Once We Were Knee-Deep in Chocolate with Bill Roe | Episode 28

Summary

Once We Were Spacemen — Episode 28

“Once We Were Knee-Deep in Chocolate with Bill Rowe”

Hosts: Nathan Fillion & Alan Tudyk
Guest: Bill Rowe (cinematographer, director, industry veteran)
Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a rich, nostalgic, and humor-filled conversation with Bill Rowe, whose lifelong journey through the film and television industry began as a 12-year-old wading through the “Chocolate River” on the set of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, thanks to his father’s role as First Assistant Director. Nathan Fillion and Alan Tudyk guide listeners through Bill’s extraordinary behind-the-scenes stories—spanning early labor in polluted rivers, operating under industry union rules, working with legends like Gene Wilder, Tim Burton, and Robin Williams, and ultimately shaping iconic shows like The X-Files, Castle, and The Rookie.

The tone is fun, respectful, and full of insider anecdotes, making this episode a goldmine for fans of film production, pop culture history, and anyone curious about the untold contributions of camera operators and directors.

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Key Discussion Points by Segment

1. Childhood in Chocolate (00:00 – 07:29)

• The Chocolate River Job: At just 12, Bill worked on the set of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory in Munich, tasked with removing foam from the chocolate river so it wouldn’t show on camera.
  • "An 11-year-old Bill Rowe in hip waders in the chocolate river of Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, scooping out the foam. A job for Oompa Loompas, if I'm not mistaken." — Nathan Fillion (03:11)
• Family Affair: Bill’s dad was the First AD; his younger brother was a stand-in for Charlie and even had lines in the film.
• Rare Memorabilia: Bill still owns an original golden ticket, a production slate, Wonka bars, and screenplays.
  • "They just sold one [golden ticket] recently." — Bill Rowe (06:50)
  • "How much do you go for?" — Nathan Fillion
  • "A couple hundred grand." — Bill Rowe (06:53)
• Vivid Memories: Testing the infamous “bad egg” trap door, seeing fellow kids get stuck in tubes, and mingling with actors.

2. Growing Up in Hollywood (07:30 – 14:53)

• Film Set Normalcy: Bill’s early exposure to the industry—flying in a bubble helicopter to Paint Your Wagon's set, crewing on location, and learning the ropes.
  • "My dad would be in the back with the director, Josh Logan, and... they'd throw me in and I'd sit on the bubble, on the glass. And fly to work." — Bill Rowe (09:54)
• From Grip to Camera: Bill initially wanted to be a grip; his father pushed him toward camera work.
• Origin of Ambition: A cameraman’s birthday card at age 12 predicted his future as a cinematographer—a comment that stuck, despite Bill’s early love for sports.

3. Breaking In and Industry Lessons (14:54 – 22:28)

• Labor Laws and Pathways In: Tales of technicalities—working in the Warner Bros. loading room for free, sneaking through union group rules, and getting “grandfathered” into the camera department via Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band.
  • "The beginning of your career is wrought with labor law violations. 11-year-olds in rivers..." — Nathan Fillion (14:35)
• The Union Shuffle: Bill candidly recounts getting fired for working out of union order, surviving ups and downs, and fighting just to keep a condo.

4. From Camera Assistant to Operator (22:29 – 26:51)

• First Operating Job: Moved up by cinematographer Vic Kemper on Hot to Trot (Bobcat Goldthwait, John Candy)—a leap risking his house and career.
  • "When you get promoted, you get promoted to the bottom of the next rung." — Nathan Fillion (23:04)
• Operator’s Art: Bill describes the technical skill and “comfort” he felt as a camera operator, navigating the physical demands and creative problem-solving on set.

5. Hollywood Legends, Set Stories, and Innovations (26:52 – 32:00)

• Stories from Iconic Films:
  • Mr. Mom, The Lonely Guy, Pee Wee’s Big Adventure (never saw Paul Reubens break character), Toys (Robin Williams)—set-building ingenuity, like Mylar tricks and hand-painted cityscapes.
  • “He never saw Paul. You only saw Pee Wee.” — Alan Tudyk / Nathan Fillion (25:09)
• Practical Effects Creativity:
  • Seabiscuit anecdote: Creating a magical “earth moves” moment by startling a tree full of birds instead of using fans for a dramatic effect.
  • "Here's two wedges... whack. And the whole birds go... and I didn't tell anybody I did it. And it's in the movie." — Bill Rowe (31:00)

6. Pioneering TV Visuals (X Files, Castle, The Rookie) (32:01 – 46:15)

• The X Files Era:
  • Bill joined as cinematographer when the show moved from Vancouver to Los Angeles; saw it transform the industry.
  • "It changed my life, changed everybody's life that was associated with it... I would get in my car at four or five o' clock in the morning after working 16 hours and I would go, that was pretty freaking cool." — Bill Rowe (35:17)
  • Fox made The X Files the "look" everyone wanted; Bill credits the show as the original "game-changer."
• Castle, The Rookie, and Beyond:
  • First met Nathan Fillion on the Castle pilot—eventually became director and supervising director on The Rookie.
• Role Evolutions:
  • Talks through the industry hierarchy for camera operators, DPs, directors, and the challenge of “starting at the bottom” with each step up.
  • Insights on the jump to supervising director—balancing creative vision and series consistency with supporting guest directors.

7. Directing Style & Industry Wisdom (46:16 – 49:30)

• Directing Philosophy: Bill feels most at home directing, leveraging his lifetime of technical knowledge and collaborative spirit.
  • "I have control of the look. I have control of how we're going to shoot it... it's awfully nice having a cast that is up for anything." — Bill Rowe (40:46)
• Collaboration and Crew Culture: Praises The Rookie’s positive, professional environment. Shares that a big part of his job is to ensure consistency in look and tone, coaching and supporting incoming directors.

8. Memorable Banter & Notable Quotes (Throughout)

• Alan’s signature humor, Nathan’s admiration, and Bill’s humility shine. Some highlights:
  • On Memorabilia:
    "They just sold [a golden ticket] recently." — Bill Rowe (06:50)
    "A couple hundred grand." — Bill Rowe (06:53)
  • On Industry Change:
    "Now we just fix it with CGI. You had to do it then." — Bill Rowe (29:27)
    "It's hard. You have to, you know, believe in yourself that you can do this. Nobody’s giving you a guarantee..." — Bill Rowe (23:52)
  • On Directing:
    "The most comfortable thing I ever did in my life was operate a camera." — Bill Rowe (19:39)
  • On Crew Respect:
    "Why are you guys so scared of this guy? Everything changes when he comes in the room." — Nathan Fillion (38:59)
  • On Consistency:
    "Trying to maintain some consistency... is that part of your job?" — Nathan Fillion (45:54)
    "You try to keep them on track..." — Bill Rowe (46:15)

9. “Get to Know You” Round (51:04 – 61:31)

• Nathan’s Story: Kicked a rock (thrown by his brother) instead of a Hacky Sack as a child—ended up with bone chip surgery decades later.
  (53:58)
• Bill’s Confession: Fiercely competitive even as a child; can’t let things go until they’re right.
  (54:24)
• Alan’s Teen Rebellion: Invented a meaningless “gang” at school (Stubbs), accidentally incited suspicion, and had to hide from angry classmates.
  (56:01 – 60:53)

10. Parting Wisdom & Reflections (61:44 – end)

• Advice for Creatives:
  • "Just don't give up. If that's your dream, don't give up. The world can see your stuff on a little computer now... there are so many paths." — Bill Rowe (51:16)
• First Podcast Nerves:
  • Bill shares this was his first-ever podcast or in-depth interview.
  • "This is your first interview, Bill. Your first interview ever." — Alan Tudyk (61:31)
  • "It was great, actually. I had fun. It's... you guys make it very comfortable..." — Bill Rowe (61:45)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• "An 11 year old Bill Rowe in hip waders in the chocolate river of Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, scooping out the foam. A job for Oompa Loompas, if I'm not mistaken." — Nathan Fillion (03:11)
• "He [Gene Wilder] said to say hi if I ever met you." — Bill Rowe to Alan Tudyk (12:10)
• "When you get promoted, you get promoted to the bottom of the next rung." — Nathan Fillion (23:04)
• "The most comfortable thing I ever did in my life was operate a camera." — Bill Rowe (19:39)
• "It changed my life, changed everybody’s life that was associated with it." — Bill Rowe, on The X Files (35:17)
• "I have control... it's awfully nice having a cast that's up for anything." — Bill Rowe, on directing (40:46)
• "Now we just fix it with CGI. You had to do it then." — Bill Rowe (29:27)
• “Just don’t give up. If that’s your dream, don’t give up.” — Bill Rowe (51:16)

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Memorable Moments & Banter

• Alan’s recurring confusion of Bill Rowe with Mike Rowe—setting the playful tone early (01:35)
• Hilarious Oompa Loompa cigarettes banter and trapdoor stories (08:41)
• Alan and Nathan marveling at Bill’s collection of original Wonka props (06:30–07:16)
• Extended riffing on Hollywood union “group one, group two, group three” hierarchies (14:53–17:51)
• On-set anecdotes about secret gestures (“old man hand”) and making the crew nervous (50:23)
• Revelations about being secretly competitive and "not handling losing well" in youth (54:55)
• Alan’s infamous “Stubbs” gang story and narrow escape from high school mayhem (56:03–60:53)

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Episode Flow & Tone

The conversation is organic, warm, and full of laughter, with Nathan and Alan expertly drawing out stories that give listeners a sense of the camaraderie and quirks that define behind-the-camera life in Hollywood. Bill Rowe’s humility and wisdom shine as he shares both successes and setbacks, while Nathan and Alan deliver constant comic relief and infectious curiosity.

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Suggested Listening Guide (Selected Timestamps)

• [00:00–07:29] — Bill’s chocolate river origin story & Willy Wonka set memories
• [12:04–14:53] — Industry break-in, labor law loopholes, union tales
• [22:29–26:51] — First steps as a camera operator, facing industry hierarchy
• [28:36–31:12] — Toys and Seabiscuit: practical effects ingenuity
• [34:14–36:09] — The X Files legacy
• [38:59–40:46] — Directing, set culture, crew dynamics
• [51:04–54:55] — Personal revelations: competitiveness, sibling mischief, and high school hooliganism
• [61:44–End] — Reflections and first-podcast jitters

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Final Takeaway

If you're curious about how classic movies and hit TV shows are made, or you want inside stories from someone who’s literally been “knee-deep in chocolate” and then rose to the top of television, this is an essential listen. Bill Rowe’s decades of craft and attitude of collaboration are a masterclass in the changing (and enduring) art of filmmaking.

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For even more laughs and wisdom, listen to the unfiltered banter and bonus content by joining the podcast’s Patreon community.

Transcript

[Nathan Fillion]

What age were you when this photo was taken?

[Bill Rowe]

I think 12.

[Nathan Fillion]

The reason you were in this river is because they didn't want foam showing up on camera. He goes, bill, please illuminate. What was the project that you were working on?

[Bill Rowe]

Well, it was a movie called Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

[Alan Tudyk]

Once we were spacemen Spacemen, spacemen. I tend to play weird people, usually aliens and robots and things that don't have romance.

[Nathan Fillion]

I once didn't get a job where they were looking for a Nathan Fillion type. Once we were spacemen Once we were spacemen. Alan, would you do the honors to get us rolling? Oh, God, yes.

[Alan Tudyk]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome again to another episode of Once We Were Spacemen. Because one time we were spacemen. Space final frontier. And during the frontier times, people went without. They ate their horses, they ate one another with Alan Tudyk and Nathan Fillion.

[Nathan Fillion]

I tuned out for a second there and I came back. We were eating horses. Where. How did that.

[Alan Tudyk]

Well, Smallpox obviously came about. I didn't really hit on that too hard, but somebody, we gotta eat something.

[Nathan Fillion]

Now any listener out there may not know Bill Rowe, but I know, I know Bill Rowe.

[Alan Tudyk]

He does the thing with all the odd jobs.

[Nathan Fillion]

That's Mike Rowe.

[Alan Tudyk]

Ah, yeah, yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

That's not. No relation.

[Alan Tudyk]

Bill's brother Mike.

[Nathan Fillion]

Different row. So this is Rose Sons, the W. But the older the listener is, the more they're going to realize how heavy handed Bill has been in the zeitgeist of their pop culture revelations. They're growing up, so we're pretty old.

[Alan Tudyk]

So we're going to love this shit.

[Nathan Fillion]

We're going to have a field day. So Bill, before you got here, first of all, welcome. Thank you for doing this, Bill.

[Alan Tudyk]

Thank you, man.

[Bill Rowe]

Thank you.

[Nathan Fillion]

Before you got here, Bill, this morning, bright and early, I sent everyone a photo. Everyone in Once We Were Spaceman team, and Alan as well, a photo of a young man in hip waders wading through what must be the most polluted waterway I've ever seen, with some sort of strange kind of background in a 70s style photo. And I think you know exactly the photo I'm talking about.

[Bill Rowe]

Mm.

[Nathan Fillion]

What age were you when this photo was taken?

[Bill Rowe]

I think 12. 11 or 12.

[Nathan Fillion]

You were employed in what country?

[Bill Rowe]

Munich, Germany.

[Nathan Fillion]

You were in Munich, Germany?

[Bill Rowe]

Bavaria Studios.

[Alan Tudyk]

What year?

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, what year was that?

[Alan Tudyk]

Probably.

[Nathan Fillion]

We can. We can certainly. We don't. We can. We can look this up. We have a computer that does this for us.

[Alan Tudyk]

Computer. What year was that?

[Bill Rowe]

1970.

[Nathan Fillion]

The reason you were in this river is because they didn't want foam showing up on camera. He goes, bill, please illuminate. What was the project that you were working on?

[Bill Rowe]

Well, it was a movie called Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Oh, the original classic.

[Nathan Fillion]

An 11 year old bill Rowe in hip waders in the chocolate river of Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, scooping out the foam. A job for Oompa Loompas, if I'm not mistaken.

[Alan Tudyk]

And you were saying that they're pretty useless.

[Bill Rowe]

It was one of those jobs. I mean, literally, we lived in an apartment and it was like 20 minutes. So I would leave the apartment, 11, 12 years old, walk down the street, jump on a trolley by myself. Trolley would drop me off at the studio in Bavaria Studios and I would walk through, wave to the guard and go to work every day.

[Alan Tudyk]

Wow. At 12 years old in a river of chocolate.

[Nathan Fillion]

Because you had a connection to this production, Bill, tell us what the connection was. Why were you there?

[Alan Tudyk]

You found a golden ticket.

[Bill Rowe]

My dad was the first ad so we all went there, the whole family, and we spent about eight months, six. Eight months there. It was a huge movie. And at the time I missed a whole year of school.

[Alan Tudyk]

Did you get held back because of that?

[Bill Rowe]

And then when we came back at the school, my mom was talking to the principal and everything. And the principal goes, oh, he learned more there than he would have heard here. So just continue going, wow, every kid's

[Alan Tudyk]

dream, skip school to go to the chocolate factory for a year.

[Nathan Fillion]

So just a quick overview. It started. Yay about there. In through your life, you started working in the entertainment industry. You were a camera assistant, you were a cinematographer, you were a director of photography then. Director. Which is then where we, where you and I met. This is. And this is why you're here today. Because our paths finally crossed at some point. Now let's go back in time.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, thank you. Because Nathan, who gives a shit? He was in the Chocolate Factory. He was with Gene Wilder.

[Nathan Fillion]

Name drop. I'm just trying to give some context as for why Bill is here.

[Alan Tudyk]

Because we're lucky bastards, that's why he's here.

[Nathan Fillion]

Absolutely true. Now, Bill, was this a situation where you were saying, dad, you, you've got to get me into this chocolate factory? Or were you saying, dad, I don't, I don't want your life, I don't

[Bill Rowe]

want to do this for.

[Nathan Fillion]

What was the situation?

[Alan Tudyk]

How did you.

[Bill Rowe]

I don't think I said anything. We just worked. I mean, my brother was young, two years younger than me. He's actually has lines in the movie. And we're both in the movie at certain times. My brother was the stand in for Peter Ostrom.

[Alan Tudyk]

The kid?

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, the kid. And so my brother was a stand in. So he hung out with that whole cast because they were all much younger than us, than me. They were pretty young. They were like tens and nines. And he still keeps in touch with them.

[Alan Tudyk]

It's kind of crazy, really.

[Bill Rowe]

I know. We were all part of that whole group. And I worked. So basically I worked for the special effects department. So we. Wait.

[Alan Tudyk]

What lines did your brother have?

[Bill Rowe]

Just in case it's in the beginning of the movie when they're in the classroom and he says the odds of whatever it is. 1500, whatever that line is. Cute little blonde kid says it.

[Alan Tudyk]

How cool. You're saying he hooked up with Veruca Salt and they. That's such a young age.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I think it was Veroca.

[Alan Tudyk]

I'm kidding.

[Nathan Fillion]

I kid now. Alan, you kind of touched on it. Bill, you actually have in your possession an original golden ticket.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, wow.

[Nathan Fillion]

I do. And I hear stories about this, about the size of the safe it's kept in and who has a golden ticket left and what condition they're in. And people like offering to buy it and wanting to. That's a piece of Americana film history that. I mean, that's a short list of people who have an original golden ticket.

[Bill Rowe]

They just sold one recently.

[Nathan Fillion]

How much do you go for?

[Bill Rowe]

A couple hundred grand.

[Alan Tudyk]

What?

[Bill Rowe]

Really?

[Nathan Fillion]

Wow.

[Bill Rowe]

But I also have. Which is like, really interesting is I have a. The original slate from the movie.

[Alan Tudyk]

Even cooler.

[Bill Rowe]

Chalk slate. Yeah. And we have. We have Wonka bars and we have, you know, a bunch of couple things and original screenplays. We have like a whole group.

[Alan Tudyk]

I'm sorry, you. You have Wonka bars from back in the day?

[Bill Rowe]

Well, they were just, you know, plastic ones.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, I see. Good, good, good, good. Okay.

[Bill Rowe]

No, they're not real chocolate.

[Nathan Fillion]

Just dust. And they never make it under the lights.

[Alan Tudyk]

Just roaches.

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm. So now I'm just thinking, Bill, I. In my short 30 year span in this industry, I've. I witness advances that have happened. If you're talking about chalk slates, they're digital. Now, you must have witnessed many technological improvement over the. How many years you've been doing this. Not bell. Since you were 11.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, 60.

[Nathan Fillion]

Is that all?

[Alan Tudyk]

Wow. So did Augusta Bloop get caught in a tube? Like, did he real. I mean, I've heard stories. I know we're moving on, but I just want to know. I Heard there was. It's possibly just an urban legend. He actually did get. Had to sit in there for hours.

[Bill Rowe]

No, he didn't sit for hours. But he did get stuck. He did get stuck.

[Alan Tudyk]

He did get stuck.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

Like per the script or after they said cut, he was like.

[Nathan Fillion]

Or like, how are we going to get this kid out of there?

[Bill Rowe]

I remember, you know what he used to do? It was really cool. You know, the trapdoor, the egg thing, when the girl. Yeah. So I had to test that. So I was the guinea pig doing a trap door. That is the strangest feeling ever.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, that's great.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah. So I did all that stuff. It was fun.

[Nathan Fillion]

I bet.

[Alan Tudyk]

Did you bum any cigarettes off of the Oompa Loompas? I feel like they might have been a corrupting force.

[Bill Rowe]

I don't know that my brother was still with Rusty. He's a famous. He did a whole bunch of stuff like that. Rusty something in it. And he. My brother kept in touch with him. I think he passed recently.

[Nathan Fillion]

Now, I've heard origin stories of people saying, oh, I loved movies so much and I just. I wanted to be in there.

[Bill Rowe]

And I.

[Nathan Fillion]

And I jumped the fence to go get. But you were. This was a factor your life. This is. Your dad packed a lunch every day and went to work on a set. And so this was just kind of a normalcy for you. Is that how you glided into the industry?

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I think. I think I just. Growing up in it. I mean, listen, my dad, when we were kids, like every summer we went somewhere. So my dad did what? Paint your wagon? Right. The huge musical up in Oregon. And I. This was crazy. I flew into my first Lear jet with Alan J. Lerner, the composer.

[Alan Tudyk]

No way.

[Bill Rowe]

At a Van Nuys airport. Flew up to Bend, Oregon. I mean, just crazy stuff. I used to fly to work in a helicopter. You know the bubble ones, the little two seaters.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, the mash copters.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

My dad would be in the back with the director, Josh Logan, and they would say, okay, come on, kid. And they throw me in and I'd sit on the bubble, on the glass.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, no way.

[Bill Rowe]

And fly to work.

[Nathan Fillion]

I don't know that that's crazy. I don't know that that's FAA approved seating. Wow. We need them for ballast right in the tip, otherwise we're gonna float backwards. Now, at the time, were you saying, oh, my God, this is insane what I'm doing? Or at the time was it just old hat?

[Bill Rowe]

You know, you kind of fit in. The crews are always. Listen the crews are always kind of cool to kids when they come, especially if you're on a location. You see them all the time. So I always wanted to be a grip because when you're a kid, you know, you build things, right? So they're building crack and they got wedges and you got all these things and you're hauling stuff and you're cutting wood and you're building all these. And so as a kid, it's like the greatest thing ever.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, they're big, strong men running around doing man stuff. Yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

And was like, great. And my dad at one point said, kid, you're not going to be in a grip. You're going to get in camp. And that's how. That's how it happened.

[Nathan Fillion]

Your dad made you.

[Bill Rowe]

Kind of made me. But it was really funny. On Willy Wonka, I got to know the cameraman really well, and I learned some stuff, you know, kind of keeping an eye on watching these things. And at one point, he wrote me a birthday card and said, kid, you're going to be a great cinematographer. One day, 12 years old.

[Nathan Fillion]

That stuck.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

That is crazy. Did that stick? Did that put something in your mind to say, well, I'm going to keep an eye on this?

[Bill Rowe]

If he.

[Nathan Fillion]

If he believes in me.

[Bill Rowe]

I wanted to play football and baseball. I didn't care about this industry.

[Nathan Fillion]

So it was. I don't want your life, dad?

[Bill Rowe]

No, not really. I think we all knew. All my brothers were all in it. We all knew that it was eventually going to, you know, we would take over.

[Nathan Fillion]

Were you any good at football and baseball?

[Bill Rowe]

I played college football and baseball a little bit. And eventually, you know, I got hurt and all that stuff, and it was like, okay, it's time to go to work.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, so it wasn't just a pipe dream. You were actually. You had some legs.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah. And.

[Alan Tudyk]

No, his legs got broken. He pretty much. Then he got into it.

[Bill Rowe]

I think it was a neck, you know. And then I started working. I mean, you want me to go down this road about.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, yes, yes.

[Alan Tudyk]

Just real quick, before we do Gene Wilder, did you talk to him at all? Did he mention my name?

[Bill Rowe]

Big hero. Yeah, he said to say hi if I ever met you.

[Alan Tudyk]

Thank God.

[Bill Rowe]

That's.

[Alan Tudyk]

That's what I needed. Thank you. I'll stop interrupting now.

[Bill Rowe]

So after I was done working, I was still kind of going to school, and I would. I got in somehow at the Warner Brothers loading room where they. The old days, you know, you didn't load film, you took the mags after shooting and put it into the studio loading room. And everybody kind of went through that

[Alan Tudyk]

loading room like the mail room of film work.

[Bill Rowe]

Correct. And you would put your. You take it, you. You put your magazines that you shot, you put it by the door. And the drive teamster would come get them, take them over, and they'd give you two new ones. And that's how they kept track of all these movies we did. And that's how it worked. And so what I. I started working there for free. And I would go to school in the morning and I'd get there at 12 o' clock and I worked till like 8 or 10 and then I would go home and I. And you did it for trying to get in the door to become a camera assistant.

[Alan Tudyk]

So it's like an internship. OG Internship.

[Bill Rowe]

Correct. So I was doing this for pretty much a year. And then the guy that ran the department wasn't a very nice man, and he said, kid, go back to school. We don't need you here. After a year of working free there. Oh, correct. And then, and then my dad, eventually, about a couple years a year or so later, my dad did a movie called sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band.

[Nathan Fillion]

Wow. Right. Alan, you're gonna. You're for a handful of these, man.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah. And so it was Peter Frampton and the Bee Gees, all that stuff.

[Nathan Fillion]

Name drop.

[Bill Rowe]

And one of the ways to get into union is if you worked for that company. So I was working for RSO Records, they were producing the movie and I worked for them. And so eventually when the RSO became signatory with the ia, I was grandfathered in as a camera.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh.

[Bill Rowe]

So that's how I got.

[Alan Tudyk]

So your grandfather got you into the business. I see.

[Nathan Fillion]

Kind of first your father than your grandma. Gotcha.

[Bill Rowe]

The crazy part was my dad, they paid me for 30 days being a camera guy. Right. You have to get 30 days. It was 30 straight days to get in the union. And then I was part of that company. And then when we got transitioned over to the IA now they had to take me because I had my 30 days. So when the movie started, I had to pay back that 30 days.

[Nathan Fillion]

Wow. I feel like the beginning of your. Your career is wrought with labor law violations. 11 year olds in rivers and working, getting paid and slipping in and then paying the money, giving the money back. This is. Sounds like a rough start.

[Bill Rowe]

Turned out okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh yeah, sure.

[Alan Tudyk]

But he's young, so it's.

[Nathan Fillion]

At the time where you was a starving student, were you just eking by

[Bill Rowe]

and just eking by trying to do. And there's a whole other. I can go into other stuff where I got in trouble with the union because in those days it was group threes, group twos and group ones. So basically all the group ones had to be working before the group twos can work, and all the group twos had to be working before the group three. Well, you get in and you're a group three. So hopefully it's busy and. And of course, I went on this big movie called Legend of the Lone Ranger.

[Alan Tudyk]

This is great. Before you get to that, was John lennon Always high.

[Nathan Fillion]

Sgt.

[Alan Tudyk]

Pepper's lonely heart Club Band. You mentioned the Bee Gees. You mentioned Frampton, but wasn't there. Weren't the Beatles. I mean, the Beatles had to be around somewhere.

[Bill Rowe]

No, never saw. Oh, never really.

[Alan Tudyk]

So they were. What were the Bee Gees and Frampton? They were the producing team there, or they were. Frampton did all the animation, I think.

[Bill Rowe]

What's the guy's name? Roger Stigwood that owned RSL Records. He was a guy.

[Alan Tudyk]

He was the guy who was around. And the Beatles were off growing their hair, so. Singing on the roofs.

[Nathan Fillion]

Group one, group two, group three. You were a group three. Did you slide in somewhere you weren't supposed to bring in the group? Yep.

[Bill Rowe]

So I was doing this movie in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I literally got pulled into the office. And I knew. I knew the cameraman, I knew the director since I was a kid. And the union made me. They fired me, and I had to go home and I couldn't work. I could. I still have the letter to this day sending me home. And I just bought a condo.

[Alan Tudyk]

I just.

[Bill Rowe]

It was crazy. Oh, and I couldn't work for a year.

[Nathan Fillion]

This is a much rougher start than I've ever known about.

[Bill Rowe]

Bill.

[Nathan Fillion]

I've known about some of your beginning stories, but the hardships here, the. The hiccups, the. This is fascinating because. Yeah, clearly not a smooth journey.

[Alan Tudyk]

What caused the firing?

[Bill Rowe]

Again, it was because I was a group three.

[Nathan Fillion]

Then who would hire you if you were a group three? You, you, you just. You, you. What, did you lie on your resume and put group one in there?

[Alan Tudyk]

I think the.

[Bill Rowe]

The camera guys just who hired me just didn't even care. And they just figured I was going to be out of the state. Nobody's going to care. And then eventually.

[Alan Tudyk]

And then the number cop came along and was like, where's your number, mister? And get out of here. And he worked. He was kind enough to write you a letter to keep for the rest of your life.

[Bill Rowe]

Yes.

[Nathan Fillion]

Well, it's harder on you. I feel like they should have gone for the guy who hired you. He. It's his fault for not going for

[Alan Tudyk]

group ones or just give you a. Make you a group one.

[Bill Rowe]

I think they all basically knew. They just were trying to get.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, the whole thing smells like group two.

[Bill Rowe]

That's the group one.

[Alan Tudyk]

This stinks like a number two. If I've ever smelled one. This is it.

[Nathan Fillion]

Okay. And now you. Eventually, though, do you get it? You get into group one eventually.

[Bill Rowe]

I think they dropped it. A couple years later, they dropped the whole grouping thing.

[Nathan Fillion]

You were able to keep the condo. Now you're. At this point, you're on. You're on camera. You're a camera assistant. When do you. When do you start operating?

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, gosh. I started operating on a movie called Hot to Trot. Talking Horse Movie. Remember that?

[Nathan Fillion]

I have a memory of this VHS video with like the Blockbuster or something, like seeing this. What was this movie case? The movie box. I have this memory now.

[Bill Rowe]

I have it here somewhere.

[Nathan Fillion]

Is that somebody who says, hey, kid, it's your time. Step up. Who's the person that makes that?

[Alan Tudyk]

This is Bobcat. This is a Bobcat Goldthwait.

[Bill Rowe]

That's right.

[Alan Tudyk]

With John Candy, Dabney Coleman. How cool. A lot of great people. Virginia Madsen was in this. Gilbert Godfrey, who's the guy who says,

[Nathan Fillion]

let's go leg up, it's your time to come up.

[Bill Rowe]

The cinematographer, a guy named Vic Kemper, was really nice. I did like 10 movies with this guy and he was the one that moved me up from a second camera. Second like a loader and everything. He moved me up to be a first, and then he moved me up to be an operator.

[Nathan Fillion]

What is it you have to do in front of the cinematographer for someone to say, hey, it's your time. What do you.

[Bill Rowe]

What, what.

[Nathan Fillion]

What makes you rise above?

[Bill Rowe]

You know, I really don't know. I was never one of these guys that I had these goals. I want to be this. I want to do this. You know, I was never one of those guys that would go to the cameraman and say, hey, I want to move up. Can you move me up? I was. I never did any of that stuff. I think it's being low key and watching you work and how you work and professional whatever you are. And I think people look at it and say, hey, I want to help this guy, or he deserves a move up. Or he's. I think he's talented enough to move

[Nathan Fillion]

up do you feel like you were talented? Do you feel like you had an eye for something? Do you feel like you were a good. Did a good job?

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I worked really hard. I took really pride in what I was doing, whether I was a camera assistant, operators, you know, DP or director, whatever. But the most comfortable thing I ever did in my life was operate a camera.

[Alan Tudyk]

Do you take any responsibility for the 4 out of 10 rating for hot to Trot? Tell us. Show us what you can do. No getting around that.

[Bill Rowe]

I could tell you stories about that. That would all get us in jail with the horses.

[Alan Tudyk]

I'm going to tell you, okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, my God, I hate jail.

[Alan Tudyk]

I hate that place. Let's avoid it.

[Nathan Fillion]

So when you say the most comfortable, is it because camera operators get to sit down or because you felt like, I'm really good at this job?

[Bill Rowe]

I. You know, when I was pretty young, when I. Dick Kemper called me one day and we just finished a commercial, I was a camera assistant, and he called me. He goes, hey, in a couple weeks or about a month, he says, I'm gonna do a movie. He goes, which was hard to try. I didn't know it at the time. And he goes, I want you. I want to move you up. You want to be an operator? And I'm going, now. Panic sets in. I have a house. I got kids. I got, you know, now, you know, to move up is a big move, especially assistant operator, because you have all this reputation now. Now you're the kid on the block. I was 30 years old.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, wow.

[Bill Rowe]

Going to be operating movies. And this guy. And I said, he goes, oh, hey, listen, I'm going to be gone for a week. He said, call me in a week. I said, okay. I never forget this. I'm in the kitchen with Kathy, and she looks up, hang up. She goes, look. She goes, what is it? I said, vic just wants to move me at Robert. She goes, yeah. I called him right then. I said, yes.

[Nathan Fillion]

That didn't occur to me.

[Alan Tudyk]

Young for a 30, young for an operator. Is it for, like. For big movies like that?

[Bill Rowe]

It was really seems like, you know. And then I had a lot of operator friends of mine that weren't happy that I did this, because they weren't. That takes jobs away from them and from doing these movies.

[Alan Tudyk]

The difference between the jobs is like, you're not the focus puller. You're not the one making sure you focus. You're loading mags. What is the first camera? I. I've been on a few sets, but I'm always distracted.

[Bill Rowe]

Well, this camera system is the one that does the focus is in charge of the equipment. As an operator, you are in charge of that frame that's being photographed.

[Nathan Fillion]

All right.

[Bill Rowe]

And how to arrange all this, the doll, you know, we got to get here, we got to get there, we got to do this or just. Yeah, you know, and it's more solving all those problems. And I, I never practiced once, ever. And I just walked up, turned the camera on, and you had the wheels and that was it. And it was so comfortable.

[Alan Tudyk]

Okay, the wheels are two, two little spinny. For the people out there, it's two little. They look like two little spinny things.

[Nathan Fillion]

Little hand crank on wheels, little hand cranks, little wheels.

[Bill Rowe]

And they makes the camera go left, right, up and down. And you have to do it all simultaneously, all at the same time without even thinking about it.

[Nathan Fillion]

One is your X axis and one is your Y axis. And so one goes up and down, one goes left and right. And in synchronicity, you're, you're panning, you're operating that camera. I've tried a number of times, much to the camera operator's chagrin. I'm terrible at it.

[Alan Tudyk]

But that's. I feel like it's like a, a video game remote control. Like, you know, where you get. It's like walking and shooting at the same time is difficult while you're looking around and walking. But this is with spinny wheels, which makes it that much harder.

[Bill Rowe]

And then we have to follow you guys around. We don't know if you're going to sit down, stand up.

[Alan Tudyk]

I'm aimless. You can't even. No one knows.

[Nathan Fillion]

And I'll try to mess you up just, just to see what happens.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I've seen that happen.

[Nathan Fillion]

But this never occurred to me that because I think about, oh, I get promoted now I'm cinematographer. You think, oh, I'm at the top now. But when you get promoted, you get promoted to the bottom of the next rung.

[Bill Rowe]

Correct. It's hard. It's a big life change. That's why a lot of guys don't move up. Because when you come in as operator, it's a whole different ball game.

[Nathan Fillion]

You've established yourself. It's almost like entering a new industry suddenly. And now you're at the bottom again and you have to re. Establish yourself. I honestly never once considered that. But it's the same in our industry. I had a lot of success in daytime and then I tried to move to prime time. And now you're at the bottom again. And then from prime time, if you want to go into film, you're. It's, it's, it's, it's all. It seems to be under the same umbrella, but it's all very separated.

[Bill Rowe]

It's hard. You have to have. First of all, you have to, you know, believe in yourself that you can do this. And nobody's giving you a guarantee that you're going to be successful at it. There's a lot of people that were camera systems that try to be operators. It just doesn't work.

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm going to throw out some credits, Bill, just so that Alan can glean some of the history here.

[Alan Tudyk]

Can I. Can I ask a question with, with some of these.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

Mr. Mon. With Michael Keaton, Alan.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, yeah. When you saw Michael Keaton, you're like, that guy could play Batman one day.

[Nathan Fillion]

The Lonely Guy. With Steve Martin. The Lonely Guy.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, with Charles Groban. Right.

[Bill Rowe]

It's Grodin, not Groban.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yes.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, that's so fantastic. Was Groban the same in. In real life as he was on camera? Still Grodin, sort of that Right kind of guy.

[Bill Rowe]

So Chuck and I. I was doing a movie, and I think I did five movies with him, and I was an operator. Oh, cool. And he finally one day he walks up, he goes, are you in my contract?

[Nathan Fillion]

Pee Wee Herman's Big Adventure.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh.

[Alan Tudyk]

Did he ever break character?

[Bill Rowe]

Correct. Never saw him. Never saw Paul. I mean, he was not Paul ever.

[Nathan Fillion]

You never saw Paul. You only saw Peewee.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, right. I see what you're saying. You only met Pee Wee.

[Bill Rowe]

You never broke character, you said. And he never did. Never saw Paul.

[Nathan Fillion]

How cool was that? An Andy Kaufman kind of an experience where you're. This is like, was it just wild?

[Alan Tudyk]

He.

[Nathan Fillion]

He's one of those guys who kind of ushers in. Like, nobody's doing this.

[Bill Rowe]

This.

[Nathan Fillion]

Nobody is doing this. And all of a sudden this guy comes in and changes the face of comedy because he's doing something so different.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I think it was. We didn't know what we were getting ourselves into. I mean, it's totally. I didn't know who he was really. And. And we were. It was crazy. And then you had. What's his name, the director, Tim Burton.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

And that was his first job as a. I mean, as a movie. I mean, he did some animation stuff and he did a couple. I think a short story, but this was his first job.

[Nathan Fillion]

Wow.

[Alan Tudyk]

And you're like, that dude is a kook. But he's got Some.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, he's got some funky ideas, this kid. Yeah, you know what? My jaw always drops when Bill tells stories.

[Bill Rowe]

And

[Nathan Fillion]

I went to a dinner one time with Bill and he said, oh, this is Chris Carter. And he starts introducing me around the table. He's the guy who did Jaws. He's the guy who did Close Encounters. He's the guy who just. Every phenomenal movie that has shaped the zeitgeist of popular culture, Bill and his friends were there creating it. And it's a jaw dropper every time.

[Bill Rowe]

I think that the thing was, I. Through this whole process, if you really, from being a camera assistant to, let's say now me being a director, whatever, is working with these people that I've worked with. And there are some crazy good, good cameramen, directors. I mean, I did 10 movies for Ivan Reitman.

[Nathan Fillion]

Name drop.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, cool.

[Bill Rowe]

I worked for Joe Pitka for two or three years. Greatest director, commercial guy ever. I did Space Jam. So, I mean, I just. I was so lucky. I work with all these cinematographers that are all being awarded can be awards. I was just in these. And you, like I always say to people, you don't think about it at the time, but you actually remember things that they say or they do.

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm gonna throw another one out. Toys with the lovely Robin Williams.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, that's crazy. That was that movie.

[Nathan Fillion]

Where was that? Where were those grassy fields out in the middle of nowhere?

[Bill Rowe]

The grassy fields were actually in Washington, up the state. Washington state in the middle of nowhere. But the sets were built at. They were at 20th Century Fox and they were massive sets. And it's still to this day, they're the most creative sets I've ever been around. Ever. Yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

Such a high concept movie.

[Bill Rowe]

It's, it's, it's. There's something. I mean, I remember sitting there and watching this and I was the operator and I'm just like, who comes up with this stuff? I mean, it's just like. And a guy name was Nando Scottafini was the guy and Italian production designer. And for some reason we. I used to talk to him all the time. And he would. I said, you know, we're looking at this, the toy factory. And he took Mylar across a whole wall of a set of a stage and then built two, you know, toy factory, you know, machines. And then they went forever. It was all in camera. It wasn't. There was no CGI or anything.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, that's incredible.

[Bill Rowe]

And I was sitting there looking. We're doing this shot and I'm looking At the floor. And it's a black and white checkered floor. And I'm sitting there looking at this thing, and I go, something's different with this. What. What do you. What's going on? So he walked by and I go, it's like, come here. Because we were up on high on the thing, I said, tell me, what did you do to this floor? And he goes, oh, you noticed? So they took. What are they? I think at the time, they were 12 by 12 tiles. They cut them to 9 by 9. Each tile. Just stuff. Like we have plaster and painted walls.

[Nathan Fillion]

I got them.

[Bill Rowe]

You know, they had like 30 or 40 painters on the Psych. Because they built. I don't know if you remember it,

[Alan Tudyk]

how they use Styrofoam and plastic.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, it was plaster. They hadn't done that in years. It's. And they had hand painted each. The whole city.

[Nathan Fillion]

I.

[Bill Rowe]

You know, it was.

[Nathan Fillion]

You talk to people who were there at the time and that you pull back the curtain a little bit. I am so thrilled, Bill, to find out that there's still magic in it for you as well.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, yeah, it was.

[Nathan Fillion]

It was.

[Bill Rowe]

It was. It was a great time. Now we just fix it with cgi. You had to do it then.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah. Now you can just put up a green screen.

[Nathan Fillion]

Seabiscuit, working with animals. You did Beethoven. I skipped over Beethoven. And then Seabiscuit. Hot to trot. There were some horses there. You like working with animals, Bill?

[Alan Tudyk]

Beethoven. Oh, that's with Charles Grodin again.

[Bill Rowe]

Well done, Grodin.

[Alan Tudyk]

And that's a big dog. That's a big dog.

[Bill Rowe]

That's a big. That was a huge hit. Yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

Martin Short was in that. Or. No, I think I'm.

[Bill Rowe]

No, he might have been later on, but we did the original. It was. It was a blast. We had a good time. That was. That was a good one.

[Alan Tudyk]

I think they did it, too.

[Bill Rowe]

Ultimately, Seabiscuit. I just did second unit for Seabiscuit. Okay, I did that. That's a great story. So we're sitting there and we're off shooting in Hidden Hills, and we're doing this thing and it says. I don't know if you remember the movie where the kid dies. Remember, he goes. He drives the car and he dies. His son.

[Nathan Fillion]

Spoiler alert.

[Alan Tudyk]

Tobey Maguire's character.

[Bill Rowe]

No, it was. Which were called Son. And in the script, the kid dies from a car accident. He's a young boy and he steals the car and he dies. Jeff Bridges, son.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yes.

[Bill Rowe]

And so in the script, it says, the trees move Right. As a moment of what happens. And of course they bring. They look at these trees and the guy brings out a little rear fan going, oh, yeah, great. You're going to move these eucalyptus trees. And I turn around and I look over and there's a tree full of birds. And I say, come here. And I. So we jump in the golf cart, we take the cameras and I go like this. Here's two wedges. You know how we make gun noises

[Nathan Fillion]

with wedges where you slap them together?

[Bill Rowe]

Yes, I said slap em. Slap em. As soon as you. When I tell you to, he goes. So I roll and all of a sudden it goes whack. And the whole burrs go. And I didn't tell anybody I did it. And it was. It's in the movie.

[Nathan Fillion]

That was for the impact of the vehicle into the tree. That was the.

[Bill Rowe]

It was the reaction of the earth moved.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, man, that's so badass. That's an artist. And that is, that's the fun of filmmaking and TV making and all of that. When you have people who are imaginative and who are looking to tell a story in as many ways as possible. Also the brilliance of you have a script that says the trees move and now you've left with a bunch of people scratching heads like, the fuck are we going to do? How are we going to make the trees move? We got this fan or we can tie some cables to it or we can. You know how too much nowadays. You're right about that. It becomes a vfx. And hopefully, I fear not, but probably ultimately in the future, AI will do that shit in a prompt.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

But you would miss what that is. That's fantastic. And what are those birds doing today? All dead. Okay, sorry. They're all dead. Okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

Bill, you and Alan also have another connection here because you did seven episodes of the Sarah Connor Chronicles.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh.

[Nathan Fillion]

With our fun, our friend Summer Glow.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, yeah, I did. I did the pilot with David Nutter. David Nutter is also the king of pilots. I think he's 22 for 24. Nice.

[Alan Tudyk]

22 that got on the air out

[Nathan Fillion]

of 24 pilots picked up. Out of. Not picked up. That's an incredible record.

[Bill Rowe]

He had a run there where there was like five shows on at the same time. Oh, my God.

[Nathan Fillion]

That's a Hollywood golden boy right there. It's Amin.

[Bill Rowe]

And I did like three or four pilots for him and the pressure is huge of not being the guy. It doesn't work.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

When you are the first director, you do. It's. It's you're setting the look of the show for all the. All the successive directors. So it's, it's not just an episode, it is, it's the show. It's how the show will then be mimicked.

[Nathan Fillion]

You create the bible for the look of how it's going to be and then you moved on a little later on. We're skipping a couple things, but let's get to the some meat of it. A huge, massive television program hit in X Files.

[Bill Rowe]

Yes.

[Nathan Fillion]

What was it like being a part of something that was such a phenomenon while you're doing it?

[Bill Rowe]

Well, it was. So they did the first five years in Vancouver. Yes. And then they decided to bring it back up to la because that was all David Duchoven. He wanted to come home. He was tired of being up there. And so they brought in there. I went in for an interview. I just became a cinematographer about a year before and I got a call to go in and meet Chris Carter. And if, like I said, if you remember the natural, it was all that, you know, the owner up on top of the stadium with the thick blinds and all that stuff. So I walk in, I can't even see him, you know, it's bright that got the dark and he's like looking at. There's a. There's like six people sitting in a circle. And I'm sitting there and they asked me like five questions and, you know, what cameras do you use, what film you use? And I go. And so I just told them these things and I think, okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

And I.

[Bill Rowe]

After about 20 minutes, half an hour, I walk out and I'm thinking, well, in those days we didn't really have cell phones. I didn't know anything. And then I got home and then phone rang and I got the job. And it was like. I don't know why I was. It was the job of the year for everybody. Wanted that job, really. And it changed, changed my life, changed everybody's life that was associated with it. We still saw people recently. We had a party and a bunch of us were there. It was, it was, it's, it's, it's put it this way, we, we were young, thank God, because the hours that we worked, I mean, we'd. We'd start on nights, you know, Tuesday, and we gradually go all night till Saturday mornings. And we'd have a 7 o' clock call Monday. We did this for four years every time. And we did 22, 23 episodes. And you just learned how to sleep, you learned how to do things. And that's rough. And it was. But it was also the only job to this day. Nothing against Rookie, nothing against Castle.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, no, it's definitely against Rookie.

[Bill Rowe]

But goal is that I would pull. I would get in my car four or five o' clock in the morning after working 16 hours and I would go. That was pretty freaking cool.

[Nathan Fillion]

You guys did some phenomenal storytelling, some visual incredible stuff on that show.

[Bill Rowe]

I think the only thing that really kind of sets it that's kind of like it would be Game of Thrones. It was. Game of Thrones was phenomenal. And the look of it and the whole thing. They do such a great job. But I think X Files start. Started that and, you know, it made Fox Studios. It changed the world. I had so many people come to me, cameramen going, every time I go for an interview, they make me sit and watch the X Files. They want to do that, they want to do that, they want to do that.

[Nathan Fillion]

It was a game changer, you're saying.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, it was, it was. It changed a lot.

[Nathan Fillion]

And having it on your resume, would you say that was a bit of a golden ticket?

[Bill Rowe]

Pretty much.

[Nathan Fillion]

Hey, see what I did there? I brought that back to the.

[Bill Rowe]

It was nicely done.

[Nathan Fillion]

Well, thank you. Only one good thing. And then after that, there was a couple projects in between, but after that you came to a. A little show called Castle, Castle Chats.

[Bill Rowe]

And I met somebody there.

[Nathan Fillion]

Tell me, tell me what you remember about first meeting Nathan Philliet.

[Bill Rowe]

Well, we came in and Rob Bowman was the director. I've known Rob, you know, obviously a long time because he was the next file guy, one of the original guys. And so I came. I don't remember actually the moment that you and I kind of talked. I wish I could, but I don't, you know, because we did 13 episodes

[Nathan Fillion]

and then the first season. Yes, we were half. We were mid season replacement.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah. So we shot. We were mid season and then we shut down for a year. We didn't know if we were gonna get picked up and we haven't, you know, we got picked up and all that stuff and I just kind of rolled onto it.

[Nathan Fillion]

That was around the writers strike and the recession. There was a lot of crazy things going on and it was very much up in the air as to what was going to happen next for everybody in the industry. But we lucked out.

[Alan Tudyk]

It wasn't even a full pilot. It was a.

[Nathan Fillion]

Well, it was a full pilot, but it wasn't a full season. We were a mid season replacement. But it was a full pilot. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

No, it wasn't. You're right, it wasn't a full pilot.

[Alan Tudyk]

No, you shot a lot of it. But you were complaining about that, that they paid. It's like when you do those half ass pilots, you. What everybody does is you try to shoot as much as possible so you can tell the story that you need to tell because they'll judge you on what you do, even though they know it's not a full pilot. You get judged on it.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I remember that because we came in when I, you know, because when they got picked up, we shot for another like eight days for the pilot

[Alan Tudyk]

to finish, to finish the pilot, to finish it.

[Nathan Fillion]

But we shot the pilot in New York.

[Bill Rowe]

But it wasn't a full. He's talking about it. It was a treatment. It was, it was a show pilot.

[Alan Tudyk]

Or they call it something. They call it.

[Nathan Fillion]

At this point, you guys know more than I know. And that was weird because I was there.

[Alan Tudyk]

They call it tease. It's a little tease.

[Bill Rowe]

I think they changed the character too.

[Nathan Fillion]

Seamus never came in after. There was a. There was a different fellow for that character, Ving Rhames. And yes, we reshot some of his stuff for sure. Now I will say this. Burt Reynolds. I, I remember, Bill, you were a force to be reckoned with. I remember again, I don't remember the day we met, but I remember your crew was like, oh my God, Bill's coming. Like, everybody sit up straight. Like, make sure get. Pick up that cable. Why is that? Clean this whole thing up. When you would come to set, their stress levels would go. And then you get there. Bill, Bill. Good morning, sir. How are you? I'm like, who, who's this guy? Why are you guys so scared of this guy? Everything changes when he comes in the room. Who is this guy, Bill?

[Bill Rowe]

That.

[Nathan Fillion]

Why you got. Wait, but it wasn't like he was a tyrant or anything. Well, but I'll say this. Bill had the look, you know, when, when the, when your dad's had enough and he gives you the look. It's like everybody, we cross the line, it's over. Like, okay, so sorry, Bill. Sorry. And he. I'll also say this, Bill, I've never seen you lose the program. I've never seen you get excited, you know, about, get upset about anything. I've never seen you raise your voice. I've never seen you do anything. But I go, come on. Like, that's as bad as it's ever been. As you go, come on, guys, that's. And that's what they feared. I don't know why. But season two, you said, you know, this director of photography thing is great, and it was great. Castle had a great look. But you said, I'm gonna start directing. And it was. Season two of Castle was the very first time you directed.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah. So it wasn't like something I wanted to do, to be honest with you. Rob came up to me, Bowman came up and he says, hey, we want you to direct one. And I went, well, I guess I should try it at least once to see if I like it or not. And we hit it out of the ballpark for that Indiana Jones one. It was a blast Mummy or whatever.

[Nathan Fillion]

It was a mummy episode of the Rookie kind of Indiana Jones theme. It's where we find first of Castle. It was where we first met Curry Graham, who wound up coming to the Rookie the first couple seasons up as well. He's a friend of mine now. I'm so glad I met him through that show. He was incredibly funny. He's so good on feature. He's a lovely, talented actor. But, Bill, you clearly have. You made your way through a lot of different jobs in the entertainment industry, a lot of. On the visual side especially, but you clearly have an affinity for directing. This is, I think, where you rightfully belong. Am I wrong?

[Bill Rowe]

I feel very comfortable doing it. I do. I mean, and because I think a lot of it is I have control of pretty much everything then. You know what I mean? I mean, I have control of the look. I have the control of how we're going to shoot it, how we're going to do things. And, you know, to be honest with you, it's awfully nice having a cast that is up for anything. And there's never a problem with any of you guys. And it's like, hey, I want to try this. Yeah, let's do it. You know, I mean, there. It's really. It makes it so much more enjoyable for everybody.

[Alan Tudyk]

It's more. It's. It's fun having a director that does that as well.

[Nathan Fillion]

Exactly, Alan. Thank you. Let's. Let's talk about that. Because if you don't trust the director, if you. The director's doing stuff, you go, why are we getting this? We're never gonna use this shot. Like, you just start. It's. Everything starts to. Your confidence is shaken at that point. But, Bill, you will come to us and say, well, we're gonna do like this and like this, but face this way, because if you do this, then we turn the camera around.

[Bill Rowe]

I don't have to.

[Nathan Fillion]

I don't have to shift everything around. I can take this. I get both shots at the same time.

[Bill Rowe]

What?

[Nathan Fillion]

You just saved us four hours. Like you have. First of all, you can do the math of it very quickly and easily in your head. Stuff that's clearly beyond me. But at the same time, you're extremely visually creative, and I'm always so very, very pleased with the stuff that you come up with.

[Alan Tudyk]

You.

[Nathan Fillion]

You're quite clever. I don't mean to sound surprised.

[Bill Rowe]

I think the bringing up of how I was raised and coming up to the business is a huge factor of all that.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

I mean, it's like I said, remember? You know, you're working with the cameraman and you think of. You're not learning anything, but then all of a sudden you go, wow, when that guy did that, that worked great. This is going to work great here, or whatever it is. I mean, it just. Yeah, I've been very lucky to work with all these great cameramen and directors. And it wore off. You know, it wore off.

[Alan Tudyk]

And then you may have worked with maybe a couple of. A couple of bad directors, too, that when they set up a thing, you're

[Bill Rowe]

like, well, that's one thing, too, is you learn from the bad guys more than you do from the good guys sometimes.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah. Like, this is gonna. And you see the way to make it right.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

And. And then from Castle, we. We moved on to the rookie, and now you are our. Well, you actually took off. You went to New York for a little bit. You worked on the blacklist for a great, long time. They loved you over there.

[Bill Rowe]

I did blacklist for about four years. Yeah, I really enjoyed it there. Those guys were really great. Yeah. Like Trip.

[Alan Tudyk]

We.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah. Is that fun?

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, he's a great guy. I like him a lot. Yeah, he's a real professional. Darn.

[Nathan Fillion]

He's so good at his job. Oh, I would love to. I think I both love and fear working with him.

[Bill Rowe]

I think that's probably right. I think that's how people are when he walks on the set, it's like. I used to go to him, I go, it's good to be king. Is it? He goes, yes, it is.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, he's got intensity. Just. He's always had that, though, for so long.

[Bill Rowe]

He's very competitive. I don't want. You know, when you give him a challenge and when you say, why don't. When you. Well, maybe you can't do that, and he just kind of looks at you and goes, what?

[Alan Tudyk]

That's a good trick.

[Nathan Fillion]

Then you. You'd already directed a couple of rookie episodes for us before you went and did Blacklist. But then they. Alexi called you and said, we'd like you to come back and be our supervising director. What, what's the difference between a director and a supervising director for their listeners?

[Bill Rowe]

Well, I mean, it's. You're more involved with production when you're a director, you're just, you're just a. Basically a hired gun to come in and do the best you can with the script you have, and you just try to make it as better. You've tried to make it. You've tried to make the episode better than the script. I mean, that's your whole point of, I think, trying to come up visually and how to make it better. And, and, and, you know, you're just like, you're a hired gun and you just kind of come and go. I mean, these guys, you know, sometimes they do five or six, seven different episodes of different shows every all year. When you're hired as the executive producer and you're now you're part of the show and you can plan a little bit, you can talk to people. And when the directors come in, which I try to do because I've been in situations where you just show up, you don't know anybody, and you try to make them comfortable, tell them how and listen, Nathan, we know sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. And sometimes they listen to you and sometimes they don't listen to you. And it's like, it's sad because it's like you're giving this person an opportunity to shine and they don't want to. They're there for their own agenda or whatever. But it's. I really enjoy it. I enjoy going through the process of prepping. I really like it coming up with ideas and in different locations and, oh, this is going to work better than that one. And you know, you're there to help. You're help. You're helping the show, basically. So, like, helping.

[Alan Tudyk]

Prepping is the, the, the prepping is, is, is the moment where you're going, all right, the script says the trees move. How are we going to do that? What trees are we going to use? Where are we going to do that? That's, that's, that's part of, that's the prepping. What all is like. Prepping is everything. Prepping is where it's going to be. And this is done with the director,

[Bill Rowe]

all the directors, and I go with the directors most of the time, and we talk about things and it's not just me. I mean, there's production designers out.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, right.

[Bill Rowe]

Marco Black and all. All these people were all there to make the show, and I think we're in pretty good hands with everybody.

[Nathan Fillion]

Would you say that part of your job is trying to maintain some consistency across the series when we have. Like you said, there's hired guns coming in all the time, and your job is to keep them on the path of. This is how the rookie looks. This is how the rookie feels. This is the pace. This is. Is that part of your.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, I think a lot. That's. One thing unique about our show is that we have so many ways to shoot a scene, whether it's body cams, surveillance cams, you know, podcars. I mean, there's so much. So you try to keep them on track. Oh, we're going to do this. Oh, but that's going to take so long. No, trust me, it's going to take about three minutes. We do shops and body cams, just things. And the cast knows what they have to do and it really. Yeah, it's hard having a director sometimes that doesn't it? That's why we like to have a couple of them back, because then they get in a rhythm. They know what they're gonna do.

[Nathan Fillion]

I love how much credit you give to the cast. I think I completely agree with you. We've had such an incredible time with our cast on the rookie, guest cast included.

[Bill Rowe]

Alan, I'm looking at you.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, I was on it. Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah, a number of times. But, I mean, certainly it took us a minute to find our feet as far as getting into our groove. But everyone on that cast is such a pro. There's nobody who hits that set who says, oh, this is beyond my capability, or I'm not really ready for this challenge. You're absolutely right. This is an incredibly capable cast.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, it's. It's like I've said, I. I've done a lot of shows and it's never been like this, ever. I hate to say it. I mean, it's never been where you have this many cast members and we have a lot. Right. And it's that can that they're all in, you know, and it's what's nice. I remember the first time I came on this, I was doing my first episode and we were doing one of the roll call rooms and everybody's in there and they're all laughing, having a great time. And I'm watching this and sister Richard goes, I got to stop. And I grabbed them by the back of the shirt and brought them back. I go, you know, you should enjoy this. This is my first episode. I said, you need to enjoy this because this doesn't happen. This does not happen.

[Alan Tudyk]

And then he called HR and it's. They're all.

[Bill Rowe]

You can tell they all love each other. They all have a good time. It's great. So I say, give me five minutes. Who cares?

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, that's fantastic. You heard it here first. The cast of the Rookie. Better cast than X Files.

[Bill Rowe]

The original X Files.

[Alan Tudyk]

That's amazing. That's good to know. And you got that here on Once We Were Spacemen.

[Nathan Fillion]

You know, Bill, I, I, if I had to make a list of my favorite directors that I love working with, you're. You're the top. You are number one. It's always, oh, this is a Bill episode. It must be an extremely challenging episode that we're going to make in plenty of time. Like, we're going to have a great time doing it. It's going to be fast. There's not going to be any wasted shots. I just, I, I can trust you. I know. And you do bring so much of your wisdom, your knowledge base, your experience, what you're talking about, all. Everything, all those relationships you nurtured over the years through all your jobs, everything you gleaned, it's all come to this project with you. And the rest of us get to, to benefit.

[Bill Rowe]

We all benefit. We all have a great time. And that's why, you know, when I said that speech for my birthday, it's like, you guys got to really, the whole crew needs to step back and say, you know, this is great. You will remember this the rest of your lives. This, this show. There's something about it.

[Nathan Fillion]

I would say if someone had said to me, you know, my first season of Castle, and pointed you out in the crowd and said, you and that guy are going to be like great buddies. I said, really?

[Alan Tudyk]

Because I hate that guy.

[Bill Rowe]

No, I think I said the same thing, too.

[Nathan Fillion]

I wouldn't be surprised. I got a lot of those looks from Bill that I mentioned earlier. I got a lot of the. I got a lot of those looks from Bill. I taught Bill. Somebody showed me, said, nathan, this is the most dismissive hand gesture in the world. And he turned to walk away and kind of just waved me off. But down below his waist, like he couldn't be bothered to wave me off. Above his shoulder, this kind of below the waist kind of little. It's kind of like you're swimming away a little bit Just a little. I taught that to Bill more than a decade ago. He uses it on me all the time.

[Alan Tudyk]

That's a good gesture.

[Nathan Fillion]

And now the crew, now the cast uses it, too.

[Bill Rowe]

They think you invented it because you

[Nathan Fillion]

use it so much.

[Alan Tudyk]

So it's hand away from your body, right? About shoulder length.

[Nathan Fillion]

No, no. Down by the waist, you're just like. It's like as you turn away, you just. You just wave them off like one way. Yeah. Melissa calls it old man hand.

[Alan Tudyk]

Oh, Bill.

[Nathan Fillion]

If there's someone out here listening. We had Alexi Hawley as a guest one time, and it was very. It's kind of fascinating from his perspective, seeing behind the curtain, if you. If there's someone out there listening right now who said, this is my journey, I. I want to be on this path. What wisdom, advice. What would you give them to say? Here's some words to live by. This is something general that has never failed me.

[Bill Rowe]

Well, I think. I mean, it's kind of like the same old thing is just don't give up. I mean, there's so many ways to do. And. And now, by the way, the avenues of success are. Paths you can take are enormous.

[Nathan Fillion]

Yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

I mean, when I grew up, it was really. You went to movies or you went to tv.

[Alan Tudyk]

That's it.

[Bill Rowe]

Now you have all this stuff.

[Nathan Fillion]

There was three networks and there was three movie companies, and that was it.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah.

[Bill Rowe]

And now you have. You can. The world can see your stuff on a little computer. I mean, it's just don't give up, you know? And that's what I would say is just don't give up. Because if that's your dream. Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

Now, Bill, we have a section, A little segment of our show called let's get to know you better.

[Alan Tudyk]

I know you and you know me.

[Nathan Fillion]

Let us get to know you better. We want you to tell us something that we don't know about you. It could be anything. Alan, why don't you. Why don't you start, Alan, just. Just to give us a little. A little leg up.

[Alan Tudyk]

Okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

I didn't.

[Alan Tudyk]

Again, I.

[Nathan Fillion]

You're not prepared. I'll start. Do you want me to start?

[Bill Rowe]

Okay.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah, Go for it. Go for it.

[Nathan Fillion]

All right. My brother, as you know, is a wonderful man. He and I are very tight.

[Bill Rowe]

We're very close. He has a little bit of what

[Nathan Fillion]

you might call the imp of the perverse. That little thing inside, that little demon inside says, what if I pushed him? Like that thing that maybe you shouldn't do occurs to my brother, and at the Same time he has that schornfreude where he kind of laughs at other people's misfortune. So he will cause misfortune and then laugh at your misfortune. The example I'm thinking of was he and I, as children, were playing Hacky Sack. Remember when Hacky Sack was a thing in the 80s? And we were outside the garage, there was garage lights kind of shining down on us. But if you kick the Hacky Sack up high, it would go into the darkness and then come down and you suddenly see it and go, oh, there it is. And then you kind of kick it. And he would keep kicking it over the fence, and I would have to go get it down to the neighbor's house and then come back and we keep playing. And then he kicked it over the fence. I said, you go get it. So he goes the other side. He goes, are you ready? I said, yeah, and kind of throws the Hacky Sack over. I'm looking in the darkness, and as it comes into the light, I go, there it is. And I go whack. And I kick it just at the last second. But he hadn't thrown the Hacky Sack. He threw a rock, and I kicked that thing. And it was in my late 40s. I had to finally get, like, a bone chip removed off the top of my foot that I'd been suffering with for decades. I was like, I don't know where I. And the doctor's saying, well, it's probably when you hit something, you probably did something. I said, I don't know where I got it. And I'm literally on the operating table where they're putting me under. You're in that kind of twilight thing.

[Bill Rowe]

And I.

[Nathan Fillion]

And I had the flashing memory of my brother throwing that rock over the

[Bill Rowe]

fence, and I went.

[Nathan Fillion]

It was my brother Jeffrey. And that was the last thing I remembered before I went out, was remembering how I got the bone chip on my right foot. And now you know me better.

[Alan Tudyk]

Now I know you better. God, I feel closer.

[Nathan Fillion]

Thank you.

[Alan Tudyk]

I feel closer to you knowing that.

[Nathan Fillion]

Bill, do you feel ready? Do you want Alan to go? You want to. You want him to warm you up? We'll take something from growing up. You have brothers.

[Bill Rowe]

All I can say is that people probably don't know is I'm really competitive.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, really? In what way?

[Alan Tudyk]

Wait a second. That goes against your whole, I just gonna sit here and crew and wait for someone to open a door for me.

[Bill Rowe]

I don't like to lose. Oh, wow.

[Nathan Fillion]

Are we talking about sports?

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah, sports. Golf. I play. I like, I, I, I play golf for money. I'm super ex, super competitive when it comes like that. I'm not, I'm not a nasty guy. I compete. I compete against myself more than other people. Oh, wow, okay. That kind of thing. And I think it rolls over to, to work, too, where, you know, I don't know. If you see me, I'll stop whatever we're doing and I'll say, you got to change this. This isn't right. You got to make it right.

[Nathan Fillion]

That's true. That's true.

[Bill Rowe]

And so I think I have this thing of I want to do it right all the time and competitive. I feel that's kind of competitive, but I just don't let it go. I don't have that in my DNA to go, oh, it's okay. We'll let it go this time. I can't do that.

[Nathan Fillion]

In my experience, if that's competitive, like in your job, then. And I, I. When I see you achieve greatness, I would, I would consider you a good winner. Are you a poor loser?

[Bill Rowe]

Used to be.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, okay.

[Bill Rowe]

Didn't know, you know, Little League and all that stuff. Oh, yeah. I was not a. I was. Yeah. I was not Good.

[Nathan Fillion]

Throw your glove down.

[Bill Rowe]

Oh, yeah. Oh, the helmets, throw the bats, all that stuff.

[Nathan Fillion]

Sit down row.

[Bill Rowe]

We're benching you. Yeah. Yeah.

[Nathan Fillion]

Okay, good. That's fantastic. I did not know that. That's great. That's great.

[Alan Tudyk]

I like the. I like the. I like the visual of you throwing the bats.

[Nathan Fillion]

All right, Alan, we have a bit of a. We have a bit of a childhood theme going here. Do you have any, do you have anything? I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, jam you into a category, but a childhood theme.

[Alan Tudyk]

Okay.

[Nathan Fillion]

Okay. Yeah. Sibling rivalries.

[Alan Tudyk]

This is dangerous. I got to be careful. I tell this story. There was a thing when I was young. Let's just say, oh, your mom's gonna hate this. So's your dad, if he listens. When I was in school in the 14, 15 year, 16 year, troubled years, I was trouble. Okay? I started. I came from a very white suburban. As shocking to most everyone, very white, suburban, Texas upbringing, public school. And I, I accidentally started tagging the school with the gang sign. That was a gang. That was just made up accidentally. Okay. Let's just say I was almost in trouble. I got pulled out of class. They. People knew I gone to my locker one day, so. So that I'm not going to say the name. I'll say it Stubbs. It doesn't even make any sense. Stubs. It didn't make any sense. It was nothing. It was nothing. It was about nothing. Started writing it on, like a piece of paper. Started writing on our folders. Started writing it in my locker. Started writing it on because I was an on index card stub, stub, sub. Sub. And flipping them into people's lockers. So to where everybody in the school's like, what the hell is this? We hate this. I was turning posters that said, like, elect me for student council. I'd flip the poster, put the tape on the other side, and turn into a Stubs poster. There was a. There was a locker that didn't have. Didn't lock. I opened it up. It was full of books, and I just wrote stubs all in. It left it open. That was the problem right there. Because whose locker that was, was a girl who was friends with all of the. What we thought of in those days as the stoners. They were the. The freaks. Is that. That was their title in my school. Somebody stole all the books out of that locker. Now, all of those guys who were the big dangerous people, you did not want to mess with these guys. They wanted. They were going to owe money at the end of the year for those books, and they want to know who Stubbs was.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, they connected you to the crime. They connected the Stubs guy to the crime.

[Alan Tudyk]

And they grabbed. Let's say his name was Chip Ruckle. I don't know if that's his name. Chip Ruckle dropped a dime on me. Anyway, I walked out of my last class in the 10th grade, and I got a hand grabbed me by the shirt and pulled me. It was like, you stay here. You're a stub, and it's one of these big guys. He goes, you. I'm like, I don't know.

[Bill Rowe]

What do you. What are you talking about?

[Alan Tudyk]

I'm not.

[Nathan Fillion]

I'm not.

[Alan Tudyk]

He's like, you're. You owe us money. It was the last day of school. They actually. The bill was due. And I said, let me just get my bag. It's back in the room. I didn't know I was leaving school yet. Let me just go get my bag. That room was this my speech drama class. I walked in, I was friends with the teacher. And I said, lock the door behind me. Don't let anybody follow me. And I heard this guy try to come in after me. And she's like, nope, nope. School's closed for the summer. And she locked the door. I went through the theater out the loading dock and ran to a grocery store. I was picked up by my brother, and I got away. My last day of school, 10th grade, I was on the lamb. I had, like, a gang looking for us, and I. Getting to the grocery store was hard because you'd hear, and these guys had, you know, big supercars, cars, and like, oh, Jesus.

[Nathan Fillion]

So you created a gang, and then there was a crime committed. Like, you.

[Alan Tudyk]

You. In the name of my faith, you

[Nathan Fillion]

imagined a gang, and then the gang was actually created, and then you were responsible for their crimes, Alan. And then I had to run.

[Alan Tudyk]

I had to lamb it, and I. I grabbed somebody on my way to the grocery store. I was like, hey, do you know my brother? You know who I am, right?

[Bill Rowe]

You know my brother.

[Alan Tudyk]

Tell him to come pick me up at the Albertsons. Made my way as fast as I could to the Albertsons, where we got away.

[Nathan Fillion]

God, you got away with it.

[Alan Tudyk]

It's a happy end of such a jazz. Such a pain in the ass kid.

[Nathan Fillion]

Did you learn your lesson, Alan?

[Alan Tudyk]

I didn't do any more fake gangs, that's for sure.

[Nathan Fillion]

That's true.

[Alan Tudyk]

The lesson I learned there was don't admit to your crimes.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, okay.

[Alan Tudyk]

Yeah. Because I got pulled into the principal's office, and he. Or the vice principal, and he said, we know it's you, because somebody had. Somebody had. I got to my locker one day, and somebody goes, hey, you know, the vice principal was in there today. I was like, what? And it had stubs written all over it, and it was all over my books. And then I got a note. I got a note that day saying, come see the vice principal. And I went to the vice principal's office, and he said, alan, we know you're a stub. I'm like, yeah, what is that? He goes, we know you are. I am what? A stub. No, no, not me. I think it's the freaks I was pinning on. We were.

[Nathan Fillion]

Because I was selling an episode of television.

[Bill Rowe]

Really?

[Alan Tudyk]

Right.

[Bill Rowe]

Yeah.

[Alan Tudyk]

So, you know, and. And it wasn't until he said, we're going to have to tell your dad, and you're going to have to come over here on a weekend, and you're going to have to pay for the paint to paint over all the doors and all the walls that have stubs on them. And that's when I was like, I am not telling my dad. And I said, I wish I could help you, but I don't know who it is.

[Nathan Fillion]

You are ballsy.

[Alan Tudyk]

And he let me go back to. I said, and you know what? I'm upset. I hope you find out who it is, because if you could see my locker. They broke into my locker and wrote stubs all over it, and they wrote it on all of my folders and all of my books.

[Nathan Fillion]

In my handwriting.

[Alan Tudyk]

In my handwriting. I was a little criminal, man, but like a dumb criminal.

[Nathan Fillion]

Bill, you called me just the other day to say, hey, man, we need to talk. What am I gonna. What is this gonna. What is this all about? This. This podcast? What do I gotta do? Do I gotta prepare anything? What do I got to do? This your first podcast, Bill. Your first interview.

[Alan Tudyk]

This is your first interview ever.

[Nathan Fillion]

Huh?

[Bill Rowe]

Score.

[Alan Tudyk]

What?

[Nathan Fillion]

First of many, Bill, I find you could be, like.

[Alan Tudyk]

You could be, like, in the Rolling. You could do, like, interviews in Rolling Stone and stuff.

[Nathan Fillion]

This is fascinating stuff. How do you. How.

[Alan Tudyk]

How.

[Nathan Fillion]

How was your experience, Bill?

[Bill Rowe]

How.

[Nathan Fillion]

How did it go?

[Bill Rowe]

It was great, actually. It. It was. I enjoyed it. I had fun. It was. It's. And you guys make it very comfortable, obviously. And, you know, my brother yesterday said, why don't you print out your resume on IMDb so you. least you understand the timelines of some of this stuff.

[Nathan Fillion]

Oh, that's a good idea.

[Bill Rowe]

It was actually very helpful because looking at movies, the timeline of when I did stuff could, you know, you don't really remember.

[Alan Tudyk]

And then it's such a long career, man.

[Bill Rowe]

Start to do a lot, and it's. But I had a blast. I really did. Thank you.

[Nathan Fillion]

Thank you. And I. I don't know why you sound so surprised, but I say thank you very much.

[Alan Tudyk]

Thank you, Bill Rowe.

[Nathan Fillion]

Thank you, Bill Rowe, for coming and doing this.

[Bill Rowe]

Thanks, Alan. Thanks, Nathan. I really enjoyed it. I hope this works out for you.

[Nathan Fillion]

Thank you very much.

[Alan Tudyk]

Thank you. Play us out so far. Thank you for listening to Once We Were Spacemen. If you haven't yet, head over to our Patreon to get bonus content, longer episodes, and the chance to take home some incredible crap. The most amazing crap. The kind that does not smell. And if you love this show, please leave us a review and tell your

[Bill Rowe]

friends one sweet war.

[Alan Tudyk]

Spaceman is a collision 33 production, whatever

[Bill Rowe]

the hell that is.

[Alan Tudyk]

The show is produced by Michelle Chapman, Siobhan Holman, and Josh Levy of Collision 33. There that is again. I'm sick of it. Production services are done by Rabbit Grin Productions. Why is the rabbit grinning? I don't like it. Her team music is from the minds of Carlos Sosa and Joshua Moore and the playing of Fernie and also Rallo and the artwork is created by Lewis Jensen. Until next time. I've been on a few sets, but I'm always distracted.