Is soccer a form of human trafficking? (and more World Cup questions)

Summary

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NO SUCH THING – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Is soccer a form of human trafficking? (and more World Cup questions)
Podcast: NO SUCH THING (iHeartPodcasts & Kaleidoscope)
Date: July 1, 2026
Hosts: Manny, Noah, Devin
Guests: Stefan Szymanski & Ashish Malhotra (Soccernomics Podcast)

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Main Theme

This episode, hosted by best friends and journalists Manny, Noah, and Devin, dives into some of the weirdest, most compelling debates around soccer in the context of the World Cup. They explore why English people hate the word “soccer,” whether the European transfer system is eerily similar to human trafficking, and investigate why the U.S. men’s national team has historically struggled. Soccer fans and total “civilians” alike will find new perspectives, cultural observations, and detailed insights, thanks especially to expert guests from the Soccernomics podcast.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Why Isn’t Soccer Big in the U.S.? (02:40–07:48)

• Opening Thoughts: Manny expresses his World Cup excitement, while Noah and Devin admit they’re not big soccer fans—calling themselves below “casual” level (04:03).
• Barriers to Fandom:
  • Noah explains he gets his fill from basketball and doesn't seek out more sports content.
  • Devin enjoys baseball for its social/community feel and says soccer's lack of community for “civilians” is a major barrier.
  • Both need either a deeper understanding of the game or for soccer to reach a cultural “fear of missing out” status before they’d tune in.
• Key Quote:

  “I like watching soccer when I watch it with other people who watch soccer, because then they can explain to me what’s happening. Every time I watch soccer, they’re calling people offsides. I’m like, who’s offsides? Why are they offsides? Why is that a foul?” — Devin (06:00)

• Culture Clash: Manny and the group discuss the contrast with U.S. sports, where higher scores and “wow moments” are more apparent. Soccer’s beauty is in its accessibility and the subtle skill — but it’s harder for newcomers to appreciate (07:13–09:02).
• Notable Quote:

  "The reason you think soccer is boring is the same reason babies are addicted to iPads. You need constant and frequent stimulation in order to feel fulfilled... It’s not soccer—it’s you." — Manny (10:15–12:36)

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2. Why Do English People Hate the Word "Soccer"? (16:06–21:37)

• History Lesson (from guest Stefan Szymanski):
  • The word “soccer” originated in England, coined at Oxford in the late 1800s. Brits used it interchangeably with “football” until the U.S. popularized it.
  • The shift in British attitudes is more about cultural anxiety and anti-Americanism than about the actual word.
• Notable Quotes:

  “Americans adopted the word soccer from the English. The most important thing to say is that Americans adopted the word soccer from the English.” — Stefan Szymanski (17:35)
  “It must be about something else. It’s a stupid argument, so it must be about something else. What it’s really about is anti-Americanism... The one thing the U.S. does not historically dominate is soccer.” — Stefan Szymanski (20:26)

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3. Why Has U.S. Men’s Soccer Struggled? (21:37–25:45)

• Expert Analysis (Ashish Malhotra):
  • Sports like baseball, basketball, and American football dominate U.S. youth sports—top male athletes gravitate away from soccer.
  • Women’s soccer thrives because it has a higher spot on the sports “totem pole” for girls.
  • The “pay to play” system excludes lower-income, usually more talented, urban players—a contrast to international soccer where talent often comes from disadvantaged backgrounds.
• Notable Quotes:

  “There’s the pay to play element of all this...such a high barrier of entry for the average player.” — Manny (23:31)
  “In the U.S., people are looking for talent...in the rich middle classes. And that’s probably not where it is. It’s probably amongst the poor kids in the city.” — Stefan Szymanski (25:24)

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4. The European Transfer System: Is It Like Human Trafficking? (26:30–32:38)

• Summary of the System:
  • In the U.S., trades mean a player and their contract shift teams; in Europe, players’ contracts are torn up, and clubs “buy” the right to sign new ones.
  • Szymanski argues the system restricts player freedom, with echoes of human trafficking, especially for lesser-known, low-wage international players.
• Real-World Example:
  • A young Gambian player made an arduous journey to Italy, only to be denied a move to a better club due to the transfer system, despite being mistreated and underpaid (31:30–31:45).
• Notable Quotes:

  “That is human trafficking. You can’t buy people. But that’s actually how it’s talked about even in soccer.” — Stefan Szymanski (27:21)
  “The real point about the transfer system is it prevents young, mostly young kids, freely moving when they want to move.” — Stefan Szymanski (30:25)

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5. Promotion and Relegation vs. American Franchise Sports (32:38–38:17)

• Explaining Promotion/Relegation:
  • In Europe, bad teams are punished by being dropped to a lower league; in the U.S., the same teams are insulated by a franchise system and often rewarded for failure with better draft picks.
  • European systems create deep community ties—even small towns have their own teams, and there’s always hope of climbing the ranks.
• Notable Quotes:

  “There’s never such a thing as tanking in soccer because the consequence of poor performance are you’re punished for failure. The US system rewards failure with a draft pick.” — Stefan Szymanski (33:15)

• Social Justice vs. Entertainment:
  • Szymanski picks eliminating the transfer system (“human trafficking”) over implementing promotion/relegation, saying “I’ll go for social justice.” (37:14)

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6. Best Record vs. Playoffs: American vs. European Championships (38:17–39:02)

• Should U.S. Sports Honor Best Regular Season Records?
  • Manny and Ashish debate whether teams with the best records should be crowned champions, or if playoffs add necessary drama.
  • Ashish argues soccer doesn’t need playoffs—the league season should stand on its own.
• Notable Quotes:

  “I think that is how things should work...you don’t need playoffs in soccer.” — Ashish Malhotra (38:47)

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7. FIFA and Corruption (39:02–43:52)

• Corruption’s Colonial Roots:
  • FIFA was historically dominated by European colonialists.
  • After WWII, more countries joined FIFA, but the system favored patronage and political loyalty over merit, leading to widespread corruption.
  • Host nations often use the World Cup for “sportswashing” reputations, from Italy under Mussolini to Russia under Putin and the U.S. with Trump positioning himself front and center for 2026.
• Notable Quotes:

  “Infantino and Blatter...they buy votes...They funnel money that’s generated by FIFA largely from the European network of revenue generation to the developing nations or to the appointees in the developing nation. And that’s the problem.” — Stefan Szymanski (41:37) “People use the term sportswashing, but it’s happening right here in the U.S....to distract from things that have been done both at home and abroad.” — Ashish Malhotra (43:34)

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8. Soccer’s Global Community Appeal (47:28–50:22)

• Community and Identity:
  • Devin shares travel anecdotes about soccer's universal reach. Fans across the world can bond instantly over the game, regardless of language or origin.
  • Manny emphasizes the loyalty supporters give even to “small” or “hopeless” local teams—something American sports rarely mirror.
• Notable Quotes:

  “Soccer’s the universal language. Like, you can bond over wanting your team to win no matter where you are.” — Devin (48:35) “They’re your local team and it doesn’t matter how small the games are or how inconsequential it is. You just go support them because they’re the team that was made around the corner from you.” — Manny (49:03)

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Memorable Moments & Key Quotes

• "The reason you think soccer is boring is the same reason babies are addicted to iPads... The problem isn't with soccer. The problem is you." — Manny (10:15–12:36)
• "Americans adopted the word soccer from the English... It must be about anti-Americanism." — Stefan Szymanski (17:35–20:26)
• "That is human trafficking. You can't buy people... But that's how it's talked about even in soccer." — Stefan Szymanski (27:21)
• "Soccer’s the universal language... you can bond over wanting your team to win no matter where you are." — Devin (48:35)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:40–07:48 – Why isn’t soccer bigger in the U.S.? Hosts’ personal experiences
• 16:06–21:37 – The word “soccer” and English identity
• 21:37–25:45 – Why U.S. men’s teams struggle
• 26:30–32:38 – Transfer system and human trafficking analogy
• 32:38–38:17 – Promotion/relegation vs. franchise system
• 39:02–43:52 – FIFA’s corruption, legacy of colonialism, sportswashing
• 47:28–50:22 – Soccer’s global community aspect

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Episode Takeaways

• Cultural Barriers: Soccer’s slow acceptance in the U.S. stems from entrenched sports cultures, misunderstanding of the game’s beauty, and lack of widespread, accessible community engagement.
• Structural Injustice: The European transfer system and U.S. pay-to-play model perpetuate exploitation and close the sport off to many.
• Cultural Ownership and Language: Arguments about the word “soccer” mask deeper anxieties about American cultural dominance and identity.
• Corruption and Power: FIFA’s politics are shaped by colonial legacies, global economics, and ongoing “sportswashing.”
• Universal Language: Despite all, soccer remains a singular global connector—anyone, anywhere, can belong to its community.

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Where to Find More

• Soccernomics Podcast: Hosted by Stefan Szymanski and Ashish Malhotra—available wherever podcasts are found (@SoccerNomicsPod)
• NO SUCH THING: New episodes Wednesdays; subscribe at nosuchthing.show
• Listener feedback/questions: [e-mail] | Voicemail: [phone]

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Announcer]

Kaleidoscope.

[Manny]

I'm Manny.

[Noah]

I'm Noah.

[Devin]

This is Devin.

[Manny]

And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're going to be answering some interesting questions about the beautiful game. We'll find out the real reason why English people hate the word soccer. We'll dive into whether the European European transfer system is too reminiscent of human trafficking. We'll discuss why the United States men's soccer team has historically struggled. Although shout out to the women. All of that and more. There's no.

[Stefan Sheminski]

No such thing.

[Manny]

No such thing.

[Stefan Sheminski]

No such thing.

[Manny]

No such thing. No such thing.

[Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human

[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Announcer]

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[Manny]

the midst of my favorite sporting event. Not just my favorite sporting event, but also the favorite sporting event of most people in the world. It's the World Cup.

[Devin]

The Olympics.

[Manny]

That's a great question. I would bet. Yeah. I would bet. Yeah. Or people passively watch the Olympics versus people are really into the World cup

[Devin]

in terms of more engaged audience, as you like to say.

[Manny]

Yeah. The quality of the audience member, I think is it goes the World Cup. So I think many of our listeners are not necessarily sports inclined people. But I want to invite you to stick around because we are going to be talking about soccer, of course, but also about all the kind of interesting angles into soccer such as economics and even human trafficking. A little bit. A little bit later.

[Devin]

Soccer versus football.

[Manny]

Yes, exactly. So even if you're not a huge sports head, I think this episode's going to be really interesting for you. You two, you're not really soccer heads, I don't think. I think Noah played soccer. You played soccer.

[Noah]

Yeah, I've never been a big watcher. Like I'll tune in for the bigger World cup matches.

[Manny]

You're not a group stage viewer? Not really.

[Noah]

Not at this point. And I've, you know, I've watched Premier League vaguely, but. Yeah, you don't have. I wouldn't even call myself a casual.

[Manny]

Okay, you're less than a casual. Okay.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Devin, you have almost no relationship to the sport.

[Devin]

Even lower than casual. What would you call that?

[Manny]

I don't know, just a civilian civilian

[Devin]

that happens to sometimes accidentally see some soccer.

[Noah]

You know what it is? Yeah.

[Manny]

The U.S. soccer Federation, which runs the soccer operation in the United States is trying to fix this.

[Devin]

Oh, the fact that I don't.

[Noah]

That you're a civilian.

[Manny]

They want you guys to be more into soccer. And I'm curious what you think they could do. There's an effort happening right now to get more Americans into the sport because, you know, obviously there's money to be made, but also they feel like it's better for the soccer environment. It's better if the United States is able to compete with its international colleagues. And so I'm curious what you think they could do to. To get you on board. For example, that right now they're doing a lot of these relationships between NFL teams and Premier League teams. So if you're a fan of the Eagles, you now have a sister team in the Premier League.

[Noah]

Yeah, that's not going to do it. I'm trying to think of what, why I don't watch it. To me, it's like I, I watch basketball most heavily of any sport. Yeah. To me, I get enough of my fix from the regular NBA season that I'm like, I'm not dying for more sports. Yeah. Year round.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Other people definitely feel differently and switch to then whatever the main sport is of the season.

[Manny]

Because you're not really watching any other sport besides basketball.

[Noah]

Not really. And I. It just. For me, it's just the time that I want to give to something. So, like, Devin, I'm curious. You watch baseball?

[Devin]

Honestly, I watch a lot of baseball, yeah.

[Manny]

And you'll watch basketball or football if it's like kind of a. Either a bigger.

[Noah]

Yeah, I watch a big game.

[Kal Penn]

Yeah.

[Devin]

I watch like the super bowl or finals, but, like. Yeah.

[Noah]

So, I mean, baseball is also. That's very time consuming.

[Manny]

Is that part of why you think

[Noah]

you're not interested in popular soccer?

[Devin]

Yeah, it's like, even there's. I feel like with other sports, I'm so. And this is my issue at soccer. I like watching soccer when I watch it with other people who watch soccer, because then they can explain to me what's happening. Every time I watch soccer, they're calling people offsides. I'm like, who's offsides? Why are they offsides? Why is that a foul? Why is that not a foul? I just feel like I don't understand it. So I'm not gonna watch it by myself.

[Ray Porter]

Yeah.

[Devin]

I need some sort of community. So to your question, what would get me to watch more soccer if it became sort of this thing that, like, if I weren't watching it, I was missing out. The World cup has a little bit of that.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Devin]

Especially when you get to the later stages. But, like, you know, that's. That, you know, the Knicks just won the championship, and that was. I didn't watch any of the games until the finals. And it was like, it became a thing that, like, if you weren't watching, it was on Twitter, it was on Instagram, it was like, everywhere. So, like, to not watch, you felt like you were missing out on it. I feel like basically, I'm going to be one of the last people to get on board with soccer. It's got a lot of work to do. But when it becomes the thing that, like, if you didn't see that you can't participate in a conversation. Yeah, that's when I would get involved with that.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

We're at a disadvantage here in the United States in the sense that soccer is not ingrained into American culture in the same way that it is in Europe or in South America. But, yeah, what you guys are saying in terms of, like, how you can try and get into the game, I think resonates with most people in the United States. There used to be the problem of soccer just seeming kind of boring. Like, not a ton is happening in soccer. When you're looking at it from the lens of American sports where, like, the scoring is much more frequent and the things that are happening in soccer that aren't scoring aren't going to seem important to you unless you like soccer already.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Yeah.

[Noah]

I was going to say, I think it's like the. Let me be careful here. The athleticism is, is. It's very high, of course, but it's less obvious maybe. Yeah. When you're watching it, when you see someone go on a tear and they're hitting 10 threes in three minutes or something and just like this crate or like some crazy finish at the rim in basketball. Yeah. To me, I mean, I'm biased, I guess, because I watch more basketball, but that seems like so clearly anyone could watch them be like some crazy duck. You watch and you go, whoa. Versus an amazing soccer play. Might be incredible. It would be impossible for anyone, any normal civilian to do.

[Manny]

But it doesn't.

[Noah]

Doesn't look as crazy because it's like, well, I can run. Yeah.

[Stefan Sheminski]

You know, I can do ball.

[Noah]

Yeah. It's like, I can do that, you know?

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Obviously not true.

[Manny]

It's. Well, I think. Well, you're right. And also if I'm going to be a soccer propagandist here, that's part of the beauty is that it's such an accessible sport.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Where you, like, anyone can play it anywhere in the world. All you need is like a ball figure.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Manny]

It's hard to know how hard it is to like, aim a ball and a specific part of the goal unless you've tried to do it. Whereas you don't need to try and dunk a ball to see how impressive it is, you know?

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Yeah. I think maybe the most impressive looking thing in soccer, it is easy to miss.

[Kal Penn]

It's.

[Manny]

It's just these guys are fully sprinting but keeping the ball right in front of them, like.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

I played soccer growing up and I can't do a full sprint while dribbling.

[Noah]

The hand.

[Devin]

Eye coordination is incredible.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Ashish Malhotra]

Yeah.

[Manny]

There's some.

[Noah]

Yeah. To not just trip over. I mean. Yeah.

[Manny]

And some of the.

[Devin]

Just running. If you told me I don't even got to kick the ball, I just got to run as much as they're running.

[Manny]

You're running from 8.5 to 9 miles in a match.

[Devin]

Insane.

[Manny]

Unless you're Cristiano Ronaldo and you just stand there until the ball comes closer to you. There are brands of players who.

[Devin]

That don't run.

[Manny]

They don't run as much.

[Devin]

That would be me My Bram would be. I'm going to stand right here by the goal.

[Noah]

I'm ready here.

[Devin]

Bring it back over here and I'll kick it in.

[Noah]

That's how you'd be offsides.

[Devin]

Exactly. It's.

[Noah]

You'd learn fast.

[Manny]

After the break, we're going to talk to the hosts of the Soccer Nomics Podcast, based on the hugely popular Soccer Nomics book. But first, I've got to get something off my chest. Recently, Dave Portnoy of Barstool Sports had some suggestions about how to make soccer more entertaining.

[Devin]

Make the nets about 100 times bigger,

[Manny]

have power plays, have different things. I got a lot of things that

[Stefan Sheminski]

I think soccer purists wouldn't exactly love hearing me say.

[Manny]

So Dave had that suggestion and others with the. With the purpose of, you know, making soccer more entertaining. But here's the problem, Dave. The reason you think soccer is boring is the same reason babies are addicted to iPads.

[Devin]

Mmm. Talk to him.

[Manny]

You need constant and frequent stimulation in order to feel fulfilled. And that has ridden you of the ability to appreciate story movements, a slow burn, all the things that make the goal that finally happens feel that much better. So he's bringing that up to make soccer more entertaining with the idea that there will be more goals. But Dave is also an American football fan, and so am I. You gotta remember that the high scoring games in football are not as high scoring as they seem. Yeah, A touchdown is worth seven points. You get. Your average NFL game is like 28 to 14 or whatever. Okay, divide by seven, that's four to two, which is much closer to a soccer match.

[Devin]

So maybe we should just make the goals count.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Five points each.

[Ashish Malhotra]

Yeah.

[Manny]

I, as a huge American football fan, understand why the score needs to be six points plus the extra point. Because there are different ways to score that are worth different values.

[Devin]

You could get two points, two point conversion.

[Manny]

Yeah. Or a field goal. That's three points. It's a fallacy that there's like way more scoring happening in American football. The difference is that you just grew up with the sport and you're more acclimated to watching it. And so am I. And making the goal bigger defeats the purpose. The whole point is that it's hard to score a goal and that's why it feels so great when it happens.

[Noah]

Oh, yeah. The problem isn't the number of points.

[Manny]

Now, Dave, I used to be like you. I used to make it my personality to say that baseball was boring. When I was in elementary school and middle school, it felt great. Just shitting on baseball all the time as a boring sport.

[Devin]

We were at our peak.

[Manny]

Now, as an adult with a fully functioning frontal lobe, I can appreciate baseball. And in fact, I'm now a Bandwagon Guardians fan. Proudly the problem isn't with soccer. The problem is you.

[Devin]

Dave, let him know.

[Manny]

But that's enough of my silly takes. When we get back from break, we will be with the hosts of the Soccernomics podcast.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo. Is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point, it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me, and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Announcer]

Aging is real. And so are the benefits of adding vital proteins, collagen peptides to your daily routine. Because around the age of 30, your body needs backup to keep your collagen up to help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. Available in the classic collagen peptides, collagen and protein shakes, and new vital proteins collagen. Sparkling waters so you can stay vital. Stay you. Visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[Manny]

Hey, guys. Have you ever found yourself craving a cold snack?

[Noah]

Yep.

[Manny]

Do you even know what a cold snack is? I do. Well, some of you may have noticed I've been wearing a Montucky shirt on the video version of the podcast. And that's because Montucky makes my favorite cold snack.

[Kal Penn]

That's right.

[Manny]

It's a cold, snackable beer and summer is the best time to enjoy it. You're right. There's Montucky is a light American lager from Bozeman, Montana. It's snackable, shareable and perfect for all occasions. Hey, that sounds like the dream beer to me. Go to montuckycold snacks.com snack-finder to find Montucky cold snacks and a retailer near you. And if you're looking for some Montucky merch, use important snacks. Snacks all one word for 20% off their merch store. They got some cold horses on those cans. Cold snacks. All right, we are back. I'm Manny. I'm Noah Devin and we have two guests joining us today. Ashish Malhotra is a journalist whose work has been seen in the LA Times, the Guardian and Al Jazeera and more. And Stefan Sheminsky is a professor of sports management at the University of Michigan. They both host the Soccernomics podcast which is based on the best selling book written by Stefan here and Simon Cooper. Stefan and Ashish, thank you so much for joining us.

[Ashish Malhotra]

Thanks for having us.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Thanks for having us.

[Manny]

I want to start first by getting your guys brief explanation of what soccer nomics is and why it's an interesting way to look at the game of soccer.

[Stefan Sheminski]

I approached Simon Cooper back in the mid 2000s and really wanted to persuade him that this data revolution that was going on in sport was going to happen in soccer. And this was just a few years after Moneyball. And first he was skeptical, but when I went through all the different ways that economists, psychologists, social scientists in general have used soccer data to try and understand the game better, he was persuaded. He always had a bent for statistics anyway. And so we came up with this idea of what you can learn about the beautiful irrational game by applying rational social science.

[Ashish Malhotra]

And I'll just add that at the time that the first book book came out, I was in college and I remember it and I actually have right here the original copy bought in Borders.

[Manny]

I want to get into our topics. I want to start with one that's been kind of annoying me for a while now. My wife is English and she's got a lot of English friends and we are in England often. And whenever I utter the word soccer, I get the most disgusted looks in response. I'm just curious, can you guys just walk us through why Americans even call this game soccer?

[Stefan Sheminski]

Right. So the most important thing to say is that Americans adopted the word soccer from the English. The English coined this word. It's thought in Oxford University in Sometime in the 1880s, 1890s, there is newspaper mentions of this invention, several from that era. So it's not really in doubt that it's a word that comes from English that the English use. So whenever somebody tells you as an American that you shouldn't be using this word, well, if it's good enough for the English, it's good enough for me. And after all, I grew up. So I grew up in the 60s and 70s in London, and my recollection of that era is that it was fine to call it soccer, that I grew up thinking those. Yeah, these were. And I asked a lot of friends from that era if that was true, and they all agreed that they don't remember this being a big deal. And it really is. In the 60s and 70s, when the NASL became very popular in the US it was the first time Brits knew that Americans knew about soccer. We all thought you only knew about baseball and what we call American football, and we didn't think you had anything to soccer. The moment you start to say, talking about soccer, which is obviously the right word to use in America because football means something else, then the Brits get really antsy and start saying, you can't use that word. I wrote a book about this with a professor of comparative literature here, professor in Michigan, Professor Zukovinek. And we think it's the only example in linguistics of what we call an exile word, a word that was common currency amongst a group of language speakers who then decide that this word is now no longer acceptable because somebody else uses it.

[Ashish Malhotra]

And, you know, the thing is, because Stefan, like, you know, we can't say this, right, with American accents. We can't say, oh, soccer is an English word. No one's gonna believe us. But Stefan, Stefan with that accent. And it has so much more power, right? It makes it more acceptable. So it's really pretty incredible, right, because again, at the University of Michigan last year, one of the cool things I was able to do was audit classes. So I audited one of Stefan's classes where they got into this. And, you know, he's given you the summary there. But some of the research that he and Zylka went into, you know, they. Research looking back at old newspaper clippings in the UK in the 50s and the 60s, showing that soccer was used as interchangeably as football in common sort of lexicon in the UK in those days. And like you said, it's only once Americans started using it a lot that the Brits got pissed off and said, oh, that's a dirty word. You can't use it. But, you know, some of the research they did even shows that a lot of autobiographies of some of the most famous footballers or soccer players from that era, like George Best, for instance, have the word soccer in the title.

[Stefan Sheminski]

They're also. There's a bit of a deeper point here that this is ultimately a completely stupid argument, because who cares what Americans want to call the sport, that when they play it, it's really nobody else's business and nobody has. So it must be about something else. It's a stupid argument, so it must be about something else. So what it's really about anti Americanism, right? This is about sticking it to the Americans. Because the. Because again, the part of this is, this is the cultural anxiety of the British. The British. We all know that American culture dominates pretty much everything, right today. Television, movies, music, it's all largely US dominated. The one thing the US does not historically dominate is soccer. And of course, already the women have given the lie to that because they now totally dominate women's soccer. And then if the men get better, then the Brits are just going to lose it totally. Which is also why you see non English speakers, Germans, French, Italians, they join in on this. What's it got to do with them, whether it's called soccer or. Anyway, so it just tells you it's actually about cultural dominance really more. And it's a political issue more than really, it is about the word itself.

[Manny]

So you mentioned, you know, the American women have been dominant in soccer for a while now, but the men are not dominant, but they're getting better, they're making some progress. Progress hasn't always been the case, though. And I want to turn to Ashish for this question. Historically speaking, why does the US Struggle with soccer? Why haven't we been as competitive as some of the other nations in the world?

[Ashish Malhotra]

Well, I think it ultimately comes down to popularity of the sport, right, where you've got so many other sports here in the US which are more dominant, that kids are sort of being shoveled into when they're young, whether it's American football, baseball, basketball. And so the best athletes aren't necessarily, necessarily getting into soccer or they're getting into it when they're a young age. But ultimately they go another way in women's sports. Soccer is higher up on that pyramid. And so I think that's why you see that difference. And with the US Team, you've seen over the years with this current team, I remember the 2014 team in particular as well, had A lot of players who were American by citizenship, but maybe didn't grow up here, maybe had one American parent, but they grew up in Europe. They played the game there, they learned the game there, they came over. It's a similar thing with this team. And so you're saying that that's the way that the US Ends up having to sort of get their best team rather than having too much homegrown talent.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Also, American men aren't that impressive. American women are much more impressive.

[Manny]

Yeah, I mean, I grew up playing soccer, and I remember instances where if you were really good, if someone felt like you had a lot of talent, the next move for you would be to join an academy or a club, like a youth club. And that was kind of the route you had to take. But it was expensive. Like, I, I wasn't amazing, but I was okay, but I could only play in, like, the public schools because, yeah,

[Ashish Malhotra]

there's the pay to play, the pay to play element of all this.

[Manny]

Yeah, there's such a high barrier of entry for the average player.

[Stefan Sheminski]

But isn't, I mean, isn't that also true in baseball where, you know, you have to travel a lot for baseball? And, and I know that, that there is. Is this issue in baseball about a declining share of, of American men in, In. In the, In Major League Baseball, but is it really that different? And you still have a lot of great, very good, impressive American men in baseball. So I, I'm not sure I, I buy that entirely. I think I, I mean, I think I, I. Because I think it's also. It's just. It's partly culture. I mean, it's just, you know, if you look at it, it's that. That soccer is built into people's international cultures in a way that it's not. Not quite yet built into the US Culture. And maybe it will be one day. In a sense, in every country, it's a search for talent. And sort of one question which all countries have to face, is, where do we go to look for that? So, I mean, India is interesting because it's an essentially a predominantly rural country, still one of the most rural countries in the world. A lot of people think, go to the villages and look for there, but actually where you really want to be is in the slums, where you have large collections of. Of people who are. And that's where you'll find a lot of talent. They're hugely populous. There's, you know, hundreds of millions of people just living in these very, very poor slums in India. And that's where you get. That's where you get the players. And if you think about it, I mean, a lot of countries actually, where you find the talent is usually in the poorer areas. It's not. I mean, you think of the. Do we talk about the favelas in Brazil? We talk about this in basketball in the US you know, and even in England, we talk about the back streets of England where you find the players in Paris, all the. All the. These huge crop of fantastic French players. They all come from the Bonlieux, the outskirts of Paris, which is very. Which are very poor and deprived.

[Ashish Malhotra]

So French players and players for many, many countries across Africa and stuff with the diaspora.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Exactly. So it's interesting where you go to look for talent. And, you know, I think there is an argument to say in the US people are looking for talent, as you say, through the travel, soccer in the. In the rich middle classes. And that's probably not where it is. It's probably amongst the poor kids in the city. And that's probably being neglected in the US and as it is being neglected in many other countries.

[Ashish Malhotra]

One of the things that Stefan is kind of getting at there, and I think him and Simon have really looked into and talked about a lot in soccer nomics, is sort of these ideas of hubs. Right? So whether it's within Europe that soccer is where soccer in Western Europe is so dominant in world football. A lot of that has to do with all these countries being closely populated together, where there's this exchange of ideas with soccer. And it's a similar thing with all of these sports when it comes to urban versus rural. The idea that Stefan's getting at, I think, is that, you know, when you've got people all sort of close to each other, that's where you get better. You're playing against people, all sorts of different people every day. You're getting better that way. Whereas if you're in a rural part of a country, you're not getting that same level of competition.

[Manny]

One of the arguments you've made, Stefan, is that, you know, here in the United States we have for professional sports trading system where I could trade Noah for Devin, for example, and that might come with extra things. I might trade Noah for Devin and draft pick, for example. It works so much differently in different soccer leagues around the world, where I could just buy Noah if I spend enough money. He's mine now. And you've argued that this player transfer system in soccer is maybe too reminiscent of human trafficking. And I'm kind of curious if you can Just walk us through your thought process and argument there.

[Ashish Malhotra]

How long do you have? This is Stefan's favorite topic. He could go for a few hours.

[Stefan Sheminski]

I don't really have to go much further than you could buy. Noah.

[Kal Penn]

What?

[Stefan Sheminski]

What are you dreaming about? That's insane. We don't do that. That is human trafficking. You can't buy people. But that's actually how it's talked about. Even in soccer, you can't. What you can buy is the right to his contract. And what happens in soccer, which is different from the US Is when a player is traded in the US you move with the contract you already had so your new team continues to pay your contract. In soccer, the old contract is torn up and a new one is signed with the new club. And the logic of paying the old club for this is you're paying them for tearing up the contract, and that's a compensation for that. That sort of economic loss, allegedly. But what this is really about. And there was a similar trading system in the U.S. actually, if you go back in baseball back in the day, up until the 1950s, when you had something called the reserve clause, which essentially tied a player to his baseball club in perpetuity. And that system was abolished in the 1970s through legal action. But the problem is that's never really happened in soccer. There's been a number of legal cases, but there's never been a real fundamental challenge to this.

[Devin]

This.

[Stefan Sheminski]

And think about this in your own life. Would you think that it was at all reasonable if you, I don't know, NBC, say, wanted to hire you, and you went to, say, the. The owner of no such thing, who's got you under contract, who you're working for a contract, and said, oh, I've got a chance to go to NBC. I'm going to go. He said, oh, no, you're not. Not unless NBC agrees to pay me a million dollars. Outraged.

[Manny]

Which I've tried to get them to do, and it didn't happen, you'd consider

[Stefan Sheminski]

that a fundamental breach of your human rights, which it is. And it's only professional soccer players, or pretty much only professional soccer players. These kind of the only workers in the entire world. And to be clear, in the U.S. people often say, well, they have collective bargaining, so the players agree to this. That never happened in soccer. There's never been. The players never agree to this system.

[Ashish Malhotra]

I think that lens on it that Stefan just touched on is really interesting as well. It's how that lens that he just walked us through, how different that is, how the Average fan looks at it, right? And so I think this topic, the first time Stefan and I talked about it, was probably the most heated conversation that we've ever had on the streets of Ann Arbor, Michigan, because basically I was coming at it from the fan's perspective. And the fan's perspective often is on this issue, when a player wants to move to another team and they kind of are maybe starting to not show up to practice or give their all at practice because they want to leverage the other team to let them go, the narrative is, how dare this player do it? They should be loyal to this team. You know, we're fans of this team. There's no loyalty. And that's kind of the lens that people have. But as Stefan talks about, you know, this is really about economic mobility.

[Stefan Sheminski]

There's another dimension to this that's really important as well. But bear in mind, when you think about American professional sports, there are only, in each sport, there are only probably 2 or 3,000 professional sports total, right? In global soccer, there are something like 130,000 professional players worldwide. And most of those players are earning next to nothing. They probably don't make enough money to live on. They probably have to have a second job of some sort. So when people talk about transfers, they think about Messi or Kane or Mbappe or something like that. And that's not really who you should think of because the real point about the transfer system is it prevents young, young, mostly young kids freely moving when they want to move.

[Ashish Malhotra]

And for those lower level players, again, you know, like Stefan said, people are often thinking about really rich players who, who just want to move and make a couple of extra million. But for these lower paid people, when it comes to the system, we're actually talking about a system that can lead to things like abuse. And I know, Stefan, you, you met a young player in Italy who had, who had migrated from Africa, which I think really tells the story quite well, if you want to just share that, that.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Yeah. So this kid had, had, had come from the Gambia in West Africa and he had walked across the Sahara, hitchhike across the Sahara desert. He got enslaved in Libya, managed to escape, managed to get onto a boat and end up in Sicily, all because he wanted to be a professional player. He was quite a good player. Some fifth or sixth level team in Sicily actually took him on as a player and then promised him everything and then basically housed him in a shed and refused to pay him the money they were promised. And when another club offered him the chance to play because he was really good. And they could see that he was good. His employer wouldn't let him because he was within the transfer system. He was not free to move. So that's the sort of consequences. And the players unions have pointed out, in some countries, players get told they have to train at midnight if they fall out with the coach. Non payment of wages is absolutely common in the world of soccer. And sometimes actually physical abuse happens. There's actually cases of owners beating their players in some countries and the players are not free to go. And that's. It's just outrageous.

[Manny]

One thing that I do enjoy about the Premier League is that there's a consequence of being really bad. And the consequence is that you go to a lower ring of competition and you're there for the whole next season. And if you want to leave, you have to be the best, I think three teams in that league. And I'm curious about whether we should try to emulate this in American sports or what that even would look like. And you can start by just briefly describing the kind of closed franchise system of American sports where, like, you have to put a bid together if you even want a team.

[Stefan Sheminski]

The American professional sports system emerged as a franchise system where teams have to buy their way into the league and in exchange for their franchise fee, they get an exclusive territory and permanent membership of the league. And what that's evolved into is the major league sports, where essentially in each of the major league sports, you have around 30 professional teams for an entire nation of what, 350 million people? And also Canada as well. So if you think it's covering about 400 million people in the world of soccer, in Europe, you have a population that's roughly similar, about 400 million or so, maybe a bit more. And you have national leagues across, you have something like 54 National Leagues, and you have promotion and relegation from those systems. So the wor in each league, in each national league, the worst team can get relegated to the next level down purely on sporting merits. There's no ifs, ands or buts. So there's never such a thing as tanking in soccer because the consequences of poor performance are you're punished for failure. The US system rewards failure with a draft pick. The promotional relegation punishes failure by forcing you down. And there are many levels. It's not just two levels. In fact, in England, you could actually, depending on how you count it, you can go down to 20 or 30 levels. And in theory, in theory, you could start a team in England today, and 30 years from now you could be playing in the Premier League if you manage to get promoted every time, right up to the not likely to happen happen. But teams do move a lot. So teams move within, say a 50 year period. It's perfectly common for teams to move four levels across that period. So there's a lot of mobility up and down the system. So teams change their position. Famously, of course, Leicester City won the Premier League in 2016. They'd actually been down to the third level within living memory, within relatively recent memory within a previous decade. So they had gone up and down and of course now they're back down to the third level. They've gone down since they won it. That's the nature of mobility. And one big difference I would point out about this is that every town and city in Europe has a professional soccer team that there is, instead of having 30 teams for the continent, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of teams. And these are essentially local communities. And the way I would contrast this, if you go Back to the 1950s in the US you had hundreds and hundreds of minor league baseball teams all across the country, country. And now they're all gone. They buy. In fact, by 1962 they'd lost their independence. They were not financially viable. Why did they fail? A lot of people blame television because there was the decade that television came in that the minor league teams disappeared. But here's the thing, that television came to Europe as well. And it didn't destroy all the small soccer teams. The thing that kept them going was the hope of something better. And that's really the essence of the promotional relegation system. Wherever you're from, however small your town down there is some hope that one day your team will make it. And Leicester City proved actually it can be. Anybody can do this. And that's the thing that's missing in the United States. I think that's the real cost of this closed franchise system. Sure, the teams at the top are great. It's silly to say that major league sports aren't great. I mean they are great fun and, and produce a lot of entertainment. Of course they do. What it has done is it's turned the US into a kind of a bit of a desert. You have these oases which around the big cities where you have the big teams and then if you live anywhere else, there's just more or less nothing in terms of professional sports. And the thing that fills that gap really is the college sports. And if you didn't have the college sports, I think you really would have, you know, a real lack of entertainment for large parts of the country.

[Ashish Malhotra]

So, Stefan, if you had to pick one thing that either the US Tries promotion, relegation, or the transfer system gets eradicated, which would you pick?

[Stefan Sheminski]

Oh, oh, oh. Social justice versus entertainment. Which is it going to be? I think I'll go for social justice, Ashish. I don't think you can trick me into that one.

[Manny]

The way to win the Premier League is by having the best record, right? And I actually do think that American sports leagues should adopt that not as the main way to win. I still love a championship game. But we should start acknowledging the team that had the best record. They're very often not the team that ends up winning the championship. And if there's some kind of celebratory in incentive to being the team with the best record. For example, in 2016 in the NBA, the Golden State warriors had the best record in NBA history, 73 and 9. But then the Cavs beat them in the finals. And so we don't really talk about them having the best record in NBA history. If this were a European system, they would just win, and then maybe there'd be a separate thing like the FA cup that they could do a tournament in. But I. I really like that in the European soccer league, like, just being the best team means you won.

[Ashish Malhotra]

But I think in the world of soccer, I think that is how things should work. So, I mean, for instance, what you're talking about, where there's kind of like a hybrid where you get acknowledged for best regular season record and then you have playoffs. Still, that still seems silly to me in the context of soccer, because MLS does do that, right?

[Manny]

They have.

[Ashish Malhotra]

I forget what it's called, but they have a trophy for the team that has the best record in the regular season, and then they have some sort of playoffs. I think it's silly. Don't do the playoffs. You don't need playoffs in soccer. I think that's silly.

[Manny]

Yeah. One thing we haven't talked about, actually. I think a lot of people hear about how corrupt FIFA is, but don't really know exactly why. I'm wondering, can you guys walk us through like. Like the big bullet points as to why people think FIFA is as corrupt as it is?

[Stefan Sheminski]

Well, I think you have to go back, really, is about the. The origins of. Of. Of. Of soccer and the way it developed, particularly the origins of FIFA. So bear in mind, when fif in 1904, there are only 40 or 50 countries in the world because the rest of the world is ruled by European colonial powers. And what happens and that's when the World cup is founded in 1930. Again, there's only 50, 60 countries that could even possibly enter this. And of course, what we've seen after the Second World War, the post colonial era, we've seen the number of countries expand. We're now, what, about 210 affiliates of FIFA. And there are the consequences of what colonialism did in terms of economic power, just as that was true in the rest of all other economic activities. The colonial system concentrated soccer power in Europe and to some extent South America, and left out Asia, Africa, and oddly in this case also north and North America, and of course concacaf, the federation covers far more than the United States. Right. There's a lot of the Caribbean and Central American countries is included in that. And what's happened is that essentially up until the 1970s, FIFA was run by European colonialists. The guy who, the last guy from Britain to run it was a guy called Sir Stanley Rouse, who was an out and out, pro apartheid, keep South Africa in guy. And he was voted out in 1974 by Joao Havelanche, a Brazilian, who basically went to the developing nations and said, you know what? Give me the power, power, and I'll see right by you. I will redistribute the money that's coming from Europe to you. And so that was the deal. So that's one thing that's been good about this deal, which has lasted through this time, which is that the giving more access to the poorer nations, to the developing nations to, to participate. But there is a. The dark side to that is that Avalanche was essentially buying votes. He was saying, you know, vote for me and his successor, Blatter and now Infantino. They have followed that same model. They buy votes, they make promises that are politically attractive, and they funnel money that is generated by FIFA largely through. From the European network of revenue generation to the developing nations or to the appointees in the developing nation. And that's the problem. And one of the things that's striking about, for example, Cape Verde in this is that their success is interesting because they're also noted as one of the most uncorrupt nations in Africa. They have peaceful transfers of power. They have regular elections that are free and fair. And then in fact, some of their success may be due to that. And that's been the problem for developing nations is that the political systems in which they operate have been unfavorable and are susceptible to corruption. Again, which is also connected to the colonial legacy. And that has also made, you know, part explains why there's so much corruption in FIFA.

[Ashish Malhotra]

Yeah. A lot of what Stefan just got into is actually relevant to another project that I've been working on for the journalist Mehdi Hassan at Zateo, I created a video series called the Dark side of the World cup where we get into a lot of that stuff about how the system that Havalange and Blatter sort of put in motion, that really sort of leaned into looking at the world beyond just the old boys club of Europe and a few South American countries also created the system of patronage where these countries, their football associations were reliant on FIFA for development of football in those countries. But the trade off was that they were expected to be fiercely loyal to what those FIFA leaders wanted. The other aspect is that, you know, there's a long history of FIFA getting into bed with authoritarian leaders, which is something we've gotten into in that series as well. So it all started in 1934 with the World cup hosted by Mussolini in Italy, 1978, Argentina's military junta. But that didn't stop Havaland from sort of cozying up to them. And then more recently, we've seen in 2018 with Putin in Russia, the last World cup in Qatar. And then I think, very important to make the point this World cup of 2026. Right. You know, people often use this term, sports washing, to talk about when it's happening in certain parts of the world, but it's happening right here in the U.S. right? Trump has made himself front and center in the lead up to this World cup, and in many ways, it's to distract from. From things that he's been doing both at home and abroad.

[Manny]

Well, Ashish and Stefan, thank you so much for joining us. This was an illuminating conversation. Where can listeners find your podcast?

[Ashish Malhotra]

Yeah, so we are the Soccer Nomics Podcast. You can find us wherever you get your pod. And on social media, we're hestalkernomics Pod.

[Manny]

Awesome.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the next narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary, Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo. Is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no, at this point, it would kind of be betraying the the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply, emotionally affected me, and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Manny]

Hey guys, have you ever found yourself craving a cold snack?

[Noah]

Yep.

[Manny]

Do you even know what a cold snack is?

[Devin]

I do.

[Manny]

Well, some of you may have noticed I've been wearing a Montucky shirt on the video version of the podcast. And that's because Montucky makes my favorite cold snack. That's right. It's a cold, snackable beer. And summer is the best time to enjoy it. You're right, Terz. Montucky is a light American Lager from Bozeman, Montana. It's snackable, shareable, and perfect for all occasions. Hey, that sounds like the dream beer to me. Go to montuckycoldsnacks.com snack finder to find Montucky cold snacks and a retailer near you. And if you're looking for some Montucky merch, use important snacks all one word for 20% off their merch store. They got some cold horses on those cans. Cold snacks. Snacks. All right, fellas. Those were the hosts of the Soccer Nomics podcast. Something that happened with me with baseball before I was, before I got into it a little bit more, was just learning more about the history of the sport and like all the kind of other lens that you can look at baseball through. And I'm still kind of a fair weather kind of guy for the Guardians. Like I'll check in when they're in the playoffs, but it made me more interested in watching the sport and wonder if what you've learned today made you any more interested in, like, checking out at least the rest of the World Cup.

[Devin]

Well, now that I know human trafficking is involved. No, it is interesting to hear about. I love the community aspect of it. When I've traveled, I've seen this, too. I was, you know, not too long ago in Lisbon and, you know, coming home from, you know, eating dinner or something one night, or come back to the hotel and just seeing people with their soccer scarves on, going to a game. And this guy from London who I was talking to there was just sort of like, yeah, I'm just gonna go to a bar. You know, he was visiting, you know, to watch this game. And like, he's like, this is just cool. You can go. You can show up at a bar and not have anything in common. Like, he's like, not even speak the same language as the other person. But, like, soccer is the universal language. Like, you can bond over wanting your team to win no matter where you are. So that's really cool. Cause that's not. You know, with American sports, there is a bit of that. If you are a fan of, like, you know, one of the top teams, you can do that and go to another city and have that sort of be a thing.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Devin]

But it's certainly not the same community as soccer seems to be.

[Manny]

Yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, you really do support your local team over there, no matter how far down they are in the relegation system. I have an English friend who's a fan of this team called qpr, the Queens Park Rangers. And this is a team that's literally never going to win the Premier League. But, like, it doesn't matter because they're your local team.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

And it doesn't matter how small their games are or how inconsequential it is. You just go support them because they're the team that was made around the corner from you. The only reason you need is that there's some sense of community there.

[Noah]

It's a good perspective to have. As far as also the patience with the relegation system, where it's like, your. Your team might be in the fifth tier, but, you know, and then even just now, Stefan was saying, okay, yeah, like some local team, they beat Liverpool in 1989.

[Manny]

Yeah. And that's.

[Noah]

Sports fans are so spoiled here, where it's like, teams are bad for five years in the NBA, and it's like, what are they doing? Like, this is insane. You haven't even made the playoffs. It's like, well, look, look at these guys. They're loyal.

[Manny]

I'm for lifetimes at Ohio State State the year after they win the championship. Yeah, I'm like, what the fuck? Why didn't you go back to the championship game?

[Noah]

So maybe, you know, relegation. I like, I like more local teams and yeah, having a little bit more, you know, we're talking about the Knicks historic win after 53 years. Yeah, that's chump change compared to what's going on over here.

[Manny]

Well, this episode is publishing the morning of the United States first knockout game. Please help me in rooting for our boys. You know, I've been, I've been a US Soccer fan my whole life. It's never felt as bad as it does now, just geopolitically. But someone's got to root for the team.

[Noah]

This is bigger than politics.

[Manny]

If you're thinking of giving soccer a chance, give it a chance. Tonight at 8pm. No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatikov Cadur. The show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph, and the theme and credit songs are by me, Manny. The mixing is done by Steve Bone. Thank you to our guests this week, the hosts of the Soccer Nomics podcast, Stefan Sheminski and Ashish Malhotra. If you have feedback for us or a question you'd like us to answer, send us an [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. We'll be back next week with a new episode. It's called Soccer. It's called Football. Soccer.

[Kal Penn]

Football. Domino's Best deal ever lets you get any pizza, including stuffed crust, with any toppings for 9.99.

[Manny]

Okay, we can agree on that. Yeah, fully. So pineapple.

[Stefan Sheminski]

Don't ruin it.

[Ashish Malhotra]

Get any pizza, including stuffed crust with any toppings for 9.99.

[Manny]

Finally, something everyone can get behind. And if the rest disagree, that's between them and Domino's. Which means the only thing left to fight over is who's ordering.

[Announcer]

Dom.

[Manny]

Price is higher for some locations. Excludes XL and specialty pizzas. Select this offer from 615 to 726 online only. Size availability varies by crust. Tank max, 7 toppings, 6 for pan and New York style crust. Minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary.

[Announcer]

Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H4 back on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support, call 1-800-Grainger, click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Aging doesn't stop, and neither should you with vital proteins, collagen and protein shakes. Because around the age of 30, your body needs more support for movement and recovery. On workout and rest days, reach for a 30 total protein shake or go with our classic collagen peptides help support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints so you can stay vital. Stay you. Visit vitalproteins.com to learn more and where to buy these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

[Manny]

When Kohler, global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron iron, I said, I'm in. Soon after, I was in their Kohler, Wisconsin foundry watching molten iron poured, enamel applied by hand, and the beautiful finished pieces ready to ship. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron has been crafted by incredible artisans, and seeing it firsthand gave me a whole new appreciation for their craftsmanship. Now I'm proud to lend my stamp of approval to my favorite Kohler Cast Iron products products for their durability, beauty and enduring style. Shop my curated [e-mail]. as the Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador, I say, long live cast iron.

[Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.