What's the best way to split the bill?

Summary

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NO SUCH THING Podcast

Episode: What's the Best Way to Split the Bill?
Date: June 24, 2026
Hosts: Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman, Devin Joseph
Special Guest: Kate Lindsay
Expert Guests: Lizzie Post (Emily Post Institute), Beth Pinsker (MarketWatch)

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the perennial quandary of Venmo etiquette and the complexities of splitting group bills in the digital age. The panel dives into real-life scenarios, ethical dilemmas, and listener stories—exploring exactly how technology has changed our relationship with paying friends (or not paying them back at all). Along the way, the hosts consult etiquette and financial experts to get some "official" guidance, live-cancel a 9-year-old Venmo request, and debate everything from minimum Venmo amounts to coping with stingy multimillionaire friends.

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Table of Contents

• Main Discussion – The $18 Venmo Request
  • The Origin Story (03:22–08:33)
  • How Long Is Too Long For a Venmo Request? (06:30–08:33)
  • “I don’t need it—I mean, it’s $24 now, so maybe I do.” (08:02, Kate)
• How Digital Payments Have Changed Splitting the Bill (13:36–18:27)
• Venmo Best Practices and Expert Guidance
  • What’s the Minimum Venmo Etiquette? (18:50–22:00)
  • Is It Safe to Leave Money in Venmo? (22:13–27:37)
• Listener Stories & Sticky Situations
  • The Stingy Millionaire Friend (30:17–37:14)
  • Vacation Bill Nightmare (37:42–47:26)
• Resolving the Long-Held Grudge: Live Cancellation (48:27–49:39)
• Key Quotes & Notable Moments
• Expert Takeaways
• Practical Tips & Etiquette Summary

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Main Discussion – The $18 Venmo Request

The Origin Story (03:22–08:33)

• Kate tells a story that’s haunted her for nine years: in 2017, she picked up a group birthday bar tab (oysters involved), then evenly requested $18 from each attendee on Venmo.
• Everyone paid… except one friend (“Susan”). The request—complete with a canoe emoji (for oysters)—still lingers in Kate’s Venmo, unanswered after almost a decade.

Quote:

"Every time I open [Venmo], and I know, having received requests many times before, I know it's the same with Susan. Every time either of us are opening up Venmo, we are seeing that."
—Kate Lindsay (06:44)

• The crew debates possible scenarios: Did Susan simply miss the request? Left Venmo altogether? Turns out—she’s still active.

Memorable moment: Attempting to calculate the inflation-adjusted debt (“$18 in 2017 is now $24.65”—06:17).

How Long Is Too Long For a Venmo Request? (06:30–08:33)

• Should Kate remind, cancel, or just let it go?
• Group agrees: after this much time, both parties are probably too embarrassed to take action.
• Kate notes the psychological weirdness:

  "I'm not the one who owes $18, to be clear. I don't need it—I mean it's $24 now, so maybe I do." (08:02)

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How Digital Payments Have Changed Splitting the Bill (13:36–18:27)

• Pre-Venmo era: More direct and sometimes awkward confrontations; you paid for what you ate, usually with cash.
• Post-Venmo: Easier to pay someone back, but easier to ignore requests. Technology makes it possible to avoid confrontation with just a few digital taps.

Quote:

"It makes things so easy to pay people back, but it also makes it so easy not to pay people…"
—Kate Lindsay (08:15)

• Group reminisces about cash-era awkwardness—Applebee’s and “who didn’t put in enough?” (16:44–17:02)
• Kate notes it’s not just about preventing awkwardness:

  "It doesn't seem like Venmo solved that awkwardness. It's just made us be able to be more avoidant." (15:53)

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Venmo Best Practices and Expert Guidance

What’s the Minimum Venmo Etiquette? (18:50–22:00)

• Lizzie Post (Emily Post Institute) recommends $10 as a rough minimum for Venmo requests, but notes that small amounts can matter for some people.
  • If you’re requesting $2 for coffee, reconsider.

Quote:

"I would say $10 or less starts to be like, I could let that slide."
—Lizzie Post (19:20)

• Hosts agree:
  • Single-digit requests feel petty.
  • It's more about reciprocation over time.
  • Give friends the benefit of the doubt for coffee or a beer; “it’ll all even out.” (20:55–21:07)

Is It Safe to Leave Money in Venmo? (22:13–27:37)

• Financial planning concerns: Is it risky to leave a Venmo balance?
• Beth Pinsker (MarketWatch):
  • Funds in Venmo are not FDIC-insured.
  • You lose interest, and if Venmo fails, the money is at risk.
  • Recommendation: Transfer to bank account promptly.
• Group confesses to occasionally letting Venmo balances pile up for “mental accounting” reasons.
• Discussion of the “illusion” of free money and the dangers of mixing real money/credit/payments owed (24:10–25:57).

Quote:

"If it's in a bank, nothing bad can happen to that money... but with Venmo, it's not insured."
—Beth Pinsker (24:17)

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Listener Stories & Sticky Situations

The Stingy Millionaire Friend (30:17–37:14)

• Listener story: Wealthy friend always Venmo’s back just slightly less than owed (e.g., $36 instead of $40)—never enough to fight over, but it adds up over years.
• Hosts hypothesize possible innocent math mistakes (not including tip, tax?), but also acknowledge a broader pattern: wealthier friends sometimes nickel-and-dime more.
• Beth Pinsker: Offers a psychological angle—people with an “abundance” mindset may guard their money more fiercely.
• How to respond? The group suggests requesting the correct amount, to force the math to the surface, and recommends addressing it at the table.

Quote:

"It's hard for me to believe, in the instance... it's hard for me to not think of her friend as a certain type of person because of this."
—Kate Lindsay (34:44)

"If it's only that four dollar difference... and if they do (dispute), at the very least, you can hear the math."
—Noah Friedman & Kate Lindsay (35:52–35:58)

Vacation Bill Nightmare (37:42–47:26)

• Listener "Mitch" (voicemail):
  • Middle-class couple attends a lavish group Aruba birthday vacation with higher-rolling friends.
  • At a fancy restaurant, everyone else orders $50 shots of Azul tequila; Mitch & wife stick to $70 of food/soda.
  • Group wants to split the bill evenly—costs they can’t cover, awkward confrontation ensues.

Host reactions:

• Sympathy for needing to speak up ("This is an egregious situation"—42:23); most prefer to split equally for convenience, but everyone agrees there should be a threshold.
• If bills are disproportionate, it’s fair to object, especially if you are not partaking in the luxury items.

Lizzie Post’s advice:

• Speaking up was absolutely the correct move (“It’s a power move, but it’s an important power move on this one…”—46:33).
• You’re not asking permission—you are stating your boundary.
• Best practice: Bring up how to settle the bill before the meal begins to avoid awkwardness after the fact (47:11–47:26).

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Resolving the Long-Held Grudge: Live Cancellation (48:27–49:39)

• Kate finally takes Lizzie Post’s advice to heart: “I will be canceling… live on the pod.”
• Noah counts her in: “5, 4, 3, 2, Cancel.”
• Kate:

  "Lighter. Does it feel like a weight? I wonder what she's gonna think when she opens her... All right, we'll see." (49:33–49:39)

• Hosts ponder whether “Susan” will feel anything, or if it will resurface as a new awkward conversation.

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Key Quotes & Notable Moments

• On digital etiquette:

  "Venmo made it easier to pay people back—and easier to ghost them." (08:15, Kate Lindsay)

• On minimum requests:

  “Single digits, you’re wasting everyone’s time.” (20:22, Noah Friedman)

• On splitting the bill:

  "Just split the bill. Everyone owes the same. But... you have to be thoughtful if that makes sense for everyone at the table." (37:25, Kate Lindsay)

• On standing your ground:

  “It’s not like you’re asking these people for the permission… you’re stating your boundary.” (46:21, Lizzie Post)

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Expert Takeaways

Lizzie Post (Emily Post Institute)

• $10 is a good minimum for Venmo requests, unless the context demands otherwise.
• It’s your job to politely but firmly state your needs when the group’s spending goes far beyond your intentions.
• Cancel lingering Venmo requests after a week or two; don’t let them fester for years.
• Initiate upfront conversations about splitting the bill in large group settings.

Beth Pinsker (MarketWatch)

• Never treat Venmo balances as secure savings—transfer out regularly.
• Don’t rely on others to pay you back; pay your own share when possible.
• Don’t accumulate “owed” money and accidentally double-spend.

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Practical Tips & Etiquette Summary

• Split Evenly vs. Itemize:

  • Split evenly only when consumption is roughly similar among the group; itemize if bills/choices differ significantly (e.g., some are ordering $50 shots, others aren’t drinking).

• Minimum for Venmo Requests:

  • Generally, avoid requesting under $10 unless it’s genuinely important.

• Initiate Discussion Early:

  • Address how you’ll split the bill or cover items before ordering, not at check time.

• Persistent Non-Payers:

  • After 1–2 reminders and a week or so, cancel the request and move on. Don’t let old debts hang over you emotionally.

• Venmo Balances:

  • Transfer out balances for safety; they are not FDIC-insured and won’t earn interest.

• With Friends Who Always Underpay:

  • Request the correct amount and address discrepancies openly; repeated small slights add up and merit a conversation.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode offers a lively, candid, and thoroughly-researched exploration of the dos and don’ts of modern money etiquette among friends. Through real stories, expert insight, and a healthy dose of humor and self-awareness, Manny, Noah, Devin, and guest Kate Lindsay dig into why splitting the bill isn’t “solved”—and why, even with Venmo, friendship sometimes needs a little more communication and kindness.

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For more, subscribe or send your own questions to the NO SUCH THING crew at nosuchthing.show.

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Transcript

[Kate Lindsay]

Kaleidoscope.

[Manny Fadal]

I'm Manny.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm Noah.

[Devin Joseph]

And this is Devin. And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments. And yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're answering your questions about Venmo etiquette.

[Manny Fadal]

There's no Such thing.

[Cal Penn]

No Such Thing.

[Kate Lindsay]

This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.

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[Manny Fadal]

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[Kate Lindsay]

Hey, stay in your lane.

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[Devin Joseph]

we have a special guest in the studio today, fellows joining us, our first repeat guest on the pod. Hey, Lindsay, let's go through your episodes because you got some bangers.

[Kate Lindsay]

Thank you so much. The first one would be why can't I order from the kids menu?

[Devin Joseph]

The second episode we did was Cats.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Or outdoor. Outdoor Cats versus indoor cats.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, and I've referenced that. That recently because, like, I forget where we were. But, you know, I confidently now I'm like, they may be happier outside, but they live less long. And that's what we learn. And so I've used that.

[Devin Joseph]

And they get lots of enrichment in here. All right. And today you came to us with a really a Venmo debacle that you're trying to sort through.

[Kate Lindsay]

Well, so we're here today because we found, you know, I've been a guest frequently on this podcast, Manny's been on icymi, and that there is some overlap when it comes to sort of solving dumb arguments. And a lot of dumb arguments can happen on or about the Internet. And I thought it would be really great opportunity to explore a issue, a weird etiquette Internet issue that has plagued me for close to 10 years. We're at nine years right now, and it has to do with Venmo. And so I'll just take you back. It's May 2017. I live in Bushwick, so let that sink in.

[Manny Fadal]

Ten is a long time.

[Kate Lindsay]

Not far from where we are right now. And I live in an apartment with two other roommates, and one of them has a birthday, and we go to the bar for her birthday. And I guess I was feeling like Daddy Warbucks or something, because I was like, everyone ordered drinks, and specifically they ordered, like, oysters, which I don't eat. And I think I just. I think it was to avoid the tension I knew was coming of like, no one has put a card down and we are going to have to pay for this. And so I was just like, I'll do it. And then I went ahead and Venmoed everyone. 18 is what it came out to split, so it's not even that bad.

[Manny Fadal]

Evenly between.

[Kate Lindsay]

Evenly. He can get into my thoughts behind that in a little bit. But I just did it in even $18, even though I didn't have an oyster and everyone fulfilled it.

[Noah Friedman]

How many people are we talking here?

[Kate Lindsay]

I would say it was around eight to 10 people.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay, so it's a big group.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Sizable.

[Devin Joseph]

That's a big check. Sizable.

[Kate Lindsay]

And every single one. I got all their venmos there, and I sent out all the requests, and then it all went how it's supposed to go. Except for one person who I will not name on the podcast, who by all accounts is a perfectly normal, nice person. They to this day have not answered my request for $18. And I'm looking at it right now, and I still it appears I used the canoe emoji as a way to sort of symbol oysters.

[Manny Fadal]

Interesting.

[Devin Joseph]

Water.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. That's all it says. And then it says I can cancel or remind. And it's still says, I requested $18 from on May 30, 2017.

[Noah Friedman]

Let's come up with the name for them.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Susan.

[Kate Lindsay]

Susan.

[Manny Fadal]

All right, Susan.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. So Susan owes me 18, and now 20.

[Devin Joseph]

What year?

[Kate Lindsay]

It says 2017.

[Noah Friedman]

Someone look up how much that would be now.

[Devin Joseph]

$30, adjusted for inflation.

[Manny Fadal]

Let's all guess.

[Noah Friedman]

Not to mention just markup, you know, 2017.

[Manny Fadal]

I'm 23, 24.

[Kate Lindsay]

We can literally do this. $18 in. It would have been May.

[Manny Fadal]

I'm gonna say it's 30 bucks.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm gonna say 23.

[Kate Lindsay]

26.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, 26.

[Kate Lindsay]

Oh. Oh, got it, got it, got it. So it is now. So now I'm. So According to the CPI inflation calculator on the US Bureau of Labor Statistics website, 18 in May 2017 is now worth 24.65.

[Noah Friedman]

24 in 2026.

[Devin Joseph]

So price is right rules. I win.

[Manny Fadal]

You won that 23.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

That's a pretty big.

[Devin Joseph]

That's a big difference.

[Kate Lindsay]

If anything, it's an investment that I've made that has been growing over time.

[Manny Fadal]

I'm assuming it's gonna make its way back.

[Kate Lindsay]

So that is the question, because every time I open it up, and I know, having received requests many times before, I know it's the same with Susan. Every time either of us are opening up Venmo, we are seeing that. And the problem is, I would say around year two, is I think when I passed a normal amount of time to do anything of that.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Year two, I think year one, I

[Manny Fadal]

would take two months, I guess.

[Kate Lindsay]

I guess the thing is, it's just like it would have been. I guess I still have been crazy in year two, but now, like, yeah,

[Noah Friedman]

we're in year nine, but now I think you've crested over a wave where now it's like, what do you have to lose? Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Well, the thing is, because the problem is notifications. Like, if I could just sort of quit, quietly erase it, I would. But no matter what, if I remind her, obviously, that's crazy. We'll get a notification. Even if I cancel, it'll say, like, kate has canceled the summer request.

[Manny Fadal]

Really? It notifies someone if you cancel it?

[Kate Lindsay]

I. I believe it does. Maybe I'm doing this information.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. Why don't we test it now?

[Noah Friedman]

But, yeah, I mean, so.

[Kate Lindsay]

And then she'll know the other way she'll know when she opens it up and see. But like I don't know why I'm like nervous about like, I don't. I'm not the one who owes 18 to be clear. I don't need it. I mean it's 24 now, so maybe I do.

[Manny Fadal]

But I, I, that's like one cocktail somewhere.

[Kate Lindsay]

I know, I know. Probably at the same bar. Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So.

[Kate Lindsay]

So that's. That's just always been in the back of my mind is like with Venmo specifically, it's like what it makes things. It makes it so easy to pay people back, but it also makes it so easy not to pay people because you just don't have to. There's. They don't have enforcers who show up at home.

[Manny Fadal]

It's not a bank.

[Kate Lindsay]

Which is of course something I would have them do. And, and so I don't know if you. Have you guys ever been in this? What would like, what are your. What are your thoughts?

[Noah Friedman]

Well, is there any chance that Susan has divested themselves from Venmo?

[Kate Lindsay]

This is true.

[Noah Friedman]

Like can. Do they have a public profile? Can you see if they're still. Click on their name right after this was like, I'm actually a cash app

[Kate Lindsay]

girl making payments as recently as May

[Noah Friedman]

public ones. No, that's actually crazy.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

So I guess that's rude due diligence here. Is there any possible way she could not. Could have not seen your request?

[Devin Joseph]

Not if she's using it.

[Manny Fadal]

So if you go into the app when you.

[Kate Lindsay]

No matter what, when you're looking, if you're going to. When she's going to go pay someone back. So like for instance, my husband has requested WI FI money for me, which is crazy because we do have a shared credit card. So we'll figure that out.

[Manny Fadal]

That's another episode.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

But.

[Manny Fadal]

But so that sits at the top no matter where.

[Kate Lindsay]

But then right underneath. Yeah, she would be seeing that.

[Devin Joseph]

Unless she just has a long list of people she's not paying back.

[Noah Friedman]

I mean, not knowing this.

[Manny Fadal]

She has a pain.

[Kate Lindsay]

I gotta put that down.

[Manny Fadal]

Okay. So she definitely sees the request when she's in the Venmo app and she uses Venmo app.

[Devin Joseph]

If she's using it, she's gonna see it.

[Kate Lindsay]

She's using it. I guess my thing would be. I wonder if for her it similarly feels insane to just like randomly pay

[Manny Fadal]

you back nine years later.

[Kate Lindsay]

Why.

[Devin Joseph]

But she ignored it.

[Kate Lindsay]

Right. Why in the first place. Ignore it.

[Devin Joseph]

Exactly.

[Kate Lindsay]

Is.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Is what I'm curious about.

[Devin Joseph]

Maybe she feels like she doesn't. Do you remember her eating the problem?

[Kate Lindsay]

Because now we're like 10 years out and I'm like, did she eat at the. It's like I.

[Devin Joseph]

And she's just like, I'm not paying for this. I didn't eat it.

[Kate Lindsay]

Right. That I wanted.

[Manny Fadal]

Then you can just decline if that. Like one time someone Venmo requested me the wrong amount and I just declined it.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

And then I sent them the correct.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Lily Chu]

I thought.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. And then that was the end.

[Noah Friedman]

How much difference?

[Manny Fadal]

It was like 20 something bucks, I think. Like it was a big group dinner.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

And we didn't do it evenly. We like had to look at the receipt.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. There's clearly like, there was like, there's something that happened. There's something, some misunderstanding between her and I that just like lives on in this app.

[Noah Friedman]

And you don't see this person?

[Kate Lindsay]

No.

[Beth Pinsker]

No.

[Devin Joseph]

You haven't seen them since then?

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice]

No.

[Devin Joseph]

Okay.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, I believe they moved. They fled.

[Manny Fadal]

They're not in New York anymore.

[Kate Lindsay]

They fled the state once.

[Noah Friedman]

Fugitive sounds right.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

They're on a. Okay. After the break, what is the minimum amount you should actually Venmo somebody for.

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[Cal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of earsay, the Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with Divergent author Veronica Roth to talk about her sprawling new novel, Seek the Traitor's Son. It's a sci fi fantasy epic about two protagonists on opposite sides of a war and a prophecy neither of them wanted.

[Veronica Roth]

My first book was Divergent, and when that came out, like, because it was so popular, I think it attracted, like, mostly positivity, but the negativity I sucked in like a sponge. And I think it was, like, critiques of things I liked when I was, like, you know, I was 23 and I wrote this book, and it had all my, like, dorky little cheesy or maybe unrealistic loves in it. And I started to feel a lot of shame about those things. And so for the rest of my career, I steered away from those little things that, like, make you feel pleasure when you read. But I also was, like, saying no to these parts of myself that I then was like, screw it.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

So that's this book.

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[Kate Lindsay]

I feel like I don't know the idea, because if I requested this from her and she's like, I don't want to pay that I didn't eat the oysters or whatever. Neither did I. But then I feel like, pre Venmo, you would say that.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

But there's something same with, like, how what Partiful has done and, like, maybe attending. It's like there's now this etiquette where it's like, I just won't say anything, and that's fine. And so I wanted to, like, talk about the ways that we think Venmo and, like, money being so digital has maybe changed our relationship with money. Like, do we remember how we dealt with money pre Venmo? Like, were we. Because I'm curious if people who felt a certain stinginess with money Pre Venmo feel differently with. I don't know, because it's not physical.

[Manny Fadal]

Pre Venmo, there was definitely a lot more. You were paying for our own thing, but at the restaurant.

[Lily Chu]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Like, split.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

I got the burger, the fries, and the beer. Put that on my. Put that on a separate check and I'll pay for it.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

And then not too long before that, we just. I wasn't paying for anything because I was like, yeah. In high school or child.

[Veronica Roth]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

So we. We kind of grew up in a world where you could easily pay people back for stuff.

[Kate Lindsay]

I'm realizing, though, this was still a bit of an issue even because. Because I was in college the first year at least pre Venmo, and we did have an issue with someone who we would. Whenever we would order like Chinese food or pizza, this was alike. This was still like a cash economy. And. And so it was like everyone threw in cash. And this one person always would reach for the food and go, I don't have cash, but I'll pay you back. And then never. Never to be heard from again.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Veronica Roth]

And.

[Kate Lindsay]

And it became like a routine thing. And I remember you were forced to in person. Not me, of course someone else was like. Because I think she suggested ordering food or something. And basically someone had to be like, you need to pay this time. Like you have not paid for any

[Manny Fadal]

of it or you're not touching it.

[Kate Lindsay]

Right, Right. And so it was awkward. But I won't say it doesn't seem like Venmo solved that awkwardness. It's just made us be able to be more avoidant.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

Yes.

[Devin Joseph]

Because I feel like there were a few restaurants I remember in high school, like back half of high school when you could start driving. So you'd go to restaurants by yourself with your friends. One place we'd go, Applebee's, they would have like half price appetizers after like 10 or 11 o'.

[Noah Friedman]

Clock.

[Devin Joseph]

And they would not do separate checks there. So you had to have cash. And I remember there were always these like one or two friends who they would always not give enough money. Cause you'd be like, you owe this much, you owe this much, you owe this much. And then you count the money and be like, we're short. And it'd be like this thing you'd have to go through at the restaurant. But in the moment they'd be like, okay, we still need three more dollars.

[Manny Fadal]

Yes.

[Devin Joseph]

And it's like, it was annoying.

[Manny Fadal]

And in high school, you might have to leave the premises to go get the $3.

[Devin Joseph]

But it was like, we are not leaving here until we figure out how much, you know, we owe.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Because we have to hand the money to the person before we walk out.

[Manny Fadal]

Yep. Settling up was a. You had to do a feeling of

[Kate Lindsay]

being like, whose math is wrong?

[Devin Joseph]

Yes.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Who gave the 10?

[Paramount Plus Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Because then some. Yeah. Sometimes you pay for more your share. So in many ways, like, I understand

[Manny Fadal]

we're really dating ourselves.

[Kate Lindsay]

I know, I know. I understand the, like, what the problem these apps are trying to solve for. But there's also. So before we sat down to record, we collected a bunch of other questions because obviously we have Our own predicaments. But I was curious to hear what other people had. And you also spoke to some etiquette and financial experts about things like venue etiquette and best practices. And I guess, like, a broad question I want to start with is, like, I didn't even think about this, but, like, are there some Venmo best practices that, like, we should all just be doing no matter what? Like. Like, I don't. I don't know necessarily what that would be. I mean.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. It seems like the introduction of Venmo and Venmo, like, apps.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Have created, like, somewhat new behaviors in us. Yeah, exactly. Where, like, before Venmo, it was, you know, it was a team game at. At the dinner table, trying to figure out who owes what and putting up the. The correct amount of cash. And now that Venmo is here, it's usually one person's putting down and. And then Venmoing everyone else. But depending on who the person is, the check is split evenly or they're really looking at the receipt. Or some people don't mind if you. If they just cover it, and they don't really mind when they get paid back.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Some people are doing it, like, on the Uber ride home.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

And so, yeah, it. It's created these, like, kind of new behaviors out of us, I think.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. I. So I know one of the questions we had is, is there, like, a minimum amount that you're like, at what point is it like. All right. Because I think sometimes if I'm buying someone a coffee, I'm not gonna Venmo them for it, but then sometimes you get hit with the coffee Venmo, and it's a little bit like. So I'm curious if anyone you spoke to had some thoughts about that.

[Paramount Plus Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So I talked to someone who writes about etiquette for a living.

[Lizzie Post]

My name is Lizzie Post, and I am a co president at the Emily Post Institute, and I am also Emily great great granddaughter.

[Devin Joseph]

You guys notice Emily Post's situation?

[Kate Lindsay]

Is this just like an etiquette person? Yeah, like a famous old, old school. I like this idea of, like, I am the descendant of the politest person in the world.

[Devin Joseph]

And I asked her, what is the minimum amount you should be Venmo requesting someone for?

[Lizzie Post]

I feel like, for me, and I try to keep my ranges on the lower side because I just think it's. It's silly to walk around assuming that everybody operates in spaces of like, 50 and $100, but. Or where $25 wouldn't make a Big deal to them. You know, Be a big deal to them. And so I would say $10 or less starts to be like, I could let that slide. But you know, there are some people for whom that might not be slidable. And given gas prices and grocery prices, which are such necessities in our lives these days, I feel like it's. It's worth respecting it. But you're right. If someone was like, hey, like, if my sister sent me a venmo Request for $2 to pay. Pay her back for the coffee she bought me or something. You can't even get a coffee for $2.

[Devin Joseph]

I don't know what I'm saying.

[Kate Lindsay]

But like, that's maybe water. Okay. Love comrade there.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Okay. Well, I like that. Again, this is similar to past episodes where I've been on where it's like. Well, I like when they're agreeing with me. So.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, I think 10 hours of my

[Noah Friedman]

10 was what I was thinking. I was like, single digits. You're wasting everyone's time.

[Paramount Plus Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Kate Lindsay]

Right. Y them. Like, you know how, like some places won't let you pay with a credit card below a certain amount? I know that doesn't apply to this, but that's what it feels like too small to like involve this institution in.

[Manny Fadal]

I also feel like very seldom am I hanging out with someone for whom I wouldn't just exactly buy a coffee or a beer or whatever.

[Noah Friedman]

Because that's basically one beer.

[Devin Joseph]

Exactly.

[Noah Friedman]

I'll either see you again and you get me that time, or if it's every time I'm seeing you, I'm buying you one beer and never getting one back then.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

It's probably not going to happen that many more times.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

But I've definitely been hit with like a. It was a six dollar Venmo request for like a Tecate at a. At a bar once.

[Veronica Roth]

No.

[Manny Fadal]

And I was like, okay, yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Let me say this to know about you.

[Veronica Roth]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

I didn't.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

No, no, no.

[Manny Fadal]

I felt like I couldn't. I know that the person too.

[Noah Friedman]

Well, yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Then that would become like, oh, you're saying no when you. I do technically owe him six dollars.

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice 3]

Right.

[Kate Lindsay]

But it's.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

It'.

[Lizzie Post]

Wrong.

[Devin Joseph]

It's just. It's frowned upon.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And like, I don't. Like, I will give someone. If someone covers me for something that's like five or six bucks, I'll send them five or six bucks.

[Manny Fadal]

And you're just talking about getting requested.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, I would never request it myself. It's one thing if you want to go out of your way, and it's less than 10 hours to send me the money. I don't need it.

[Manny Fadal]

Right.

[Odoo Ad Voice]

Cool.

[Devin Joseph]

I'm not gonna reject it.

[Kate Lindsay]

It's like a gesture.

[Devin Joseph]

Exactly.

[Noah Friedman]

That's fair.

[Kate Lindsay]

You're like, do you think I'm poor?

[Paramount Plus Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

Send it back to them. That was a gift.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, that was a gift.

[Devin Joseph]

How dare you? But I' not going in the app to say, you know, $4 for a water kind of.

[Kate Lindsay]

Speaking of, the idea of, like, I don't want. It feels like if the. If the interaction's too small or if the amount of money is too small, it's not worth the mechanisms. I also think about that kind of. In terms of.

[Lily Chu]

Because.

[Kate Lindsay]

So Venmo is basically like, you're like an escrow or whatever. I'm trying to say that word.

[Devin Joseph]

Old escrow.

[Noah Friedman]

Escrow, Escrow, Escrow.

[Kate Lindsay]

Escape, escrow.

[Manny Fadal]

And say it proudly and escrow. And I'm proud.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And.

[Kate Lindsay]

And so I'll usually let it, like, pile up in there a little bit.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, how much money are you getting?

[Kate Lindsay]

Well, nothing crazy. Like, I, you know. You know, obviously, like, rent or something. I put right back, like, into my. Into the account. But I don't know, like, you know, a few group dinners and whatever, and then I'll be like. And this is more like now I'm like mental illness, because I'm just like, oh, I can't do it if I'm a. If I'm still expecting money. It's like, I want to have all of it.

[Devin Joseph]

You want it all at once.

[Kate Lindsay]

And then I want to move it. But I heard

[Lizzie Post]

through.

[Kate Lindsay]

I don't know. It's like, through the grapevine. I can't remember who to attribute this

[Manny Fadal]

to, but the grapevine.

[Kate Lindsay]

If you're leaving, you shouldn't be leaving money in. In your Venmo account because they're doing something with it.

[Manny Fadal]

I guess it's not really protected is what people are worried about.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. But, like, what are they. It seems like perhaps you did speak to someone about that. Yes, I did.

[Noah Friedman]

Okay.

[Kate Lindsay]

I'm curious, like, because that is just a question I've always thought about when I'm letting it kind of. You know, I never let it get

[Manny Fadal]

more than, like, oh, I'm kind of gross with it.

[Kate Lindsay]

What?

[Manny Fadal]

It goes up.

[Devin Joseph]

You got hundreds.

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice 3]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

I remember after the baby shower, everyone paid us back. I just left that in there until I depleted.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yes.

[Manny Fadal]

That was, like, over $1,000.

[Kate Lindsay]

Because then it's like free money when you. Someone requests you and it's like, oh, do you want to take it right out of your. Your thing? And it's like, well, yeah, I. That was free then.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, I do get that.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. But I'm getting. I'm getting the vibe that perhaps I'm incorrect in this belief.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. So I reached out to Beth, who is a financial planner, and asked her this question.

[Beth Pinsker]

I am Beth Pinsker. I am a columnist at MarketWatch. I'm a certified financial planner. The thing about leaving money in Venmo is one. Is it protected? Is it FDIC insured? Can somebody access it? Do you have consumer protections on it? If it's in a bank, nothing bad can happen to that money. And you're only liable for $50 worth of fraud ever, if any. Like, if you can prove that there's fraud, you're not going to be responsible for it. The second thing is it's not going to earn any interest. That's a significant balance. You're losing money as it sits there, and you don't want to do that. I would say best practices go back to the old thing. The thing I tell my kids, number one, is do not pay for things on your credit card or Venmo or whatever payment method you're going to choose and collect cash from your friends and think that that's a good idea. You have the cash from them and you've paid the bill. What happens is that that cash disappears between the time that you get it and the bill gets due. And so when. When it comes time to pay for that hundred dollars, you know that you fronted everybody on your credit card, you don't have it anymore, and then you're in debt, and it's. It's just. It's a slippery slope and a bad way to go about doing things. So I'm like, pay your portion of it. People in payment systems at restaurants and stores and whatever are sophisticated enough now to split the bill. You can pay for your own share, even put a tip on right there with your card, swipe, tap whatever you need to do, and don't accumulate the balance of everybody else.

[Kate Lindsay]

Very interesting sense, but I will say, yes, restaurants have the capability, but they

[Manny Fadal]

don't like to do it.

[Kate Lindsay]

They make it very clear that they do not want to do it. And I don't. I'm a people pleaser.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, same.

[Manny Fadal]

Plus there's. It's the restaurant, you know, the awkwardness of them not wanting to do it, but also the. The case that, you know, everyone has these credit cards where they get all this cash Back everyone, they're now too many people want to pay for the whole thing and go through the Venmo process because they get.

[Devin Joseph]

And that's what I asked. And she was saying, yeah, you think about it. But then you're spending that money. So you know, I put down $500. You guys gimme that money. But I'm not thinking that $500 goes

[Manny Fadal]

to pay for the credit card bill. Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And in your mind, you're not putting that money aside. You're thinking, oh, I just got 500. Now it's like, no, no, you didn't.

[Kate Lindsay]

And here's the question. If you are always paying, putting your card down and getting miles and then you go on vacation, do they have to come with you? All your friends?

[Noah Friedman]

It seems only right.

[Devin Joseph]

You have to bring them.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

At least one of them.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, yeah. For, for covering your mileage.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. Like they, they really contributed to it at the Small plates natural wine restaurant.

[Devin Joseph]

So, yeah. Don't leave your money in your Venmo account because it's not protected.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

So something does that reason Venmo went underwater.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, exactly. You wouldn't get your money.

[Veronica Roth]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

It's not insured.

[Kate Lindsay]

And like when. Wow. Air stopped just doing. In the middle of more maybe Spirit Airlines, you're stranded.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

You just like, like, because they can do that. They can just stop being an airline. And I forget that Venmo can just stop being Venmo.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. And then your money's poof. Gone. After the break, we answer some listener questions.

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice 3]

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[Cal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with Lily Chu, the author of the Audible original romantic comedy Just Kiss Already. It's a story about a forensic anthropologist who secretly writes mystery novels, an actress who adapts his book into a film, and what happens when a meme and a media tour collide with a slow burn romance. It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Hsu, and it is an absolute blast.

[Lily Chu]

When you actually hear the performance, you realize that other people are taking your words and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like, the cat in the corner is black. In my head it's the cat in the corner is black. Not the dog, not the gerbil. But someone else might say it, the cat in the corner is black. That's always fascinating to me how they just bring in all these different nuances and really make it fun and interesting and distinctive.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Lindsay]

Well, I know that you guys also collected some anecdotes or stories from listeners. I'm curious what issues they've run into with this.

[Devin Joseph]

All right, so this first one is about a listener talking about their friend who always happens to venmo them the wrong amount of money.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

I have been friends with one of my closest friends for 13 years now, and the entire time I've known her is like one of been one of the richest people I know. Like, her parents are multimillionaires. Like, she's currently buying an apartment in New York that's like a million dollars and her parents are giving her like $700,000 in cash. She's always wearing like designer. She's in Europe five times a year. But she has this very frustrating trait that any single time we go out to dinner together and you put your card down, she venmoes you the wrong amount. Like, and it's not like, oh, like she owes me $40 and she's lending me 20. It's like she owes me $40 and she's venmoing me $36, which is just close enough where you're like, maybe she's extremely bad at math but this is always the case. Like other friends of mine have voiced how she never pays them back the right amount, but it's never an amount that's like worth pressing over. But I realize this. It's like always the richest person, you know who's like the stingiest was venmoing you back. And like, maybe this is just like not even a question of money and more of a question of confrontation, but if you're in a situation where you've known someone for 13 years and every single time they venmoed you for 13 years, they venmo you slightly less than you are owed. Like, do you say something or are you just in too deep and have to accept the fact that this person is just going to slight you, even though they're literally a multimillionaire and you come from very little money and like are in so much student loan debt versus this person who like is always in $500 jeans.

[Manny Fadal]

Great question. My initial reaction is that maybe this person is looking at what they purchased on the receipt, but not including tax and tips.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, that was gonna be my thing is like I think gotta at the table because I think something we. Okay, well, so I have lots of thoughts about this. First off, I think it's pretty implicit in my friend group. We're not necessarily saying this, but the most securely employed person because we all work in somewhat creative media fields, so that's never all of us at once. The most securely employed person puts down their card. We don't like voice.

[Manny Fadal]

It's interesting, interesting.

[Kate Lindsay]

But like, or like there's like a few of us and we'll kind of alternate. Like we don't want to make someone be the responsible every single time. But it's like we're not going to ask the person who like was laid off a few months ago and is job hunting to put it on their card just because it's just like, yeah, you don't want to shoulder it. So it's interesting. Like that that is not her this rich friend's impulse. But I do think it speaks to this phenomenon of the more money you have, the people tend to be scroogier with it. There's a scarcity mindset that like weirdly seems to increase when you have more. And I know and I don't want to step on some research you might have done, but I know that like when you look at like charitable giving, people from lower income households tend to give more in proportion to their own income than a rich person does. And there's A sort of sneakiness to, I guess, capitalism that just makes you, even when you have money, you just become more fearful of losing it.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. Beth had a interesting take on this.

[Manny Fadal]

Okay.

[Beth Pinsker]

I think it's a matter of that mental accounting that's going on. If you are always coming at it at a place from deficit, a $20 deficit isn't going to matter to you, is going to make no difference. If you have a $20 deficit or a $40 deficit, you're still, it's a deficit to you. And so you, you sort of lose sense of the scale. If you are in an abundance situation, you know how much you have and you want to hold on to that abundance and so you're a lot more careful about it. Or maybe, you know, they got that way. Not the people who are living off their parents, but if they have a nice job, they got that way because they were careful and smart about things. And you, when you're careful and smart about things, you know, you pay what things cost, you don't pay more. And if somebody owes you money, you get it back from them. You're just a responsible. It's just, there's no negativity to it. It's just a responsible thing to do.

[Kate Lindsay]

I think there's negativity, yeah, that, I mean, tracks, but I mean quite literally, I'm like, at what cost? Because I'm. It's hard for me to believe in the instance of the sort of. The listener who called in like, it's hard for me to not think of her friend as a certain type of person because of this. But the one thing that makes it, that still snags for me is what she pointed out of like, it's not wildly off, it's like a little bit off.

[Manny Fadal]

Which means there's some calculation going.

[Kate Lindsay]

I think there's some calculation going wrong. And I think the way to try to address that is like at the table, figure out who owes what.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

And like, you know, it's like we all need to agree on what we all owe.

[Noah Friedman]

Or you've got to request.

[Devin Joseph]

You've got to request.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

Yes.

[Noah Friedman]

You have to actually have a conversation with them, which everyone doesn't want to have. It seems like just beat them to the punch and request it because they're not going to dispute that, presumably if it's only that four dollar difference.

[Kate Lindsay]

And if they do, at the very least you can hear the math. Like, oh, yeah, maybe they'll have to explain them.

[Noah Friedman]

Maybe, maybe they've been right the whole time.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, we're Gonna get a call from her. I'm a multi millionaire and my friend,

[Manny Fadal]

there was only a verbal agreement of how much the person owed.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

Right.

[Manny Fadal]

It wasn't that they were declining a request and then sending a new.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, they were just venmoing the wrong amount.

[Noah Friedman]

We go out and then a couple hours later you $36 instead of 40. That's what's happening.

[Manny Fadal]

I see.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. But over time it adds up.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

And I think it's, you know, there's a pride thing too with it. Right. Which is why I think people who don't have that much money often end up in these situations.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. I didn't think that is true.

[Devin Joseph]

It's because it's like they don't want to be looking like they're begging for a $4 difference. But you know, $4 12 times a year starts to add up.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

Whereas this person, this money doesn't mean anything to her. She's got $500.

[Noah Friedman]

They're not thinking about it either way.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah. It's like, oh, I'm sorry. 36, 40. It's all the same to me.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. What should the listener do?

[Kate Lindsay]

Right. I don't know. I think requests.

[Manny Fadal]

I think requests

[Devin Joseph]

requested ahead of time.

[Manny Fadal]

Then it could. Then you'll see how they respond to that. Will they decline?

[Noah Friedman]

If they seem to quibble with that, then call back. There's something going on.

[Manny Fadal]

It's time for a conversation like that'll

[Kate Lindsay]

at least force the conversation.

[Devin Joseph]

Yes.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'll know. Good luck.

[Manny Fadal]

Don't know.

[Cal Penn]

Don't.

[Manny Fadal]

My job.

[Veronica Roth]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

I'm on the podcast.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah. We actually R1 doesn't do advice, so

[Noah Friedman]

I don't know why you emailed us this,

[Kate Lindsay]

but I mean my other way of solving it and I think this is a larger issue of mine that I believe the next question we'll get into. It's like just split the bill. Everyone owes the same. But I sense perhaps for some people it's not that easy.

[Devin Joseph]

So this is an email that we got. The listener wants to remain anonymous. So we had somebody record a voicemail.

[Kate Lindsay]

Oh, like an actor's portrayal.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

Okay, here's a money etiquette situation my wife and I were in a few summers ago. A friend of ours set up a birthday vacation for his wife, invited a large friend group to go to an all inclusive in Aruba. For context, my wife and I have a pretty standard middle class income. So the vacation was a big financial decision for us. Another important detail is this particular friend group is one that has A lot more disposable income than we do compared to us high rollers, if you will. At some point, the ladies of the group decided we should go off the resort to a fancy restaurant for the host's birthday celebration. My wife and I brought like $200 cash, thinking we'd eat light and help cover the cost of the birthday girls meal at dinner. The couples that we didn't know well quickly started spending rather extravagantly, ordering exotic appetizers and really expensive cocktails. The restaurant had Azul tequila on the menu, $50 per drink. And others started ordering this too. My wife and I don't drink much and when we do, it certainly isn't $50 per shot kind of stuff. So we stuck with soft drinks. Then the bill came. It was thousands of dollars. There were 15 plus tequilas alone, plus other spirits. One of the couples we don't know tells everyone we're going to split the check evenly. No one else seemed to mind. Obviously my wife and I needed to have a sidebar since we were a few hundred dollars short of what was being asked. After stalling as much as we could, waiting for someone else to say something, my wife spoke up and said we only ordered $70 worth of food. We're happy to contribute to the tip and cover a little more, but we didn't bring near enough cash to cover $50 drinks. This did not go over well with the two couples we didn't know and definitely changed the mood with them for

[Cal Penn]

the rest of the trip.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

While I would not change how we handled this situation, I'm wondering what's the etiquette in this situation. I can't really imagine a solution that isn't at least as awkward as what we did. Thanks for reading my short story and thanks for the hours of edutainment you provide, Mitch.

[Kate Lindsay]

Well, immediately that story makes me feel like a dick from my earlier suggestion, which is just split the bill. Yeah, but I think, I think it's a scale.

[Noah Friedman]

It's a scale thing. I think it's a scale. This is extreme. This is extreme.

[Manny Fadal]

This is an egregious situation because I

[Kate Lindsay]

think if you are just let's just split the bill, people. Which I do think in most cases is the best way to go.

[Noah Friedman]

I agree.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yes, you do have to be thoughtful of if that. Because there are times where it doesn't make sense. Because for me, I don't like when we go. Because everywhere you go out to dinner isn't. At least in like Brooklyn you're getting. It's like we do things a little differently. We do share plates and wine and, like. And so you need to split it, even if, like. Like, I don't really like seafood, so I didn't have any of, like, the scallops or whatever. I don't care. I'm not gonna go like scallop for scallop with someone when it comes to breaking it down. Like, just sp it. And I find the people who really unnecessarily itemize their venmos to be not in the spirit of friendship, which is that, like, maybe I didn't eat the scallops this time, but, like, maybe next time I'll order, like, I don't know, pork, and you don't eat pork. And, like, everyone has to be slighted at every meal. No, but just, you know, that it'll all even out because we will continue to get dinner together. And I. Even though technically is right, feels really. It just ruins the vibe at the end of the meal to suddenly be like, all right, I had a little bit of this thing, but I. The. The idea of accidentally covering even a little bit of your bite disgusts me, and so I'm itemizing the bill. It's like, I don't like that, but this is crazy.

[Manny Fadal]

I can understand their concern, because of course it does. If it does suck to be the person that has to, like, put the.

[Cal Penn]

The.

[Manny Fadal]

The bad mood on the table, of course, this isn't such an egregious case. I think they did the right thing to speak up. I'm normally of the mind of, like, I'm okay if I have to pay 15, $20 more than I should be paying. If means we can just knock this out right here and there. It's basically a convenience test.

[Kate Lindsay]

Exactly.

[Manny Fadal]

Now, maybe that's also easy for me to say because I'm ordering a bunch of drinks and stuff, and, like, I'm probably not the one that's. You're getting a discount. If you think about it it certain ways, though, this. But this specific issue is so egregious. It's like, okay, I'm. I'm doing the same thing as them in this situation.

[Devin Joseph]

Oh, you speaking up for sure.

[Manny Fadal]

Like you were saying, it does depend on if everyone's sharing plates. It doesn't sound like they were. You get your own thing.

[Noah Friedman]

And like, like they said, it's like, all right, they had $70 of food.

[Devin Joseph]

Y.

[Noah Friedman]

They brought $200 in.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

So that's already obviously way more than.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah, they were.

[Noah Friedman]

It sounds like they were willing to part with that yeah, yeah. We're talking at such extreme scale here that no one could have accounted for this.

[Manny Fadal]

Now the friends who felt like, you know, they dampened the situation. Those are bad people.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah. That's.

[Manny Fadal]

Don't make someone feel bad and just

[Devin Joseph]

like not aware of just sort of like not everyone's fucking billionaires.

[Noah Friedman]

That's really what it is.

[Kate Lindsay]

Privately shit talk it like you don't have to love it.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

I do wonder what they did to make it. Make them like if the vibe were just. Was just different or if they were like, oh we're. I also think itemizing the like if they made it. So I'm the one in the story.

[Devin Joseph]

As they said they've been doing a lot of drinking dough too. So they probably by the end of the dinner we're not in the right mindset to be reasonable.

[Kate Lindsay]

I think often why I'm like just split the bill. We're all just like, we're all fine. Like now I have to do bring out the calculator app.

[Devin Joseph]

I will say too, as someone who doesn't drink, I think you guys are. When we go out like, you are always like, well Devin didn't drink so he shit the blah blah, blah. And I'm usually just like, let's just split it.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

But it is annoying if people are going out and getting a bunch of drinks because drinks are expensive.

[Manny Fadal]

Very expensive.

[Devin Joseph]

Like the food thing is one cocktail

[Manny Fadal]

might be the cost of drinking.

[Devin Joseph]

We can all. If just because you didn't eat something you had the opportunity to and you decided not to. It's like, well, I'm not going to drink your drink.

[Beth Pinsker]

Drink.

[Devin Joseph]

You know.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah. Even you know, these are 50 drinks. Yeah. But 20 cocktails.

[Devin Joseph]

Yep. It starts we go out.

[Noah Friedman]

Me and Manny both have three cocktails each.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

That's more. That's more the bill than any food we're getting easily.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

So yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Like I think the. The default of just all splitting it like you have to. You have to. It needs to be with within the margins of like everyone about did the same.

[Manny Fadal]

Exactly.

[Kate Lindsay]

Thing And I don't know the idea of going to this just ordering that really expensive alcohol without like saying something without being like are we cool if we get this? And then the weird reaction.

[Manny Fadal]

I wonder if they. You know, I imagine these people are always splitting the bill because it sounds like they're really well off.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

I wonder if they didn't even notice that the couple in question weren't really probably a little bit stuff or drinking

[Kate Lindsay]

the drinks and then maybe by the time, more pessimistic. I was like. I think they were all like. I think you were like, oh, they weren't the same after this. I actually think this is them being like. They were always like, yeah, like them doing this to you is the beginning of them being like this. They changed. It's not. Yeah, whatever. I don't know them.

[Devin Joseph]

I did ask Lizzie how she would approach the situation.

[Lizzie Post]

Firstly, I think they're great for speaking up. They are also then in the situation where they're dealing with people who've had 15 shots of expensive tequila.

[Odoo Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Lizzie Post]

So those people probably aren't in their right mind when they're assessing the situation. I keep saying, like, stay strong. Know confidently that you. It is okay for you to have spoken up in this situation that no matter how the. We can't control other people's behavior and how they react. But letting them know that, listen, we weren't a part of the tequila. And I think that this is terrible sample language right now. But, you know, we didn't order any of the tequilas, so we're happy to chip in on the rest of the bill, but we'd like to, you know, not chip in on that or we won't be chipping in on that. It's not like you're asking these people for the permission. You know what I mean?

[Devin Joseph]

That's a really great point. I think a lot of people do ask for permission and say, can we. Saying, hey, we are here is what we are going to contribute is.

[Lizzie Post]

Yes.

[Devin Joseph]

Quite a shift.

[Lizzie Post]

It's a power move for sure, but I think it's an important power move on this one given the extravagance of the bill.

[Boost Mobile Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Manny Fadal]

There's no non awkward way out of that situation. But they chose, I think, the least awkward way because it'd have been terrible if they put their visa down and then deal with it later. Was like, hey, we're gonna need some money back and contribute all this.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

And like, there's no actually good argument against it.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah, exactly.

[Noah Friedman]

If you're one of the drinking side, you're mad that they're not paying for, like.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

You can't really argue it with any logic aside from, like, well, we should just all share.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

We.

[Noah Friedman]

You know, especially when it wasn't discussed.

[Manny Fadal]

Exactly.

[Noah Friedman]

So.

[Devin Joseph]

And Lizzie brought that up, as she said, if you're going to be in big group situations, it's awkward to talk about it at the end, but, like, talk about it in the beginning, it's going to be a little bit awkward. But it's going to be less awkward once you all spent the money. Like, hey, are we all going to split or we're going to share?

[Noah Friedman]

What are we going to do?

[Manny Fadal]

Because if we're going to. Yeah, exactly. It's going to change my order.

[Noah Friedman]

Something very vague at the beginning, like, okay, we're going to split this. Then someone's ordering something crazy.

[Listener (Anonymous)]

Yep.

[Noah Friedman]

And then even if you're the one outside of it, you could be like, oh, I don't like, yes, this is a little much. Like, maybe we go for the custom something else. Yeah, yeah, I've heard the Casamigos is excellent.

[Kate Lindsay]

Well, as always, I like to bring things back to me, which is. You'll remember that I began this episode with my own predicament, which I think I would. I think. And maybe not to this extreme in terms of it being a decade long simmering, unanswered question, but, you know, this idea of like. Like, what if someone isn't paying you back on Venmo? Like, when. When do you do you give it up? Since I've done so much emotional labor with this over the 10 years, I outsourced this to you, and I said, please find out what I should do about this person or the idea of someone who not paying you back over Venmo. I'm curious what you found.

[Lizzie Post]

I mean, at some point, I think she could clear it, but I do think that's a good notice to, like, clear things more quickly. Either bump that request up a second time within a week, and if you don't get anything back, you know, by the following week, then just clear, like, cancel the request if you don't care about getting the money back. You know what I mean?

[Devin Joseph]

Okay. Yeah, we're gonna try to convince her to cancel it on the recording as we're.

[Lizzie Post]

Do it. Oh, do it. Do it. Do it. Be brave. Be brave, girl. Be brave.

[Kate Lindsay]

Girl power. She kind of dragged me. She's like, maybe a week.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Okay, so I have. Have emotionally adjusted to this. That I will be canceling.

[Manny Fadal]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Live on the pod. So I'm opening it up now. Can you count me down, Noah?

[Noah Friedman]

Yes. Ready? 5, 4, 3, 2. Cancel.

[Kate Lindsay]

It's like I'm getting the.

[Noah Friedman]

It's canceled.

[Kate Lindsay]

I can't. I got the.

[Noah Friedman]

You can't take a screenshot.

[Kate Lindsay]

Wait. And then I'll blur the name or the Instagram. And my husband requested me for WI fi underneath.

[Starbucks Ad Voice 2]

Wow.

[Manny Fadal]

So how do you feel?

[Kate Lindsay]

Lighter.

[Manny Fadal]

Does it feel like a weight?

[Kate Lindsay]

I wonder what she's gonna think when she opens her. Oh my God. All right, we'll see. We'll see if.

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah, you're gonna have to do an update.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

If she does send you the money

[Manny Fadal]

afterwards, by the time this comes out.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, technically I should tell her she owes me. What is it, 24?

[Devin Joseph]

Yeah.

[Kate Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

Or you need to ask, you know, the connecting friend between you. Like, did.

[Manny Fadal]

Did she say anything about this?

[Kate Lindsay]

Talk about me ever? Because I been doing a lot of talking about her.

[Noah Friedman]

Check out this episode. Yeah.

[Devin Joseph]

So that was our collaboration with icymi Slate's Internet culture podcast hosted by the one and only Kate Lindsay. Make sure you check it out. We're going to link to it in our show notes. Today's episode was edited by Vic Whitley Barry. No such thing as production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producer producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Harikudur. The show is created by Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman and me, Devin Joseph. Our guests this week were Lizzie Post, who co hosts the awesome Etiquette podcast in the Emily Post Wedding Stories podcast, and Beth Pinsker. Check out her book My Mother's Money wherever you get books. If you have questions, critiques, email us@mannynella devonmail.com Tell your friends about about us. We'll be back soon.

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[Cal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Beth Pinsker]

What?

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[Manny Fadal]

He's all always liked a little drama,

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[Devin Joseph]

Now I will control an empire Original

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[Kate Lindsay]

Just make sure we protect each other

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[Kate Lindsay]

Welcome to the history books.

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[Kate Lindsay]

Guaranteed human.