Should you recline your airplane seat?

Summary

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NO SUCH THING – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Should you recline your airplane seat?

Release Date: July 29, 2026
Hosts: Manny, Noah, and Devin
Featured Guest: Joshua Rothman (The New Yorker)
Main Theme:
The trio tackles the contentious etiquette of airplane seat reclining: Is it rude to recline your seat, or is it your right as a paying passenger? They investigate the history, ethics, ergonomics, and social psychology at play—plus, they hear opinions from listeners and an expert.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the polarizing debate: Should passengers recline their seats on airplanes, or is doing so inconsiderate given today's cramped conditions? Through candid conversation, listener input, expert insight, and a look at airline economics, the hosts explore whether reclining is a right, a privilege, or an antisocial act—and whether the real villain might be the airlines themselves.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Stances and Experiences

[03:30 – 06:20]

• Noah: Only reclines when the person in front does so, out of necessity. Dislikes abrupt, inconsiderate reclining; suggests maybe static, slightly-reclined seats would be better.
• Devin: Never reclines, partly out of consideration and partly because he naps easily sitting upright. “I always get the window seat for that reason.” [05:23]
• Manny: Sits wherever possible, manipulates his body for comfort, and is sympathetic to taller people’s discomfort.
• All agree: There’s not enough space for everyone to be comfortable.

2. Listener Voicemails: The Great Divide

[02:31 & 14:07]

• Opinions are split: some say “if you paid for the seat, use it as you like,” while others call it “fundamentally antisocial,” especially on flights under five hours.
• Notable quote: “I make myself the martyr who doesn’t recline and also has the seat in front of me slam into my knees.” [03:08]
• One listener points out: “The airline is the villain—it pits passengers against each other over a few inches while people up front fully lay down.” [15:10]

3. Public Opinion Shift

[10:16 – 11:09]

• Data from two surveys:
  • 2014 (FiveThirtyEight): 41% said reclining is rude.
  • 2022 (The Vacationer): 77% said so.
• Hosts discuss why resentment is growing: less legroom, more packed flights, and fraught air travel.

4. Expert Perspective – Interview with Joshua Rothman

[15:37 – 48:12]

• Historical Context & Airline Economics

  • Legroom has shrunk from about 35 inches to 31 inches since the 1980s.
  • Flying “golden age” was roomier, but today’s flights are drastically cheaper—adjusted for inflation, a Boston-to-LA roundtrip was over $4,500 in the 1940s vs. ~$480 now. [19:42]
  • Airlines respond to consumer price pressure: “We’re driving the prices lower and lower through competition.” [21:09]

• Comfort: Legroom vs. Seat Width

  • Dutch research: Seat width is more crucial than legroom for comfort. “If you can spread out across, you have to project forward less… your whole body is less smushed.” [17:20]

• The Ethics & Psychology of Reclining

  • There is no clear-cut rule; it’s “moral chaos.”
    • Pro-recline: “You have the button, you paid for the seat.”
    • Anti-recline: “Be considerate, you’re taking space from someone else.”
  • Airlines effectively sell the same little space multiple times.
  • Psychological cost vs. physical benefit: Reclining eases back pain for some, but the loss of personal space for others is often a psychological affront.

• Social Licensing & Chain Reaction

  • “If the person in front of you reclines, you feel more licensed to do it too.” [39:09]
  • The phenomenon of a “wave” of reclining down the aisle.
  • Social licensing can erode stated etiquette: people who claim to be anti-recline might do it when others do.

• Reactivity on Planes

  • Passengers react differently than on the ground—minor actions (seat adjustment) can trigger outsized responses (anger, altercations).
  • Featured anecdote: “Knee defender” device incident sparked a wave of diversions and a national debate. [44:47]
    • “Pressure cooker situation... makes 2 inches feel like life or death.”

5. Possible Solutions & Ergonomics

[25:26 – 33:35]

• “Pre-reclined” seats (all set at a fixed slight angle) can reduce social tension, but may not fit everyone’s ergonomic needs.
• Devin suggests: Default all seats to reclined, allow moving upright individually (rather than the other way around), shifting the expectation.
• Ultimately, ergonomic diversity (“the best posture is your next posture”) means no fixed angle will work for all.
• Noah: “Maybe we want equality, not equity—everyone gets the same adjustment, but no personal tailoring.” [28:20]

6. Summing Up: Is There an Answer?

[49:32 – 53:23]

• The hosts come to a resigned consensus:
  • Devin: “If you’re going to recline, do it respectfully. Just have some manners around it.” [51:14]
  • Noah: “Our lives might be a little better if we didn’t have the choice.” [51:33]
  • Manny: It’s mostly a psychological game—find your own peace if you can; the system is as good as it gets.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Responsibility:
  “In a just world, everyone could recline, but we as human beings just can’t handle the responsibility.”
  — Noah [03:45]

• On Airline Blame:
  “We’re all fighting in the back while people up front are fully lying down—it’s not us vs. us, it’s us vs. the airline.”
  — Listener voicemail [15:10]

• On Equality vs. Comfort:
  “We all come on here as human beings and we leave as human beings. If we start introducing all these adjustments, everyone’s gonna have a bad time.”
  — Noah [28:20]

• On the Rules:
  “There are no good arguments for or against on a purely ethical basis… This is one of these situations where there are no rules. It’s just moral chaos, period.”
  — Joshua Rothman [36:33]

• On Social Norms:
  “You can’t just make up a rule where no rule exists and then get mad because people violate the rule.”
  — Joshua Rothman [36:40]

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Important Timestamps

• Listener Voicemails Introduced: [02:31], [14:07]
• Hosts Debate Personal Policies: [03:30 – 06:20]
• Survey Data on Reclining: [10:16 – 11:09]
• Expert Interview Begins (Joshua Rothman): [15:37]
• Airline Economics Explained: [19:15 – 22:13]
• Ergonomics and Seat Design: [17:20, 25:26]
• Social Licensing and Recline Waves: [39:09 – 41:08]
• Knee Defender Incident: [44:47 – 47:02]
• Final Thoughts & Conclusion: [49:32 – 53:23]

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Episode Takeaways

• No simple answer: Reclining on planes is a matter of personal perspective, etiquette, and circumstance.
• Psychology trumps physics: The discomfort is often psychological, rooted in expectations of personal space.
• The real culprit: Shrinking passenger space is a byproduct of our demand for cheaper flights—and airlines' strategies to compete.
• Best advice: If you’re going to recline, do it thoughtfully. Recognize that everyone’s uncomfortable, and don’t take seat adjustments as a personal affront.
• Consensus: There is “no such thing” as a universal rule for airplane reclining—just a series of trade-offs and a need for mutual respect.

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For more discussions or to suggest the next “dumb argument”, subscribe to the NO SUCH THING newsletter or send your debate to the show's team.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey thingers. Just a heads up, NST will be taking August off to work on some new episodes. We'll be keeping the feed active with a few remastered classics and a couple other shows we love from friends of ours. Thanks for listening and you'll hear from us again in September. Now on with the show.

[B]

I'm Manny.

[A]

I'm Noah.

[C]

This is Devin.

[A]

And welcome to no Such Thing, the show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research this week. When flying, should you decline to recline.

[B]

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[F]

Hello Manny, Noah, Devin, I have some thoughts on reclining seats. I think it's absolutely okay to recline an airplane. I strongly believe that if you are paying for said seat, you should have the liberty to do whatever you want with that seat. Hi. Yes, absolutely it is okay to put your feedback in an airplane. Why else would there even be an option to put your seat back? I needed to chime in because I think it is a fundamentally antisocial Thing to do anything five hours or under. No one should be reclining. I mean, you're just a trash person if you decide to recline on an individual level. I will never recline my seat because I make myself the martyr who doesn't get any reclination and also has the seat in front of me slamming into my knees, which is just absolutely awful.

[A]

So we are discussing reclining on airplanes. Where do we stand?

[B]

I guess I've only ever had bad experiences with it.

[A]

Do you do it?

[B]

When I have to, because the person in front of me did.

[D]

Oh.

[B]

I think in a just world, everyone could recline, but we as human beings just don't act right, and we just can't handle the responsibility. Essentially, like I. On our flight to London recently, the person in front of me reclined, but it was so abrupt and abrasive that, like. And I had my laptop on the little table, and it, like, it didn't damage my laptop, but I was like, this is a very expensive piece of equipment. And it just got slammed by the. The chair. I don't know, maybe that's an airline problem. Like, maybe they shouldn't let the seats recline that quickly. But I don't, you know, unless it was an overnight flight, I don't ever feel inclined to use the recliner. Like, I don't understand. I don't really get why you need it. Um, I don't know. You'd prefer.

[A]

You think right now you would prefer just static seats?

[B]

Yeah. Maybe all of them recline, like, a small bit. Like. Like, maybe they come like that. Like, you can't. You can't adjust it, but they come a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With your back.

[C]

They got a little built in.

[A]

A recliner.

[B]

Yeah. But I just think the going back and forth, I don't know, it gets a little hairy.

[C]

Devin, I don't recline. Two reasons. I'm always worried about the person behind me and hitting them. But the second reason is I like to fall asleep. Soon as I get on the plane. I could fall asleep real quick.

[B]

Even a daytime flight.

[C]

Daytime, nighttime. I always start out every flight with a little nap. And I don't want the stewardess having to tell me to put my chair up. Put my chair up. Oh, yeah.

[A]

But you forget about that.

[C]

I don't care. You know, I'm just like, if it's all the way up, you don't gotta talk to me.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So.

[B]

So you can nap if it's all the way up.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

By any. I always get the window seat for that. Reason.

[B]

Oh, you lean your head on the.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But I think. I think people. For the. Sadly, I think people should not recline. That's my stance. I think there's not enough room. And I don't think the little bit of reclining that you get doesn't justify how uncomfortable the person behind you is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I guess my thought in response to that is if it's such a little amount of space, then what difference does it make either way?

[C]

Manny just told you.

[F]

He.

[A]

Yeah, but if you. If you recline too and got your

[B]

space, if everyone's reclined.

[A]

So it's kind of like there's only so much space no matter what.

[C]

I'm just like, we're all uncomfortable. Just sit straight up. Let's not play this game. And you recline. So I gotta recline them. The person behind me gotta recline. It's just like, let's. It sucks. You know, it's not comfortable. But I don't want to play this game and navigate in space.

[A]

So do you also think that they should just all be static?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Static up or static back?

[C]

I think static hard.

[A]

Doesn't matter.

[C]

I think a static slight. They should definitely not be as upright as they are when we get in them.

[A]

Okay. Which is how you sit in them, huh? That's how you sit.

[C]

That's how I sit. Because, hey, I'm not getting in the plane designing it myself. All right. This is the plane that was handed to me. All right.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

So I'm dealing within the constraints of what was given to me. I think about, like a car seat. You know, you get in a car, normally the car's not auto. Yeah. I guess you could make your car seat really straight up. But, you know, having a little. There's, you know, when you sit in the car, you have a little bit of recline. Not laying all the way back.

[B]

Like the passenger seat.

[C]

Yeah, passenger seat. Well, it's a normal, you know, normal angle for the passenger seat to be in. Maybe it's a 20%, you know, angle. And. And that's the way it should be.

[B]

Well, I.

[F]

You're.

[A]

You're going based on your. Your perfect standard of a seat. Like, don't you think people are different heights and sizes? Yeah.

[C]

Well, that's a whole other thing.

[B]

So think about our brothers and sisters.

[C]

My outro brothers and sisters should be the most outspoken against the recline because

[A]

don't they need it the most?

[C]

They do. Well, if you're above a certain height, you should get automatic first class seats.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Wow. I like that.

[C]

Hey, if you're six, four, six, five.

[B]

But how did they test it? They have to test it at the gate.

[C]

It should be like an 88 thing.

[B]

You know, it's like you're so tall, you're disabled.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's possible.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Well, like, I feel like room.

[C]

That's. I got on a recent flight a couple months ago, and I am only five nine. Yeah. My legs are a little bit longer for someone who is five nine.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

You don't need to brag.

[C]

I'm only a five nine man. Right. So by no means tall. Normal height. And I was like, there is no leg room on this flight to the point where I, like, my knees were just, like, really hitting the chair in front of me. So if that person. That person. That's before even the person was reclining. So imagine the person then is reclining. So, yeah, if you're above a certain height thing, you should get a separate section, whether that's first class or just more leg room. So what was your question?

[A]

I mean, I was just pointing out that you're kind of designating what is the most agreeable stance. But, you know, I'm just saying not everyone is gonna match your comfort level.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, no.

[C]

Yeah. Well, let me put it this way. I'm sorry. You don't get on a plane and then get to figure out what your ideal comfort level is. We gotta get something that, you know,

[A]

the button is there, though.

[D]

I know.

[A]

So I'll jump in here.

[B]

We're gonna get to.

[C]

I know where we used to.

[A]

We're. No, I'm just saying, for me, I'm like. I used to. I used to be very, like. I don't know why anyone would do that. I think it's really rude and whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now I'm kind of like. And for the listeners, I'm not tall. I'm not comfortable on flights either. But I'm like, wow. I can only imagine if I was right, right, right. Tall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This would be really horrible. But I'm kind of like, everyone on here is uncomfortable.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Tall, short, large, small.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, black, white, everyone purple. You know, we're all uncomfortable. No one's really feeling good on here, you know, so I'm kind of like, we don't have much control. People are using the small tools to feel a little bit better. For me, I'm not losing that much space because I'm already, like, manipulating my body to fit as best I can around my bags and other stuff. So let's we have a lot to say. Yeah, I can tell.

[C]

I'm not. I'm just getting started.

[A]

Let's final votes. Yes or no?

[B]

Yeah, I would like for us to.

[A]

Yes or no?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Recline.

[F]

No.

[B]

Recline.

[C]

No. Recline.

[A]

I'll say yes for Klein. Okay. All right. Heated already. So what do the people say at large? You know, we're just three. Three men weighing in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a new piece in the New Yorker by Joshua Rothman that tackled this issue, and he cited a couple surveys. So, first, in 2014, 538 found that 41% of people asked said reclining is rude.

[B]

Okay, 41.

[A]

But in 2022, a travel site called the Vacationer did a similar survey, and guess what number they found. So this is almost a decade later.

[B]

A decade later. I'm trying to guess if it went up or down. I'm going to say it went up to 53.

[C]

I'm saying it went up, too, because I think legroom has gotten worse.

[A]

77%.

[B]

Holy shit. 77. They got their mind.

[A]

So people are getting more and more against this.

[C]

Welcome to the cause, ladies and gentlemen.

[A]

Now, granted, obviously, these surveys aren't that widespread. There's going to be bias. The people who are going to respond to a survey like this are probably angry travel heads.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's also some percentage people say it's rude, but if people are doing, they do it. So, you know, you might answer in your most noble way, but when push comes to shove and you're crammed in there, you're pressing that button.

[B]

And, yeah, like I said, I recline out of necessity, not because I need to be reclined.

[A]

So let's take a break, and then when we get back, we'll talk to the author of this piece from the New Yorker to find out what's going on behind this war between recliners and upright citizens.

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[F]

What's up? No such thing. I've lost friends over this topic. So we're all given this little bit of space on the airplanes, and when you recline, you. You're taking some of that space away from me. When you do recline and I get up to use the bathroom, I make sure to slam into the back of your seat so that if you were resting, you're now woken up. Hi, it's Claire from this guy sucked. I'm calling because I do have a thought about airplane seat reclining discourse, which is that everybody's fighting the wrong person. The people we should be going after are the airlines who are forcing you to. To make this bad choice trolley problem situation because they have reduced the amount of legroom that you have access to. They want us to fight each other so that we don't fight them. We should also all be thinking about how much it sucks that while we're all fighting in the back over, you know, a few inches of space and getting mad at our fellow passengers, there are on the same plane many people who are just fully laying down because someone is paying for it up front. Usually, you know, the companies that these people are working for, it's easy to get annoyed at other passengers, but ultimately we need to be mad at the real villains in the story, and that is the airline. So it's not us versus us, you guys. It should be us versus them.

[A]

We are back. We're talking about reclining on airplanes. I called up a gentleman who wrote a piece about this.

[D]

My name is Josh Rothman and I'm a staff writer for the New Yorker.

[A]

How did you decide to write about this?

[D]

It's kind of a funny story. I mean, basically I fly like anyone and recently I got flown somewhere for like a conference and they flew me business class. And I had one of those seats that goes all the way back to make a bed. And when I was reclining the seat, I realized that an entire cloud of like, uncertainty and guilt and anxiety had been removed. Like, it was the bliss of being able to just recline without thinking about it. That's when I kind of really realized how much I freak out about reclining in ordinary life where I fly in economy class.

[A]

So one reason for the growing resentment, meaning that increase from, you know, 41% of people disliking it in 2014-2022, up to 77% is what Devin talked about. The amount of legroom is decreasing.

[D]

Legroom has been decreasing in economy class for many decades, starting in the 80s, as I learned. And it's been a gradual decrease. But it's possible that the last few inches have been especially hard to deal with. We're talking a decrease from like 35 inches of legroom on average to like 31 inches of legroom in economy class. And on top of that, checking bags is more expensive. So maybe people put them under the seat in front of them. You know, there's like, air travel has just, I think many people feel, become more arduous and less comfortable, and then people have gotten a little bit wider.

[A]

Joshua cited a study from the Netherlands that shows that seat width actually matters more than seat length for comfort.

[D]

So the group from the Netherlands, what they really show is that seat width matters more than seat length for your overall comfort. And this is true for physical reasons because if you can spread out across, you have to project forward less. It's also just that it matters more for your overall comfort whether your whole body is smushed or whether you can, you know, stretch out a little more. It's like. And there the issue is really that the airlines can make the seats further apart, vertically as it were. They can extend the legroom, they can change that one inch at a time, but they can't just like make the plane wider, in which case you really want to fly on wider planes. And there are some planes, I think the Airbus planes, some of them are wider. And it is interesting that like legroom becomes the anchor for the debate when in fact there's other variables that are just as powerful on your comfort.

[A]

And now a lot of people, you know, we got some voicemails from listeners that kind of say, hey, this is just the airlines being really greedy and trying to just make a quick buck, cram us in there. So how true is that?

[D]

A lot of people assume that this is the airlines being greedy. They're taking away our leg room just out of spite essentially because they can make more money by cramming us in. But I think that's probably too simple a story, you know, like the, the golden age of air travel that everyone remembers or anyway that they're nostalgic for even if they weren't alive for it.

[B]

We really move our tail for you

[D]

to make your every wish come true.

[A]

Welcome to the wide open spaces, Continental's

[D]

wide body DC 10 wide seats, comfortable with lots of legroom. Wide meals, delicious food with a choice of menus, wide smile, happy, courteous service from all our Continental people. You know, tickets were a lot more expensive. Like a lot more expensive. There was more room, but it was really fancy and expensive to fly, even coach.

[A]

I'll break in here. I looked up the prices for flights. This is obviously adjusted for inflation. So this is from Airlines for America via Travel and Leisure magazine. So this is golden age price for a Boston to LA round trip flight in 1941. Guess how much that would cost.

[C]

You take $2,000.

[B]

I'm gonna go up, I'm gonna say $5,000.

[A]

$4,539 and change versus in 2015. Guess what that is from Boston, La.

[B]

I could go coast to coast for like 400. Five hundred?

[A]

Yeah, four hundred and eighty.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

So that's. That's a big difference.

[B]

Yeah, so you're really filtering out the, you know, kind of person who's on a flight back then. It's like that isn't a luxury experience. It's not something you do out of convenience.

[D]

And you booked tickets through travel agents, which meant just having a different relationship to the purchase process. Whereas today, I mean, as you know, the way you buy an airline ticket is often that you go to some website and you punch in the flight and you get like a grid or a list of options and none of them talk about the legroom. So, you know, like it's not visible in your purchase process. That airline A gives you an extra inch and airline B takes it away. Really, all you care about is the cost. And so basically for economy travelers who are budget conscious, they can exert huge price pressure to make airlines compete over who can offer the cheapest seats. And so a way of thinking about what's happening is airlines have responded by unbundling legroom and turning it into something you pay extra for for the people who aren't as price conscious. But in a lot of ways, consumers have benefited from these tinier economy cabins from the perspective of lower prices. And, you know, everything is trade offs. That's a big component of what's, of what's going on. So I kind of want to resist a little the idea that it's just the airlines just sticking it to us. You know, I think we're, we're, we're, we're driving the prices lower and lower through competition.

[A]

You know, how do you feel? Or do you think this guy's just being taken in by big airline?

[B]

Well, it's good to get the extra context about why the prices are going down like that. I do think obviously these airlines, even if it's not necessarily out of spite, but it's just, you know, any company is going to try to exert the most amount of money possible. And one way to do that is to get the most amount of people on a flight possible. And obviously that decreases the average amount of space that we have. But, but it makes sense what he's talking about. That's not the sole reason.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, like I personally would rather pay $500 for a flight, then with less pay twice as much and have five more inches. Like if you redesign the plane so every seat had just a little bit more space, like the, the price it would cost for every seat to actually be really comfortable, I think would be then like, I'm not flying.

[B]

I don't know if it's true. But you hear some airlines considering standing room for, like, way cheaper. And like, in my head I'm like, there's no way I'm going to be standing on a flight. But if they were like, you can get to LA for $20.

[A]

Well, yeah, if it was 100 bucks or something. Yeah, I would consider it. Depending on how it's set up.

[B]

Take off would work, but we'll get there.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I think part of the issue, like you said with now, the. The fact that like, one plane will have so many different experiences and you pay basically for the experience that you want. But you know, someone who flies, you know, a couple times a year, it is annoying to. You get that initial price and you're like, okay, I can fly from here to here for 400 bucks. And you're like, okay, I'm going to have a bag. Yeah, that's going to be more money. I want to be able to pick my seat. That's going to be more money. So all these things just slowly start to add up and then you're like, all right, actually, the price is $600 to me. It's like, let's just start with that price and then let me take things away.

[A]

I wish some. Yeah, I do wish some stuff was bundled in more by default. It's just like at the higher rate.

[C]

It's crazy. It's like the default, obviously. And this is how they get you. The price to get you in the door is the price that you will not pay because that's like the price that they throw you onto the plane, basically. With the luggage. Yeah, you can get, but you gonna be with the luggage. And it's like, if you want any rights on the plane.

[B]

Yeah. You want human rights.

[C]

Human rights are gonna be twice the price. So it's this game of like, you're doing this between all the different airlines of like, you're getting this one price and you're like, all right, but this. I'm actually. I wanna pick my seat. I wanna do this and that. And then it's like, I feel like there just needs. There needs to be more consistency around the pricing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, the premium, you know, the in between. Between first and second broke boy class is. That's what it should be for everybody.

[A]

That should be the big. Yeah, that should be.

[C]

I'm not even saying we should all get first class. I'm not one of those guys, don't come for me saying. And blah, blah, blah, blah.

[A]

I know the first first class.

[C]

Devon first look. And we can't get rid of first class. Cuz the first class people pay for the rest.

[A]

That's what I was thinking because I was trying to do the math out. I was like, okay, let's say everyone had the same thing and we all had the premium. It's like, well if, if five, if even 10 people are paying $10,000 for these flights.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Obviously that does unfortunately subsidize. It's a trickle down economy. It subsidizes.

[C]

Subsidizing for the flying in the back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like. Yeah, it wouldn't really, it probably wouldn't let me do the math out of

[B]

those because they're, you know, most times it's like someone's company is paying.

[A]

That's the whole scam. So here's another thing we already kind of touched upon. What if we were fixed in one position instead? Like how does that work? We already talked about it's more comfortable to be, you know, the width is actually more important, you know, comfort level. Which makes sense. Like yeah, that's, this is why man spreading is such a issue. But why so many people do it. But you know, that makes sense because yeah, when I am in there, especially with my bag in the seat, I'm putting my legs around it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, sometimes I'll go, I'm usually trying to go in the aisle. See. So then I'll try to go like this or something.

[B]

But it's true though, if it were wider you could cross your legs like I am right now.

[A]

You just have more versatility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So here's kind of from an ergonomic perspective, what happens if we were just in a fixed recline instead. Yeah. Where either we take away the choice and we're all more upright or we're all slightly that 3 inch recline.

[B]

Yeah. I'm interested to hear this.

[D]

One of the reasons why the reclining problem is so challenging is because we all have different preferences. So if all of us reclined, we would all have the same amount of space, except for the person who was late in booking and got the last row. And if none of us recline, we will have the same amount of space. But since some of us recline and some of us don't, we create inequality in space. Right. And that's why for many people who do recline, if the person in front of them reclines, they feel licensed to recline. Or if you turn around and you see the person behind you who's already reclined, you might feel more okay about reclining because you know it's about just having equal space with your neighbors. Right. So one solution is to just basically make all the seats, what. What the airlines sometimes call pre, reclined. So they're like a little reclined all at the same angle, and you can't adjust it. And this is like a cool idea. And I've flown in some seats like that, and the seats are often more comfortable in other ways, too. They might be a little wider or they might have a cool, like, bucket shape. You know, there's things they do in seat design. So when I first learned about this, I was like, oh, great, that's the solution. But then I think when you start to learn about ergonomics and what makes people actually comfortable, what you find is first, like, people are innately different. They have different bodies, different spines. They're comfortable at different levels of recline. We want different levels of recline for different things. Like when you're working or eating, you want to be leaned a little more forward, and when you're relaxing or sleeping, you want to be leaned back. And also there's a. An adage that ergonomics people have. Ergonomics is like the study of comfort, basically, which is that the best posture to have is the next posture. So basically, the real way to stay comfortable is just to change how you're sitting over time. On a long plane flight, the most comfortable thing to do would be to sometimes sit up, sometimes recline. So, you know, it's one of these trade offs where I guess if you have the fixed recline seat, it decreases social strife. But, you know, strictly speaking, we're physically less comfortable in those seats.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm trying to think about it on a flight, though, where, like, we're on there for a fixed amount of time. You know, it's not like an office chair where you're going to be there for eight hours, or I guess some

[C]

flights are that long.

[B]

But, you know, just an office chair has different, like, ergonomic adjustments because you have more space in there. If we're going to be on a flight for three hours, for me, I still feel like we want to do equality here, not equity, if that makes sense. So, like, explain. We all have this. The same adjustment.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of you are taller, some of you are fatter, some like. But this is what we're on here together. We come on here as human beings, and we leave as human beings.

[C]

Beautiful.

[B]

And if we start introducing all of these adjustments, everyone's gonna have a bad time.

[C]

All right, so here's My ideal situation. Right. Okay. We get on the plane, the seats are straight up, right?

[A]

Yep.

[C]

For takeoff, we gotta be straight up.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Of course, once we're in the air, the seats recline backwards. Okay. That's where they stay. But you get a button where, if you want, you could put your individual seat forward up but not back. You could only put it back to the preset position.

[B]

So they start.

[C]

They start reclining.

[A]

Everyone's default is reclined.

[B]

So you can make yourself.

[A]

But if you're working, you can go up.

[C]

If you don't like that, you could

[A]

go up, but you can't go back.

[C]

You can't go further back than they already said. During, you know, the meal, everybody's seats go up. When they go up, you cannot put it back during that hour that the food is being, you know, served. After the meal time, they go back into a recline. And then when we land, everybody. Seats go up.

[A]

But you're saying people can still go back to the distant. The defined.

[B]

Yeah, it's just that the default is declined.

[A]

So we. We all go. I understand. We all recline.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, hey, I'm gonna get some work done. I need to lean forward. I need to get into my.

[C]

You can pressure button and move. I go up.

[A]

I can still go back, though.

[C]

Yeah, you can still go back to your preset position. See, I feel like.

[B]

I feel like it'd be the same, though.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like that causes the same issue there. Because then what if 10 minutes later, I'm like, oh, I wanna go back? Then I'm still annoying the person behind me. No, because to me, it's the change that fucks me up.

[C]

I hear what you're saying, but let me say this. The seats are already set so that in your worst. Your furthest back reclining position, there's enough space in an ideal world with the person behind me, and that's the expectation.

[A]

You're basically just saying people should just be able to recline less than they can.

[C]

No, they're reclining. We're reclining in reverse now.

[A]

I know, but I'm saying, like, the amount. I'm talking about the amount of space you would have. Like, let's say right now it's. Let's say it's five inches. You just want it to be like, there's only about three inches.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Of max recline.

[C]

If we're not going to change the amount of legroom. Yeah. There's less max recline. And that's the default.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That's my position.

[B]

Because I'm trying to think of a scenario where it's not automatic, but it's defaulted to its recline. It's in the recline position by default.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you're not. Most people aren't gonna go up.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But many people would go backwards if it started up. If that makes sense. If you started in a recline.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I guess I don't see

[A]

how this really fixes anything if people can still go back and forth.

[C]

It fixes the expectation that you had already. It becomes the idea that. Like the issue we're talking about. Right. So people don't like when people recline. If the default is. You're already reclined. You can't be upset with anybody but the airline.

[A]

Don't you think this points out just how kind of dumb this whole thing is where it's. We have the space.

[C]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Like, it's kind of just like a men. It's totally a mental thing. More than the actual space.

[C]

Yeah. That's where my.

[A]

That's kind of where I.

[C]

That's where my thing kind of fixes is, like, mentally.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We are all. Since we can't do.

[A]

It's interesting that you're able to do this, but then you're still like, people shouldn't recline. Like, you're thinking this through in a way that is coherent.

[B]

I think I see what Devin's saying where it's the idea that you're being inconvenienced.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Well, first we have to lay this out. Do you think most people recline or not?

[C]

If they were.

[B]

If they started in a regular. Regular. No. Started up.

[A]

I think. I think.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I think definitely more people than say it's rude. Recline. Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I think it's. It's more circumstantial.

[B]

So I think fewer people would adjust their seat if we started in a recline.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So then you do. It's not going to fix the problem. Totally.

[C]

No.

[B]

But you'll have fewer instances where someone feels like they're being inconvenienced. If it's just a mental thing. Right. Maybe it's not actually changing all that much. But we feel.

[C]

Yeah. Even if we change. If in my world, if we change none of the other parameters but just the default, like if we're just changing the mechanics of the chair to the button. Brings you up versus bringing you back. Right. That's all I'm changing really, in my scenario is that you're pressing a button to go up versus go Backwards. But they all start back in my climb.

[B]

I can see that it's just a

[A]

matter of claiming the space first or last.

[C]

Exactly. If you get. Because that is the issue. Right. You get on a plane, you sit down, you think you have an expectation. This is the legroom that I have. And then it's taken away from you.

[B]

Because in this scenario, if you wanted to work, for example, like Noah was saying, you are deciding to go in a less comfortable position so that you can work versus how it is today where I'm just minding my own business and then someone smacks the shit out of me when they recline.

[A]

Their so dramatic.

[B]

But when we launch no such thing. Airlines.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Are we jam packing the plane?

[A]

Well, no, because it's only first class.

[B]

The whole airline. Okay. Yeah, the airline is.

[A]

Well, first of all, who do you think we're targeting?

[C]

Are very rich.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is that, you know, aspirational sort of airline.

[B]

This is like the Concorde.

[A]

Yeah. This is beyond.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Concord 2. No problems here.

[C]

Encore 2. No problems. No such thing.

[A]

This leads us well into kind of the arguments for and against and kind of this physical versus psychological quandary.

[B]

Yeah. I'm ready and willing to admit that my issue is like a psychological thing versus.

[A]

And that's real. Mental health is real.

[B]

Okay, thank you. This is a safe space.

[A]

Yeah. Yours in particular and mine is more

[B]

important than the person in front of me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By default.

[D]

The arguments against reclining are legion. I think they boil down to the fact that when you recline, you're taking space away from the person behind you. And it's just. It's analogous to if you're on the subway and your bag is on the seat next to you and it's a crowded train, you should move your bag. Like, this is kind of the strongest anti recline argument. It's just like be courteous and give people the space that they deserve. I think the pro recline arguments mostly come down to noticing how flawed that analogy is. Since in fact, you're not taking space away from the person behind you, they could choose to recline as well. You know, they have the option to do that too. The button is there. I've been sold a seat with the recline button and I should be able to use the recline button. In a way, the most realistic thing to say is that the airlines have sold the space twice. They've sold it once to you and once to the person behind you. And actually, I mean, I guess you could argue they sold it three times. Because they've also sold it to the person in front of you. So that space is up for grabs. And the argument that we shouldn't recline often boils down to the assertion of a social norm, which is like, no one reclines, it's wrong. But actually people don't honor that norm. People disagree about it. You can't just like make up a rule where no rule exists and then get mad because people violate the rule. People say you can't recline if the person behind you is tall, for example. But then people say, but if you're tall, you should be able to recline. There's a lot of, there's a lot of, of confusing ethical stuff around whether you have the right to recline or not. There's also like an aspect that I find really interesting, which is that the, the benefit of reclining to the recliner is physical and the cost to the reclinee is often psychological. So sometimes the reclining actually gets scrunched by the seat. But a lot of times it's just that their, their personal space is getting invaded. And I. There's a term parapersonal space, which is the sort of larger envelope of space around you. It's already very restricted on a plane. But you know, if the person in front's back really hurts and then the person behind is like more stressed because they have less personal space, those are two different kinds of unhappiness that are being traded off against one another. Just to boil it down, like, my feeling is the ethical arguments about reclining mostly fail. In other words, there are no good arguments for or against it on a purely ethical basis, because people are different. And actually this is one of these situations where there are no rules. Like, there just can't be rules. There's a lot of things in life where we wish that there were some basis for having some really clear rule, but actually with reclining, there, there isn't. There isn't a basis for those really clear rules. It's just, it's just moral chaos, period.

[B]

But I think that. And that ends up being. And I'm biased, but I think what he's talking about, that it's difficult because everyone has preferences, ends up being an anti reclining argument.

[A]

Why? What if I'm tall and need. And need it to feel better?

[B]

Drive to the city, drive across the ocean. Like, don't you see though, that I get it.

[A]

But like you're, you're picking someone in your head still.

[B]

Like, yeah, but how many people. Like the number of people who are that Tall versus.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm uncomfortable and I'm not tall.

[B]

Yeah, but you're not uncomfortable because of a reclining seat.

[A]

You're. But I would be arguably more comfortable if no one reclined in front of me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I'm less. I'm less comfortable. Quote, unquote.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, but who's. Who's the person who gets to decide, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

That.

[B]

No one.

[A]

And like, if there's three tall guys,

[B]

if there's gonna be all this variety.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then the most egalitarian thing to do would be to take away the decision.

[A]

It's kind of fascist. Well, don't you think?

[B]

Trump 2.0.

[A]

Yeah. That's why those numbers are going up.

[D]

Think about our society.

[B]

Because. Yeah. I don't know, it's like.

[A]

So we just need less choice.

[F]

I know.

[B]

We don't have a. Circumstances. I don't like it either. I would love to be real. I would love to stretch out.

[D]

We all do.

[A]

That's the problem is everyone wants it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's lay down and not pay the price.

[B]

Or. Yeah, we could. You know what? No, you're right. We could do the other version of this. You don't get a choice, but you don't need a choice because there's enough room. So let's. Let's delete four hours off of the flight and then.

[A]

Yeah, and then Pay, you know, $1,000 more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Each. Now we're in this world, so we're just going a little bit more into kind of like the model behind the reasonings for this. And we're going to hear about a term called social licensing.

[D]

Like a good scientist, I tried to make this into sort of a more tractable research project for myself. And one of the things I tried to do was make a model of what happens when people recline. It's helpful, maybe. Imagine the biggest economy class cabin is a 50 row cabin, roughly. Let's imagine that the person at the bulkhead seat in the front of the cabin reclines. So what happens? So my theory that I developed is that if the first person reclines, the second person, there's a chance that they're absolutely against reclining. They simply won't recline even though the person in front of them has reclined. Recline into them. But there's also a chance that they're on the fence or they're like a. Somewhat. A somewhat guilty recliner. And there's a phenomenon called social licensing which psychologists talk about, which is basically it boils down to when you see someone else doing something that you want to do but aren't doing, you're more inclined to just finally do it. So you can imagine, let's say the first person reclines by 100%. The person behind them might recline by 80%. You know, they feel it's okay to recline, but they're like, maybe they feel a little guilty about it. And you could imagine that the person behind them would then recline maybe, like, a little bit less, until eventually the wave breaks against a really principled anti recliner. Or maybe it just peters out, you know, and then another person reclines fully. And so we get a structure in the cabin of, like, waves of reclination that happen as people who are unrepentant recliners decide to lean back. And I think this is anecdotally just like how it looks to me while walking down the aisle on the plane. You know what I mean? So social licensing means that, you know those statistics that show that 70% of people are, like, reclining as rude? That number might go down if the person in front of them reclines. So that's kind of like how I think it's plausible to imagine the actual flow of reclining happens.

[A]

So, yeah, that sounds right. As far as, like, the social licensing where you see that all the time with things where it's like people skipping in a line or something like that. Like, just out in the world where

[B]

it's like, well, yeah, they can't stop.

[A]

What am I gonna do? Be a dope? Just, like, lose out or whatever?

[C]

Let everybody get in front of me?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I was trying. When I was listening to that, I was trying to decide which version, which character I was in that scenario. Like, am I the guilty? I think I'm more like, I have to do it because I need more space when the person in front of me does it.

[D]

And then there's this other question, which is like, how do you feel about someone reclining in front of you? So there's a philosopher named P F Strawson, and he made this distinction. It's a very common sense distinction with slightly complicated sounding names. But he said, basically, when someone does something that is injurious to you, that causes you harm, that you might resent, you can have a reactive attitude, or you can have an objective attitude. A reactive attitude is like, you feel angry, you feel resentful, you feel you're blaming them. An objective attitude is more like they couldn't help it. Suppose you're standing at the crosswalk and a Pedestrian next to you, steps on your foot.

[C]

Right.

[D]

You could say he didn't mean to do it or he was careless. Those are sort of like ways of treating him like he's still the same person that did the thing. Like you're reacting to him as a person. Or you could be he's drunk or you could be like he's, he's crazy. Right. Or he's having a seizure or something. Those are basically ways of saying that the person who did this thing to you isn't the same person. Like if you were to meet him under different circumstances, he wouldn't be, wouldn't do this to you. You know, it's like, it's really like at this moment he's not himself. Right. Almost like he's hypnotized. So this is reactive attitude is about sort of reacting to this person as, as, as a person. And the objective attitude is seeing them more like an object. It's a little bit different than it sounds in his terminology. I think the simplest way to grasp it is there's a really big difference between he did it by accident and he's drunk. Yeah, right. He did it by accident. It's like that's the same guy. He's drunk. It's like in the morning he's going to be feel really bad about what he did. Right. I think when you look at stories, the news stories are full of people who get into hilariously over the top altercations about seat reclining that have to, you know, like the plane has to be diverted because of this. Often I think it's the case that afterwards they're like on the ground, when they're not on the plane, they're really pretty different. They wouldn't do that. That's something about the heightened atmosphere of the plane, as it were, deranges us. And that's part of the reason why this seat reclining thing is such a over the top flashpoint.

[B]

You know, it's so funny because I feel like I'm objective. I have objective reactions. Not on a flight, like if someone bumps into me on the street or even if someone like hits me, like if I got like a fender bender.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I'm just like, whatever. Like they took their eyes off the road for a second, like it's not a bad person. But on a flight, for whatever reason I had, I'm a different person. Air pressure, honestly, I'm just like, yeah. Do you have literally no consideration for the people around you like that? I just turn into that person and it's really funny.

[A]

And everyone is.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

I think that's a funny thing. It's like we just. Everyone.

[B]

Animals.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I do think it's a lack of control or something.

[F]

And.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

We're not trying to just grasp whatever small things you can do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Which could be argued for both sides of this argument.

[B]

Yeah. I think I'm the reactive person on a flight where I'm like, oh, man, they knew this would inconvenience me and they didn't give a fuck.

[A]

Speaking of those stories of, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Outrageous things, have you guys heard of a knee defender? We're going to tell a little story about this.

[B]

That's incredible.

[A]

So it's a little. This is like a little plastic device. This caused a pretty big issue on a flight.

[D]

Basically, the short version is there's a businessman. He's flying back from the last leg of a really long trip. He's flown from Moscow to Newark, and then from Newark, he's going to Denver. And he has this gizmo. It's called a knee defender, and it's a thing you can buy, and it prevents the person in front of you from reclining into you. And he bought it and uses it because he's using his laptop on the tray, Right. And the woman in front of him is trying to lean back and she can't. And he hasn't revealed what he. What he did. He hasn't said, excuse me, ma', am, I installed a device that prevents you from reclining. He's just, like, letting her think that her seat is broken. She flags down the flight attendant. The flight attendant reveals what's actually been going on. And basically he's forced to remove the knee defender. So you'd think, there the story ends. But then she becomes a vengeful recliner. And she reclines the seat, like, very forcefully in one big go. Which I think even if you think reclining is okay, is an obvious. No, no. It almost breaks his computer. He pushes her seat forward again, which is also not cool. Installs the knee defender again, yells at her, and she stands up and throws her Sprite in his face. And then the flight has to be diverted to Chicago. And my favorite aspect of the story is that after the AP broke the news of this altercation, it started a nationwide debate about reclining, which then led to further confrontations on other planes, so that two other flights had to be diverted in the days after this initial dust up. It's such a classic example of how these things get out of control. But then, you know, when. When the reporter interviews the man with the knee defender, afterwards, he's just like, I'm really sorry about how I acted, and I'm really ashamed, and it's not how I should have handled it. And it's just like the pressure cooker situation of the plane makes, like, 2 inches feel like life or death and also makes you feel like this decision the person is making is actually indicative of, like, who they are as a person, which it's definitely not. It's not. It doesn't reveal that much about whether we're good or bad people, whether we choose to recline our seats or not.

[A]

I thought that was a crazy story, but, you know, I could see it happening.

[B]

Yeah. It is pretty much the prisoner's dilemma. Do you guys know what that is? It's like, it's what happens at the end of the dark night where, like, basically, two people, it's in their best interest to work together, but they just can't do it. And so I feel like the. On these flights, like, you could just cooperate and not get your flight diverted, but you just can't because you're so angry and stubborn in the moment.

[C]

Mm.

[A]

Yeah, I think I. You know, as I get older, I try to give grace.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, get everyone to take what they need. You know, I give away my space. I'm. I'm reclining people, you know, for them.

[B]

Like, please, sir, push their seat.

[A]

Yeah, Enjoy. Yeah, I'm pulling it back.

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

You want to recline?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Relax.

[A]

Here, let me hold your bag, sir.

[C]

Stewardess, this man is forcing me to recline.

[A]

I'm just grabbing from on.

[B]

I don't want to sit back.

[A]

I'm trying to work. And then just one other note on this. There's a study from China that Josh mentioned with more detail on kind of also how we react.

[D]

A huge determinant of how unhappy you are when someone reclines on you is who they are. So that if you're a man and a woman reclines onto you, or if you're a woman and a man reclines into your space, you're especially uncomfortable if your family member reclines into your space. Like, if you know that person, you just, like, it's a lot more.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, one thing, you know, on some of these voicemails, we got a lot of people come in, people being like, you're evil. I think someone said, like, you're a. You're a trash human if you recline. You wouldn't say that about your mom. Right, right. If she's reclining. Yeah. Would you?

[B]

No, absolutely not. In fact, I would force my mom to recline if she was sitting in front of me.

[A]

So pretend everyone is your mom. You know, let's take a break, and then when we come back, we'll conclude with our final feelings on the recline question. All right, we are back. I'm Manny, Noah, Devin. We've been discussing reclining on flights. Is it okay? Does it make you evil? Should we have the option to even do it?

[B]

Should Noah, Manny, and Devin start an airline?

[A]

The answer is yes to that, for sure. Regardless of the outcome of this. So we just heard from Joshua Rothman from the New Yorker, who wrote a great piece about this kind of going into the, you know, physical and psychological impacts. After hearing all that, how do you feel?

[C]

I feel maybe the same as I did when I started. I think for me, my personal feelings on the matter, I understand, do not dictate how everybody else operates in this world. So the fact that I don't recline, I think people shouldn't recline. I understand that I'm only me, and the person in front of me may not have my same beliefs, so they may recline onto me. Is it annoying? Yes. Does that make them a bad person? Depends.

[A]

You don't know what's in their heart.

[C]

I think so much of this is about how you go about these things and not necessarily what you're doing. Like Manny said, the person reclining on his seat just. No, like, not looking behind them, almost. Be considerate if you recline in a small, you know, a slow. You're considerate. Oh, you have your. You know, you have your tray out. Sorry. Okay. It's fine. You know, I'm not happy that you did it, but we're all people here. Let's be considerate of one another. Even if you are going to recline. So there. There is a way, I think if you're going to recline, do it respectfully. Be aware of if the person behind you has something up. Hey, you can still recline. Just say, hey, just a heads up. I know you got your laptop out and now you're using a tray. I'm about to recline a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Hey, they can't protest it. Whatever. They want to fight you on it. I'm not saying you got to listen to them on that, but you can only control what you can do. So be respectful. Tell them, hey, I'm going to recline. Or if you do it and you accidentally hit somebody, sorry, that's it just be. Just. Just have some manners around it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair. And I feel the same way, too. I think, you know, I think I'm still a little more fascist than you guys about this in the sense that I think our lives would be better probably a little bit if we didn't have the choice.

[C]

Just turn it off.

[B]

Just turn it off.

[A]

So you want everyone to be a little bit more uncomfortable. I don't think that's better for the greater.

[C]

Equally. Yeah, not equally, I guess, but equally. No one. Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's the problem, I guess.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think we wouldn't be talking about this.

[C]

No choices.

[A]

Take away from.

[B]

It would be. It wouldn't be. We wouldn't be inconvenienced because we'd be all starting from the same level of inconvenience. And, And. And we clearly can't act right about this. Yeah, we're diverting flights.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

Like, we. We don't have. We. We can't handle it.

[A]

And that was back in, you know, that. That story is from 2014, back in the 40% era, you know, now that.

[B]

Who knows what happened if a toddler's act. Take the toy away until they get their. Their mind right.

[C]

Yeah, true.

[B]

Introduce reclining after we.

[A]

I think, honestly, I think that's just going to get us closer to standing room only. Like, that just going to be like, all right, we're packing people in and like, in, like cages, like small cages. Like, you're going to have to, like, hand, like arms around your knees. Yeah.

[C]

Lay on top of each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they're going to be like, hey, we tried to give you seats and now look what you did.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

This is.

[B]

I feel like. I think, you know, I think part of me is like, yeah, I think we don't. We shouldn't have the choice because we can't handle it. The other part of me is also thinking this is probably the best it's gonna get.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what we have.

[A]

That's kind of why I've landed where I'm like, it's a mental game and try to just find some, you know, nirvana in your head when you're. When you're on the flight.

[B]

And basically what Devin's saying, if everyone is a little bit more considerate about the way that they're going about reclining, you know, I'm on a flight from New York to Columbus. It's 90 minutes total, including taxiing. We're probably in the air for 50 something minutes. Why are you destroying my laptop? Do you need to lay down on this short ass flight? Let me get to scoliosis maybe think about that.

[C]

Have you considered they might have scoliosis?

[A]

You know, next time pretend they have scoliosis or say do you have a doctor's note? No Such Thing is a production of Kaleidoscope Content executive produced by Mangesh Hatikadur. The show is created by Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. Theme and credits Song by Manny Mixing by Steve Bone thanks to our guest this week, Josh Rothman from the New York Worker, and special thanks to all the thingers who sent in voice notes. We're sorry to all those who couldn't make it to the episode, but we loved hearing from you. Subscribe to our newsletter at www.nosuchthing.show and if you have feedback for us or a question, our email is maninoadevanmail.com or you can leave us a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. Thanks and we'll be back soon.

[D]

Bye. Such Thing.

[E]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.