NO SUCH THING – “Was Benjamin Franklin a Fraud?”

Podcast: NO SUCH THING
Host: Kaleidoscope (Manny, Noah, Devin)
Guest: Dr. Claire Aubin (Historian, Yale; This Guy Sucked podcast)
Episode Date: March 18, 2026

EPISODE OVERVIEW

Main Theme:
The trio of friends and journalists—Manny, Noah, and Devin—unpack the provocative listener question: Was Benjamin Franklin a fraud? Was he a grifter with a genius for PR, or a genuine founding father? With insights from friends (a Franklin hater and a Franklin fan) and expert historical context from Dr. Claire Aubin, the episode explores the myths, truths, and uncomfortable realities behind Franklin's outsize legacy.

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. The Origins of the Debate (Timestamps: 02:47–10:43)

• Listener Prompt: (03:11) Kelsey, a Philly resident, argues Franklin was “a grifter with a great PR team,” questioning the sheer number of innovations and his persistent local celebrity. She compares him to “an Elon Musk kind of fraudster: the ideas guy with a big checkbook.”
• Counterpoint: (06:43–09:26) Rich, a self-described history buff and Franklin fan, defends Franklin: “You wouldn’t send him around to all these high-stakes positions if he’s a fraud...he used [celebrity] to his cause’s benefit.”
• Hosts’ Synthesis: The panel notes that Kelsey’s frustration is with Franklin's “innovation” legend, while Rich focuses on his nation-building and diplomacy—two lines of argument not necessarily irreconcilable.

2. Enter the Historian: Claire Aubin Breaks it Down (13:09–61:00)

Claire’s Framework for the Franklin Myth

• Not Mutually Exclusive: (15:12) “The two arguments—that he's a fraud and that he's important—are not in opposition...one could be a fraud and also important and memorable at the same time.”
• Big Questions Explored:
  1. Did Franklin have haters?
  2. Would he have been taken more seriously if he’d been president?
  3. Did he steal credit for inventions?
  4. What’s actually bad about Franklin?

What Did Franklin Really Do? (16:35–21:34)

• Franklin credited with: diplomacy (especially the French alliance in the Revolution), working on electricity, drafting foundational documents (Declaration, Treaty of Paris, Constitution), inventing bifocals, fire departments, postal service, etc.
• Myth vs. Reality (17:42–21:33):
  • Franklin often popularized or formalized ideas, but was rarely the sole inventor.
  • Example: The lightning rod and electricity theories were in development across Europe; Franklin’s specific contributions fit into a much larger, international scientific conversation.
  • “The lone genius scientist guy...isn’t real; that’s not actually how science or innovation works.” (19:19, Claire)
  • Historical education and mythmaking—especially elementary curriculum—tend to oversimplify.

Renaissance Man, or Normal for His Time? (23:35–26:22)

• The “Jack of all trades” myth is partly true—that was actually less remarkable in Franklin’s era: “The way we conceive of sciences and the humanities as separate is relatively recent...an educated man was interested in all these things.” (24:11, Claire)
• Comparison to modern specialization in youth sports: We now narrow expertise much earlier.

On Inventions (27:14–29:05)

• Bifocals: Franklin “perfected an idea that had existed; he made something people had been thinking about into a thing.”
• Fire departments, insurance: Franklin didn’t invent these concepts, but helped formalize or popularize them in the American context.
• Even in his own time, figures like John Adams were frustrated by “mythmaking” and Franklin’s outsized credit (31:04).

Did Franklin Have Haters? (31:37–34:06)

• Political peers (like John and Samuel Adams, and Jefferson) sometimes privately expressed annoyance at Franklin’s celebrity, but there wasn’t a “hate movement.”
• British officials disliked Franklin for his revolutionary effectiveness.
• “There was already frustration...at how people were engaging in myth making around him.” (31:04, Claire)

Franklin and Slavery: The Uncomfortable Truth (34:13–41:41)

• Abolitionist Pivot: Franklin shifted toward abolitionism late in life, leading a public group by the 1780s, but, crucially, “for most of his life...he owns slaves, profits from them, and refuses to condemn the practice.” (36:03–37:03)
• Franklin used his newspaper, the Pennsylvania Gazette, to make money from slave ads and runaway notices.
• Even after his “conversion,” he only freed his last slaves upon his death—and both died before they could benefit (36:19).
• “He benefits enormously from enslaving people. That should be part of the conversation.” (40:09)
• The “normalcy” defense breaks down: “Of the Founding Fathers...a little over a quarter were not slaveholders. If you can say it’s normal to be an enslaver, also normal not to be.” (38:58, Claire)

Other Problematic Legacies (41:41–42:24)

• Expansionism: Franklin espoused taking Western lands from indigenous peoples—less violently articulated than some peers, but still part of settler-colonial project.

Why Wasn’t He President? (44:50–46:50)

• Franklin never served as president, largely because he was very old during founding events (81 at the Constitutional Convention; Washington was 55).
• His delegate/diplomat status gave him more time—and less direct responsibility.

Franklin: The Celebrity Archetype, “Kooky Genius Guy” (48:08–50:58)

• Is there a modern equivalent? Maybe a mashup of diplomat and tech billionaire, but none quite fit.
• Franklin also “on brand” as an eccentric:
  • Wrote “Fart Proudly,” encouraging the scientific study of flatulence (50:22).
  • Penned explicit letters about the virtues of marrying older women: “As in the dark, all cats are gray...the pleasure of corporal enjoyment with an old woman is at least equal and frequently superior.” (51:33–52:30)
• “Every historical figure, if you look hard enough, you’re going to find something crazy.” (53:43, Claire)

Why Don’t We Scrutinize Franklin More Today? (55:28–58:16)

• As a non-president, Franklin avoids the status scrutinized for presidents like Jefferson and Jackson.
• He’s associated more with innovation than with wielding power.
• The enduring allure of the “kooky genius” archetype lets us overlook faults: “We love the interesting genius dude—that’s an archetype we’ve been working with for a very long time.” (57:57)

The Broader Problem: Historical Reassessment Avoidance (58:17–61:14)

• Re-examining revered figures is uncomfortable because it forces us to confront uncomfortable truths about our own social legacy:
  • “People are uncomfortable with having to reassess historical figures ... when we reassess the past, it makes you have to think harder about what you’re dealing with right now.” (58:46)
  • For most, it’s comforting to tell “one-dimensional guy” stories, rather than embrace complexity.

NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On Franklin’s myth as “the sole genius”:
  “The lone genius scientist guy...isn’t real; that’s not actually how science or innovation works.” (Claire, 19:19)
• On his celebrity even in his era:
  “He was as close to a celebrity as you could get...using that to his cause’s benefit.” (Rich, 08:10)
• On education’s role in mythmaking:
  “It seems like he’s benefited from...the elementary school curriculum. The oversimplification happens because they’re teaching this to kids.” (Manny, 21:34)
• Franklin’s problematic legacy: “For almost his whole life, [Franklin] makes money off slavery and benefits enormously from enslaving people...that should be part of the conversation.” (Claire, 40:09)
  • “Even after his abolitionist turn, they both, the two that he names in his will, both die before he does. So they die still enslaved.” (Claire, 36:19)
• On the “kooky genius guy” archetype: “We love the kooky genius guy...that’s an archetype we’ve been working with for a very, very long time.” (Claire, 57:57)
• Franklin’s “MILF Letter”:
  “In the dark, all cats are gray...the pleasure of corporal enjoyment with an old woman is at least equal and frequently superior. Every neck being by practice capable of improvement.” (Claire reading Franklin, 51:29–52:30)
• On the difficulty of historical nuance:
  “All of these things are true at the same time. And also he sucks. And also he’s smart. You know?” (Claire, 61:02)

TIMELINE OF MAJOR SECTIONS

| TIME | SEGMENT/CONTENT | |---------|--------------------------------------------| | 02:47–10:43 | Listener calls (Kelsey, Rich); setting up debate | | 13:07–15:49 | Introduction of Dr. Claire Aubin; episode hand-off | | 16:23–21:34 | Claire discusses Franklin’s accomplishments, myth vs reality | | 23:23–26:22 | “Renaissance man” context & modern parallels | | 27:14–29:05 | Details on bifocals, fire department, inventions | | 31:04–34:06 | Franklin’s haters: Adams, Jefferson, British | | 34:13–41:41 | His involvement in/benefit from slavery, abolition | | 44:50–46:50 | Why Franklin never became president | | 48:08–53:43 | Eccentricity: Fart Proudly, MILF letters, “kooky genius”| | 55:28–61:14 | Why Franklin escapes scrutiny/one-dimensional heroism| | 63:23–67:24 | Reunion & reflection: Kelsey and Rich respond |

FINAL REACTIONS: Kelsey & Rich (63:23–67:24)

• Rich: Reiterates that Franklin’s fame was leveraged for diplomatic purpose: “Basically the Kardashian of the founding fathers.” Even just the French alliance would have made him historically significant.
• Kelsey: Expresses awareness that her “real beef” may be with celebrity culture, not Franklin per se. “I have some anger at the kooky little genius guy archetype…I live by [the idea that] nothing is original, the best things we do are together…so the idea that this one little guy could come up with all these things on his own…comes into sharp tension.”
• Both agree: The issues are less black-and-white than their initial positions.

CONCLUSION

The episode concludes with a nuanced, critical take:

• Franklin was neither an unblemished hero nor a total fraud.
• His legendary status is the result of real accomplishments, clever self-promotion, oversimplified education, and his particular timing in history.
• Serious flaws, especially his role in slavery and colonial expansion, complicate his legacy.
• “All of these things are true at the same time. And also he sucks. And also he’s smart. And also... we like a one-dimensional guy when we think about history.” (Claire, 61:02)

For More:

• Visit nosuchthing.show for links, research, and the full “Fart Proudly Manifesto.”
• Suggest new debates by emailing mannynoahdevan@gmail.com.