some ways for the better.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, I feel like our society is probably better if police officers don't view themselves as these kind of immune to criticism, above the law, all powerful guys and instead view themselves as people who are actually working in service of their communities.

[Devin Joseph]

Well, man, it was a great transition, because I. I wanted to ask Dale, you know, you're doing all this work. What. What are your ultimate goals for this work?

[Dale Hiller]

Once we have widespread education, then the culture changes. And. And we've seen it just. Just in the five or six years that I've been doing it. We've seen police departments that walk up and go, okay, we know you have the right to film, blah, blah, blah, blah. I never heard that before. Never heard that. It was always, get back and kill your camera, whatever. So we're seeing small changes like that. And ultimately, I think the goal would be once the culture changes, our culture, the culture within the police departments will change as well.

[Devin Joseph]

I'll give you two to three laws that you can either create or. Or upend as part of the work that you're currently doing. What would they be? I see you're wearing, you know, abolish a qualified immunity shirt. So is that one of them?

[Dale Hiller]

That's number one, because I think it's the easiest we see. So qualified immunity. Most people don't know it exists on the federal level and on the state level, and already we've seen it abolished in quite a few states. New Mexico, Colorado. But the problem is, most big civil rights cases are fought in federal court, and so we need it abolished on the federal level.

[Devin Joseph]

So qualified immunity is this legal doctrine that basically says a police officer can't be personally sued for violating your constitutional rights unless there's a previous court case with really similar facts showing that exact same behavior was ruled unconstitutional. So critics argue, in fact, practice, that makes it really hard to actually hold police accountable. Here's a wild example of how this can play out. In 2016, a corrections officer pepper sprayed a man in solitary confinement for no reason at all. Initially, the Lowell court granted this officer qualified immunity. Why? Previous cases show that an officer shouldn't punch or tase an inmate in that situation. But there were no previous cases involving pepper spray specifically. Luckily, in this case, the Supreme Court ultimately stepped in and said the lower courts were taking a doctrine way too literally.

[Dale Hiller]

And then on top of that, I'm considering this still, within the same law that we're abolishing or getting rid of is indemnification.

[Devin Joseph]

Indemnification means if an officer is sued, the government ends up fronting the bill. So if a jury awards a victim, say, $5 million for a civil rights violation, the officer is not paying for that out of pocket. It is actually being covered by the government. Or the government's insurance. So ultimately the taxpayer is fronting that bill.

[Dale Hiller]

I think there are good legitimate reasons to use indemnification, but it can't just be blanket every single time. So that's number one. And number two would be it obvious? Terry v. Ohio. There's nothing in the Constitution about reasonableness. The reasonableness standard altogether is just hokey pokey bs.

[Devin Joseph]

So Terry v. Ohio is a Supreme Court case that lowered the standard that police need to stop and frisk someone. It used to be probable cause and now it's even lower to a standard called reasonable suspicion.

[Dale Hiller]

It should be based on probable cause. I think we would see far fewer, you know, I accidentally detained the wrong person or you know, cops holding guns to kids heads and you know, police violence. Everything else, it would probably disappear with the Terry v. Ohio. But I think that's a really difficult one to reverse because not only do you have Terry Vee Ohio, but you have all the case law that was built off Terry v. Ohio as well. So it might not ever happen, but it would, you know, magic wand it, that'd be on the list.

[Noah Friedman]

For me, it's not knowing much about this world and having not really seen many of these videos, I was like, yeah, this is kind of weird or strange and like I get it, but it's like I don't really see what the point of doing this is.

[Dale Hiller]

Hearing this, all the context around it. I do appreciate and I do think

[Noah Friedman]

largely it's a noble effort even among the more in your face sorts of provocateurs in the space. You know, maybe more so for them. You know, this is not, I'm probably not going to be tuning into the

[Dale Hiller]

streams personally, but it's like, yeah, it's good. It's like people should know their rights

[Noah Friedman]

and as, as kind of small or silly as some of these things might seem, it's like it's helpful to know and to understand and then obviously that scales up to the more extreme consequences that can come from police interactions or anything else. So yeah, I, I support them, I stand with them.

[Devin Joseph]

I feel like, you know, this, you know, auditing the cop watching space just kind of mirrors media in general, right? There's, there's a little bit of everything for everybody. There's. If you want to go deep, there's people like Dale who are doing FOIA requests and then, you know, getting body cam footage and public records and editing it together and like writing scripts and doing that stuff. If you want to watch just somebody rage baiting someone out of McDonald's like that exists too. But I agree with no. Like, I think a lot of what I was feeling about this going into it was sort of shaded by the McDonald's, Starbucks guys yelling and obnoxious guys, you know, yelling at individuals. And less, you know, I was less focused on the people who are actually interacting with police officers.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. And, and I guess that goes towards Mr. Ruff's point about how those guys are kind of giving everyone else a bad name. I think we should try this. The three of us. Let's go down to. What's that jail they're holding Diddy at.

[Devin Joseph]

All right, so we're going to go down to the jail, just whip out

[Noah Friedman]

the video camera and.

[Devin Joseph]

And see who shows up. Maybe. Maybe we have Noah do that one. Get behind me. So I was curious why we're not seeing more of these First Amendment auditors interacting with ICE officers around the U.S. if you want to hear Robert's response to that, check out our Instagram. No Such thing. That show. We're going to link to it in our show notes. I'm going to put a reel there with Robert breaking down. We're not seeing more interactions between First Amendment honors and ICE agents. No Such Thing is a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hadakoder. The show was created by Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman and me, Devin Joseph. Our theme and credit song is by Manny mixing for this episode by Steve Bone. Our guests this week were Robert Klemko at ESPN and Dale Hiller from Lackluster Media. Dale actually has an app which I'll let him plug here.

[Dale Hiller]

Attorney Shield is an app that myself, Long Island Audit and a couple other people co founded. And basically we wanted anybody that was ever contacted by police during any police initiated encounter, you would have immediate access to an attorney so they could tell you what your rights are.

[Devin Joseph]

If you have feedback for us or a question, you can email us at Manny, Noah, Devin, gmail.com or you can leave a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. We'll be back next week. New episode. Bye guys.

[Robert Klemko]

No, no such thing

[Devin Joseph]

in football. You've got guys from everywhere, different backgrounds, different beliefs, all of it. You don't agree on everything, but you

[Dale Hiller]

got each other's backs.

[Devin Joseph]

That's how it works. And right now, off the field hates going up everywhere. Different communities, different ways.

[Cal Penn]

And Jewish communities are getting hit hard.

[Devin Joseph]

That's not how a team operates. The blue square is just one way

[Cal Penn]

of showing you've got people's backs go

[Devin Joseph]

to bluesquare alliance.org grab1share it be a good teammate.

[Advertisement Voice]

This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video. And listen.

[Devin Joseph]

We're not saying you need another obsession,

[Advertisement Voice]

but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time?

[Devin Joseph]

Off campus?

[Advertisement Voice]

L the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances chemistry you can feel

[Devin Joseph]

through the screen and it makes you

[Advertisement Voice]

wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies. Perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does.

[Devin Joseph]

Your next obsession is waiting.

[Advertisement Voice]

Watch only on Prime.

[Cal Penn]

Here's the truth. You could literally be adored by everyone and then come home and still get completely ignored by your own cat. It's classic cat behavior. But new Sheba Premium Puree is a lickable treat that changes all that. They're protein rich, made with bone broth, and have the smooth, creamy texture cats go crazy for, especially when it's hand fed. Yeah, it's more than a treat. It's a fast pass to favorite human status. So feed your cat Sheba and go from totally ignored to truly adored in just 12 days. Guaranteed. Or your money back. Learn more at Shiba.com M&M's Popped Caramel do sound different, but oh no, people are gonna be obsessed.

[Robert Klemko]

What do you mean?

[Devin Joseph]

People hate the sound of chewing.

[Cal Penn]

Maybe they won't like the crunch.

[Robert Klemko]

Maybe we're saved.

[Cal Penn]

Wait a minute. Yellow.

[Dale Hiller]

Have you been eating them this whole time?

[Devin Joseph]

Mmm.

[Noah Friedman]

So tasty.

[Cal Penn]

Hands off us. M&M's popped caramel.

[Devin Joseph]

It's more fun together.

[Advertisement Voice]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.