Ep 684 - Thornhedge, by T. Kingfisher

Summary

Overdue Podcast Episode Summary: Ep 684 - "Thornhedge" by T. Kingfisher

Release Date: January 6, 2025 | Host: Headgum

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1. Introduction

In the inaugural episode of 2025, Andrew and Craig dive into their backlog with "Thornhedge" by T. Kingfisher. The hosts set the stage by reflecting on societal resolutions and the joy of rediscovering overdue books. Their lively banter establishes a casual and engaging atmosphere for the discussion.

Notable Quote:

Craig [00:05]: "Guys will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now."

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2. Exploring T. Kingfisher and Ursula Vernon

Craig introduces T. Kingfisher, the pen name of Ursula Vernon, highlighting her accolades, including a Hugo Award, and her diverse bibliography that spans classic literature, children’s books, and adult fiction. The duo delves into Vernon's dual identity, explaining how she uses different names to cater to varied audiences without confusing her reader base.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [05:00]: "Ursula Vernon as T. Kingfisher, writing without paying royalties to anybody."

They discuss Vernon's background, mentioning her education in anthropology and art, and her initial fame from the webcomic "Digger." Craig appreciates Vernon's cleverness and versatility, noting her ability to blend genres seamlessly.

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3. The Art of Fairytale Adaptation in "Thornhedge"

"Thornhedge" is characterized as an award-winning novella that reimagines classic fairy tales with a darker twist. Craig articulates Vernon's interest in exploring "what if the princess was the villain?" This unconventional approach sets "Thornhedge" apart from traditional narratives, offering a fresh perspective on familiar stories.

Notable Quote:

Craig [09:07]: "What if the princess was the villain? Like, what if the person, the princess that was sleeping and was contained, was contained for a reason?"

The hosts trace the lineage of "Sleeping Beauty" from its origins in 14th-century romances to its modern adaptations, including Disney's rendition. They contrast the sanitized versions with Vernon's grittier take, which includes themes of betrayal, violence, and moral ambiguity.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [12:19]: "The original involves double crossing and sexual assault and attempted cannibalism and people almost being burned alive for their perceived crimes. So, like, it's not. It's not what you would think of as a Disney movie."

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4. Detailed Plot and Character Analysis

Craig provides an in-depth summary of "Thornhedge," focusing on the protagonist, Toadling, a fairy creature with water-based magic who has been tasked with containing the villainous Princess Fayette in a thorn-covered tower. The discussion highlights the complex relationship between Toadling and Fayette, as well as the arrival of Halim, a knight from a Muslim royal family determined to "save" the princess.

Notable Quote:

Craig [24:38]: "And she has some water magic. She can go into her toad skin form and turn into a toad."

The hosts analyze the themes of isolation, misinformation, and societal judgments that permeate the novella. They explore how Vernon's portrayal of Toadling as a sympathetic, marginalized character challenges traditional hero archetypes. Andrew connects the narrative to broader societal issues, likening the story's media environment to real-world misinformation and prejudice.

Notable Quote:

Andrew [32:17]: "There's a lot of misinformation around there about what's happening in this tower."

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5. Themes and Insights

Andrew and Craig delve into the novella's exploration of storytelling and truth. They discuss how "Thornhedge" questions which narrative prevails—the established fairy tale versus Toadling’s personal account. The conversation touches on the importance of empathy and understanding marginalized voices, as Halim chooses to believe Toadling over entrenched myths.

Notable Quote:

Craig [50:52]: "It's a sweet little novel that has to do with a princess trying to kill everybody."

They also highlight Vernon's ability to infuse emotional depth into her characters, maintaining a fairy-tale quality while addressing dark and complex issues. The hosts appreciate the balance between poetic storytelling and effective plot progression, noting how the novella remains engaging without becoming overly convoluted.

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6. Conclusion and Recommendations

Wrapping up, Craig and Andrew highly recommend "Thornhedge" for its unique take on fairy tales and its thoughtful exploration of character and theme. They praise Vernon's writing style, which combines evocative, dreamy prose with substantial emotional resonance.

Notable Quote:

Craig [52:15]: "Most people would probably like this book. I think it's a good recommendation, I think."

The hosts encourage listeners to explore Vernon's work and reflect on the narratives that shape our understanding of classic stories. They also tease upcoming episodes, maintaining excitement for future book discussions.

Final Thought:

Andrew [58:08]: "Please try to be happy."

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7. Future Episodes Preview

The duo briefly mentions the month's reading schedule, including "Before the Coffee Gets Cold" by Toshikazu Kawaguchi and "Chicken Soup for the Soul" by Jack Canfield et al. They assure listeners of engaging future content, blending literary analysis with their trademark humor and camaraderie.

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Overall, this episode of "Overdue" offers a comprehensive and insightful exploration of "Thornhedge" by T. Kingfisher, blending literary critique with engaging discussion. Andrew and Craig successfully highlight the novella's strengths, making their analysis both accessible and compelling for listeners new and old.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

Ow.

[Andrew]

I just pricked my. My finger on a hedge.

[Craig]

Don't go to sleep.

[Andrew]

Hedge this thorny head.

[Craig]

If you go to sleep, you'll stay asleep forever. Oh, no. Everyone. I hear podcasting for the rest of the year by myself. Oh, wait, he's awake. I just.

[Andrew]

Wait. Yes, I'm awake. Y. That woke me up. The thought of you having. The thought of you getting all the, like, the ad money and everything all to yourself woke me up. And here I am. I mean, I was thinking about if we want to do a 2025 thing in the opening, because this is the first episode of 2025. Welcome, everyone. You're. You're. Yeah, we're not in here with you. You're in here with us. And like, we. We're just not doing resolutions anymore. Right. Because if, like the. If the world is so steadfastly opposed to self betterment, then why should we do it?

[Craig]

Yeah. I'm living in 480p. Like, I am not progressing forward. I am going backward, baby.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Just like, how simple can I make it? I don't want you to see the details of my life. I don't need it.

[Andrew]

We're just like. We're so. We as a society are so determined to do a stupid thing that we did already.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And hope that it's better this time. That I'm just like, you know what? I'm. I'm gonna try to go outside more. That's. But that's just for me. That's not a resolution.

[Craig]

It's. You have to do it.

[Andrew]

It's just. It's just a thing I was thinking, and it's January.

[Craig]

Mm.

[Andrew]

Let's not put labels on it.

[Craig]

I think that's a good idea. Your relationship to new. I like. Don't. Don't put labels on it, man.

[Andrew]

Don't put labels on a, man.

[Craig]

Well, here, I'll put a label idea.

[Andrew]

I'm having in this January, and then I'll stop having the idea. And it's mid February. But it's not a New Year's resolution. It's just a thing that happened.

[Craig]

It is just a thing that happened. Another thing that happened is that we every week record a podcast about books. One of us reads the book and tells the other person about it. And this episode is no different. We've broken no rules. We're following the standard format here to kick off the year 2025.

[Andrew]

I think your New Year's resolution should be to not talk about it. If we're not breaking the rules.

[Craig]

I'll consider it because you do talk.

[Andrew]

We don't break the rules very often.

[Craig]

We've been breaking the rules pretty regularly. We're just, you know, rascals like that. We love to. To bend and. Or break a rule. But this time, again, as I said, we have not. So I'm going to tell Andrew about the book Thornhedge by T. King Fisher, the one of the pen names of Ursula Vernon. And it is a award winning novella from Hugo Awards. Oh, Locusts maybe also and could be. Yes, Logos award, published in 2023. Kind of bubbled up out of some. You know what is an interesting recent genre book that I could read for the show. It had a great hook as a retelling of a classic fairy tale, which kind of gives us a way in. I've not read anything else by Kingfisher or Vernon or any other name that she's used as an office.

[Andrew]

Does she have others? Those are the only two that I. That I saw. But maybe you know and maybe you don't.

[Craig]

I could be mistaken of thinking there. There was another one.

[Andrew]

Okay. The only ones on her website are. Are those two Vernon and Vernon and Kingfisher. And they both have pretty specific roles.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

They'd serve within. Well, tell me more her body of work. I also wanted to say, you know, if you're enjoying an adaptation of a classic fairy tale, one of the reasons why you can do that is because things aren't copyrighted forever because. Oh sure, and it's January. There's public domain stuff. I don't have anything prepared. It's just fun.

[Craig]

We'll get there later this year. We have some books that we want to cover.

[Andrew]

Public domain.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But yes. So Ursula Vernon as T. Kingfisher, writing without paying royalties to anybody. An update slash adaptation of the classic fairy tale Sleeping Beauty. She was born in 1977. She is a Hugo and Nebula award winning author, an illustrator of both children's and adult fiction. And she stresses on her website that by adult she means not written for children and not necessarily like horny.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

But yeah, has written both children's and YA and adult fiction sometimes. She's a podcaster she grew up in Oregon and Arizona, attended college in Minnesota, where she studied anthropology, but also took art classes. This is relevant because she initially became known for her webcomic, something called Digger, which I never read. But this did run during what I would define as the golden era of webcomics between 2003 and 2011.

[Craig]

I read an interview. Did you read the Locust Mag interview with her? She talks about this where she, like, for many years earned money making her art, in particular anthropomorphic animals. And she went out of her way to thank all the furries for buying her art. Like, she just credits them with, like, running the Internet and, you know, building good places for people and. Yeah, you know. But yes, Digger is the thing that gets her an agent. To quote her by accident, she said.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it won a Hugo, it was nominated for an Eisner Award. I think it's been published in like half a dozen collections at this point. Her bibliography includes written work that is published as early as 2004. But things really begin to pick up for her in the late 2000s and early 2000s, most notably when her first kids series, Dragon Breath, begins being published in 2009, which she does like once a year until like the mid 2010s, and then shifts to the Hamster Princess series, which I think is still ongoing. But yeah, she tends to go with the T. Kingfisher name with books written for older audiences and then with her real name for. Or with the. Yeah, with a real name for books written for younger audiences because she didn't want adults who were familiar with her children's work. Like she did become known and notable as a children's author before. Before she was known as an adult author. She just didn't want adults familiar with her children's work to assume anything in particular about her adult output.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

She also says it's an homage to Ursula K. Le Guin, who once joked that UK could stand for Ulysses Kingfisher. So, sure, the line seems to exist between, like elementary school age fiction and what would be considered, like, ya. She does have a few Kingfisher books under. On her website under the heading, like books for kids because they're like, YA novella.

[Craig]

Sure. Okay.

[Andrew]

Things, yeah, like it said, as Ursula Vernon, she's written the Hamster Princess series, the Dragon Breath series, many one offs. And then as T. Kingfisher, the adult book she's written include Nettle and Bone, which was also. Which also, I think won a bunch of awards and was pretty notable. What moves the dead sword heart Jackalope Wives and Other Stories and many others she has. The. The genre she likes to work in, as defined by her website, are horror, fantasy and romance. These are three separate buckets of books.

[Craig]

Not all.

[Andrew]

There's overlap between. Yeah, right, okay.

[Craig]

Because that's when you make adult books.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

You combine all those genres together.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So that's. That's mainly what I've. What I've got about her. She just, like. She likes to write a lot of different genres. She likes to write for different audiences, and she seems to be pretty well established and successful at all, all of it.

[Craig]

So, yeah, she does. Most of her interviews strike me as she's, like, usually ready with a quip. And in a couple interviews, she, you know, people ask her about including humor in some of her darker stories, and she's like, that's just my brain, man. And, like, most people like it, but I did. There was one in that Locust Mag interview that I liked, Andrew, where she gets a call about from an agent based on her, you know, her sketches and her drawings online. And they say, you know, do you have representation? And she says, yes, I pay taxes and don't live in D.C. okay. She's pretty clever.

[Andrew]

Yeah. That's funny.

[Craig]

But she said that this book came out of, you know, she's written other fairy tale stories. She's written an adaptation of Bluebeard, of the Snow Queen, of Beauty and the Beast and more. And she was working on the Hamster Princess and, like, was working on a Sleeping Beauty thing and then wanted to go a different way. What she says in the acknowledgment section of this novel is that she was like, hey, what if Sleeping Beauty was the villain? Like, what if the thing. What if the person, the princess that was sleeping and was contained. Was contained for a reason?

[Andrew]

Yes. What? In a Grim Dark Magazine interview, she said this in a slightly different way. What if she says. I'd say it's a retelling of Sleeping Beauty where the heroine has a very, very good reason to keep her locked away in the tower.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Also, the heroine is a were toad.

[Craig]

She said, yeah, we'll talk about. We'll talk about toadling and how. How.

[Andrew]

I don't think that I don't have a comprehensive summary of the original fairy tale in my head. There's a lot of.

[Craig]

There's a lot of different.

[Andrew]

There's a lot of. There's a lot of messed up stuff in there. But I don't think a were toad enters into the equation anywhere that I.

[Craig]

Know I Don't think so. Should we quickly. Do you want to quickly do. We've never done a Sleeping Beauty. I don't think.

[Andrew]

I don't think so. Well, we've done. We've done Little Mermaid. We did. What is with spinning silver?

[Craig]

Not. That's like sort of Rumpelstiltskiny, I think.

[Andrew]

Yeah, maybe.

[Craig]

And we did Beauty and the Beast and we've definitely it in terms of.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we've. I, I bet there's one or two more in there somewhere. But yeah, it's. We have not done a Sleeping Beauty to my knowledge. So this is a fairy tale that goes back to at least the mid-1300s. The first known version appeared in anonymous. Anonymously written chivalric romance called Persiforce.

[Craig]

It was French. It was perciferous.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'm just gonna let you. I'm just gonna let you give me the fren. This. This is like an eight volume work. It's huge. It also has a lot of Arthurian legend stuff in it. Probably just like a big clearinghouse for like tales. Oral. Oral things. And like. Yeah, just like folk tales.

[Craig]

Like a dentist orally.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Orally told. Things like Homerically, I mean, and then also just like bits and pieces that were floating around.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

The closest. So the clearest lineage for the modern version that I can work out is it goes from an Italian work called Sun, Moon and Talia, which is published in like the 1630s. And then Charles Perrault adapts his version in 1697 and most modern versions come from that. So the Brothers Grimm adapt a, quote, orally transmitted version of the Perot version in their 1812 book, Children's and Household Tales. I'm quoting Wikipedia. Or orally transmitted. I don't know what they are. I don't know what that means. Like somebody told. Did they listen to a. An hour long book podcast about someone who read the. The Perot version.

[Craig]

Possible. Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then Disney's 1959 animated film calls back to the Perot version, not the, not the Grimm version.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

According to an old post on the Internet archive from the Walt Disney Family Museum, apparently they were considering adapting the story as far back as the late 30s. The movie didn't actually come out till 1959, but it was something that was bouncing around for a while. And a lot of those classic Disney movies are like, when Disney animation first became big. A lot of them are like, let's take an idea for a fairy tale and use nothing about the plot and just run with it.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Because it's A super different. It's a super different story. The original involves double crossing and sexual assault and attempted cannibalism and people almost being burned alive for their perceived crimes. So, like, it's not. It's not what you would think of as a Disney movie.

[Craig]

Usually there is a princess who has been cursed by a scorned fairy lady of some kind who says, okay, you're gonna prick your finger on a spinning wheel or on a hedge or something, and when that happens to you, you're gonna die. And then the other fairies are like, no, no, no, don't make her. Don't let her die. Just let her fall asleep forever. And then that's what happens. And then a prince wakes her up. There. Maybe there's a true love's kiss. Some versions that I was reading about, like, they do, like, a second half that's like. And then here's what happened after she woke up. And it's always bad.

[Andrew]

Yeah. No, the original fairy tale, she's asleep, and then a king comes and impregnates her while she's asleep.

[Craig]

Also does. Yes, unfortunately. Yes.

[Andrew]

And then, like, one of the kids, like, sucks the splinter out of her finger, which wakes her up. Which wakes her up. And then the king just, like, comes by and says hi sometimes. And then the queen finds out about her and is not happy. The version. Okay, so the queen finds out that the king made these kids, and then she orders the cook to cook the kids, and then she's going to serve them to the king, but the cook makes lambs instead. But the whole time he's sitting there and he eats two whole lambs, which seems like a lot of. I mean. I mean, I guess I haven't eaten a lamb. I don't know how much meat it is. It seems like a lot to just sit and eat, too.

[Craig]

Oh, lamb.

[Andrew]

Jeez. But apparently the queen is just sitting there. Like, talk, like, covertly referencing the fact that he's eating his kids the whole time when he's actually sitting there and eating lambs.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

But then in the end, everybody ends up okay. I mean, I don't know if the queen does, but, like, the cook is celebrated as a hero. Talia's fine.

[Craig]

Some of our parents were worried about the Simpsons or South Park. Like, come on.

[Andrew]

Should have been more worried about South Park.

[Craig]

Well, I wasn't allowed to watch south park for many years, but I watched it anyway. And then I stopped because I needed to stop our modern grim brothers and Trey. Yeah. So I don't know. I went into this Like, I'm not very familiar with the Disney film. So, like, that's not like hanging over my head as I read it. It's mostly kind of, you know, building block of the fairy tale that I could bring to my read. And it does just kind of go in other directions. The thing I really liked, and this will probably last thing I say before the break, the thing I really liked from that Grimdark interview she gave was the Grimdark magazine dot com. She likes working with fairy tales and folklore because, quote, I am great at writing scenes and terrible at writing plots. She's, you know, you have an outline of the story already that she can work from. And she says there's also a built in resonance with a lot of fairy tales. Most of us know these from childhood and they're snugged right up against the bone. So if she does something that works, it's already kind of tapping into something you're familiar with, which is true. We've talked about that with adaptation in the past, which gives her stuff to play with without having to like, you know, come up with a whole thing.

[Andrew]

Sure, yeah. The only image I can even summer, like summon to mind from the Disney movie is of Maleficent, actually.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

She's without. Without doing any research. Just off the top of my head, I assume is a queer icon or something. Like, for some reason, I think so. She has that look about her.

[Craig]

Well, there. And that. That movie, apparently I was reading was a bit of a bomb in its day.

[Andrew]

Oh, sure, yes. I thought you were talking about the Angelina Jolie film.

[Craig]

No, I have no idea, actually. But the original animated one, because they'd already done a few princesses, it was like a little late for that at that point. They weren't sure what. How to do it differently, but it's, you know, like everything. You reclaim it probably. Possibly for reasons you just enumerated. Who knows?

[Andrew]

The movie Maleficent did amazing, actually. So the movie Maleficent made $758.5 million.

[Craig]

Yeah. So good for you, Angelina. With that note, let's take a quick break and then I'll tell you about the thorns and the hedges and the, the fairies and the tales.

[Andrew]

Calling all over doobies. We're conducting an audience survey at Gum FM Overdue, and we want to hear from you so we can keep making content you love. You know this, we know this. There are ads on our podcast. You're hearing one now. You're going to hear a couple more later. We want to improve that experience for you. But in Order to do this, we need to know a little bit more about you. We're just trying to get to know you. Just breaking the ice, you know. What kind of, what kind of products do you like? The survey is a quick, easy and free way to support this podcast. It'll take you two minutes and you'll be helping us out so much by doing it. Just aside from downloading and listening and sending your good vibes, this is one of the best ways that you can directly support our show and the stuff that we're doing. So, yeah, go to GUM FM Overdue to fill out our audience survey. That's GUM fm. O V E R D U E. And thank you very much, please. And thank you.

[Craig]

I say to you, please mind your p's and Q's. Andrew. Andrew. We hear a lot from interesting people on this podcast or we hear from a lot of them. Yeah. And I am always hungry for more. And what if I told you that you could learn from the world's best all in one place? You can with Masterclass, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Whoa. I would be thrilled to hear that.

[Craig]

Let me tell you more. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. And it's the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best for just $10 a month. An annual membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. We think that our listeners might enjoy learning how to draw on emotional memories and real life events to write great fiction with Amy Tan. Or maybe you're just looking to pick up, you know, a new hobby in the new year. You could learn chess from Gary freaking Kasparov. Just go, he's the chess man. I don't know if he invented it.

[Andrew]

Can we trust him, though? Like, he doesn't. He's not going to teach you to be so good that you beat him because then you'd be out of it. Be out of a gig.

[Craig]

Fair enough, fair enough. But you could probably beat your partner or your roommates. So, like, you know, take, take it up with Gary. I suppose. As we've said before, we also have a good friend who greatly enjoyed learning from R.L. stein about where great ideas come from. And you know how we feel about R.L. stein's ideas. They're great. Plus, every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. So right now our listeners get an additional 15 off any annual membership at MasterClass.com overdue. That's 15% off at MasterClass.com/ overdue. MasterClass.com/ overdue.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

My keyboard names. Because I'm not using a pen to make a website.

[Andrew]

You're nom de bord. Squarespace has beautiful templates, easy to use, drag and drop tools, 24. 7 customer support, all kinds of things that make making a website easy. You don't have to know any code. You don't have to, I don't know, muck around in HTML. Get your, get your hands all covered in like parentheses.

[Craig]

We use Squarespace and I have taught other people to use our website and I don't know how to make a website. Like that's how.

[Andrew]

You don't even know. You don't even know how to spell HTML. Oh, here's some other things we like about Squarespace.

[Craig]

Rocked me actually.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Where to begin? Andrew?

[Andrew]

Is anybody asleep in this book? There is someone's asleep, right?

[Craig]

Yeah, there is someone who sleeps. Can I just read a Tweet to you from 2018. Sure. Okay. Now this is.

[Andrew]

This is primo untainted tweets from the before times.

[Craig]

Yes. And again, this is a cheeky joking tweet and it is what was meant to be such and it is relevant to this podcast. It's from Sadiq. Why. Why do bash, quote unquote, deadbeat dads for not being there for their kids. But we never question if the child has bad vibes or if they're just unpleasant to be around. The.

[Andrew]

How does that. How does that get. How does that get us into our story today?

[Craig]

The sleeper in in Thornhedge is a princess of sorts who, as we learn later late in the novel. I don't think it's a huge spoiler to, you know, going back to what Kingfisher said. Like, I was interested to write this because I was like, what if the princess was the villain? So it is revealed later in the novel that she was put to sleep because she was like, not feral, but like clearly evil in a demonic way and needed to be like, contained less. She just destroy the kingdom that she was in.

[Andrew]

And they don't, like, they don't got the death penalty in this kingdom or what. They don't got capital punishment. You just put the. Put you to sleep forever.

[Craig]

People don't really. We'll get into the details of why she's put to sleep, but then people have the opportunity to do that and decide not to because she's just a little kid.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And they have, you know, feelings about that. But she does have bad vibes.

[Andrew]

As a parent, I know one day I'm going to want to kick a kid's butt for something and I'm not going to be allowed to, like, societally, it's frown.

[Craig]

It's good that you're not allowed to.

[Andrew]

It's good that I'm not allowed to, but it's not going to make me not kind of want to.

[Craig]

Well, I mean, this. This little stinker, you know, tortured animals and, and probably killed some people and definitely will continue to do so. So they did need to do something.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

She had worse than bad vibes. But that is one of the first thoughts I was reading this novel.

[Andrew]

It's just this kid sucks.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And she needed to be put to sleep.

[Craig]

We don't spend a lot of time with Fayette, the, the princess who is sleeping because the. The main character, the protagonist of the novel as we learn her name to be Toadling. She is a fairy creature of sorts who has some water magic. She can go into her toad skin form and turn into a toad.

[Andrew]

Okay. That's what I would expect from toad skin form.

[Craig]

Yes. And she is like living outside of this decrepit tower slash castle thing that has been surrounded by a big nasty bramble wall. Ish. Contraption that she's created. And that's kind of.

[Andrew]

That's better than a moat. Moat's gonna give you water damage. Moats gonna give you some settling stuff.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Like, good to do the thorns instead of the moat. I approve.

[Craig]

Her water is. Her magic is based on water. Her water is based on magic. But she did to like to create this. The sleeping spell that she ultimately casts in her backstory that we learned about. She did like use all the water in the region to do so, including like drawing up this big bramble. So even if she wanted to put a moat there, she couldn't have because she converted all the water into magic.

[Andrew]

Okay. So this is. This is an environmental compact catastrophe.

[Craig]

It is a bit.

[Andrew]

This is like. This is like she started an AI server farm in a way in the kingdom. Okay.

[Craig]

Thinking about things that need to be contained. And when she gets to that point, just. It's also like she just wants to keep people away from the tower entirely. Like person is too dangerous. We don't know all of this at the beginning of the story. We know that she lives outside this tower. I'll give you the description of toadling that we get. The fairy was the greenish tan color of mushroom stems and her skin bruised blue black like mushroom flesh. She had a broad frog like face and water weed hair. She was neither beautiful nor made of malice, as many of the fair folk are said to be. Mostly she was fretful and often tired.

[Andrew]

Same, same. Yeah, yeah. I was thrown by the description of the heroine as a were toad because that implies to me a regular person who during times that they're not in their own control, they become a toad for years. And this sounds like just kind of a. Kind of a, like toad adjacent fairy creature.

[Craig]

Yes. Ish. We learn that I'm probably gonna wind up telling a lot of this novella out of order, which is fine. It's not very long. I think the way it unspools is pretty satisfying. You get her backstory kind of interlaced with a very brief kind of moving forward story of this knight coming and finding her. We'll talk about him in a bit. But you learn that she was a changeling.

[Andrew]

Like. Like Odo from Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

[Craig]

I don't think that's What? No, I think it's different. I think it's changeling in the like. This is an old folk tale thing where like your baby is born and before you have a chance to like make sure it knows that it's your baby, like fairies creep in and swap out your baby for a little demon baby instead and take your child away to the fae either to eat it or in this case raise it as one of their own, like Mowgli style.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

And so she is this interesting kind of like the way that the. The story tells it is that she was taken before she could ever have any like, human food. Like, including like milk from her. From her mother after she was born. So the magic of the. The green teeth. Who are the water fairies. Swamp fairies can like kind of really get to her her as it says that she is like her flesh is malleable to magic or something like that.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

So like the logic of the story is that because she had not like partaken of the human world yet, she could become kind of part fairy in her way.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

So that's. Sure. That's why she has magic. That is why she can become a toad. Like they teach her how to become a toad. That's why she's basically a fairy, even though she's not really.

[Andrew]

Okay. She uses all the water. She made a magic thorny hedge.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

That protects a tower.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Somebody's sleeping in.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

How long has this been going on when the book starts?

[Craig]

Hundreds of years. Like the opening. That's a long time opening of the story. Like as you're reading it is that like she's talking to some birds and they're like, yeah, there are some humans probably going to come by at some point, but many of them are also dead. We don't know much. We're birds. And totaling is like, this is frustrating. I'd hate talking about the fact that.

[Andrew]

This kid sucks and did a bunch of sucky things would have passed out of living memory for everybody.

[Craig]

Other than that is the thing that she is concerned about is that now that there are it. This is one of those riffs on a fairy tale that is sort of like, what if the fairy tale existed in the world in a second half of Don Quixote? Kind of way to be cheeky. Where the birds are telling her that these people that might be coming know about the story of the tower and that there's a princess in there.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And that she's trapped there by a fairy or something. And so Toadling is now concerned that there is a story out in the world that she can't fight a story. She's just this little kind of like, half fairy, half human kind of runt tasked with maintaining this thing that no one else is helping her with. And if anybody. If any knight or anybody shows up to actually, like, act on the tail, they're gonna think that she's this evil creature, and then they're gonna go in and, like, save the princess, who's then gonna be a murderous monster.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So this is this really what you're saying to me is this is a media environment problem. They live in a bad media environment.

[Craig]

That's actually exactly what it is.

[Andrew]

There's a lot of misinformation around there about what's happening in this tower.

[Craig]

Correct. Yes. And because she is a marginalized person, she cannot actually, like, affect it the way that she should be. Okay, dang analysis, quickly. The things I want to shout out in the early section that are kind of neat before we get our second character, Halim, is the way that she, like, hears or witnesses the world that passes her by, where she is, like, she's kind of ageless, so she doesn't perceive time the same way and is just like, oh. And then there were people walking by with bird masks. And then there were people who walked by screaming as they hit themselves with stuff. And then there are birds who tell them that, like, there haven't been people around for a while because of a plague of some kind. The fairy curled into a ball and wept for the dead. And yet a tiny, nagging voice said, perhaps the story of the tower will die with them. If it was a terrible thing to be glad that whole cities had died, it must be true, thought the fairy bleakly. I must not have a soul to be relieved, even a little. And she cried even more until the ground was black with tears. So she's like, maybe a little plague to make sure that no one frees this princess.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And she feels bad about that. Sure. That that little passage there, I think, is like, a good representation of the writing style. It has this fairy talesque quality that's like. It's never. The prose is never too complicated, but it also has this kind of, like, every sentence has a little bit of gray area around it where you feel like you're in a fairy tale. Even though she's writing the characters to have much more rich, like, emotional depth. So, you know, after hundreds of years, this guy Halim arrives. He is a. The youngest in a Muslim royal family. He is a knight who has no like, real purpose. Okay. He says he's triangulated this tower from stories. Like, she sees him and is like, how can I drive him away? I don't have much magic. She can do elf knots in his hair, which just makes his hair all knotted up and annoying.

[Andrew]

I mean, that would be annoying that I wouldn't like that.

[Craig]

Yeah. And she's like, well, maybe I can do that. Because like, what we don't know at this point in the story is that much of her magic is tied up in maintaining the sleep. So she can only do like little stuff.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And it sounds like there's not. I don't know if there's that much water around because she needs to turn the water into magic.

[Craig]

Yes. Okay. And so she like starts to do his hair bad while he's asleep. And then he like wakes up and is like, hey, what's going on here? And they instantly start this relationship where they're both kind of, you know, she was raised in a loving family of child devouring swamp fairies. Uh huh.

[Andrew]

That's a lot of kind of words that seem like they're working at cross purposes.

[Craig]

Yeah. There's a lot of inherent tensions in these communities. Right. And he, as I said, is like the youngest in his family. He doesn't have a real like, kind of like lane. At one point he says that his mom sent him to like get extra education. Maybe he would be like an Islamic legal scholar. But now he's just a guy who's like invested in stories that he's been reading and he's found this story about a princess in a tower and he's looked through the land records and like found that this is where it probably is based on all the geographic references and the different versions of the story.

[Andrew]

Listen, I went through the Philadelphia property. Yeah, Property website. You can find out a lot of stuff on that website. I bet I could.

[Craig]

If.

[Andrew]

If there is a. An enchanted child sleeping in a row house somewhere in the city of Philadelphia, I bet we could figure it out.

[Craig]

I bet we could, you know, just call the department of Information, find out where the Zoltar machine is. Like in the movie Big. That's how it works. Better than Google now. And he's the one who reveals to her that it's been like 200 years since the plague and she's kind of surprised at how long this story is persisting.

[Andrew]

Yeah, because she. You said her perception of time is kind of goosey. Yes.

[Craig]

Well, she's on her own. She doesn't do anything. And she also talks about when she becomes a toad. She takes on toad thoughts and just, like, doesn't think about stuff other than, like, eaten worms and bugs and racing parts. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Holding on to power stars for Mario.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Kind of hosting parties. Mario's parties.

[Craig]

Huh. So, what, Solving puzzles.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

On an adventure, maybe.

[Andrew]

Different. Different things that toads do. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But, I mean, that's Captain, too. That's a. Oh, sorry.

[Craig]

You're right. No, my bad. Excuse me.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And she's worried that he's going to, like, go in there and not, like. And, like, go. Just want to free the princess. He is oddly nice. Like, that's kind of his whole deal. He always apologizes if he curses to the point where he basically treats the words I'm sorry as being part of all of his curses. Because he's like. He just has a guilt complex. He loves his mom so much, he never wants to send anybody.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Just a sweet boy. Halim is. We stand Haleem, I think. And he's like, hey, are you the prick? Like, is something wrong with you? Are you cursed? Should I help you? She's like, no, that's weird. Don't know. That doesn't make any sense. And he's like, okay, like, I'm going to leave and go look up some stuff to break curses with. I'll come back. Because if you don't want to be here, you shouldn't have to be here. And if there's a curse involved, I'll break it. See you later. And this is when we get some of the stuff about toad thoughts, because she's, like. Tries to spend time in toad mode, and she, like, usually only thinks about bugs. And now she's thinking about this guy that came by and what it would be like to leave the tower and all sorts of stuff.

[Andrew]

I would like. I think hashtag toadthoughts would be an interesting feed to scroll through. Yeah, just putting that out there.

[Craig]

Yeah. I just want to hashtag toad mode. I want to get toad.

[Andrew]

I do do some of my best thinking when I'm a toad.

[Craig]

And so once he leaves and she's pondering her whole situation is when we start to get in the structure of the novella, her backstory. So we hear about her being exchanged at birth. We hear about the green teeth and how they raised her and how they made her magical. And then at the age of 15, the rabbit goddess is like, hey, I need to take you with me because you got to help your dad's house. She does not know that she was ever human at this Point.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

They sweep her away to, like, a fairy magic boot camp. And Master Gourami is like, hey, you know you're not a fairy, right? You know, you're human. And she's like, no. No one ever told me that. That stinks. I hate that. Because she loves all the green teeth are, like, very sweet to her. They love her. She feels like part of a community there.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right? Yeah.

[Craig]

She also learns about. And this is, I think, the thing that King Vernon has said about her writing as Kingfisher for these fairy tales is that she, like, doesn't change. And this she's inventing a little bit. But, like, she invests emotional truth in, like, typically when you do a fairy tale, you're just like, well, and then that kid got turned into stone. And then, like, people kept watching, walking. And this is like, she digs into what it would be like for this fish girl to randomly be taken to fairy court, where she's like, oh, wait, what is clothes? What is cooked food? What do you mean? You sleep in a bed alone and not in a big pile of fairies underwater. And this is also where she gets this. Like, she learns that her notion of beauty was wrong. And I kind of like what Kingfisher is doing here because it's not just. It's not just, like, the. The maybe horror trope where, like, creepy creatures find creepy stuff. Pretty. Like, it's not that, right?

[Andrew]

It's not a Nightmare Before Christmas?

[Craig]

No, it's. No, it's not Nightmare Before Christmas. It's like. It's a different wrinkle where they're like, I'm trying to.

[Andrew]

What is. Maybe it's like an aal. Monsters thing. I'm trying to remember, like, the creative property that had, like, odorant for monsters. That might be monsters, actually.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

Monsters, Inc. Has odorant. Yeah.

[Craig]

But in. In the book, in her world, the eldest, this was the oldest. Green teeth was the most beautiful, swollen with power and secrets and the deaths of her enemies. Duck White was beautiful with her patience and her quick, many jointed fingers. Reed bones, who had enormously long, thin arms and who could swim side to side like an eel, swifter than a kelpie could run, was beautiful. So, like, all of these versions of beauty that are, like, tied to how these creatures act and, like, what they're capable of, and all the other fairies are like, ew, swamp things. I need it. But she learns that she has to go back for the christening of the. Of the baby that was swapped in her place because the mortal world, it's only been like a week and it's been 15 years in the fairy world. So she's gonna go back in a few fairy years and be kind of a fairy godmother who shows up to the christening. And they are gonna have give her a quote unquote gift to give the baby. That's supposed to like, you know, the rabbit goddess says like something about like not wanting there to be harm in the world. So like, this is why I'm having you do this.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

She's like, okay. And they teach her a spell that is supposed to be, this is your gift that you will do no harm to those around you. And she's rehearsed the scene. She goes, she realizes that these are her parents. Her mother was not supposed to be there. Her mother was supposed to be dead by now. And it throws her off. And she says it wrong. She says, I've come to stop her doing harm. And the spell unlocks. And so now it is a different spell where basically I guess we're led to interpret that the magic has made it so that she has to be there to keep her from like her magical alone can keep her from doing any harm. Okay, whatever that means. Like you don't know what that means.

[Andrew]

And we don't, like we don't know.

[Craig]

What it was supposed to be. Really.

[Andrew]

Well, and we don't. We. Is there a sense that there's some kind of causal relationship here by saying I need to prevent from doing harm that you've created maybe a child who wants to do harm?

[Craig]

Maybe.

[Andrew]

I don't know. Okay, so that's, that's left a little ambiguous.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's not like a looper situation. It's not like some, you know, some self fulfilling thing. But it is. The fairies know that this is an evil creature that needs something done to it. But they've been a little vague in their instructions to toadling.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

So then toadling just like lives a few years with these people as a. She like heals the mom, lives a few years as a fairy servant, basically tries to keep the girl in check. The girl starts torturing animals. And then some people get, start getting found dead. And then when she animates the dead nurse with her magic, okay. The king and queen are like, listen, totaling, you have to do something, Please do anything.

[Andrew]

It seems like, seems like that's a, that's a badly behaved child.

[Craig]

Yeah. And, and the, the child is like, does not believe that she's doing anything wrong. She's like gleeful about it. Right? You know, and it's not this kind of, like, misguided. I can't imagine how I did this. Like, I'm just a baby. It's like, no. She's a sadist of some kind. So she uses all the water in the world to knock her out, and they brick her up because no one could bring themselves to kill her. And then the kingdom falls apart and everybody leaves. And then we're brought to the beginning of the story, and she's telling Halim her whole background. And Halim's goal at this point is to get hurt, is to get totaling. To leave is just like, get her to leave this life behind, this. Whatever it takes.

[Andrew]

Okay?

[Craig]

He's not sure if he can bring himself to kill the princess if it's real. He's also. He believes totaling, but he's also, like, in the back of his head, like, is this some other magic? Like, making her tell the story this way? You know? So they finally go in there at this point, they're very, very good friends. It's very sweet. And as she is you, she, briefly, on instinct, uses her magic to help Halim knock down the brick wall, which weakens the magic that is holding Fayette imprisoned. Oh, Fayette wakes up. They have a brief, violent encounter with her, and then she falls over a allege because totaling went toad mode and falls to her death.

[Andrew]

Oh, that was fast.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's very quick. It's okay. You know, I was going to ask.

[Andrew]

Like, if she realized that she had been spelled for hundreds.

[Craig]

She did. Yeah.

[Andrew]

It sounds like she doesn't have a lot of time to unpack that.

[Craig]

No, she really doesn't. The biggest thing you get partially earlier in the novel, Totaling, is like, yo, I gotta put her to sleep now before she gets more powerful. The only reason that any of my spells work on her is that she's 6, so I gotta put her to sleep now. She wakes up, and it's clear that she could get very powerful very quick. She says something of like, I could have brought them in. I could have called them. It's like, maybe intimating that she has a connection to darker spirits on the other side. Purportedly, one of her parents is like, an evil elf or something.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Can't protect yourself from a tumble, though, can you?

[Craig]

No, you cannot. Yeah. So, you know, they save the day. Halim is like, you could leave if you wanted. While Halim is asleep, the rabbit goddess shows up, and it's like, hey, great job. You were definitely supposed to kill her. The other spell was gonna do that. So thanks finally for doing that.

[Andrew]

Uh huh. Sorry about the, the. The 200 years, the whole life that you led. You know, it seems like maybe you weren't keeping track of it that close, so maybe you don't mind that much. But I just, you know, I want to present this formal letter of apology. Well, from the fairy folk to you. There's not really this whole mix up the, the thing.

[Craig]

This is one of those like, I got used moments that is kind of an interesting moral wrinkle where totaling is like, but you. Okay, so if you want her to die, like, why didn't you just kill her?

[Andrew]

Yeah, right.

[Craig]

And the rabbit is like, well, if I did that, all the elves would get mad at me. She stole your birthright. So if you did it, we could kind of like say it was your fault. And Toadling is very upset about that and goes back to the Green Teeth, who all love her hundreds upon hundreds of years later. Which is kind of the. There's a. For all of the nastiness in this book that is talked about through Fayette and the loneliness that Toadling experiences over the course of the novel, I don't remember. I think it might be the grim, dark interview that talks about Kingfisher's work sometimes being like cozy horror or like comfy dark fiction. And I do think the. The love from the Green teeth and how that is depicted, even though they are, you know, child snatching carnivores, is what underpins the book for me. And she's with them and she's like, hey, while I was out there, I did. There was this guy, like, she's trying to sleep. She's like, oh, this guy. I can't. I never say goodbye to him. And so they're like, well, go say goodbye to him. It's important. We'll be here. We're fairies. We live forever. Come back. And the book ends with her like, walking towards his campfire again while he's asleep. And that's it. Okay, so it's clear she's not like gonna go off into the real world with him, even though he's like kind of throughout the book being like, the world has changed and like, that's kind of why I'm here in the first place. And so maybe like, the world could change you in a way that would be beneficial. Who knows? And she's like, ah, but no, we love Halim. He's just a sweet little boy who shows up to solve a mystery. He says he loves a mystery and, you know, he loves his mama and he likes Toadling. They're friends.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean, it's lucky that he thought that her mystery was. Was it is.

[Craig]

He put in a lot of work exploring.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Not luck on his side, but I guess luck on his side.

[Andrew]

It's lucky for both of them that they get to know each other in this way.

[Craig]

So. Yeah, I don't know. It's a sweet little novel that has to do with a princess trying to kill everybody. But. And I think the tone of it, which I hope a couple of the passages I've read have conveyed, like, really is I think what worked for me the most. Just this. I felt like I was being told a bedtime story through most of the novel, even in the darkest bits. And that is exactly, like, what she's trying to accomplish with this. Like, okay, this. Whose story will win the day? Is it the story that society has been telling about what happened to her? Or will this guy right in front of her believe her story? Because she does the. The whole novel. Like, we are just hearing it from her, and then ultimately it tells you that she told it to Halim, and so he makes a choice to believe her. And, like, that's important.

[Andrew]

No, there's definitely something about that. Like the passage that you read where she, like, cried till the ground was black with tears or whatever. That's very, like. Yeah, that's. That's very, like, dreamy. Fairy taley.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

It's not gonna say it's magical realism.

[Craig]

No, it's not.

[Andrew]

Tears don't. Don't make a river and, like, destroy the banana trade in, like, a South American country or something like that.

[Craig]

No, it's just.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's just like. It's very. It's evocative and a little, like, dreamy storytelling. Yes.

[Craig]

And because it's not trying to convey, like, really intricate plotting, it doesn't get. When it's being kind of artful or poetic, it doesn't feel like it's obscuring action ever. Which kind of lets you lean into the vibe of it a bit, where it's. Instead of the, like, quit being decorative with your. With your, you know, fantasy authors at their worst, who are, like, overly decorating scenes to make them feel lived in with, you know, depictions of food. Let's say she's just, like, lovingly portraying these characters. And because there's only so much action to accomplish anyway, you just get to kind of live in that, which is nice. So, yeah, that's the. That's the novel. I think people would. Would like it. I Don't. Most people would probably like this book. I think it's.

[Andrew]

That's good. That's a. That's. That's a good recommendation, I think.

[Craig]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Andrew]

Is there a. Is there any fairy tale? I don't know. What's a fairy tale that you like to get in there and mess around with? You know, I was fun. Un. Unbidden to my brain came a very stupid idea that the modern Internet would. Would create where you have the princess and the pea.

[Craig]

Oh yeah.

[Andrew]

But when she realizes that there's been like a pee underneath that mattress, she gets really mad at the people at the castle for doing a microaggression and she takes them to court. And it's kind of a parable about wokeness run amok. Because fairy tales are always supposed to have like a little lesson or something in them.

[Craig]

Most of them do. I don't really know what the lesson of Hansel and Gretel is. I feel like there are versions of Hansel and Gretel that we could dig into as a society. Yeah.

[Andrew]

The lesson of Hansel and Gretel is like, keep your head on a swivel. If a wish has a candy house, it's probably too good to be true.

[Craig]

What if the Hansel and Gretel are like, you know, over aggressive gentrifiers and like what if this, like it's just like the last. It's like the house from up there's like the last standing witch candy house and these little jerks are moving in on it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, there's a whole. There's a whole neighborhood of them or there was once.

[Craig]

So. Yeah, that's. Welcome to Woke Fairy Tales, our new series.

[Andrew]

These are great ideas.

[Craig]

Pitch us the listeners.

[Andrew]

Gotta get that Sleeping Beauty. Woke is what I'm saying.

[Craig]

Listeners. Pitch us your busted fairy tales. Overdue podmail.com Tell us how funny you thought Andrew was just now overdo pod on Instagram and blue sky.

[Andrew]

Just let me imagine.

[Craig]

Please do it. Our theme song is composed by Nick Laurengis. Andrew, if folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is our Internet website. Don't you know up there we have a list of the books that we have read and are going to read. Craig, we've got the January schedule ready. You want to give her a. Give her a read real quick.

[Craig]

Give her a little read real quick.

[Andrew]

Read as a treat.

[Craig]

Yeah, but Thornhedge by T. Kingfisher kicked off the month. I don't know if you know that and then followed next week by before the Coffee Gets Cold by Toshikazu Kawaguchi. Chicken Soup for the Soul. We all need it.

[Andrew]

Do we?

[Craig]

We will. On January 20, chicken soup for the Soul by Jack Canfield, Mark Victor Hansen and Amy Newmark. And then following that up with the Jungle by Upton Sinclair. It's a jungle out there.

[Andrew]

Sure is rollicking. Good time about exploring the Amazon.

[Craig]

It's like a Tarzan follow up, I think, right?

[Andrew]

Probably.

[Craig]

Probably. Andrew. Also on the feed this week is like a. There's an update to something. What did we update? What do people need to go check out?

[Andrew]

Yeah, sure. We've instituted some long promised updates on our Patreon page. Just a few. I mean most many things are the same. There are a few tweaks to like some bonus episode stuff that we're doing. There's a, a new experiment thing that we're kind of playing with where we did go to see the movie Sonic the Hedgehog three and then talked about it for an hour and a half. Not in a restaurant. We did think about seeing Sonic 3 and then going to eat chili dogs, but we figured we would just give you the normal auditory experience instead of the listening to it.

[Craig]

But that is exclusive to patrons.

[Andrew]

It's exclusive to patrons. Sonic the hedgehog 3. It's not a book yet.

[Craig]

That's how we do it.

[Andrew]

I don't know if there's a novelization of that, but also, you know, some more streaming stuff that we're doing. We are starting a monthly newsletter called Dusty Bookshelves.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Real ones will know what that's a reference to.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Where I did talk about. We're going to talk about like research rabbit holes we didn't get to go into on the show and other just like hobbyist odds and ends, I think. Parenting stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Just, you know, newsletter things. It's going to lead with book and then. And then whatever is the second part of it is the planned format. But this, this time I talked about the. The Wild World of the wizard of Oz inspired by our Wicked episode we did last month. There. There are 40 of those books and they are. It's wild to read information about them.

[Craig]

So if you're interested in. In joining the Patreon, we do have an update pod going live on the feed this week as well. So you can go listen to that. Not. It's not as long as this pod is. Definitely not as long as the sonic the hedgehog 3 pod. So like it should be over pretty quick. Just go check it out.

[Andrew]

And yeah. Patreon.com overdue pod if you can support us financially. We appreciate that so much. It pays for equipment and child care and books and all the many of the different things that we need logistically to just make the show happen. If you can't support us, that's. That's. We understand. That's fine. You can also, you know, you also support us when you listen to the show and I don't know, use coupon codes in the. From the ad break.

[Craig]

Leave reviews on podcast services. Go do it. Good ones, please.

[Andrew]

Speaking of the ad. Speaking of the ad breaks. Come over, come over, come over. I got a secret. We gotta ad free feed going up on Patreon too. So that sounds. That sounds like something you'd be interested in. Patreon.com overdue pod Yep.

[Craig]

So again, Andrew, next week is reading before the coffee gets cold. Get reading, Andrew, before the coffee gets cold.

[Andrew]

I only drink cold brew, so this is. I cannot.

[Craig]

Oh, boy.

[Andrew]

With the people in this book, I actually have questions about what they. I guess they must just not serve cold brew. We'll talk about it more next, okay?

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

All right, everybody, thanks so much for listening. And until we talk to you next time, please try to be happy. That was a headgum podcast.