Once We Made Uncharted with Allan Ungar | Episode 36

Summary

Podcast Summary: Once We Were Spacemen

Episode 36 – Once We Made Uncharted with Allan Ungar

Hosts: Nathan Fillion & Alan Tudyk
Guest: Allan Ungar
Release Date: July 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the creative journey of filmmaker Allan Ungar, known for directing the acclaimed Uncharted fan film starring Nathan Fillion. Fillion and Tudyk reminisce about their collaboration, explore the intersections of fan culture, risk-taking, and industry gatekeeping, and share stories about forging an unconventional path in film. Allan Ungar provides insights into the hustle, tenacity, and serendipity required to break through, while all three reflect with humor and candidness on their experiences as creatives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins: Meeting and Making Uncharted

• Serendipitous Networking:
  Ungar details meeting his first film's financer at a party hosted by a known con artist—a chance encounter that led to his debut as a director ([00:00], [14:38]).

  "Because of a guy I met in Toronto who turned out to be a con artist, I ended up at a house party where I met this guy who financed my first film." — Allan Ungar [14:39]

• The Fan Film Genesis:
  The Uncharted fan film began with a pitch over vegan pad Thai and a heartfelt argument that “nobody should attempt this without Nathan Fillion” ([04:22], [04:27]).
• Hollywood’s Resistance to Fan-Driven Casting:
  Ungar describes industry skepticism about casting Fillion as Nathan Drake, underscoring art vs. commerce tension in Hollywood ([06:43], [08:29]).
• Personal Risk and Timing:
  After a failed project, Ungar used a Director’s Guild settlement to self-fund Uncharted, capitalizing on a narrow window when Fillion was between pilots ([09:13], [10:17]).

  “People don’t care why something fails. They care about what succeeds. I need to come up with something fast to change this narrative.” — Allan Ungar [09:38]

Navigating a Creative Career

• The Canadian Indie Scene:
  Ungar grew up around film, with his mother supplying walkies and cell phones on sets, fostering early industry exposure in Toronto ([12:17]).
• Early Ambition and ‘Making Your Own Luck’:
  Both Ungar and Fillion reflect on hustling in their twenties, agreeing there’s no preset path to creative success—just relentless pursuit ([13:22], [16:43]).
• Role of Mentors and Friends:
  Relationships like Ungar's with producer Alex played a pivotal role in breaking in:

  “Alex and I actually came up together. I got him his first producing credit. He got me my first directing credit.” — Allan Ungar [06:18]

• Risk Appetite and Proving Yourself:
  “As we get older, of course, we don’t roll the dice as much... I have nothing to lose... I’m not even 30 yet. I put the money up myself.” — Allan Ungar [25:36]
  The group discusses how, even after initial success, the need to prove oneself to gatekeepers persists ([46:03]).

Uncharted: From Idea to Phenomenon

• Teasing the Release:
  Uncharted’s launch was teased via clever social media stunts, including posting images of Drake the rapper with Uncharted taglines ([23:41]-[24:09]).
• Fan Response and Cultural Impact:
  The fan film's authenticity—down to aspect ratio shifts emulating the game—sparked viral internet reactions:

  “When you do that in the Uncharted film, all those kids doing reaction videos light up like a Christmas tree because they know the feeling.” — Nathan Fillion [33:07]

• Industry Ripple Effects:
  The fan film’s popularity spurred Sony to accelerate the official Uncharted movie's timeline and reinvigorated interest in the IP ([26:58], [27:40]).

Career Impact and Moving Forward

• Industry Recognition and Open Doors:
  Uncharted became Ungar’s “business card,” helping him sign with agents and take meetings previously unavailable ([38:21]) and opening opportunities to direct Bandit and work with Josh Duhamel ([40:09], [44:00]).
• Making Films During COVID:
  Undeterred by the pandemic, Ungar shot Bandit in Georgia, doubling for Canada, against logistical and masked communication challenges ([41:49], [42:56]).

Philosophy and Advice: Stamina, Patience, and Persistence

• The Rule of Stamina:
  Ungar’s key advice:

  “Stamina… Patience and stamina. That’s what I would tell people.” — Allan Ungar [49:43]

• Tudyk’s Validation:
  Tudyk echoes the importance of staying in the game, referencing Brendan Fraser’s comeback as an example of career longevity ([49:45]-[51:07]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Risk and the Myth of a Sure Path:
  “If you do A, B, and C, you will not end up being a writer, producer, director. You have to forge your own path.” — Nathan Fillion [16:49]
• Fillion recalling fan crew surprise:
  “Some Uncharted fans [on the crew] going, oh, my God, is this happening? They became children. It was wonderful.” [24:31]
• On Stunt Community Respect:
  “A lot of these guys deserve Oscars. Right. And so I’ve always had an affinity for that community, actually.” — Allan Ungar [30:21]
• On Gatekeeping:
  “I see such a catch 22 in success in this industry... How then do I get my foot in the door?” — Nathan Fillion [46:03]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Early Industry Hustle & First Film: [00:00]–[05:06], [14:38]–[15:00]
• How Uncharted Came Together: [04:22]–[11:39]
• The Joys and Risks of Fan Films: [23:41]–[27:56]
• Industry Impact of Uncharted Fan Film: [26:58]–[28:34]
• Navigating the Canadian Indie Film Scene: [12:17]–[13:42]
• ‘Bandit’ & Filmmaking in a Pandemic: [41:49]–[44:00]
• Advice for Aspiring Creatives: [48:04]–[49:43]
• Let’s Get to Know You Better – Fun Facts: [51:34]–[59:34]

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Lightning Round: “Let’s Get to Know You Better”

[51:34]–[59:34]

• Fillion: Mistaken for Jason Bateman (“It's Jason, not Justin. And it's not me.” [53:26]).
• Tudyk: Used to paint as a form of emotional catharsis, traded paintings for cigarettes and moon pies, but ultimately put down the brush when skill plateaued ([53:51]–[56:30]).
• Ungar: Performed violin at Carnegie Hall at age 8 as part of a conservatory ([57:00]).

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Other Notable Fun/Fan Moments

• Music Recommendations:
  • Ungar: Hans Zimmer scores for inspiration ([60:25]).
  • Tudyk: Heavyweights Brass Band’s “Nueva Orleans” to honor the Canada connection ([61:06]).
• Ghost Stories:
  Ungar recounts a haunting trip with the Paranormal Society, describing “flashlight play” and unexplained phenomena ([61:59]–[66:07]).

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Upcoming Projects & Where to Watch

• Upcoming: Death Stranding adaptation (in development at A24), System Shock, Driver, London Calling now on Hulu ([67:26]).
• Favorite Recent Project: London Calling, shot in Cape Town, blending buddy cop nostalgia with irreverence and boasting a stellar cast ([68:32]).

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The Takeaway

This episode offers an entertaining, candid, and inspiring look at the unpredictability of creative careers. Ungar’s journey—filled with risks, hustling, and genuine passion—serves as a testament to self-initiated opportunity and the importance of forging (not foraging!) one’s own path. Fillion and Tudyk’s warmth, wit, and camaraderie infuse the conversation with humor and heart, making this a must-listen for fans of filmmaking, Firefly, or anyone chasing a creative dream.

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Selected Quotes with Timestamps

• “Because of a guy I met in Toronto who turned out to be a con artist, I ended up at a house party where I met this guy who financed my first film.” — Allan Ungar [14:39]
• “People don’t care why something fails. They care about what succeeds. I need to come up with something fast to change this narrative.” — Allan Ungar [09:38]
• “I put the money up myself. It was one of those risks where... I said, I’m not even 30 yet... I feel like I have nothing to lose.” — Allan Ungar [25:36]
• “If you do A, B, and C, you will not end up being a writer, producer, director. You have to forge your own path.” — Nathan Fillion [16:49]
• “Stamina… Patience and stamina. That’s what I would tell people.” — Allan Ungar [49:43]
• “Yeah, you always do [have to keep proving yourself].” — Alan Tudyk [48:04]

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For Listeners

“Don’t do it. No, I’m just kidding… If you want to go after it and you want to foster that talent and the creativity. You also have to master patience and stamina.” — Allan Ungar [48:34–49:43]

London Calling is available on Hulu.
Upcoming: Death Stranding (in development at A24).

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

And I meet this guy who comes up to me who happens to be from London, Ontario, which is where all my friends went to school.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And we start talking and he tells me that he has an idea for a film and he needs to find a writer. And I said, I'll tell you what, I'll write it for free if I can direct it. And that's how I got my first film made. Because of a guy met in Toronto who turned out to be a con artist. I ended up at a house party where I met this guy who financed my first film.

[B]

Once We Were Spacemen. Spacemen. I tend to play weird people, usually aliens and robots and things that don't have romance.

[C]

I once didn't get a job where they were looking for a Nathan Fillion type. Once We Were Spacemen.

[B]

Once We Were Spacemen.

[C]

Allan.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Every once in a while, do you ever meet a guy who. Or someone who is on a rocket, and then your. Your path just kind of cross At a moment you go, oh, that guy's on a rocket.

[B]

But you're talking about a guy who is in space and once was a spaceman. Of course, I've met people on rockets. I've met people on satellites. I've met people on drugs.

[C]

I crossed paths with this guy who, on his way up, and I thought, this is a really neat fella. I don't. I don't know how he convinced me to work with him. I really don't. I'm going to have to ask him.

[B]

Wow, he's got special. He's got those special sort of skills to convince you, like, I will.

[C]

I will guarantee this, you're going to like this guy.

[B]

You want to do my project?

[C]

Yeah. He kept dangling this watch in front of me. I was like, why? Why do you keep doing that? Next thing, I'm a chicken. Let's see how Alan Unger feels about it.

[B]

All right.

[C]

Highlight of my day, dude. Alan, do it.

[B]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Once We Were Spacemen. Because it was once once a single point in time. But time, time goes on. It is infinite. And so is this point of singularity. That was once, when we Were spacemen is also now. Because now is there and the past is. The future is now. It's happening with the very.

[C]

I. Yeah, I couldn't tell when you took breath in there.

[B]

I'm just now taking a breath. I popped one small blood vessel. I don't want to tell you where. I want to leave my shirt on.

[C]

No one's asking.

[B]

Okay, good Good, good, good, good.

[C]

Alan.

[B]

Which Alan.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

We're gonna need a assistant here.

[C]

Right. So we got Alan with One L, but two dick. We got Alan with two Ls. But un gar. That's the Canadian reference to one un gar.

[B]

And gar is what?

[C]

Venus? What is it? War.

[A]

One.

[B]

Got one. Wait a second. I've got two dick, and he's got one war. That doesn't sound right.

[A]

This sounds like the wrong podcast, guys.

[B]

It sounds like. Yeah, I mean, at least one. Well, okay, so, okay, let's get to.

[C]

Let's get to why Alan is here. Alan and Alan Ungar is here. Alan and I. Alan Ungar and I. This is gonna be terrible. Is it too late to change your name, Alan again?

[B]

Oh, me? Yes. You know what? You can call me Al, and I would call you Betty, and Betty when you call me, you can call me Al. Paul Simon, ladies and gentlemen.

[C]

There we are. Okay, so Alan and I met through Alex. Seeing a theme.

[B]

Ah. Now we got an Alex. That Al things out the window. Just call me Betty. Call me Betty.

[C]

But Alan and Angar and I did a Uncharted fan film together.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

Now I'm trying to go back in time because that was what, 20? 18.

[A]

18. Yeah.

[C]

It's almost 10 years ago.

[A]

It's been some time.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I'm trying to remember, Alan, what you said to me to convince me to do that.

[A]

I believe there was a spiel over Thai food.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And I had told you that nobody should attempt to do this if it is without you. And I pitched you on two story ideas that I had for where it could go if it had been canon and obviously part of the universe. And I just kind of poured my heart out and told you what I thought it would mean to the community, and it was something to give back for the fans.

[B]

Do you remember what you ate?

[A]

I had pad Thai. Yeah, I remember that much. Because that's all.

[B]

That's the important restaurant that's important to me.

[C]

Was it a vegan?

[A]

It was vegan. It was vegan.

[C]

So we all had vegan pad Thai.

[B]

How did you even get the meeting with Nathan F. How'd you end up at dinner?

[A]

Yeah, you know. Oh, Nathan. Yeah. Nathan has his side. Which started at a Halloween party.

[C]

So I'll. Yeah. So I'm at a Halloween party. I see a kid. A kid. I see a guy dressed in what could only be described as a luge uniform with a toque on Canadian style with a maple leaf on it and carrying a Canadian Frisbee as And he was Captain Canada. He was like a superhero. Captain Canada. Now, a couple years prior, I had done a World War II version of Captain Canada for Halloween, and I made my own shield. And I said, hey, man, you're going all the way with the luge outfit. I love it. But your shield, you need my shield. And he goes, oh, my God, I have another Halloween party to go to. I give him my address. I was going to be gone the next day, but I just set the shield out by the garage and he swung by the house and he picked it up. And I would hear from him every two to three months saying, I still have it. I haven't forgotten. I just haven't gotten it back to you. And like a year or more later, I mean, I wasn't using it doesn't matter. But he would just kept texting me every once in a while saying, hey, it's me. I still have it. I haven't forgotten. Just haven't gotten around to bring it back. Just wouldn't let it die, right? Didn't. Didn't let it. And then Alan, you called him Alex. You called Alex.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I. Alex and I actually came up together. I got him his very first producing credit. He got me my first directing credit. And he. He had moved out to L. A Years before I did. And it was around the time, if you guys remember, you know, there was this influx of really great. They called them bootleg films, right? You know, Mortal Kombat and they did the Punisher, Dirty Laundry dance.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Portal.

[A]

There was this sort of movement and, you know, even Power Rangers, even though Saban had taken Power Rangers down, it went back up. And so I was on the treadmill one day and I was just thinking about how incredible it would be to see one of these fan films, but with the actual actor that the Internet wanted to see. Because obviously in Hollywood, you know, art versus commerce, it's kind of tough sometimes. And so my mind immediately went to Uncharted. And I just had texted Alex and because he had told me he met Nathan at a party and I soft floated it to him and he was kind of like, okay, yeah, maybe I'll bring it up at some point. Which means he will. He will never bring it up at any point.

[B]

And soft floated, I've never heard this term. What does soft floated mean?

[A]

It's like, I think I had that.

[B]

If I drink too much.

[C]

It's the opposite of a hard sell.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I see.

[A]

It's a toe dip. It's Canadian. It's fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so I. I was getting ready to do this film in Toronto, and it was gonna be my biggest movie. I'd come off this Netflix film called Gridlock, which had done really well on the platform, sort of in the early Netflix days. And I was getting ready to do this. This film, which had an amazing cast, it was a big budget. I was gonna, you know, flip my first car. And it shut down two days before we went to camera. Two days. Sets were built, actors had been in town, rehearsals, everything. Why I was it. It's a long story, but essentially there was a financier out of Toronto who was going through a divorce, was losing custody of his kid and his house, and he just pulled all the money out. And, you know, there were some pre sales on the film.

[B]

I see why she left him. Obviously, he's got. He's a. I mean, he doesn't.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was. We. We would later learn that a lot of his credits were not on the up and up. And so it was. It was one of those unfortunate Hollywood stories that you.

[B]

Maybe the marriage wasn't real. This guy, I don't like him. He stinks. I'm sorry. That sucks.

[A]

That is bad. It was bad. And I was. I was devastated because I had chased the script. It was on the hit list and the black list in the years prior. And so I had chased it for a long time. And I had already booked a celebratory rap trip for myself to St. Lucia and so. To see rapists.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I go to St. Lucia to celebrate.

[C]

Nothing.

[A]

Oh, I'm just. I'm just depressed in St. Lucia. And it was my birthday as well, which makes it even more fun. And I remember I took. I took a jet ski out on the ocean, and I was just sort of riding around and I was giving a bucket song. I lost six months of playing video games. I feel like I have some video games to catch up on. And the DLC for Uncharted 4 had come out and I didn't play it. And so when I got back, I played it and it sparked this idea again, because I was thinking to myself, I was still in Toronto at the time. I hadn't moved to la. All the people in town that I would visit a couple times a year, the execs, the producers, the actors, everyone was going to say, how did the movie go? And I'm like, I need to do a bait and switch, because I don't want to go around telling a sob story. People don't care about why something fails. They care about what succeeds. So I said, I need to come up with something fast to change this narrative because it's just going to make me look bad. And I had won a settlement through the Director's Guild, I had some cash and I was like, you know what, what can I do with this? And I revisited this idea that I soft loaded to Alex. And I texted him and I said, I'm really serious about this. I think Nathan is supposed to shoot a new pilot. There's probably some time, like there's this window. Comic Con is in July. I think there's this seven month opportunity to make this happen. And he told me I was nuts. He's like, this is the worst idea. Why would you get an established actor to do a short film? And I said, trust me. And I wrote him an essay essentially as to why he should pitch this to Nathan. So he's like, you know what, you're. You're my best friend. I'm going to do it for you. But just don't be let down when I tell you that it's just not going to go anywhere. Two days goes by, he texts me, he goes, yeah, see, Nathan's not even responding. So it turns out, I think, Nate, you were with your brother diving or snorkeling? You were somewhere. We were on the other side of the. You were diving on the other side of the planet. And you responded to him and said, I'm intrigued. Tell me more. And Alex, because he is tenacious and he knows how to move, he set up the dinner and I flew to la. I told Alex, oh, I'm gonna happen to be. I think he told Nathan actually he's just gonna happen to be in town. But really I flew for this dinner and deception and I pitched my heart out.

[C]

Wow, now paid off. I wanna go back for a second. You said people don't care about why you failed. They wanna know what's succeeding. What was that little added you had?

[A]

Yeah, they want. They want to know why something succeeds. They that people aren't interested in talking as much about a failure. I think there's this negative connotation that comes with it. People get excited.

[C]

Hey, kid, before you go on in the career, you got to know something. They don't care why it failed, they want to know why it succeeded.

[A]

I think it's just something that I picked up on. It was just something that I felt as I was navigating the industry as a young guy in my 20s. It was just something that I experienced.

[C]

What is the temperature like for a Young guy trying to make movies in Toronto.

[A]

You know, there's a really great indie scene in Toronto. And obviously, you know, Toronto as Vancouver, you know, has always been sort of looked at as this sort of Hollywood North. And, you know, I grew up. My mother was actually in the industry. She. She supplied all the walkies on sets, and whenever actors came into town, she supplied the cell phones because, you know, you get a different line when you travel to shoot.

[B]

All right, So I kind of grew up.

[A]

I would go on the sets every now and then. And so, you know, I always found the world very fascinating because I was able to do that through my mom. And when I was 19, 20. Yeah, around then, I was finishing up at York University. I was at the film program there, and I just wanted to start going out and making my own shorts. I was writing, I was trying to teach myself. I was knocking on doors. I was offering the shadow, I was offering the pa. I was offering anything I could just to kind of get my foot in the door. And because there's such an embraced indie scene in Toronto, I was really fortunate that I was able to get my first movie made when I was 20, around 23.

[B]

Holy.

[C]

I was really young.

[A]

I was. I was really, really young. And was it porn? Because I met a guy.

[B]

No, not porn.

[C]

Not your career?

[B]

Well, no, yeah, because I see echoes of my career. So I figured. Figured because I came into the same scene, I'll do anything. And then I got my first movie made, right. In my 20s.

[A]

But yeah, no, those two.

[C]

That.

[B]

That equation turned out to be.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It was a porn for you. I mean, it was important for me. Anyway.

[A]

Yeah, it was a fluke because the guy that I met, who. Who was coming off these really celebrated films out of Tiff, turned out to be running a Ponzi scheme.

[C]

And.

[A]

Yeah, which. Which happens. And I tracked him down to la, not telling him that I knew this, and I ended up staying with him. He was living above Yamashiro on North Sycamore. So he had this big house, he had a Porsche. And I'm thinking where, you know, all these investors, like. And he's got nothing to show for it. And he hosted a party one night for the Pacific, the HBO show, which was the follow up to Band of Brothers. And you have an unknown, Jon Berenthal, there at the time, all these actors who I didn't know. And I meet this guy who comes up to, who happens to be from London, Ontario, which is where all my friends went to school.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And we start talking and he tells me that he has an idea for a film and he needs to find a writer. And I said, I'll tell you what, I'll write it for free if I can direct it. And that's how I got my first film made. Because of a guy I met in Toronto who turned out to be a con artist, I ended up at a house party where I met this guy who financed my first film.

[C]

Oh, my. I'm blown away right now. Alan, comments?

[B]

Well, I just. It seems like first of all, from, from your experience, you're. You're painting Hollywood and the filmmaking industry is one full of shysters and, and it's. You succeed with your ability to sort of skate on their just shit. Like, he knew he was a Ponzi scheme. You're like, you know what? I bet I can get a bedroom out of that guy. And before the house of cards comes down, I might be able to meet a couple of connections. Like, you're, You're.

[A]

I just wanted to know. I just went to investigate. Like, all I did was go there to find out what was happening because I, like, my heart was pounding and I was like, I just, I just need to know. Because I put some development money into it because it was my first feature film. And so I'm like, I need to know how I can get my money out or how I can salvage the situation because my parents are going to kill me. I'm going to feel like a failure. Like there was all this stuff running through my head.

[B]

Were you looking at stuff in his house like, I can hawk this, that sell that?

[A]

Honestly, just the, Just the Porsche. Just the Porsche.

[C]

Yeah. I'm going to need those account numbers from the Bahamas too.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

I, I'm always fascinated by the journey to your position. Where you are right now. You are, you are writing, you are producing, you are directing and, and some incredible movies with some phenomenal actors. You have an incredible relationship with Josh Du Amo right now. You guys are working together very, very well. Before I get ahead of myself, I'm just also very impressed with how people find a path to a destination where there is no proven path. If you do A, B and C, you will not end up being a writer, producer, director. You have to forage your own path. This is a question for both of you, because you both direct.

[B]

Can I just. I just want to. I want to. I want you to have a chance. Another chance at this sentence. You have to forge your own path. If you forage your own path, you're foraging for Like a salad later.

[C]

Did I say forage? Thank you for catching that.

[B]

Yes, yes, thank you.

[C]

That would have driven me crazy in the edit. Thank you.

[B]

Go, go again.

[C]

Thank you for your own path. This correction was brought to you by Alan Tudyk.

[B]

Correction.

[C]

The question being, what was it for both of you that made you say, were you watching a film? Were you talking to somebody that made you say, I think I can do this. This is for me, Betty.

[A]

You go ahead, Betty.

[B]

Thank. Thank you, Alan. Al. I'm going to call you Al. So I think I just always had a propensity to entertain. I can go back to elementary school on the recess playground where the girls would all go off into one little corner and they would do cheers. They practice cheers. I got four buddies together, learned the cheers, changed the lyrics, and did spoofs of the cheers when I was in elementary school. And I did them in a different part of the playground. And kids would come around and watch and laugh.

[C]

But in the midst of a career, Alan, you are an actor. You're. You're in the. You're in the industry. And you go, right, I better do that over there. That what that guy's doing.

[B]

I've had places where I just feel like failure and I go, I better do something fast. Like you were talking about I owe some money or I got this. There's moments like that where I go, oh, I've taken a wrong turn. I need to up my game or figure out a new skill or, yeah, start doing a better job at this. If I'm going to do this, you know, I have that. I feel like that's how my career goes in cycles, where it's like, do

[C]

you feel you just had enough of those experiences that you said, that's it, I gotta. I gotta direct now?

[B]

Well, that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure, yes. Well, yes, because you go again into a system where you say, here's the idea. It makes perfect sense to me that this idea should be done. And, all right, so I'll play your game. And I played that game we're talking about now. I'm talking about Con Man. The one thing that I've produced with you and PJ Harsma and, And directed, and we raised money through crowdfunding, but we took it to all of these different people, all these different production companies, and tried ad revenue. It was at a time when the Internet wasn't quite set up the way it is right now, where it was clear, like all. All the lines weren't drawn yet. So people kept calling it A web series. And it was before, anyway, so we went to all the traditional places. They all either passed or had a different idea about con man. They would like to make it, but they want to make it the way that they see it. Which tended to insult the fans, which was not. Was a non, non starter.

[C]

You felt you needed to control it then.

[B]

Yeah, it was the only thing left because we, we truly, we. We spent about two years. PJ and I kicked that around for two years and hung with so many people. And we, we made the proof of concept. It was very clear what the thing was.

[C]

I had sounds almost to me that it was born of desperation. I love it, Alan.

[B]

I had to be whittled down to that. Yeah, absolutely. I was desperate.

[C]

I love this. Alan Unger. What, what was, what was the moment where you said, I think directing is my path?

[A]

I grew up in a household that really embraced film and, and art.

[C]

Cool.

[A]

And I don't remember a time where I wasn't watching movies with my parents. And it got to a point where even in early elementary school, I was faking sick so I can stay at home and watch VHS tapes. And I really wanted to act. At first I thought that that was what would bring me the joy because I, you know, similar to. To you, the, as you said, this propensity to entertain. Right. And I always thought there was this magic to. To being able to capture people in this sort of, let's say, 90 to 120 minute span where you could make them laugh, you can make them cry, you could make them feel something. Sounds a little sociopathic, but, you know, this ability to force people to feel something, but in a communal way. And so I wanted to act. I started doing all the school plays and the camp plays. And then I realized I'm kind of a control freak. And, you know, I kind of. Because I was writing a lot and I was kind of. Even as an actor, when I would do the plays as a kid, I would find myself suggesting different blocking tweaks and different technical approaches. And so it kind of hit me then that I really wanted to direct and that was it. There was no other alternative for me. And, you know, you go to my friends now and anybody who grew up with me, they'll all tell you that it was. That was it. That was the one path. There was never going to be anything else. And my parents were like, you know, you need a backup. And my dad was like, go be a lawyer. And eventually, you know, I said to my parents, I would say, sometime in the middle of university. I was like, okay, here's the deal. If I don't make my first movie by. I was like, it was arbitrary. I said, 25, which was aggressive. It's young. Right. I said, if I don't make my first movie by the time I'm 25, I'll go to law school. And I was able to beat that projection by a couple years. And they were like, you know what? Go ahead, do your thing.

[B]

Cool. That's an incredible way to get out of law school.

[A]

Easy way to not write the lsat.

[C]

Yes. But that you have a family that's familiar enough with the industry to know how viable it is and. Or isn't. Are aware of the risks, but also the potential success. Like, where I'm. Where I'm from, there's not a lot of film and tv. So it was a very unknown prospect. Alan was at film and television when you were growing up. Is everybody thinking about it's a possibility?

[B]

Hell, no. I don't know. Maybe. No. I don't know. I was in Dallas. I was outside of Dallas in suburbs, but, you know, so there wasn't. There wasn't an industry there. There's. Nobody in my family did it. We don't love films. I remember one time accidentally watching Blue Velvet with my mother when I was 13. Well, we only got to the part where she got that knife out and start sticking him in the leg. And his. Let me. Give me your penis. Or whatever. I don't. It was.

[A]

And you're like, this is what I want to do.

[B]

An uncomfortable moment for the mother and child reunion that we had there that night. I have some very Paul Simon today.

[C]

I'm uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Now, you. You write a couple movies. You're a kid, but you're making some movies. And you. You have. You. We. We meet, we make. You're a. You're a fan of games. It's a wonderful property. It tells incredible stories. People love that game because there's story behind it that you can really invest in. And you say, oh, I want to make a fan film. We meet and we make this little fan film. Do you remember it, like, teasing people about that, saying, hey, we're gonna. We're gonna release this thing right before Comic Con. Do you remember that?

[A]

Yeah, that was actually probably the most fun. I mean, listen, it was all fun, but there was that you and I had kicked around some ideas about how we were gonna tease the date. And I remember we did the picture of Drake the rapper, and. And I was like, we should Have Nathan post a picture of Drake the rapper and put the tagline from Uncharted and see what happens. And I remember a bunch of the outlets picked it up like wildfire.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And it started circulating online, which kind of. And now we're like, okay, the trains left the station. There's no going back now. And. And that was amazing, because really, at that point, nobody knew this existed other than the few people that worked on it, who, even then, as you remember, and I know you like to tell this story too, is people would show up on set and not realize what it was until you walked out in wardrobe.

[C]

Yeah, we had some fans on the crew. Some. Some Uncharted fans going, oh, my God, is this hap. Is this really happening? They became children. It was wonderful. They were giddy.

[A]

That's the power of these worlds and these characters and these stories, the way that it can make grown. You know, as Stephen Lang said. Because Stephen Lang was shooting the second Avatar and he happened to be in la, which is why I was able to call him and ask for the favor to come down and do this with us. And he didn't really know much about the property, but his son, who I had become friends with after Stephen and I worked together the first time, was like, dad, you absolutely have to do this.

[C]

Did his son come and do lunch with us? Who was that with him when. When we. We had lunch with. With. With slang.

[A]

I don't know if it was Noah, though.

[B]

I'm not sure.

[A]

It might have been. It was. I remember those. I mean, those days where my brain was all over the place just trying to get this done. But, yeah, he said to me, he went to the set the day it came out, and he literally sent me a note being like, I'm seeing grown men weep. He's like, I'm seeing grown men weep.

[B]

Where'd you get the money? So I'm with the government. Where'd you get that money?

[A]

No, this is me circling back to the story I told you before when that movie fell apart. Oh, I had. I had earned my prep fees, and then I won a settlement because. Fair play. So I. I put the money up myself. It was one of those risks where, you know, as we get older, of course, we don't roll the dice as much we get. You know, there's this aversion to risk and danger. And I said, you know what? I'm not even 30 yet. I. I have the. You know, I don't care. I've got. I feel like I have nothing to lose. I'M gonna, I'm gonna try it. And I believe in this because I, I said to everybody that thought this was insane, including my copyright law lawyer friend who said, good luck, you're gonna get sued. I said, listen, I. I'm doing it. You didn't have the rights? Well, no, because it was unauthorized. I mean, it was one of those things where, as I was saying before, you know, there was this outpouring of love from the community for all these bootleg fan films. Right. And I think Power Rangers was the only one that had a cease and desist. But then it later went back up because they were not monetizing it. And I always said at the outset to everybody, I'm putting up the money and I expect not a single dollar in return. I'm not monetizing this. And that, I think, allowed it to be acceptable to the higher ups.

[C]

But they also said, please don't do this anymore. Right. Yeah.

[A]

It was funny. There were a lot of people from the Sony proper and Sony Video Games who had reached out to me, some of whom I knew, his execs who used to be at other companies. And I remember one guy reached out to me who was heading up the, the PlayStation movie division and he was like, as soon as this hit, everyone said, what do we do with this? And he goes, I said, I know this guy, he's cool. This is, this is actually going to help us. We should just leave this. And it did. They sold more of those digital remastered copies of the game. I think it helped accelerate the movie's timeline because at that time, the movie was just sitting in development hell. There was. Nothing was happening with it.

[C]

That movie. They've been trying to. By that point, they'd been trying to make that movie for what, a decade or something?

[A]

Yeah, it was a decade. It was, it was a decade. They had four or five different directors, they had multiple actors fall out. They were just about to lose Shawn Levy. At the time when we were doing this, it was Shawn Levy.

[C]

Can you believe that would have been a good movie?

[A]

Yeah. And so it just, it was one of those things that was very fortuitous. It just. The timing was perfect and. And then. Yeah, and then I think they all felt, you know, it's Sony and PlayStation. They were like, you know what? This is actually kind of helping. Because the online response was swift and definitive. And the amount of people that reached out to you, reached out to me, who were just like, this is what we've needed. And I think even the Verge at one point, in multiple Articles said that this was the. The best video game adaptation that Hollywood had ever had.

[C]

You had a very warm reception after that piece came out. I was thrilled. I was thrilled to be a part of it. That was a lot of fun. I still. Even though you told me the conversation, I don't. I don't think I would have done it. I don't know. Who's this guy? I don't know this guy.

[A]

Yeah, well, you brought. You brought your. You brought your manager, Michelle.

[C]

Michelle Chapman.

[A]

Michelle Chapman was present. And the joke now is both you and she were like, so what did you think of me at the time? Were you intimidated by me? And I jokingly said to her, I was like, no, you were doing your job, because I'm an. I'm an unknown entity. I mean, you knew Alex, but even at the time, I don't think you realized that. Alex was becoming a very legitimate and prolific producer. And of course, now his. He's done incredible, massive films.

[B]

But what has he done? What has he done? Give me a name. Give me something.

[A]

Bill and Ted 3.

[B]

That's great. I love this guy.

[A]

Alex.

[C]

No, he.

[A]

It was really all because of him. And so, you know, the four of us sat there, and I remember we finished the meeting. You said, I'm going to go brush up on some uncharted. Let me know when there's a script. And she held me back, and she said, listen, there's a lot at risk here if we do this. We're about to shoot a pilot. This was right when you were about to start the Rookie. And she said, this has to be done in such a manner that cannot hurt Nathan. And I heard her loud and clear. And I said, as long as you know that I feel like I'm in this with you because if I screw this up, I'm the guy that screwed up the Internet's dream to have Nathan do this. So I said, trust me, the pressure's on me as well. Like, I. This is not something I'm gonna screw up. And she laughed that. She's like, okay.

[B]

She might have meant, you can't hurt Nathan with the action sequences. Because I remember a lot of, like, watching going, my knees, monies.

[A]

Yeah. But you know what?

[C]

He.

[A]

He did it all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was impressed early. Nathan came in early, and I remember the stunt team we had was great because they were also stunned actors, and we were able to use them for reactions and all these things to make them feel like characters and very involved. And that's always been my relationship with the stunt community. I've been one of those guys. Kind of like how Dave Leach and all the, you know, Chad Stahelski have been saying for years, you know, a lot of these guys deserve Oscars. Right. And so I've always had an affinity for that community, actually.

[C]

Chad Allen. You met Chad because he was our stunt coordinator for Serenity.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'm totally in.

[C]

That's another guy whose star has just rocketed.

[A]

Really? Yeah. And it's embracing. It's embracing those guys. And so I had met those guys when I was at film school, and as part of the New York Film Academy, there would be this catalog in this database where they would tell you which performers, which crew in Hollywood were willing to work on student shorts pro bono. I met these guys through that program. And I remember when I had called them back, they were like, you might be one of the only filmmakers that actually ever called us back, knowing that we helped you, and you're actually returning the fate. It was just kind of one of those things. And I stayed in touch with them, and when I told them what it was, one of the guys drove his motorcycle from Colorado to be part of this. Wow. And, yeah. And so we did. We did a day of rehearsals, and Nate came in, and I just remember your ability to retain the choreography and the steps, like, flawlessly. It was so impressive.

[C]

They kept it very simple, and they kept it. If you had been watching the video games, they kept it. Nathan Drake oriented. They weren't reinventing the wheel. They were. They were honoring the games. They were. And those guys were fantastic actors. Those guys that were actors in the scene were the same guys doing the. The stunts in the fights. It was wonderful. Sergio I ran into later as well.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

On Suicide Squad, my arms pop off as the. The detachable kid, and I kind of start slapping a couple of fellas around that. One of those fellas was Sergio. That James gave me a line of people to pick, and I said, well, I got big. Sergio and I go way back.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's so funny.

[C]

And that. The Small World. I love that we went to Comic Con with that. We had a wonderful reception at Comic Con. We did a bunch of press for that. The. The Internet went crazy. I think that's where I got the idea of watching reaction videos, is people watching the Uncharted fan film. There's a moment in which you take the camera and you pull in behind Nathan Drake and you change the aspect ratio, just like the end of a cutscene. Now you're into the action portion of the video game, you see it change, and everybody knows that feeling of, all right, it's my turn. And now I'm. I'm in it now. It's not just a movie I'm watching now. I'm. That experience of I'm diving in. Just the way the screen widens, it just gives you that feeling of I'm slipping into the world now. I'm in control. When you do that in the Uncharted film, all those kids doing the reaction videos light up like a Christmas tree because they know the feeling.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Even the Jewish ones, and they don't believe in Christmas.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I'm Jewish. And I will now.

[B]

Good, good. So.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So. So you guys went to, like, you had, like, a panel and showed it at the panel at Comic Con?

[A]

No, we. We launched it on the Monday, and I was. So Nathan was already going. Nathan. I talked to Nathan and Michelle. They were going. They had. They had something for the rookie. Was. No, Wasn't it this. It was rookie. And you had two things. Sing along.

[C]

No, that was. That was many years ago.

[A]

There was something in Hall H you guys were doing.

[B]

Anyway, when was it? What year?

[A]

2018. There was a big rookie. There was a big rookie billboard, though, that I remember.

[B]

Con man was 16. That was 2016, I think.

[C]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a rookie. Let's just go with the rookie. We'll go with the rookie, Right? Let's pretend I am.

[B]

Let's just remember that Con man went

[C]

to Hall H. That's producing. Yeah.

[A]

And it was already. It was planned, and I was 50. 50 on whether it would warrant me going. And then when the reaction kind of came in and the Internet lit up, I said, oh, my God, we have to go to Comic Con. And there was sort of my publicist who was doing a favor for me at the time. She had already kind of reached out to some of the outlets who were going to run the story, and there was an embargo, and all of them unanimously said, will Nathan and Alan be at Comic Con? And that's when it hit me. I was like, we got. We got to go to Comic Con. So Nathan. And I was. I was scrambling that.

[B]

Sorry, I'm Betty.

[A]

I was scrambling to get, like, a pass and the credentials. And it was very easy at that point because people were like, oh, I'll give this up for you. I'll. I have a hookup for you. Don't worry. We'll take care of you. And it was incredible. But no There was no panel. I guess at that point, people had already seen it. So we were doing a lot of the interviews. But a few weeks later, because Nathan had introduced me to a couple friends of his who were doing Toronto Fan Expo, they said, you have to do a panel at Fan Expo in Toronto. Nathan can't come, but you should do it. I was like, nobody's gonna come if Nathan's not there. Like, nobody cares about me. And I remember I showed up at the. The Toronto Convention center, and there was this room, and there was a small screen that said, uncharted fan film Q and A with, you know, director, writer Alan Unger. And I showed up an hour early. Do a tech check. I'm like, nobody. Nobody's gonna show up at.

[B]

Nobody shows up an hour early for a tech check, but go on. That's great.

[A]

I am ocd. I'm Jewish and ocd.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And so I remember going on my phone and coming back a short time later, and I see two lines going around the corner in each direction, and I'm like, oh, this has got to be for something else. And the friend who I brought with me came over and he's like, no, they're all. They're all here for this. They're all here to see you talk about this. And I was like, you got to be kidding me.

[B]

And.

[A]

And it was hundreds of people in this ballroom, and we played the film. Some had already seen it, but a lot of people hadn't. And it was. I was like, oh, my God, this is unbelievable. You guys realize Nathan is not coming. And they were. They were fine.

[B]

You went up and down the line saying, nathan, it's not going to be here.

[A]

I just. I just couldn't. It was imposter syndrome.

[B]

How'd it go? Was it. It fun?

[A]

It was unbelievable. It was one of the most memorable experiences of my life.

[C]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's.

[C]

That's another shared experience we all have. Alan and Alan, you have both experienced going on a stage with a microphone in front of a bunch of excited people who are excited for the projects you do, and they have burning questions for you, and they're just dying to adore the. Your work.

[B]

Well, that's. Yeah, that's. Well, that's like. That's a con. That's. You know, that's a con. That's the world of cons. That's. It's a place to let your freak fly and really indulge in your loves. Like, really. Like, it gives you permission to have fan moments. I mean, it is, it's. And fan is short for fanatic. So you get to really, really let it go. I love that thing.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And bounce off of people who love it just as much. And geek out.

[C]

Not geek.

[B]

Not geek in the terms of that. The people say geek and nerd or similar things. Geeks used to bite the heads off of chickens. Circus geeks. It did. I didn't mean it that way. What were we talking about? Yeah.

[A]

Going to come. You're asking if we went to Comic Con with it?

[C]

No, but yeah, Alan, you, Alan Ongar, you moved forward with that thing. You kind of used it as a, as a flashy business card of sorts. And what was the next step for you? Because you started making some really fun movies. London calling.

[A]

Yeah, no, it was, it was one of those moments where, you know, it's funny, I had made two features at that point, and yet I became this guy known for, for this. And so a lot of people in the industry were like, what do you want to do for your first feature? And I was like, I was kind of offended by it at first. I was like, wait, what? No, I've made features before. But I realized so quickly that this was sort of the start of a new chapter. I mean, Alan was referring to this before. As you've, as you've gone through your career, there's these ebbs and flows and you evolve in different ways and you to refer, realize what works for you, what doesn't, your taste changes a little bit and you grow and you kind of latch onto the things that kind of make more sense at that time. And so I looked at it as sort of this start of a second chapter in my career. And I ended up signing with, with agents that really were incredible and believed in me. And they said, from this, from this? Yeah, no, I had a lot of people around town calling me, are you rep, do you have an agent? Where do you have projects set up? You know, what can we do? Where can we put you? And it was overwhelming. And I ended up doing sort of the Water Bottle Couch tour, as one does. You know, you go around town and you, you meet people. And it's funny because at that time there were a lot of places I wanted to meet with, but it was one of those, you're not ready, let's see what you do next. And this changed that. So there were all the places that, you know, were sort of being gate kept for me that I was able to go in and meet with and started setting up a bunch of projects and as you obviously get into the studio system, things kind of just stall and languish. They kind of don't move anywhere. They take a lot of time. And so this project, Bandit, had come to me, which was a true Canadian story about the guy who has the record for the most bank robberies in Canadian history. And it was charming and had levity, it had heart, all the things that I really gravitate towards. And so that was the thing that I wanted to be make next. And so we set that up and got Josh Du attached, and that was, you know, gearing up to go right before COVID started. And then co hit and it just completely stalled out. And then as films were getting back up and running, nobody wanted to come to Canada. Nobody wanted to sit in a hotel for 14 days in quarantine, right? So the producers were like, this movie's dead. And at the time, you know, I was like, okay. You know, it had been a couple of years since I had been on set, you know, since. Since we did this. And I was getting a little antsy. Luckily, I was. I was doing a lot of work in the video game space, getting the rights to a lot of video game adaptations because of the street cred that I built off of this. And so I was. I was certainly busy, but I was really eager to get back on set. I didn't want to sit in development. And partway through Covid, the producers came to me on Bandit and said, we, we have a way to do this, but it's not going to shoot in Canada. I said, wait, we're going to make a movie about 1980s Canada, but we're not going to shoot it in Canada? He's like, no, you got two options. You can go to Puerto Rico or you can go to Georgia. And I said, well, I'm sure, you know that 1980s Canada and Puerto Rico are very identical. So, yeah, let's go to Puerto Rico for sure. So I chose Georgia, and I figured I could double Vancouver and Toronto for parts of Atlanta, find the right architecture, find the right street corner. And yes, we went. We made this during COVID And during COVID During COVID Yeah, it was early 21, and it was. It was tough. I mean, making.

[B]

Did everybody have to get tested before they went in?

[C]

It was. There was.

[A]

There was. Yeah, I actually couldn't even get on a plane because you guys were able to get the vaccines a lot. It was more accessible for you than it was in Canada. Oh, we're not handing the. Everybody, just anybody. So even. Even as a Regular guy in Canada, it was really hard to get the vaccine. It was only for frontline workers at the time. And I got really lucky that I got mine a week before I was set to fly to Georgia. And then I had to get my second one when I was in Georgia. Right. Because I think you had to wait a couple of weeks. There had to be a buffer. And, yes, there was rigorous testing. There was, you know, of course, the mask mandates. And that was tough because Georgia in June is hot, steaming.

[C]

It's.

[A]

It's mud. It's not easy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, you know, and sometimes when you're speaking to somebody in close proximity, when you're directing as, you know, inflection, intonation, everything, the animation in your face, the micro expressions, that's a big part of it. And you're losing a lot of it, which is tough. But we got through it and. And the film ended up being incredibly successful, and Josh and I built this.

[B]

We're losing a lot of it in rehearsals. But then you took them off for the movie, right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there were days, though, where there were reps for SAG who showed up, and I would be sitting with Josh Du Mel and Alicia Cuthbert, and we'd be going through the scene, and I'd pull the mask down, and someone would come up to me and say, you got to put that on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they didn't. It was one of those things where the actors didn't have to, but the director had to wear it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I kind of fought back about. You know, I was a little frustrated because I was like, you know, why are we separating it? Like, I mean, I don't know. If we're gonna wear a mask, let's wear it. You know, if we're not, we're not. So it was. It was a very interesting challenge for me from a directorial standpoint, to go through that. But we were very fortunate. We came out on top, and it kind of started. My career started rolling in an even bigger direction at that point. And a lot of it is attributed to Uncharted, because even Josh saw Uncharted before we met, and he was like, dude, that was awesome. Like, that was really cool. I hadn't seen that before. And he felt he was able to trust me, and he was confident that I'd be able to deliver after watching that.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah. It opened up a lot of doors.

[C]

What a pleasant man he is. I've met him.

[A]

He's the best.

[C]

He's crazy.

[A]

He's great.

[C]

He's unexpectedly pleasant.

[A]

I always Say, when people ask me, who are the two guys that you've had the most fun working with? It's you and him. Always. I tell everybody that.

[C]

That's very good.

[B]

Just Canadian.

[A]

No, but he has French Canadian ancestry. Dumal is, I think is like Duhamel. It's on his father's side. He's French.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Very exotic. It sounds like your career has been a mix of a. Go get it. I'm going to make this happen. Tenacious attitude along with a list, like a laundry list of people who say, I believe in what you're doing, and here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to. I'm going to give you a leg up in this direction or this way. How. How does being Canadian play into how you nurture relationships?

[A]

It's a. That's actually. That's a really good question. I always joke, especially now that I live in. In la, I'm in the States. I always. When someone says, oh, you're really nice, I'm like, I'm Canadian. I just lean into it at this point. Yeah, I don't know. I'd say it's performative or not. I think you. Look, I was raised a certain way. You know, you and I talked about this. You know how close we are with our parents. Was raised a certain way, certain etiquette. Be polite, be grateful, thankful. And I've always, always tried to be as genuine as possible when working with people. And so I think that as I was coming up, you know, you could call it this eagerness, you call it desperation in some ways, you call it whatever it is, people could tell that I was hungry for it and that I would go after it. But there was. There was obviously a genuity to it because I really just love making movies and I love storytelling and I love the collaborative process. And then, of course, once you have credits that people have heard of, there's a little bit. There's a willingness to trust you a little bit more, which helps, of course. And so, yeah, I don't know, but I still, certainly, now that I'm in the States, I do feel like I reference me being Canadian quite a bit. So, yeah, I guess it plays into it.

[C]

I see such a catch 22 in success in this industry, as far as you ask people, like, I want to be involved in some projects and do something amazing. And they say, that'd be great, but first we have to see you do some projects and be amazing. It's such a. How. How then do I get my Foot in the door.

[A]

It still happens to me sometimes, honestly. And it's one of those. It's funny though, because I talk to actors and filmmakers, but really I have a lot of relation, I would say I have relationships with actors more than directors at this point. And even those who have had their own TV shows, even those who have starred in massive movies and franchises, there's this feeling of when, when will I get the opportunity for people to stop doubting me? Or this opportunity where people will say, I don't have to question you anymore. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know if you guys,

[C]

when have I proven myself?

[A]

When, when do I have to stop proving myself to you? Because I mean, look, we are as human beings, beings, we're kind of built to walk uphill. You know, you look at the peak of the mountain, you go, that's my first goal. So for me it was make your first movie. And then you get there and you go, okay, was this a fluke? Am I ever going to make another movie? Look at that mountain over there. It's a little higher. Now I want that, I want to make the second movie and then you do it and then you go, well, okay, now I want to work with bigger actors, now I want a bigger budget, now I want a bigger distribution. And it always becomes that thing we always want a little bit more. Even though we've kind of. I try to go back and say, what would sort of 10 year old or 15 year old Alan feel about this? Right? And that kind of grounds me sometimes. And certainly I am incredibly grateful for what I've managed to accomplish in my career thus far. But naturally, of course, I'm always saying, you know, I want, I want the next thing. I want the bigger movie, I want, I want that bigger deal. I want the opportunity for my movie to be on the billboards and, you know, be in front of all the movie theaters and the trailers. So, yeah, I don't know, it's interesting, but there's certainly a lot of people that I've become really friendly with, who I admire and I look up to, and I could only dream to have half of their career and they feel that too. When do I have to stop proving myself?

[B]

Yeah, you always do.

[C]

All right, Allan, give me some. There's a young man or woman out there right now listening who is dreaming about having your career or a career or something similar to it. What advice do you give to them? And then, Alan Tudyk, with all your infinite experience in the industry, you tell me if this advice is going to work at all.

[B]

Okay, good. All right, so judge the advice.

[A]

Don't do it. No, I'm just kidding. I, you know what?

[B]

Can I be the little boys and little girls?

[C]

Yes, you are them. You are the everyman.

[B]

Alan, tell us a story. How do we become like you? How do we get the big career? That's the. And then the boy, he's, his balls dropped early and he says, alan, I'm

[A]

going to quote, I'm going to quote someone who gave me this advice because I think it's single handedly the best advice I've ever been given. I, I asked a producer once upon a time, as he was leaving a Q and A, I was in film school, and I grabbed him and I, I said, I really want a career like yours. I want longevity. I want to be able to make movies, entertain people. Like, what's the trick? What do I have to do? And he looked at me and he said, stamina. And he walked away. And that has hit me now more than ever because I think that obviously stamina is a big part of it, but there's this, you need to have patience. That's a big thing. I continue to learn more and more every day is if you want it, if you want to go after it and you want to foster that talent, talent and the creativity. You also have to master patience and stamina. That's, that's what I would tell people.

[C]

Alan, will it work?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you can't, you can't win unless you're in the game. You know, I think there's a lot of opportunities to quit and to stop and to say, I'm sick of this bullshit. Because it is hard and it is. There are, there are always going to be people who are in decision making positions that have their own agendas that, that, you know, you can't control. So stamina is a good one. That's, that's, it's, that's a good one because it, look at, look at Brandon Frazier. Brandon, man, that guy was in a lot of great movies, doing a lot of fun stuff, very visible, you know, and then he hurts his back. I really don't know exactly what happened to Brandon Fraser, but I think something happened to his back.

[A]

Brendan.

[B]

Anyway, he's out of the game for so long that you're like, ah, Brandon Frazier. Brandon, that's rough. Is kind of. When I would see him, I'd be like, something happened to that guy. Something went down in his life. And the only things I'd hear about him would be like, I think he got a divorce. I think something bad. And then he was in. He did a voice in Doom Patrol because he didn't do the. He didn't do the physical action, but he did. He was one of the main characters in Doom Patrol. Then he came back. He's got an Oscar, man.

[C]

Just.

[B]

I mean that. But how many decades after the Mummy did he disappear? And that's somebody who stays in the game. There's just people who have stayed in it.

[C]

He did hurt his back. And I just want to make sure that we're not saying Brandon. I just want to make sure we're saying Brendan.

[B]

Oh, Brendan. I bet the. I bet the. Hey, computer. Have I been saying Brandon?

[A]

I'm going on breakfast.

[B]

All right, don't get saucy.

[A]

How dare you.

[B]

I'm sorry, you genderless. And I didn't mean to tell you that I didn't use the B word.

[C]

You, too. Kiss and make up.

[B]

All right, no tongues.

[A]

Pass.

[C]

Alan Ungar, before I lose you, there's a. There's a little segment of the show that Alan invented a long time ago that I would love to get to. It's called let's get to know you better.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I know you and you know me.

[C]

Let us get to know you better. Now, this is the part of the show where you tell us something about you that. That we don't know. And, Alan, why don't you start us off just to give him a. Are you looking it up right now?

[B]

I'm looking. I put. I write. I write these down.

[C]

Do you want me to start?

[B]

Yes, please.

[A]

Could you start?

[C]

Do you guys do.

[A]

So you're doing a different one that no one knows yet?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. This is something. We try to educate each other because we know each other, but we want to just try to get to know each other a little better. So this is where we get to know you better. And so this. This little. I was just reminded of this. This is something about me. When I. When I corrected the Brandon Brendan scenario just now, I. Based on the success of Jason Bateman, if. If he is doing well, I will get mistaken for Jason Bateman often. And during these scenarios, they will often call me Justin Bateman. Now, I am not Jason Bateman, so I should not really have a horse in the race. But I always say it's Jason, not Justin. You're conflagging that with Justine Bateman, his sister. But it's Justine and Jason. Why do I feel the need to correct these people when I should Just be. That's not. That's not me. And I keep walking. Like, why do I. I'm out here for Jason Bateman, fighting the fight. It's not Justin. It's Jason. And it's not me. That's. What is it inside me that I am. So I think that's to defend this man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he's a. He seems nice.

[C]

Oh, yeah, he does seem very nice. I met him once. He was very pleasant.

[A]

Yeah, you could have worst doppelgangers.

[C]

He also got me out of a speeding ticket once.

[B]

Oh, because they thought you were him. I got out of a speeding ticket. This is weird, because they thought I was Justine.

[C]

Okay, Alan. Alan Tudyk. What is your. What is your. Get to know you better.

[B]

I don't know if you knew this about me, which is why I'm saying it now. I used to paint. I used to be a painter, like, as a kid, as a artistic outlet. I took art classes from a young age. I was. I would sketch and I would. I bought an oil set at a young age. And then. And then I. Then I realized those take too long. And I was in acrylics. And so after, like when I went to college, even the first time at this little school in Texas, I would always paint a painting on scraps of wood that I would get from the scene shop at. In the drama department. And I trade them for things people would trade me. Packs of cigarettes or moon pies. I would sell my paintings for things I wanted. And I continued to always have paintings going even after I left school and into Juilliard. Until finally I got to a point sort of in right before I left Juilliard, where I. What I wanted to paint. I couldn't get it. The picture in my head, onto the canvas. Like, my. My skill level wasn't where it needed to be. To my. Yeah, I couldn't capture my. My whole thing.

[C]

I. I capped out on talent.

[B]

I needed to go. I need skill. I needed. I needed to go to school. I needed to go. I needed more classes. Also, the other thing about this, that you don't know. And then after that, I quit. I painted one last painting, which was a self portrait portrait. A friend of mine has it in New York. It still survives. Hopefully not. I always wanted her to get rid of it. But whenever I would paint, I would start painting and I would have a good 10 minute. I would start crying. It would make me cry. I would start painting and just the. The. The process of seeing things come to life. And I would Break down crying until I got to, like, this base

[A]

where

[B]

I could connect with the painting more. Like, I had to get rid of.

[C]

Were you crying because it wasn't good enough?

[B]

No, it was more like all the days. Stresses and stuff that's on my mind and all that stuff. I had to get it out of the way to paint.

[C]

This was an outlet for you?

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was. It was a. It was. It was like a therapy. I really enjoyed it.

[C]

And then now you quit because you had no stamina.

[B]

That's right. You know, had I stuck with it, had I gone to classes, had I taken. You know, and I guess I could still pick it up at some point and start again with stamina.

[C]

How do we. I think I know I would have given you that advice. Yeah. I think I know what to send you for your birthday is a couple canvases and a little. One of those little palettes that put their thumb through. And they have the paint on that.

[B]

Yes. Like a palette. You can. Yeah, you get one. You get them paper, you just. I don't know. I haven't done it for so long, but acrylics don't buy me that. Look, I gotta take classes first. I gotta take classes. I got.

[C]

No, I think you just need to start warming up, just opening your heart to it. Just. We'll just see what happens. Alan Unger. Something we don't know about you.

[A]

Not a lot of people know this. I performed at Carnegie hall in 1996.

[B]

Holy.

[C]

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

[A]

Practice.

[B]

Was this the puppetry of the penis thing I read so much about? That was Carnegie Deli.

[A]

It's a oneman show.

[B]

They did it there.

[A]

I.

[B]

Is this salami?

[C]

Jesus.

[B]

I'm sorry. That was a foreskin joke. Can we do your story, please?

[A]

When I was young, my mom really believed that it was. It was, you know, being musical was important and that I should learn an instrument. And so I. I played violin for most of my childhood and when I was eight. So when I was eight years old, I was part of a. Like a conservatory, and we were invited to play Carnegie Hall. And so it was me and about, I would say, 30 other students and. And we did. And, you know, of course, at the time and in my teenage years, it wasn't something that I really ever thought much of again. It wasn't. It was like, okay, whatever. And then as I've gotten older and appreciated art more and obviously what we do. And when I often work with composers, they're like, you know, you're very. Your Ear is really good. Like, where does that come from? And I'm like, oh, okay. And I start. And of course you look back and what a special opportunity. And my mom kept all the programs and the T shirts, shirts that we got from it and. Yeah.

[C]

How old were you at the time?

[A]

I was eight. And I was eight.

[C]

Were you, were you. You and 30 other kids, were you prodigies or were they just like, hey, we're gonna let the kids take a crack at it this afternoon?

[A]

No, listen, we were, I mean, we were very good. We were good. I wouldn't say we were prodigies. I mean, of course.

[B]

Do you remember what you played?

[A]

No, I don't. My mom probably does.

[B]

Would it have been something like Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star? Or would it have been like Brahms was like that?

[A]

No, I would have been. It would have been the classical music. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Music.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And it's funny because my brother was supposed to join and didn't end up going, but he, he still ended up in the program. His name was next to mine, but he never showed up.

[C]

He never went.

[A]

He just bailed on Carnegie Hall. It's no big deal.

[C]

I bet he's still got that program framed up in his house though.

[A]

Yeah, he, he uses it all the time. He's like, oh my God, it's working for my brother. I'm going to tell people I did this.

[C]

But.

[A]

Yeah, not a lot of. It's funny. Not a lot of people, not a lot of people know. And it's not something I talk about very often, but it's one of those things in my past where I'm like, that's actually, as I get older, I appreciate it a lot more. Yeah.

[C]

That's fantastic. I wish that was on your IMDb page. It really should be. I don't. I think that something we need to correct.

[A]

Yeah, there's a, there's probably a photo of me with my mullet down to here that my mom has somewhere that we'll have to, we'll have to, we'll have to upload the photo. Photo somewhere.

[B]

The Canadian mullet.

[C]

Alan. Alan Tudyk. What are you listening to?

[B]

What you listening to? Oh, what am I listening to? Like what? Music?

[C]

Yeah, I need a song, buddy. This is your, this is your moment. I don't want you to forget.

[B]

Well, I didn't, Well, I, I, you know, I, I thought we would only do that when we were doing our own thing because I don't want to

[C]

take away Alan Ungar. You must listen to a lot of music for your films. Like what, What?

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

You want to put in there. You must be on a constant musical discovery journey. What's something people should be listening to right now?

[A]

Oh, you know, it's funny. I always go back to this. I. I honestly listen to a ton of scores. Like, I listen to Hans Zimmer all the time. It's kind of my thing. I've seen him in concert. I. I'm. I feel like I listen to scores more than I listen to actual music. It kind of inspires me when I'm writing or when I'm trying to piece together certain things in prep or when I'm shooting. It's just. I kind of. It's like my fallback. I always listen to Hans Zimmer.

[C]

A friend of mine did. I think it was Destiny 2 video game scores as he was driving across Iceland and he said it was phenomenal.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's cool.

[B]

I'm going to recommend a Canadian band out of respect to all the Canada happening here.

[C]

I like this.

[B]

It's a. A band called the Heavyweights Brass Band. The name of the song is Nueva Orleans and it's off their album Don't Bring Me Down. It's gonna be on the podcast album, the Once We Were Spaceman album. And yeah, it's. It. The. There's there Hispanic speaking, but they are Canadians. And it's a really fun, like, it sounds like. Got a good New Orleans kind of jazz band sound.

[C]

This is fascinating. I can't wait to. I can't wait to give this a listen.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Last question I have for you, Alan Ongar. I like to try to get a. A good sense of this from all the guests we have. Have you ever seen a ghost?

[A]

You're about to open a can of worms. Oh, boy, here we go.

[B]

You saw a ghost when you were.

[A]

No, I have a friend, a very dear friend of mine in Los Angeles. And this part, he is a ghost. He. He's part of the Paranormal Society and I have gone on investigations with him before.

[C]

Okay. Have you seen anything that shook the foundations of everything you believe?

[A]

Absolutely. Multiple times, actually. Sometimes hearing more than seeing, I would say. But certainly a combination. And it's funny because the first time this ever happened to me, it was actually on the same trip where I was at that house party with the con artists. That was an epic trip, clearly. But we went. We went up to a town in Northern California called Porterville. And generally what these guys do is they receive calls or queries or requests from people around the Us. Who. Who will say, hey, something weird's going on in our hotel or this house or this old, you know, institution. And every now and then, they'll go out and they'll investigate. It's pro bono. They don't make money from it. It's.

[C]

It's.

[B]

Every now and then. Every now and then, we get around to it.

[A]

If we get around. Well, there's. So. They actually get so many requests, so they can't do all of them. And they often will go to Tombstone. You know, they'll go to certain places where. Where things have happened, where they will. Where there was a historical event that people will often say, hey, like, the ghost of so and so is haunting this place. And I went with them to this town called Porterville. And it was. You know, I was laughing the whole drive up. I'm like, this is the dumbest thing in the world. Like, what's gonna happen? Like, oh, someone's gonna jump out and scare me. And I remember when I first got convinced was they do this thing called flashlight play, where you bring, you know, the mag lights, the colorful flashlights that you twist. They're different colors.

[B]

Nathan. Nathan's never. What is this?

[C]

Seven of these.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they do this. This thing where to start a conversation, encounter, whatever you want to call it, they will lay the flashlights on the ground, and you'll spend. I guess it's usually about 60 minutes. You'll give yourself 60 minutes to determine if there is energy in the space that you're in. And I remember we brought the flashlights, so there's no, like, trickery or anything. Like, I. I brought them with me, and they laid them out. And I remember I was with a friend of mine that went with. With our. With our buddy Jerry, who's part of the society, and someone started saying, hey, is there. Is there anyone with us here tonight? I'm like, yeah, we're right here. He's like, we're not talking to you. And I was like, oh, okay. And after a few minutes, I just remember getting bored, and I wanted to pull my phone out because I'm like, this is really stupid. And then I said, is there a man with us here tonight? Is there a woman here with us tonight? And somebody. Is there a child with us here tonight? And the flashlight I brought.

[B]

Stop answering, Alan.

[A]

The flashlight I brought started to flicker on the ground, and all these weird things start to happen. And over the course of that night, I would just say that, yeah, it changed my perspective quite a bit. And I would go home and tell people about it. And everyone thought I was. Was a lunatic. But. But yeah, so I would. And certainly. So if. Yeah, the answer is yes, I've definitely. You weren't expecting that. But, you know.

[C]

Okay. Okay, I. Now. Now I know I'm getting.

[B]

I wanted a possession. I wanted. I wanted some vomiting green sort of spectre fluid, but flashlights?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I'm a skeptic. Flashlights. And there's other. There's other strange phenomenon that happen. I mean, what's interesting about a lot of these groups who are not trying to do this for fame or money is that their focus is to debunk more than anything, right? So if it's okay, it's something in your house, it's the air conditioning, it's. This is causing this effect. This is why you're seeing this. This is why you're hearing that. But very often, if they cannot debunk it and it's sort of just chalked up to phenomenon, right? Like energy.

[B]

I thought I had a ghost, but I think I may have just had some woman living above my refrigerator in a cabinet that was sneaking out at night who has since snuck completely out of my house. And I can't find her. But so debunked. And I didn't even need Jerry for that.

[C]

So. All right, Alan, what you coming up for? You Death Stranding. Is that the. Based on the video game? Are you doing something there?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Alex, who course introduced us. We decided a few years ago that we should start looking for properties that, you know, people are excited about that we could bring our, you know, creativity and knowledge to. And so that was the first one. So that's. That's at 8:24 right now. So we'll see. We'll see what happens there. And then there's about three or four others that we are in the process of acquiring for our slate right now. So I'll be producing that with Alex, which of course is, you know, I try to produce or at least have a slate of movies that I can produce in between directing. I think it makes me a better director. I think it allows me the ability to, you know, tell more stories, especially if I don't feel I'm the right guy to direct it, but just allows me to get more storytelling out there for people.

[C]

Great Driver punt Showdown. System shock. Where can people find London Calling right now?

[A]

London Calling's on Hulu. London is on Hulu. Yeah.

[C]

I started watching this. I. I'm really excited about this movie. I can't wait to finish it. Don't. No spoilers, please. It's interesting.

[A]

It's fun. Yeah. It's. It's. It's sort of a throwback to Those sort of 90s buddy cop movies. It's very irreverent. It's very reverent. It's. We shot that in Cape Town, which I think is probably my favorite place I've ever shot.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Because why would you shoot LA for LA when you can shoot, you know,

[B]

in Cape Town for la?

[A]

It was Cape Town for la. You know, at this point point, I had figured, okay, guys, I doubled, you know, rural southern Georgia for 1980s Canada. I could probably double, you know, Cape Town for California, no problem. But, yeah, no, just. It was too expensive to shoot in la. Way too expensive. And so we ended up flying across the world instead of staying at home. But what came with it was a. A wonderful, memorable experience about, I think, the most beautiful place I've ever been, truly. And Josh. Josh felt the same way. I mean, we didn't want to leave. I mean, he had to leave because he was having a baby, but if

[C]

he wasn't, goodness, he would have stayed.

[B]

I didn't even know.

[C]

That's exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But what a cast. Rick Hoffman is from Suits. Lewis Litt, who plays Lewis Litt on Suits Boy. I love him, but I just. I love him. I love hating him. I love loving him.

[B]

He's.

[A]

He's detestable in our movie. Yeah, he turned it up to 10, maybe 11, but, yeah, no, very blessed. Very, very blessed with the cast. And Jeremy Ray Taylor, who is, of course, incredible in the IT films, and Aiden Gillen, who has just been one of those incredible character actors. I mean, Jesus, the Wire, Game of Thrones. I mean, he's.

[C]

Yes, I got very.

[A]

I was very blessed with an amazing cast in that film.

[B]

Aiden Gillen's Badass.

[C]

Alan, thank you for doing this. What an absolute pleasure.

[B]

What a treat.

[C]

This is the longest I've gotten to speak. Speak to you since. Oh, well, we had dinner the other day. We had dinner like we did.

[A]

But let's just say this is the longest. It's. It's better for the podcast.

[C]

Yeah, it's perfect. I like that. I like that. That's a producer in you. All right, Alan, take us out.

[B]

All right, ladies and gentlemen, this has been another episode of Once We Were Spaceman as we cruise into this space center. Space station. That's what we're calling it, a space. The center of the space station where we'll redock and refine fuel till next time we out of here.

[C]

Well, you made it all the way to the end credits. Thank you for listening to Once We Were Spaceman. Remember, you can always head over to our Patreon for bonus content, longer episodes, and a chance to take home some incredible crap.

[B]

If you love the show, please leave

[C]

us a review and tell your friends. If you didn't love the show, keep it to yourself. This podcast is a collision 33 production. Specifically, we are produced by Michelle Chapman, Siobhan Homan, and Josh Levy. All the recording and post services are handled by Rabid Grin Productions, and our theme music is by the brilliant Carl

[A]

Sosa and Joshua Moore.

[C]

And as always, our artwork was created by Louis Jensen. We'll see you next time. This correction was brought to you by Alan Tudyk.