Do audiobooks count as reading? (Remastered)

Summary

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NO SUCH THING: "Do Audiobooks Count as Reading?" (Remastered)

Podcast: NO SUCH THING (iHeartPodcasts & Kaleidoscope)
Release Date: July 8, 2026
Hosts: Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman, Devin Joseph
Guest Experts: Dr. Virginia Clinton Laselle, Rich Filoni

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Episode Overview

This remastered episode revisits one of the show’s founding debates: Do audiobooks count as reading? Manny, Noah, and Devin, three journalists and best friends, challenge each other's takes on this viral question—exploring the cultural, psychological, and scientific implications with humor and rigor. The trio mix personal anecdotes, a controlled experiment, and expert insights, ultimately uncovering surprising truths about reading, listening, and what really matters when we say we “read” a book.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Big Argument: What Counts as Reading?

• Opening Debate (02:03–07:00)

  • Sparked by a viral tweet: "Do audiobooks count as reading?"
  • Devin: Firmly says NO—listening isn’t reading, it’s a different act and people should be honest about their media consumption.
  • Noah: YES—content is the same, comprehension can be too, and it’s a semantic debate.
  • Manny: Agnostic—doesn’t see harm in calling audiobooks “reading” but feels the argument reflects deeper social perceptions.

  Quotable:
  “If someone tells me they read something but they actually listened to it, I don't feel like they're defrauding me or anything like that.” —Manny (03:02)

• Devin’s Transparency Principle (04:30–05:56)

  • Worries that audiobook listeners hide their method out of embarrassment.
  • Advocates for “reading” and “listening” lists—be open about your consumption.

• Cultural Status and Work Ethic (05:44–07:19)

  • Reading books (physically) seen as virtuous and effortful.
  • Audiobooks perceived as easier—does that devalue the achievement?
  • Social prestige attached to being a “reader.”

• Comprehension and Retention (07:19–09:55)

  • Different people remember or process content in varied ways, regardless of medium.
  • Some books—whether read or listened to—are quickly forgotten.

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2. Personal Experiments & Anecdotes

• Mixed Modalities: Reading + Listening (08:24–09:55)

  • Noah describes reading along to an audiobook for the Oppenheimer biography.
  • Challenges around honesty in casual book discussions revealed (hiding audio consumption).

  Quotable:
  “I just wasn't thinking about it. I was beyond being self-conscious. I was on a different plane.” —Noah (09:57)

• Perceptions of Prestige (10:15–12:37)

  • Reading seen as “sacred” by some; listening is less revered.
  • The “wokeness” debate: is being inclusive about audiobooks a way of performing acceptance?

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3. The Research: Does Science Make a Distinction?

Expert Segment with Dr. Virginia Clinton Laselle (16:12–26:38)

• Who: Dr. Laselle, an associate professor specializing in digital and flexible reading, conducted a meta-analysis on reading vs. listening comprehension.

• Study Overview: (16:26–17:10)

  • 46 studies, 4600+ participants.
  • Motivation: eliminate the shame around audiobooks in academic settings.

  Quotable:
  “Why are you so embarrassed about that? We're all busy academics. We're doing something extra…you're meeting and talking about it and contributing.” —Dr. Laselle (16:38)

• How Experiments Work: (18:31–19:09)

  • Participants either read or listen, then take retention tests (multiple choice or recitation).
  • Sometimes, the same participants switch modalities in a follow-up.

• Hosts’ Homegrown Experiment: (19:09–20:34)

  • Both read "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson; Devin reads, Noah listens.
  • Scores: Devin 95%, Noah 89%.
  • Outcome: difference is minor, possibly due to luck or smarts, not the modality.

• Scientific Findings: (21:44–22:45)

  • Comprehension between audiobooks and reading is “really no different.”
  • Key difference: “decoding” (visual recognition of words) isn’t required in audio.
  • Memory retention for content—no meaningful gap.

  Quotable:
  “There's really no difference between an audiobook and a visual book.” —Dr. Laselle (22:45)

• Complexity & Distraction: (23:21–24:29)

  • Highly complex materials may favor visual readers (easy re-reading, note-taking).
  • Both forms suffer when multitasking/distracted.

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4. Accessibility and Functional Diversity

Audiobooks as a Critical Option (24:39–25:47)

• Essential for those with visual impairments, arthritis, ADHD, or those needing mobility.

• For students/busy people, the best modality is often the one they’ll actually use.

  Quotable:
  “If the learning objectives don't have anything to do with the actual modality-specific language skills, then…giving that option would probably be a good idea.” —Dr. Laselle (26:12)

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5. Reflections & Evolving Perspectives

Immediate Takeaways (27:04–30:28)

• Manny: Initially ambivalent; remains so but accepts that comprehension is equal and doesn’t mind if people equate the two.

• Noah: Surprised by findings, thought paper reading would be superior, but is happy to advocate for audiobooks.

• Devin: Still believes in transparency about how content was consumed, but respects the scientifically-proven equivalence.

  Quotable:
  “I still feel like knowing that you should feel even more empowered to go up to someone and said, I listened to the audiobook. What are you gonna say? I didn't comprehend the information?” —Devin (29:14)

• Performance Anxiety:
  The group agrees that, culturally, there’s unnecessary pressure to “perform” as a reader, not a listener.

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6. The Big Reveal: Calling Out the “Reader”

Rich Filoni’s Impressions (31:04–34:01)

• Noah admits to listening to part of Oppenheimer after previously allowing the impression that he fully "read" it.

• Rich: Initially feels “betrayed” due to unclear disclosure but—ultimately—doesn’t think it matters; transparency is key.

  Quotable:
  “I think people need to be upfront. We need to normalize being upfront about audiobooks.” —Rich (33:27)

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7. One Year Later: How Have Their Views Changed?

Hosts’ Reflections (37:00–44:00)

• Devin: Softened stance, influenced by further research and broader reading debates. Just happy people are engaging with books in any way.

• Manny: Now a published author who recorded his own audiobook—has a new appreciation for the labor and experience of audio readers.

• Noah: Recognizes the importance of trusting others' experience and intent—“It’s a taste thing.”

• All: Agree that audiobooks now feel like a legitimate, respected way to consume literature; emphasis on honesty & personal enjoyment over purity tests.

  Quotable:
  “If you're listening to audiobooks, I have a new appreciation for you because there's a lot of work that goes into actually laying those down on the tracks.” —Manny (39:56)

• Life after competitive tracking:
  Devin gave up numerical reading goals to focus on enjoyment, recalling the pressures that made reading transactional rather than meaningful.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Semantics:
  “We're talking about a semantic issue.” —Noah (03:56)

• On Retention:
  “There's books I read just for fun that I'm not paying that close attention to…and I instantly forget what happens.” —Devin (07:19)

• On Experiment Results:
  “Devin might just be built different.” —Manny (20:32)

• On Cognitive Science:
  “Listening to an audiobook is not cheating…there's really no difference between an audiobook and a visual book.” —Dr. Laselle (22:45)

• On Accessibility:
  “People with ADHD who have a hard time sitting still find that…physical movement keeps their body calm so they're able to listen and really enjoy the book.” —Dr. Laselle (25:09)

• On Honesty:
  “I'm just going to come clean from now on…I’m not going to, you know, just—Say, you know, I'm not that smart, you know, whatever. Let's just move on.” —Noah (33:58)

• On Author Experience:
  “It took like, three or four different sessions. I lost my voice at the end of each one. There's a lot of work that goes into actually laying those down on the tracks.” —Manny (39:45)

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Important Segments and Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |:--------------:|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:03–07:00 | The main debate: what should "count" as reading? | | 16:12–26:38 | Interview with Dr. Virginia Clinton Laselle; science segment | | 19:09–20:34 | Hosts' comprehension experiment results | | 27:04–30:28 | Initial reactions to the research | | 31:04–34:01 | Rich confronted: audio “confession” & reactions | | 37:00–44:00 | One-year-later reflections: have opinions changed? | | 39:02–40:15 | Manny describes recording his audiobook |

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Tone and Language

• The tone is casual, witty, occasionally self-deprecating, and full of good-natured ribbing.
• The hosts freely acknowledge their personal biases and change their positions based on evidence and reflection.

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Final Takeaways

• Audiobooks vs. Reading: Scientifically, in terms of comprehension and retention, they’re virtually equivalent for most purposes.
• Social Pressure: Much of the stigma comes from social perceptions of “effort” and “honesty.”
• Accessibility: Audiobooks are vital for various functional needs and can democratize reading.
• Honesty is Key: Ultimately, transparency about how we consume books is more important than the label we use.
• Personal Growth: The hosts model personal evolution—becoming more open, less judgmental, and more appreciative of all forms of media consumption.

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For further questions, feedback, or your own “dumb arguments,” contact: [e-mail] or visit www.nosuchthing.show.

Transcript

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Noah Friedman]

Guaranteed Human.

[Devin Joseph]

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[Noah Friedman]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Possibility means you have a chance. Passion opens the door to all possibilities. When I feel like anything's possible, I

[Manny Fadal]

feel kind of giddy.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

I want to be an astronaut, an

[Noah Friedman]

artist, an actress to visit another country. All I need is a backpack and a pair of shoes and I'll find a way I'm able to do anything

[Devin Joseph]

I set my mind to.

[Noah Friedman]

Never felt like more things are possible than right now.

[Devin Joseph]

In the right shoes, anything is possible.

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[Noah Friedman]

Hey, what's up thingers? This week we are running a remastered version of our very first episode ever. It's about audiobooks and I think it's a pretty fun one. And then make sure you stick around

[Manny Fadal]

after the episode to hear us reflect

[Noah Friedman]

on how we feel about all of this now. All right, on with the show. Kaleidoscope.

[Manny Fadal]

I'm Manny.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm Noah.

[Devin Joseph]

And this is Devin.

[Noah Friedman]

And this is no Such Thing, the show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research. Today's argument began with a tweet. The question do audiobooks count as reading?

[Manny Fadal]

I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't.

[Noah Friedman]

Do you actually comprehend content the same way when you're hearing it versus reading it?

[Devin Joseph]

I feel like I forget what I read very quickly.

[Noah Friedman]

And lastly, I have a confession to make to a friend. I'm gonna tell you something now, Rich, okay? And this is full transparency here. What would you say if I told you

[Manny Fadal]

there's no such thing? No such thing. No such thing. No such thing. No such thing.

[Devin Joseph]

I hop in here because I came across a tweet that I dropped into the DMs. And the tweet was, do audiobooks count as reading? And I just commented, no. So, Manny, what do you think?

[Manny Fadal]

If someone tells me they read something, but they actually listened to it, I don't feel like they're defrauding me or anything like that. I haven't listened to many audiobooks, but if I did, I think I would be okay telling someone that I read

[Noah Friedman]

the book the end of the year. And you're making a list of all the books you've read. You would put Prince Harry's book on there?

[Manny Fadal]

I would put Prince Harry.

[Noah Friedman]

Had you listened to it?

[Manny Fadal]

Exactly. If I had listened to it.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. So, Noah, you obviously believe that listening to an audiobook counts as reading.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, if, you know, I've listened to the Prince Harry or Catcher in the Rye. That's a book I've read. I know the book.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. So my goal this year was to read 24 books. I didn't read 24. I got to, like, 20, 21. You're telling me if I listened to 24 audiobooks this year, it would be the equivalent of me reading 24 books?

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, I would totally accept that. If you were like. If you posted.

[Devin Joseph]

That is insane.

[Noah Friedman]

If you posted your list and we're like, here's the 24 books here, 24 books I read.

[Devin Joseph]

And then it's.

[Noah Friedman]

We're talking about a semantic issue.

[Devin Joseph]

No, no, no. The question was, do audiobooks count as reading?

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Reading means.

[Noah Friedman]

Well, I guess it means. What does reading mean to you?

[Devin Joseph]

Reading means to me what? Reading means.

[Noah Friedman]

With your eyes. With your eyes.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, what is the definition of reading?

[Noah Friedman]

I think it's a very small. Of what reading really is.

[Devin Joseph]

I think it's a very. You know, reading is one thing, which is reading.

[Noah Friedman]

All right, but these are books.

[Devin Joseph]

Huh?

[Rich Filoni]

They're audiobooks.

[Manny Fadal]

They're all books.

[Devin Joseph]

They're audio books.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, but it's the same.

[Devin Joseph]

It's the same content.

[Noah Friedman]

Well, you think people are obscuring the fact that they listen to books.

[Devin Joseph]

Yes. This is my whole. The real reason I have a real issue with this is because I think people just need to be honest about how they're consuming media. And I think the people who listen to audiobooks and want to pretend that they read the books is because they are slightly embarrassed that they listened to the book and they didn't read it, because otherwise, why won't you just say, yeah, I listened to that audiobook? This person was clearly asking because she was putting together some sort of list end of the year. She didn't read as many books as maybe she felt like she should have that year, but she listened to some audiobooks and she wanted to add them to the list.

[Noah Friedman]

So you want people to make two lists then?

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. Like, if I put together, I mean,

[Noah Friedman]

to be honest, it's like, I'm not that interested in seeing any lists. So now it's like you're gonna ask me to look at two for separate

[Devin Joseph]

mediums where it's like, I'm not saying that. Right. Look, you can make one list and say, here's the things I read and listened to this year.

[Manny Fadal]

So I think a question for Devin here is, what is it about the act of reading that you feel is more valuable than listening to an audiobook?

[Devin Joseph]

What is the difference between reading and, like, listening to an audiobook? Is that, like, I can't read and walk my dog at the same. Right. I can't read.

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[Noah Friedman]

But would you if you could? I mean.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, if I could, I would.

[Noah Friedman]

Who cares then? I mean. Or like, very agile.

[Devin Joseph]

But it's like, we talked about this the other day. People don't read books. Reading is not an easy thing to do. Like, making time for reading, especially now, having the attention span to read. And I think, you know, rightfully or wrongfully, people look at people who read a lot of books in a different light than someone who may read one book a year.

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[Devin Joseph]

Like, saying, I read a hundred books this year is very different than I listened to a hundred audiobooks every morning. I listen to, let's say, two hours of, like, between, like, NPR and WNYC and, like, the daily. Right. So if I said, okay, I'm not going to do that every day. I'm just going to make those audiobooks. I can get through a lot of audiobooks in a year.

[Manny Fadal]

So basically, this is like a work ethic thing.

[Noah Friedman]

I mean.

[Kohler Ambassador]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

You're looking at it as a time. I mean, I. I do listen to the occasional audiobook.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay.

[Noah Friedman]

I mostly read books.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

You know, in your definition, physical paperback books. I'm looking with my eyes.

[Manny Fadal]

It now feels like such a brave thing to say. Like, I do listen occasionally.

[Noah Friedman]

I keep a list just so I can look at what I've read this year.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. On that list.

[Noah Friedman]

And I can look at that list. And I don't mark off the difference.

[Devin Joseph]

You know which ones you read.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And you know which ones you listen to.

[Manny Fadal]

So Devin is making a point about, like, transparency and honesty. But another question around this is, like, whether you're reading or Listening, do you feel like the information is being retained in the same way? For example, if Noah listened to Killers of the Flower Moon and Devin read it, do you feel like you're coming away with such a different experience?

[Devin Joseph]

So I don't think, like, because I read a book and Noah listened to a book, that means that I necessarily have, like, retained the information better. I just think it's probably processed in a way that's different. But I also, like, there's books that I read that I don't remember very well. Like, I sent y' all that TikTok the other day about that woman talking about, like, reading the book and then, like, instantly forgetting, am I the only person who read a book? Love the book. In about 72 hours, you done forgot everything that happened in that damn book. And that's why my friends be thinking that I just be skimming through the pages. Cause they fuck around and ask me about a book. I couldn't tell you what the fuck happened in that book. And I feel like there's some stuff that I read just, like, for fun that I'm not paying that close attention to. Like, that happens, and I instantly forget what happens. And there's, like, some audio stuff that, like, I'll be listening to that, like, maybe I'm paying a bit more attention to, like, this American Life episode where I'll be able to retain more information. So I don't know. I think that's a long way of saying. I think it depends. I don't think, like, necessarily reading or listening to something means you're gonna retain the information better.

[Noah Friedman]

It can go both ways. Like, I've read books and then reread them and then just, you know, whether it's just the mood you're in when you're doing it or whatever, you might just be able to absorb the information better, whether it's just, like, you're in a different head space. And then there's also books that, like, I've done both at the same time, where, like, I'll have the physical copy, but then I'll have the audiobook on my phone.

[Manny Fadal]

You're reading along?

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. Like, I remember doing that with the Oppenheimer biography.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, wow. We had a conversation with Rich about it for context.

[Noah Friedman]

Rich is a friend of ours we used to work with.

[Devin Joseph]

I just want to reveal on the podcast here that you didn't say I listened to. I also listened to the audiobook during a conversation.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, that's me. Well, I'm speaking my truth because that's how I Feel it's. It's the same thing.

[Devin Joseph]

The conversation was literally about how he couldn't get through reading the book.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, but I don't know what his habits are. Like, maybe he reads two books a year. I read a lot of books I be reading.

[Devin Joseph]

That exact conversation is my issue with people who want to claim that they read audiobooks. It's like one man is saying, wow, it's really hard for me to get through reading this book. And you're like, yeah, it was kind of easy for me. I did it in like three weeks.

[Noah Friedman]

Oh, I didn't brag about it. He asked.

[Devin Joseph]

And then you're like listening to the audio.

[Rich Filoni]

Yes.

[Noah Friedman]

He asked me how long it took. I gave him an answer of a

[Devin Joseph]

time without some very important information, which is you listen to half of it.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, well, I know every fact in

[Devin Joseph]

there, so I'm not saying. Once again, it's not about comprehension.

[Noah Friedman]

To me, it is about comprehension. We keep going back to this where it's like you're talking about people being worried about how they're gonna be perceived for it. Right. That's kind of what this is actually about.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, this is about people's perceptions.

[Noah Friedman]

So it just depends on how you want to present publicly, I guess. I don't think in that moment with Rich, for example, I wasn't being self conscious. I just wasn't thinking about it. I was beyond being self conscious. I was on a different plane. It was not even a thought in my head to mention it because it's irrelevant to me.

[Manny Fadal]

Just to distill the argument a little bit here, basically, Devin, you feel like people are self conscious about this because they feel like listening to an audiobook is not as prestigious as reading a book.

[Devin Joseph]

You gotta see what's important to you. It's a challenge for me to find time to read. To me, there's something, I don't know, still sacred about getting outside of the digital world we live in to read words on a page. Well, you didn't ask Noah how he feels about it.

[Noah Friedman]

About.

[Devin Joseph]

Do you think reading is more sacred than listening to an audiobook?

[Noah Friedman]

I can't say necessarily. I think that, like, I think if you. If you're actually focusing on the words and focusing on listening to it, you could still have the same experience or a very similar experience, if not the same one. But as far as comprehending and connecting with it, I think generally you could even. Even something that is like maybe on a more sentence by sentence level kind of that more literary sort of thing.

[Manny Fadal]

And to play Noah's advocate a little bit, you know, Please.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

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[Manny Fadal]

Like the passing of information via word of mouth. Like that's long before books and writing. Like that's an ancient tradition.

[Noah Friedman]

That's right. Ever heard of the Odyssey, Devin?

[Devin Joseph]

Well, what do you personally think, though? You sit around me.

[Noah Friedman]

Oh, I mean, me generally, I'm at the end of the year, my.

[Devin Joseph]

If you read 10 books versus listening to 10 audiobooks, what do you think is more valuable?

[Noah Friedman]

Reading. Okay, reading with eyes.

[Devin Joseph]

We can look, we can. Hey, look, I think the thing here, right, is that we all want to pretend like audiobooks are just as good as we.

[Noah Friedman]

Again, it's like what we say is valuable. That's what I would prefer. And that's how I would get the most out of these books for me.

[Devin Joseph]

But I think this is that classic, sort of like everyone wants. We all want to pretend to be like inclusive and blah, blah, blah.

[Noah Friedman]

That's what I'm doing.

[Devin Joseph]

But it comes down to it. It's like. Well, me personally, I prefer to read. But like, if you want to say, like, audiobooks, is reading good for you,

[Noah Friedman]

you're saying I'm being too woke.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, I think that basically I just

[Noah Friedman]

think it's like people absorb these things differently.

[Devin Joseph]

Agree?

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So just own the way you're absorbing it. Like if you're listening to an audiobook, just be upfront about it.

[Noah Friedman]

So Devin's main concern is more about the presentation of it all. He thinks people are embarrassed to admit that they listen to books because it's quote unquote, easier than reading. So we're gonna do a couple things now. We're gonna do a test to see how reading stacks up versus listening as far as retaining information. And I'm gonna try to talk to an expert about all of this stuff.

[Devin Joseph]

Awkward time to ask this, but.

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[Noah Friedman]

All right, we're back. I'm Noah.

[Manny Fadal]

Manny.

[Devin Joseph]

Devin.

[Noah Friedman]

Last time we spoke we were arguing about whether or not audiobooks count as reading.

[Devin Joseph]

Should we just really quickly say where we stand?

[Noah Friedman]

Devin, why don't you say where you stand?

[Devin Joseph]

Audiobooks do not count as reading. They count as listening to audiobooks.

[Noah Friedman]

And to me they're the same. You get all the same stuff out of them. So it's reading to me and I

[Devin Joseph]

don't remember where did you stand on this man?

[Manny Fadal]

I remember being kind of agnostic, I think.

[Noah Friedman]

So what we've done since then is I wanted to get some real answers on this. I reached out to an expert on the issue. I wanted to find out how Reading comprehension is actually studied and what differences there are between reading and listening.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

My name is Virginia Clinton Laselle. I'm an associate professor of educational foundations and research at the University of North Dakota, and I specialize in digital reading and flexible reading modalities.

[Noah Friedman]

She published a meta analysis a few years ago looking at 46 different reading versus listening studies.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh.

[Noah Friedman]

With over 4600 participants. So she's kind of the perfect person to ask about this. She had an interesting motivation for why she started this study to begin with.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

I will say my motivation for this study was I was in a book club on campus, and somebody very sheepishly said, I've been listening to the audiobook. Oh, I'm sorry. Like, and she said, I've been doing so much driving, it just worked better. And I remember just thinking, why are you so embarrassed about that? We're all busy academics. We're doing something extra. You know, you're meeting and talking about it and contributing.

[Manny Fadal]

I've learned something after that. After that. Soundbite. I'm on. If you're in a book with a visceral reaction, I'm like, okay, I don't care what you call it. I honestly don't. You're in a book club.

[Devin Joseph]

The whole of a book club.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, but if she's able to come and actually say things, I mean, it's

[Manny Fadal]

like, what difference does it make? I get, like, the information relaying, but that feels like a book club feels like kind of a sacred.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Act.

[Rich Filoni]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

But I guess the point is, like, if she hadn't said that, would the other people in the group even know? And it's like, what are you in

[Manny Fadal]

the book club for?

[Noah Friedman]

Cause you all read these pages or because you're reading this book together and learning about the story or whatever. It's like, if you're able to talk about it, then it doesn't matter.

[Devin Joseph]

I view it as twofold. Right. Like, a book club holds you, like, accountable for. Okay, I'm gonna have to finish this thing because I'm gonna have to go and talk to people about it. So it forces you to make time to read the book to your point. I think, in terms of the discussions. Sure. I don't care if you've, you know, like, I can talk to. I could talk to someone about a book. If I've read it and they've listened to it, I'm not gonna be like, I'm sorry. I only speak to people who have read the book.

[Manny Fadal]

You're not like, the book club goes, it doesn't go any differently if you listen or read it. But it just feels like a weird. For whatever reason, that struck me as like, wow, in a book club.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

I asked her what these experiments typically looked like, and it's pretty simple. The participants will read or listen to a selected text. Sometimes there will be different parameters, like you have 30 minutes to do it, or it'll kind of shift you through one phrase at a time to keep you at a certain pace. And then you'll answer multiple choice questions or do something like write down everything you remember so there's a variance there as far as how difficult the testing is, whether it's looking for simple stuff or kind of taking the next step in inferring and applying more knowledge to it. It'd typically be something where one group reads something one week and then they come back the next week and listen to something. So you can compare the same people's scores in each modality. Anyway, we did our own small version of that.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, we did.

[Noah Friedman]

Now, obviously, a real study wouldn't just be me listening versus Devin reading. It would be us doing both of them.

[Manny Fadal]

Right.

[Noah Friedman]

And then testing. But this is more to prove a point and to be petty. So we just did a simple one like this. We both read a short story called the Lottery by Shirley Jackson. And then we took a short. I think it's definitely, like for a high school class.

[Manny Fadal]

Okay.

[Noah Friedman]

Multiple choice questionnaire on it.

[Manny Fadal]

So I think we should start with Devin's score.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. So Devin read. Let me pull up. Read the story using a visual modality.

[Devin Joseph]

So I got one wrong.

[Manny Fadal]

Wow, that's pretty good.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay, so wait, My score was 18. I got one wrong. One wrong. So I got a 95%.

[Rich Filoni]

That's great.

[Manny Fadal]

Wow, that's strong. A strong start. Noah, how did you do on your test?

[Noah Friedman]

Well, I got. I read the book using a, you know, auditory modality, and I got an 89%. I got two questions wrong.

[Devin Joseph]

Only two.

[Noah Friedman]

Only two.

[Manny Fadal]

So as kind of the arbiter here, I think it does mean something that Devin got one more question right than Noah. However, I'm thinking, like one question. To me, I don't know if I can attribute that to, like, reading being that much better of a method of information retention.

[Noah Friedman]

He might just be smarter.

[Devin Joseph]

That's true.

[Manny Fadal]

Devin might just be built different.

[Noah Friedman]

We have not thought about that.

[Manny Fadal]

This specific test. I don't know if this the results like stats wise, Devin wins. But I just don't know if I can really say which mode is retaining the information better than the Other one.

[Noah Friedman]

So I asked Dr. Clinton Lassell to explain what's going on in your brain when you're reading.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

There's two processes that are going on in our brain in what's called the simple view of reading. There's decoding, where you look at the text and you're able to determine what those words are. So you can see the word, the T, H, E, the letters, and then you know that means the. And then there's the comprehension aspect where you're taking the meaning from the text and creating an idea of what the whole text is about. That's called a mental representation, representation of the text. And that requires things like vocabulary and background knowledge and making connections from one idea to the next.

[Noah Friedman]

So that kind of lays out the two step process that goes on when you're taking in a text. I asked, you know, the big question, which is, what's the difference, comprehension wise, between reading versus listening?

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

They're honestly not that different. Obviously the decoding process isn't there. You're not having to look at words and figure out what those letters mean, but instead you're listening and you have to figure out those sounds, make words. Now, because we learn how to listen from infancy, but we learn how to read a little bit later in our lives, we forget that that listening process actually takes brain power and actually takes effort. So I think that's why a lot of times there's this misconception that listening to an audiobook is cheating or it's not really reading a book or learning about a content area. And that just doesn't seem to be the case. Definitely, when it comes to memory for what you read, there's really no difference between an audiobook and a visual book.

[Noah Friedman]

So you heard it there. Reading and listening are actually very similar, but listening is so much more natural to us since we've been doing it longer than we've been reading. Obviously now we kind of overlook the work that we do to turn sounds we hear into words with meaning.

[Devin Joseph]

That's fair.

[Noah Friedman]

Which I thought was really interesting.

[Manny Fadal]

And I suppose that's the other side of the exam that you two did, which is like, yes, Devin got one more question correct, but Noah still got 17 out of 19. So it's not like listening to audio.

[Noah Friedman]

If I came in and got 10 of those out of 19, I'd. I wouldn't be here sitting talking to you guys. I'd be like, we're scrapping this episode.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah, too shameful.

[Noah Friedman]

One thing she does mention is like, yeah, when we're talking about More complicated sorts of things. They do see more improvement for visual reading. Part of it is like, you're more likely to go back and reread things even if you don't think about it. So, like, on a page, you'll probably reread a few sentences, even if you don't feel like, oh, actually I'm going

[Devin Joseph]

back, or even pausing, right? Like, that's what I was thinking about when I was doing this test is like I was stopping and like, okay. And saying to myself, okay, gotta remember that character's name. Cause it probably will come up in a quiz and then reading again. Whereas if you're listening to the audiobook, yeah, you can pause and rewind, but it's like, it's a lot more complicated of a process.

[Noah Friedman]

She also said to where we're talking about driving and this sort of thing, there's obviously different levels of distraction. So it's like you can be distracted reading a paper book if, like, your kid's running up to you and bugging you all the time or whatever, you know, your phone's next to you and going off the same way where if you're driving and you're going down a new route that you don't know and you have a book on, yeah, you're probably not going to get a lot of it. But if you're doing your normal commute and it's like, streets are clear and you know what it is? You're not. Your brain is not even thinking about it at that point. It's probably about equal.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, okay.

[Noah Friedman]

So multitasking in general lowers comprehension and just takes longer to pick up that stuff. She also mentioned some other reasons that audiobooks could be a preferred option.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

I know also, there's a lot of functional diversity. So obviously, if you're visually impaired, your audiobook are going to be a better option for the most part. But there's a lot of other functionally diverse individuals. You know, things like having bad arthritis, Holding a book is painful. Listening to a book is not. There's a bell curve of how active and how much somebody moves in general. And, you know, people like my daughter don't have adhd, but they are just more active, independent. So people with ADHD who really do have a hard time sitting still, find that if they're doing some kind of multitasking that doesn't take cognitive effort, like folding the laundry or washing the dishes, that having that physical movement keeps their body calm so they're able to listen and really enjoy the book. Whereas holding a book, I Mean, there's some things you can do, like you can write a station stationary bike or do a stair stepper, but you're a lot more limited as far as your mobility.

[Noah Friedman]

She ended up bringing up about schools and reading loss, where, you know, I'm asking about all these different things, and she's like, yeah, well, like, especially when you're talking with students, like, well, ultimately you just want them to read however they're gonna actually read it, because that's gonna be better than if they just totally skip the assignment because it's only in a textbook. And she basically says, unless the lesson is about. Is about to teach a reading skill or something like that's the point of it, then ideally the student just has whatever option they're actually going to do.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

Is the learning objective teaching them something specific to reading, or is it about the content or the story structure or the plot or the background knowledge? If it's the learning objectives don't have anything to do with the actual modality specific language skills, then if an option is available, giving that option would probably be a good idea.

[Noah Friedman]

That's kind of her view as an educator. The more you read, the better you read. And that just goes for everything she says.

[Devin Joseph]

The more you read in terms of, like, actual reading or you're pretend reading reading.

[Manny Fadal]

The more you read, the better you read. The good doctor said, the more you listen.

[Noah Friedman]

Reading. Yeah. Yeah. So those are my main takeaways. So, I mean, I guess the big question is, does this change your. Your opinions on this at all? Manny, why don't you go first?

[Manny Fadal]

As we know, at the beginning of this, I was kind of ambivalent. I've never minded when someone. I guess I've never known, actually. So someone could have told me that they read a book and they could have lied to my friends.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, probably lied.

[Manny Fadal]

But if they were lying, I don't think I would have minded. Now, I do care, but I'm still in the middle because I don't. I don't like. I truly don't mind how people describe how they read things. So I guess that puts me on no aside, are you surprised by.

[Noah Friedman]

By what we found out?

[Manny Fadal]

I guess I was surprised to hear that listening to a book is essentially the same comprehension process as reading a book. And so if someone's listening to a book and they say they want, they read it. If they want to say they read it, I don't have any problem with it.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, I mean, I'll say even as a, you know, the audiobook advocate here, I was a bit surprised that the comprehension levels were essentially the same. I kind of expected that reading on paper would be a lot higher if there was gonna be a difference. So I was surprised when I learned that. That there's not that much of a difference. But yeah, I mean, even as someone who would listen, for me it felt like I definitely get more out of the page. But I'm finding out that basically if I actually focused on an audiobook, I would get pretty much exactly the same, which was instructive.

[Manny Fadal]

And then, Devin, I imagine that you still feel like people should be upfront about whether they read or listened, but do you feel any differently about like, that mode? Like, does it. Do you feel differently? Do you feel. Do you have more respect for people who listen to books knowing that they're getting the same information?

[Devin Joseph]

I think, see, I know I came up very strong.

[Noah Friedman]

He's walking it back.

[Devin Joseph]

Because I still feel very strongly that people who listen to audiobooks should just say they listen to the audiobooks. But for me, it was never about the comprehension part because like I said, there's like some of the stuff that I consume, I feel like the best is audio based stuff. Like, that's the stuff that, like, keeps my attention at times the best. Like, it's the mode that, like, I default to in terms of, like, entertainment. Right. So it was never to me about comprehension. It is interesting to actually see, like, okay, yeah, these are actually very similar. Like she said, there are, you know, obviously there's some specifics based on how distracted you are or caveats, I should say. But. But. So I'm not that surprised that comprehension is pretty similar. But I still feel like knowing that you should feel even more empowered to go up to someone and said, I listened to the audiobook. What are you gonna say? I didn't comprehend the information? In the same way, I do say

[Noah Friedman]

that as far as if I came across someone say, I'm having an open conversation now, and it comes out that you read an audiobook. I listened to it, yeah, I read an audiobook thing. I think now I'd be like, well, actually, first of all, you know, listen to this podcast. But also I'd probably be like, oh, you might be surprised to learn that it's actually, you know, the same. Same comprehension as far as comprehension.

[Devin Joseph]

But, you know, maybe for me, still there is something.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

About reading, the ritual of doing it. The fact that you can't do it while doing other things, you know, it still holds a special place in my heart. But yeah, you know, if someone Wants to come at you saying, like, you're an idiot because you listen to the thing. It's like, no.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, actually, I'm not. I'm an idiot for other reasons, perhaps, but not because of that.

[Manny Fadal]

I think the audiobook listeners of the world, after listening to this episode, will feel more empowered to be more transparent about. They don't gotta lie about how they consumed that book.

[Devin Joseph]

Yes.

[Manny Fadal]

And I think that's a beautiful thing.

[Devin Joseph]

Exactly.

[Noah Friedman]

How we change the world.

[Devin Joseph]

Before we end the episode. I think we need to do one more thing.

[Manny Fadal]

I think I know what you're talking about.

[Noah Friedman]

I don't think this is necessary.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, I think we need to call over it.

[Noah Friedman]

All right, let's do it.

[Rich Filoni]

What's up, guys?

[Noah Friedman]

Rich, do you remember last year we got burritos.

[Rich Filoni]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

And then I think we went bowling.

[Rich Filoni]

We did go bowling. I remember it vividly.

[Noah Friedman]

Do you remember what we talked about while we were walking from the burrito place to the bowling alley?

[Rich Filoni]

Yeah. We were talking about Oppenheimer. The movie had just come out. And I was saying, like, yeah, I just got the book. And you were saying, oh, yeah, I already read it. And I was like, wait, really? You had time to read all of that? And you're like, yeah, I just spent some time, like, really dug down into it and.

[Noah Friedman]

All right, so I'm gonna tell you. I'm tell you something now, Rich.

[Rich Filoni]

Okay.

[Noah Friedman]

And this is full transparency here.

[Rich Filoni]

Yes. Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

What would you say if I told you that, listen, I completed the book, but I listened to about 25% of it as an audiobook. What's your reaction there?

[Rich Filoni]

Okay, so it kind of seems like where you're going with this is that maybe Manny and Devon are trying to say that, like, you're a poser or something.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Rich Filoni]

But no, I actually. I think this is, like, innovative.

[Noah Friedman]

Yes.

[Manny Fadal]

Well, Rich, there was a moment of the conversation you guys had last year where you mentioned how hard it was to get through some of the chapters.

[Noah Friedman]

Oh, yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Rich was very impressed by how quickly you had finished it. He's like, wow, you read that in three weeks.

[Rich Filoni]

Oh, actually, wait. Yeah, now I'm being swayed. Yeah, hold on. Keep going, Devin. Keep going.

[Devin Joseph]

And Noah just said, yeah. And I remember the look on his face when he said it. I turned around during this part in the conversation because Rich was like, wow, that's really fast. You read it that fast, like, three weeks. And Noah was like.

[Rich Filoni]

I was impressed.

[Devin Joseph]

He was like, yeah. And I looked at Noah's face, and I could tell. I was like, it looked like, you were lying. I don't.

[Noah Friedman]

You know, I was like, wow, looks

[Devin Joseph]

like something's happening in his eyes. But I'm like, that would be a weird. Like, Noah's not gonna lie about reading a book.

[Rich Filoni]

I just want to clarify my position now, too, because I thought I am feeling a little bit manipulated. I'm feeling like you were kind of playing into that idea of you are the book guy in this. In this relationship here.

[Devin Joseph]

Yes, you are.

[Noah Friedman]

Answered a question. I answered.

[Rich Filoni]

I'm feeling a little betrayed.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, that's what I expected.

[Rich Filoni]

It kind of seemed like you were doing it for, like, nerd cloak. I think the real question that you're not getting at is if you're. If you are an audiobook person, are you going to be upfront about it?

[Devin Joseph]

If you're like, I'll tell you this.

[Rich Filoni]

Oh, yeah, this new book. Like, yeah, like, I read this, but it's like, no, you didn't. You listened to it and that's fine. Yeah, But I think people need to be upfront. We need to normalize being upfront about audiobooks.

[Noah Friedman]

Listen, in the future, in a scenario like that, Rich, where someone's prodding me for details on the speed and pace of my reading, I'm going to go listen. Do you have. Do you have a second? I'm going to say, sit down.

[Rich Filoni]

Okay.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm going to explain to you exactly which pages I read, what I listened to, and how.

[Rich Filoni]

Good, good. Thank you.

[Noah Friedman]

And I'm just going to come clean from now on. I'm not going to, you know, just.

[Devin Joseph]

We need more shoulders.

[Noah Friedman]

Say, you know, like, you know, I'm not that smart. You know, whatever. It's like, we'll just move on.

[Devin Joseph]

We need honesty in this country.

[Noah Friedman]

By the way, since we recorded, Rich has become an avid audiobook listener. All right, now stick around after the break to hear me, Manny and Devin reflect on this episode a year and a half later.

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[Devin Joseph]

I don't understand.

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Whoa.

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[Noah Friedman]

All right, so it's been, you know, about a year and a half since we released this episode. How do you guys feel about it now?

[Devin Joseph]

It's crazy how much has changed but also stayed the same. Yeah, I will say, you know what has changed? I think I've evolved slightly on this.

[Manny Fadal]

Sure.

[Devin Joseph]

We've done now another episode about reading, specifically why kids aren't reading and is that a big issue? And I think when we recorded that episode my thoughts were yes, as a society we don't read. That's bad. We shouldn't just pretend that audiobooks are doing the Same thing. We should also be reading more and. Sure, you can also listen to audiobooks. I think now I don't care what people do.

[Noah Friedman]

Take what you can get.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. I think, like Jason Reynolds talks about, like, you know, we should hold high goals for ourselves, but we should also be realistic about where we are. So it feels a bit like, yeah, I would love for more people to be reading in a, you know, traditional sense, but because it's so hard to get people to do anything. If kids are listening to audiobooks, that's great. If parents are listening to audiobooks, that's great. Just like more reading beyond social media and headlines would be great.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. At a minimum, I think, hopefully looking at it as more of maybe a gateway to more critical thinking in whatever capacity is a win. And we'll see. As far as the paper reading, what happens with that.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. Throughout the episode, the original episode, I was mostly ambivalent with a slight leniency towards people who listen to audiobooks, but said that they read something. But now I've got a new perspective on this from the lens of an author. So.

[Rich Filoni]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

You didn't have a book out then.

[Manny Fadal]

I was not a published author, and now I am. And it actually is striking how many people came up to me and told me that they listened to the audiobook. So I recorded an audiobook of my book, which was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. And so I have an appreciation for people who listen to the audiobook version because of how difficult it was to record it. Now I was presented with the option of, like, you know, Penguin Random House said that they could just hire someone to read the book, but I thought it'd be, you know, it's not that long of a book. I should be able to just go in there and knock it out. But it took like, three or four different sessions. I lost my voice at the end of each one. And so now if you're listening to audiobooks, I have a new appreciation for you because there's a lot of work that goes into actually laying those down on the tracks.

[Devin Joseph]

Wow. So your.

[Rich Filoni]

Your.

[Devin Joseph]

Your point of view now has shifted because you see the work that goes into making an audiobook.

[Manny Fadal]

Exactly. We need people to be consuming these. Otherwise the work will have been for nothing.

[Noah Friedman]

In some ways, it's harder than writing a book. I would. I would imagine. Would you. Would you agree with that, man?

[Manny Fadal]

It's more physically. It's more physically taxing. Okay, sure.

[Noah Friedman]

It's interesting because, yeah, a lot of the conversations we have are similar still as far as both kind of the comprehension and what we're getting out of something. And then also kind of the performance angle, which was kind of the. The kind of big, major difference, where it's like, if someone says something, I'm just gonna take them at their word and try to not, like, think they're hiding something or obfuscating something. And I. You see this not only with this one issue, but even just like, with anything about taste in general, where it's like, you see, people think that if someone likes an album that's not popular, then they're lying about it or something. Or like, oh, you're trying to look cool. And then you see 3D songs. Yeah. And then you see the opposite way, where it's like, oh, well, everyone likes. Likes Britney Spears. Like, if you say you don't like her, you're. You're just being an. And it's like, yeah, well, maybe. But people just like different things. It's like, I didn't like Disclosure Day. I don't think people who like it are lying.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

It's a taste thing.

[Manny Fadal]

You know, I can't wait to see that one.

[Devin Joseph]

Some people just have bad taste.

[Rich Filoni]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

I can't help that. And, you know, they should go support my movie theater.

[Rich Filoni]

You know,

[Manny Fadal]

some people have bad taste is the wrong lesson to take from what Noah was just talking about.

[Noah Friedman]

Some people have.

[Manny Fadal]

Some people have different taste.

[Noah Friedman]

Okay. And it's. It's their taste, and that's what's most important.

[Manny Fadal]

Right. You know, you can all hold unique taste.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

And that's. I love that. As far as reading this year, Devin, have you listened to any audiobooks or read anything of note, or are you behind or ahead of your goal for the year? I should say.

[Devin Joseph]

You know what? I've. I've evolved on this. I've stopped giving myself goals because I felt like I was not enjoying the books. I was just trying to get through them to hit my magical number of 20 or whatever it was. So now I'm just trying to make more time for reading.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

But not give myself a year end goal. But I did just finish yesterday, actually. Nan Dunham's memoir, Fame Sick.

[Manny Fadal]

How was it?

[Devin Joseph]

It's great. It's incredible. She just has no filter, which is incredible for a memoir. You know, like, she tells you everything. It would be a fun one to listen to as an audiobook.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Does she have an audiobook version?

[Devin Joseph]

I would imagine she does. So, you know, never say never. Maybe I'll throw that on at some Point.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm hoping she pulled a manion and read it herself.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, come on. If she's not reading her audiobook, then what are we doing here?

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

If we're transitioning this conversation into, like, how we used to do things, I was pretty impressed, honestly, that, you know, we, we didn't really go after each other as much as I remembered. Like, there was a lot of, like, okay, here's what Devin is saying, but I think this is what he means. And we were like translating our arguments to each other in real time, which I thought was surprising. I. I was expecting to press play on this and be like, oh, yeah, we probably screamed for 90 minutes.

[Noah Friedman]

Well, yeah, well, granted, we cut it down to 30 minutes out of probably. Yeah, two and a half hours total, where I think we, you know, we cleaned it up to make ourselves more presentable, I think, on all sides.

[Devin Joseph]

I do remember, especially those early episodes, our arguments were a lot more heated in those studios in Brooklyn.

[Rich Filoni]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So we did, I think. Yeah, we turned it around to make us look a little bit more mature than we were in the moment, perhaps.

[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

But we'll have to come up with some more. Well, if we get into some more fights like that again soon, I think.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. If you're listening to this now and you, you know, you have some ideas for us to debate about, definitely reach out to us in the email. Yeah, that's in the show notes. Or leave us a voicemail in the phone number that's in the show notes.

[Devin Joseph]

No, no, no, no.

[Manny Fadal]

No such thing.

[Noah Friedman]

No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatakedura. The show is created by Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. Theme and credits Song by Manny Mixing by Steve Bone Our guests this week are Dr. Virginia Clinton, Laselle and Rich Filoni. You can visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our newsletter if you have feedback for us or a question. Our email is mannynoadevinmail.com or you can leave us a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. Thanks, Bye.

[Manny Fadal]

Such thing.

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[Noah Friedman]

Ma Holo Hijita, I can't hear you. I'm at the stadium in Monterrey.

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[Virginia Clinton Laselle]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Noah Friedman]

Guaranteed Human.