Is recycling a complete scam? (PART 1)

Summary

NO SUCH THING – “Is Recycling a Complete Scam? (PART 1)”
iHeartPodcasts & Kaleidoscope
April 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Manny, Noah, and Devan, joined by guest co-host Naima Raza (journalist and creator of “Smart Girl Dumb Questions”), dig into the provocative question: “Does recycling even work, or is it just an elaborate feel-good scam?” They candidly share their personal recycling routines, discuss cultural differences, and dive deep into the origins and efficacy of recycling—especially regarding plastics—with environmental historian Davis Allen from the Center for Climate Integrity. The episode combines humor, skepticism, and serious reporting to challenge listeners’ assumptions about personal responsibility, plastic waste, and the role of “big oil” in framing the modern narrative around recycling.

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Hosts and Guest Introductions

[02:42]

• The main hosts introduce the week's question as one sent in by listener Liz:
  "Does recycling do anything? Or does it just make us feel better when we put things into the bin and send it away?"

• Naima Raza joins as guest co-host. She previously produced a New York Times video titled “The Great Recycling Con,” and notes that even her journalism hasn’t drastically changed her personal recycling behavior.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Experiences and Skepticism

[03:57–13:49]

• The hosts discuss their own inconsistent recycling habits, describing recycling as “annoying,” confusing, and often seemingly futile:
  • "I think my overall emotion around recycling is I think it's fake. I don't think it's actually happening." –Devan [05:30]
  • “My apartment building does not sort anything. So I'm not sorting stuff because y'all don't sort stuff. Somebody will figure it out at some point... or not.” –Devan [04:58]
• The group notes guilt, inconvenience, and lack of transparency: Do their efforts matter if they suspect the bags all end up together in the landfill?
• They compare attitudes and practices in the US to stricter recycling and composting mandates in Europe and Australia.
• Notable Moment:
  • “You get a plastic container from takeout and throw it in the regular garbage...you just killed those, really shouldn't do that.” [04:35]
• Difference between how things “should” work (separate bins, sorting) vs. observed reality—many buildings and cities do not actually enforce proper recycling.
• The group admits most of their confidence in recycling is a holdover from childhood, “the golden age” of Captain Planet and magical thinking about recycling's effectiveness.

2. Public Perception vs. Reality of Recycling

[16:59–43:14]

• Manny interviews Davis Allen (environmental historian, Center for Climate Integrity), who provides expert commentary and empirical context:
  • Key thesis:
    “Recycling as we know it is basically essentially a PR campaign made by and sponsored by Big Oil.” [17:31]
  • Biggest misconception:
    “The idea that because of recycling, a disposable consumer economy is not a major environmental problem...when really any disposable product is ultimately more of a straight line [to the landfill or incinerator], not a circle.” [19:01]
  • Aluminum is one exception—recycled efficiently “up to 99%”—but plastics recycling barely works at all; most plastic is “downcycled” into low-quality products (like trash cans or crates) and cannot be reused in higher-spec applications. [21:07]
  • Economic incentive for plastic-makers is lacking; “it’s cheaper to produce new plastic than to recycle old plastic.” [21:59]
  • “We have been lied to and manipulated...this is not the fault of the people using the plastic...the recycling thing is a distraction.” [36:41]

Notable Quotes

• “The recycling campaigns really tapped directly into that impulse and took advantage of them to make it seem like an individual person putting their plastic item in the bin was resolving the deeper contradiction that, of course, recycling can do nothing to address.” – Davis Allen [34:05]
• “I’m amazed since we published this report...people basically confessing their plastic use to me...I’m like, none of us can avoid using plastics. They have made it virtually impossible. The recycling thing is a distraction.” – Allen [35:57]

3. History and Origin of the "Recycling" Narrative

[24:06–28:13]

• Plastics started as durable lifelong products prior to WWII. Industry shifted to disposability for profit.
• Noteworthy: Following tragic child deaths due to dry-cleaning bags in the 1950s, industry response was PR spin—blame consumers for not disposing of plastics properly.
• The 1970s: Earth Day triggers environmental awareness and pressure on industry. At first, solutions are dumping and burning. Industry’s own 1970s research concludes plastic recycling is not feasible, but over time, they focus on selling recycling as a solution.
  • “The plastics industry launched this public relations campaign...blamed the mothers explicitly of the children who had died [for not throwing away the bags].” – Davis Allen [24:59]

4. Shifting of Blame and “Greenwashing”

[32:10–37:52]

• Recycling campaigns served to shift guilt and responsibility to individuals, distracting from the producers’ and policymakers' accountability.
• Allen notes classroom education and children’s media (including implicit references to “Captain Planet”) as key to spreading this narrative.
• “Wish-cycling”: People and even countries, assuming things will be recycled if put in the bin.

5. Plastics: What Are They and Where Do They Go?

[22:25–23:39]

• Plastics are not one material but “thousands of different chemicals” (“99% currently from fossil fuels”).
• Most disposable plastics are custom-engineered for single-use.

6. Recycling Rates—The Brutal Numbers

[39:54–43:14]

• US plastic recycling rate: now “probably around 5-6%” [40:48], compared to aluminum's much higher rate. At its best (including plastics sent overseas), the US plastic recycling rate never exceeded “9%”—and that was inflated. [41:13]
  • “If you're gonna tell a lie, you know...make it like 99[%].” – Naima [42:32]
  • PET bottles (water bottles): ~33% recycled. Polypropylene (plastic #5): “1% or even less.” [42:17]
• Past US practice was to ship plastics to China (where much still ended up discarded/burned), furthering the “wish-cycling” delusion on a national scale.

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Memorable/Notable Moments & Quotes

• [17:31] “The main kind of thesis is that recycling as we know it is basically essentially a PR campaign made by and sponsored by Big Oil.” — Manny
• [19:01] Davis Allen: “The biggest misconception is that the whole idea of a circle when really any disposable product is ultimately more of a straight line…with lots of environmental costs in that process.”
• [33:40] Davis Allen, on blame: “Shifting the blame to individual consumers was a really effective way of taking attention off the producers...”
• [41:18] On plastic recycling numbers: “The recycling rate is close to 5 to 6%...The highest it's ever been was 9%—and that number was deceptively high for a bit.”
• Reflective moment:
  • “It’s so low that I can’t believe how much time we’ve spent thinking about this.” – Manny [43:14]

Lighter Moments

• Naima proposes “reduce, reuse, recycle” as a relationship/dating guide. [44:19]
• Group jokes about “golden age” recycling and their complete lack of knowledge about what actually happens to sorted recyclables.
• “If it turns out it’s not doing anything, then I’m not recycling… I’m just going to throw it in the garbage...black bag.” —Devan [13:25–13:31]
• Closing: The team looks ahead with a mix of amusement and dread to part two, where they visit a recycling center and confront pro-recycling advocates. [46:28]

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• [02:42] Listener Question Introduced: “Does recycling actually do anything?”
• [03:25] Guest Naima Introduced
• [04:53] Hosts share personal recycling habits & skepticism
• [10:00] Cultural comparisons: US vs Europe/Australia recycling
• [16:59] Interview with Environmental Historian Davis Allen Begins
• [19:01] Debunking myths: the “circular economy”
• [21:07] Why plastic recycling fails – quality issues & economic incentives
• [22:25] Plastics 101: What, where from, why so prevalent?
• [24:06] History: From durable material to profit-driven disposables
• [26:39] Earth Day and the public awareness shift
• [32:10] Guilt narratives and industry strategy
• [39:54] “Recycling Rate” explained
• [40:48] The damning numbers: only 5–6% of US plastic actually recycled
• [42:17] Breakdown of types of plastics & their recycling rates
• [44:01] Emotional reactions, confessions, and shifting blame theory

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The hosts balance humor and cynicism, using personal anecdotes and irreverent banter to keep the discussion engaging while grounding their skepticism in research. At the heart of the episode is a sobering message: much of what Americans have been told about recycling—particularly plastic—was engineered by industry to foster consumer guilt and encourage infinite consumption without corporate accountability.

Core takeaways:

• US plastic recycling rates are extremely low (5–6%).
• “Recycling” as an institution originated largely as PR to divert attention from producers to individual habits.
• Aluminum and glass are more efficiently recycled than plastics.
• The biggest environmental lever isn’t cleanly sorting your plastics—it’s systemic reform on manufacturing and packaging.

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Notable Quote for Reflection

“The recycling thing is a distraction. It's not anything to do with the actual problem.” — Davis Allen [37:52]

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What’s Next? (Teaser for Part Two)

• The crew will visit a recycling plant and talk to a recycling advocate.
• They’ll attempt to reconcile the bleak picture painted in Part One with on-the-ground efforts and pro-recycling arguments.
• Promises explanation of the infamous “only 9% of plastic gets recycled” statistic. [46:35]

For listeners craving detail, humor, and myth-busting: Part 1 is essential before continuing.

Transcript

[A]

What's up nst heads? So this right here is part one of a two part episode. The second part is out now as well, but this is the one you should listen to first. It is part one, so enjoy and make sure you tap into part two to finish the story. And without further ado, part one of two on the big truths and big lies about Recycling.

[B]

Kaleidoscope.

[C]

I'm Annie.

[A]

I'm Noah. This is Devin and this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research this week. Does recycling even work?

[C]

If it turns out to be the

[D]

case that this is not really doing anything, I'm going to be writing a very strongly worded letter.

[C]

There's no no such thing.

[A]

No such thing.

[E]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[C]

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[A]

So this week is a topic that we've been thinking about for a while and a listener of ours also had the same question recently. Liz asked this does recycling do anything? Or does it just make us feel better when we put things into the bin and send it away? This is one of those topics that for Years I've thought about and, you know, every few months, I feel like I would see a news story, a headline come by that said, basically, like, the truth about recycling. And I hadn't read them until now.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Now we're doing a podcast about it. Before we get into that, I want to introduce our special guest co host, and someone who actually worked on one of these pieces that I skipped over years ago is our fourth mic, Naima Raza.

[B]

Hi, guys. Nice to see you.

[A]

Mind introducing yourself?

[B]

I do a podcast called Smart Girl Dumb Questions, which I'm realizing there's no such thing as a. Are we like Eskimo sisters at a podcast? But yes, years ago, I did write, or actually it was a video for the New York Times. The great recycling con. I can't claim to be a recycling expert, and I can't say that that has changed my behavior as much as it should have.

[A]

So, yeah, so don't spoil anything yet, but we'll get into that later.

[B]

Except for the word con. Edit that out.

[A]

That's okay. That's just, you know, that's a New York Times editorializing to begin. How do we all feel about recycling, Kevin?

[G]

How do we feel about it?

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

Like, emotionally?

[H]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, do you. Do you enjoy it? Do you do it? I don't have any guilt about not doing it.

[G]

No, I do. I do it. I think. I think I try to recycle too many things. I feel like most of the things I'm quote, unquote recycling or putting in a recycling bin probably don't get recycled. But in my mind, I have to do it every once in a blue. I'll get, like, a plastic container from, like, a takeout place and throw it in the regular garbage. And I feel, you know, I'm like,

[D]

you just killed those.

[G]

Really, really shouldn't do that. But recycling is annoying. The most annoying thing about recycling is that the recycling can is never as big as the garbage can. But then recycling stuff takes up so much more space. So it's like, yeah, so it's like a big inconvenience in, like, your home. Right. And then you're like, why am I even. Like, does this even work?

[A]

And how. When you're sorting, how are you sorting? How much sorting are we doing? Just recycling bin for everything.

[G]

I have one recycling bin for everything. My apartment building does not sort anything. So I'm not sorting stuff because y' all don't sort stuff. So when you go downstairs to put into the bins, there's just recycling bins. There's supposed to be cardboard and paper. It's supposed to be separated from the plastic, but they don't do that. So I'm not doing it either. Yeah, somebody. Somebody will figure it out at some point.

[H]

Or not.

[B]

You're job creating. You're job creating.

[G]

Exactly. I'm creating a sorter. But I try to, you know, I try to fold up my boxes and do that sort of thing.

[D]

Okay.

[G]

I guess my overall emotion around recycling is I think it's fake. I don't think it's actually happening. But I do do it because I feel like I don't want to be,

[A]

you know, you're not going to be the one who's the problem.

[G]

Exactly. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. If down the line y' all aren't doing what y' all are supposed to, that's on you.

[A]

That's reasonable.

[G]

But we talked about my big recycling beef is weird recycling stuff. Right. So I use Brita filters mostly just because it's like a water container in my fridge. I don't believe it actually does anything. But I was looking at the filter.

[C]

There's a lot of things you think

[D]

and not doing anything.

[B]

We're living a fictitious life.

[G]

Exactly. But I was getting, you know, it was time to replace the filter. So I'm looking at the filter. They'd be like, can I recycle this? And then I read the box and it's like, oh, you can recycle it if you put it in a box and ship it to wherever and then we'll recycle it for you.

[D]

Yeah.

[G]

And I was like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I have to ship something so you can recycle it. Doesn't that offset the whole purpose of

[D]

recycling if not overcompensate?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's like there's not like a drop off location.

[G]

No. It's like in New York City, you got to. You got to mail it off. Mail off my filter to get recycled. I think the carbon footprint of me mailing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[G]

Offsets me recycling.

[A]

And they don't send you a new one or something. It's not like. It's not like a. No.

[G]

Not an exchange. No.

[B]

Wow. What's it for me? Recycling.

[G]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

What about when you have like takeout and you're rinsing the things to recycle them and you're using so much water and you're like, does this thing even recycle and I gotta rinse it? Cause you can't put your dirty debris

[G]

in the, in a recycle.

[A]

That's what you always hear.

[G]

Yeah, yeah. You gotta clean it up.

[C]

I was dealing with this just last

[D]

night because Monday is garbage and recycling.

[C]

And my basic view is that like,

[D]

I want to be a good citizen,

[C]

but they make it too difficult.

[D]

Every week I'm pulling up.

[G]

No way. Yeah.

[C]

And so I was just found myself

[D]

doing this last night and I was like, this is terrible. I don't want to do this anymore.

[C]

The drop off location for my Brita

[D]

filter is the garbage can.

[G]

Yeah.

[D]

I'm not doing any extra work.

[C]

I think the government should make it

[D]

a little bit easier.

[B]

But if they gave you a replaceable filter for free, if you recycled yours, would you recycle it?

[D]

Like, would I ship it and get

[B]

a replacement as opposed to spending $9 or whatever?

[C]

I don't know. I'm also not good with money.

[D]

I'll just buy. Like I should just.

[C]

I.

[D]

That that would be the smart thing to do.

[I]

Yeah.

[G]

But I'm a Time is Money guy too, where I'm like, oh, I got to like print a label and like, I'll just throw it out.

[C]

I'm really okay.

[A]

The British should come with a package that you mail it out in and it should come with two. So that way you, you know, you always have one immediate.

[B]

All right, Chief strategy officer Brittany's listening and hiring.

[A]

I don't need to do this anymore.

[J]

Y' all can sponsor.

[A]

I'm very aligned with you all where it's like I separate. I put the things in the bin.

[G]

Yep.

[A]

My garbage area at my building is not separated at all. So it's just like it's going with God. From the little headlines I've taken in.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think this is going anywhere. At some point I thought, okay, they're sending it to China and maybe China's doing it. I don't know.

[C]

I'm coming into this with absolutely zero knowledge about what happens after I do my recycling. So.

[A]

I mean, you don't work there.

[B]

Yeah. But it does make me feel better about buying glass bottles of Coke. You have a plastic bottle of Coke there. It doesn't taste as good and doesn't recycle as well, apparently. But here's the anti feminist moment, which is to say I actually really, when I'm in a relationship, don't deal with recycling or trash. I feel like those are man duties in a home.

[C]

Don'. It's.

[A]

I'm not going to say ends up

[C]

being the case in my Home, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, my lips are sealed.

[B]

You feel like you're.

[G]

No, it's like, I'm not getting canceled over this.

[A]

I'll be canceled by my wife.

[B]

Yeah, he doesn't want to get canceled from his new Brita job.

[C]

And then I think we should also say this varies. Right. Like city by city and state by state. Like in New York, I mean, our super, like, I've gotten in trouble multiple

[D]

times for recycling something incorrectly. And then my super will be like, look, if you keep doing this, we're going to get fined.

[G]

Yeah, but buildings are supposed to get fined for not recycling correctly.

[D]

So now I'm recycling so that he doesn't get fined. Not necessarily to save the Earth.

[A]

I remember there's also some stuff where you're supposed to put all the recycling in a clear bag versus black bags

[G]

for the trash so they can sort through it.

[A]

And then, you know, I've heard other people say their buildings are definitely on them about this. And then it obviously varies so much where it's like, this can't be that big of an issue if. And a lot of buildings aren't doing this.

[B]

No. But in other countries, all over the world, like, it's very. In the uk, they will actually find you if you don't.

[G]

If you don't.

[B]

If you don't compost, like, they'll find you as the homeowner and. Or the unit. And in Europe, I mean, they're just. They're much like. I think they're just much better about these kinds of common good problems.

[A]

And the separate bins and stuff, too. I've noticed.

[B]

Or even in Australia, it's like, there's a water shortage. Showers are going to be like six minutes. Imagine telling Americans they can only shower for six minutes.

[A]

Don't tell me that we've already been for three.

[D]

Short amount of time than we do.

[B]

Yeah, three.

[A]

Not for water, not for water, not for concentration.

[B]

For antibacterial reasons.

[A]

Yeah. And just health.

[D]

Washing away your natural, like, what you

[A]

need versus what you want. Mm.

[G]

It's a good way to put it.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Like, that shower thing just comes up every episode.

[D]

We're so pissed about. It's clear.

[A]

It sounds like we're all aligned, but let's do a vote. Does anyone here think recycling works? And you can add nuance.

[C]

I would like to believe it's doing

[A]

something, but in your heart of hearts, you know, I throw this out. What's happening to.

[C]

It's gotta be doing something.

[A]

Right.

[D]

They're putting it in a different place. Than your garbage is what I think is happening.

[G]

I think a very small percentage of stuff, actually. I think in the beginning, when we were, like, in elementary school and we were recycling, I feel like that was the golden age, I think. I feel like they were really recycling.

[A]

Or do you think that's because you were in middle school?

[G]

No, I think that they were actually doing stuff back then that was actually being recycled. Yeah.

[B]

Captain Planet King's a hero. Gonna take pollution down to zero.

[G]

I feel like.

[A]

Yeah, he. Where is he?

[G]

I think the issue is now. Back then, not everything was recyclable, and we weren't, you know, like, we had a limited amount of things that we were recycling. Now every single thing is recyclable.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[G]

Which. There's just too much stuff. We're not using this much stuff.

[C]

When I was a kid, it really

[D]

felt like just like soda cans.

[G]

Yep.

[B]

And Santa Claus was alive, guys. I mean, I have to say, I don't know that the technology has gotten worse with time.

[G]

No, I'm not saying it's gotten worse. I think we just have more things that we're trying to recycle.

[B]

We used to, like, recycle all those plastic bags from supermarkets and stuff. I think it existed. We just weren't the ones consuming them, and so we didn't. I. I feel like it works with glass and aluminium, but when it comes to plastic, I think it's like, I. I forget the number, and I don't want to scoop your interview, but, like,

[A]

I feel I'm editing that out.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

My guess is material by material, there's variance. But I think kind of what. I guess what Devin is saying is because there's so many things we're expected to try to recycle, I think that complicates matters even more.

[B]

But when you're. When we're kids, I do think. I thought recycling was magic. Like, I thought, if you have sneakers, they will one day become a basketball court, you know? Or, like, if you have a plastic bag, I will one day become a park bench. And, like, everything was beautiful because Captain

[A]

Planet, you just put it in the machine, and it comes out something new.

[C]

But I will say this for the

[D]

purposes of this episode.

[C]

If it turns out to be the

[D]

case that this is not really doing anything, I'm gonna be writing a very strongly worded letter. Like, we are doing so much work to Zoran Mundani.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right, man.

[C]

Why? I mean, we're doing so much work at home.

[D]

I would be devastated to find out it's not really doing anything.

[G]

But if we find out, I think this episode outside of the laundry episode has the biggest chance to change my personal behavior.

[D]

Yeah.

[G]

Because if it turns out it's not doing anything, then I'm not recycling.

[A]

What are you going to do anymore?

[G]

I'm just going to throw it in the garbage.

[C]

It's all going to be in the black bag.

[A]

Yeah, they're not going to check.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe you should cover your ears for the rest of this. Will you stop buying stuff? That's, I think, like, that's going to be my story.

[D]

When my super comes around, I'm going to be like, actually, I don't purchase anything to recycle. That's why you're not seeing any recycling.

[B]

I'm a real environmentalist who writes strongly worded letters to the man on Tuesdays.

[A]

Well, why don't we answer some of these questions? After the break, we're gonna hear from an advocate against the big plastic industry.

[G]

Oh.

[B]

Ooh.

[G]

All right, fellas, I need you to help me with a problem that I got. You know, usually we're the ones helping other people with their problems, but I'm about to go abroad and I want to watch MECH games, Noah, how can I watch them?

[A]

That's a tough one. Maybe get a really large telescope.

[G]

I don't think that's the best way to do it, Manny. Do you have any solutions on how I could watch Mets games abroad?

[C]

I think I've got a slightly more

[D]

practical solution for you, Devin.

[C]

If you use NordVPN, you'll be able to change the location of your laptop's IP address and watch the content with no problem.

[H]

What about my privacy online? I'm worried someone's watching me.

[D]

First of all, no one is watching you, Noah.

[C]

But in case someone was watching you, NordVPN provides you with privacy online, leaving no digital footprint by hiding your IP address. It's like wearing an invisibility cloak while

[D]

you're surfing the web.

[A]

Sounds comfy.

[G]

So, Manny, I've heard about these VPNs and how they're super slow. How do I make sure my Internet is not throttling?

[C]

If you want to use a VPN without slowing down your Internet, Devin, you're

[D]

going to want to use NordVPN because

[C]

whenever I use it, I don't see any buffering or lagging while I'm streaming my favorite content.

[G]

How do I get NordVPN?

[C]

Devin, if you or our listeners want to get the best discount off of your NORDVPN plan, go to nordvpn.comnst Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan. And there's no risk because Nord has a 30 day money back guarantee. The link is in the show notes. That's nordvpn.com nst by now I'm sure you've heard of vibe coding. Everywhere I go, I'm always hearing someone talk about how they vibe coded an app. It's everywhere right now. But here's the thing. It's not just for apps anymore. Now it's making its way into website creation. WIX has introduced WIX Harmony, a vibe coder for websites that lets you type what you want and generate a site ready to use right away, complete with forms, payments, security and more. But don't worry, WIX Harmony doesn't require AI for everything. You can still click and edit anything manually or select an element and have Aria, your AI agent make updates for you. It's a smart solution to the frustration of repeatedly prompting AI just to make small changes. Try it for [e-mail] harmony that's wix.com harmony now get out there and vibe code to your heart's content. We are back.

[D]

I'm Annie.

[A]

Noah.

[G]

Devin.

[B]

Am I allowed to say my name? That's right.

[A]

Now you are.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm Naima and we are figuring out the truth behind recycling. Wow. Is it a lie? I spoke. I spoke to someone who's done a lot of work on this.

[K]

So my name is Davis Allen. I'm an environmental historian by training. I work as an investigative researcher at the center for Climate Integrity where we provide support for communities that are holding big Oil accountable through litigation.

[A]

So Davis Allen has been working on this for years. His group has put out a bunch of really in depth reports investigating plastics and recycling and kind of some of the what they would say are lies of the big oil industry. We're mainly focusing on plastics recycling for the purpose of this. The main kind of thesis is that recycling as we know it is basically essentially a PR campaign made by and sponsored by Big Oil.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Plastics come from oil. And basically this is a way that they can kind of clean up their image by saying, hey, this isn't just like trash. It's gonna be reused and make you feel better about throwing the stuff in the garbage.

[B]

Who you think paid for all those ads you saw as a kid when you're hunky dory recycling, I didn't know at all.

[A]

We need to check the credits to Captain Planet while we're at it, to be honest, I don't know.

[B]

Greenwash.

[D]

Heartbreaking.

[C]

If that.

[D]

If there's something sinister behind Captain Planet, I don't know.

[B]

I think they're.

[A]

Well, yeah, I will look at that. Quick side note here. I look into it and Captain Planet is innocent. So don't worry about that.

[B]

But greenwashing. Greenwashing.

[D]

Yeah. I didn't know about this.

[A]

So first I opened up with a big one. I asked Davis, what are the most common misconceptions about recycling?

[D]

That it does anything.

[G]

That it works.

[A]

Yeah, that it exists.

[K]

I think the biggest misconception really is the idea that because of recycling, a disposable consumer economy is not a major environmental problem. Because it perpetuates a feeling among people using these products that there isn't really a major environmental impact because whatever, the product is just getting cycled back through system and turning into a new product. And that's unfortunately just not how recycling works. In the vast majority of cases, there are some materials that are recycled that are much more efficiently recycled. So something like aluminum, a much higher percentage of the aluminum actually gets turned into a new aluminum product. But even in that kind of case where 99% of the material is getting turned into to a new can or whatever, there are still a lot of environmental costs in that process that make it far less efficient than some kind of reusable approach. So basically, I think the biggest misconception is that the whole idea of a circle being not a problem when really any disposable product is ultimately more of a straight line where you're having a lot of environmental costs in that process.

[D]

So basically there's a misconception that recycling is offsetting some of the more gross things we do with consumer products. But in reality it's just like what, like a drop in the bucket compared to.

[A]

Yeah. And basically like kind of what Naimo was saying where we have this image from middle school where it's like you put the thing in the bin and then it comes out as a new product. Totally magic. You don't lose anything. Yeah. Just like this perfect one to one replacement. That's just not true based on the costs and other factors of actually doing the recycling.

[I]

So the biggest problem with things not getting recycled is just that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to recycle. The vast majority of plastics. Recycled plastic, once you have it as a. A new sort of material, a new raw form of plastic to be turned into something is pretty low quality. It's well suited for things like trash Cans, ironically, recycling bins, plastic crate that holds materials that are getting shipped, things like that. But it's not the kind of plastic that is useful for most applications. The reality is when we're using all these plastic products, they have pretty particular specifications for what they need it to be able to do. And recycled plastic, it doesn't meet most of those specifications.

[A]

So that's basically how recycling does or doesn't work.

[B]

How demotivating.

[G]

It's a scam.

[B]

I did this story for the New York Times. It was like 2019, but it's like the cost of making a new plastic bag from like a plastic bag is much higher than just making a new plastic bag. So why would a company then make a plastic bag from an old plastic bag or whatever the case may be?

[D]

Insert incentive there.

[B]

So, yeah, it enables consumption. Because we feel so virtuous, we have like a little halo. This guy is going to take the halo off our head.

[A]

Truly. Yeah. I asked what are plastics and where do they come from?

[B]

Yeah, that I don't know.

[L]

Actually, plastics come from many different raw materials. Some of the materials are natural elements like water and air. Some are growing things like corn and potatoes. Others are minerals such as oil, coal and limestone. From these various raw materials, chemists derive many different chemicals which, when combined properly, will form plastics.

[K]

There's often the misconception that plastic is one thing. In reality, there are thousands of different chemicals that make up plastics. So they're really an extremely broad category of materials that happen to share some key characteristics. I'll say. In particular, the vast majority, something like 99% currently are made of fossil fuels. And they're engineered to address lots of particular use cases. But yeah, they're a really wide, diverse

[B]

group of materials, but they just make it like they create it in a lab.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

from oil, downstream, stuff that they don't need to like, pump into the vehicle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[L]

Yes, this is a drone dream of the future. Yet out of such dreams has come all that we call progress. So in the years ahead, dreams like this and many more will become realities.

[A]

So now we're going to kind of go back and do a little history lesson on plastics becoming disposable. So I was curious, like, when did people even start to care about single use plastics and waste? Disposable plastics were introduced post World War II. Before that, plastic was largely seen as a more durable material, so products like radios. Then the plastics industry realized they would make more money if they made disposable products instead of ones you buy and keep for 20 years.

[G]

Yeah, we need you to buy it again, please.

[A]

So a lot of that is packaging and other single use items. So like before that, grocery stores, that sort of thing had bulk things and you would go fill up a bag and then take it away instead of individually wrapped pieces. The industry exploded and it totally changed our consumer economy. Things that had no packaging previously now did. Here's one example of that shift in the report.

[I]

We talk about an instance in the 50s in which many infants choked on plastic dry cleaner bags were killed by plastic dry cleaner bags in a single year. And that was a particularly interesting example where you see in one moment in time it go from a durable concept of plastics to a disposable one, because you literally had Dupont, who was making the bags, telling people, you can keep this bag, you can do all kinds of things with it, you can cover your sofa with it, or whatever. And then the plastics industry launched this public relations campaign to try to counteract the terrible publicity from all of these children dying. Their PR campaign was, you've got to throw these things away. They blamed the mothers explicitly of the children who had died for not throwing away the plastics after they had told them, you can keep using them. So that's a particularly interesting example where you see that transition. But the public backlash against disposable plastics really began especially around 1970.

[J]

Good evening. A unique day in American history is ending. A day set aside for a nationwide outpouring of mankind seeking its own survival. Earth Day, a day dedicated to enlisting all the citizens of a bountiful country in the common cause of saving life from the deadly byproducts of that bounty. The fouled skies, the filthy waters, the littered earth.

[I]

The first Earth Day was catalyst for so many environmental movements, but it was especially significant for the plastic system where people recognize this stuff is ending up in the environment. And it was the first backlash against disposable plastics that was a catalyst for the industry trying to figure out, what are we going to do? How are we going to resolve this new public relations nightmare? And they initially go to landfilling and incineration and then just looking into recycling right from the beginning. We have docs from the early 1970s where the Society of the plastics industry, which was working on behalf of all of the big plastic producers, was trying to figure out, is recycling feasible? Basically, is recycling something that could offer a solution? They didn't really promote it early on because their initial finding was, no, it's not a good solution for plastics. So it really only came later that they began to promote it as a solution.

[A]

So, in short, it's basically like Earth Day happens. People are like, hey, this seems pretty bad. Then they're like, okay, we'll just burn it all. And everyone's like, cool. And then after like 20 years, people are like, oh, maybe burning stuff isn't so good. And then they're like, okay, we can. We'll recycle. And that's kind of lines up with us growing up with all this recycling propaganda.

[B]

Yeah.

[G]

90s prime recycling propaganda at the time.

[B]

The baby story is so sad. I'm sure as a new father also.

[D]

Oh, my God. I mean, every day I'm like, am I gonna kill this baby by accident? I can't believe.

[C]

So what is the dry cleaning bags.

[D]

Like, this bag would come back in.

[A]

Yeah, like those big ones.

[C]

Wow.

[G]

But y' all don't remember when we were younger, it was a big thing of our parents being like, never put a plastic bag over your head. And I'm assuming it's because of this. That story. Those are stories. Wow.

[B]

I mean, I can't believe, like, this industry is just, like, surviving and riding. I know, like, baby killings.

[C]

Like, what development in the industry is.

[D]

Is a. Like a PR move.

[G]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

To fix some previous mistake.

[A]

Okay, so we heard a lot about what plastic is, how we got so much of it, and how we landed where we are today as far as recycling being a big sort of solution to deal with it. After the break, Davis is going to tell us why he thinks big recycling is basically a fantasy made up to guilt trip little people like you and me to take responsibility for a disposable consumption culture that's mostly out of our control.

[C]

By now, I'm sure you've heard of Vibe coding. Everywhere I go, I'm always hearing someone talk about how they Vibe coded an app. It's everywhere right now. But here's the thing. It's not just for apps anymore. Now it's making its way into website creation. WIX has introduced WIX Harmony, a Vibe coder for websites that lets you type what you want and generate a site ready to use right away, complete with forms, payments, security and more. But don't worry, WIX Harmony doesn't require AI for everything. You can still click and edit anything manually or select an element and have Aria, your AI agent, make updates for you. It's a smart solution to the frustration of repeatedly prompting AI just to make small changes. Try it for [e-mail] Harmony that's wix.com Harmony. Now get out there and vibe code to your heart's content.

[M]

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[N]

Mother's Day Celebrate all the women who make life brighter with a gift from Pandora Jewelry. Choose jewelry that reflects what she means to you and the moments you share. Make it even more meaningful by personalizing your piece with an engraving in your own handwriting, something no one else has, either a date, a name, or something unique to you. Because the best Mother's Day gift says more than I love you. It says I appreciate you. It says I see you find the perfect Mother's Day gift at your local Pandora store or [e-mail].

[A]

So now we're going to dive into Davis's main thesis that recycling is a way to push a narrative of guilt onto us, the consumer, rather than looking towards the big oil companies actually producing and profiting from all of this plastic waste. And remember, this is just part one. In part two, we'll visit a recycling plant to see how recycling actually works on the ground and hear from the pro recycling side. But for now, more of my conversation with Davis Allen from the center for Climate Integrity. It seems basically they landed on like we can basically guilt people and the public into blaming themselves for plastic waste. If that's true, can you talk about how we got to kind of that point from where we were in the early 70s there?

[I]

I think that is true. I think that's the exact trajectory of what happened really, they knew that recycling was not viable for the vast majority of plastics, and they knew that it wasn't a solution. Even when plastics can be recycled, that process degrades the quality. And so it's not something that can keep happening over and over again like with some other materials. It's something that represents a very limited strategy to deal with plastic, especially when we are knowingly producing so much plastic that is meant to be used once and then end up in the waste system. So they understood all of those problems. They were very open internally within the industry, recognizing that these things would prevent plastic recycling from existing on a wide scale and certainly solving the problem of the plastic waste crisis even at that early stage. But shifting the blame to individual consumers was a really effective way of taking attention off of the producers, off of the industry that was producing all the plastic and creating a personal responsibility narrative in which people felt it was their job to solve this problem. That process of shifting blame to the consumers was so effective because people want to do right by the environment. Right. They want to behave in a way that feels sustainable and feels in alignment with their values and things. And the recycling campaigns really tapped directly into that impulse and took advantage of them to make it seem like an individual person putting their plastic item in the bin was resolving the deeper contradiction that, of course, recycling can do nothing to address. Whether they were targeting local municipalities, convincing them to set up recycling programs that they knew would not be economically sustainable, whether they were creating sponsored materials for classrooms to basically advertise recycling to kids. As somebody who grew up in the 90s, I remember vividly being in elementary school and consuming all kinds of stuff, telling me about the value of recycling. And I ate it up. And it has been a really weird feeling to go back and see this stuff as an adult and realize that it was made by dupont or the American Plastics Council or any number of different companies and groups, and was, yeah, again, explicitly targeting that impulse to take care of the environment and to do our best. I've been amazed in my own experience since we published this report. So many people come up to me and I feel are basically like, confessing their plastic use to me and telling me how bad they feel about using plastics. And I'm like, none of us can avoid using plastics. They have made it virtually impossible to not rely upon plastics every day. You know, the vast majority of these things don't need to be plastic, but it remains a really effective business model to make people feel bad about it while also continuing to produce endless amounts of it.

[A]

To be honest, reading the report made me feel better because it's like, okay, well, this is kind of. It's not all my fault, you know. You know, backwards, away. It's kind of like, okay, like, I know I don't soar perfectly, but it's out of my hands.

[I]

I think that should be the takeaway, really. Of course, it's incredibly demoralizing to realize how we have been lied to and manipulated and all of these things, but at the same time it's. Yeah, you see how this stuff happens. You see the way that they were talking to each other at industry conferences and things. This is not the fault of the people using the plastic in the vast majority of cases. And there's just nothing you can really do. And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything, that we should just give up and become nihilists about it. In my own life, I have still adjusted some of my behaviors and I like, try to reduce my plastic usage in various ways. But I also recognize that's mostly, that's mostly because of the way that it makes me feel about it, not the fact that it actually is contributing very much because these companies are making just ungodly amounts of plastic and we're not part of that in any way. The recycling thing is a distraction. It's not anything to do with the actual problem.

[A]

I mean, there you go.

[B]

That's a good word for it. That's a better word than con, actually.

[G]

Distraction. That's a really good word over here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think, I feel like that's. You see that so much. Especially with any climate related things. Like think about flying. It's like, okay, I could not take a flight. My two flights a year that I take. Meanwhile, you know, it's like people in charge of these things are flying every day.

[B]

Yeah, the carbon offsets. You can just buy carbon offsets. That seems like a distraction too.

[G]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, probably. Yeah.

[B]

And it's like someone making money. Why am I paying more money to offset?

[A]

Like, why me?

[C]

Yeah, it's like when they tell you

[D]

to, you know, not use your air conditioner. It's like, okay, I can see the argument here. But also there's all these gigantic buildings in Manhattan that are running all 24 7. It's like, maybe we should start with someone else.

[B]

But that's different even because, like, by not, I mean, like, I actually do do some, some of those things because I feel like, okay, if my, if everyone were to do this action, then this thing would be. This is like Even if you do this action, this action is dumb. So you're just wasting your time doing this action. This is even more which to be clear, you should still recycle, especially glass, aluminium, especially plastic bottles that are, you know, of the recycling kind. But yeah, like I, but it's actually just like wasting my time and making me feel good and letting me continue to purchase, which is so bad.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. I mean there's no real way to avoid plastics efficiently.

[B]

Although, like, do you think if we made like a plastic free town, it would be a really like people would want to move there? Like should we do that zone?

[A]

Some people would want to move there.

[B]

Like I think some people want to live in a plastic free zone for their health and well being and for their virtuosity. We could like create a little plastic freeze neighborhood.

[A]

One of the bigger questions is just like how much stuff that we quote unquote recycle actually gets recycled. So that would be the recycling rate is the term they use to study this. So first give me at least 10%, I'll be happy. Here's a definition of recycling rate and then what the actual recycling rate is.

[K]

For the United States, a recycling rate is the percentage of plastic that is entering the waste system that is getting recycled. That is in our case, mostly almost all mechanically recycled. So that means grinding and shredding the plastic down into small bits and cycling it through a system in which it gets basically melted down and turned into a new plastic product. Yeah, it's the percentage of the plastic entering the waste stream. So it's not new plastic that's being produced because we don't want to count durable plastics against that recycling rate. It's only plastic that's entering the waste stream.

[A]

For plastics, what's the current recycling rate in the US for plastics?

[K]

The recycling rate is close to 5 to 6%. The highest the plastics recycling rate has ever been was 9%. But at that point it was a little bit deceptive because it counted a lot of plastics that were being shipped to China to be recycled. But there was a lot of plastic being shipped, shipped to China that was never going to get recycled. They have the same sort of economic limitations that we do and that number was deceptively high for a bit.

[A]

So it's more like it's not recycled, but it's more out of our hands.

[K]

Right. It provided a very easy way for us to pretend that things are being recycled in the same way that people talk about wish cycling on like an individual level, putting something in the bin, thinking Maybe it'll get recycled. We were doing that as a country, you know, engaging in some pretty major waste imperialism. And we still do. It's just not to China anymore, because China decided that they don't want to accept our trash anymore. The rate currently in the United States is probably around 5 or 6%.

[H]

And Davis went on to tell me that certain plastic products have a higher recycling rate. So a pet bottle, think of a typical soda bottle, is recycled at around 33%, which is on the higher end of things. Whereas other types like polypropylene, aka plastic number five, might be as low as 1% or even less.

[B]

Wait, I'm so confused. They wanted to make up a number of how much they were recycling, and the highest they could make up was 9%.

[A]

That's like basically giving yourself like, all. All the advantages of being like, okay, well, let's say this, and let's say

[B]

that like 9% is the highest they could eek out. Like, if you're gonna tell live, you know, It'd be like 99.

[C]

Before you played that clip, all I

[D]

was asking for was 10. Recyclable rate, meaning the things I recycle is actually going to get recycled. I couldn't even get 10%.

[B]

Well, that's not. That depends on like, the average math of what you consume. But the plastics are fewer than. And some of the plastics are 33%.

[G]

Yeah.

[A]

So you could make your way a lot of these.

[G]

Yeah. If you're drinking a lot of water

[A]

bottles, do some service for the country.

[C]

I can't believe that. 5. 5 to 6%.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Everything numbers.

[G]

Yeah.

[D]

Crazy.

[A]

Yeah. When I heard that, I was pretty shocked. It's just like, it's so low that it's like, I can't believe how much time we've spent thinking about this. Yeah. And then, you know, Davis mentions the incineration. Some countries counting that as recycling. It's like, well, we got rid of it. Yeah. We turned it into something.

[D]

Recycling it into toxic things.

[B]

I actually felt sad for the plastic as he was talking about it. Like, it was pretty dehumanizing plasticizing. Like, they crush it and they do this.

[A]

And Naima, you asked me earlier about if doing this interview changed my habits.

[B]

Yes.

[H]

And the answer is no.

[B]

But did you think about changing him?

[A]

Not really.

[C]

I mean, changing your habits would not do anything.

[A]

I guess it. It.

[B]

I kind of knew that when your answer to reading the report was like, oh, thank God, it's not my problem.

[D]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

You know, I like that confession.

[A]

I like, I Like, reusable items when I can. But I remember when I'm a small man and in a big world. That's my knockoff of your show.

[B]

Smart girl. Oh, man. Big world. You know what? I think you can use this. Like, reduce, reuse, recycle is, like, in dating, so you should reduce the number of people you date. You can reuse. You can go back to your exes.

[G]

I don't know if you should do that.

[B]

Break class in case emergency. And then you should recycle them. Because, like, I try this so much when, like, it doesn't work out well, I'll be like, oh, you know, but I have a friend that I think. And people don't. People don't like that.

[G]

Wait, you yourself will say, hey, I know this one's not for me, but, like, I should date my friend.

[B]

I say, like, it doesn't seem like this will be a thing, but I have a friend. Because I think, like, it's kind of

[A]

nice because it's like, it's still a stamp of approval.

[B]

Yeah, it's a stamp of approval, but I don't think people like it. But, like, I like that. And it's also, like, actually might work out because your friend is kind of. I've always thought the idea that you can't date, like, your friend's exes is kind of screwed up because your friend is like. Like, like you with a tweak. And, like, maybe that tweak is what's needed to, like, make that, like, you're probably.

[C]

So who was upset?

[D]

The person that you were saying that to. You're breaking up with your friend.

[B]

I'd already said it. I waited like, two extra.

[A]

Like that.

[B]

I was like. I had this thought, but obviously I had that thought the first day. I was like, they should be together.

[A]

It's an interesting.

[G]

Yeah. So take it away from the. We're gonna take away from the takeaways.

[B]

Just Brandon unmet Single men.

[A]

Okay.

[G]

We should use it in the dating world. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I bet the efficiency rate would be way higher than five.

[B]

I'm telling you, reduce, reuse, recycle your men. That.

[A]

All right.

[B]

And you know what? The thing is, because, like, plastic gets less good when you recycle it. But, like, men get more good after we date.

[A]

That's true.

[G]

Because you make them better.

[B]

We make. Everybody gets better after a relationship. Men, women, whatever.

[G]

Like, I don't know if everybody does.

[A]

Ran through.

[D]

That's the.

[C]

That's the idea.

[B]

Hopefully there should be, like, a cooling off period.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

Exit crazy ex girlfriend ratio come to. Anyways,

[A]

Okay, so that's it for part one. Now scroll down and click on part two to hear the rest. In part two, we hear more about what happens to plastic when we put it in the bin. We'll go on a field trip to a recycling center to see what's going on.

[G]

It looked like some shit out of like, Futurama.

[A]

Yeah, and talk to a representative there to see if recycling is actually a total scam or not.

[B]

So there's this statistic that everyone loves to, like, run at me with their hands flailing in the air. Only 9% of plastic gets recycled. So I, I just want to explain that statistic because it's a bit misunderstood.

[A]

This is just the beginning.

[H]

No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatikadur. The show is created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. Theme and credits Song by Manny Fadal Mixing by Steve Bone thank you so much to our guests Naima Raza and Davis Allen. Make sure you check out Naima's podcast. It's called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. It's very funny, very smart and very good. You can go to climateintegrity.org to see the reports Davis has been working on. Visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our

[A]

newsletter for links to research and more.

[H]

And lastly, we want to hear from you. We made a survey to get feedback about what you like about the show, what you don't like about the show, and a lot more. You can find the link in our show notes and on our newsletter.

[A]

So please let us know what you think.

[H]

And lastly, don't forget to jump into part two as soon as you can. Thanks.

[O]

In football, you've got guys from everywhere, different backgrounds, different beliefs, all of it. You don't agree on everything, but you got each other's backs. That's how it works. And right now, off the field, hates going up everywhere. Different communities, different ways. And Jewish communities are getting hit hard. That's not how a team operates. The blue square is just one way of showing you've got people's backs. Go to bluesquarealliance.org, grab one, share it. Be a good teammate at CVS.

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[Q]

I'm U.S. transportation Secretary Sean Duffy. We all get distracted when we drive, whether it's from our phones or kids in the backseat bickering. But how we handle these distractions can be a matter of life or death. Before you get on the road for your next road trip, please put your phones on silent and take a mental note to focus on driving. Paid for by NHTSA

[N]

this Mother's Day celebrate all the women who make life brighter with a gift from Pandora Jewelry. Choose jewelry that reflects what she means to you and the moments you share. Make it even more meaningful by personalizing your piece with an engraving in your own handwriting, something no one else has, either a date, a name, or something unique to you. Because the best Mother's Day gift says more than I love you. It says I appreciate you. It says, I see you. Find the perfect Mother's Day gift at your local Pandora store or [e-mail] this

[E]

is an iHeart podcast.

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Guaranteed human.