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- [00:02]
Andrew
This is a Headgum podcast.
- [00:06]
Craig
While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.
- [00:48]
Andrew
My name is Andrew. We're back again with a podcast.
- [00:53]
Craig
It continues. The podcast continues.
- [00:55]
Andrew
The world keeps us spinning.
- [00:57]
Craig
Yeah, it does.
- [01:01]
Andrew
This is the second podcast we've released since the United States presidential election of.
- [01:07]
Craig
2024, but the first one that we've.
- [01:09]
Andrew
Recorded since that happened.
- [01:11]
Craig
Yeah.
- [01:14]
Andrew
And. Yeah, I just don't. I don't know how it's going to go. And I accidentally, without realizing it, picked like the biggest bummer of a book that we've read in many, many years to do this epis episode about.
- [01:26]
Craig
Yeah.
- [01:27]
Andrew
So that's like, that's probably the fun. Gonna be the funniest thing about this episode. It's just like the juxtaposition of, of world events and what a gigantic bummer this book is. And the author is.
- [01:39]
Craig
Well, the author's not a. Like their, their life story is tragic.
- [01:45]
Andrew
What? I mean, yes, it's tragic. It's a tough subject.
- [01:48]
Craig
Yeah.
- [01:48]
Andrew
It is not if you are coming to this podcast for upliftingness, as some of you have emailed us and slacked us and.
- [01:56]
Craig
Yeah.
- [01:56]
Andrew
Slack. Discord.
- [01:57]
Craig
They didn't. Wait, they were slacking you.
- [01:59]
Andrew
No, they weren't slack. No, no. And they were in dark Slack. They were in Discord.
- [02:06]
Craig
Yeah. It's bad out there.
- [02:09]
Andrew
It's bad out there.
- [02:09]
Craig
It's bad out there. We're gonna try to keep doing good in here, right?
- [02:15]
Andrew
Yeah, that's our goal. Yeah, we're not. We're not. After the 2016, we did a whole episode about the way we were feeling this time. We both, like. The one thing we did agree about on how to handle it in the show is we're not doing a whole episode about the election.
- [02:31]
Craig
Well, and I think too, like, we've each found ways in which we do a lot of the work. We were like, wow, we should be. There's some stuff we would like to be doing in the world to make the world a better place. And that was eight years ago. And we've found ways to, to do some of that in, in, you know, the spheres of influence we have in our lives.
- [02:51]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [02:52]
Craig
And that's not going to stop.
- [02:53]
Andrew
Yeah. Just. Just feeling less like galvanized to, to take Big action and more like, okay, what can I do to shore up my. My own mental health and build smaller communities, like, closer to me and spend my time doing things locally? Like, I feel like that's been a. Yep. Theme of a lot of the reactions that I've. I've heard and read.
- [03:18]
Craig
Yeah. And I. I think some of that is born out of wisdom from. From folks who may have been saying. Some of them may have been saying similar things in 2016, but they were. Folks wanted to just get out there and swing a hammer.
- [03:31]
Andrew
We've talked a few times. Like, it's very strange to read sometimes books that were done in, like, 2017, 2018.
- [03:38]
Craig
Oh, yeah.
- [03:39]
Andrew
Because we've read, you know, we. We've read, like, introductions of books and things that. That really capture that. Like, well, I've got to do something. I've got to do something. I've got to do something big to fix it.
- [03:51]
Craig
Yeah.
- [03:52]
Andrew
Feeling from that period. And I think. Yeah, it's not that that was a bad impulse. It's just that it is not. It's not sustainable. And the way that this happened was. Is different enough that it just calls for a different response. I think so.
- [04:08]
Craig
Yeah.
- [04:09]
Andrew
So we're going to just say at a time. Yeah.
- [04:13]
Craig
We're going to keep approaching them with curiosity, empathy, and irreverence in. In appropriate measure.
- [04:21]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [04:22]
Craig
I won't say equal measure because it's not always appropriate for those to be equal.
- [04:26]
Andrew
And we're going to keep drinking pasteurized milk for as long as it. For as long as we can get it.
- [04:31]
Craig
As long as I'm allowed to. I am not going to drink the raw milk.
- [04:38]
Andrew
You know who's great? Did Louis Pasteur write any books that we could do for the.
- [04:42]
Craig
That's okay.
- [04:43]
Andrew
Because I'm feeling like, let's just do a Heroes series. I feel like. Yeah. We'd already been talking about doing Robert's Rules of Order. Like, I've been.
- [04:51]
Craig
Which I've been thinking about doing up the Jungle for, like, I was thinking.
- [04:56]
Andrew
About Upton Sinclair, too. Is like, okay, listen, a bunch of people take a lot of advancements that we made, like, 120 years ago for granted in a way.
- [05:05]
Craig
This is good brainstorming.
- [05:07]
Andrew
This is good public brainstorming.
- [05:09]
Craig
Yep. And we're going to keep reading, you know, diverse authors and trying to, you know, expand our own knowledge of the world and the. The people living in it. And hopefully, you know, you benefit from that somehow. The listener.
- [05:26]
Andrew
Yeah. So for this, our book podcast, where not every episode follows an election that went bad. But some of them do.
- [05:36]
Craig
Some of them do. More than one.
- [05:37]
Andrew
One of us. One of us reads a book that we've never read before and tells the other person about it. This week, I was the one who read the book. I read no Longer Human by Osamu Dazai.
- [05:49]
Craig
Yeah. Ningen Shikaku in Japanese, also translated as A Shameful Life in one of its English translations.
- [05:58]
Andrew
Yeah. I've also read Disqualified as a Human Being and a Failed Human as alternate.
- [06:06]
Craig
Wow.
- [06:06]
Andrew
Translations of. Of the title. But okay, this. I. When I described it to Craig after. After reading it, I. I said, I just reached for, like, Catcher in the Rye, but from Japan. And it's not. It's not exactly like that, because I think part of the thing about Catcher in the Rye is Holden Caulfield is a guy who doesn't really have any real problems.
- [06:31]
Craig
Yeah.
- [06:31]
Andrew
And the guy in this book, I think, does have a lot of things that he's genuinely struggling with. But I think in terms of, like, nihilism and narcissism and the sort of place that it occupies in the canon, I think they're, like, closer together than not. I don't know.
- [06:51]
Craig
Holden Caulfield came up in one literary article that I read about this, and I'm sure it comes up in others. So, yeah, this is an interesting. This book had, like, come on our radar a month or two ago as we were trying to plan ahead, and then it just slotted into the schedule. It was one that found it was interested in. Yeah.
- [07:09]
Andrew
It was like a potential spooktober book. And the. The. It's.
- [07:14]
Craig
I don't know where that came from.
- [07:15]
Andrew
I don't remember if it was on Amazon or, like, the list that I found it on, but it was like. It did come up as, like, a Booktok thing, and I just. I was not aware that Booktok did. Bummers. I don't think I was prepared.
- [07:28]
Craig
We will get into that.
- [07:29]
Andrew
I got here.
- [07:30]
Craig
Yes, we will get into that.
- [07:32]
Andrew
So tell. Tell me about the author, Osamu Dazai. Who's. That's. That. That's a pen name for him, correct? Yes. So it's his deal.
- [07:39]
Craig
Born 1909, passed away in 1948. Pen name of Shuji Tsushima.
- [07:45]
Andrew
I guess before we dive into it, this. This author section and the book stuff is gonna contain depictions of, like, self harm and.
- [07:55]
Craig
Yeah, yeah. And discussions of, you know.
- [07:58]
Andrew
Yeah. And if you are not in a place to hear that right now, then maybe. Maybe give it a break. Come back later. Don't Come back at all.
- [08:05]
Craig
Join us next week for Song of Achilles.
- [08:07]
Andrew
How about.
- [08:08]
Craig
Yeah, he's the. He was the eighth surviving child of a large landowning family. His father was involved in politics. Passed away when Dazai was a teenager. As I went on to study at Hirosaki University, later French literature at Tokyo University in the 1920s, his struggles with drinking began at school. There's, you know, discussion of him hiring geishas and other sex workers and not really doing his studies for a variety of reasons. I know one of his literary idols also took his life in, you know, when Dazai was pretty young, which kind of derailed him for a bit. Sure. While he's at school, this is also an era where a lot of, like, student youth movements are engaging with Marxism and communism. And he gets involved in that in a couple of ways. Multiple times in his life, he is, like, disowned publicly or privately by his family for either communist ties or for, like, being an accessory to someone's death. Oops. And that just seems to be a compounding factor of the tragedy of his life. Right.
- [09:32]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [09:34]
Craig
His first attempt. And I think some of these events are going to be depicted in this book. We'll get into the genre of this novel. I think we get through the bio.
- [09:45]
Andrew
Sketch here, but there's some debate as to how autobiographical it is. But there are a lot of things in this book that sort of mirror the events of his life as we know them. So, yeah, there will be things that come up again.
- [09:56]
Craig
Yeah. You know, there are multiple times in his life where he. He attempts to take his own life and things proceed tragically apace from there. One of them was, while he was still in school, he was, as I said, involved with the Japanese Communist Party. My notes corrected to community Party. Thanks, Apple. That's different.
- [10:22]
Andrew
Can't even say communist anymore. That's how bad the election went.
- [10:25]
Craig
Thanks, Tim.
- [10:26]
Andrew
Apple. It's been taken out of Autocorrect by Tim Apple.
- [10:29]
Craig
His first published story was Russia or Train or the train in 1933. And a lot of his works fall into what is called the I novel style. Again, I will just put a pin in that. We'll come back to that.
- [10:44]
Andrew
Yeah. Those are the kinds of books that Steve Jobs really likes.
- [10:47]
Craig
Oh, my God.
- [10:48]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [10:49]
Craig
Geez. That's so relevant to the joke.
- [10:52]
Andrew
Yeah. They're like, why? They're, like, white and shiny and they're. Yeah. Wow.
- [10:56]
Craig
He is attending Tokyo University. That also goes poorly. After another attempt on his own life, he develops a morphine addiction due to treatment following appendicitis and is forced to quit cold turkey while in hospital care in an institution. I think some of that factors into this book as well. He does have another marriage that falls apart. He later remarries and has three kids. I think with that partner though he has at least one other kid that I read about through another relationship. And all of this is happening in the late 30s and 40s. So World War II is now happening. He's excused from the draft due to health problems. And yeah, his publishing, like he's not. He's not successful coming out of college at all. He doesn't finish Tokyo University studies. But he is getting things published. He's writing a lot, a mix of full novels, political memoirs, lots of short stories and. And there. Things like that. There's a precursor story to this novel called the Flowers of Buffoonery that features the same character and that is only recently been published in English or at least there's like been a high profile publication of it recently. And then towards the end of his life after he has published his two major works, the Setting sun, which is about the kind of declining Japanese aristocracy following World War II, and then this, which is as we'll get into kind of a very personal. Tied to a single perspective of a young man confessional narrative maybe he abandons his wife and family and joins another lover who was a war widow. He finishes no longer human while he's with her and then they are both found drowned about a month before this book is published. Yeah, that's Tomi Yamazaki. And then it was published. So it was published a month after his death and it published in English ten years after that. So that's his like just kind of quick overview sketch. His childhood home was converted into a memorial museum that he briefly lived in the 40s. And then it changed hands a bunch until it was really, you know, set up as we know it now. There's an award named after him for kind of young undiscovered short story writers, things like that. But he's. No, and he's. And he may be kind of overshadowed by Yukio Mishima who I read two years ago, Confessions of a Mask, which is a similar kind of confessional novel style. Sure, sure. Which is this thing called the eye novel that he is instrumental in advancing. That is just.
- [14:01]
Andrew
Do you ever read Zoon novels? Because I thought those were. Those never took off the way the Eye novel did. The Eye novel changed everything, Craig.
- [14:11]
Craig
It did. It created a market we didn't know we wanted the Watakushi Shisetsu, or Shisetsu comes about in the early 20th century, in the Meiji period, as Japan is opening itself up and undergoing rapid changes as it abandons isolationism. We have major examples in the early 19, like, 19 aughts, as folks are like. I remember a few months ago I read that Emil Zola book that was like, we had to talk about what naturalism was for like 10 minutes and pretend we knew what we were talking about.
- [14:42]
Andrew
Yeah, I.
- [14:44]
Craig
Novels are like. Or the shisetsu are Japanese scholars and authors kind of wrestling with their own version of naturalism. And there's like a mix of this confessional revelation narrative as well as, like, well, what if we dive deep into the internal psychology and emotions of characters and not just describe plot and things like that? I'm probably being pretty reductive, as I had to learn as much as I could in a short amount of time on this whole literary movement.
- [15:14]
Andrew
But that's a good catchphrase for our show, probably.
- [15:18]
Craig
But there is something in the, like, historical record of what. Where the genre comes from, where in the Meiji period and in the early 20th century, you see this, like, rise of a strong Japanese nationalism and, like, you know, bolstering the army and things like that. And younger writers and scholars are like, well, but individualism, though, like, what I'm interested in literary movements that express other forms of, like, just living than solely for your country and things like that. So you see young readers and young writers move into this confessional narrative model, and that sort of explains, I think, the ongoing appeal of works like this, which I feel like we've encountered stuff called auto fiction before. Andrew.
- [16:09]
Andrew
Sounds familiar.
- [16:10]
Craig
Yeah. And it. You can draw some lines between them if you'd like to, but like the movie Cars. Oh, man. You're, like, ready. You. You are so ready for any joke, and I'm so proud of you for it.
- [16:28]
Andrew
Like reaching out to any glimmering thread in the darkness.
- [16:32]
Craig
Yes.
- [16:32]
Andrew
Grabbing onto it and holding it tight.
- [16:34]
Craig
Yes. It is different.
- [16:36]
Andrew
I don't know if it's funny. It's not funny, but it's like something.
- [16:39]
Craig
I'm just glad that your. Your brain is working and it's doing the work that I can't do right now.
- [16:46]
Andrew
It's in there. Yeah, it's in the. In the funny minds trying to hit a vein of something.
- [16:53]
Craig
And you can look at. There are other novels. Murakami's short story collection in 2020, first person singular, has a bunch of work. I read a Reddit publicbooks.org article about that collection, first person singular. That also name checks, things like Mine Mizumura's an eye novel from 1995, as well as Convenience Store Woman from 2016, which is probably not really an eye novel. But people, whenever there's a similarity between an author and a character at all, people start invoking it a little bit. And he is just. I think it's not a thing unique to Dazai, but this does happen with artists of any medium who die tragically young. The work that they are most famous for, if it at all aligns with the circumstances of their passing or things like that, gains like an extra potency or something. Yeah, yeah. There's a thing there when you're engaging with it that makes it land harder for people. And so the thing about this, the popularity of this work and this author recently. Recently, thanks to Tick Tock. Thank sort of. I read a 2023 article in New York Times that opens just with the fact that people are putting quotes, quote unquote, from Dazai about whether or not he wants to live and why. Over like beats, you know, just cool beats. Okay, these are, these are. Is audio from an anime called Bungo Stray Dogs. And it's an. It's a manga from 2012 and an anime. Excuse me, from 2016 anime.
- [18:44]
Andrew
Yes.
- [18:45]
Craig
Where Dazai is. Or someone named Dazai is one of the main characters. The creator named a bunch of these. It's like a. Like an X Men detective agency. Everybody has like a superpower, but they're all based on famous authors from Japan, I think.
- [19:02]
Andrew
Okay, okay.
- [19:04]
Craig
And they carry some of their like, you know, popular or well known characteristics, including the fact that design does not want to live. And it is played for morbid humor in a way that may or may not sit well with you. I have, I watched 30 seconds of it and it's to me, just knowing about the real person as I get ready to record this podcast.
- [19:31]
Andrew
Yes.
- [19:33]
Craig
But that apparently is a popular ish anime that then creates some of this book Talk Memedom and then it kind of takes off among just younger readers who are like, hey, here's a guy writing with kind of oddly modern prescience about what it is to feel fake or what it is to be to have trouble connecting with other people. And it speaks to them and then people share it. And then here we are. It's kind of this like, interesting game of telephone, of influence to get us to where we are. Where, where now the publisher is like, wow, there's tiktoks. We got to get people Translating his other stuff. You know what I mean?
- [20:19]
Andrew
Yeah. I think it's interesting we won't talk about it a lot in the book because it's not like it is never made text. I think just because the book is too old for this to have even been a conversation at the time. But it was, reading through it, it was interesting. Just like the main character, Oba Yozo, is. He has this alienation from society that ranges from like, just really intense social anxiety to what I think a. A lot of people would probably identify as like, on the autism spectrum somewhere.
- [20:55]
Craig
Yeah, that seem. From what I was reading, it seemed like that might be there. Yeah.
- [20:58]
Andrew
And so, yeah, I could definitely see, yeah, a more modern reader, especially like a younger reader reading that and kind of recognize, like, picking up those things and relating to it a little bit, like, as they consider how they are relating to modern society. So I don't know, just something that occurred to me, like, jumped off the page at me as I was. As I was getting into it. And his descriptions of feeling completely not only like nobody in. In life, like, understood him, but that he had no way to understand what. How to relate to literally anyone, including people in his family.
- [21:34]
Craig
Sure, yeah.
- [21:35]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Craig
Did you read the. The Donald Keane translation? Is that the one you read?
- [21:40]
Andrew
I believe I did, because it's a little bit. It's a little bit older. And one of the markers that the translation was slightly older is there are a couple of moments in the. The translator's note, slash introduction where he does talk about a Japanese. Talking about, like a person from Japan.
- [22:01]
Craig
Sure.
- [22:02]
Andrew
You know, a Japanese.
- [22:04]
Craig
Yeah, that's Donald Keane. He was born in 1922. He died in 2019. He was a professor.
- [22:10]
Andrew
Not to criticize him. It's just like I. Yes, this is. Oh, this was not written two years ago. Like, I can say that with some confidence.
- [22:18]
Craig
He was a professor at Columbia for 50 years, a big scholar of Japanese writing and the Japanese language. He was an intelligence officer in the Pacific in World War II. He studied in Kyoto after doing his, like, Ivy League education here in the States. And then in 2011, I think there was a big earthquake, the Tohoku earthquake in Japan, and he moved there and became a citizen. And only a few years earlier had been awarded the Order of Culture by the Japanese government, which is a pretty big deal. And he was the first non Japanese person to receive that. So well known in Japanese literary and cultural circles, I think. And his move there was like, you know, applauded and lauded because he was. Had strong connections there so Other Translations 2018 Mark Gabo is the Shameful Life translation. And then there was one by Juliet Winters Carpenter, announced this year, 2024. I don't know if it's out yet, but there are other adaptations and as I said, there's that anime that uses the guy, which I think has also helped some manga editions get published recently.
- [23:34]
Andrew
So yeah, yeah, I think like the Keen one is definitely the, like the top one when you're, when you're going to buy this book. So yeah, I don't know that newer one is out yet, but I don't know for. Yeah.
- [23:44]
Craig
All right, well let's take a quick break and you can tell me more about this book, specifically Andrew.
- [23:56]
Andrew
Craig. This week's episode is brought to you by Squarespace. You know, if you're feeling alienated from society, maybe all you need to reach people and to be reached by people is a really good website. It may be the ticket, maybe it may not be. But. But it may be.
- [24:11]
Craig
And, and if it is, which it.
- [24:13]
Andrew
May be, which it may be.
- [24:15]
Craig
Sounds like Squarespace might be the answer.
- [24:17]
Andrew
I think Squarespace is the answer for you because it's a website that helps you make websites. They give you beautiful templates, they give you drag and drop tools, they give you 247 award winning customer support, all kinds of other stuff that demystifies and de difficulties the process of making a website that you can use for just about anything. Here are some features about Squarespace that we really like. Design Intelligence Craig Using two decades of industry leading design expertise, Squarespace helps you unlock your strongest creative potential. Design Intelligence empowers anyone to build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to their unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity to use across one's entire online presence. Creating an identity that sounds like it could be useful if you're feeling alienated from the from the world.
- [25:08]
Craig
I need one of those.
- [25:09]
Andrew
You need an identity. SEO Tools Craig get discovered fast with integrated SEO tools. Every Squarespace website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions, an auto generated sitemap and more. So you show up more often to more people in global search engine results. You can also sell content. Squarespace makes it easy to sell access to content on your websites like online courses, blogs, videos and memberships. Earn recurring revenue by gating your content behind a paywall. Simply set the price and choose whether to charge a one time fee or subscription for access. If any of these things sound appealing to you, you can go to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to launch squarespace.com overdue is the URL you want to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Again, that's squarespace.com overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
- [26:01]
Craig
Andrew. This episode is also brought to us by Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. The busy holiday season is here. Andrew.
- [26:15]
Andrew
I can't believe it. It snuck up on me.
- [26:18]
Craig
It really. Oh man, I heard Christmas songs in the car today. Uncommon Goods make it makes it less stressful with incredible hand picked gifts for everyone on your list. All in one spot. Gifts that spark, joy, wonder, delight and most importantly the. It's exactly what I wanted feeling. You see, they scour the globe for original handmade, absolutely remarkable things. Things for every single person, you know. And I did look through their website like I do for every one of these to find things that I think are pretty cool.
- [26:49]
Andrew
You love looking at websites.
- [26:51]
Craig
I do specifically on common goods because gift giving is tough. Things like in the, in the gift giving season, the holiday gift giving season, when you have to give a non holiday gift, it can be tough. Like a housewarming gift. Right.
- [27:07]
Andrew
What are you gonna do?
- [27:08]
Craig
All your brain is spent on Santa stuff. What are you gonna do?
- [27:11]
Andrew
And you don't wanna do that thing that my parents have sometimes been guilty of doing where you see a thing and you think it's funny and so you decide that the recipient needs to own that thing forever.
- [27:22]
Craig
Yeah.
- [27:22]
Andrew
Whether it's useful or not. That's the thing I liked about Uncommon Goods is they have a lot of like stuff that's cool but also practical.
- [27:29]
Craig
Yes. Like if it's a, if it's a housewarming gift, you could give somebody some like cool dishes but not like big ones, but ones that are neat. Like I found these, these handcrafted salsa turtles. They're super cute. I'm going to send you these salsa turtles, Andrew. They're these cute little salsa turtles that there's comes in sets of three. They're handcrafted, they're hand painted, you know.
- [27:55]
Andrew
Look at these little boys.
- [27:56]
Craig
Look at these little turtles.
- [27:57]
Andrew
Hold my salsas.
- [27:58]
Craig
You could give that as a holiday gift. But also it's like a fun like welcome to your new house, serve me some salsa.
- [28:05]
Andrew
Yeah, salsa's all the way down.
- [28:06]
Craig
The other thing I like is like they're pretty good for stocking stuffers or secret Santas where you know, maybe like an interest of a person. Like I run A book podcast. You know that about me. I also love socks. Cause I go through them real fast. I walk around every day. I need new socks. What if you got me the cool library card socks? They look like library cards, but on my feet. Get them for me from Uncommon Goods. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. They look for products that are high quality. And many of the handcrafted products are made in small batches. So shop now before they sell out this holiday season. Maybe those turtles. With every purchase you make at Uncommon Goods, they give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. And they've donated more than $3 million to date. So to get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com overdue. That's UncommonGoods.com overdue for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods. We are all out of the ordinary. Andrew, how human do you feel right now at this very second?
- [29:16]
Andrew
Like aggressively human? Yeah, I feel like when I, when I get anxious and sort of alienated feeling from the society that I'm living in, it makes me feel more. More human.
- [29:30]
Craig
Uh huh.
- [29:31]
Andrew
And not less.
- [29:32]
Craig
Okay, that's interesting. I think I share that with. It's like to me now here, that feeling is part of the human condition.
- [29:42]
Andrew
Yes. Especially our human condition that we've just been stewing in for a decade.
- [29:47]
Craig
Yes. And I do think that there is something to Desire's legacy and his impact at the time, how he was received. That is, some of this is like, maybe not the first guy to say it, but one of the first to say it in the way that he did or to bring up specific issues like alcoholism and you know, other vices that are taboo.
- [30:11]
Andrew
Yeah. The fact that this has, and especially, you know, it's got this, this new book talk.
- [30:18]
Craig
Yeah.
- [30:18]
Andrew
Like a lease on life now. Like it's, it is interesting that this book that he wrote about feeling so separate from humanity that it made him feel not human is something that a lot of people are like relating to and seeing something in.
- [30:34]
Craig
Yeah.
- [30:37]
Andrew
Yeah. So where does, where to begin? Where would you like to start based on what you've, what you've read about Dazai And. Yeah.
- [30:45]
Craig
Could you tell me about the main character in whatever order it makes sense to like hit what you know about him? Because sure, we, as we've said, it's like it's included in this genre where there is a fuzzy line between the author and whatever the main character is. And there are some Like, I read some formulaic frameworks around like, what the rules, quote unquote, are that it seems like nobody really adheres to. They're just there for like, scholarly discussion. And in terms of how limited is the novel to the author's experience or.
- [31:21]
Andrew
Well, things like that can just put up like, guide.
- [31:27]
Craig
Yeah, they're there to help you digest a work.
- [31:29]
Andrew
Yeah, they're there to help like, you can compare whatever you're reading to, to those benchmarks and it helps structure a discussion. So. Okay, the. The book is split up into three notebooks like so many movie franchises these days. Oh, my third notebook is split up into two different.
- [31:48]
Craig
Is it really?
- [31:49]
Andrew
Oh no.
- [31:52]
Craig
They filmed that one at the same time.
- [31:54]
Andrew
Yeah. But we get this very light frame narrative from a narrator whose name we never know. And these are presented as the notebooks of this character, Oba Yozo, which tracks him from childhood up until his late 20s. And we don't, we don't know what becomes of him following the events of these notebooks. The narrator just finds them so remarkable that he needs to release them and put them out into the world, I guess. Okay, so we begin with the, with Yozo's childhood. And he from, from the beginning does not relate to anybody and, and is always like, he is so unsure of how to handle like, any direct inquiries or questions that it just, it makes it difficult for him to relate to his siblings or to his father. Like, there's this episode where his dad is going. His dad, who is a, A, A representative in the Japanese like, legislature.
- [33:04]
Craig
Sure.
- [33:05]
Andrew
The diet. The diet. Yes, he is. He is going on a trip and he is asking each kid what they want him to bring back. And he gives Yozo a couple of options and it was just doesn't. He doesn't really want either of them. But he especially is feeling like non committal about like a ceremonial, like celebratory mask that his dad offers to bring him back. And he can tell his dad is disappointed and he doesn't want his dad to be disappointed, but he, so he goes downstairs and he writes this, this mask in the notebook that his dad had been like, recording the, you know, what each kid wanted in it, like just, just to make his dad happy. But not because he wants it. It's just because he can't. Like being disapproved of makes him feel so, so awful.
- [33:57]
Craig
Sure.
- [33:57]
Andrew
Can't. He can't really handle it.
- [34:00]
Craig
Okay, okay.
- [34:01]
Andrew
So we are, we're following him into school and we see him develop this coping mechanism for like blending in to society that that is translated as I'm. I kind of wonder what the original Japanese would have been. But the book repeatedly translated translates it as clowning.
- [34:24]
Craig
That's the word I kept seeing crop up. So yeah, I don't know.
- [34:28]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [34:28]
Craig
Huh.
- [34:29]
Andrew
Okay, let me just read a quote here. I seem to have heard the theory advance that human beings live in order to eat. But I've never heard anyone say that they lived in order to make money. No. And yet in some instances, no. I don't even know that. The more I think of it, the less I understand all. All I feel are the assaults of apprehension and terror at the thought that I am the only one who is entirely unlike the rest. It is almost impossible for me to converse with other people. What should I talk about? How should I say it? I don't know. This was how I happened to invent my clowning. It was the last quest for love I was to direct at human beings. Although I had a mortal dread of human beings, I seemed quite unable to renounce their society. I managed to maintain on the surface a smile which never deserted my lips. This was the accommodation I offered to others. A most precarious achievement performed by me only at the cost of excruciating efforts within. In.
- [35:18]
Craig
Oh wow.
- [35:20]
Andrew
So he, he becomes a goofball to. Okay, like not, not just to. To be like laughed at and, and, and thought well of like in social circles, but just so that nobody in a position of any like authority or influence would take him seriously enough to ask too much of him. I don't to disapprove because it's kind.
- [35:40]
Craig
Yeah, okay, that makes like.
- [35:42]
Andrew
And he. And he talks like how he's. How he's proceeding in school, but what am I schooling? I was well on my way to winning respect, but the idea of being respected used to intimidate me excessively. My definition of a respected man was one who had succeeded almost completely in hoodwinking people, but who was finally seen through by some omniscient, omnipotent person who ruined him and made him suffer a shame worse than death.
- [36:04]
Craig
Wow.
- [36:05]
Andrew
Supposing I could deceive most human beings into respecting me. One of them would know the truth and sooner or later other human beings would learn from him what would be the wrath and vengeance of those who realized how they had been tricked. That was a hair raising thought.
- [36:18]
Craig
Oh my God.
- [36:19]
Andrew
And so this, you know, Yozo feels like he's not a member of humanity, but I feel like anybody who's ever struggled with like imposter Syndrome can read that bit and relate to what he is going through. Yeah. There's a.
- [36:34]
Craig
There's an extremity to his assessment of both himself and his situation that in. I don't know, the. As I was reading this, I'm just. I was. As I was reading about this, I was struck by, like. And then there's stuff like Kafka where he's like, the guy just turns into a bug like that. Like, he's so, like, not. He's so apart from society that he's a bug. And then like, that's going to be the way that we explore how all of this works. And then the. The naturalist way to do this is to. Is to just dial up to 11. A bunch of feelings that many of us have just not this strongly.
- [37:15]
Andrew
Yeah. Or they, like, don't run our entire lives, even if they are, like, always running in the back of our head. Yep.
- [37:22]
Craig
Yep.
- [37:25]
Andrew
So that last passage is important as we get into the second notebook, which is sort of an adolescence into adulthood section.
- [37:33]
Craig
Okay.
- [37:34]
Andrew
Yozo is doing a big exaggerated, like, prat fall. And he falls over and everybody laughs. And he's just, you know, he is. He's doing his clowning. And Takeshi, who had crept up from somewhere behind, poked me in the back. He murmured, you did it on purpose.
- [37:53]
Craig
Whoa.
- [37:54]
Andrew
I trembled all over. I might have guessed that someone would detect that I deliberately missed the bar, but that Takeshi would have been the one came as a bolt from the blue. I felt as if I had seen. Seen the world before me burst in an instant into the raging flames of hell. It was all I could do to suppress a wild shriek of terror. So his most. His deepest fear is being realized because this one, this one kid has kind of seen through the clowning and sees that he's faking it.
- [38:22]
Craig
That reveals to me a level of the clowning that I don't think I had groked that it is not just class clowning. Right. As we understand it. It is not just being a wise guy. It is like actively making yourself look the clown cosmically. Right. So that people's. Which makes it makes more sense as a. As a coping mechanism for fear of any kind of judgment if. If he was falling. And it isn't like. But it is like, people should find it humorous how, like, you know, silly as an existence he has. And then someone's like, oh, no, I'm on to you. Like, that's. That is terrifying.
- [39:15]
Andrew
It is terrifying. And so it's. You can't. I can't Overstate enough, and neither can Yozo. He never thought about killing Takeshi to keep him from revealing the secret of his clowning to everybody. The one thing that never occurred to me was to kill him. During the course of my life, I have wished innumerable times that I might meet with a violent death, but I have never once desired to kill anybody. I thought that in killing a dreaded adversary, I might actually be bringing him happiness.
- [39:41]
Craig
Whoa.
- [39:43]
Andrew
So his method of dealing with Takeshi and trying to make sure that Takeshi does not reveal the secret of the clowning to everybody is to become fairly close friends with Teshi.
- [39:57]
Craig
Okay.
- [39:58]
Andrew
And he doesn't. He doesn't like Takeshi very much. He, you know, he usually describes him as kind of an ugly little toady little kid, but he does kind of bring him into his confidence, and they do become friends. Like, Takeshi never tells anybody about his, like, faking, okay, the clowning. But the, The. The anxiety of that motivates Yozo to such an extent that that's the relationship that they develop.
- [40:24]
Craig
Fun.
- [40:25]
Andrew
And so. So, yeah, like, Takeshi shows Yozo like a Van Gogh. And this leads to Yozo to begin doing, like, these very gloomy self portraits of that are trying to capture his, like, state of mind. And they're very, like, spooky and haunting in a way that Takeshi is impressed by.
- [40:46]
Craig
Okay.
- [40:48]
Andrew
And so he says, like, he lays this sort of prophecy on Yozo that he's going to be very successful with women and he's going to be a successful artist. And these are kind of the things that hang over his head and haunt him for the remainder of the book.
- [41:06]
Craig
Okay, neat.
- [41:08]
Andrew
So still, we're still in the second notebook. He has gone to Tokyo to go to college. He's taken up with this guy named Hariki who is a. Just a horrible person.
- [41:22]
Craig
Oh, nice.
- [41:24]
Andrew
Just a real scumbag who introduces him to. Who introduces Yozo to, like, smoking and drinking and sex worker great in a way that kind of. I don't know if even derailing his life is the right way to talk about it, because what rails was it on like before? Yeah, it does redirect the course of his life. I soon came to understand that drink, tobacco and prostitutes were all excellent means of dissipating, even for a few moments, my dread of human beings. I came even to feel that if I had to sell every last possession to obtain these means of escape, it would be well worth it. I never could think of prostitutes as human beings or even as women. They seemed more like imbeciles or lunatics. But in their arms, I felt absolute security. I could sleep soundly. It was pathetic how utterly devoid of greed they really were. And perhaps because they felt for me something like an affinity for their kind, these prostitutes always showed me a natural friendliness which never became oppressive. Friendliness with no ulterior motive. Friendliness stripped of high pressure. Salesmanship for someone who might never come again. Some nights I saw these imbecile, lunatic prostitutes with the halo of Mary.
- [42:33]
Craig
Wow.
- [42:37]
Andrew
And, yeah, like, the. So he does descend into a life of, like, you know, addiction and substance abuse and among other things. But it is all always rooted in, like, this. This not even wanting to relate to other people, not wanting to feel more human or seem more human, but just, like, trying to put up walls to, like, escape this. This feeling that he has of not belonging to the rest of humanity. Like, this is. This is the theme throughout the first couple of notebooks.
- [43:15]
Craig
Yeah, it's interesting because, like, you know, the phrase that gets used for things like social drinking is like, social lubricant and things like that. And it is not. It is interesting that it is not a means of connection for him. It is a. Yeah, yeah. Defenses dissipating.
- [43:36]
Andrew
My dread of human beings. Yeah, that's not. That's not. Not lubrication.
- [43:40]
Craig
But it's. It's like. But he's also really interested in all of these, like, very specifically modulated forms of interaction to where it's like, oh, this is transactional, but in a way that is, like, different from the horrifyingly transactional, quote, unquote, typical interactions I have with people.
- [43:58]
Andrew
Yes, this is transactional in a way I can wrap my head around.
- [44:01]
Craig
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:05]
Andrew
The second notebook ends with him. There's a woman who he's been seeing on and off Suniko, who he sleeps with. And there is a. There's an episode where he opens his. You know, he opens his wallet and there's like, three copper coins in there. And she says to him, is that all you have? And her voice was innocent, but it cut me to the quick. It was painful, as only the voice of the first woman I had ever loved could be painful. Is that all? No. Even that suggested more money than I had. Three copper coins don't count as money at all. This was a humiliation more strange than any I had tasted before. A humiliation I could not live with. I suppose I had still not managed to extricate myself from the part of the rich man's son. It was then I myself determined this Time as a reality to kill myself. So he and Suniko resolved to throw themselves into the sea, which they do. And she dies. But he survives.
- [45:11]
Craig
Yep.
- [45:12]
Andrew
And then barely managed manages to escape like repercussions for like being blamed as an accomplice in her death. And this is an event that mirrors a thing we were talking about in Dazai's life, I think.
- [45:28]
Craig
Yes. And a similar. Him and his lover late in life both dying by drowning in what is believed to be taking their own lives is like an echo of this earlier attempt. Yeah, that's. Does it have the same thing where like his. When he narrowly escapes like any sort of consequences, his family involved or does it just kind of like hop. Skip past onto the next.
- [45:54]
Andrew
Yeah, I mean it is. So it is because his dad is a. Is a member of the legislature, like it does. The incident was treated rather prominently in the press, no doubt because I was a college student. My father's name also had some news value.
- [46:07]
Craig
Okay.
- [46:08]
Andrew
But yeah, there's a. A guy who shows up a couple of times to kind of bail him out and, and relay like family money to him in times of extreme need. Who shows up around here. But this is, this is basically how the. The second notebook ends is with this, this attempt. And then with. He is like. So we. We got that bit with Takeshi where Takeshi noticed that he was faking something.
- [46:40]
Craig
Yeah. Yeah.
- [46:41]
Andrew
And then there is a. You know, he. He is coughing a lot because he almost died in very cold water.
- [46:47]
Craig
Yeah.
- [46:48]
Andrew
And he goes into like an interview with a cop and he like plays up the coughing and the cop is like was that real? And with. With that like he, he. Yozo mentions it as like one of two like failures in a lifetime of acting. Like with that. That kind of ends the second notebook. It's. It is not even that that has a. Like because the cop thought he was faking it that he goes to prison or like it drastically changes the course of events or whatever. It is just something that leaves a mark on him because this is how he is thinking and still trying to like survive in, in, in society and in the world.
- [47:33]
Craig
I think I saw a tick tock where someone was reading like that quote, like the quote of that event. Because that, that is a big thing when, when a book is rolling on there. You just. You're just getting a lot of videos of people holding their book up to the camera reading the passages, which is, you know, that's a way to consume it. But yeah, that, that, that sounds familiar from some of the.
- [48:00]
Andrew
So now we get now, we get in now, we get into the third notebooks, part one and two. And these are kind of a depiction of, you know, I can up and down, but generally downward deterioration from here on out. Like he is, he is released back out into society. But there is a, you know, so, so before we, we have been talking about his ways of like coping with society, like trying to relate with society. Like either, you know, through his, his clowning. Like a way of being extended, accepted.
- [48:34]
Craig
Yeah.
- [48:35]
Andrew
Without like being respected in a way that creates like expectations.
- [48:39]
Craig
Yep, yep.
- [48:40]
Andrew
And then also escapism through vice, substances and. Yes. And women. In the third notebook, he kind of comes to an understanding of society that basically helps him discard it. Oh, interesting. Which is interesting in, in these times that we live in, because I feel like this theory of society is like, describes the way a lot of people are operating now, especially now that like Trump has been re elected and these people no longer feel any, any need to vie for anybody's votes or approval or anything. They're all just kind of doing what they want to do from then on. However, I came to hold almost as a philosophical conviction the belief what is society but an individual? And this is a little later society. I felt as though even I were beginning at last to acquire some vague notion of what it meant. It is a struggle between one individual and another, a then and there struggle in which the immediate triumph is everything human beings never submit to. Human Beings even slaves practice their mean retaliation. Human beings cannot conceive of any means of survival except in terms of a single then and there contest. They speak of duty to one's country and such like things, but the object of their efforts is invariably the individual. And even once the individual's needs have been met, again, the individual comes in. The incomprehensibility of society is the incomprehensibility of the individual. The ocean is not society, it is individuals. This was how I managed to gain a modicum of freedom from my terror at the illusion of the ocean called the world. I learned to behave rather aggressively without the endless anxious worrying I knew before responding, as it were, to the needs of the moment.
- [50:33]
Craig
There's a lot of ways to read that. I know, I know what you're saying and I buy take. Yeah.
- [50:42]
Andrew
Yes. And as I like, I am reading that, I am realizing like how much of this moment I am bringing to this book, like part of the part of. Because we're never doing like a really academic conversation, we're always just like talking about books as that as they Hit us.
- [50:59]
Craig
Yeah, of course.
- [51:00]
Andrew
Where we are right at that moment. And even though it's not like, you know, goofy, goofy, ipod jokes, whatever, like, this is. This is where I met. This book is just like this. He. He arrives at this conclusion that, you know, we. We can talk about society being a collection of people who are working together towards some common good. And I personally choose to. To believe that there is a lot of that in. In humanity. But the way that he has decided to. To. To survive and get by is just like, looking out for number one. Doesn't matter. Nothing else matters. Like.
- [51:38]
Craig
Yeah.
- [51:39]
Andrew
And that's how secretly everybody is doing it. You know that.
- [51:42]
Craig
I think that is what is most interesting to me is this, like, realization of, like, a different theory of mind than he had that he kind of assumed everyone was in on something that he was not. And instead recognizing that everyone is, in some ways, like, very much alone, and that is not bringing him to the. The thing that then I go to, which is like, well, we're all alone. We're all kind of in this together. That's interesting. Like, let's figure something out here. And instead it is, well, what if that turns you in the other direction and you're like, well, we're all alone. I'm gonna ride down the Joker stairs, baby. Like, let's go. And that's very redu. You know, we're trying to make ourselves chuckle here as we stare down the gaping maw of something.
- [52:38]
Andrew
Every once in a while, you and I have that moment where it's like, you know, we reference the movie Deadpool a lot for two guys who have never once.
- [52:45]
Craig
Okay, listen, I draw the line at watching Joker.
- [52:47]
Andrew
I'm not saying watch Joker. I'm saying we talk about the Joker stairs. We have to go an awful lot for a couple of guys who have never gone and beheld the Joker stairs in the city of New York.
- [53:00]
Craig
It's not that far. We could go.
- [53:02]
Andrew
It's not. It's not that far physically, but that's what I mean. It is a long distance to travel, like, psychologically, Basically, yes. To go on a pilgrimage to see the Joker stairs, I feel like we would have to come up with some other reason to go.
- [53:17]
Craig
I'm just so grateful for new idioms. Like, it's not every day that I get a new, like, Wikipedia article that functions as an idiom for me. Right. Like that. I just use the Joker stairs that way, fully confident that you would understand me.
- [53:36]
Andrew
And that's what the Joker stairs are.
- [53:38]
Craig
It's a great gift that Joker gave us.
- [53:46]
Andrew
That is if we ever do a live show in on the Joker Stairs. New York City. I don't think we would do it on the Joker Stairs because unfortunately, I believe they're very popular. It's a popular destination. But if there is some kind of, like, walking tour or like, bar cross happens after. Yeah, I do feel like we need to hit the Joker Stairs. Okay with everybody.
- [54:08]
Craig
Okay, back to that passage you read particular reason. Yes, it does. I would be interested to meditate on this book if I had read it with a little more knowledge of the, like, the era in which it's written. Re Individualism. Like, like just kind of what it is. We here in America, we have, like, such a specific version of individualism that is both fun and terrible and has lots of ideals and perversions. And so I would be interested to learn more about, like, what that means for him and for. And for the readers reading it at the time. Because I do think what you're getting at is when you hear that now how it's landing with people in the last, like, three years is very specific and probably has apparently been feeling very communal for people in an ironic way. Yeah.
- [55:02]
Andrew
Yeah.
- [55:02]
Craig
Okay, so what. So now that he has become the Joker.
- [55:06]
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, I think that's really like the nut of the last part of the book for me. So the events of the last bit of the book are, you know, he deteriorates further. He becomes kind of a kept man for a couple of different women who he's sleeping with. One of them works in the publishing industry and helps him, like, get into the. The biz as, like, a cartoonist. And that's how he's making money for a bit, but he's just, like, drinking it all away, like, super aggressively. He meets a young woman who he marries and he enjoys how, like, sort of trusting and innocent she is. But then one evening when he's hanging out with stupid Horiki, who I hate, he beholds through a window another man forcing himself on her. And this kind of breaks him in a lot. In a lot of ways. He ends up trying to stop drinking, but in so doing, replacing it with a morphine addiction and going to, like, an asylum to get. To be forced to get clean.
- [56:25]
Craig
Yeah.
- [56:26]
Andrew
And the. The end of the book, like, you know, his family's people show up again to kind of bail him out. But he is. He's living in this small house in, like, the countryside with this old. This elderly servant. And here, here's how, here's how the book Ends. And you can. You can. I'll let you decide whether this like, updates your take on how the book views humanity or not. And kind of leave it.
- [56:53]
Craig
Oh boy.
- [56:54]
Andrew
Yesterday I sent Tetsu, the old servant, off to the village drugstore to buy some sleeping pills. She came back with a box rather different in shape from the one I'm accustomed to. But I paid it no particular attention. I took 10 pills before I went to bed, but was surprised not to be able to sleep at all. Presently I was seized with a cramp in my stomach. I rushed to the toilet three times in succession with terrible diarrhea. My suspicions were aroused. I examined the box of medicine carefully. It was a laxative. As I lay on my bed staring at the ceiling, a hot water bottle on my stomach, I wondered whether I ought to complain to Tetsu. I thought of saying, these aren't sleeping pills, they're a laxative. But I burst out laughing. I think reject must be a comic noun. I had taken a laxative in order to go to sleep. Now I have neither happiness nor unhappiness. Everything passes. That is the one and only thing I have thought resembled a truth in the society of human beings where I have dwelled up to now as in a burning hell. Everything passes. This year I am 27. My hair has become much grayer. Most people would take me for over 40. The end. And we get a brief like wraparound back to the unnamed narrator where basically he like meets somebody who had appeared in the notebooks but he can't track down what. What happened to Yozo. And we just don't. We just don't know what happened to him after this. But you know that. I think that also that sort of play on words involving diarrhea and things passing also has something. There is like a glim. A glimmer of hopefulness in our current moment. Everything passes.
- [58:26]
Craig
There's also a. A humor there that has not like. You have not meant like. I don't know. There's.
- [58:33]
Andrew
There have been humorous bits and bobs and I think, you know, I think it's come. Some of it has come through and the like the way the things I brought up and the way that we've been talking about it. But yeah, it's. It is darkly funny in spots.
- [58:45]
Craig
That is a thing I've heard. I've read about his work that there is a. Like a self deprecating humor. Too much of it that is part of what people find compelling about it and works in which it is and isn't. More like when it's where it's more or less present. Kind of like maybe the. The measure by which you say some are like better or lesser works of his. I am interested that you mentioned that thing at the end. I was reading an article in the Atlantic by Jane Young Kim, one of the like, rush of pieces around the 2023, like there's new stuff in English by him and we're all discovering him sort of thing that mentions that as an interesting, like for this genre that is supposed to be very limited to the author's perspective or the fictional account of it to then have this like, outside person. The quote that, that, that Young Kim puts in is that like somebody refers to knowing them as like a good boy, an angel, after you have this entire novel of this guy being like, I'm terrible and I don't fit and I'm awful and I'm just like, I belong on a different universe. And then to have another character remember them even remotely fondly. This is an interesting corrective to what the book is putting forward or a counterbalance to what the book seems to be putting forward and like a fun way to play with the. The form, I guess. And I do think it being a. Not quite epistolary, but a. Like having an in fiction reason for it to be first person for a fake character is just kind of an interesting way for him to play with the form to. Yeah. I don't know. Interesting that he ended on a laxative.
- [60:40]
Andrew
Yeah. This is one of those that I was like. And we talked about this earlier, like I was kind of dreading coming into this recording.
- [60:48]
Craig
Yeah, it's tough.
- [60:49]
Andrew
You know, we hadn't recorded one since the election happened. And this was kind of. I. I obviously found it engaging, but also it was not like an uplifting like, comfort read. Like, I think we're gonna. In early 2025, we're probably gonna be programming a little bit more in the direction of comfort reads for a bit.
- [61:07]
Craig
Yep.
- [61:07]
Andrew
And that was not this. And I just had not considered that at all as. As we built this schedule in like mid October or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, in. In talking about it, I think I am. I am finding hopeful things in it. Or I'm like, I don't know, like there are books for overdue where I come in like, guns blazing. Like, I, I did not like this.
- [61:34]
Craig
Oh sure.
- [61:35]
Andrew
And there are. And there are books where it was like, I don't. I had a weird read. I don't know how I feel about this. Like, maybe I will discover how I feel about it as weed.
- [61:44]
Craig
Yes.
- [61:44]
Andrew
And I think that this. This has been a big one for that latter approach.
- [61:49]
Craig
Yeah, I think, too. I think it's. There's, like, a quote from. I think it's attributed to David Foster Wallace that is the. Like, the purpose of fiction is to make the reader feel less alone or something like that. And I. I do think that in a way, a book about being irrevocably alone or feeling so alone that you are not a person, as we said, is a thing that I've met more readers than maybe the author thought would identify with. And, like, there is a. There's a connection there which can be positive for someone, even if it's a book that is, like, staring pretty dimly at the world.
- [62:36]
Andrew
Yeah. There's, like, something that's. You can. You can choose to think of it as something bleak or something hopeful.
- [62:45]
Craig
Like, it can be hopeful and tragic.
- [62:48]
Andrew
Being together in being alone, you know?
- [62:50]
Craig
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a shame that he, you know, died as young as he did because.
- [62:58]
Andrew
Well, and obviously, just like, as. As Yozo, the character in the book does, just is like, struggling the whole time.
- [63:06]
Craig
Yeah.
- [63:07]
Andrew
Like, regardless of. Of the end of it or, you know, what he produced during his life, just, like, just struggling and not being able to get the help that. That he needs, which is also, you know, the. The a thing that. That is top of mind right now is like, as. As we think about how to direct our energy and our effort in, like, a sustainable way. Like, I think a lot of. A lot of my thinking has shifted from, like, who. Who can I elect a year from now, two years from now, four years from now, and more about. Okay, what. What, like, what concrete human suffering can I help try to make better today less bad today?
- [63:58]
Craig
Yes. I thought you were going to end with, what concrete human suffering can I make today? And I. I was a little confused.
- [64:06]
Andrew
No, that's.
- [64:07]
Craig
You took a pause and I got confused.
- [64:09]
Andrew
No, no, no, no, no.
- [64:11]
Craig
I mean, we could find.
- [64:12]
Andrew
I feel like. I feel like we can find some.
- [64:14]
Craig
Weird books to read if you want.
- [64:17]
Andrew
A long time ago, when I was listening to myself do overdue, I started thinking about ways to say like, and, like, the, like, filler words less. And in a lot of cases, I've replaced it more with pauses, which in both in podcasts and in, like, regular conversation, I think sometimes creates space for people to be confused about where I'm going with something.
- [64:43]
Craig
Okay. Why we keep listening? Why keep talking? Well, anyway, thanks for reading the book, Andrew. Thanks for telling Me, I'd love to keep talking.
- [64:50]
Andrew
Let's keep talking forever. Let's talk through it. Hey, we're going to talk through it with your mouth.
- [64:56]
Craig
Yeah, we're going to just post.
- [64:58]
Andrew
Yeah, it's just posting with your mouth and we're going to post through it. That's, that's my promise to you is we're going to post through it with our mouth.
- [65:07]
Craig
Thanks to you for posting through it, Andrew. Thanks to everybody for listening through it this week. You can send us an email if you'd like to post. Overdue podmail.com hit us up on social media at Overdue Pod. We're on Instagram and Blue sky lately.
- [65:26]
Andrew
Popping off gang.
- [65:27]
Craig
Come on in.
- [65:28]
Andrew
I'm speaking of posting. I'm posting again.
- [65:31]
Craig
Posting.
- [65:31]
Andrew
I'm on Blue Sky. I'm posting.
- [65:33]
Craig
Yeah, come on in. The sky is blue. Welcome to Maria, Tabby, Liesl, Allison, Matt, Shelby, Sarah and more for posting with us lately. Thanks to Nick Laurentis who composed our theme music. Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?
- [65:49]
Andrew
Overduepodcast.com is our Internet website. We have up there the books that we have read and the ones we are going to read, including the last of our November schedule. Next week we'll both be reading the Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller as sort of a capper to our recent long read project Stop Homer Time where we read Emily Wilson's translation of the Iliad. We also read Circe which was kind of her, her Odyssey riff at the end of our read of Emily Wilson's Odyssey. So I like, I like the symmetry of doing this.
- [66:26]
Craig
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [66:29]
Andrew
Patreon.com overduepod is our Patreon page. You can support the show financially, buy us equipment, books, childcare, other things that we need to make the show happen as a, as a sort of practical matter.
- [66:44]
Craig
Yeah.
- [66:45]
Andrew
And you get access to our Discord community and our long read episodes and to other benefits. We've had a Patreon sort of tweak in the, in the works for a while that's been derailed by, first by the run up to the election and then by the election itself. But it is, it is coming soon. We hope to be able to share more with you within the next couple of weeks, I hope.
- [67:10]
Craig
Yeah, we should be able to do that.
- [67:12]
Andrew
But yeah. Patreon.com overduepod thank you so much to everybody who is supporting and yeah, that's what I've got. Anything else?
- [67:21]
Craig
That's it. Next week, Song of Achilles. Be there, be there.
- [67:24]
Andrew
Or be square. All right, everyone, until we talk to you next week. Now, now more than ever, please try to be happ. That was a headgum podcast.