NO SUCH THING – Presenting Mind Games | The Guru’s Guru

Date: January 21, 2026
Host: Kaleidoscope, featuring Alice Hines & Zoe Lascauve
Featured Guest: Nancy Salzman (NXIVM co-founder)
Series: Mind Games - An exploration by journalists Zoe and Alice into neuro-linguistic programming (NLP)

Overview

This special episode features the launch of the podcast “Mind Games,” where Alice Hines and Zoe Lascauve investigate Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)—a controversial blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. The episode centers on the personal journey and complicated legacy of Nancy Salzman—nurse-turned-NLP-guru and NXIVM co-founder—and teases the origins, promise, and dark side of NLP and its founder Richard Bandler. The hosts examine whether NLP is a revolutionary tool for behavioral change or pseudoscientific, manipulative hype.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nancy Salzman’s Introduction to NLP

• Background: Nancy is introduced as a nurse treating chronic pain, hindered by her severe public speaking phobia.
• NLP’s Draw: She recounts being “cured” after a short NLP session, leading her to a career as a successful coach and corporate consultant.
• Quote (Nancy):

  “She did an NLP phobia fix on me ... And look at me now—I am a big ham and I love public speaking.” (02:40)

• NXIVM Connection: Nancy founded the self-help company NXIVM based on these techniques, before its infamy due to abuse and cult activities.

2. What is NLP?

• Definition:

  “NLP is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.” (02:59)

• Applications: Used in therapy, business, sports, self-help, and the military.
• Skepticism: Labeled as pseudoscience in mainstream circles, yet practitioners report results.
• Examples:
  • “Manifesting, visualizations, vision boards ... If you’ve done any of that, you’ve done NLP.” (07:15)
  • Tony Robbins and Jordan Belfort are cited as celebrity users.

3. The Paradox of NLP: Hope and Harm

• NLP promises life transformation but is also linked to manipulation.
• Alice on NLP’s Scope:

  “We realized NLP is literally everywhere.” (07:06)

4. Hypnosis and NLP: Blurred Boundaries

• Hypnobirthing Demo: Alice undergoes a hypnobirthing session with Nancy Salzman, highlighting NLP’s overlap with hypnosis and relaxation (10:30–15:37).
• Personal Use: Alice listens to Nancy’s tape during pregnancy and feels its positive effects, though she checks for “creepy or subliminal messages” first.
• Quote (Alice):

  “I think it kind of did, yeah. Even listening to it now, it makes me feel relaxed.” (15:52)

5. NLP in Nancy’s Life and the Shadow of NXIVM

• Despite her criminal conviction, Nancy insists she’s proud of her NLP work and credits it for surviving prison and personal trauma (18:21–20:27).
• Quote (Nancy):

  “You have all of these tools, use them. And I put myself in a good state ... It is inexcusable for you to stay in this state ... use it.” (19:24)

• The hosts debate how credible Nancy is and whether she is promoting NLP to rehabilitate her image.

6. The Core of NLP: State Control and Anchoring

• “State Control” is the skill of shifting your emotional/mental state at will, learned from NLP co-founder Richard Bandler (21:15–22:01).
• Nancy attributes her emotional resilience—and even handling recent family loss—to these NLP techniques.

7. Richard Bandler: NLP’s Controversial Founder

• Dual Reputation: Genius healer and manipulator/dangerous bad boy.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “You have to go out and kick the shit out of your own problem first ... you’ve got to actively participate in your own life.” (27:07 – Bandler)
  • “If it is not bringing them wealth, ecstasy, and happiness all at the same time ... it’s gotta be pretty absurd.” (28:48 – Bandler)
• Lifestyle: Heavy drinker, drug use, and history of violence and even murder charges (he was acquitted).
• Nancy shares the story of (possibly) being manipulated by Bandler’s voice (anchoring) to let him drive her new car after he had consumed over ten martinis (31:01–32:01).

8. NLP Techniques and Ethics: Anchoring and Manipulation

• Anchoring Explained: Linking a specific stimulus (like a sound or voice tone) to an emotional reaction, used both purposefully and subconsciously.
• Nancy, despite being a master practitioner, was “anchored” by Bandler—demonstrating the technique’s power and potential danger.
• Quote (Nancy):

  “Oh, you just rewatched me. He anchored you to his voice ... when he would use that voice again, you would go back into that state.” (33:53 & 34:07)

9. NLP: Tool or Weapon?

• Nancy likens NLP to a knife—it can heal or harm, depending on the user’s intent.
• Fear “anchors” can make people more compliant—raising questions about NLP as a tool for manipulation (36:03–36:50).
• Stories of Bandler using threats (and possibly even a gun or gun-shaped lighter) to provoke psychological change—underscoring NLP’s controversial, possibly coercive, methods.

10. NLP’s Ubiquity and Legacy

• NLP’s techniques permeate mainstream therapy and self-help without widespread awareness.
• Even EMDR, a trauma treatment, was influenced by NLP.
• High-profile figures credit their success to NLP—including cult leaders and self-help moguls like Tony Robbins.
• The hosts preview upcoming explorations: investigating NLP’s science, interviewing practitioners and critics—including Richard Bandler himself.

Notable Quotes and Moments

• Nancy Salzman:

  “I'm absolutely proud of it. I'm not proud of how everything ended up.” (18:29)

• Zoe Lascauve:

  “This ability sounds incredibly seductive. I would honestly love to have more emotional control on command.” (23:35)

• Alice Hines:

  “But what’s scarier is the idea that the person teaching you these emotional control techniques could also use them against you.” (23:44)

• Richard Bandler, on self change:

  “Even though I do do it to them, I won’t tell them I did ... I still want them ... to get actively involved in their own life, actively involved in running their own brain.” (28:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |----------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:13–02:59 | Nancy’s phobia cure experience with NLP | | 03:34–03:53 | NXIVM: From self-help to scandal | | 10:30–15:37 | Alice tries Nancy’s hypnobirthing NLP session | | 18:21–22:01 | Nancy uses NLP for emotional survival in prison and coping with loss | | 27:07–27:30 | Richard Bandler’s philosophy: personal responsibility in therapy | | 31:01–32:01 | Nancy’s story: Letting Bandler drive her car after heavy drinking (“anchoring”) | | 33:53–34:07 | Anchoring explained—Nancy realizes how Bandler manipulated her | | 36:03–36:50 | NLP’s double-edged sword: used for good or harm? | | 37:56–39:06 | Stories of Bandler using threats/guns in therapy | | 41:22–41:51 | Bandler’s “sledgehammer” style: forceful behavior change | | 44:27–44:50 | Tease: Upcoming interviews and testing NLP on themselves and listeners |

Tone & Language

• Witty, skeptical, and conversational—even when tackling serious or disturbing material.
• The podcast balances open-minded inquiry (“what if this works?”) with a supported, investigative approach ("we sort of have to smell the bullshit, but at the same time, keep an open mind" - 05:33).
• Humorous asides and personal anecdotes ground the narrative in the hosts’ real experiences.

Summary

This inaugural episode of “Mind Games” investigates neuro-linguistic programming, introducing its seductive promise of instant change, its controversial origins, and the ethical perils inherent in such power. Through Nancy Salzman’s career arc—from nurse and NLP enthusiast to infamous cult leader and federal inmate—the hosts explore how NLP techniques can be weaponized or genuinely help. Anchored (no pun intended) by vivid stories, critiques, and first-hand experimentation, the show sets out to demystify NLP, confront its unsavory history, and probe its continued influence in modern culture.

Next episodes promise deeper dives: interviewing gurus and critics alike, testing techniques personally, and, as Alice puts it, “dig into those parts and the science of hypnosis behind them. And don’t worry, we will get to the murder.”

End of summary.