Super-Agers: Why do some old people age better than others?

Summary

NO SUCH THING Podcast
Episode: "Super-Agers: Why do some old people age better than others?"
Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Manny, Noah, and Devan dive into the mystery of why some elderly people – so-called "super agers" – seem to age cognitively much better than others. Through their trademark research-driven approach, they connect with Dr. Changiz Gheula, an author of a groundbreaking Northwestern University study on super agers, and interview Ralph Rehbach, a 91-year-old confirmed super ager. The hosts unpack the science behind super aging, share personal stories, and explore how lifestyle, genetics, and social factors may play a role in healthy cognitive aging.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Question: Why Do Some Elders Age So Well? (02:44–08:25)

• Hosts share personal anecdotes about relatives who are remarkably sharp in their 80s or 90s, contrasting those experiences with more “typical” examples of cognitive decline.

  • Devan talks about his great uncle: “He's still very much with it, like very fit...he's always stayed active.” (03:55)
  • Noah shares about his own 90-something-year-old uncle: “He's driving. He goes to the golf club. People are coming up talking to him. He's talking back in full sentences, laughing. He's telling stories from his past.” (04:49)

• The group notes how striking it is to see someone in their late 80s who is active, witty, and independent.

• Raising the key question: What is the difference between these "super agers" and typical elderly people?

2. Examples of Super Agers in Pop Culture (08:25–16:45)

• Maury Povich (now 87) is used as a prime example of a super ager—alert, witty, and animated in conversation.
• The hosts compare public figures of similar ages such as Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, and Anthony Fauci, pondering why some seem sharper than others and if staying engaged in vibrant professional or social environments helps.
• Notable quote (on comparing Biden and Trump):
  • “Trump is also still… she's 49-year-olds. He's like, fine. But still showing signs of...I think a lot of it is the timbre of one’s voice. Like the speed with which they're saying something, but also just like the sound of it.” —Noah (12:06)

3. The Science of Super Aging: Dr. Changiz Gheula Interview (23:50–44:29)

• Dr. Gheula explains Northwestern University’s ongoing research on super agers:

  • Defined as individuals 80+ whose memory matches or exceeds that of people 20–30 years younger.
  • Memory in super agers is quantitatively superior, often demonstrated through episodic memory tests (like recalling 15 words after 20 minutes), whereas typical 80-year-olds recall about 5–6.

• Notable quote:

  • “Super agers… are 80 years or older, but their memory capacity is equal to or often much better than individuals who are 20, 30 years younger.” —Dr. Gheula (24:57)

• Discussion of how neuron creation in the hippocampus differs in super agers compared to regular agers, and how brain shrinkage is minimal or even absent in super agers.

• Testing memory live: The hosts attempt the word recall challenge used in super ager studies for comedic (and humbling) effect. (33:01)

• Notable moment (on public perception vs. scientific measure):

  • “Many think, or many families think that an individual is a superager…and then when we test, we see that… only 1% or 2%—at most 10%—really fit our definition.” —Dr. Gheula (30:34)

• Benefits beyond memory:

  • Super agers are more resilient to Alzheimer's pathology. Having some Alzheimer’s markers is near-universal in older adults, but super agers function normally despite this.
  • Notable quote: “Normal individuals invariably have some Alzheimer’s pathology. But… there are some super agers whose brain is just like normal individuals… [and] are resilient to the results of Alzheimer’s pathology.” —Dr. Gheula (37:54)

4. What Makes a Super Ager? Genetics, Lifestyle, and Living Well (44:29–47:27)

• Dr. Gheula shares key factors identified among super agers:
  • Large and strong social networks:
    “Particularly in super agers, we have found that their social networks are much larger than normal individuals.” —Dr. Gheula (41:23)
  • Physical health: A healthy body (heart, oxygenation, glucose regulation) is crucial; diseases like heart disease and diabetes are risk factors for dementia.
  • Mental engagement: Continual mental activity—intellectual pursuits, reading, problem-solving, volunteering.
    • “Super agers continue to do things up to the very time they die. They're mentally continuously active.” —Dr. Gheula (43:44)
• Hosts reflect on their own social circles and brainstorm ways to “super age,” including the need to keep challenging oneself, maintain relationships, and stay active (both physically and mentally).

5. Living Like a Super Ager: Ralph Rehbach’s Story (48:34–53:45)

• The show closes with a firsthand account from Ralph Rehbach, age 91, a confirmed super ager:
  • Describes his active, organized daily routine, still drives, does puzzles, and maintains a busy calendar.
  • Shares his experience fleeing Nazi Germany and how telling his story as a Holocaust survivor in public forums has given him continual purpose.
    • “After our Illinois Holocaust Museum was founded, I started telling my story. And that keeps me going.” —Ralph (52:27)
  • His advice on super aging:
    • “First of all, do the right things. Be healthy in what one eats, be healthy in what one does, get involved in activities that are meaningful... Family relationships are another thing... Any or all of those things that I mentioned, if you and others like you decide to do, you’ll get there as well.” (52:34)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• Devan: “They're going to have the news team coming over to my gym, watching me lift 10 pound weights, being like, this is incredible.” (03:31)
• Manny on Maury Povich: “I was shocked...he was being playful with all of his employees. He's funny, witty...‘I'm 80 years old.’ I was kind of shocked by that.” (08:39)
• Dr. Gheula: “During normal aging, all of us are losing cognition after age 30. To a certain extent, it’s normal because everybody does it, right? But these [super agers] have preserved it.” (24:57)
• Manny on recall test: “Super agers are often getting all 15 words, even the second time, after 20 minutes had passed.” (34:08)
• Dr. Gheula: “Having a very strong social network, social connections, is good...We also know that isolation in older individuals is bad…it can actually lead to dementia.” (41:23)
• Ralph Rehbach: “Any or all of those things that I mentioned, if you and others like you decide to do, you’ll get there as well.” (53:45)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Opening and personal stories: (02:44–08:25)
• Maury & pop culture examples: (08:25–16:45)
• Expert interview: Dr. Changiz Gheula: (23:50–44:29)
• Memory test demonstration: (33:01–34:08)
• Factors behind super aging: (44:29–47:27)
• Super ager interview (Ralph Rehbach): (48:34–53:45)

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Takeaways

• Super agers are rare, but science is increasingly understanding what makes them different—biologically and behaviorally.
• Genetics may play a role, but lifestyle factors—especially strong social connections, continual mental engagement, and maintaining physical health—are crucial.
• Even among super agers, aging is inevitable, but resilience to cognitive decline is possible.

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For more information on super agers and the Northwestern study, visit the links in the show notes or www.nosuchthing.show.

Transcript

[A]

I'm Manny.

[B]

I'm Noah.

[C]

This is Devin.

[A]

And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research on today's episode. Why do some elderly people seem to age way better than other elderly people? We'll talk to one of the authors of a groundbreaking news study on so called super agers. And then we'll actually talk to one of them. There's no. No such thing.

[D]

No such thing. No such thing.

[E]

This is an I Heart podcast Guaranteed

[F]

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[G]

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[D]

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[A]

AT&T business Wireless Connecting changes everything. All right, fellas, I want to start this episode with a question. An intimate question for the boys. Oh, where do you see yourselves at 80 years old? What's going on in your life? And more importantly, how Lucid do you think you'll be? How sharp do you think you'll still be?

[I]

It's a sad one.

[A]

Who's going first? You can think about it. So you can think, Paint a picture for us.

[C]

Yeah, I'm going to be very lucid at age 80.

[A]

And what makes you say that?

[C]

You know, I'm doing the work, you know, across the river. I'm going to still be doing peloton at age 80. You know, the instructors are going to be in their 90s.

[B]

You're on your RBG.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. They're going to be. They're going to have the news team coming over to my gym, watching me lift 10 pound weights, being like, this is incredible.

[B]

80 year old podcaster still doing it.

[C]

No, I want to be an 80 year old who's not working.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But active.

[A]

Yeah. Not employed, but, you know, working your brain out. Yeah, still reading.

[B]

You're still.

[C]

Exactly. Going to the gym, still doing like. I have a great uncle, he's in his 80s and yeah, he's still very much with it, like very fit. He still like, you know, travels by himself and lives alone, but it's because he's always stayed active. He's always been going to the gym, he's always doing stuff, he's always running around, always using his mom. So that is the life I envisioned for myself. Obviously we cannot predict the future.

[A]

And how about, you know, I mean,

[B]

of course I would like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, what do I see? I don't know, but maybe I won't even have the wherewithal to be sad about it.

[C]

Damn.

[B]

I mean, let's be honest, look at the statistics. I mean, you know, I'm thinking about my family. I could see both sides. I mean, I was out in California early this year with my 90 something year old uncle. Wow.

[A]

Oh, and he was. How's he doing?

[C]

Great.

[B]

He's driving.

[A]

What?

[B]

He goes to the golf club. People are coming up talking to him. He's talking back in full sentences, laughing. He's telling stories from his past.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Seems to mostly know who people are.

[A]

That's a great line.

[C]

90s, wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how old do you think people think your uncle is without knowing?

[B]

Voice sounds pretty good. I think speed of speech is pretty strong. Fair, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

About average for that.

[B]

Yeah. So I would say low 80s, I think. So I'd say yeah, maybe shave off 70s.

[C]

Low 80s.

[A]

Okay. Devin, you're a great uncle. I mean, if I spoke to him on the phone, you know, how old do you think I think he is

[C]

when I talk to him. Yeah, he's very much with it. Like, you know, he hasn't changed. Like, you know, it's the sort of thing where he's obviously like my great uncle. So he's like a grandparent age. So the whole time I've known him, in my mind he's been quote unquote old. Right. And he doesn't feel that much older now when I see and talk to him than he did, you know, 20 years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

At least in my mind it's not like, oh God, you see Uncle Willie, he used to be like, really?

[B]

Wow, Last Thanksgiving he was so different.

[C]

Yeah, like he used to really, like when I. They had a big thing for his 80th birthday and like, you know, he like gave me a hug, almost like knocked me out a little bit. You know, he's still like, he's got that strength.

[B]

You know when they are going to be on the peloton.

[C]

Oh yeah, exactly.

[A]

Hopefully it runs in the family, the youthfulness of the older members of your family. I think like, you guys have had a slightly different experience than me. Like I know some 80 plus year olds just through family friends who are really kind of slow and. And I'm always fascinated when I do see people who are 80 plus but just all they're completely still witty, sharp, good memories, like telling stories from their past in a, you know, like in a clear. In a clear way.

[C]

Well, to be fair, there are those people in my life too who are not with it and not very mobile and don't seem youthful. I just wouldn't bring them up in this conversation because that's kind of seen as like the norm, at least in my mind. Just like, you're old, that's what old people do.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So like it doesn't stand out as like a thing to talk about.

[A]

Yeah. Like if someone passed away in their mid to late 70s, for example, that wouldn't be so abnormal. It'd be like, okay, it's sad life.

[C]

Yeah, of course it's horrible. But yeah, it's, you know, you. I always start to do this thing in my head, sadly, when people die, just sort of like best case scenario, how much longer could they have lived? And I'm like, okay, yeah, once you get to late 70s, it's like, oh, if you would've lived five, six more years, that's about the amount of time

[B]

then you wouldn't have seen the story and been like, whoa.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, once you get late 70s, early 80s, it's like it's kind of an expected time for someone in the past.

[A]

Well, for the purposes of this episode, I'm super interested in figuring out what exactly differentiates the 80 plus year olds we just were talking about. And, you know, people like Noah's uncle and your great uncle, who just seem to be a little bit more advanced for their age, cognitively not advanced age, obviously. And I've been fascinated by this for years now, ever since Noah And I in 2018 went up to Connecticut and interviewed Mr. Maury Povich from the Maury show, the Goat.

[J]

I don't have any thoughts of retiring. I like to do it. I think we do some good. I think we bring families together. I know one thing, that when I leave this show, you won't see me on television ever again.

[A]

Now, when we interviewed him, that was in 2018, I was shocked at the end of the interview because, like, we spent the whole day with him. He was, you know, running around playing with his dog. He's being playful with, like, all of his employees. He's funny, witty. And then at the end of the day, he made this, like, passing comment like, you know, I'm 80 years old and like, this is still. And I was like, 80 years old. I was kind of shocked by that. Now, that was years ago. Today, Maury is 87. And I just want to play a clip from his new podcast here to just exemplify how sharp the guy is. So this is Maury telling a story to Kathy Griffin.

[C]

Current day.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Current day. My two faves, three months ago. So he was 87 when this was recorded.

[J]

You know, Jimmy and I have kind of crossed paths. I'll tell you how when his wife was pregnant, he and Matt Damon go through their numbers all the time.

[E]

Right?

[H]

Very funny.

[J]

So he wanted me to come out because he had this skit where Damon was going to claim that he was the father of the kid. And I can't. I don't know if I got sick, but I was going to do it, but I couldn't do it.

[H]

What?

[J]

So I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. So they did the skit. Damon is there, Jimmy is there, and they have Martin Short playing me.

[K]

That is genius.

[H]

See, that's why you're a legend.

[A]

So, you know, it's not that he's, like, doing advanced calculus. You know, he's not doing anything, like, insanely impressive, but I do think it's striking that, you know, he's able to recall the story from probably decades ago. Tell the story In a clear and concise way. He's being, you know, he's. He's laughing about it to me. I'm like, okay, 87 years old at least. Certainly when I was growing up, I would have been like, oh, this is someone who's in a home, who is. He can barely talk. And I don't know, I just thought, like, how is this possible?

[C]

It's funny because the frame of reference that I have when you played that, I was going through my head of like, okay, I was thinking of two. Two people. Former president Joseph Biden.

[B]

Familiar.

[C]

And I was trying to think about

[A]

he might still be the president.

[C]

In his head, I was thinking about, okay, how would he tell that story? It would take a couple minutes longer.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All the pieces might not be there. Maybe some wrong names.

[A]

And that's a good point. Let me see how old Biden is right now.

[C]

Biden's 84.

[A]

83. He's 83.

[C]

4.

[A]

4 years earlier than Maury.

[C]

And then I thought of somebody else. Donald Trump, my president. Current president.

[A]

Current, former.

[C]

What is he, 80?

[B]

He just turned 80, I think.

[A]

Really? I don't think 80 yet. Let's see, 79.

[C]

Donald Trump.

[A]

He's 79.

[C]

79.

[A]

About to turn 80 in June. June.

[B]

June.

[C]

Oh, yeah. 250th. You know, flag Day.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think about how he would have that conversation.

[A]

Oh, God, yeah.

[C]

Definitely more of a tangent.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You. A little bit more of like, how did this start?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Maybe, you know, a little more oomph in his voice than Joseph.

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting because there was a lot of discourse about how much sharper Trump is to Biden, but I think that was largely because it was relative to Biden.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Trump is also still. She's 49 year olds. He's like, fine. But still showing signs of. I think.

[B]

I think a lot of it is the timber of one's voice. Like the speed with which they're saying something, but also just like the sound of it. Like, if I didn't see Maury and just heard that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You really wouldn't think anything of it. Yeah. Age wise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Versus Biden's like, just like a frailer sounding voice. And then Trump is in the middle between them. Even though Trump is still rambling and doing, of course, the weave.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And incoherent in other ways. But he doesn't sound all that different than 10 years ago. Just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As far as the quality of his

[A]

voice, who are some other kind of old. Old folks. Maybe 80 plus or at least getting there. Who we feel like are just still sharp and witty. Yeah.

[B]

Like, to be able to go up and talk like that somewhat. I mean, what's. He talks about the same things for 50 years or whatever. So that probably helps. Yeah, I guess with a lot of these people, too. I think, like, that's what's interesting about the Biden example, where it's like, he's obviously been public speaking for so long. Like, when Maury was playing, I was like, okay, well, like, it's probably, you know, one of my theories is like, okay, he still is working. Obviously, he has an active lifestyle where he's talking to people and interacting and doing, you know, he's being stimulated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And talking. So I'm sure that helps just, like, keep those muscles moving, like, muscles in the broadest sense, motor skills, you know. But then it's like, well, Biden and Biden and Trump or whoever. Any politician obviously is hopefully in a lot of meetings and talking to people, like, all the time and getting all this information. So it just shows there's some element that you probably can't control.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, my kind of hypothesis about Bernie, I do think if you are so, like, passionate about, you know, some area of politics or anything, really, that's probably going to drive you to go a little bit further than your peers. I think Biden obviously much older seeming than everyone else. He had the unlucky, like, very public malfunctioning that we saw, and that's probably coloring our perception a little bit because I remember all of his staffers coming out and being like, we know that this looked really bad, but trust me, like, we talk to him every day and it's fine. That's obviously really hard to sell to the public after watching that debate.

[C]

But I also think Biden's issue is the stutter.

[B]

Well, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And obviously I think for a while he had a better handle of it, and I think it's gotten worse as he's gotten older. So I think that's definitely a piece of it. Yeah, that's part of it. Because a lot of what we're talking about is just like, talking, Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Biden was riding a bike and stuff. Trump plays golf. But I would think that Biden is more athletic than Trump is just as someone who does not actually see these people moving outside of. In the public eye. So, yeah, you hear about older people who retire who kind of deteriorate afterwards because they're kind of alone, they're isolated. They don't have sort of like a thing that they are driving to do every day. But I also feel like it could go in the other direction. Right. Like, obviously, being president is a very taxing job. It's an extreme. Yeah, we're hearing about it. You know, Biden, they were talking about he had a bedtime that he couldn't do events after a certain time. And even with Trump there, you know, there's some conversations about, like, he doesn't have the stamina that he had before.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I do wonder, too, with some of these older politicians if the job, you know, if maybe they're doing a bit too much and what effect that can have on somebody's body. There's probably a nice area where you have a little bit of purpose and you're still doing stuff, but you're obviously not as active as you were when you were 50.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think we've all seen the famous before and after photo of Obama before his two terms and just how he looked like he ages, like 25 years.

[C]

Have you seen Obama recently? He looks real good now.

[A]

Yeah, he left off.

[C]

Yeah. He's Asian backwards now.

[B]

You're just a Netflix producer, treats you

[C]

well, looks and good.

[A]

My next example is he's not really a politician, although he's been having to dip into it recently, is Anthony Fauci.

[B]

Oh, he's a politician.

[A]

He's got. He's 80. Let's see.

[C]

Because my man, he had to do a lot of hits on tv, and he's not, you know, especially during the

[B]

time that'll stress you out.

[C]

Imagine you have to go up there and give guidance, and your boss is telling people the complete opposite of what you're saying. And you have to be up there and be kind of clear and concise. How old is Fauci?

[A]

He is 85.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Just in case you don't know, during the Trump administration, Anthony Fauci was the chief medical advisor to the president during

[C]

the Biden administration, too, wasn't it?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. But prior to that, he was the director of the National Institute of Allergy and infectious diseases from 1984 to 2022.

[C]

Yeah, he was around for a while. He was around during the AIDS crisis.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He's been in public health for a while.

[A]

So he's 85 or he's 84 years old from the clip that I'm about to play. But just to set it up, there's a Republican who's confronting him about. According to her, he tried to downplay the lab leak theory and dismiss it as a conspiracy Theory. And this is her question to him.

[K]

I just want to clarify for the record, cuz today you testified that you did not suppress the lab leak theory. Yet in the past you have said, quote, unquote, it is a distortion of reality, unquote, you've said, quote, I've heard these conspiracy theories and like all conspiracy theories, they're just conspiracy theories. That's what you told the American people. And so would you like to clarify what science were you following then versus

[L]

yeah, no, I actually, I've also been very, very clear and said multiple times that I don't think the concept of there being a lab leak is inherently a conspiracy theory. What is conspiracy is the kind of distortions of that particular subject. Like it was a lab leak and I was parachuted into the CIA like Jason Bourne and told the CIA that they should really not be talking about a lab leak.

[K]

Thank you.

[L]

That's the conspiracy.

[K]

Appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah, so he's 84 when that clip was recorded. And you know, obviously he's able to combat like a flawed premise. He's joking about it as well at the same time.

[C]

Yeah, bringing in Jason Bourne.

[A]

Yeah, Some pop culture references and I

[C]

just, I don't know, in a newer pop culture reference, you know, he didn't say some old shit.

[B]

He didn't say Chuck Schumer style.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

What is this, some like newspaper cartoon from the 20s? He's like, oh, you know, like Pogo used to say.

[A]

So. Yeah, I want to figure out like what it is exactly that differentiates the Fauci's the more from the Bidens and from other people we know in our lives who are 80 plus and are, you know, not nearly as cognitively quick. So it turns out, guys, that there is a new groundbreaking study that actually does dive into the differences between some of these octogenarians who are all there, sharp, witty, ready to go, and some of the ones who are just aging regularly or, you know, maybe slower than regular.

[C]

What term you just used there?

[A]

Octogenarians. It means people who part octopus

[C]

individuals. The octomom. Yeah, people in their 80s. Octogenarians.

[A]

But before we get into that study, got a pop quiz.

[B]

Oh, here we go.

[A]

Noah, I'm about to give you 10 words and I just want you to simply say them back to me after I'm done reading them.

[C]

This is the Trump IQ quiz. He always talks about elephant, dog, horse.

[B]

Hold on, don't. Don't add words to my brain right now.

[A]

This is a test they use to determine the memory capabilities of anyone, really, but mostly People in their, you know, in their advanced age. It's called the raise. Auditory verbal learning task.

[C]

Okay, so he needs to say, I just spin in the same order?

[A]

No, not in the same order. I just need to get them back. Oh, that's used correctly.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

All right. Ring. Cloud. Building. Coffee. Notebook. Brick, Sand, Tissue. Chair. Jeans.

[B]

Ring, Coffee. Notebook. Building, jeans. Coffee. I already said that.

[A]

Say coffee.

[B]

I'm done now.

[A]

All right, you got five nervous. This will come into play later in the episode, but no, we got five out of the 10. After the break, we're gonna dive into this study to see what differentiates 80 year olds who are sharp, witty, and put together and the ones who are,

[H]

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[A]

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[E]

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called hey Jonas.

[B]

We invented a podcast.

[E]

Well, we didn't invent it.

[C]

We.

[E]

We just contributed to it.

[A]

First people to do podcasts.

[E]

Pretty. Yeah, pretty. Wide range of podcasts. Starting a trend, but this one's extra special. So how did we. How do we actually come up with the name, hey Jonas? Guys, I honestly don't remember.

[A]

I think it was on a call

[E]

about what we should call it. And, well, we were thinking. I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band, before Jonas Brothers, was. This is how you guys remember it going down?

[I]

Yes.

[E]

I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing a

[A]

bit for the podcast.

[E]

People could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to hey, Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen.

[A]

We don't care where you hear it. All right, we are back. I'm Manny.

[B]

I'm Noah Devin.

[A]

And we're about to dive into a study that just came out recently that helps determine why some octogenarians are much more advanced than their peers. So first, I'll just have one of the authors of the study introduce himself.

[I]

I'm Changiz Gheula. I'm a faculty at the Northwestern University Medical School at the Mesralam center for Cognitive Neurology and Alzheimer's disease.

[A]

Dr. Gaoula is one of the authors on a study called Human Hippocampal Neurogenesis in Adulthood, Aging, and Alzheimer's Disease. And this study was a part of a program at Northwestern where they've been studying this thing for over 25 years. And they have a term for people in their 80s and above who seem to have advanced memory capabilities. And they're called super agers, which is a great name. The first thing I asked Dr. Gaoula was, what is it exactly that differentiates a super ager from someone else their age? Because I thought it was about, you know, sharpness, clarity, like the ability to kind of bounce back and forth in a conversation. But he said it really boils down to their memory.

[I]

About 25 years ago, we started a study that we call Cognitive Super Aging Study. So super agers, we defined as individuals who are 80 years or older, but their memory capacity is equal to or often much better than individuals who are 20, 30 years younger. So these individuals, we all know, individuals in our lives who are very old but very sharp, right? They write books, they are artists, they are professors, they run companies. So these individuals, obviously, generally we consider to be superior in cognitive abilities. But ours is very specific definition over 80 and having memory capacity that is for much younger, normal individuals. And we wanted to study these individuals because it's very important to understand what helps them to preserve their memory, what helps them to preserve their cognitive abilities. Because during normal aging, all of us are Losing cognition after age 30. To a certain extent, it's normal because everybody does it, right? But these individuals have preserved it. And then those who have dementia have great memory problems, particularly Alzheimer's disease. If we find out what factors are helping these individuals preserve memory, then maybe we can help those who are normal and maybe even demented individuals. So this was the impetus of the study. Now, nerve cells, unlike most other cells in the body, do not reproduce themselves after middle childhood or adolescence. Meaning that we are born with a certain number of neurons, nerve cells, particularly those in the brain, and they remain with us throughout our life. And that makes sense if you can imagine. When we form memories, for example, there should be a change in the neuron that encodes that memory. So if that neuron is split or lost, then we can't preserve our memory. So the reason we preserve our personality, our emotions, our memory is because neurons don't divide. Now, there are exceptions to this in the brain. There are two areas, but the more important one is the hippocampus that we talked about. In the hippocampus, there is a region where new neurons are being born, and that is actually the impetus for this study. Hippocampus is the seat of memory. Superagers have superior memory. So we wanted to see if, are there actually neurons that are being generated. That may explain, in part, why these individuals are able to preserve memory to old age. So that's really where all of this fits together.

[A]

So the first thing that surprised me about what he just said there is that our cognitive abilities start to decline after 30. Age 30. I felt like that was so young for things to start declining. But then I think about my life, and it does kind of make sense. Yeah, I'm much more forgetful than I was even four years ago when I was 30.

[B]

If you asked me to repeat those 10, 10 words three, four years ago, I'd be giving you 12 words back.

[C]

Good words you haven't even thought of yet.

[A]

Forgot those words. I'll give you some better ones. So this study, just to be clear, found that there's a small population of people over 80 years old who do generate new neurons in the hippocampus. And that population has been named by the scientists as superagers, people in their 80s who have the same memory capabilities as people in their 50s and 60s.

[C]

I didn't realize how much younger these people's minds were. Right. They were saying 20, 30 years younger than someone their age on average. I was thinking, hey, you know, someone in their 80s, maybe they got the memory of someone in their 70s.

[B]

Yeah. 10, 15 years. Yeah, yeah. Someone 50 versus someone 80.

[F]

Yes.

[C]

A 50 year old having, you know, an 80 year old having the brain capacity or memory of a 50 year old, it's nuts. I mean, that's a huge difference.

[A]

Because then think about, I mean, Noah, you mentioned earlier, if you had just listened to the Maury clip that I played earlier instead of also watching it, you might think he was way younger and he's 87. If he's 30 years younger, do you think that sounds like a 57 year old talking?

[B]

I think largely, Yeah, I think so. And that's maybe that speaks to his longevity as a host. But, like, really, though, I don't think I would have. If I heard them right back to back, I'd probably be like, okay, I think this is the newer one or the older one, but I don't think I would be like, this is a guy in his late 80s.

[A]

Yeah. The only thing that would tip me off, I guess, is just the raspiness of his voice.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But not the same exact kind of cadence and everything, but a stronger voice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You would think, wow, this guy's, you know, relatively young. All right, so I was curious about how exactly Dr. Gayoula identified super agers, you know, beyond their very narrow definition. For example, we know that Dr. Anthony Fauci and Mori are in their 80s and they seem to be very sharp. But, like, what is actually the next step to confirm whether that person is officially a super ager?

[I]

First of all, we recruit, right. This is a formal study, and I must mention that many think, or many families think that an individual is a superager and they refer them to us. And then when we test, we see that of those that supposedly are very superior, only 1% or 2% at most 10%, depending on the cohort, really fit our definition. So again, we require individuals to be above age 80. Then we administer a test of what is called episodic memory, memory of everyday events and things. And it is a very hard test, actually. It has 15 items, 15 words. They are read to them and they have to immediately recall the 15 words. So that's one test. And then we wait for half an hour or so, and they have to remember them again. And normal individuals who are in their 80s maybe can remember five or six. Some of our Superagers can remember all 15, even after that 20 minute period. Now, we have many tests of cognitive abilities. This is only one test, which is a requirement for us that the score on that test be the one for Much younger individuals. But for other tests of cognition, we require them to be normal because we want to define superagers in relation to memory. But often they are also doing better in other cognitive tests. So they go through a cognitive test battery. Then we administer imaging. You've heard of magnetic resonance imaging, mri, so that we can look at their brain. You know, during aging, brain volume is gradually lost, becomes less and less, not significantly. That's dementia. But in normal aging there is loss. We have found, for example, that in superagers there is no shrinkage. If anything, some parts of the brain are thicker even than individuals who are younger. And then we also draw blood to extract DNA to do genetic tests. We draw blood to do other markers that we can follow. So it's very comprehensive. And they are individuals who agree to repeated testing. Right. Every year and a half. So this is a longitudinal study. We can even see if there are any changes as they get older.

[A]

Okay, so as you heard, one of the tests they administer to the oxygen Arians is the memory test that I gave to no a short time ago. And he was saying people in their 80s can sometimes get four or five of the, you know, he gives them 15 words. I gave you 10. But then they, then he said they wait for a 20 minute period. I don't know if it's quite been 20 minutes, but it's a bit about. Here's round, round to try it. And the same. The first round, you got five out of ten of the words.

[B]

I can't, I don't know. I don't think I'll even get those five. Ring, notebook, coffee, building, jeans.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

see, what I was trying to do the first time was like, do the initials and go through it. And then I, I messed it up because then I was like, oh, let me just get these ones at the end. That's where I got jeans from. I don't have any. I definitely can't recall. I can't add to that list.

[A]

All right, on the second you tied iteration of this test.

[B]

I'm glad I didn't lose anything.

[A]

You tied. You got five out of ten in an hour.

[B]

Maybe I'll get.

[C]

Yeah, you got six later.

[A]

But I thought it was interesting he said that the super agers are often getting all 15 words, even the second time, after 20 minutes had passed.

[C]

Yeah, they're still getting.

[A]

And you know we're picking on Noah here. You also had the disadvantage of not knowing. You had to remember it for 20 minutes. I think they know that 20 minutes is going to pass and they're just like saying, but I want.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, but I'm also like, if I was able to recall it the first time, it seems like it would be easier to then just. I got it in a sense. I mean, obviously not knowing anything about how these things work. But it's like, okay, I just have that these are the words versus like, there's something about immediately trying to parrot it that.

[A]

Yeah, you're, you're, you're putting myself out. I thought it was also interesting that people think they know super agers and then once they refer them to the

[B]

study, the 1 to 1%, that's, that's actually shocking. It's interesting because then it just is a matter of like, well, how does this. Or how do we think it shows itself versus the reality of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Where it might just be either fast talk or whatever like you were saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But really there's not maybe as much going on as we think.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And it made me think about like all the examples we went through in the intro for this episode. You know, how many of them are actually super agers. How many of them are developing new neurons in this specific part of the hippocampus versus how many of them are just like, you know, they've been in public life for a long time and they're used to, you know, talking. So at this point, after listening to Dr. Gayula, I did have kind of like a, you know, okay, cool. But so what, like some, some, some 80 year olds can remember things better than other ones? That is interesting because I didn't think that could happen widely. But what does this mean? I mean, are there any other benefits for superagers when compared to what I'm coining regular agers. I don't think regular agers pops up in this study. They can have that one for free.

[B]

Wow. How did you come up with your mind?

[C]

That is my question too. Right. Because it's like, okay, whatever, you have a better memory. Are you living longer because of that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Or you just are able to list 15 things better than the other person who's going to live the same amount of time.

[A]

Right. Should I aspire to be a superager?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Basically,

[I]

we do know that with aging there is some reduction in the processes of neurons. We call them. You know, neurons have these long thread like processes, Right. That connect them to other neurons or that allow them to receive information from other neurons. We know that these gradually get less and less efficient and they are decreased in extent neuronal shrinkage. Neurons shrink a Little bit. And that may describe why the volume of the brain is a little less as we age. So whatever is contributing to disintegration, if you will, during normal aging, superagers resist it. And in some instances, just to give you an example, you know, normal aged individuals have what we call Alzheimer's disease pathology in their brain. But it's very muted, it's just beginning. Right. But this is almost a universal phenomenon in normal aged individuals. A little bit of Alzheimer's pathology. Normal individuals invariably have some Alzheimer's pathology. But what is interesting is that there are some superagers whose brain is just like normal individuals in terms of how much Alzheimer's pathology they have. Which means that these individuals are resilient to the results of Alzheimer's pathology.

[C]

Right.

[I]

The pathology is there, but look at their memory. Right.

[A]

So not only do super agers have advanced memory capabilities for their age, but it also turns out to be the case that they are resilient to the Alzheimer's pathology that we all carry with us. Another fact I didn't know that we all just kind of have Alzheimer's pathology

[C]

and it just how it manifests itself.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. But very interesting to. To hear that that they're just so much more resilient. You know, you really do want to be a superager in that sense that you will be able to fight Alzheimer's better once you get to that age.

[C]

Yeah, the two things. Right. He said there's a lot of superagers who they have it, but it's not active.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And then there are people who superagers who have is active but they're overcoming it and still able to recall things. That's crazy.

[A]

And you think about like octogenarians who do seem slower or normal, normally old, probably not as resilient to Alzheimer's than the superagers. And that's why, you know, maybe some of that is kicking in towards the end of their lives.

[B]

Our favorite movie, Osmosis Jones. There should be a sequel called Neuron Jones and it's a neuron fighting Alzheimer's. Yeah, that's in an old guy.

[A]

Which comedian should play Larry David?

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't publish this because I'm taking this to Pixar right after this. I'm going to L. A First flight out.

[C]

Yeah, right in all the plane.

[A]

Would you call it Nerd?

[B]

Neuron Jones.

[A]

Neuron Jones.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You'll remember.

[A]

You're gonna remember that name.

[B]

Yeah, Neuron Jones. Well, he's like his, his. He's great uncle. Yeah, he's Osmosis. Great uncle.

[C]

Great uncle.

[A]

And it can be a kind of a crossover. Like, Chris Rock can come back. As I'm saying, you know, maybe. Maybe Larry David is just an older cop in that precinct.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot of. There's so many ways, because I know people don't really like Bill Murray anymore.

[A]

What happened to Bill Murray?

[B]

I think he was, like, creepy or something.

[C]

Yeah, but he's movie.

[A]

He's old. Yeah.

[B]

I wouldn't call him a super ager.

[C]

Not that old, though, right?

[B]

He's pretty old.

[C]

He's got to be like Larry.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Younger than Larry. I think.

[A]

I think I'd say a little 75.

[B]

Okay.

[I]

Wow.

[B]

Younger.

[A]

How old is Larry?

[B]

He seems older.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Martha Stewart. We didn't bring up.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's. Well, yeah, that's a great one.

[A]

How old is she?

[C]

She's.

[A]

She's 84.

[B]

I haven't heard her. I haven't really listened to her recently.

[I]

She.

[B]

And I feel like she. She talks pretty well, obviously looks great

[A]

just as a frame of reference. Like, all the people we're talking about, for the most part, were born before World War II. Like, that's how long they've been around. Oh, and to be able to just still exist in this world after all that time.

[C]

Not an easy world.

[B]

Hard for me, as you can tell from my test.

[A]

All right, so we know what superagers are now. We know that they have advanced memory capabilities for their age and that they're even more resilient to Alzheimer's than regular agers. But I was curious whether super aging just happens. Like, is it just genetic or, you know, is it the case that we can affect whether we are going to be super agers? Because it sounds like you really want to be a superager.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I need to know the answer to this. I need to hear this. No one say anything during this.

[A]

I'm listening.

[I]

Certain things we understand now. Number one, particularly in super ages, we have found that their social networks are much larger than normal individuals. That's very interesting. Right. We said epigenetics, so it may be actually influencing how genes are expressed and contributing to cognition. We also know that isolation in older individuals is bad. Right. Because it can actually lead to dementia. So we know now both sides of this story. So having a very strong social network, social connections is good. Something we want to promote and make sure ourselves have very consistent connections in society with our family, with our friends. And then another factor, and this goes beyond the super aging. You know, the brain Requires a very healthy body to function well. So every system of the body influences the brain. Right. It's the biggest consumer of energy. So all of our, you know, the heart that is pumping blood for energy, all the systems that have to do with energy production, consumption, the food we eat, they're all going to be very important for brain function. Respiration. Brain is the highest user of oxygen. Right. So having a healthy heart, we are now understanding that diseases such as heart disease, such as diabetes, are risk factors for dementia. Right. So if there is a systemic disease or a problem, helping it and keeping it in check by, you know, not skipping medications, which is very often what individuals do, but really keeping it healthy at the normal level is going to be very important for the brain. So that's why exercise is important, because of the respiration and our heartbeat being healthier, if you will. There is one other factor that we know in elderly is very important for cognitive function, and that is remaining mentally active. Superagers continue to do things up to the very time they die. They're mentally continuously active. So it's very important, particularly in the Western societies where we work and then we look forward to retirement, to do nothing, not to be healthy, both physically as well as mentally. So keeping mentally active, however, that can happen, you know, reading as much as we can, engaging in problem solving. And of course, many elderly do volunteer work that requires them to be mentally active. Those are all very important activities and help to keep us mentally sharp into old age.

[A]

So we probably could have guessed that, like, trying to be as healthy as possible throughout your life is going to extend your lifespan. But I was interested to hear about, like, the social network, because I think there's a natural inclination to, when you get older, you. You kind of shrink the size of your friend group, for example. I mean, we, we have that even in our 30s where.

[C]

Yeah, no new friends.

[A]

Yeah, it's just like, there's just. There's the tolerance for including more. More new people in your life, I think. Shrinks over time.

[C]

It's also just harder.

[A]

Yeah, it's all. Yeah, exactly. It's more difficult to maintain that size of the group. But good to know that, like, that is one of the kind of common denominators with super agers. They still have not only just big social networks, but also, I think it's more about, like, how strong those relationships are. Maybe actually having a giant social network where you barely, you know, really interact with people doesn't count.

[C]

So what are the three we got? Like you said, social network, active, social Network, families, friends, relationships, not being isolated. We got just fitness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, see, this is the health.

[A]

The heart.

[B]

Another part of Neuron Jones, my film. The whole body needs to be working in concert.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

The heart.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Hugely important. Yeah.

[A]

The heart will be. I guess it'll be a different person's body. Is it still Bill Murray's body?

[B]

It's a body.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

A body.

[B]

We're still the same human bodies. Yeah.

[A]

We're in casting because the heart, I think, does make an appearance in Osmosis.

[B]

They'll come back.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So we'll need them for that.

[A]

Bill, we need your heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then the third is just keeping your mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. So problem solving. You know, you talk about gaming old people. Doing cross play.

[B]

Halo.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Crosswords, Sudoku, you know, problem solving, which

[C]

is, I think, you know, like he was talking about. People think about retiring, but you're leaving the workplace in a workplace, you're doing a lot of. A lot more reading, use your brain a lot more. A lot more problem solving.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You go from that to doing. Absolutely.

[B]

Sitting at home. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Watching tv.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

If your goal is to, you know, remain as cognitively present as possible into your advanced years, the thing about getting old and, like, moving to a farm or. And just like, being by yourself and isolating is not going to help in that endeavor. So what do you guys think about this? I mean, all three of us have decently sized networks.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're doing well in there. I try to see people. We just got to make sure they don't shrink.

[C]

It's early.

[A]

It is early.

[C]

We're lucky. We got, you know, we got to hold on to this for 50 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, yeah, in 50 years, we're probably, you know, if we want to stay alive, we got to do this podcast still. We still got to be coming down here.

[B]

Yeah. It might be our only hope, you know, that. Or have a lot of kids and be nice to them so that, you

[A]

know, each new kid you have increases the size of your social network.

[C]

Hopefully, if you are a good parent.

[B]

Yeah. Or it could. It could go the other way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so by now we're very familiar with the concept of a super ager, but I don't think it would be right to end this episode unless we actually talked to a super ager, someone who was confirmed to be a super ager by participating in that Northwestern study. So to close this episode out, we'll be speaking to 91 year old Ralph Rehbach. But first, we've Got to pay some bills. Welcome back to no Such Thing. This is Manny, and For the last 40 odd minutes we've been learning what a superager is and why we should all strive to be one. What you're about to hear though, is my conversation with an actual super ager. I'll let him introduce himself.

[F]

My name is Ralph Rehbach. I was born in 1970, 34 and I am 91 years old, almost 92 in July. On a daily basis after I wake up, I go over to my computer or my phone and I see if I've had got any messages or any emails, then make sure with my calendar what's going on today because I have everything written by hand in a calendar that I keep meticulously. I get ready for breakfast. I should say that my wife has some physical issues and we have a caregiver in our home and the caregiver fixes our breakfast. And I'm still driving at age 91. Driving is basically only when taking my wife to doctor's appointments or my own doctor's appointments. When we come back from an appointment, I look at my table that always has a 24 by 30 inch thousand piece puzzle going and I probably put in a few pieces into that. And one second somebody's at my door.

[A]

At this point in my interview with Ralph, someone showed up at his door.

[C]

Hello.

[J]

Hi.

[F]

Hi. Hi. Hi. No, the next is at the 22nd. I'm on a podcast right now.

[A]

It turned out that a few fellow super ager went to Ralph's house for a get together. But unfortunately Ralph's friend got the date wrong.

[I]

It's not what it used to be.

[F]

And on a podcast

[A]

this interaction struck me because it showed that even super agers are not immune to cognitive decay. At some point it comes for everyone.

[F]

Anyway, I like to be very careful not to make those kinds of mistakes.

[A]

Another thing about Ralph though that he thinks contributed to him becoming a superager is that he and his family actually fled Nazi Germany.

[F]

I am a Holocaust survivor. We came from Germany in 191938 and became part of the Chicago south side community and started kindergarten in 1939. I had lost my German language and accent right at that time in the 1970s in Chicago, the Nazi party was having a march and we survivors wanted to make sure that our stories were told because up to that time in America, people weren't really responding to the end of the war and what may have happened during World War II and the fact that 6 million Jews were murdered and a million and a half children were killed just because they were Jewish. However, in the 1970s, these Nazi marches really opened our eyes, those of us that had survived to needing to tell our stories. And so from that particular moment on in the 1980s, after our Illinois Holocaust Museum was founded, I started telling my story. And that keeps me going.

[A]

Finally, I asked Rolf if he had any advice for people who want to become superagers like him.

[F]

Absolutely. First of all, do the right things. Be healthy in what one eats, Be healthy in what one does. Get involved in activities that are meaningful. And the last thing we luckily got married at age 21. We had children quickly after age 21, and now we have six great grandchildren, to say nothing of five grandchildren and husbands and wives, and therefore 10 of those. And so that whole group of 13 keep me active and involved and concerned about all of them. We're celebrating our 70th wedding anniversary next week and all of those people will be able to to be together because they're living close by. So family relationships are another thing. Any or all of those things that I mentioned, if you and others like you decide to do, you'll get there as well.

[A]

No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatikadur. The show was created by Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. The theme and credit song are by me, Manny Fidel and the mixing is done by Steve Bone. Thank you to our guests this week, Dr. Changiz Gaoula and Ralph Rehbach. You can learn more about Northwestern Study of the Super Agers at the link in our Show Notes. Be sure to visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our newsletter and if you have feedback or a question, Our email is maninoadevinmail.com we will be back next week.

[E]

This is an I Heart Podcast.

[F]

Guaranteed human.