Ep 680 - Wicked, by Gregory Maguire

Summary

Overdue Podcast Episode Summary Episode 680 - "Wicked" by Gregory Maguire Release Date: December 9, 2024 Host: Andrew and Craig

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1. Introduction

In Episode 680 of Overdue, hosted by Andrew and Craig from Headgum, the duo delves into Gregory Maguire's novel, Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. The episode explores the stark differences between Maguire's book and its subsequent adaptations—the acclaimed 2003 musical and the upcoming 2024 film, Wicked Part One.

2. Overview of "Wicked" by Gregory Maguire

Andrew introduces the book as the original source material for the musical Wicked, which in turn inspired the imminent film adaptation. He expresses his initial expectations of the book being a more fleshed-out version of the story familiar to fans of the musical and movie. However, his experience diverged significantly from these expectations.

Andrew [02:29]: "I read the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West by Gregory Maguire. This is, of course, the source material for the 2003 musical Wicked, which is the source material for the 2024 film Wicked Part One."

3. Comparison with the Musical

Andrew and Craig discuss how the musical differs from the book, noting that Wicked the musical is "cleaner" and more streamlined, focusing primarily on the relationship between Glinda and the Wicked Witch (Elphaba). In contrast, Maguire's novel introduces numerous characters and subplots that are either absent or significantly altered in the musical.

Craig [04:20]: "I'm going to venture a guess here and say that this is not a two part. We're not surprising you with a part one podcast here, but if we were."

Andrew points out that while the musical simplifies and condenses the story for stage purposes, the book delves deeper into political themes and character backstories, making it a more complex and sometimes slower-paced read.

4. Author Gregory Maguire - Background and Intent

The hosts provide a background on Gregory Maguire, highlighting his early life, academic pursuits, and his fascination with children's literature and fairy tales. Maguire's intent was to explore the nature of evil and the propaganda involved in labeling individuals as such.

Craig [12:08]: "He was born in 1954 in Albany, New York. He's the youngest of four. His mother passed away from complications, I think, after his birth, or birth of a sibling, I think."

Maguire's experiences, including his time in an orphanage and his academic focus on how children's literature reflects political climates, heavily influence his portrayal of Elphaba and the socio-political landscape of Oz.

5. Plot Discussion and Analysis

Andrew and Craig dissect the plot of Maguire's Wicked, noting significant departures from the musical:

• Elphaba's Character Development: Unlike the musical, where Elphaba's descent into villainy is more streamlined, the book portrays her as a character plagued by numerous failures and personal grievances, contributing to her transformation into the Wicked Witch.

• Political Underpinnings: The novel delves deep into the political structure of Oz, highlighting the rise of a fascist-like figure in the Wizard who gradually erodes the rights of sentient animals, questioning the nature of power and oppression.

Andrew [38:50]: "What I like about how this book treats power is yes, there are some naive people who think that you can just fax your way out of oppression of marginalized groups."

• Structural Challenges: The book's structure, with its significant time jumps and shifting perspectives, often leaves readers disconnected from side characters, making certain sections feel dragged out.

Andrew [35:10]: "So, yeah, you just have to solve that for your book."

6. Differences Between Book and Musical

Key differences highlighted include:

• Character Relationships: In the book, the romantic tension between Elphaba and Glinda is subtle and largely unacknowledged, whereas the musical amplifies their friendship without delving into deeper complexities.

• Plot Outcomes: The book presents a more definitive and somber ending with Elphaba's death, contrasting with the musical's portrayal of her faking her demise. This divergence affects the overall tone and message conveyed to the audience.

Andrew [33:20]: "She'S born, she goes to college. She and Glinda sort of bounce off each other at first, but become friends."

7. Themes and Insights from the Book

Maguire's Wicked serves as a critique of authoritarianism and explores the gray areas of morality. By providing a backstory to a traditionally villainous character, the novel invites readers to question societal labels and understand the multifaceted nature of evil.

Andrew [16:37]: "He initially said that he had started this book after he moved to London, I think, 93, but that he may have had a draft a few years earlier and his Version of events of where."

The hosts appreciate how the book challenges readers to think critically about power dynamics, prejudice, and the origins of villainy, making it a thought-provoking read beyond its fantasy setting.

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Andrew expresses disappointment in the book's pacing and complexity, especially for those expecting a straightforward extension of the musical's narrative. Craig concurs, finding certain plot devices and character developments less engaging compared to the musical adaptation. They acknowledge that while the book offers rich themes and deeper character explorations, it may not cater to all readers, particularly those primarily familiar with the musical.

Andrew [78:15]: "There have got to be copies of this book out there now with Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo on it."

Despite differing opinions on the book's execution, both hosts commend Maguire for attempting to humanize and add depth to a legendary villain, contributing valuable discourse to the portrayal of complex characters in literature.

Notable Quotes

• Andrew [05:15]: "I was talking to producer Megan about this earlier today and she did confirm that there's not a lot of butt stuff in the stage show and there is some butt stuff in the book."

• Craig [12:08]: "He was born in 1954 in Albany, New York. He's the youngest of four. His mother passed away from complications..."

• Andrew [38:50]: "What I like about how this book treats power is yes, there are some naive people who think that you can just fax your way out of oppression of marginalized groups."

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For more insights and discussions on books you've been meaning to read, tune into Overdue each week as Andrew and Craig continue to explore a diverse range of literature.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue, a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

And this is our book podcast where each week one of us is taking a book and really holding space with it and feeling power in it, which is very powerful. And it's just what I wanted.

[Andrew]

By the time the holding space interview finally crossed my like, transom, we were so many layers of discourse deep that I couldn't. I watched the source. I watched the source video and I only watched the source video.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I could not understand how the conversation had gotten from that to where it had gotten. I was too far behind the discourse.

[Craig]

I just saw a video today day where Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo both kind of copped to. We didn't know what was happening and we're just as flabbergasted as you are. And honestly, that it became a thing for being inscrutable makes us feel better.

[Andrew]

I don't even know if it was inscrutable. It was weirdly said, but I don't think you can really mistake the. The intent of the thing.

[Craig]

Yeah, I read an interview with Tracy Gilchrist, or Gilchrist, who did the interview, and it was. She was saying a thing that made sense, but just the words that happened right then and there.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The specific phrasing and the saladiness of it. Sort of. Yeah. It accidentally lent itself to memeing. And here we are.

[Craig]

And here we are discussing a meme on our book podcast where each week one of us does read a book and tell the other person about it. Andrew, what book did you read this week?

[Andrew]

I read the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the west by Gregory Maguire. This is, of course the source material for the 2003 musical Wicked, which is the source material for the 2024 film Wicked Part One.

[Craig]

Wicked Part One.

[Andrew]

And whenever Wicked Part Two comes out, I'm sure it will also be based on the 2003 stage show Wicked.

[Craig]

I'm gonna venture a guess here and say that this is not a two part. We're not surprising you with a part one podcast here, but if we were.

[Andrew]

Wouldn'T we toy with you a little bit about it?

[Craig]

That'd be pretty funny.

[Andrew]

What I want to say before we get into other stuff. Okay, let's go. It's just if all you and this was me go, no, this is me going into this book. Wicked. If all you know about Wicked, the like intellectual property consists of the poster for the original musical with like the smiley green witch and the whispery Glinda.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And a vague sense that the story's about Glinda and the wicked witch at college before Dorothy shows up.

[Craig]

Uh huh.

[Andrew]

And the pink and green splashed color scheme of the heinous and inescapable merchandising campaign for this film.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You will be astonished to read this book. And for one glimpse, Linda is barely in it. It's not really a thing. Sure. Like you can clearly see the seeds for what the show became in this. I think in a lot of ways the musical is cleaner than this book because it takes a lot of characters who are just kind of like dangling threads in this and like ties them into the Oz mythos, especially like the, you know, the main characters of the original movie. Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But it's just very, it's very different. It's very long, it drags a lot in the middle and it was just not what I was expecting it to be.

[Craig]

There was a.

[Andrew]

And I bet I am not, I am far from the only person to experience this book in this way is what I'm saying.

[Craig]

There is an Entire Today show today.com Article by Elena Niklow entitled Wicked. Fans are warning about the book. It's very different than the musical. And it's mostly clips and quotes from people who have been book talking about the book going, have you read what's in this thing? Because I do. I don't know how in detail we'll get. But it's my understanding that there is like, there's sexual assault in this book. There's all sorts of like incredibly like detailed stuff that was never gonna make the show and is very more adult than the show would lead you to believe, let alone the movie.

[Andrew]

I was talking to producer Megan about this earlier today and she did confirm that there's not a lot of butt stuff in the stage show and there is some butt stuff in the book. So that's one difference that I can confirm based on my research.

[Craig]

The endoftistoday.com article is basically like being bewildered by the novel is a rite of passage for Wicked fans. Like if you love the musical, of course you're going to go back and read the book and you're going to be like, what is this? Where did it come from?

[Andrew]

It truly is like they took the first quarter of it and we're like, cool. This is a good genesis for whatever we want to do. And then they utterly jettison the rest of it, which is fine, because I do think where it starts to get draggy is, like, around the point where they stop being in college.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Okay. And it comes, like. It comes back around a little bit in the end, but it's just a weird. It's just weird. It's a weird story. It's very strange.

[Craig]

Yeah. I'm excited to talk to you about it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, me too.

[Craig]

I saw. We'll talk about Gregory Maguire in a second, and then we'll talk about the novel itself. I saw the musical when I was in high school. I think it had probably just come out. We took a trip up to New York City. New York. New York City.

[Andrew]

New York City. Sue's played me some of the songs in the. In the car, and that's my.

[Craig]

I have memories of listening to that soundtrack in high school in, like, early college summers or whatever, and, like, really only listening to, like, six of the songs regularly.

[Andrew]

That's pretty much what. Because sue was like, okay, we've got to drive. I know. You just finished this book, and you got a podcast about it later today. Like, I'll have you listen to some songs and. Yeah, skip through a lot of them. Yep. There's, like, the. The Loathing song and the one about being popular. It's called Popular Defying Gravity.

[Craig]

The big one and for good.

[Andrew]

And then, like, the end one. Yeah, that one.

[Craig]

And you can, like.

[Andrew]

Then everything else is, like, it. Skip, skip, skip.

[Craig]

If folks are not familiar with Wicked, you can draw a direct line between Defying Gravity and Let It Go in terms of Idina Menzel as a performer and, like, the cultural impact of the, like, Defying Gravity. Big, big number in this. In this musical. Idina's voice is, like, on full display, and it is this, like, outcast character singing, coming into her power and singing about it. And then many years later, there is a big musical movie where Menzel sings a song about an outcast character coming into her power and singing about it, and it is, like, a cultural phenomenon.

[Andrew]

Craig, I can't believe you won't let this go. You're always talking about this.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm always.

[Andrew]

I need you. I need you. I need you to let it go.

[Craig]

I will.

[Andrew]

This is what the song is about.

[Craig]

I do also need to share that one of my memories of this show is sitting around college lunch in the converted gymnasium that we ate lunch in for a few years while they built Our new cap, our new gym, I think. And voice of the intro of the show. Steve Dowling having negative opinions about the show Wicked.

[Andrew]

I am the least surprised I've ever been to hear that Steve does not like Wicked.

[Craig]

Well, he said that his. His opinions are probably. His harsh opinions have probably softened. I did ask him.

[Andrew]

We've all mellowed as we've approached Middle Ages. Yeah.

[Craig]

The summer that it came out, he was in a musical theater conservatory. And they all competed to sneak the little like leitmotif from the show into their performances to see if they could do it more than the Wicked score did. And no one could beat the Wicked score itself. And he said it's not his personal cup of tea. And I said, I have a vivid memory of eating tortellini and you slagging on the orchestration. And he said this 100% drags. Yeah.

[Andrew]

I mean, I know very little about musical theater. I do like the style of musical that it is. I will say, like listening to the songs right after reading the book is. It just puts me in the mind of the fake Planet of the Apes musical from the.

[Craig]

It's very. It's a little poppier than some. You know, it's on the popier end. I mean, the. Okay, we can go down a whole rabbit hole. Steven Schwarz did the music and lyrics and his other big works are Godspell and Pippen and then. And then this. He's a very accomplished.

[Andrew]

Loves. Loves a two syllable, one word.

[Craig]

He does. And he did. He did lyrics for a few of the Alan Menken Disney films as well. Hunchback and Pocahontas and of Egypt, sort of Silver Agey.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

After. Who's.

[Andrew]

After the. Like after the Renaissance had started to flag a little bit. But like before you're like before the movies have lost all artistic merit. Correct.

[Craig]

Yes. And yeah, it's just this fortune, this force of nature musical that is like really buoyed. I think in my experience watching it as a high schooler and just in reading the reviews of it by the production and the scale, there's like amazing set design. The costumes are bananas. The. Some of the stage tricks that they're able to pull. And when she flies and it's like, it's. It's just this big amazing thing you're watching.

[Andrew]

You can also hear like, you can easily hear in the, in. In the music where they're leaving space for people to laugh or leaving space for some kind of dramatic like visual effect or choreography or something. I know that that's True in. In many musicals, but you can really feel it in these songs, like, immediately.

[Craig]

But the book has been. And I. I don't know how the film works. I've. I've heard wildly positive things about the film. That is what I've heard and know.

[Andrew]

All about the film. I've heard positive things exclusively from people who already liked Wicked.

[Craig]

Sure. Fair enough. That it can get a little. That the book of the musical got a little preachy, got a little kind of simple. And it's allegorical stuff for people like.

[Andrew]

Me who had to. I'm sorry, that might be helpful for people like me who had to look up what the book of a musical was.

[Craig]

Oh, sure.

[Andrew]

Aside from, like, the lyrics and then. And the music of it all is. The book is the talking part.

[Craig]

The book is the script. So, you know, most. Most musicals are not just music and.

[Andrew]

Lyrics, which is called sung through.

[Craig]

Yes. But books are like the play part of the musical that stitches the songs together or the songs weave those scenes together, however you want to look at it. And the book of this show is not one of its high points in most estimations. But anyway, let's talk about Gregory Maguire.

[Andrew]

Yes. Please tell me.

[Craig]

He was born in 1954 in Albany, New York. He's the youngest of four. His mother passed away from complications, I think, after his birth, or birth of a sibling, I think. And he then spent time in an orphanage after being cared for by his aunt before his father reclaimed him upon remarriage. And so something in his, you know, this part of his biography weighs on him as he grows up. And then, like, there are. There are versions of it in his treatment of Elphaba and I think, her sister in the novel.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

He falls in love with literature, specifically, kind of like fairy tales and other children's books. As he's growing up, he goes and he studies English and children's literature at SUNY Albany Simmons College in Tufts. And he, you know, goes on to write a whole thesis about it. And his thing, I think, that I gleaned from a few interviews is that, like, people view a lot of children's lit as escapism. And his whole thesis, or master's thesis was on the ways in which children's lit reflects or explores kind of the political world in which they're written. You know, an example being kind of like, what is going on with the kids in Narnia vis a vis the war? You know, like, how much of that is in the page, the war? It's not in there, but, like, that Book comes out of a particular time.

[Andrew]

And sort of the anxieties implied or ignored darkness and like, just behind the background of what the action is. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yep. His first novel, the Lightning. The Lightning Time. Is that what it's called? I thought it is called the Lightning Time.

[Andrew]

I thought it's a cool.

[Craig]

I like cool name. And I thought I. Then the Lightning Thief is a different book. Lightning Time, 1978. He led the Simmons College center for Study of children's lit from 79 to 86. He founded a children's lit nonprofit in 97. And then Wicked comes out in 95. He's written a whole bunch of other books for children at that point, at least like eight or nine of them. But then this is his first quote, unquote, adult novel. And it's part of the Wicked. The Wicked Years series.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

Which includes. Yeah. Bit of a retro nym after, like the third book, I think.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The. The book. The. The series is Wicked in 95, which is about the Wicked Witch of the west who has given the name Elphaba in this. In this book, which comes from, I think, Frank Baum's elf.

[Craig]

Frank Baum.

[Andrew]

Elphaba there is son of a witch who is a. Which follows a. The. The son of Elphaba, who you do meet in this book, but who is mostly kind of a non factor in 2005. Lion among men, which is about the cowardly lion in 2008. And then out of Oz in 2011, which I think is about Elphaba's grandson.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Grandchild. I don't remember which one. Granddaughter, he. And that's it. Like, it's. That he's. I believe he has said that that's the last one like, he's done.

[Craig]

Okay. There is a Boston Globe article that went up a few weeks ago by Meredith Goldstein talking about where this book. The idea for this book started, that apparently friend of the show, Margaret Willison, what. Told Meredith Goldstein what street, you know, Maguire was living in when he conceived of this novel because their family knows Gregory Maguire.

[Andrew]

What.

[Craig]

Yes. I found this out too late to actually ask Margaret about any of this. I feel very bad.

[Andrew]

This is the most. This is the closest we've gotten to being able to do, like, original reporting on anything. Almost uncommonly whipped.

[Craig]

I'm kind of scared of doing that, and I don't want to, but that he may have.

[Andrew]

He.

[Craig]

He initially said that he had started this book after he moved to London, I think, 93, but that he may have had a draft a few years earlier and his Version of events of where. And that's what that article is about. It's just like, where did you get the idea for this book and did it happen there or not? And was Margaret right? That's like the whole article. It's kind of fun.

[Andrew]

Was Margaret right?

[Craig]

I think she was. But he embarks on this novel contemplating the nature of evil and what makes a person evil and who gets to decide that they are evil when we name them. That and his two points of inspiration, I suppose that he says in his own kind of myth making, is it was the Gulf War and people were referring to Saddam Hussein as the next Hitler. And he was like, well, I'm, you know, kind of a pacifist, but if you're telling me that this man is Hitler, like, I'm at least stirred to consider, like, what we need to do to stop him. And so he's thinking about how bad a person could be as well as what are the propagandizing forces that, you know, make us call to arms and things.

[Andrew]

Well, I'm sure there's some version of like, I think the US has had kind of a, let's call it a love hate relationship with dictators that it chooses to prop up in specific countries that is at play here too. He.

[Craig]

There was another interview where he talked about, I don't know if this is an event in the novel, something about like the kids from the movie of the Wick, the, the wizard of Oz, like going off to fight the Wicked Witch. And him comparing that to like, you know, sending our youth out to Vietnam. I was like, I don't know what Maguire was. I can't help you on that one, Mr. McGuire. But the other thing that makes a little bit more sense is the murder of James Bulger, who was like a 2 year old boy that this was in the early 90s, was killed by two 10 year old boys. And it's this really shocking, awful case that really rocked the uk where it happened in this sense of like, how did you. Why? Like, there's no good explanation for it. There's. It really messes with you if you try to think deeply about where that type of evil could come from in kids that young. And so he is thinking like, I am a children's author, I need to write something about evil. I need to get there, I need to find a character in which I can kind of talk about that. And also he grew up watching the wizard of Oz like every year on TV since he was five and was looking through children's literature for Versions of evil that he thought he could riff on or explore. And she jumped out at him based on his association with the film. So, yeah, that's where he says came from.

[Andrew]

There's. There is a whole, like, separate from the main Wikipedia article about the wizard of Oz, which is a good read if you have not been through it before.

[Craig]

There's just, like, a lot of stuff in there.

[Andrew]

There's so much stuff that happened on the set of that movie that just goes back to like, yeah, the makeup was basically poison. Oh, makeup on all of these performers is basically poisonous. And this was a big, big thing. But. Oh, man, what was I talking. What were we talking about?

[Craig]

Well, just the genesis of the book and the whole Wicked Witch evil thing.

[Andrew]

There's a whole separate article just about the wizard of Oz on TV. Like, oh, yeah, it was a selling of the TV rights and the initial airings that started in the 50s, I think, a little bit like movies like It's a Wonderful Life. Like, the reason why those successfully achieved, like, generational escape velocity is because they were just rerun on TV incessantly. Like, the A Christmas Story is like that, too.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Just movies that were rerun so much that they became a thing.

[Craig]

I mean, that's sort of just not that the.

[Andrew]

Not that the wizard of Oz movie wasn't a thing, but, like, that. That was where I think his generation, and even our generation, I think, like, picked up a lot of affection for that film and helped, like, cement its place in the firmament.

[Craig]

Yeah. And so he sells this book, he gets it published, he thinks it's a pretty good idea. And he right away thinks that maybe it doesn't sell very well. Right away, he tells some anecdote about, like, a reading where only seven people showed up and, like, four of them worked for the publisher or something. But he does get some initial TV and movie interest, which he expected would happen since he thought it was, like, a pretty good pitch. And it doesn't go anywhere as a film. But composer Stephen Schwartz is, like, snorkeling with someone who. He's like, what are you reading these days? And they're like, oh, this story about the Wicked Witch of the west and her origins. And he's like, sounds like that's my return to Broadway. That's his quote. And Schwartz approaches McGuire and is like, hey, the reason this isn't working as a film is because these characters have this, like, different psychology because of the nature of the source text. You. You need them to be able to have big emotions through song or Something like that. We can accomplish a lot of things that way on stage. And then he gets McGuire with his, like, idea for the opening number called no One Mourns the Wicked, which is this big choral number kind of celebrating the death of the wicked witch. And then the rest of the show is going to kind of undo the sincerity of that. If you even think it's, like, on the level in the first place. And Maguire's like, I think he understands what I'm trying to do. It might not be exactly what I would want, but that has sold me. And a year later, they're. They're making it into a show.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Then it's this giant phenomenon. It does. It does not. It gets 10 noni nominations. It does not win Best Musical, loses to Avenue Q of all things, which is the. A really good but incredibly dated show that no one would write today.

[Andrew]

We are not going to see avenue Q, Part 1 in theaters here in 2025.

[Craig]

I don't know that you are. I don't think that we're. That. I don't know how. Well, everyone's a little bit racist has aged. I don't. I don't know.

[Andrew]

You have to update it to be like, a lot of people are very racist.

[Craig]

Yeah, it had this kind of. I think it was operating in the same space that the. That area era of the Office was operating, where it's like, we can all make jokes about this because, like, we're post racism now. Right?

[Andrew]

Right. Yeah. Like, we're being super misogynist and sexist. But it's funny because we know and.

[Craig]

You know that this isn't real anymore.

[Andrew]

Yeah, there's a big, you know, there's a wink that's coming with this that everybody understands.

[Craig]

Anyway, I really liked Avenue Q at the time. I thought it was very good. The puppets were great. And some of the songs are still very, you know, catchy and have nostalgia for me. So I can't judge it objectively, but, yeah, that's. That's it. There's more. There's way more to be said on. On the musical and on the book and on the. How we get to a movie with Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo, then we can cover here. Anything else before we just, like, dive into the book?

[Andrew]

No, I've got, like, a few high level, like, again, like, takes. I've got some takes. I've got some. I've got some classic rants and I've got a few just like. Okay. If you've only seen the movie or watched the Musical. And you want to know what this book is about? Like here are the big differences.

[Craig]

Oh, I like that.

[Andrew]

But I think those all belong after the break.

[Craig]

Great. Well then let's take it and then people can find out.

[Andrew]

Craig, you know, something that's going to make you popular in the holiday season is great gifts.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And if you want to give someone a great gift, I've got a recommendation for you. An aura frame. Craig, you heard about these things. Aura frames are beautiful wifi connected digital frames that allow you to share and display unlimited photos. Super easy to upload and share photos via the Aura app. And if you're giving an aura as a gift, you can even personalize the frame with preloaded photos and memories. I've said this story before, but my, my aura frames that we were sent as promotional gifts so we could try the products out have ended up with my in laws who all like them very much. They like the app. They like that multiple people can upload photos from their phones on to the frames. So you know, multiple families can share grandkid pictures on the same frame. It's very easy to set up. These are all great things about aura that they like and that I think you will like.

[Craig]

Also, I'm going to be giving an aura frame as a gift this holiday season. I'm not going to say to whom in case they're listening. I don't want. I don't know if they listen. Right.

[Andrew]

Maybe it's you. There's like a sweepstakes where the winner has already been decided.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Andrew. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What makes you happy and cozy during the winter months?

[Andrew]

Blankies.

[Craig]

I love a blankie. Anything else?

[Andrew]

Pillows.

[Craig]

Pillows.

[Andrew]

The answers. Are you excited? Did you want me to come prepared?

[Craig]

No. These are good answers because it could be blankies, it could be pillows, it could be your Favorite movies, watching them with family. Some like seasonal food items that you enjoy. Right?

[Andrew]

A musical that you like.

[Craig]

Yeah. You know, alas, seasons change, Andrew, and these comfortable things aren't with us year round, you know? But therapy is a great way to bring yourself some comfort that never goes away, even if the winter of your discontent is made glorious by a son of York. That's my own editorializing right there. Speaking of the holidays, of course, therapy can be a great way to talk through the particular stresses of this time of year. You may need help setting some boundaries or focusing on how to be the best version of yourself in a season. That often asks a lot of us if you're thinking of starting therapy. Give better Help a try. It's entirely online and designed to fit conveniently into your schedule. You just fill out that brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com overdue to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com overdue.

[Andrew]

Craig, I was thinking about how we don't have the clearance to use any of the songs from the musical Wicked in our podcast.

[Craig]

You're right, we do not.

[Andrew]

And it was making me think, like, okay, what's like a. Because I was thinking about jokes that we could do in the intro of the show, and I was like, what if we did a cool, like, fair use, like, parodied sort of thing? And then my brain. My brain said, I am the very model of a wicked witch at boarding school. I just needed you. And I didn't have anything else after that because I couldn't let myself spend an hour just doing that. But it's in there somewhere.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And I just wanted to make sure that you knew that before we started talking about this.

[Craig]

If anybody. Are you okay with, like, people. Listeners of the show?

[Andrew]

Like, if people want to build on my work and then give me credit and like a 40% cut event proceeds, then yes, I am. I'm very open to being built on here.

[Craig]

Other. Other errata before we begin the novel.

[Andrew]

No, I don't. No, I don't.

[Craig]

No, I have. I have a few.

[Andrew]

Oh, you have errata. Okay.

[Craig]

I wanted to make sure that we mentioned that Stephen Schwartz wrote the musical with Winnie Holtzman, who was one of the creators or the creator of My so Called Life, the television show.

[Andrew]

Wow, cool.

[Craig]

And then I. I just was googling one of the things you had Asked me was, you know, how much was McGuire leaning on other Oz stories or not? And it. I couldn't find anything that said that he was it. Basically what I found was that he took the plot of the wizard of Oz, came up with a bunch of stuff that happened before it, and then wrote a book.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think if you roll into this knowing just the wizard of Oz, just, just the movie and then maybe like the first book also, like, they're definitely some like geographical things about Oz that I do not remember being like the. The book. I mean the movie does not open Lord of the Rings style with like a big map of the land. No. You take a tour through. So a lot of that stuff is sourced through the book.

[Craig]

But I do just need to share. I found a Reddit thread on R. Wicked where people were wondering what the overlap was and someone is saying, well, basically I see the wizard of Oz as the quote unquote propaganda and Wicked as what actually happened. And someone replied, yes, I see wizard of Oz as a propaganda film or a family friendly version of events, while Wicked is the story of quote, what really happened. And somebody replies dead wrong. Find and read the 40 wizard of Oz books. Wicked is not Conical. It's just an alternate tale by someone who wanted to glorify evil and is not in any way related to the author. And then Milf Hunter, 5000 replies. Wanted to glorify evil? My brother in Christ. It's a fiction book. Thank you MILF Hunter for your service.

[Andrew]

I can confirm that it's not. This book is not conical. It is sh. It is a book shaped book.

[Craig]

I don't think it's a YA fiction book though. Tell me more, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Ya. Depending on how a you're. You're willing to go.

[Craig]

That's a good way to put it.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

What is this book?

[Andrew]

This book is. Yeah, it is an account. So like the musical, you do see Glinda, who is for a while called Galinda. And then somebody dies and then she takes Glinda as her name because the person who died once mispronounced her name as Glinda.

[Craig]

That is part of the musical.

[Andrew]

Feels like a weird reason to take a different name than the name that you originally had. But whatever. Glinda and Elphaba, the Wicked Witch of the west do meet in college. They do have some adventures and then other things happen after that though, there's not like Glinda is. Okay, let's talk about book structure real quick.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

The book is split into several sections of a few chapters each Each section jumps ahead by a variable amount of time. It is measured in years, but you get anywhere from like a couple to like 14 or 15.

[Craig]

Oh, wow.

[Andrew]

The biggest jump is between the opening section, which is Elfie being born, and up.

[Craig]

That makes sense, her being like a.

[Andrew]

Year or two old. And then you jump right from that to, I'm Glinda, I'm going to college. Here's this green lady who I'm roommates with.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

So that's the biggest time jump. But yeah. And yeah. So the book begins with Alfie's birth and she's in her late 30s by the end, if you know the musical. My understanding is that the death of the wicked witch at the end is faked so she can run off with her lover. Doesn't.

[Craig]

So she can run off.

[Andrew]

Doesn't happen in the book that way. She is dead. She is dead.

[Craig]

I was wondering that. Yes, it is.

[Andrew]

It is like the. The ending is. It's the movie. Like, it's. It is what happens in the movie. It's just like told from a different perspective. But. But it. At the end of the movie, the wicked witch is dead, and at the end of this book, the wicked witch is dead.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Early sections are also usually like shifting perspectives kind of. You're never in like a first person view.

[Craig]

Close third.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's close third. And sometimes it's close third among, like multiple people. Like in the early section where Elfie's being born, you. You often feel like you're inhabiting like, many of the different people. Like it's parents and like Elfie's nanny and then some other.

[Craig]

I heard the word. I didn't hear. I didn't hear the word Dickensian, but I did see references to like, Dickens approach to a character. Like an evil character bandied about in this. And like, the idea that we would be inhabiting multiple perspectives at the birth of this, like, important person does also feel pretty Dickensian to me.

[Andrew]

So you're going from that early section and then you go to. Yeah, Glinda is your in. To the. To the college, which is called shiz, as it is in the musical. You inhabit for a while a munchkin college friend of theirs who's named Bach. B O, Q is how I pronounce.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Is it Boke? You're gonna have to correct my pronunciation based on.

[Craig]

Based on me remembering seeing the show from 20 years ago because most of these characters names are not named in the.

[Andrew]

That's Bach.

[Craig]

I listened to this earlier today. It's Bach. It's Bach. It's B.

[Andrew]

So yeah, you. You spend time with. With Bach for a few chapters. Then you jump out of the college years into the sort of post college period hanging out with the prince of a Vincus tribe named Fiero. And then after that, every jump, you're pretty much with Elfie from that point.

[Craig]

Is that where you meet Fiero? He's not in college.

[Andrew]

He is in college, but he's like. Toward the end of the college section, it's just like, hey, a Vincus classmate is here and he's part of the group now for some reason.

[Craig]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

And then we jump forward a few years and he's kind of come into his birthright and he happens to like, Elfie has. Elfie is run. Like, runs off from college. Nobody knows where she is. That's. That's how the college part of the book ends. Is she and Glinda go to see. Okay, let's back up. Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

So that's. That's the structure of the book. That's helpful to know when you get to the exclusively Elfied bit of the book is when it really starts to drag. I think there are. It does. It does this on purpose. It fulfills a narrative purpose to. To make the book act this way. It's just really long and kind of boring.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

So that's my. That's my main note. But we'll get to that. So let's. Okay, now we can do plot. Is green lady born Green Green lady green baby born. She has sharp teeth.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Andrew]

And it's. It's very disconcerting to a lot of people. Her first word is horrors.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

So a lot of, you know, a lot of ill omens, you. You could say. But then we flash forward to college and she's still. She's there, but she's still green. But she seems more or less like, you know, she's. People are nervous about getting to know her. She's a little prickly. She's not super excited to like befriend people, but ask a question. She's not. She's not like a weird monster. Okay. Yes.

[Craig]

There are talking animal people, right?

[Andrew]

Yes. So that's. That's what I'm gonna get to.

[Craig]

Okay. But people are upset that there's a green person.

[Andrew]

Well, okay, okay. There are talk. There are talking animal people. So in the, in the first section of the book, the political situation in Oz is that Ozma, who is one of a line of many people named Ozma who have ruled Oz for time, you know, since time immemorial. The current Ozma is a baby and the Ozma regent is taking care of the throne until the baby princess can grow into her own and take over herself.

[Craig]

Okay, cool.

[Andrew]

By the time you're in college, this new guy called the wizard has come onto the scene scene and he's starting to do things that are just a little, they, they're a little scandalous but also they're not getting a lot of pushback. It's just like a creepy sort of creeping fascism but for Oz. So in the college parts of the book, the wizard is just starting to ban certain kinds of travel for capital A animals who can walk around and talk and like have jobs and stuff. He bans hiring of animals. It's just like a slow eroding of the rights of talking animals within Oz. And you do get the, like, there are definitely people in Oz, including Elfie, who have an issue with this because they know, you know, they know animals and they like animals. And there's some, you know, there's some question that's never really resolved about like trying to dig down to like the scientific root of what makes a person sentient. And oh boy, there, there is a. Dr. Dillamond is a, is goat in the, in the college who is doing research, who's trying to figure out, okay, if I can show that there's some like, common link between like human people and capital A animals, then the basis for the wizards like anti animal laws are going to be undercut and he'll ha, he'll simply have to reverse himself on these things. Things.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And it is, there are a lot of stories where in, you know, 2024, seeing how democracies have eroded, especially the American sort of democracy has eroded in the face of people who don't particularly care what facts are or who are good at like generating their own facts about things. What, what I like about how this book treats power is yes, there are some naive people who think that you can just fax your way out of oppression of marginalized groups. And there's a, there's a moment in here where Elfie comes to the wizard with all of her papers and says, well, any thinking, any thinking person would need to reconsider their prejudices when presented with this, this information. The Wizard's just like, no, no, I don't, like, I don't. Yeah, yeah, like I'm just gonna do what I want because I'm in, because I'm, I'm in power and you' that's a big thing. For Elfie, like, a defining thing for her character is she takes up many causes that could be described as, like, noble or good. And she's just utterly either too late or too ineffective or just like, it's totally unable to change the course of any events.

[Craig]

Sure. Yeah. There's. In the book, I was struck in a couple of different interviews by just like, I, you know, I. Throughout that. That Vietnam thing that he said at one point, which did seem a little far afield. But he remarked in this 25th anniversary, like, Broadway world interview, the anniversary of the book, talking about the musical. And he says that, like, you know, he got. He married his partner in the late 90s. They're. They are adopting children in the early 2000s. And he's also saying, like, as we're inking the contracts for the musical, 911 happens. And then he's like, I'm still, I'm still surprised that they greenlit the musical. That is asking questions, at least as he intended, about how we legitimize our aggression against our enemies. Because then he watches the country just, you know, put 24 on TV so we can say it's okay to torture Muslim people. Right? Like, yes. So it. As. As much as I'm. It sounds like this is just a real shaggy book with some wacky stuff in it. Guide at least is asking the right questions, I think.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, I, I think those two things can. Can totally be true is the book. And the book can be too long by a good 150 pages.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And I think some of that. So, okay, so this, this meeting with the wizard happens. This is when Glinda and.

[Craig]

Wait, she's born, she goes to college.

[Andrew]

She'S born, she goes to college. She and Glinda sort of bounce off each other at first, but become friends. There is some latent, I think, romantic attraction between the two of them that they never act on, which I think that means there's probably a read of the show that puts that in there.

[Craig]

You could stage the show with that and it would feel totally fine.

[Andrew]

Yeah. But they go to present this thing to the wizard and they've established a whole friend group in college around trying to help Dr. Dillamund with his research. And they find Dr. Dillamund dead, murdered, apparently by, like, the headmistress's robot.

[Craig]

Oh, God.

[Andrew]

And they take his findings to the wizard to try and change things. It doesn't go well. Like, the wizard is just like, no, I'm not going to do anything differently. Okay, goodbye. And Elfie Says to Glinda, like, I'm not going back with you. I'm leaving. And so she disappears. And then you get a flash forward to a few years later. She's in a. She's in the Emerald City as like a. In part of a. It's what. What the government of Oz would define as a terrorist cell.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Where she is looking to kill the headmistress of the college because she thinks that the headmistress is like a pawn of the. The Wizard. There's a scene toward the end of the college bit where Glinda, Elfie and.

[Craig]

Elfie's sister, that Nessa.

[Andrew]

Nessa Rose, who ends up. Who ends up being the Wicked Witch.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

She basically says to all of them, like, you're. You're going to be sort of regents of different areas of Oz. And you. Like, I'd foresee this for all of you, but you can't talk about this when you leave this room because of, like, magic or spells. Like, Elfie is. Elfie believes that this headmistress has cast some spell on all of them to like, make them unwitting pawns in the wizards, like, continued oppression of people and his sort of mismanagement of Oz. And it does seem like Oz is mismanaged even though the wizard's power is not really threatened through the course of the book. Like, you mostly just see it grow. It's interesting. Yeah. The wizard, as he's portrayed in this is like exclusively like a fascist dictator. He's a. You get a brief glimpse of him in our world where he's like, failing or being discriminated against himself. Like, Elfie at one point sees, like, some vision of him walking away from a sign that says, like, no Irish need apply.

[Craig]

Oh my God, for a job.

[Andrew]

Just his head hung low. So he comes. He comes to Oz and like, you know, escaping a world where he is a failure, decides to assert his own power. And that's basically. That's basically his deal. I don't.

[Craig]

We'll talk about a dark version of Dorothy, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

But. So Elfie is going to kill this. This woman who she sees as being like, in league with the wizard. And she runs into Fiero who was at college with her, and they start up a. They start up a clan, clandestine relationship. Fiero is married and has, like, three kids. This is another departure point, I think.

[Craig]

That I do not recall any of this from the show.

[Andrew]

Sure. From. From the show. But this is like a thing. This is. This becomes a driving thing for Elfie for the rest of the book, she is just, like, for months having this affair with Fiyero. He's, like, ignoring his duties and not going home on time. She attempts to kill this headmistress, but it just doesn't work out. Like, a bunch of kids run out from some building, like, at the exact wrong moment and surround this woman and just make it impossible to kill her without also killing innocent people. And so Elfie does not. Not succeed in whatever her task is assigned to be. At the end of this section, Fiero is. Is attacked by agents of the, you know, of the Oz government and assumed to be dead. Okay, we skip forward a few years after this. Elfie is. She's been in some kind of, like, religious commune for a few years, including a couple years where she just basically, like, blacked out and doesn't know what happened.

[Craig]

Oh, my God.

[Andrew]

There is a kid who's following her around now who she's kind of, like, disassociated from. But this is. This is, for narrative purposes, understood to be the son of Elfie and Fierro.

[Craig]

Okay. Who will crop up in later books.

[Andrew]

Who will crop up in another in the next book, which is about him.

[Craig]

In the Wicked Years series. A moniker I'm definitely going to remember after that.

[Andrew]

But Elfie is traveling to the land of the Vincus tribes to, like, find Fierro's wife and apologize and try to get some measure of, like, forgiveness or, like, closure on that because she just sees herself as having wronged Fiyero's wife. And this is like, the book gets bogged down here because, like, there's a long travel section where you're suddenly paying attention to a bunch of people you've never met before. Like, every character you've established any interest in other than Alfie is just go, like, glinda's gone. Bach is gone.

[Craig]

This is a real tricky. I see this in TV happen sometimes. I'm struggling to think of a book that I've read recently that does this, but this. This structural trope sounds very familiar to me, where you take your main character out of the story you've constructed and, like, move them over. And usually this is like a. A book two of a series. I'm thinking of the Broken Earth trilogy, where, like, the main character in the second book is now in, like, a wholly different community and has to learn how to navigate it. And, like, that's just what that book is about. And it works.

[Andrew]

Hearing you describe the. The trope, I. I'm thinking of the fourth book of the Prydain series. Which is called Taran Wanderer.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Like, all the other characters are basically gone or they crop up in like, a chapter as Taran is just, like, wandering around the land. But it's a book about him kind of going off on his own, and it's a dividing line in his, like, development from boy to man. And I think it's a very. I think it's a very successful book, but it does.

[Craig]

It asks a lot of the reader who's, like, there for the world. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I think. I think it's one that I thought was more boring when I was younger, but then when I was older, I got. I got more into it and now think it's probably like. Like the. The best one of the. Of the. Of the five. But. But yeah, you just. You're just sending a character out on their own. And you. It. That book illustrates how difficult it is. Is you have to be really good at sketching in who those, like, other kind of one shot important for your. Your. You know, the character's development.

[Craig]

Because the reader is going.

[Andrew]

Characters are. Because the reader is like, who are these people and why do I care about them? Like, why is. Yeah. And that. That's. Unfortunately, you know, there are a couple of. Of characters in this who stand out a little bit. Like Fiero's wife. It does Is, you know, is compelling. She has kids who are all. Who have all established a little bit of their own personalities for. For like, good or ill.

[Craig]

But.

[Andrew]

But yeah, so she. She is traveling with these people who. You don't know. You don't need to know them because they all gradually go away one by one. She. She makes it to this. This castle where Fiera's family lives, and she talks to Fyre's wife, whose name is Sarima. Okay. And tries to say, hey, I knew your husband in school. Let me tell you some stuff about him and how I think he died. And Surima says, no, like, this is. This is my house. I have things. I have a version of events in my head that I can live with. And you are not allowed to tell me anything else about this because I just will not hear it in my house. And that effectively traps Elfie and also the narrative just in this castle in the middle of nowhere for a huge chunk of the book.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Because Elfie is. Is here trying to become close enough friends with Sarima that she will then hear what Elfie has to say about Fiyero so she can kind of be free of it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And that just never. It simply never happened. Is this like, until the log jam is cleared up by other stuff later. And it's not that this is totally without interest, but it's just like, okay, you spent all this time getting me invested in like this Munchkin character who seemed cool and Glinda and like the stuff that I know about coming into this from the book or from the movie the wizard of Oz.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And now I'm totally unmoored from all of that. And what.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm struck by this because none of this is in the musical. Right. Like, this is not in there.

[Andrew]

And also to the extent that you're like sympathizing with Elvie because she takes up like, quote unquote good causes. Like, she's not doing that stuff anymore because she's kind of pulled herself away from the world, like intentionally so. Yeah.

[Craig]

I'm wondering like, does. Does any. Does any part of this stand out to you or just vibe wise, like, as part of the. How she becomes the Wicked Witch? Like, does this.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The like Breaking Bad and we take Mr. Chips and then make him a bad guy kind of like.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean, like, like I, like I mentioned when I said this part drags like, like the narrative purpose that this fills is to one show Elfie kind of going from. It's like. It's kind of identity lists when she shows up, but people kind of start calling her a witch because she's got some like, light interest in.

[Craig]

It's got some magic ability.

[Andrew]

Like sorcery.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And she just kind of lets the identity stick because it's easier than being.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

And she like learns like, she, you know, she starts flying around on her broom because it becomes clear that it is. It is a magic broom. And it also makes it clear that Elfie's life, at least as far as, like, ha. As far as having an impact on the world and like accomplishing the goals. Whatever goals she has set out to accomplish is establishing Elfie as kind of a failure who is at the. Who's being buffeted by like, larger forces and is very frustrated.

[Craig]

Oh. So yeah, she'd have a kind of a low point here.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So by. So by the end of the book where like, Dorothy has finally shown up and she is kind of trying to. Because Dorothy is wearing her sister's shoes. Like that is. That has happened.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Nessa doesn't have arms and the shoes have been enchanted by Glinda to help. Help Nessa, like, stand up on her own. And. But, and also, but, but also they were originally, like, made by Elfie's dad, who always kind of seemed to like Nessa better. And so for Elfie, these are, like, a symbol of, like, family closeness that she just, like, never got to experience. So she becomes very fixated on getting these shoes back. Okay, so all of this sort of life in isolation and the character development that's happening during this, it's all to make it so that when we get to the end of the book and Elfie is kind of off her nut a little bit and, you know, trying to take these shoes from this little girl who everybody in Oz likes and.

[Craig]

Like, take her dog.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's. It's to make it so that, okay, yes, this character has fallen far enough that just, like, the little snippets of her that we see in the movie of her seeming super evil is just, like, the product of these years and years and years of failures and, like, interpersonal slights and grievances on top of grievances. And.

[Craig]

And, yeah, it just seems kind of why. Like, I. I can imagine why it drags if you are not even specific to your reading experience, but if you're reading it going like, oh, this is a retelling of the wizard of Oz. And so the first part of the book is, like, setting up a bunch of characters that map onto the wizard of Oz.

[Andrew]

And you even see, like, a little lion cub. And this is when the. This is during the college section where animal rights are being curtailed.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

And some jerk professor who replaces Dr. Dillamond brings in this lion cub and is like, hey, can anybody tell me if this cub is a lowercase L lion or an uppercase l lion? Hey, you can't tell me that because it's just a baby.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

And, like, trying to use that as. As sort of justification for. For why these things are different and so deserve to have fewer rights. And, like, Elfie kind of saves this little lion cub. And it's. This is, I think, the one spot where a person in the book Wicked is implied to become one of Dorothy's companions who, like, actually does become one of Dorothy's companions. Like, I think this lion cub, canonically in the book that is about the Cowardly lion is said to be this cub that, like, Elfie has.

[Craig]

Because it is my understanding that some of the things that the musical does with regard to Dorothy's companions are not part of the book at all.

[Andrew]

The book either explicitly says that it is not that way or it just doesn't make mention of it one way or the other. So the two big ones are the Scarecrow and the Tin Man.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

In the musical, I think like the whole second part of it is about like how the scarecrow is secretly Fiyero who never actually died.

[Craig]

So yes it is that Fiyero is being tortured I think because of his connection to Elphaba. Elphaba also has a tighter connection than you've described with the wizard in the musical where the wizard is this like initially presented as a tutor of magic and then he's using her magic power to advance his anti animal agenda or something.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So you get.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The relationship between the two of them in this book is so there is like the wizard had. Has come to Oz in the first place like looking for this like scary magic like grimoire that comes from our. That comes. That comes from our world.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And only he can read it because it is something that has come from our world as he has. But Elfie has found this like some. Some guy came to Sarima at some point in the past and just left this book with her for safekeeping.

[Craig]

Weird.

[Andrew]

And so Elfie finds it and nobody in. Nobody who's like native to Oz can really make out what this text is. And Elfie has trouble with it because it like shifts around. Like sometimes indecipherable parts suddenly become clear and vice versa. But she can like half read this book and you do like it is. And there's some stuff in the. The. The first part of the book about Elfie's mom just kind of being frustrated being like married to a minister and. And kind of having sex with any. Any guy who kind of comes through and seems cool is the daughter of the wizard.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

In. In both. I don't know if that's the case in the show, but that's. That's their relationship in the book. The wizard's just like not physically around a ton for them to have like a one to one relationship.

[Craig]

I do not believe that is how the show works. I can't be mistaken the the versions of the Tin man and the Scarecrow in the musical Our bow. I believe Elphaba is trying to like save Bok at one point from danger. Some sort of spell that is going to like hurt his heart. So she transforms him into someone who does not have a heart so that he cannot die. And then later Fierro has been taken or trapped and. And she to save him from torture turn like like issues some spell to like keep him from feeling pain and that turns him into the Scarecrow.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And so that is not the book.

[Andrew]

That is not the book in the book. So the. The Tin man thing, like, you meet Bok, and he's just like a family man. And he and Alfie were very friendly in school, but he kind of recoils from her on their. Not. Not on their first meeting after, like, the college section is done, but their second meeting where she's become a little more unhinged. He recoils from her. And this is like a. It does serve the character insofar as it's like, here's one less thing, like, Mooring Elfie to any kind of, like, yeah. Normal life. Or, like, you know, to any person who she could call a friend. Sure, fine. But the Tin man is just like some guy.

[Craig]

Yeah. Nick tries.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And like, maybe it's a spell that Nessa did that, like, caused the Tin man to be. But he's just like. He's got no connection to Elvie at all.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

The scarecrow thing is she briefly tells herself toward the end of the book that the scarecrow could be Fierro. Cause Fierro's a Like a we never see a body thing.

[Craig]

Oh, sure. Okay.

[Andrew]

Okay. So she tells herself briefly, well, this scarecrow might be Fierro. And I don't. I don't need forgiveness. Like, I don't need to be trapped in this remote area by my need for forgiveness if he's not dead in the first place. But then. And so she. She's kind of convinced herself that the scarecrow is like Fiero in disguise. But then the scarecrow does get, like, torn apart, and she's like, no, I guess it's not Fiero. I guess it's just. I guess it's just like an enchanted scarecrow.

[Craig]

Oh, boy.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, that. That's part of my issue with the. The something. I think the musical seems like it does a little better is like you just have fewer of these loose end characters whipping around. It does like. Like, it does contribute to a thing that I don't love about a lot of prequels. And, like, to the extent that I didn't like Better Call Saul as a prequel to Breaking Bad, it was because it was like, half. This is just, like, where it's playing. Connect the dots to the source.

[Craig]

Yeah. You. You don't find that as a fun Easter egg?

[Andrew]

No. When it's just like. It's just like, I like. You cannot create tension in this situation where I know how the story ends already.

[Craig]

How do you feel about the Star wars prequels are the high work of George Lucas's career.

[Andrew]

Complicated. Yeah, like that they are that they are better than any Disney era Star wars movies except for maybe Rogue One and Last Jedi. I agree, but they're better than the other ones. Force Awakens seemed good at the time, but it was retroactively ruined by other decisions they made. And Rise of Skywalker is like the worst movie I've ever seen. I've never. Would you.

[Craig]

You know, I love Star Wars. Never seen Rise of Star Wars. Rise of Starwalker. Never rise.

[Andrew]

Don't do it, Craig.

[Craig]

I'm refusing.

[Andrew]

We did not. We didn't see it in theaters. And this was like a pandemic era. Yeah, like deep pandemic era viewing decision that Susan I made is when it was appeared on Disney plus, like, okay, we're gonna see this. And I, I think the re election of Donald Trump has sort of salvaged the part of the opening crawl where it's like somehow palpat back.

[Craig]

That's very good.

[Andrew]

But no, it's not. It's nonsense. It's bad. It's a bad. It's a bad flick.

[Craig]

Star wars and I've never seen it. And I do. I think the first half of Force Awakens might be better than some of the prequels. But I have with you on the.

[Andrew]

In terms of like, how it is as a, like a creative product that has like a beginning and a middle and an end and like knows how to direct actors and stuff. Like. Yeah, obviously it's a. It's like a better crafted film that hangs together better.

[Craig]

Yes. But it has a little bit, I think.

[Andrew]

Yeah. All of the prequels though, like, they, they at least have. They have a creative mind behind them and you can tell that it. That there is one creative force behind them because you can tell exactly what George Lucas cares about and what he does.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's true. You're right.

[Andrew]

So I don't know. Maybe better is not the right word. Maybe more interesting is the right word. I did want to Star wars diversion.

[Craig]

Well, no, I actually had a more relevant Star wars diversion that I thought a few minutes ago is just in these. You and I were slacking a little bit about stories that take this villain character and try to explain it a little bit. Whether or not that I don't. I don't think we need to talk about Todd Phillips Joker movie very much. That's. That's a whole other thing. It's not even like referencing Batman at all.

[Andrew]

I think part of. Part of what this book is, what makes this book notable is that I Think it is kind of on the. On the earlier end of that timeline of. Let's take a. Like a classic villain and give them some shading and some nuance. And by the time you get to, like, the Hunger Games prequel and the Joker movie, like, I'm sick of it. Stop doing it.

[Craig]

Well, and this is doing something interesting relative to even the Star prequels, I think, which is like. Like we heard on the Reddit, this book is saying that the original text is a lie. Like, it is not just, oh, it's a prequel to the existing story. It is like the book that you have read, the movie that you have watched is a misrepresentation of events. That is, which is a little more than just a perspective shift, which I think is kind of interesting. Versus, this is just how Darth Vader became Darth Vader. He killed those younglings. He cried about it. Now he's Darth Vader.

[Andrew]

I'm going to quibble with putting. Well, just with you putting Star wars kind of on this. On the same. Like, the Star wars prequels are not. Are not.

[Craig]

They're doing more than that. You're right.

[Andrew]

Well, no, it's not even that they're doing more. It's like, like in this, you're like, okay, here's a character who we understand to be fully, wholly evil. Let's add some nuance to that, make it less black and white.

[Craig]

Fair, fair, fair, fair, fair.

[Andrew]

Star wars, like the original trilogy. The point is that Darth Vader is Anakin, and he. There's something in him that's good that Luke sees and successfully brings out. And then the prequels are just like filling in backstory for you kind of already know to be. Yeah, yeah, it's more of a tragic point. Whereas it's not like, like, so if the Star wars prequels were actually like, here's this guy, Senator Palpatine. What a great guy. He loves. He wants to give everybody health care. But then suddenly he became evil. Like, if that's what the prequels had.

[Craig]

Been about, then I would agree, passed in the Galactic Senate and it failed. And he became a Sith.

[Andrew]

And then he became. And then he became the Star Wars Joker, which is what the emperor is. It's just the Star Wars Joker. No, the Star wars thing is like the emperor came out of the womb being evil and. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know. I'm not saying Disney do a young Palpatine show, but it is one unexplored, like, rock in that series that you could turn over and look at the other people. Just see what happens.

[Craig]

As we were talking about, like, where this fits into the trope of villain retcons. Like, you know, we've read the book Grendel, which comes before it. But the other thing, we, of course.

[Andrew]

Love Joker and Hysteres.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

We love his stairs and his fully his Foley do or whatever.

[Craig]

Everybody hates that movie. The thing that makes me think of also is the. The. It's not related to villains, but it is related to the uniqueness of when this show came to Broadway. The other thing that's happening on Broadway vis a vis adaptations is that Disney has been, like, year after year, rolling out these incredibly successful stage adaptations of their musicals, particularly the. Particularly the golden age movies, culminating in the Lion King, which is Lion King.

[Andrew]

Being the big one. Yeah.

[Craig]

Still the highest grossing Broadway show of all time. And Wicked is number two. And one of the reasons that Stephen Schwartz was like, oh, this is my ticket back to Broadway is here is a thing that everybody knows we can and this will sell. Like, you know.

[Andrew]

Yes. But Disney don't own it. So I don't.

[Craig]

But Disney don't own it. But it is like the landscape of Broadway that it's coming into for sure. And it is certainly why when McGuire wrote the book, he's like, people will buy this book from me.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Whether or not they buy the book itself or they buy the rights to it. You know, how does this book end, Andrew? When does it. When does it become the wizard of Oz?

[Andrew]

It becomes the wizard of Oz because Dorothy and friends, like, show up to the castle at the end, and Dorothy accidentally, like, lights the witch's broom on fire and then try both it. Both Dorothy and Elfie are kind of trying to de. Escalate the entire final encounter. Kind of.

[Craig]

That's interesting.

[Andrew]

Dorothy does not want to have the shoes on. She wants to take them off. They are magically glued to her feet, and she will gladly give them over to Elfie, but she can't. And, yeah, then Elfie's broom gets set on fire. Dorothy grabs a bucket of rainwater and just, like, splashes it on the witch without understanding how the whole water thing works. And then that's the end of the book.

[Craig]

Can you tell?

[Andrew]

So you know how in the movie the wizard of Oz, and this is my. This is my. This is my rant. And do you have anything else to say before the rant train gets going? Because I think the rant train is gonna. Is an express that takes us directly to end of podcast station when he.

[Craig]

Was Writing the book, he thought, what if Antonio Banderas played it, played Fiera on tv, and Katie Lang was Elphaba?

[Andrew]

I'd be interested in that.

[Craig]

That.

[Andrew]

This is. That's extremely. A guy who wants to meet Katie Lang. Energy, though. Like that.

[Craig]

When they do it on stage, they do it with. When they dump the water on her, they do it with, like, a big screen and they do it in shadow. So, like, you don't know if it's a theatrical device or if it's a storytelling, this never happened device. And then it's kind of clever. I watched a YouTube video of it. It. It's pretty cool when you just think about how it's people moving closer to or further away from a big sheet. Like, I love theater so much. But anyway, tell me your. Tell me your issues with the water. Please, man.

[Andrew]

Okay, so in the movie the wizard of Oz, you never really hang out with the Wicked Witch at all. So you don't have to consider, like, how's this woman drink? How's. What does she. What does she do when she has a pair? Does she get her period? Sometimes. Like, these are things that you don't need to think about when you're watching the movie the wizard of Oz, but they are things that you have to think about when you're reading the book Wicked, part of the Wicked Years series.

[Craig]

Does Maguire. Think about it.

[Andrew]

Elfie from babyhood is scared of water and won't go in. Okay, but what the book considers to be water and not water is so bonkers. And I get that it has to be this way because you have to allow this woman to exist in this world. So, okay, so in the world of Oz, Craig, let me posit to you that water fulfills the same basic function as it does in our world as we understand it. Plants need water to live and people need water to live. People need drink. Yeah, people need drink. Water.

[Craig]

People need drink.

[Andrew]

So could you tell me just gut reaction. I know you're not a scientist, but do you think that the liquid in a glass of water and the liquid part of a glass of wine are, like, molecularly different on some level that would render them different substances?

[Craig]

Probably not. Probably. I bet what you're about to tell me is that Elphaba will drink wine, but she won't drink water.

[Andrew]

She'll drink. She'll drink tea, she'll drink wine. She can drink ale. She can drink things.

[Craig]

Now, I do.

[Andrew]

Breathing in air, which famously does have water in it, does not seem to bother Elfie. She does give birth to A child at some point, which I can tell you from personal experience, does involve a lot of water, a lot of fluids.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Of many kinds.

[Craig]

Because you. You were born once. That's.

[Andrew]

Well, I was born once and I also. I have seen someone being born.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's just. It's just a wet. It's a wet experience.

[Craig]

But no, the only thing about the wine and the ale thing is that if I told my doctor that I was. I was hydrating by drinking wine and beer, he might be a little upset.

[Andrew]

That's just because it has alcohol in it, though. Like, what if you told him you were hydrating by drinking like Diet Coke or something? He'd probably be like, well, tsk, tsk. But you're still alive.

[Craig]

So that is true. That's often what my doctor says. Tis, Tisk. You're still alive. But no, I'm with you.

[Andrew]

When she cries, Craig, her tears do kind of hurt her.

[Craig]

What?

[Andrew]

At one point, she's holding the baby and the baby pees in its diaper, and then she hands the baby off before the pee can soak through the diaper and get on her. What? So, like, water is water, tears is water, pee is water. But drinks isn't water. What are we doing? What are we doing?

[Craig]

What?

[Andrew]

It's just. It is. It's fine.

[Craig]

It's funny. It's fun.

[Andrew]

It's fine. But it is. The book does have to bend over a little bit to just be like, yeah, she just kind of carries an umbrella around all the time and don't worry about it, really.

[Craig]

The Wicked Witch of the Wet over here.

[Andrew]

The Wicked Witch of the wet. I just. The water thing doesn't make any sense when you have to live with a person for like 38 years of their life.

[Craig]

When I was. I can't remember what year this film. When did the film Signs by M. Night Shyamalan come out?

[Andrew]

I believe that is 98 or 99.

[Craig]

Though that seems very early because. 99, but maybe.

[Andrew]

Well, no, no, no, no, no, because. Okay, okay, okay. No, it was like 2001 or 2000.

[Craig]

2002. 2002.

[Andrew]

Because I remembered that I was supposed to go on a date to see the movie signs. And instead of seeing the movie signs, me and my girlfriend at the time made out in the car in a parking lot. And then we came back to my parents house and my mom and dad were sitting on the couch wearing a tinfoil hats like in the movie, as a reference, like in the movie signs. And I was like, what are you doing?

[Craig]

Oh, no, that rules. Famously, the aliens in that movie can be defeated by water splashing on their skin, which is why Abigail Breslin doesn't drink any water. Because of God. Told her.

[Andrew]

Not how the world, the world. World's aliens work too. Or do they just get exposed to like air or disease or something?

[Craig]

They get germs, they get bacteria. They were, they were harvesting us for food and they didn't anticipate that bacteria might be involved, which doesn't make any sense.

[Andrew]

That's why you need to, that's why you need to have a FDA on your planet.

[Craig]

But signs. Signs is one of those things where like, like I didn't think a lot about it as an impressionable teenager and I just kind of liked. I thought the movie was kind of neat. I didn't know really anything about Mel Gibson, so I didn't think about that either. And then everyone was like, but why there's water in the air though? And I said, I don't care. That one part where everyone watched the TV and got scared that that's a good movie.

[Andrew]

It's funny how like, even, even when you know stuff intuitively, like when you're a little, when you're just a little boy, the two things that you know are like the wizard, the Wicked Witch of the west gets killed when you splash water on her and I am like 70% water. Like that's one of the, the first facts that you learn about your own biology is how much.

[Craig]

So what is she?

[Andrew]

Is how much water you are.

[Craig]

How much water is she? She's 100% water.

[Andrew]

Now she goes way out of her way to avoid like using water when she's cleaning like dishes or herself, which the book never really talks about how that works.

[Craig]

She must smell. Unless magic, maybe magic or she just.

[Andrew]

Is really good at cleaning with not the water.

[Craig]

With not the water.

[Andrew]

People do like that dry shampoo, right? Though that's nonsense. Isn't dry shampoo.

[Craig]

I think that's fake.

[Andrew]

I think that's fake.

[Craig]

I don't know anything about it.

[Andrew]

Sorry, dry shampoo lovers. You can send us an email. But the point is it's really bonkers how often the book has to address her not going near water while she's also continuing to go about the business of being a living person in a world where water is a life giving substance.

[Craig]

No, I love that and I love that we're closing on this because it's like, yes, you, Gregory Maguire wanted to write a book about the nature of evil. The propaganda that surrounds labeling People as evil.

[Andrew]

But you are stuck with this lady who does have water as her main weakness.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And you do have to stick with that one.

[Craig]

You do have to solve that for your book.

[Andrew]

Huh.

[Craig]

And I appreciate the musical was like, we can't. It's fake. She faked it. She's gonna get away because the musical is about her and Glinda being best good friends. And, like, Glinda is in on the ruse that she's been killed to protect her friend.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And, you know, she's sad that her friend became a wicked witch, but now it's okay because they're better now.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, Glinda and Elfie don't have, like, an explicit. The closest they come to a falling out is, like, Glinda basically gave her sister's shoes to Dorothy. And it does become a thing between them, but it doesn't quite make them, like, enemies. They don't part as enemies because of this. It is just a thing in between them. And then Glinda really does not have anything. Anything to do with the rest of the book.

[Craig]

Weird.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

All right.

[Andrew]

So sorry. If you. If you, like me, bought this book expecting it to be like, a slightly more fleshed out or different adaptation of the movie or stage show that you just saw, and you were surprised. Welcome. This is where I live.

[Craig]

Yes. There are copies of this book out there now with Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo on it.

[Andrew]

There have got to be.

[Craig]

And this is not the movie that you watched this or even half of the movie you watched this pocket.

[Andrew]

This podcast episode is for all of you who own a copy of this book that says now a major motion picture on the COVID of it somewhere. Because it is in many ways not a major motion picture. Because this is not the movie. This is not what you have seen on the screen.

[Craig]

We're here to debunk it or something.

[Andrew]

Just tell him truths. Throwing w. Just throwing some cold water on. On these. These people.

[Craig]

Hey, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Yeah. What?

[Craig]

Thanks for holding space with this book for me.

[Andrew]

Oh, of course.

[Craig]

Just really appreciate. I'm feeling a lot of power in it right now. So.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean, I feel I'm. I, I. Now that we've recorded it, I feel like I'm defying gravity in. In many ways for good, even.

[Craig]

That's our podcast, everyone. If you want to send us an email about. About your wicked memories or your memories of the musical. Wicked, you said Those are wicked memories, whatever those are.

[Andrew]

Or if you just have unadulterated loathing about this, this episode, and the way that we've chosen to to cover this. These works.

[Craig]

Send us an email overdue podmail.com hit us up on social media at Overdue Pod. We're on Blue sky and Instagram most of the times these days. Thanks to Maria, Robert, Rebecca, Becky, Jennifer, Rosalind, Danny, Shea, Marcy, and more for reaching out in the past week. Our theme song is composed by Nick Langes. Andrew. If folks want to know more about the show, where they go.

[Andrew]

Overdue podcast.com is that Internet website. Up there. We have the books that we have read and are going to read. We have finalized our December schedule, gang. Craig, you want to run us down it real quick?

[Craig]

Yes. Neuromancer by William Gibson is next. Then A Mafia Mistress for Christmas by Brooke Harper and closing out the year with the Princess Diaries by Meg Cabot.

[Andrew]

The Mafia Mistress book, if. If it's not clear from context clues, is part of our Happy Horny Days series. Oh, yes, this will. This will not be an SFW episode of our podcast.

[Craig]

No, I assume.

[Andrew]

Unless it's a much different book than the COVID and the blurb that led me to.

[Craig]

In the same way that Gregory Maguire tells people, there's a. There's an article from 2007 called Mr. Wicked about the success of the show. And it opens with an anecdote of him telling people who are asking him to sign his book teenagers. And he's saying, don't read it yet. You have to get older before you could read my book.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. Similarly, thank you for listening to the show, no matter what age you are. But A Mafia Mistress for Christmas by Brooke Harper is going to be a happy Hornady's episode. So just. I don't know what that.

[Andrew]

What's the thing that you're referring to? Oh, you're talking about Hornides, the horny bird.

[Craig]

What did I say?

[Andrew]

The horny songbird who appears in the woods.

[Craig]

I said an Oz word by accident.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we gotta oppress the hornadies because they don't deserve to have the same rights as everybody else. Patreon.com overdue pod is our patreon page. Support us there financially. You pay for supplies and equipment and all kinds of other stuff that the show absolutely needs to function. Thank you so much to everybody who does that, who holds space in their bank accounts for us. We cannot express our appreciation enough. Yep, that is what we got. All right, everybody. Craig, you good?

[Craig]

I just wanted to thank Milf Hunter 5000 again for his service.

[Andrew]

Thank you. And thank you, Milf Hunter 5000. As always, you're an invaluable resource and I hope that an AI model has been trained on your wisdom. Until we talk to your next week, everybody, please try to be happy. That was a Headgum podcast.