Does micromanaging actually work?

Summary

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NO SUCH THING — “Does micromanaging actually work?”

Podcast: NO SUCH THING
Hosts: Manny, Noah, and Devin
Guest: Eric Baker (Harvard Lecturer, author/editor at Drift magazine)
Release Date: April 29, 2026
Episode Focus: Does micromanaging actually work, and what management styles are most effective?

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Episode Overview

The trio (Manny, Noah, and Devin) set out to answer whether micromanaging leads to better results compared to “free range” or hands-off management. They bring in their own experiences, dig into history and expert research with Harvard historian Eric Baker, and discuss practical listener questions on workplace management, from handling bad bosses to performance improvement plans (PIPs) and even body odor in the office.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Management Styles & Experiences

(Begins ~03:02)

• The team reflects on their own work and management experiences. Devin, who has managed Manny and Noah, tries to avoid micromanaging, preferring to “set someone up, give them what they need to do the job and then check in.”
  • Devin: “If you’re gonna micromanage me, why don’t you just do the job?” (03:52)
• Challenges of both hands-off approaches (especially for newer employees) and too-hands-on management are discussed.
• Noah: “We need expectations to be clear...someone who’s maybe doesn’t have a lot of work experience might just show up and be like, I have no idea what I’m doing.” (05:01)
• Consensus emerges that the best management is “free range with clear expectations and regular check-ins.”
  • Devin: “I would prefer free range with clear expectations and clear goals and like regular check-ins once a week. Yeah, that’s enough.” (09:24)

2. The Middle Management Dilemma

(10:05)

• Middle management is described as “like a hostage negotiator”—communicating between upper leadership and team members, often without real power to affect strategy.
• Devin: “A lot of middle management is just like playing politics… some people, when they get that pressure from upper management, the way they deal with it is by micromanaging and being super in the weeds.” (12:11)

3. Impact on Entry-Level Employees

(13:36)

• The group wonders if “free range” management is actually a disadvantage for entry-level workers, as a lack of hands-on guidance can leave some employees adrift.

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Expert Interview: Eric Baker, Harvard Lecturer

(18:13–38:07)

4. The History of Office Management

(18:33)

• Corporations and office work emerged in the late 19th century, bringing new challenges for organizing and monitoring white-collar workers.
• Efforts to apply “factory-style” management (strict oversight, rigid processes) to office work often failed, giving rise to office-specific management practices.
  • Eric: “In general, the large corporations come to start to dominate the American economy in the late 19th century...that leads to a demand for new ideas about how to manage these workers.” (18:47)

5. Development and Spread of Micromanagement

(22:58)

• Middle management’s rise (1920s–70s) was a response to communication challenges in big companies.
• Micromanagement often arose not from design, but from the difficulty of knowing what subordinates were doing.
  • Eric: “It’s actually kind of hard for people to figure out what their subordinates are up to. This requires a lot of checking in.” (24:15)

6. Shift to Leaner Organizations & “Cult of Executive”

(24:50)

• 1970s onward: Companies tried to eliminate middle managers for efficiency but often left unskilled managers to juggle both managing and productive work.
• Leads to celebrated “hands on” or “heroic” executives—sometimes resulting in excessive micromanagement from the top.
  • Eric: “You get these people where the ideas, they’re not supposed to be doing the old kind of bureaucratic managing style, but...there’s this kind of heroic cult of personality that develops around them...” (27:51)

7. Office Design and Oversight

(28:15)

• Office layouts (cubicles vs. open plan) often reflect current management philosophies—open plans facilitate more direct observation, sometimes geared toward more hands-on (even intrusive) management.

8. Does Micromanaging Actually Work? Is There Data?

(29:34)

• No consensus: Studies are contradictory and often depend on context and worker dynamics.
  • Eric: “In attempting to sort of evaluate empirically the efficacy of different management styles...the most important variable is the workers themselves...” (30:01)
• The famous Hawthorne Effect is mentioned: productivity can improve when workers feel observed, regardless of what management actually changes.

9. Remote Work and Monitoring

(31:57)

• The rise of remote/hybrid work has stoked management anxieties and led to new forms of surveillance, but many leaders find remote micromanagement less satisfying/effective.
  • Eric: “Bosses in general are dissatisfied with the degree of monitoring...they’ve been able to get from workers in a remote environment.” (32:18)

10. Global Management Cultures

(33:37)

• “American” management styles (thanks to business schools and consultancies) have spread internationally, but local cultural values still exert some influence.

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Research Roundup: When Micromanaging Can Help, When It Harms

(35:25–42:58)

• Six scenarios where micromanaging has a place (35:25):

  1. Organizational strategy is changing
  2. Starting a new project or endeavor
  3. New leader/employee/division onboard
  4. Failure to execute responsibilities
  5. Serious complaints/errors
  6. Department with poor results
  • Noah: “These are temporary measures…It’s not supposed to be ‘this is just how we work.’” (37:00)

• Good micromanagement is supposed to be time-limited and focused on structure and guidance, not perpetual control.

• Chronic micromanagement: Linked to organizational decline—high stress, low morale, less creativity, more employee turnover (“downward spiral”).

  • Quote (from “The Micromanagement Disease”): “Micromanagers, like many addicts and alcoholics, are the last people to recognize that they are hooked on controlling others...Good workers leave, more drones are hired, and the organization begins a downward spiral in skill, morale and productivity.” (38:36–39:49)

• Short-term benefits:

  • Can boost productivity and skills for new/inexperienced workers, prevent procrastination, keep focus.

• Long-term harms:

  • Increases stress, signals distrust, reduces creativity and operational efficiency, increases turnover (41:53–42:58).

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Lightning Round: Listener Questions and Advice

(45:47 onward)

11. How to Deal with an Incompetent Boss

• “Bake what you want [to do] into the things your boss wants—like hiding medicine in the peanut butter for your dog.” (46:48–47:11, Manny/Devin)
• Don’t “over-explain” to your boss; emphasize what they care about, skip irrelevant details (50:10–50:39).
• Sometimes, problems with one’s manager stem from higher up the chain; you may not be able to “work around” systemic issues.
• Often requires “managing up”—helping your boss help you.

12. How to Handle a Colleague’s Body Odor

• Mostly, the team says it’s nearly impossible to address directly, outside of vague comments or HR making “general announcements” (51:13–56:29).
• Private friendships might allow more directness, but even then, it’s sensitive.

13. How Much Time Do People Actually Work at the Office?

• Most <3 hours of real productive work per 8-hour office day; resonates with the group’s experience.
  • Noah: “The average worker is only productive for 2 hours and 53 minutes per day. That sounds right to me.” (58:15–58:20)

14. Are Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs) Effective?

• PIPs are increasingly common—mainly as legal protection for companies, not as real opportunities for an employee’s improvement.
  • Eric: “...when you’re put on a PIP, the message is...if you get fired, it’s your own fault. People aren’t, aren’t fooled.” (59:42)
• Survival rates are low: “10%–25%” get through and stay, and most who do end up leaving anyway.
  • Devin: “My experience with it is it’s mostly a way for HR to make sure that you have paperwork so that the person can’t say that they were fired unfairly.” (61:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Devin (on being managed):
  “If you’re gonna micromanage me, why don’t you just do the job?” (03:52)
• Noah:
  “We need expectations to be clear...someone who’s maybe doesn’t have a lot of work experience might just show up and be like, I have no idea what I’m doing.” (05:01)
• Eric Baker (on middle managers):
  “Your job is really about communication. Knowing what’s going on beneath you, knowing what people above you want, and sort of passing messages up and down.” (22:58)
• Devin (on micromanagement and drones):
  “Micromanagers love a drone. The places where I felt like, oh, it’s time for me to leave, it’s when it’s gone from ‘we need you to be creative’ to ‘okay, actually we just need you to be a drone.’” (40:33)
• Eric (on micromanagement studies):
  “The most important variable is the workers themselves...workers just liked feeling like their managers were paying attention to them.” (30:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:02: Hosts discuss their personal management philosophies and experiences (freelance vs. staff, clarity, and autonomy)
• 13:36: Whether entry-level workers struggle with low management oversight
• 18:13: Eric Baker interview starts
• 22:58: Origins of micromanagement and rise of middle managers
• 29:34: Is micromanagement effective? Research, Hawthorne effect
• 31:57: Remote and hybrid work: does it enable or challenge micromanagement?
• 35:25: Research on when micromanaging is useful (six scenarios)
• 38:36: The “micromanagement disease”—organizational harm, drone workers
• 45:47: Listener questions (bad bosses, body odor, PIPs, actual hours worked)
• 59:42: Are PIPs effective? What they really mean in practice
• 64:44: Severance offers as an alternative to PIPs
• 66:29: Practical advice: “If you are being put on a PIP, start looking for another job.”

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Conclusions / Takeaways

• Micromanaging is sometimes necessary—during change, crises, or with very new staff—but is damaging and counterproductive as an ongoing management style.
• Best Management Style: Set clear goals and expectations, provide autonomy, and check in regularly but not obsessively.
• PIPs seldom help genuine improvement—they serve more as a formality for firing.
• No one-size-fits-all solution: Effective management is highly context-dependent, and what works for one environment or level of experience may not for another.
• If you’re being micromanaged constantly, or put on a PIP, it’s probably time to move on.

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Final Thoughts

The episode’s blend of humor, personal experience, historical perspective, and real research delivers a nuanced (and entertaining) answer: Micromanaging can sometimes be tactically necessary, but it’s disastrous (for all) if done as a habit. The ideal is an open, trust-based environment where expectations are concrete but freedom is respected—and where creativity and morale can thrive.

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Further Reading

See the show notes at nosuchthing.show for links to the studies and books discussed in the episode.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey everyone. Manny here. Before we get to today's episode, I wanted to bring your attention to the no Such Thing listener survey. By filling out this survey, you will help us make this show better. You hear from us all the time, but now it's time to hear from you. Is it the case that we talk too much and you want to hear more from experts? Or do you think, shockingly, that we don't talk enough? Are the episodes too short or are they too long? Please consider filling out this survey and helping us make this show just a little bit better, even though that's a little hard to do because the show is already fantastic. You can find the listener survey in the show notes for this episode and in our newsletter at Nosuch Thing Show. Enjoy today's episode. I'm Manny.

[B]

I'm Noah.

[C]

This is Devin.

[B]

And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research this week. Does micromanaging actually work?

[A]

There's no Such Thing. No Such Thing. No Such Thing. No Such Thing. No Such Thing.

[D]

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[B]

So we got a question from a listener on management styles asking about micromanaging versus quote, unquote, free range, which gets better results. We're going to talk about that and a few other work related topics and questions, but let's start with our own histories. How do you boys feel about micromanaging slash management styles? And you know, we're sitting here with a manager ourselves. Yeah, Devin, Devin, you are a manager to both of us in different capacities. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?

[C]

Yeah, I guess I did manage you or attempted to, let's say. Yeah. What was your approach? Yeah, what is my management style? I would say. Well, I guess you guys can fact check me on this, but I would like to think that I don't micromanage people. I try to manage people the way I like to be managed. And I really hate being micromanaged. In my mind. If you're gonna micromanage me, why don't you just do the job? Like, I don't need to just be doing extra stuff at work just to stay busy. So in the situations that I have been in with managers who micromanage me, I often just say, well, instead of both of us watching this video and leaving notes, how about you just watch the video and leave notes and I'll just do something else. So, yeah, my style is like you sort of set someone up, you give them what they need to do the job and then you check in. I feel like it's been mostly successful. There are instances where you get someone who takes advantage of someone who's not micromanaging and then doesn't really do anything. Yeah, but I think those people are few and far between. And I don't think micromanaging a person who doesn't really do their work is helpful either because you're just taking the time that you would be doing something else to basically do the job as well. So I feel like if you have people on your team who you feel like you need to micromanage, you need to get them off of your team because you're just wasting your time by doing double the work.

[B]

Yeah, to me it's always just like we need expectations to be clear whether that's deadlines or how things should be when a deadline does come or something. Because I think someone who's maybe doesn't have a lot of work experience might just show up and be like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And then if their manager is not telling them, then they're like, well, what am I supposed to do, you know, so they need that hand holding, but hopefully that's only a temporary thing and then they're on their own.

[C]

That's a really good point. If you're not going to micromanage, you got to really set expectations and what's expected of people.

[B]

Because then as a freelancer, more recently, I've had jobs where I. I'm on call or something, and then it's like, I'm kind of just waiting for stuff and it's like, all right, I know this thing ultimately has to be due on Friday, but, like, do you want to see something before then? Or like, you know, and it's just on me to send it and like, I'll get it done and send it just so it's off my plate. But it's like, yeah, sometimes it's a little bit like, am I doing enough for you? Or it's sometimes more helpful for there to be some middle ground. Like, okay, let's get one cut on this day and then something else the next day.

[C]

And milestones.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Versus, like, it's really annoying, though, when it's someone every two hours being like, hey, do you think you'll have this edit done? And it's like, no, it's going to take four hours just to export it. So, you know, or whatever.

[A]

So we should note too that, like, we've always been working in media. There might be some fields where micromanaging might be more required. If you're, I don't know, a nuclear plant or something. Throwing that out there as an example. Yeah, we are in media and Devin had always, to me anyway, or to both of us, I imagine, been kind of a bigger picture manager. Like, you know, think about this. Over the course of these few months versus being in every edit.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Doing this, this and this. However, you know, there were other times when Devin wasn't our boss exactly. And someone else would come in and there was a lot more micromanaging. And that does make the work experience more strenuous, I think, especially because Devin was our manager and we were also friends or like, you know, or at least liked each other in the very beginning. And then other people will come in and you're just like, actually, I can hear that from Devin, but hearing the same exact thing from you is much worse because I don't like you as much.

[B]

Also, also, I say bias, not only in being friends, but I know Devin can. Like, so we're editing videos. I know Devin has edited videos and can do it. I. I've had managers who, as far as I know, haven't edited videos. They're coming to me with notes or feedback, which sometimes is valid. You don't need to be a video editor to say, this video looks horrible.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Obviously. But the expectations are maybe misaligned with the reality of the footage and what we have and the time and all this. And it's like, okay, Devin's not gonna give notes that are insane because he knows that's gonna take way more work or way more whatever. Versus, other times, I've had managers who feel like they're leaving notes because they need to say something to say they

[C]

did something to justify their job. Yeah.

[B]

Otherwise, it's like, I could have just sent this to your boss ahead of you, and we don't need to exist. So it's the middle manager issue.

[A]

And there are some people who are good at managing, and some people I just aren't. Like, I was in charge of someone at Business Insider once, and I realized how bad I was at being a manager.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they just. They just kept asking me, like, you know, what should I do today? Or, like, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? I'm like, just you. I don't know. Use your brain. I'm busy. Like, I really got other shit to work on. And that's terrible. Like, you're not. That's not. That's not. I immediately realized, oh, I should not be managing anyone, because, yeah, this is not a good dynamic.

[B]

Like, but I guess. What do you guys think as far as, if we're doing micromanaging versus free range, what do you think is more productive? And I guess this could be twofold for you, for an employee, and as a manager or a company side, what do you think actually would get better results?

[C]

I think free range with clear expectations and clear goals.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I've been micromanaged. I've been with managers who are more free range. I guess there's no advantages to me of being Margot managed. There are sometimes advantages to the free range thing, but free range with no clear goals or expectations is also very annoying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're kind of set up to fail.

[C]

Yeah. Because then you're just doing stuff in a bubble, and then your manager, who hasn't been around for a month shows up, and it's like, this is not what I wanted you to do. And it's like, well, you gave me no goals or expectations at all. So, like, here's just what we've been doing. But, yeah, I also hate managers. That are just micromanaging and looking over your shoulder. Because it's like you put me in this position for a reason. Like, let me do the job, give me some room to sort of figure this out. So, yeah, I would prefer free range with clear expectations and clear goals and like regular check ins once a week. Yeah, that's enough.

[A]

So it's kind of a happy medium between the two styles.

[C]

Yeah. If I'm going, you know, if I'm not doing what you expect in that week, let's talk about it then. But like every, like you're saying these hourly daily check ins, it's just like, it's unnecessary and it doesn't give people enough time to like figure stuff out and like, you gotta break some stuff and like do some things that don't work to figure out what does work.

[B]

Well said. Spoken like a true middle manager. I guess before we give our takes too, like Devin, it's interesting thinking as you know, because even middle managers say they have. I mean, I manage a team too at bi.

[C]

Yeah, you did.

[B]

And it's really frustrating because when you're the middle manager, you don't have the power to do anything. So. No, all you're doing is filtering down what's being passed to you. So they say, oh, we want more of this sort of thing, then you have to do that. And then the people below you are like, well, I don't really like that. And you're. Your hands are tied because you don't

[C]

even, you're not, you don't have, you

[B]

don't have power to decide really what you're doing. You're just, you're basically just a spokesperson. Yeah. The messenger. And it's like incredibly frustrating because no matter what you do, it's like your boss is probably getting stuff from someone way above them.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know that. And it just like, there's not the transparency of just like, hey, this is. No one wants to do this. Someone thinks it's a good idea. And that might not even correlate to numbers or anything. Yeah. Just a feeling. So it's. To me, I mean, that's almost a worse. I feel like it's almost worse to be micromanaged, say by, as a middle manager than as the like, lower level employee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where it's like you can't do anything except maybe micromanage or check in and do annoying things like that.

[C]

So much of middle management is like, like kind of being like a, like a hostage negotiator to some degree. Right. Of like, all right, nobody Wants to be doing this. All right, the people in charge, here's what they want. How do I communicate this to the people who are actually doing the work in a way that makes them not want to kill themselves? Yeah, exactly. Sort of do the work in a way and then how do I communicate their concerns to upper management in a way that they're going to be receptive?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's a lot of. Yeah. A lot of middle management is just like playing politics. And I think people deal with that in different ways. Like you were saying, Manny. I think some people, when they get that pressure from upper management, the way they deal with it is like by micromanaging and being super in the weeds.

[B]

Yeah. Manny, where do you fall on the micromanaging to free range continuum?

[A]

Yeah. I guess my only kind of intro to this conversation is that one time I managed someone and I was in favor of kind of a hands off approach.

[B]

Like, I'm not doing this because I'm

[C]

not really managing you. So figure it out.

[A]

You're technically under me, but you just go do your own thing based on the org chart.

[B]

Well, I guess, you know, obviously without getting into details, you feel like that hurt your employees, though.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like I, I.

[B]

So you think, I mean, you think really? Probably a medium, a happy medium would be good.

[A]

A medium would be good. And I remember at the time, I was like, I then told my manager at the time, like, I'm not. This isn't for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's actually bad for the intern.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then we fixed that situation,

[B]

eliminated that position.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, we got a solution. You're gone. I think we basically all agree.

[C]

Can I provide a counterpoint that I just thought of just in this moment.

[B]

Please. A real one.

[C]

I do wonder at times if younger or more entry level people suffer from the more free range form of management. In a lot of places that I've been at, the people who, like, you know, younger people who are just have more of that quote unquote entrepreneurial spirit of just like, I'll figure it out, I'll look it up myself. Yeah. Like, I'll just.

[A]

Getters.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Who just need sort of less hand holding tend to perform well because managers often don't have time to like, sit down with someone and like coach them, actually teach them.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's basically like entry level people are basically just kind of doing the job that everyone else at the company is doing, but they're just paid less.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

And are less experienced versus, you know, and I think in an Ideal world, that person is being coached more. They're, you know, they're getting more so like, hands on feedback. And there's more of a, like, easing you into the job. Yeah, like, that's not really how it work works nowadays. It's like, you sign up, you got the job, congrats, you're gonna do the job everyone else is doing. You're just gonna get paid less. And sure, you won't be as good at it, but I think the people who I've seen suffer from that lack of micromanaging are those younger people who don't quite have, you know, they're just like, not naturally good at the thing or they need more, like step by step directions on how to do those things. And those people tend to not last at the companies that I've been at.

[B]

Yeah. So we'll hear all about this and hopefully get some answers when we talk to Eric Baker, a Harvard lecturer who specializes in the history of labor and management. After the break.

[C]

All right, fellas, I need you to help me with a problem that I got. You know, usually we're the ones helping other people with their problems, but I'm about to go abroad and I want to watch Met games. Noah, how can I watch them?

[B]

That's a tough one. Maybe get a really large telescope.

[C]

I don't think that's the best way to do it, Manny. Do you have any solutions on how I could watch Mets games abroad?

[A]

I think I've got a slightly more practical solution for you, Devin. If you use NordVPN, you'll be able to change the location of your laptop's IP address and watch the content with no problem.

[B]

What about my privacy online? I'm worried someone's watching me.

[A]

First of all, no one is watching you, Noah. But in case someone was watching you, NordVPN provides you with privacy online, leaving no digital footprint by hiding your IP address. It's like wearing an invisibility cloak while you're surfing the web.

[B]

Sounds comfy.

[C]

So, Manny, I've heard about about these VPNs and how they're super slow. How do I make sure my Internet is not throttling?

[A]

If you want to use a VPN without slowing down your Internet, Devin, you're going to want to use NordVPN because whenever I use it, I don't see any buffering or lagging while I'm streaming my favorite content.

[C]

How do I get NordVPN?

[A]

Devin, if you or our listeners want to get the best discount off of your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com Instagram nst. Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan. And there's no risk because Nord has a 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the show notes. That's nordvpn.com nst by now I'm sure you've heard of Vibe coding. Everywhere I go, I'm always hearing someone talk about how they Vibe coded an app. It's everywhere right now. But here's the thing. It's not just for apps anymore. Now it's making its way into website creation. WIX has introduced WIX Harmony, a Vibe coder for websites that lets you type what you want and generate a site ready to use right away, complete with forms, payments, security and more. But don't worry, WIX Harmony doesn't require AI for everything. You can still click and edit anything manually or, or select an element and have Aria, your AI agent make updates for you. It's a smart solution to the frustration of repeatedly prompting AI just to make small changes. Try it for [e-mail] Harmony that's wix.com Harmony. Now get out there and vibe code to your heart's content.

[B]

We're back.

[A]

I'm Manny.

[B]

I'm Noah Devin. And we are joined by Eric Baker. Eric, why don't you introduce yourself?

[E]

Hi all, I'm Eric. I'm a writer and historian and an editor at the Drift magazine. A book called make youe Own how the Entrepreneurial Work Ethic Exhausted America, which is about how our culture of work came to be so toxic.

[B]

Our main question that we're talking about is how efficient various management styles are talking about micromanaging versus free range, that sort of thing. But first, can you explain kind of how the basic kind of standard corporate office structure came to be as we know it?

[E]

Yeah, this is a big question and a process that takes a long time. So I'll try to try to stick to the highlights. In general, the large corporations come to start to dominate the American economy in the late 19th century. And by the early 20th century, you could walk into the downtown of a city like New York and you would start to see some office buildings that are familiar to us today, cubicles, things like that. Because these big corporations, they need a ton of white collar work to make happen. You need accountants, you need people to manage all of this paper that's going back and forth, you know, transcontinental communication, lawyers, people doing advertising, all this stuff. And so increasingly they get concentrated in office buildings. And that leads to a demand for new ideas about how to manage these workers. I mean, it's important to remember that before all this happened, before this turn to corporate consolidation in the late 19th century, the fraction of the people who were doing what we today call white collar work was very, very small. You know, this was a predominantly agrarian society. You know, they increasingly start to get people working in, in manufacturing industry. But, you know, the office kind of emerges in tandem with the emergence of this new workforce who are working primarily with pen or pencil and paper at desks. That's kind of a novel historical development.

[B]

So now we have all these kind of, you know, pencil pushers set up. How were kind of the management styles first developed and then also shared like, how did they become so widespread?

[E]

Well, there are a range of ideas and one of the important things to remember about this history is there's what people thought they were doing or what experts advised managers to do and then kind of what the reality was actually on the office floor. So initially there was the kind of natural school of thought is to just say, oh well, we have these strategies and schemes that we've developed to manage industrial workers in factory settings. Let's just kind of apply that to our pencil pushers. But that often proves actually much easier said than done. These are huge, sprawling bureaucracies, often quite literally sprawling. There's a famous silent film from the 1920s of. There's a shot that just shows you row after row, a kind of almost surreal sort of endless sea of desks. Actually something a little different than an assembly line where you can line everyone up and monitor what everyone's doing and sort of dictate really precise steps and stuff like that. So in addition to this sort of advice or kind of expert schemes for managers, there also emerges what we might call a sort of self help literature, how to survive as an employee in these, in these settings. And reading that literature really showed me how many people were navigating with the reality that the bosses, in some cases they wish that they had more clarity about what they were supposed to be doing. And so there's really a kind of set of advice. This is part of the titular phrase of my book, make your own job. These people sort of cast adrift in these big bureaucratic settings where our image and often what the managers thought they were doing was this highly routinized sort of systematic kind of control. But really people kind of felt like it was not always obvious what they were actually expected to be doing.

[B]

And would it be fair to say Then that kind of this idea of micromanaging in some ways evolved from that, where it's like we don't really have an idea what's happening, but maybe we can check in a million times a day and try to find some sort of structure in this or. How would you kind of describe that?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

So in a lot of offices from roughly the 1920s to the 1970s, there's a trend of adding layers of what comes to be known as middle management. I mean, quite literally, they're like managers in between. That's because there's a big communication challenge in these workplaces. There's no slack, there's no email. How do you get a message? How do you create channels of communication between people who are doing some kind of concrete task that's involved in the functioning of one of these big firms and executive leadership? You have to create almost a kind of game of telephone, a set of managers talking with each other all down the hierarchy. And so if you're a middle manager, your primary expectation, your job is really about communication. Knowing what's going on beneath you, knowing what people above you want, and sort of passing messages up and down. When we think of the kind of stereotypical bureaucratic office environment, this often sort of emerges from this fact that it's actually kind of hard for people to figure out what their subordinates are up to. This requires a lot of checking in.

[B]

That kind of brings me to something we were talking about in our intro where, and I think this aligns with your book and kind of the entrepreneurial work ethic where someone will be a regular, maybe low level employee and then get a promotion, and then now they're tasked with being a manager without having been trained up on how to manage. Or maybe you're balancing, like Manny was at one point balancing doing his own work, but then also managing someone kind of on the side. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how has that onus been put on the employees to kind of figure it out as they go along on those kind of dual roles?

[E]

One of the big shifts, kind of after this period that I was just talking about, you know, in the 1970s, you start to see a lot of economic dysfunction in the United States, a lot of increasing anxieties about international competition, slowing rates of productivity and profit, and one of the sort of silver bullets that management experts arrive on, and that's often kind of enforced through private equity takeover and all this stuff is to strip out these layers of middle management that had been accumulating. You know, there's a real sort of shift in opinion. You know, the fact that we're employing all these people basically to pass messages up and down the corporate hierarchy, you know, that's, that's a huge waste. And so really the ideal firm is one in which there are people with managerial roles but everyone is doing something productive, everyone is creating value. This is one of the many kind of neologisms or whatever buzzwords that gets really entrenched in this period, which makes a lot of sense on paper but in practice again is kind of easier said than done because the actual tasks of management supervision, coordination, communication, these are non trivial. They take a lot of time. There's often a certain kind of skill involved. And so if your primary task, what you're being evaluated on is coming up with the next big product that's going to save the company from its global competitors or something like that, you're not necessarily, you know, as you say, you're not necessarily going to be skilled at the sort of communication and coordination side of management. Furthermore, one problem that sets in is that a lot of these shifts dripping down the middle management, this is often sort of justified or goes hand in hand with the emergence of the sort of cult of the kind of charismatic executive. So a lot of these people, they're being celebrated. You're the ones who are really creating value. You're so innovative, you're so creative. And then so often you wind up with people where the ideas, they're not supposed to be doing the old kind of bureaucratic managing style, but they frankly have such a high opinion of themselves. There's this kind of heroic cult of personality that develops around them and then so it almost pack fires. And you get people who really see it, this is their mission is to be involved, have their hands on hands on managing. This is another sort of buzzword that gets celebrated. And so you get these people. This is how we wind up with Elon Musk and Nano managing because he's so great, he has to have his hand in every pie.

[A]

Do you feel like the actual design of an office could be born out of some of these management styles? We've kind of as a society have been moving from cubicles into these more open office layouts where you can literally see what your employees are doing at all times. I'm just curious if you feel like that that's born out of different management styles evolving over time or maybe that's just cheaper to do it like that.

[E]

Yeah, probably a bit of calm A biticom B There's a great Book by the scholar Nikhil Saval, who's actually now a politician as a state senator in Pennsylvania or something. But it's called Cubed. It's a great book that's about how the design of the office evolved in. In tandem with these, with shifting ideas about what it meant to manage well, what the office should be. Because as you say, it makes sense if your vision is one where your employees are almost kind of like factory hands. It's more of an assembly line thing that's going to be reflected in the layout of an office. Whereas again, if you're trying to instead envision a workplace where everyone is productive and contributing and heroic, then you're going to try to have a less kind of visibly hierarchical sort of setup. And if you want your CEO to be hands on, facilitate that by literally removing the walls that would separate the boss from the workers. Stuff like that.

[B]

I guess to kind of just answer the main question from our listener about how effective micromanaging is versus, say, free range. I mean, do you have data on this, like both, I guess, for the employee and for the company as however they would measure productivity.

[E]

What stands out to me is not so much that the studies say one thing or the other. I have a colleague here in the history of science department at Harvard who's written a lot about nutrition science. And it almost reminds me of how whether or not coffee is good for you, according to the experts, that changes every week. And so I think there's.

[B]

It's good right now, they say only caffeinated, though.

[E]

Yeah, thank God for that. But I think it's similar in attempting to sort of evaluate empirically the efficacy of different management styles, in part because there are so many confounding variables. And in the case of management, the most important variable is the. The workers themselves. Going Back to the 1930s, there was a famous set of studies where according to the authors of the studies, and actually retrospectively, there's been some doubt cast on the extent to which they were actually reading the data honestly. But what they said was that they tried these different kinds of interventions in their work groups. Often this was physical stuff like changing lighting or, you know, rest break cadence, things like that. But they found that whenever they did anything, including stopping what they had been doing before, that this led to an increase in productivity. And their interpretation was that workers just liked feeling like their managers were paying attention to them. They liked feeling like there was a kind of project going on in the workplace, and then that ultimately mattered more than the details of what they were doing. And so this has again become kind of a folktale in the management world. But I think that there's. Ironically, it's that sense that what really matters is trying to make sure that workers are excited about what's going on in their work. You know, that has sort of taken on a life of its own as a. As a management philosophy. And so, you know, get endless pizza parties and whatnot.

[B]

Obviously, in the past few years, there's been more remote work and hybrid work, which I could see kind of going both towards and against micromanaging. As far as you're not here physically with me, so I might need to check in with you if you're my employee. What's your read on kind of how management has kind of adapted to the kind of new climate of work?

[E]

Initially, there was, I think, some hope. In fact, there were a range of efforts to come up with new technologies that would essentially enhance remote worker surveillance. And that's something that people still deal with. But, I mean, my read is that return to work is like the overwhelming push from the management or the executive class. Bosses in general are dissatisfied with the degree of monitoring and frankly, kind of compliance that they've been able to get from workers in a remote environment. And it's hard to say where the empirical evidence stops and these sort of stories that take on a life of their own begin. There's all kinds of other narratives that have emerged in the last five years about worker laziness or whatever, quiet, quitting, all this stuff. And again, the empirical evidence there was, was always a little dubious. So there's very much a strong perception among people who call the shots in a huge range of workplaces that there's something missing. They're not able to kind of ensure the same kind of results, and that ultimately actually getting people back in a physical environment, that's the only solution.

[B]

I'm curious, how work in the US as far as management styles, how does it compare to across Europe or Asia or elsewhere? Is there just super wide variance as far as expectations on workers or, you know, big.

[E]

Yeah, definitely, Yeah. I can't claim to know what it's like to work in China or, you know, in France or wherever, but I think that there's a tension because on the one hand, different cultures and different places, their histories will have an effect on basic expectations. I mean, so much of our culture of work is not just about what's happened in the workplace, but it's related to broader, you know, broader developments, you know, broader facts of American national culture and identity. And stuff like that. And that's, that's true anywhere that you're. You're going to go. But it's also the case that management expertise is increasingly a global market. The big consultancies, you know, operate globally. Management training, you know, this is really a global market. You know, there are people from all around the world who, you know, come into the top American business schools and learn the same things that American executives are learning. And so there, there is, I think, a. A certain degree of homogeneity or at least a certain set of shared touchstones or, you know, you can count on. On people to have heard the same stories or the, the same advice, you know, regardless of. Of whether or not they. They follow it. But, yeah, I mean, I've been, you know, since my book came out. You know, I did one interview with the Chinese paper and one interview with the German paper. And this sort of confirms my suspicion that this American culture of work has, to a significant extent, really gone global.

[B]

So I dug into some studies on micromanaging, and here's what I found. One report suggested six scenarios where micromanaging might be helpful. So here are the six. Count with me. One, the strategy of the organization is changing.

[C]

That makes sense. That makes sense. Hey, we got a pivot. We're doing this thing.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Now we're doing this other thing. I'm a micromanage. Because we all got to be on the same page about what we're doing.

[B]

We need to know what we're doing.

[A]

We've got to order the plan.

[B]

Similarly, too. A new endeavor is starting. So not the whole organization, but something, you know, you're working on a new project. We've all been there before.

[C]

Oh, have we? They love to start a new project.

[B]

Three, there is a new leader, a new employee, or a new division or unit. So again, similar. Some new. Something new is happening, okay. For an employee or leader fails to execute on an initiative, and as a result, the program lingers. So the micromanaging program lingers. Meaning. So, yeah, things are getting messed up. We got to figure this out. I'm going to watch you extra hard now. Five serious complaints or errors have occurred. What's going on here?

[C]

All right, that's true. You know, you have an employee makes a, you know, let's say a huge factual error and a report that goes out, a video. Going forward, you're gonna be texting and owing that.

[B]

That resources.

[A]

Yeah, give me access.

[C]

Where did you get. Where did you get this from? Where did you get this number from?

[B]

Oh, you got this from Business Insider. We cannot accept that.

[C]

X.

[A]

Yeah. Double check your sources on.

[B]

Write the opposite of that. All right. And six, the division or department has poor results again. We got to figure out what's going on.

[C]

Okay, so all these are kind of either new or things are going poorly.

[B]

Yeah. And I think the idea here is these are temporary measures, and the more stuff we'll talk about, we'll get into that. But it's not supposed to be. This is just how we work. It's supposed to be we're solving a specific thing. There's something new happening or something we need to change. Let's focus in and get this done, and then hopefully we can move on.

[A]

And the study found that micromanaging in these instances, that's where it might be helpful.

[B]

Um, so another quote from that report. This is me quoting. While micromanagement is sometimes necessary, doing it for too long can be detrimental, and managers should be attuned to the need to reevaluate their role and back off at the appropriate time. In the words of one management expert, quote, effective micromanagement, through setting structure, developing strategy and plans, creating reliable systems for others, and teaching people how to be independent thinkers can actually empower others to do their jobs with little involvement from you at all. Managers need to assess how often they are practicing in a micromanaging mode. If managers feel they are spending too much time in the weeds, they should consider whether they are hiring the right team members. I mean, who can disagree?

[C]

Every damn day I work with you too. Consider whether or not I hired the

[B]

wrong guys for Manny Noah doesn't.

[A]

We need a new Manny?

[B]

Another, more critical paper. You're gonna like this title called the Micromanagement Disease by Richard J. White, Jr. It is the micromanagement disease symptoms, diagnosis, and cure.

[C]

These guys getting creative with these titles? I like that.

[B]

If all you're writing about is management, you gotta. Gotta have some fun.

[A]

Gotta spruce up.

[B]

All right? The author of that said this quote, I'm quoting a lot here. All right? That means put some music under this. Okay, copy. At its more severe level, micromanagement is a compulsive behavioral disorder similar to other addictive patterns. People who are micromanaged generally do so because they feel unsure and self doubting. Micromanagers, like many addicts and alcoholics, are the last people to recognize that they are hooked on controlling others. Extreme micromanagers behave pathologically, refusing to accept personal responsibility or accountability, and create scapegoats to blame for their own mistakes. They seldom develop people, but instead exploit Them preferring to control results rather than inspiring creativity. Fearing competition, they rarely hire people with the talent, experience, and know how to challenge them. Micromanagers tend to dumb down their organizations as they hire drones. They must work even harder because drones take more work to manage than do thinking, industrious workers. It becomes a vicious cycle. Good workers leave, more drones are hired, and the organization begins a downward spiral in skill, morale and productivity. No organization can be truly efficient when it is constantly rehiring and training new workers.

[A]

I've worked at a few legacy media outlets and I know a lot of drones, I'll tell you that much.

[B]

Attack of the drones.

[C]

There's two things that stood out from that paper for me. Okay, number one, the idea that micromanagers, despite all the micromanaging that they do, despite as annoying as they are, then they will still scapegoat if something goes wrong.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

It's like you were involved in every single step of this process. You basically did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So if it fails, that's really bad. You need to be held accountable as well. But they love to throw people under the bus. And it's like, so what was the point of you micromanaging then?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Look in the mirror.

[C]

Crazy. Yeah, look at the man in the mirror, as Michael Jackson said.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

And then number two, this idea of drones, right. Like micromanagers love a drone. And I think that's where I've, in my career, you know, my young career. I'm a young man. So in the places where I felt like, oh, it's time for me to leave, it's when it's gone from a, we need you to be creative and come up with new ideas and blah, blah, blah, to okay, actually we just need you to be a drone. And then it's like, all right, it's time for me to drone up.

[B]

Nice. And now this last report I looked at is an actual kind of analysis where they look through different studies over decades of micromanagement. So it's called micromanagement A systematic literature review and future research agenda. So they looked at tons of studies over the years to report findings. They said there still needs to be more research, but here are some top line things they found. So micromanagement can generate positive outcomes in the short term, such as increasing organizational productivity, initiating organizational changes. Um, some found that supervisors, close scrutiny, excessive guidance and detailed feedback help inexperienced people develop their competence and improve their performance. It can help subordinates avoid procrastination and stay focused on their core tasks. So that's why micromanagement exists. Again short term and helping build people up to the skills they need.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As for negative impacts, it increases job stress, dampens psychological safety climate in organizations, signals distrust and disrespect for subordinates. And on the other hand, requests for frequent reports and attention to unnecessary details increase subordinates workload. Whereas strict imposition of rules, directives and arbitrary decision making process reduce their job autonomy. So again, just gives people less control of their own work, puts more stuff on managers. So they noted it adds stress for managers and leads to job run out for all due to these perfectionist standards. So managers and employees or subordinates all getting more stressed out. This leads to job dissatisfaction and more employee turnover. Which means now you're spending this time hiring new people, training them, onboarding them, doing the whole thing over again instead of just giving people the skills they need to work. And then everyone can, you know. Rising tides. Exactly. Then it reduces employee creativity and operational efficiency. So the bottom line. It's worse for the bottom line.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

After the break, Manny, Devin and I tackle some work related questions sent in by the audience.

[A]

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[F]

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[G]

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[B]

so we are back. I'm Noah.

[A]

I'm Manny.

[C]

Devin.

[B]

Yeah, so that was Eric Baker who walked us through management styles and more broadly, the history of work. Got into a lot. But we did have a few more questions from our listeners that we're going to get into now. Some are more advicey and then some are a little bit more in the weeds, but let's just go through them. Okay, here's the first one. How do I handle an incompetent boss? Now, Manny and I have both dealt with this in our history. How do we make it through?

[C]

You want a name or incompetent boss?

[B]

Yeah. Devin. No, but in all seriousness, yeah, this is not a. Not a laughing.

[C]

Yeah, no, this is. It's tough.

[B]

What do you guys think?

[A]

Honestly, sometimes in my previous job, you know, I wouldn't say it was incompetence per se, but it was definitely felt like an obstacle at times. And what I would do, I would have my own little strategies to kind of get what I want, which is like, you know, bake whatever I wanted into a verbal package of the things that he wanted. I don't know how to articulate it really, but you just had to be about, like, it's the.

[C]

Like you're putting the vegetables in a cake a little bit.

[A]

Yes, exactly. You're hiding. You're hiding peanut butter in the dog or. Yeah, hiding Dog food in the peanut butter.

[C]

No, dog medicine.

[B]

Like a pill dog, man.

[A]

I don't have a dog.

[B]

He has no idea what it's.

[C]

You gotta hide that food.

[B]

They don't want to eat it in the medicine.

[A]

So there's peanut butter. Right. And then there's medicine.

[C]

The things you would want to do is the medicine in this case.

[A]

Case, yes.

[C]

And you're covering it.

[B]

Right.

[C]

In peanut butter, which is what your boss wanted at the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He doesn't even realize that you got your medicine in there.

[B]

Right.

[C]

This is the stuff that you want swallowing it.

[A]

Because the, The. The goal ultimately was to have a video or TikTok or an Instagram reel that would get a lot of views. And so if I did this and we just skipped to the result where I'm showing him, oh, look, this kind of went viral or whatever, then he wouldn't have minded.

[E]

Right.

[A]

The process. So that's what I would do is, like, try to massage what I wanted into our communication. It was kind of cheeky, though. So, you know, it's not necessarily great advice for anyone who's dealing with this.

[B]

I'm curious. Have you ever, either of you had a situation where, you know, you're frustrated with your manager to the point where you're just going to go around them and complain to their manager or whoever's above them? Has that ever. Have you done that?

[A]

I don't know if I've ever done that. Mostly because everyone above them were also stupid.

[C]

Or. Or I guess that's read with them.

[A]

Or.

[B]

Or my problems with my manager are probably coming from the person above them.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I've actually had a few instances knowing, like, oh, actually, you're not the problem.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's.

[B]

When I was a manager, that's how I would. I kind of, you know, not to just pass the buck along, but I was. I would always try to be like, hey, I know this isn't ideal, but, like, this is kind of what we need to do and try to figure out a way to make. Make it tolerable at least.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And be like, listen, trust me, I don't. I don't want to make a video on how Tom Brady makes and spends his millions. You know, this is not my choice, but this is what the. People need it. Someone needs it.

[C]

You know, So I don't know if I've had. I don't think I've worked for, let's say, a stupid boss.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I work for people who are incompetent in that they don't want to learn what the team is doing or understand what the team is doing. So therefore, their suggestions aren't helpful or the goals they give are unrealistic. Right. And that's in some ways tougher because, you know, the person has the capacity to understand. They just are choosing not to.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I feel like I've had bosses that are kind of like Donald Trump to some degree. Right. Where it's like, Trump to me is like, I don't think he's a dumb person. I think he just chooses not to understand certain things or to learn about certain things.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's. To me. Yeah. That's more frustrating than if you were just dumb. It's easier to navigate because you're just stupid. So let me just work around you. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's harder when you have somebody who could be competent and is smart but chooses not to learn and to understand because it requires more work. And a lot of your job becomes just educating that person on what you're doing. And because they aren't learning each time you're educating them, you have to. To keep reeducating them every conversation that you're having. So it does suck. But I guess to Manny's point, I think the way you deal with it is you gotta kinda learn what they care about.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And when you communicate with them, make sure you emphasize what they care about.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But you also don't need to tell them the things that they don't know or don't care about. Like, don't waste your time over explaining things that they're not gonna remember and they didn't. They, you know, aren't going to affect.

[B]

Valuable.

[C]

Yeah. It's like working. It's. It's a bit of. It sucks. But you. You start. You have to manage your manager a bit and just give them the things that they need to leave you alone.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

If you've got, like, you know, some strategy you want to employ at work for your job, the strategy A, which your boss wants to do, and the strategy B, which do you want to do? Okay. We're going to go from point A to point B over the course of a few months, maybe not so drastically. And then, you know, you're just kind of slowly pushing the needle or just inching closer to what you want by, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doing it in the.

[B]

Why don't we try this. This piece out?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Try this thing out slowly. Yeah, that makes sense. All right, here's another one. This one.

[E]

I don't know.

[B]

How can I politely let my co worker know their body odor is horrendous. Something else me and many have dealt with.

[A]

We have dealt with this. We literally have.

[C]

Wow. All three of us thinking of.

[B]

Well, now I am.

[A]

We. I mean, what we do. We basically did it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, just never brought it up. I mean, you can't really, you can't. Like, what are you going to do, complain to hr? Yeah, I guess.

[C]

Yeah, I would. Yeah, I guess HR could say something.

[B]

I don't know if they need it. And like, what, I mean, what are you going to.

[C]

You can make a general announcement.

[B]

Yeah. That, that, that's the only way to try to do it is going and say like, I'm wearing cologne now.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, don't we all love wearing cologne? Like, hey, what do you.

[A]

Hey, you.

[B]

What do you wear? Like, plus, there's no way to do it.

[C]

Yeah. What the odorant are we all using?

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Plus sometimes you detect someone's odor and it's not clear that it's because they're not hygienic or something. Like sometimes I'm like, that is something else.

[C]

And that might be a mix that may be medical.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

There's a medical grade issue.

[A]

This is military grade stink.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The doctor needs to go in in

[A]

the Hazmat suit, Savannah syndrome style. No, there's nothing you can really do in that situation. Yeah, it's like stay away from general.

[C]

I think you could make a general announcement around. Hey guys, let's all make sure, you know, when we're coming to work, we're presentable.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, make sure that we're taking care of ourselves.

[B]

It's.

[C]

We've gotten general complaints in the office about smells, but you can, you can't even legal to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like.

[B]

Because I mean, I'm even thinking like, like, yeah, let's say it was one of us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like right here, right now. It would take a lot for me to be like, hey, Devin, let me pull you. Like to pull you aside and just be like, hey, like, I, I can't even imagine doing that. Well, in the nicest way.

[C]

Let me say this everybody, because we, if we smelled it would be a one off. Oh, well.

[B]

Yeah. My boy, my boy knows jog over here.

[C]

He must have forgot his deodorant. We've all had days where it's like 11 o', clock, you know.

[B]

Oh, listen, I'm one one armed right now.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I need help.

[A]

Sometimes you forget.

[C]

Oh shit. I didn't hit, you know.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

So a One off.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That was excusable. If you were showing here week after week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What would you do?

[C]

We might have to.

[A]

Just because we know you so well,

[C]

we might have to be like, hey,

[A]

man, different if it's a co worker.

[B]

Well, yeah, exactly.

[C]

We have to make say, like, hey, man, I don't know what's going on, but, like, you kind of stink.

[B]

How would you. Let's. Let's.

[A]

That's role play.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So someone. You presumably like. And me if it was you. So let's say we come. We recorded for an hour. We're taking a break, and now we're gonna do another session right now.

[C]

And this is like. This is about three or four sessions in a row that you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So let's say it's not my first time.

[C]

Not a one off.

[B]

Something's going on.

[A]

We would probably couch it in a joke, like.

[B]

No, let's do it.

[A]

Just. We're gonna be real with you for a second.

[B]

Would you take me out of this room or would you do it in front of.

[A]

Do it right here on the camera.

[B]

Yeah, I'm recording.

[A]

Yeah, we'll get Connor do it.

[B]

Yeah, that'd probably be. Go smoother.

[A]

Connor comes in, like, we. We have a new policy.

[B]

Give him a script. Yeah.

[C]

Everyone coming into the studio must wear deodorant.

[A]

I'd be like, have you been coming here straight from the gym or something? Like, kind of joke about it and then maybe get to it.

[B]

That's actually.

[A]

Thankfully, we've never had to do this.

[C]

That's. I think my approach would be go through Julia, your wife.

[B]

Wow, you're gonna mess up your life.

[A]

That could be offensive.

[C]

No, because if.

[B]

Wait, well, how. So explain.

[C]

Okay, so we're coming. If I'm hanging out with you week after week and you just start to stink, I would hit Julia up and be like, hey, I don't know if you noticed. I don't know if he has something wrong.

[A]

You live like this.

[C]

But Noah's been smelling lately.

[A]

But then what if Noah found out that that's how you did it? He might be like, why didn't you just talk to me about it?

[B]

Well, I actually do.

[C]

See, I'm going through her idea because she keeps saying something.

[A]

Oh, in case there's something bad happens.

[C]

Yes, because why all of a sudden,

[B]

you know, like, I'm. I'm going through it.

[A]

You then clear that it's not something medical. And then.

[B]

Or like, you know, something horrible happens.

[C]

Nothing's happening at home. Then. Yeah, I bring it up but she's like, oh, actually that's good.

[A]

It's sensitive.

[C]

What happened is he can't shower because she's taking X, Y and Z medicine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

I'm gonna shut my mouth.

[B]

That makes sense. Slash, then she could tell her yes. And then she could easily be like, yeah, say something. Yeah, like I'm married to her, so yeah, I know. Do we think I got that?

[C]

Bro, you got to put on some deal.

[B]

But yeah, but in a normal workplace, you're not going to be able to reach out to their spouse.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

We can't talk, so this is not that helpful.

[A]

Do we, do we think you know the people we're talking about? What is the likelihood that they know and they don't care now?

[C]

People get nose blind to it. Yeah.

[A]

Just they're in their own.

[B]

It's your own thing.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

You basically can't say anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You can ask HR to make a general announcement about making sure people are coming in.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise the only thing you can possibly do is have a vague conversation about deodorants and colognes and hope that they're

[C]

going to listen and maybe hope they overhear it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right.

[B]

Here's what I looked into a little bit.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I'm curious what your guesses would be. How much of the day do people with office jobs actually spend working?

[C]

So the total amount of hours, let's say out of an eight hour workday

[A]

that people are actually working, we're talking about in the office. In office. So let's say in office, if I'm

[C]

being generous, I would say four and a half to five.

[A]

Wow. I'm lower than that.

[B]

Yeah. What would your guess be?

[A]

It also depends on where I think. I've only worked in places that are super social.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That was like probably my favorite thing to do in the office is like leave my desk and go bother people. Go to the other floor, see what's up with this guy. I would, I mean, it depends on the day, obviously. Like if you're on a deadline or something, but probably like three hours. Three out of the eight hours I'm actually working on something. Yeah. So it's true that like the other hours, like they are kind of like necessarily like you are in a meeting. Does that count as working on something

[C]

if you're not doing work related stuff? No.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was talking about, I don't know

[B]

how the survey was done. So I'm, I'm curious how that would factor in. I would guess no. But yeah. So this is from I'll say three to four.

[C]

Let me be clear. This is not me.

[B]

You work eight hours a day.

[C]

I work more. I'm doing.

[A]

Because I'm doing like he works 10 hours in an eight hour shift.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm doing. I'm doing three or four jobs simultaneously.

[A]

Yes. So it compounds. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You have a multiplier on yours. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

All right. With that in mind, this is a survey done in the of UK office workers by vouchercloud.com but every. Basically this is one of those things. Some place does some survey and then for now almost 10 years, every article is citing this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And who knows how good it is. So with that grain of salt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The average worker is only productive for 2 hours and 53 minutes per day.

[A]

That sounds right to me.

[B]

Which sounds right to me. Yeah. And to be honest, that's so.

[A]

Especially on these computers. Like if you have a computer, you're on with access to everything. You remember when we were working right next to each other, like we would be bullshitting for hours. I remember when that Popeyes chicken sandwich came out, we left the office.

[B]

We lost three hours. Yeah.

[C]

This is not good because during this time. So this is not.

[B]

It's funny too because that's. We could have easily done a video about.

[A]

Yeah, I know. That could have been work for sure.

[B]

So then there's a Work Life survey. They did a survey. It says in 2023, 45% of workers said they work four hours or less a day. Yeah. That's including like, that's talking about Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Meta employees. So those four are all in kind of the 33. Yeah, 33 to kind of 40% range saying they work four hours or less per day. So how effective are PIPs? A PIP is a performance improvement plan.

[E]

Mm.

[B]

Which a manager gives to an employee if they're maybe not doing so hot. It's kind of a little. Usually kind of milestones and things to check in on to, you know, and usually it's kind of like, okay, we have three months or six months to meet these measures. You're basically kind of on thin ice, essentially.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Meet these expectations or you're going to be.

[B]

We can get ready fired. Here's what our guest Eric had to say.

[E]

That's a great question. I mean, the idea that the most effective way to manage somebody was by clearly communicating a set of expectations and then kind of leaving them to figure out how to meet them. That's an idea that really goes Back to the 1940s, 1950s. Management by objectives and self control was the neologism when that became a tool for discipline. I'm not exactly sure. It's so clear that when you're put on a pip, the message is like, if you get fired, it's your own fault. People aren't, aren't fooled. That's one of the biggest lessons that I've learned in diving into this history is that bosses can come up with all kinds of ideas for trying to get their employees to imagine that something else is going on in the workplace and what it really is. But at the end of the day, people understand when they're being manipulated or taken for a ride. And rather than sort of Mitt Romney style, I enjoy firing people kind of culture. We have the sense of, no, we did everything to help. And again, I think that's a response to an increasing sense of empowerment or self assertion among my co workers.

[B]

Have you guys been on PIPs?

[C]

I have not been on a PIP. I have managed people who have been put on PIPs. So I would have their manager complaining to me that this person is not performing. I would talk with them, I would talk with the manager, I would talk with hr. And a certain point we'd say, okay, well this person, if they don't improve, needs to be put on a pip. So I would be part of the conversation. But I was never the person initiating it.

[B]

Got it.

[C]

My experience with it is it's mostly a way for HR to make sure that you have paperwork so that the person can't say that they were fired unfairly.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Part of it is in regards to unions. Part of it is just like companies being afraid of being sued. So it is like it forces you to document feedback.

[B]

There's a Wall street journal report from 2024 by Lauren Weber and Chip Cutter about the rise of PIPs. And they're increasing. And they have, you know, they have an example of one I'll put in the show notes for people to look at so you can kind of see what they look like. But there's some data in this story that in 2020, 33.4 people for every thousand workers had documented performance issues according to a software firm. And in 2023, that number went up to 43.6. So that's a pretty high rise in just three years. Then there's a bunch of executives saying these are basically made to get people out and have a paper trail and just be safe on that way. This, this one guy, Larry, he works at a software company. He estimated that 10 to 25% of employees who get put on PIP survive the process.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow, that's so tough.

[B]

And it seems like from reading this article, it's a mix of even if people get through, then a lot of times they'll just decide they want to leave anyway. So it's kind of like, you know, you're not wanted basically. So whether you're a good worker or a bad worker, however you want to define that, it's like, yeah, probably time to go. Like you can read the writing on the wall.

[C]

I would say most of the pips that I have seen, it's very clear that the person does not have the skill set or drive to do the thing that they're being tasked with doing. So you're giving them goals knowing they're basically they're not to hit it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But to this point, yeah, it's providing a paper trail. It's getting rid of some of the ambiguity around. Oh, my manager didn't give me this feedback because a lot of PIPs I've been involved with HR is involved in the check ins from week to week. So it's like there's a third person involved to be like, oh no, your manager did say X, Y and Z. But it does, to Eric's point, it puts a lot of the onus on the employee to improve their performance. Right. It's seen as like, hey, we as a company has done all that we can do. It is now on you to, you know, basically pull up, you know, pull up your, your boots. But what is this?

[B]

Bootstraps.

[C]

Pull up your bootstraps.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And get your shit done. Because we are giving you all the tools and, and we're being very clear about what your goals are and if you don't hit it now, there's nothing more that we could do.

[B]

Yeah, this guy. Yeah, there's a guy in this article who worked at Cisco and is like an HR guy. He said they did a five year look back at all the PIPs and found that 90% of people who were placed on them, whether or not they survived that plan, left within a year. Anyway, he said that he now gives two envelopes. One is a PIP and the other is just a generous severance offer with a, you know, separation insurance or a separation agreement and COBRA and all that stuff. And 75% of the time people take that second option and just leave to get out of the whole process.

[C]

That's really smart and it's such a better way to do it because it just wastes everyone time. Everyone knows what's happening. Like Erica saying, no one is fooled by the process, but it just.

[B]

I like that option. I like the idea of having the option.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

It's just like, hey, we know we were going to sort of like, do this stupid process for three months and then fire you anyway. How about we just give you six months or nine months severance and, like, just go find something else that's better for you and, like, we could just move on.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, forget it. And then. Yeah. Then they. They talked to another guy who worked at a law firm who was an employee who was placed on a pip, and he. He created a document kind of point by point in response and shared it with the HR people and the manager, not disputing anything, but just outlining kind of specific things he planned to do to actually meet what they asked for. So that way, I think it led to a little bit more clarity to like, okay, is this actually viable? How can we actually do it? And was a little bit more proactive beyond just, like, trying to do these vague tasks. So that's. If you want to. If you do get one of these plans and want to.

[A]

You want to stay, try to stay.

[B]

This seems like a good way to do it where, like, be vocal and try to actually argue back as much as you can. I mean, it's tough.

[A]

There always seems to be.

[B]

And it's not going to work.

[A]

A couple of warnings at least before the PIP comes. It's not like it comes out of nowhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I've seen people take that approach of trying to be, like, really specific about, okay, I'm gonna do. Yeah, these things. At the end of the day, if you don't hit the goals, it doesn't matter if you wrote out how you were gonna plan to if you don't do it. Because then it just becomes. The conversation becomes, oh, you need your handheld to hit these goals, and we need somebody which indicates not able to do it.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Who can just do it. And you're taking too much of our time and effort. Whereas the rest of the team doesn't need this much handholding. Yeah. My advice to you would be, if you are being put on a PIP to start looking for another job, also, you know, try to, you know, hit your goals so that you could stay a little bit longer.

[B]

But all to say they're effective in a sense.

[C]

Effective at getting audited.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're not effective in getting you better at your job.

[C]

They're effective at removing from the company low performers.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Good luck. No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Concept. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatakeder. This show is created by Manny Fadow, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. Theme and Credits Song by Manny Mixing by Steve Bone Our guest this week is Eric Baker. Visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our newsletter where you can find links to some of the studies mentioned in the episode and more. If you have feedback for us or a question, our email is mannynoadevonmail.com or leave us a voicemail by calling the

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And please take the NST Listener survey so we can find out more about what's working and what's not working and according to you the listener. And if you do like the show, please leave us a five star review wherever you listen and share with a friend or family member so we can grow. All right, that's it. We will be back next week with a new episode. Bye.

[A]

No such thing.

[C]

Hot take.

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You can disagree with someone and not hate them. I know. Really groundbreaking stuff, but lately that line seems blurry because hate is rising across communities in all kinds of ways and Jewish communities are getting a lot of it right now. You don't have to agree with people, you just have to not be awful. The Blue square is a simple way to say I'm with you and I don't tolerate hate of any kind. Go to bluesquarealliance.org, get a pin, share it and stand up.

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