Ep 699 - Arrival (Stories of Your Life and Others), by Ted Chiang

Summary

Overdue Podcast Episode 699: "Arrival (Stories of Your Life and Others)" by Ted Chiang

Release Date: April 21, 2025
Hosts: Andrew and Craig
Podcast Platform: Headgum

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Introduction

In Episode 699 of Overdue, hosts Andrew and Craig delve into Ted Chiang's acclaimed short story collection, "Stories of Your Life and Others", also known through the eponymous film adaptation "Arrival". The episode offers an insightful exploration of Chiang's narratives, dissecting themes of communication, perception, and the intricate interplay between science and human emotion.

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About Ted Chiang and His Work

Andrew provides a concise biography of Ted Chiang, highlighting his significant contributions to science fiction through meticulously crafted short stories. Born in 1967, Chiang is lauded with multiple prestigious awards, including Nebula, Hugo, and Locus Awards. His background in computer science from Brown University and his professional experience as a technical writer at Microsoft have deeply influenced his storytelling approach, blending technical precision with profound philosophical inquiries.

Andrew [06:03]: "He does have like a Chinese name listed on his Wikipedia page, which I thought was interesting."

Overview of "Stories of Your Life and Others"

Craig introduces the collection, emphasizing its diverse range of stories—from biblical fantasies to speculative science fiction. The podcast episode primarily focuses on dissecting key stories within the collection, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Chiang's thematic concerns and narrative techniques.

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Deep Dive into Selected Stories

1. "Division by Zero" [20:33 – 25:23]

Synopsis:
This story centers on Renee, a gifted mathematician who inadvertently proves the inconsistency of arithmetic, leading to a profound personal and professional crisis. The revelation not only shatters her perception of mathematics but also strains her relationship with her husband, Carl, who has his own history with mental health struggles.

Key Themes:

• The fragility of knowledge systems
• The personal toll of intellectual breakthroughs
• The interplay between mental health and academic pursuits

Craig [20:46]: "What if math made you lose your mind?"

Insights:
Andrew and Craig discuss the story's exploration of how foundational truths can unravel personal identities and relationships. They draw parallels to real-world scenarios where groundbreaking discoveries can have unintended emotional repercussions.

2. "Evolution of Human Science" [29:02 – 31:55]

Synopsis:
Published in Nature magazine, this concise narrative portrays a future where metahumans—humans enhanced through genetic treatments—exist. The story examines societal stratification between regular humans and metahumans, questioning the value and direction of scientific advancement.

Key Themes:

• The ethical implications of human enhancement
• Societal divisions based on intellectual capabilities
• The sustainability of scientific progress

Andrew [31:03]: "This is not just something as clean as this. It's a much more messy story."

Insights:
The hosts reflect on the story's commentary on class warfare and the unintended consequences of technological advancements, resonating with current debates surrounding artificial intelligence and automation.

3. "Understand" [32:10 – 37:06]

Synopsis:
"Understand" follows a man named Greco who undergoes an experimental treatment to enhance his cognitive abilities after being brain dead from an accident. The treatment amplifies his intelligence, enabling him to perceive and manipulate reality in unprecedented ways, ultimately leading him into conflict with another superintelligent individual.

Key Themes:

• The limits of human cognition
• The ethical boundaries of cognitive enhancement
• The isolation that accompanies extraordinary intelligence

Craig [33:13]: "Unlock your mind. Guy's brain goes supersonic with vitamin K."

Insights:
Andrew and Craig discuss the psychological and societal impacts of extreme cognitive enhancement, drawing parallels to contemporary concerns about AI surpassing human intelligence and the isolation that can result from extraordinary capabilities.

4. "Tower of Babylon" [39:12 – 41:31]

Synopsis:
Reimagining the biblical story, this tale narrates the ambitious project to build the Tower of Babel, aiming to reach heaven. The construction of the tower leads to unforeseen consequences, ultimately trapping the builders in a paradoxical existence where their efforts never achieve their intended divine connection.

Key Themes:

• Human ambition and its limits
• The cyclical nature of divine and human endeavors
• The futility and perseverance inherent in monumental projects

Andrew [40:10]: "I always knew that if you build up high enough, you would eventually get to the universe's kill screen."

Insights:
The discussion highlights Chiang's ability to blend mythological narratives with speculative science fiction, examining humanity's relentless pursuit of the divine and the inherent paradoxes in such quests.

5. "Hell is the Absence of God" [42:12 – 45:05]

Synopsis:
This story explores a world where angelic visitations are frequent but come with catastrophic consequences. The narrative follows Neil, whose devout wife dies during an angelic visitation, and Janice, a woman who gains and loses her ability to walk as a result of these celestial interventions.

Key Themes:

• The intersection of faith and adversity
• The randomness of divine intervention
• Coping with loss and belief

Craig [42:19]: "That's what hell is."

Insights:
Andrew and Craig delve into the theological and existential questions posed by Chiang, discussing how unexplained divine actions can lead to personal and societal turmoil without providing clear moral or spiritual guidance.

6. "Vanishing Acts" [19:30 – 28:40]

Synopsis:
"Vanishing Acts" presents a world where magic exists, but it serves as a metaphor for technological advancements and their impact on society. The story follows individuals grappling with the consequences of disappearing acts that symbolize the loss of identity and presence in an increasingly automated world.

Key Themes:

• The loss of identity in a technologically driven society
• The ephemeral nature of existence
• The interplay between magic as metaphor and technological realism

Insights:
The hosts interpret the story as a commentary on the transient nature of human presence in the face of relentless technological progress, drawing parallels to modern concerns about digital identities and virtual existences.

7. "72 Letters" [48:34 – 57:07]

Synopsis:
Set in a steampunk Victorian era, this narrative follows Robert Stratton, a scientist who animates clay golems using essential names rooted in cabalist traditions. As stratton's innovations threaten labor unions and societal norms, he grapples with the ethical implications of his creations and their potential to disrupt human society.

Key Themes:

• The ethical boundaries of creation
• The tension between innovation and tradition
• Class struggle and technological disruption

Craig [54:15]: "They're holding prisoner in a cage. Right."

Insights:
Andrew and Craig explore the story's intricate blend of mysticism and scientific innovation, discussing the societal resistance to change and the moral dilemmas faced by creators whose inventions challenge established norms.

8. "Liking What You See: A Documentary" [47:08 – 55:51]

Synopsis:
This story is formatted as a documentary covering the societal debate over a new technology that can remove an individual's ability to perceive physical attractiveness. It follows a young woman's personal journey as she grapples with the implications of this technology on her self-identity and societal interactions.

Key Themes:

• The nature of beauty and perception
• The ethical implications of altering human cognition
• Individual agency versus societal norms

Insights:
The hosts appreciate Chiang's innovative narrative structure, likening it to modern mockumentaries. They discuss the story's exploration of autonomy and the societal pressures that drive individuals to alter their inherent perceptions.

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Analysis of "Story of Your Life" / "Arrival" [65:32 – 79:04]

Synopsis:
"Story of Your Life" is the centerpiece of the collection, portraying Dr. Louise Banks, a linguist tasked with deciphering the language of the heptapod aliens. As Louise learns their circular written language, she begins to perceive time non-linearly, experiencing past and future events simultaneously. This altered perception allows her to navigate her life with foreknowledge of her daughter's tragic fate and her own marital dissolution.

Key Themes:

• The relationship between language and perception
• Determinism versus free will
• The nature of memory and experience

Craig [74:31]: "The heptapods perceive time in a way that allows them to see all events at once, fundamentally altering their communication and understanding of the universe."

Insights:
Andrew and Craig delve into the profound philosophical questions raised by the story, such as how language shapes cognition and the human experience of time. They discuss the emotional weight of Louise's journey, balancing scientific inquiry with deeply personal narrative elements.

Ted Chiang's Writing and Philosophical Underpinnings

Throughout the episode, the hosts highlight Chiang's meticulous approach to storytelling, where each narrative is anchored in rigorous scientific principles intertwined with existential and ethical dilemmas. They commend his ability to present complex ideas through accessible and emotionally resonant stories, making profound philosophical concepts tangible and relatable.

Andrew [09:19]: "Every story in this book represents an idea that is tormenting poor Ted Chiang until he writes about it."

Key Takeaways:

• Thought Experiments: Chiang uses science fiction as a vessel to dramatize abstract philosophical questions, making them engaging and thought-provoking.

• Human Experience: Despite the speculative settings, the core of Chiang's stories revolves around deeply human emotions and relationships, ensuring accessibility and resonance with readers.

• Narrative Structure: His innovative approaches, such as the mockumentary format and non-linear storytelling, enhance the thematic depth and complexity of his narratives.

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Conclusion

Episode 699 of Overdue offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of Ted Chiang's "Stories of Your Life and Others". Andrew and Craig effectively dissect the intricate layers of Chiang's narratives, presenting listeners with both analytical insights and emotional reflections. The episode underscores Chiang's mastery in blending scientific rigor with profound humanistic themes, making his work a cornerstone in contemporary science fiction literature.

Listeners are encouraged to delve into Chiang's collection to experience firsthand the rich tapestry of ideas and emotions that Andrew and Craig so thoughtfully unpack in this episode.

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Notable Quotes

• Andrew [06:07]: "Each individual story carries more weight because he writes so few of them, making each one deeply impactful."

• Craig [20:46]: "What if math made you lose your mind?"

• Andrew [31:03]: "This is not just clean science fiction; it's a messy exploration of human psyche."

• Craig [33:13]: "Unlock your mind. Guy's brain goes supersonic with vitamin K."

• Andrew [09:19]: "Every story in this book represents an idea that is tormenting poor Ted Chiang until he writes about it."

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Recommendations

Overdue highly recommends reading "Stories of Your Life and Others" to fully appreciate Ted Chiang's nuanced storytelling and profound thematic explorations. Whether you're a seasoned fan or new to Chiang's work, this collection promises a deeply enriching experience that challenges and expands the boundaries of conventional science fiction.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits advertisement segments and focuses solely on the substantive content discussed by the hosts.

Transcript

[Andrew]

This is a headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary. Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

Time for Science But Fiction.

[Andrew]

Ooh. Do you know they got science in their fiction now?

[Craig]

They do. I don't like fictional science.

[Andrew]

I do like fictional science fiction. It's very important.

[Craig]

Very important.

[Andrew]

Yeah. One of the. One of those things has, I don't know, like an audience and funding and stuff. And one of those doesn't right now. Yeah. This is our book podcast where every week one of us reads a book that we've never read before and we tell the other person about it and you the listeners at home. Craig, let's just get right into it. What'd you read this week?

[Craig]

I read Stories of youf Life by Ted Chang. If you've seen this on a bookshelf since 2016 or so, it may be called Arrival. And then the COVID may or may not reference its original title, Stories of youf Life and Others.

[Andrew]

It was originally published as Stories of youf Life and Others.

[Craig]

Yes, but I will. I would love to tell you about this book and this author, Andrew, but I do need to tell our listeners at home that as this comes out, we are a few days away from celebrating episode 700. We're gonna be reading Life and Death Twilight reimagined by somebody named Stephenie Meyer. It's fanfic, but she wrote it, I.

[Andrew]

Guess fanfic for her own fic.

[Craig]

And we're going to stream it or we're going to stream our discussion live on YouTube to celebrate to everybody. To everybody.

[Andrew]

I mean everybody who wants to come.

[Craig]

Yeah, It'll be mandatory for not a Black Mirror episode. But you can join us. Bit ly overdue 700 on Friday, April 25th at 8:30pm Eastern Time. And if you can't make it, you can watch it afterwards. That's fine too. But we love for you to join us.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I just want people when we do this last. We did this for.

[Craig]

We did this for The Percy Jackson 600, I think. Yes. And then before that we did it. We did it for Girl with a Dragon Tattoo. Before that.

[Andrew]

Yeah. We're used to like a certain amount of attendance from the Patreon bonus streams that we do. Patreon.com overdue pod of course, if you'd like to be part of those and the general public, one Gen Pop got rowdier than our. North than our.

[Craig]

Yeah, we expect this one to get plenty rowdy. So please do come on in. The water's fine.

[Andrew]

Don't make me turn the chat off. But I will do it.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's.

[Andrew]

I will figure out how to do it and then I will do it.

[Craig]

That's true. But let's keep this chat going. Andrew. I had.

[Andrew]

It's not a Nintendo direct. I don't want to have to turn the chat off.

[Craig]

Silksong lan So I had seen the film Arrival on a Plane.

[Andrew]

Whoa. On a plane first.

[Craig]

Yeah. Coming back from our delayed honeymoon and flying back from Europe and I don't remember. I think I watched Jurassic World first and it made me angry. And then I watched this and it made me sad. Slash complimentary.

[Andrew]

I just like there are a lot of movies that I honestly think are elevated by a 4 inch.

[Craig]

Nope, you're totally right.

[Andrew]

Back of the seat, plane screen with bad viewing angles and contrast ratios. But the sort of quiet, contemplative arrival.

[Craig]

Beautiful film.

[Andrew]

Yes. Is probably not the first place I would choose to experience that film for the first time.

[Craig]

I will confess.

[Andrew]

Premium rush the movie. Joseph Gordon Levitt is a bike messenger in New York City. Amazing plane movie arrival. Maybe not.

[Craig]

So no, it was a good flick. It was better when I saw it. Not on a plane, but it is good enough to transcend the medium. But I hadn't read any Ted Chiang. Been kind of thinking about coming to this collection at some point in time, knowing that the that film was based on one of the stories. And he is this highly regarded authority of almost exclusively like short stories and novelettes. So what can you tell me about Ted Chang? Andrew?

[Andrew]

I can tell you that our boy Ted Chang was born in 1967. He's an American sci fi writer and a winner of multiple Nebula Awards, the Hugo Award, Locus Awards, among many, many others. His parents both immigrated from China to Taiwan during and just after the Chinese Civil war and communist revolution in the late forties into the fift. And then they immigrated from Taiwan to the US And I just got sucked into. I don't have a lot to say about that except that he does have like a Chinese name listed on his. Yes, Wikipedia page, which I thought was interesting. Then I fell into a Wikipedia hole for a little bit about the communist revolution.

[Craig]

Sure. His dad is like a professor of mechanical engineering and his mom's a librarian. His sister might was a librarian. Was like his sister might be pest.

[Andrew]

In 2019, I think. Yeah.

[Craig]

His sister maybe is a physicist. And he. What did he go to school for? Computer science, I think.

[Andrew]

Yeah, he went for computer science. Yeah. And then was briefly in like the early 2000s at least, was like a technical writer at some places in. In Washington State.

[Craig]

He worked at Microsoft.

[Andrew]

Including Microsoft. Yes. Which is where he met his. His partner. Yeah. But, yeah, he grew up on Long Island. Began submitting sci fi stories to magazines at age 15. Continued to write as he earned his computer science degree from Brown University. Sold his first story called the Tower of Babylon in 1989, which was a hit out of the gate. Won him his first Nebula Award. This is one of the eight stories printed in Stories of youf Life and others. We already said the thing about Microsoft and technical writing, like you said up top. The entire collection was reprinted in 2016 as a rival, as kind of a marketing tie in for the film. Even though that's not the name of the original story.

[Craig]

Not at all.

[Andrew]

The other stories in the book.

[Craig]

Nope.

[Andrew]

Stories of your Life, the one adapted as A Rival, was first published in an anthology book called Starlight 2 in 1998 by Tor Books.

[Craig]

Story of your life.

[Andrew]

Yeah, Story of your life. That's what I said. Right.

[Craig]

I get confused on the plural sometimes.

[Andrew]

Because it's.

[Craig]

The collection is Stories. No, no, no.

[Andrew]

Oh, the collection is.

[Craig]

But yes, because the short story itself is called Story of. It's all very confusing in a book full of confusing ideas.

[Andrew]

I mean, this book is called like Three Different Things Already, so you know which one we're talking about. Yeah, but it was again, it was. It was published in this anthology book with a bunch of other writers stuff in 1998, and then it was reprinted with his other stories in this collection in 2002. And then his other. He has a second short story collection called Stories, which was published in 2019, 17 years later. This one does contain short stories published between 2007 and 2019. So it's not like he's been inactive that whole time, but he does not burn up the keyboard with his writing pace. He said in an interview to NPR in 2024 about the pace of writing. He says I can't claim any moral high ground or deliberate strategy. It's mostly just that I'm just a very slow WR writer. He says of his process and what kind of leads him to write the stories that he writes. And the fact that he does so few of them, I feel like, gives each individual one more weight as we talk about It. So I'm just. It makes me more interested to know where they all come from. But he says again to npr, I usually start with what you would call the big question. I'm interested in philosophical questions, but I think that thought experiments are often very abstract and it can be somewhat hard for people to engage with them. What science fiction is good at is it offers a way to dramatize thought experiments. The way it happens for me is that ideas come and ideas go. But when an idea keeps recurring to me over a period of time, months or sometimes years, that is an indicator to me that I should pay more attention to this idea, that this idea is gnawing at me. The only way for me to really get it, to stop gnawing at me is to write a story. Okay, so every story in this book represents an idea that is tormenting poor Ted Chiang until he writes about it.

[Craig]

Yeah, it seems like it. And like, even to hear him talk, I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about story of your life. But even hear him talk about that where he's like, well, I had an idea for a story and then I needed to study enough linguistics until I could write. Like, I didn't know how to write it for, like years.

[Andrew]

Just to continue talking about the movie that you watched on a little plain screen. And listen, I know that plain screens have gotten much larger and better, but this was.

[Craig]

This was. Even though.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, yeah, if you're talking 2016, 2017, this is just. This is what we had. The screenplay was written by Eric Heisserer and it was directed by our boy, Denis Villeneuve. Denis Villeneuve, yes. Who we knew. We know Denis primarily through the difficulty that we have had pronouncing his name over many years. Chang was not super involved in this. He said in an Elite Hub interview that he read a couple drafts, offered feedback, was in contact with Heisserber, but was not. I don't know that he might be in the credits somewhere beyond. Just like adapted from a story by. He was not like an integral part of the film's production. He did say, I got to visit the set for a couple days last summer when they were shooting in Montreal. They had constructed sets of the tunnel into the alien craft on the grounds of an abandoned factory. And when I was there, they were shooting the team's initial ascent. Mostly what I was struck by was how slow the moviemaking process is. They do a 30 second take and then spend an hour repositioning the lights and the cameras. Then they shoot the same Bit from a different angle and then you wait another hour. The entire first day that I was there, I don't think I heard a single line of dialogue spot spoken. The second day I heard a few lines repeated over and over again. But I never got any feel for what the scene would look like on the screen. There was also a certain air of secrecy on the set. I wasn't allowed to see any drawings of the ship exteriors of the aliens themselves, but I didn't mind. It was obvious that everyone was enthusiastic about the project and that was great to see. And then in that same Lit Hub interview, and this was in 2019, to give context, but he goes on to talk about how my stories are very internal with most of the action taking place in a person's head. So they're far from obvious candidates for filming. But then he goes on to talk about how that makes watching an adaptation of his work easier in some ways because he's not like married to a specific way that it looks or that the story goes in his head and it makes him a little bit. He did makes it made a little bit easier to watch and enjoy the movie.

[Craig]

I don't remember which interview it was, if it was the Seattle Times maybe where he. I think he said somebody showed him of Vilnuve movie that also has non chronological storytelling in it. And that like helped convince him to be like, yeah, this is cool. Like, you sure you're not just gonna turn this into a standard alien story? You're actually gonna kind of honor the spirit of the thing I wrote. Even though as we'll probably talk a little bit, there's a whole bunch of stuff in the movie that's not in the story at all. But that's, you know, that's fine.

[Andrew]

And his just a last note on what he has to say about. About movies in general and adaptations.

[Craig]

Oh, sure.

[Andrew]

He says that his favorite movie adaptation is overdue favorite the Princess Bride. Though he says he's not sure that it counts because William Goldman wrote both the book and the screenplay. So that's what he has to say about that. I believe that William Goldman also wrote about the boredom of moviemaking in yes, in his prologue for that book. But again, everybody was having fun on the set and that I guess that makes all the difference.

[Craig]

I think it does because there's so many movies where people are just not having fun. It seems like there's too many mean people making movies.

[Andrew]

Sometimes it reminds like hearing him talk about like, you know, you hear the same lines of dialogue over and over. And they just shoot it from a million angles. They can edit all together. There's an old story about Patrick Stewart watching old episodes of Star the Next Generation, like, years and years after it ended in, like, a hotel room or something. And his process most of the time for the episodes that he was in was like, he would learn his scene and he would do his scene, and he would not really worry about what the rest of everybody was doing all that much. And so he'll be watching these old episodes of TNG and be like, man, I'm so gripped. What's going to happen next? And I feel like that's got to be the way it feels to watch a movie that here's. It's like, I know what it was like to stand on this elevator and do this 30 times. What's it gonna look like as part of a narrative? I'm not sure.

[Craig]

I do think that starts to explain some of the actors who are like, wait, I was in a Marvel movie? I feel like I'm seeing some of these quotes even, like, more and more often. And it probably doesn't help that they all get filmed in a parking lot in Georgia.

[Andrew]

Yeah, they're all just on a big green screen set now. Like, who knows what you're in? Yeah, but maybe you're in a Marvel movie. Maybe you're in, like, a Japanese seltzer commercial.

[Craig]

Maybe you're in Boss Baby. You have no idea.

[Andrew]

Maybe you're in Boss Baby 2. Back in business. Is that what that movie's called? What's the subtitle?

[Craig]

I don't know. I'm a guy who's only seen Boss Baby and Arrival on a Plane. Those are the two movies I've seen.

[Andrew]

They all look, and you're sitting watching Arrival being, like, getting Boss Baby vibes.

[Craig]

From this baby vibes from this movie. Worth pointing out that Ted was inducted into the Sci Fi Fantasy hall of fame in 2020. He received the Pen Malamut Award for Excellence in Art of the Short Story just last year in 2024. He's a Titan in the field, it seems.

[Andrew]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, maybe one day they'll start letting people into that hall of fame, even if they've been doping to write their Sci fi story. That's. I don't know.

[Craig]

Put an asterisk next to this.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Are you a big hall guy? You a small hall guy, Andrew?

[Andrew]

I don't know what that. I don't understand what that means.

[Craig]

It has to do with whether or not you let the doping guys in or Not. And like, whether or not you put asterisks next to them, like, is that.

[Andrew]

Is that what the small hall is?

[Craig]

No, Big hall is let them all in, but give all the context.

[Andrew]

Oh, I thought there, I thought there were two separate halls and we were like making the doping guys like, sit at the kids table in the hall of Fame.

[Craig]

No, small hall is like, no, they did something bad. Get them out. Big hall is like, okay, just. It's part of the game, man. Just like tell the story. I think I'm a big hall guy.

[Andrew]

Especially because, like, it's not. It's not just that they were doping, it's that they were doping and they got caught doing it. So, like, you know, give. Give people the context, I guess.

[Craig]

Yeah. Anyway, now that we've concluded our Baseball hall of Fame chat, let's take a quick break and I can tell you about the eight stories in Stories of youf Life and Others, AKA Arrival, AKA this book.

[Andrew]

Greg, you know how to tell when you've arrived, just like in life generally.

[Craig]

Oh, usually when people go, hey, look at that guy. Wow.

[Andrew]

Well, one. One way to get people to go, hey, look at that guy is to have an amazing website. And you know who helps make amazing websites is Squarespace, sponsor of our podcast this week. Squarespace, of course, is the website that helps you make websites. It's a self propagating thing that just infinitely. It's a website that infinitely generates other websites with your input. Yes, with your input. Until we're all drowning in websites. But they have beautiful design templates. They have easy to use drag and drop tools. We have been Squarespace users for many, many years. They make a quality product and if you manage to figure out how to break something Somehow, they've also got 24, 7 customer support to help you unbreak it. Other things we like about Squarespace, Other things we like about Squarespace is they have cutting edge design. With Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Squarespace offers a complete library of professionally designed and award winning website templates with options for every use and category. No matter where you start, your website is flexible to what you need with intuitive drag and drop editing, beautiful styling options, unrivaled visual design effects on brand, AI content, and more ways to list what you offer. No experience required donations. Craig, give me some money, please. This is what my website would say to you if I made a nice website on Squarespace.

[Craig]

Give me some money, please.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Andrew, I must say quickly, what's that?

[Andrew]

What?

[Craig]

That When I said I had watched Arrival on a plane, I was coming home from my honeymoon. Now I made my wedding part of the ad. I made my wedding website on Squarespace.

[Andrew]

Oh, okay.

[Craig]

And then I got to. I got married. It worked. And then I went on a honeymoon and I watched the movie that's based on the story that we're reading today. And I'm still married ipso facto. Good website. Thanks Squarespace.

[Andrew]

Thanks Squarespace. If you also want to have a long and happy marriage, go to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Again, that's squarespace.com overdue to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Craig]

Tell the story of your life on the web. All right, Andrew, let me tell you about the eight stories in this collection. I'm going to read the titles, the name of the original magazine they were published in, and their publication year.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And then you can tell me which one you want to hear about first.

[Andrew]

Ooh, you can give me a little menu and I get to pick. This is the story of your life. I wanted to do that real quick.

[Craig]

It's really long and has a happy wife. You aren't so lonely now anyway. Tower of Babylon Omni 1990 Understand Asimovs 1991 Division by Zero Full Spectrum 31991 Story of your life Starlight 2199872 Letters Vanishing Acts 2000 Evolution of human science nature 2000 Hell is the absence of God Starlight 32001 or liking what you see A Documentary stories of your Life and others. 2002. Published, like, in this collection. Where would you like to begin?

[Andrew]

I feel like I'm going to put.

[Craig]

The list in our chat just so you have.

[Andrew]

No, that's good. I'm looking at it. I'm also looking at a list. Okay, give me division by zero. Let's hit that math first.

[Craig]

Let's hit the math one first. So this is what I don't have too much to say about because I'm not a math boy. It's true.

[Andrew]

You're not.

[Craig]

My logline for this one is, what if math made you lose your mind?

[Andrew]

That sounds like regular math. I don't know. And what if I'm just waiting for Henry to be old enough in school to come home with new math?

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

I'm just gonna, like, instantly be bamboozled.

[Craig]

By, like, I'm not looking forward to it at all. The new math. So in this story, a woman named Renee, who is a very gifted mathematician, inadvertently proves that arithmetic is inconsistent and doesn't work. That you can, like. I don't. I don't really understand the math well enough to know what's happening here. And the story kind of doesn't quite. I don't think that Chang is yada yada ing stuff here, but he is not publishing, you know, pages of proofs. The point is that this is a thing that happens. It's not a thing. He's not doing the proof. The character's doing the proof.

[Andrew]

I've watched a part of a show on Apple TV plus called Prime Target.

[Craig]

Oh, gosh, that in here.

[Andrew]

Which is. Which is what if Dan Brown was about math?

[Craig]

God.

[Andrew]

And the thing I've learned from Prime Target on Apple TV plus is you don't need to sweat, like, explaining how the math works. I think you could just say math is mysterious and confusing. And most people at home will be like, yeah, I'm on board with that. That makes sense to me.

[Craig]

There is apparently some sort of theorem by. What is his name? Goodall. I think he has some incompleteness theorems from the 1930s that talk about being able to prove that arithmetic is inconsistent and doesn't actually work, such that you could do a proof using arithmetic to make one plus one equal something other than two.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And that it would. And that it would make sense. And thus you've proven that, like, this underpinning of math is busted, and the universe as you know, it doesn't work.

[Andrew]

Yes. I don't know why you'd want to do that, but sure, Well, I don't.

[Craig]

Yeah, exactly. So Renee does this and it does break her brain. She does take. She makes an attempt on her life. Her husband Carl, who earlier in his life, for reasons unrelated to math, also tried to take his own life, but is, you know, living his life now and has a lot of, like, perspective on where he was and had a few people in his life who, like, helped him get through it. And then they're not in his life anymore, but he's like, grateful for who they were, you know, and where they were at the time. And it is about this. Like, he's able to help her and like, help her get in a ward for recovery. But it's also about the fact that because she made this, like, kind of world changing discovery that he didn't understand and couldn't understand, it's kind of broken his connection to her. Like, his actual, like, love for her. And so he's gonna help her get. The story ends with, like, her being grateful for helping. For him helping her. And he's like, you know, we, the reader know that he is warming up to, like, I'm gonna have to leave this at some point because I cannot. It will be. He says, he's like, it will be a sin, but it will. And it may not be a sin I ever forgive myself for, but, like, this doesn't work now. Something. Something is broken. So he has a. He has a. An emotional version of what happens to her brain when she proves that math is fake. And that's kind of what the story is like. It's. There's a little bit of the professional ramifications of her, like, publishing this paper and then, like, what's gonna happen? And then, of course, she is put in psychiatric care. So, like, does that impact what is gonna go on with this paper that got published? Is it gonna get retracted? But that's not really the point of the story. The point is that this is what happened to her. And how terr. How terrible would it be to, like, spend your whole life devoted to something and then by doing that thing, come up with a discovery that renders it all meaningless?

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Yeah. And severs your connection to it.

[Andrew]

That feels very like, what year was this one published? Do you know that off the top of your head, it just feels like a problem that people who work in technology would be super familiar with, because a lot of it is about trying to create a more like, automated or powerful tool that can then replace and obviate the need for other tools.

[Craig]

Yeah, it was published in 1991. It did remind me a little. There's a play called Proof by David Auburn. I think it's. It's also about folks who struggle with mental illness and also do really good math. And it is not necessarily about something as clean as this. It's a. It's a much more messy of a story, but I think it came out in the 90s. I'm not sure if there's like, a Zeitgeist thing there, but it similarly, like, you know, somebody is having a break from reality, and it has to do with this kind of their relationship to how they understand the world. And this is not a bad place to start, I think, for the rest of the collection, because so many of these stories are about, like, people think the world works one way and they learn that it either does or could work a different way. And when you put it like that, a lot of stories could be like that. But that is really what Chang is. Is interested in. He's interested in how folks work through their understanding of the world and how just the process of working through that understanding maybe changes them or alters the world around them. He said of this. So there's a whole thing in the back of this collection which I do appreciate, where for each story there's at least like, a paragraph or two about the inspiration for it or just kind of what the story makes him think about. And this one, he shared this. This, like. What is it? It's the Euler's identity. It's like E to the power of I. PI +1 equals 0. I don't know what that means. It's math, baby.

[Andrew]

It has to do sounds. It has. It has the. The tenor of something that the Scarecrow would eat after the wizard of Oz gave him a brain. You know, like something that you would say to sound super smart.

[Craig]

It's apparently something that is a work of mathematical beauty because it relates to PI being transcendental. And, like, you can't square.

[Andrew]

I mean, we all know.

[Craig]

We all know about things, obviously.

[Andrew]

We all know.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But we're explaining it in case you don't know.

[Craig]

Of course, I have no Wikipedia pages open at this time. And Chang says, like, this is this beautiful derivation of this equation. It, you know, it helps to explain the universe. It's so wonderful. And imagine if you. If you fell in love with mathematics that way and the universe in that way, and then you just suddenly learned that it was all an illusion. What would that do to you? So that's where that story comes from. What. What story do you want to go to next.

[Andrew]

Andrew, let's do. I feel like we don't want to do arrival two early. What are the one or two that you find yourself with? Like the kind of the least to say about or maybe ones that have like, a lot of like, thematic or stylistic overlap with the. With division by zero. If there's anything that does that.

[Craig]

Let's do. Let's do. The next two are the. We'll start with evolution of human science and then we'll do. Understand. Evolution of human science is interesting because it's like four or five pages long and it was published in Nature magazine, not a. Not a sci fi magazine. So it's written in the style of like a little. It's drier, it doesn't have characters. It's just. It's not quite fully academic because it's not. It's still describing something that's a bit more of like a fictional story. But when you start reading it, it is like, oh, wow, there's no protagonist here. There's no. There's no like, authorial voice other than, hey, this is a. This is in an article somewhere. And it's just a funny little short story about a world in which metahumans exist. And metahumans are like, in the metaverse.

[Andrew]

Like horrible 3D. Like they have legs.

[Craig]

No, it's. It's more. It's like they're an evolutionary. They're the next evolutionary form of humanity. Some. They've undergone some sort of treatment and they are super, super smart and they have their own scientific discoveries and culture that is effectively incomprehensible or very largely incomprehensible to regular humans. And metahumans can procreate and create more metahumans. But also, if you're. If you have a baby, you can give it like a treatment and make it a metahuman. Like the original treatment that created them. Like a gene therapy or something. The problem is if you create. If you make your baby a metahuman, then your baby will become unknowable to you as it grows up and becomes a person, and they will leave you behind. No, thank you.

[Andrew]

I mean, just some of that is just parenting. I don't know.

[Craig]

Yeah, no, elements.

[Andrew]

Elements of that that are common to parenting of regular non metahumans.

[Craig]

But. Yeah, but the question that this article in universe is asking is like, is there value to continued human scientific endeavor? Since we all know that the metahumans have passed us, like, why would we do this anymore? Because we know we don't. There are enough of Us that don't want this gene therapy anymore, that, like, there are still gonna be humans now, and what do we do now that we are like a second class version of our species? Do we completely give up on understanding the metahumans? Do we give up on having our own culture? And the. The article is somebody is making the case that, no, we should keep going because, like, maybe there's another way. We could get super smart and then we could talk to the metahumans again.

[Andrew]

I get just defining yourself in opposition to the metahumans. I guess that feels like its own kind of defeat. But I've got to say, like, I appreciate the questions the story is trying to raise, but, like, the most. The most common human reaction to a thing, and I'm thinking specifically of Americans, but like all humans, I think is, you think you're better than me.

[Craig]

Yes. That it hasn't A lot of these stories, you know, when they go into that kind of place, there is. It has skipped past whatever the, like the uprising phase might be or the violent push.

[Andrew]

Yeah. For the sake of the point he's trying to make. Yeah. We all. We all agree that there's nobody. There's. There's nobody who's like, oh, these metahumans. Oh, they think. They think they're better than me. Salt of the earth type. I don't know.

[Craig]

In some of the bigger stories, he does do a little bit of that in the. In the margins and with smaller characters, but this is just one where he's not concerned with it.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

So understand is a related story in a way. My logline here is unlock your mind. Guy's brain goes supersonic with vitamin K. Maybe that's how I would advertise the story.

[Andrew]

Feels like a press release from the RFK cdc.

[Craig]

So this is a story about a man who fell under some, like, ice in frozen water. He became, you know, he was brain dead, effectively.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

And they gave him some experimental treatment, largely infusing him with vitamin K. And it repaired his brain, and it is repairing his brain so much. I think here vitamin K is just supposed to be yada, yada, magic science juice. I don't like. That's really what it's supposed to.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. I just like, anytime anybody's like, yeah, fish oil, like, yeah.

[Craig]

I mean, vitamins are real. Vitamins are good.

[Andrew]

Vitamins. Many of these things are real. But when you start advocating for them as a replacement for, say, I don't know, just to pick something. Vaccines.

[Craig]

Yeah. No, fair enough.

[Andrew]

Then it gets bad and this feels like, yeah, just inject vitamin K into your brain. I think you'll never get. You'll never get Covid ever again.

[Craig]

That this is going to be some sort of, if not cautionary tale, at least a I don't know that I want this to happen to me story when someone says, well, just shoot them up with vitamin K. You'll be fine.

[Andrew]

Never take vitamin K. After this, it.

[Craig]

Becomes a little bit of a. I don't really remember the specifics of Flowers for Algernon, but like, the guy starts getting super.

[Andrew]

I mean, is that. Did you. Did you used to remember the specifics and then you slowly forgot them over time as the treatment wore off? Or.

[Craig]

Man, wow. So this guy starts getting super smart and they're going to study him and he. They learn that the drug works the most on people who were the most injured. Like the way that it rebuilds the brain, the effect is magnified when it has more to rebuild. He. What? This story does have a little nugget that I think is in some of the Chang stories, but I would be interested to know if he does this in the exhalation collection. Like, this guy is a holographic designer. Like, his job is making little holographic ads. Like, oh, it's kind of.

[Andrew]

I thought it made. This was a guy who, like, he's the one who makes the holofoil patterns for the Pokemon.

[Craig]

No, he makes like actual hologram. He makes actual holograms.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And so there's a scene where he's on the phone with somebody and he's amazed that he's doing like top level work while also carrying on a conversation because his brain is getting so big. Yeah, but the story doesn't have a lot of, you know, future science stuff except like, well, here's a guy whose job is holograms. Like this kind of, you know, I always find that kind of fun. This, that scene, though, is sort of like the scene in Seinfeld where George stopped having sex and now he's like, super smart and like, refined. Because this guy, I can't remember his name, if he has a name, Greco, maybe. He's like, no, I don't want to come see the movie Metal Eyes with you and my friends. I would like to go see a one woman show where she speaks in four different types of verse. I bet it will be more fun. Would you like to come with me? And they're like, no, we want to go see Metal.

[Andrew]

Sounds like it sucks. If only there were a podcast I could listen to about that episode, if.

[Craig]

Only maybe one day. And he starts going back into the doctors. And so from here, he is like, they're. They're doing the tests on him. He keeps getting smarter. He. His brain. It's not even just that he's smarter. It's that his brain can recognize and perceive larger and larger patterns or gestalts, he says. So he can just, like, quickly analyze things and retain all he has. Near perfect information retention. He ends up going off the grid because the CIA are, like, probably after him, or he thinks they are. He starts to be able to control his own body. He can, like, raise and lower his blood pressure. He can emit pheromones if he wants. He's get, you know. Pheromones?

[Andrew]

Yeah, No, I get.

[Craig]

Just making sure you recognize the implications.

[Andrew]

Yes, pheromones.

[Craig]

And then he kind of gets obsessed with creating, like, his own language and, like, looking inward for knowledge, for knowledge sake. And he does have to steal more vitamin K to see if he can make himself get even smarter. And it does make him go, like, haywire for a little bit. There's a whole section in here. I think it was Nora in our Discord in the Patreon Discord who said, so far, most of my thoughts on this collection, he did this better later in Exhalation. I haven't gotten a story of your life yet. I really didn't, like, understand it was way too long. I think if he had written it 25 years later, it would have been eight pages instead of 40. And I. I don't know that I go that far. I haven't read Exhalation to make the comparison. He did say that this was one of the first stories he'd read written in the collection. He'd written it while he was still in school and then, like, encouraged to keep it. It does feel a little overlong. It ends up with him, like, squaring off against another super brain man who he. Greco is the guy who is looking inward for, you know, transcendence. And this other guy is like, well, but what if I solved all the world's problems? What if I did that instead? What if I saved humanity and they. They square off with their brains and are able to hurt each other and ultimately Greco loses. But that one was one that went a little long for my taste.

[Andrew]

Do you. Do you just think we want to do Arrival last Or, like, so Arrival is the big one. I mean, I know it's called story of your life, but Arrival is a movie version. And it is probably for SEO Purposes what? We'll put the podcast episode up under the name of, um, you said there was one that made you think about generative AI stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah, we'll talk about.

[Andrew]

Chang has a lot of thoughts on that. I have, like, a whole, like, tranche of research on that. We can talk about. What are. What are the ones that are not those two.

[Craig]

Okay, so we'll do Tower Babylon next. That one is really good. I don't need to spend a lot of time with it.

[Andrew]

This is. If you. If you recall, his first published short story won a Nebula Award right Out of the Gate.

[Craig]

It's sort of biblical fantasy. It's not really sci fi. It's about the Tower of Babel. It's about them building a tower so high to get to heaven. Yeah. There's a lot of cool stuff in it where it's like, they. The flood happened, the great Deluge happened, and then they learned that they can, like, live on more parts of the world than they thought they could after the floods receded. And so they're going to try to build this thing so they can get to heaven. They're not sure if God wants them to do that. And the whole time they're doing it, they're kind of. Who knows? But it's told through the. The eyes of this guy from another city state who's been brought to Babel to help them mine heaven. And it, like, takes four months to get to the top of the tower. There's, like, cities of people who live on the tower. When you get to the top, the sun is beneath you and all the plants grow down.

[Andrew]

Well, that's. That's.

[Craig]

It's really wild.

[Andrew]

I am growing some seedlings for our garden.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

Office for the first time ever. And I did have to rotate my. My little plant starter pods because they were all leaning way too far in the direction of the window. I need. I needed them to, like, lean the other way.

[Craig]

And then ultimately they get to the top. They have to, like. It's a marble. It's just marble up there. It's just a big marble wall. This heaven is. And they do start mining it. You know, they brought their best Minecraft tools with them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's your diamond pickaxe.

[Craig]

Yeah. I did, like, think it was neat when he's like, no. They set fire near it to, like, weaken it so that they could crack it. It was kind of interesting. He, like, dove into how you might actually mine heaven. Okay. And then ultimately our character, like, goes through it. There is water up there. It's very scary. He makes it through and he thinks he's gonna get into heaven and instead he comes out of a cave back on earth. And the whole thing is like a recursive construction such that you can never actually like leave existence and get to heaven. And the reason that God never punished them for building this tower is because he knew that his. His creation would always be better. And, you know, have fun down there, guys.

[Andrew]

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I always knew that if you build up high enough, you would eventually get to the universe's kill screen. You wouldn't be able. There would be a point where you could not climb up anymore.

[Craig]

This one supposes. What if you get back? Yeah, it's kind of. That's a good way to put it. Kill screen. It's a great way to start the collection. It's like very different from anything I've ever read that is in a sci fi book. And there's a couple moments where like they. He sees night from the tower for the very first time that are like really beautifully written. So I highly just recommend going and read that story. It's cool. There's another story about God and angels and stuff. Another thing I didn't expect in here. Hell.

[Andrew]

Hell is the absence of God.

[Craig]

The absence of God. This story's wacky. I'm not gonna do it justice. It exists.

[Andrew]

Sounds. It sounds like a Smashing Pumpkin song or something. Like, what is the. What gives with this, Nick?

[Craig]

What if God is real and it's causing all sorts of problems? What if visitate. What if our world. Andrew. But angels visited all the time. And whenever they did, it was like a natural disaster. Like, sure, they would show up, some miracles would happen, but also things would explode and people would die. And some of those people would go to heaven and some of those people go to hell. Think about it.

[Andrew]

That's an interesting. I mean, if angel tourism is up to earth right now.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like that would explain a great many things.

[Craig]

Yeah. And so it centers on three people. One guy, Neil, whose very devout wife was killed in angel visitation. He knows she's in heaven, but he's not devout. And so now the only way for him to spend the afterlife with her is to become devout enough to make it to heaven, which he doesn't think he can do. There's a woman named Janice who was born without legs and becomes an. An inspirational speaker about it. And then. Which I think they say was caused by an angel visitation. Then she's visited again later and gets legs. And when she's giving another Motivational speech. After people are kind of like, not into her anymore, she says, wow, this is like, this is a test for me to now have legs and struggle with what my purpose in life is. And Neil is like, that sucks. An angel took my wife. Like, what this? And everybody's just like, this all sucks. What is interesting, are we talking about.

[Andrew]

Are we talking about large scale natural disasters?

[Craig]

Are we talking about like localized explosions in a mall? You know, or, you know, maybe there's a couple places where the visitations happen more often. And at the end of the book, some people go on a pilgrimage to one. If you see God's light, you are you. Your eyes go away. Like your face doesn't have eyes anymore.

[Andrew]

That sounds bad.

[Craig]

And then you. But no, but it's not bad because you saw God's light. And so.

[Andrew]

So you don't need to see nothing else. You saw the best thing is possible to see.

[Craig]

Yes, exactly. It's an interesting story because I don't. It is really wrestling with. To hear him talk about at the end of the book, like, the book of Job and like, why does God put him through all those trials only to restore, like, give him a bunch of stuff at the end when the. Wasn't the point of the trials that he was supposed to love God anyway, so why would he reward him? That's kind of like. So this, this story ends with some people very explicitly not getting rewarded for being devout. Oh, also, sometimes hell, just like, you can look at it, sometimes it just shows up in your neighborhood and you can look down and see all the people in hell and it's like, fine down there. But the main thing about it is that you can never think about God ever again or, like, be near God's love ever again. And like, that's what hell is.

[Andrew]

So Dante down there probably is Dante down there. And all the writers of antiquity are around him telling him how awesome.

[Craig]

I would imagine. So what I found most interesting about this story is it's got this kind of constellation of support groups. And in a way, it's not one to one at all. But it's like that the first phase of Fight Club has all that kind of weird support group stuff in it. It also reminded me of this. There was those support groups in the HBO Watchmen series that was like the people who experienced the squid disaster. Oh, sure, it's kind of. It's playing in that space. It's like what I liked about the Leftovers. Like, it's like, what if a supernatural event was really happening? Like how would our real world respond? How would the world that we know respond to it? Okay, pretty cool stuff, but one that I kind of had trouble, like, holding in my head. There's another one that I really liked at the end of the collection that we don't have to talk about a long time called Liking what you see a documentary. I think I saw that he turned down a Hugo Nom for this because he didn't like it that much. But I thought it was pretty neat. It's a story about there's a student body vote at a small liberal arts college where they are voting on whether or not to, I think, make mandatory this new technology that removes your ability to find people attractive or ugly. They have. They have, like, selectively give. They selectively give you, like a brain lesion essentially, where you're not face blind, but you just don't respond to physical attractiveness anymore based on people's faces. And, like, they go into some of the science, like the pseudo, you know, the in fiction science of it, but it's this, like, young girl who got it, like, parents give it to their kids, like, when they're young so that they grow up and try to be less judgmental. But then when you turn 18, like, you can choose to not have it anymore.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And so she's going through that personal journey at the same time that this school is voting on whether or not to adopt it as a society. And then there's like, astroturfed influencers from, like, cosmetic companies getting paid to, like, swing the student vote a certain way.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

It's a neat story. And it's also laid out like everybody is a talking head in a documentary. Like, it's not that. Like, the format is you're cutting between people's perspectives and they're talking to a camera or something.

[Andrew]

And this is. This is far before the mockumentary format was. Well, as tired as it is today.

[Craig]

As tired. I mean, it's certainly. Christopher Guest had made a bunch of movies already, so, you know.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but I'm talking, like, if you're. If you. If you were in a pretty US version of the Office World, then you are operating in a. In a different zone when it comes to doing mockumentaries.

[Craig]

Okay. So this story was being written as the British office was, like, coming out, I suppose.

[Andrew]

Sure, yeah. I mean, like.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's in the air.

[Andrew]

Sure. It doesn't have. It doesn't have a publication date on the, like the. The Wikipedia page, which I assume means it was written for the.

[Craig]

For the collection. So 2002.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

So, yeah. He's probably watching a lot of David Brent while he's writing this one.

[Andrew]

Yeah, he loves the office, probably.

[Craig]

So the last two stories we haven't talked about. 72 Letters and Story of youf Life. We'll start with 72 letters.

[Andrew]

We talking about, like, correspondence or, like, Alphabet.

[Craig]

72 letters in the Hebrew Alphabet.

[Andrew]

Oh, okay.

[Craig]

Okay, okay. So this is a story about.

[Andrew]

That feels like a lot.

[Craig]

It does. I know it's a lot to learn.

[Andrew]

The English one has 26, and that feels like plenty.

[Craig]

It is a, like, steampunk, Victorian AI robot story. Oh, boy.

[Andrew]

That's a lot.

[Craig]

It all works. I really liked this story. It's very interesting. Scientists animate clay golems using, like, animating words, names. This has. I think this is all part of, like, kind of cabalist tradition. Like, tradition of, like, you know, God's names and angels and demons, names and things like that. So what these people do is they, like, do research on finding out essential names, and then they can use those. They, like, write them on a little piece of paper, and then you put it in the robots and the clay or whatever. Robots, body or head, and then it will cause it to do stuff. And you can't make it do super complex stuff, but you can give it, like, a task. Okay. You don't have to make it a person. It doesn't have to look like a person. It could be a porcelain horse. It could be a gun.

[Andrew]

Like, a lot of gun.

[Craig]

Well, it's alive. I think when they explain it, you can't make it fire the gun, but you can make it aim itself or something. Sort of like a drone, I guess. But anyway, in this technology, there's also. They also know about thermodynamics, and they also. And they. What is this called? Pre. Preformation, I think, is the science that he's also riffing on, which is this idea that before we truly understood what was going on with, like, passing on genetic code, we thought. I guess some people thought that, like, when you're born and you have your, like, you know, you have sperm inside you if you're. If you're a male, and all of those sperms have all the sperms that they're gonna have inside them and, like, so on. And so, like, they were trying to figure out how animals could replicate, and this was the best they could come up with, like, the idea that it's all in there. And, like, all of the gen. All of the generations that are gonna come after you are already inside. You. Like, think about it. That's. That's what this, this science supposes anyway. So this guy is making robots. He's making clay robots.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And his name is Robert Stratton and he's pretty good at it. He's even made ones that can use their fingers to do stuff like make other robots.

[Andrew]

Oh no.

[Craig]

And his union boss basically is like, hey, I don't like this. I think it's going to put a lot of people out of work. Why do you want to do this? This is very impressive. But why? And he's like, actually, I think the texture mill and, and industrial techniques are like robbing people of their lives. I would like to make these automatons cheaper and able to be used in people's homes so that they can build cheap appliances for them to do like, you know, cottage industry again. Is this interesting? It doesn't, it's not an idea that holds a lot of water, but it is like this kind of noble, like there's a dignity of work argument that he's making. Right? Yeah.

[Andrew]

No, I mean it does.

[Craig]

This character is.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I feel like there is a. That he is thinking at all about what happens after all the humans get replaced by the robots. Actually gives this. That's what feels unrealistic compared to current.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Debates about technology is like all these tech billionaire jerkos want to, want to talk about, you know, automating things and making things easier for people, but they then never want to turn around and like talk about what people are going to do for like housing or health care. No, no, they never want to get that far. Like, we can, we can replace all the email jobs but like, no, no thought is given to what will happen to all the email job havers after that has happened.

[Craig]

Yes, it's, it's. So there's an like a through line in this story where this like particular boss and this like union that, this guy, this trade union that he's a member of are like not happy with his research and his work. Like they think it's going to cause problems for them. And at one point he reads like a pamphlet about how like the owners of capital are hogging all the letters. And like letters is capitalized because they mean like the, you know, like the.

[Andrew]

Letters you need to make to animate things.

[Craig]

Yeah. And they're like keeping the means of automation from, you know, working people who toil in the mills. So there's this kind of like class warfare thing that's going on in this story and some Rich guy comes up, Mr. Fieldhurst, and he's a member of some royal society. And he's like, hey, I like your research. I will fund you directly and you don't have to put up with this crap anymore. And he's like, that sounds interesting. Who's this disgraced doctor that you have working for you? And this disgraced doctor. They are doing. This goes back to the sperm thing, Andrew. They are doing research on. They can grow these bursts really fast. Spermatozoons, they call them. Really fast.

[Andrew]

We could say that anymore.

[Craig]

Really fast. And they become like big husks of people. They're not. They're not animated. They don't have like. Like. Wrong word. They don't. They don't have a soul or anything like that. They're just like a big, you know, organic thing that looks like a person.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And they're doing this, and they're growing them super fast so that they can look and see and harvest the spermatizoons inside. And then they're going to analyze those and grow them and then see what's inside. And they have learned that humanity is going to go infertile in like, no more than five generations.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

They've just made this discovery. That's just a react. That's just a thing that they've learned in the. In the.

[Andrew]

Because we're accepting as, like, for the sake of the story, we're accepting as true that this. That this theory is right about how far down the recursive sperm go.

[Craig]

Yes. And recursion. Recursion overall is, for me, was a theme that hit in a lot of these stories, like the tower of Babylon 1. The kind of inward thinking of understanding this one has recursive elements to it. And so he's like, well, that's interesting. What are you gonna do about it? They're like, well, we're gonna come up with a unim or a nate, like an essential name for humanity that has all the things that humanity can do. And then we're going to impress it upon an ovum, not a spermatizing. And then we can grow those ovums into real people because we've put the animating force of life into them.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And so this is a different form of reproduction than nature has us failing at right now.

[Andrew]

Seems. I'm gonna. I mean, this is just one person's opinion. It seems less fun than the way that we've It. We've got now.

[Craig]

It does seem less fun. Yes. And this guy, you know, signs this kind of Faustian Bargain where he's like, well, you'll let me research my cool finger tech, right? As long as I know. Like, yeah, we like your finger tech. It's probably going to be part of what we put on the ovum to make new people. And so he's like, that kind of sounds interesting. And then there's more labor politics. And then he has another. Like, he's having a drink with the disgraced doctor and the rich guy. And the rich guy's like, of course, you know, there's some implications for, like, what's going to happen with, you know, women who can now procreate without a man. Like, that's going to be interesting. That'll be kind of neat. We're thinking about independence and whatnot. And of course, the Royal Society is aware that members of the trade. Oh, the Royal Society. Black. Black males. The union. Into not pressing any problems with what's going on. So that's cool. But then he says, oh, why? Once we have human reproduction under our control, we will have a means of preventing the poor from having such large families as so many of them persist in having right now.

[Andrew]

Boy, like, at least two of these stories are just eugenics with different words.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Which is fun. Yes.

[Craig]

And it just kind of like. And immediately our main character and the disgraced doctor are like, well, that's not what I signed up for. I didn't know that we were doing eugenics. And our main character is like, I mean, I wonder if, like, we improved the conditions for the poor and, like, then their, you know, their children could grow up and be more refined and, like, lead better lives. And he's like, that's.

[Andrew]

That's the easiest way to get people with money and power to be like, yeah, I don't know about this.

[Craig]

That is exactly the response. He's like, for a few of them, that would probably work, but not all of them. And so there's this crisis of conscience. Should he abandon this project? Should he continue? And they, you know, some union guy tries to assassinate him. But he does uncover some research where he actually figures out that he could impress the name of, like, humanity itself and the act of creation itself onto the spermatizoons, which would basically create the real version of procreation that we have today where, like, they would not be the ovum would not be the one procreating. It would still be animated by the. Science is so fun to think about. It's so confusing. The ovum which was recreated would need the word coming from the spermatozoon to turn into a real person, which is effectively what fertilization is in the real world outside of this story, or was prior to this generational infertility described in the story. And he. So he uses his, like, magic science to come up with a new way to procreate. And he doesn't. The story ends with him, like, planning to do it and not telling the rich guy who wants to do eugenics. But, okay, it's an interesting story that has, like, a lot of intersections between labor politics, eugenics, and, like, automation. And, you know, what if the thing we make can make itself? Which I was like, just really? And it's Victorian England or something. Like, it's like, what is this man doing? Ted Chang.

[Andrew]

Yeah. No, it's. So it's. You told me not to do the AI discussion in the section of the book because you wanted me to do it here. In regards to this story, the labor politics thing is interesting because he. Ted Chiang has written a series of articles about AI for the New Yorker. Okay, the ones that I've read were published mostly in, like, 2023, 2024. But he did write one of the. One of the few AI articles that I've read that's, like, explicitly about the worker labor angle of it and not just, like. Usually when I read stuff that's negative about AI, it is negative about it. And like, a larger. Like, this business is unsustainable and doesn't make any sense. Like, these people are all selling a bill of goods about, like, general intelligence that they have not demonstrated that they can actually, like, get us to. It's stuff that is more critical of that in that sense. But he has an article that he wrote called Will I become the new McKinsey?

[Craig]

Oh, boy.

[Andrew]

The name of a corporate consulting firm that's kind of infamous for coming in and, you know, telling bosses to fire everybody.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Where he's basically. He's saying, AI is going to come in, it's going to cost all these people their jobs. And by the time we discover that is not actually good at any of this stuff or as good as it needs to be at this stuff, we will have decimated entire industries. This is a point that he also made in an NPR interview in 2024 that he wrote. Here's a quote from that that I think is interesting, an interesting summary. He says, as a science fiction writer, I've always had a certain interest in artificial intelligence. But as someone who studied computer science in college, I've always been acutely aware of the vast chasm between science fictional depictions of AI and the reality of AI. I think the companies who are trying to sell you AI benefit from blurring this distinction. So the companies that are calling literally everything AI, including stuff that would have been talked about as like, machine learning and some other terms a few years ago, are using this chatbot, which is essentially just using probability to determine the order of words. It should tell you that's a super, super generalized IDE explanation. But like the fact that it can plausibly seem like a person or like a, like a being that knows things and can learn things for a little while is like, it is creating an impression that it is something that it is not. Like it is, it is, it is playing on what people expect from AI. And I think, you know, now in retrospect, those articles from years ago about like that guy at Google or whatever who got fired because he was like.

[Craig]

They'Re holding prisoner in a cage. Right.

[Andrew]

It's just people imposing their own thought about what AI is over something that's like 90% of the way there, but that 10% is super important. I had read articles that he wrote from the New Yorker about AI without realizing that I had read them. My favorite one, and one that you should read and that we'll try to remember to link somewhere on social or something is from February 2023. It's called ChatGPT is a blurry JPEG of the web.

[Craig]

I remember that one. Yes, yes.

[Andrew]

And he's also talked about metaphors can only get us so far, but they are a way that we can use to understand things. So when he is saying a blurry jpeg, what a JPEG is, it takes sort of a raw image file, and it kind of alides over a lot of the detail and data in that image to shrink the file size down and make it easier to store it and easier to communicate it, just because it's, it's, it's smaller so it's easier to share.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And chatgpt in, in this, in this metaphor is using a similar sort of compression technology on knowledge. And, you know, maybe when it is working correctly, it can give you the, it can convey you the basic data that, like, gives you the answer that you're looking for, but it's also throwing out a ton of detail and a ton of stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah, Yep, yep.

[Andrew]

And is that, is that really what we want to do to the, to the Internet?

[Craig]

I would say no. And I'm very happy.

[Andrew]

Yes. Very bad. He's also talked about how AI is not going to make art.

[Craig]

Nope.

[Andrew]

And then he wrote in an interview with Distance Media. This is a thing that I think is interesting about. What if we do get to AGI? What if we do get to general artificial intelligence? Right now, humans cause incredible suffering to animals, and animals are made of flesh and blood, so it is easy to see that they suffer. A digital organism would not be made of flesh and blood, and so a lot of people would dismiss their suffering. So if we created digital organisms, I think we would inevitably cause them huge amounts of suffering.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

God, I wonder why there are 10 million billion trillion stories about robots rising up against their human oppressors. Yeah, I wonder why that's come up.

[Craig]

Over and over and over again. So glad we built the Torment Nexus. Really glad.

[Andrew]

Anyway, this is a big, like, five minute, no diversion about AI in the middle of this episode. But, yeah, it's. It's interesting how these. These questions stay relevant in the face of, like, new technological advances, because they are about, like, the nature of technological advancements.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's the first thing I thought of when I, like, three pages into this story from 2000, when he's like, I. I'm making a robot that makes more robots. And this. This union boss is mad at me. I'm like, okay, I. I'm familiar with this setup. Sure. And then I had forgotten that he'd written those articles, actually.

[Andrew]

So glad he brought them up. Yeah, I was excited to find out that it was him because I remembered that article and thinking it was a really useful way to think about it. Okay, let's do story of your house. We're an hour into our podcast. Chris, let's get to the fireworks factory and talk about the one story in this that probably, like, a critical mass of people know about already.

[Craig]

It's very good, this one, and it's called story of your life.

[Andrew]

And it's also sometimes called Arrival. There you go. All right.

[Craig]

This is a story in which a lady learns how to talk to aliens. And by learning how to talk to aliens, she learns to perceive time differently. She is a renowned doctor of linguistics, Dr. Louise Banks. And similar to what I liked about the Little beat and understand where he's like, I don't know, I make holograms. The beginning of this story, she is recruited and, like, a government guy and a physicist show up, and she's like, oh, is this about the aliens? And, like, that's it. That's just. The aliens are here. There's no big, like, invasion. There's no, like, wow, what is this in the sky? It's just you. Some guy in a suit comes to your office and asks how good at language you are, and you go, is this about the aliens? So this story is two. They're not parallel. It's all from her perspective, I believe. But she is intermittently describing her work, learning how to communicate and communicating with these heptapods, these aliens that have come from space and communicate are communicating with us for some reason, as well as a series of vignettes where she talks in, I guess, second person to her daughter throughout her daughter's life and throughout her own life. If you've never seen the film, the. This is, like, all out of order. The thing that. The thing that happens in order is the heptapod stuff that doesn't really jump around. But you get, like, snippets of her with her daughter when her daughter is, like, four. You get scenes from her when she's in middle school. And I think by that point, the marriage has fallen apart. And she, like, doesn't want to call her dad for help on her homework, but her dad's the only one who knows the answer. Mm. And it early, very early in the story, there's a vignette where it's like. And. And here at this point, you're 25, and me and your father are identifying you at a morgue. We're pulling the plastic off to make sure that it's you. And so from the jump, you have this information that she knows that her daughter is going to die or has died, and is telling the story of her daughter's life to her in some way, shape or form. And along with that, you're getting these stories about her and Dr. Gary Donnelly, who's this physicist. They. There are 112 semicircular mirrors around the planet. So there's, like, a lot of things we could do. These. There's all sorts of differences from the book and the movie game. The main thing is that they don't go in any ships. There's just these mirrors that came down, and then all the governments of the world built like, tents over them to keep them private. Mm. And they bring in linguists and physicists to try to communicate, because these discs are like. They're sort of like you're FaceTiming the aliens, I guess, at the time of this story being written, obviously, FaceTime is not a thing. Video chat was a thing that was out there in the world.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

And the heptapods are radially symmetrical, like a flower or a starfish or whatever. They have seven limbs, and they Kind of. I think that's how they speak. I don't really know. They've. It's not really clear. The verb that the. That the book uses a lot is flutter. And they make contact like a wing.

[Andrew]

Like a flutter.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And they nickname the two. So there's two people from humanity at each of these glass screens. And it's unclear how many heptapods are, like, up in space talking to us. But Dr. Banks and Dr. Donnelly get to talk to two of them called Flapper and Raspberry. Well, that's what we nickname them. Who knows what their names are? And it goes through the. Like, how would you attempt to learn another creature's language? And, like, she has done this with some aboriginal languages, so she has a starting point. They record them and then play the recordings back. The fun bits are when the government guy is always like, hey, can you teach them as little about us as possible? And she's like, I don't think so. They flew here through space. So, like, I'll do my best.

[Andrew]

They probably have some, like, baseline. I mean, I'm just thinking about that New York Times thing from, like, yesterday about how we found, like, the algae gas on a different planet.

[Craig]

There is a. Yeah, there is an interesting, like, little beat early in the story where the government guy is like, yeah, they can they communicate with us yet? And, like, they could probably watch our, like, tv, you know, beams in space. And she's like, that actually wouldn't work unless you had a frame of reference for our existence and what we were talking about. You would really struggle to actually learn to communicate with us just by watching our tv. So that was an interesting little, like, puncturing of a stereotype. And so they go through all of this, like, language acquisition with these aliens, and she learns that they just think differently and communicate differently from us. Their spoken language does not adhere to any word order. Like, they. If you ask them a question twice, they will give you the same answer, but all the words will probably be in a different order. And they, like, stack clauses in the middle of thoughts in a way that is, like, kind of confusing for humans to think through. And then they have a written language that is circular and does not mirror their spoken language at all. It's almost like it's a separate form of communication. And so she has to learn this written language. And that's, you know, that is the thing that starts making her brain function differently, because I don't remember how much you remember from the film, and I don't remember what if they talk about Fermat's principle of least time. But they talk.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I honestly don't like. Almost everything I remember is like Amy Adams in a room and they're like talking with smoke or something.

[Craig]

So, yeah, that's. There's no smoke. There's no, like. I don't think there's ink on the glass. It's like the aliens do, like, are in a room and they have video screens and they, like, wander in and they gesture at each other. There's none of the, like, big spooky monster smoke from the film. But they do have. They finally have a physics breakthrough with the aliens who up until this point have not really clicked on, like, can we communicate about arithmetic? They. But they jump on this thing that requires calculus, which is like, if a beam of light is going into water and it's trying. If it starts at point A and it's going to point B, it's going to go one direction through the air and then it's going to refract down through the water. Yeah. And there's this principle, or of least time they call it, where it's not just that the light is like being bent by the water. That's how we perceive it, like causally. You could also perceive it as the beam of light knows where it's going. It travels at a different speed through water. So it's picking a route that has the least time and it. And it calculates all the variables before it moves or something. But time, it's like it gets a little brain fry if you try to, like, ascribe thought to light, which is, I think, why people didn't like this initially. But the heptapods light up at this thing and it's what they learn is that that's because that's how the aliens, like, perceive time. They. It's not that they are fully the aliens from Deep Space Nine, Andrew, who, like, don't know what time is.

[Andrew]

We love talking about those aliens on this podcast now we do. There are two episodes in a row talking about the. Talking about the prophets in the wormhole. Star Trek Deep Space Nine. It's. What's patreon.com/equitypod Listen to our thoughts about the pilot of Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

[Craig]

What's kind of interesting about this book and actually like, reading it helped me understand what was being communicated in the film a bit more, it's that the heptapods perception of time is such that they can see where they're going and so they act such to realize that future. Does that make sense? I guess I have some quotes, and maybe this will. This will help.

[Andrew]

We're talking. We're getting into some recursive stuff again.

[Craig]

Yeah. So the existence of free will meant that we humans couldn't know the future. And we knew free will existed because we had direct experience of it. Volition was an intrinsic part of consciousness. Or was it? What if the experience of knowing the future changed a person? What if it evoked a sense of urgency, a sense of obligation to act precisely as she knew she would? And it goes on to say, for the heptapods, all language was performative. Instead of using language to inform, they used it to actualize. They already knew what would be said in a conversation, but in order for their knowledge to be true, the conversation would have to take place.

[Andrew]

Okay, just.

[Craig]

Yeah, like, we. We experience events in order, and we. We perceive their relationship as cause and effect. They experience all events at once and perceive a purpose underlying them all, a minimizing or maximizing purpose. And so it's. She kind of understands how their written language reflects all these principles. And by learning how to write it, it is impacting her own perception of her life and time. And so what you realize is this is her talking to her daughter, is this ability to both see the future in the past and live all of it kind of at once and try to express it. There's some stuff later in the story about all the lingua. So the aliens just leave at the end. It's not. There's no, like, gotta save the world extinction event, like, from the movie. It doesn't have to do with, like, making all the nations in the world get along because we can see the future. It is truly. The aliens just leave. And we're like, I don't know what happened. And there is, like, a little line about all the linguists who talked to the aliens kind of, like, hold. Trying to hold on to the language as best they can, because it did, like, alter their whole deal. The story ends. You know, we know that her daughter dies at some point. And we get this, like, scene where she and. She and Gary are going on a date, and she sees a salad bowl in the supermarket when they're buying food. And she's like, I think I need to buy that salad bowl. But she says that after she sees a salad bowl and then sees her daughter get, like, playing with it and get a cut. And so she's, like, starting to perceive parts of her life in different orders. And by seeing the memory, she then goes, well, I Have to buy that salad bowl. Like, it's like she's actualizing the future that she's experiencing. Like the aliens.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And the book ends with her and Gary deciding to have a baby and deciding to have their daughter knowing, based on her perception of reality, that their daughter is going to die before she does, that their marriage is going to fall apart, all that kind of stuff. Okay. And so it's this really. Yeah, it's this fascinating story about like, what would you do if you had knowledge of the future? Would it actually change your actions? If it could, the story kind of presumes that it kind of can't in a way. He says that it came from few things. He saw a one man show in Seattle where about a woman's death from cancer. And I think it was the wife of the, of the performer and like dealing with the inevitable. How do you deal with something that you know is out in front of you and what do you do with the time that you have and that knowledge? And he also says a little later, a friend had a baby and told Chang about recognizing her son from his movements in the womb. Like, I think as he tells it in the back of the book, that like this woman had like, you know, obviously been feeling the baby moving and like presuming that that was maybe like the legs kicking or whatever and then seeing the actual baby like kick and like connecting those two dots in, in her brain and in her body. And so Chang is like thinking about perceptions of time and how you could know someone before you know them or, you know, how would you experience someone's life if you knew that they were going to die? Okay. It's very good. It's very.

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, it sounds like, I mean, I can understand why you as a, I mean not you, but why one as a, as a screenwriter would read this and be like, man, I gotta do something with this.

[Craig]

Gotta do something with this. It's very good. It's very. The, the alien stuff is cool. It's like very grounded in the, the science of how they go about these interactions. And Chang is just, you know, he. Because it's a short story, he can really hang it on like two or three scientific principles and then like let the story run its course and then be done. But it's very moving. A lot of the stuff with, with her and her daughter is, is, you know, very slice of lifey of like a teen who does and doesn't want her around and marriage that is and isn't working, but it's all happening at the same time as all the other stuff.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's really good. I think people should read it. I have a few notes from our discord. Sam said this is the epitome of a blend of hard and soft sci fi. Every story has a thread of real, though sometimes historically believed. I think that's the spermato zoo nonsense. Science. Make sure to read the endnotes to see things you've missed. Bev says, I've just realized one of the things I like is that he doesn't make obvious moral judgments on things. It's not what if phones, but too much. It's more like what if phones, but very weird. I think is actually a really good way to think about it, especially with regard to the the hell is the absence of God story, which I was like, waiting to really become some sort of polemic about like religion. And it doesn't quite get there. It is, it is much more just an interrogation of if this were the case, what would it be like rather, which I think speaks to his, like, his approach to science probably as well, where he's not like, he's not. Maybe he's testing a hypothesis, but he is not, you know, adjusting the data to get what he wanted in the first place.

[Andrew]

Well, it seems like, you know, of all the stories we talked about, there has not been one where the through line is like attacking a specific group of no ideology. I don't think. And, you know, maybe that is being done in service of like, keeping the collection more accessible and not like turning people off who otherwise might be reached by whatever message it is that he's trying to. To put out there. I don't know. I'm putting ideas in his head. It's. It's something that occurs to me as we think about like the current media landscape.

[Craig]

Yeah, the closest is like eugenicists bad and, and you know, army people will see something to shoot at if the only thing they have is guns. Like, that's kind of like that's what that's going on in the story of your life, where they're like.

[Andrew]

I think that. I think that first one, you know, if we're talking about like late 90s into early 2000s, I think we can all be like, yeah, yeah, we can make the Nazis the bad guys in a video game. We can, we can say that eugenics is bad. Like this is. These are things that are uncontroversial at the time.

[Craig]

Yep, they are. But yeah, just a really impressive collection of ideas that he's interested in. And I was Yeah, I was struck by like, things that were. Are sort of feel recursive, but maybe that's also him like, being like, how do I think about how people think? There is a lot of thinking about thinking or thinking about where your feelings and motivations and animations come from, which. Yeah, a lot of stories are that way, but he's approaching it in a very specific way.

[Andrew]

So sure, yeah.

[Craig]

That's the stories of your life and others, AKA Arrival. Andrew.

[Andrew]

That's a lot of stories of. That's a lot of stories of my. Our life. Our lives and others.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad.

[Andrew]

I'm glad. It sounds. That sounds like you enjoyed it.

[Craig]

I agree.

[Andrew]

It's always hard to do a short story collection on the show because you don't want to give any individual one, like short strip. But then you talk about all of them and suddenly you've done a podcast.

[Craig]

I know. I definitely. I lied to you earlier today when I said it would be a short one. I'm very sorry.

[Andrew]

I can't believe you lied to me. But I do now I have to. Now I have to like, go back. I have to think back in time about when you said that to me and decide if I'm gonna do a podcast with you anyway, even though I know that you're lying.

[Craig]

Do you think about.

[Andrew]

I know how it's gonna.

[Craig]

Do you think about like perfect knowledge stuff, Andrew, at all. Like what? Like, if you had had more information about the future and what that would do.

[Andrew]

I think like a lot of times in like with parenting stuff especially, like, especially as we've, you know, had to make choices about like, Henry's education and the amount of like, assistance that he gets. Thinking a lot. I just assuming that if the future was foreseeable that it would be easier to plan.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

But I think the, I don't know, the implication in that is that you just want to look ahead and see that everything's okay. You're not really thinking about what if I look ahead and everything's horrible. So like.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yes, I agree.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, I've thought. I've thought about that. I thought about it mostly through that.

[Craig]

Lens, which is interesting. I have as well. And I've thought about it in the context of like, you know, tests that like doing like, more modern genetic testing for like, markers for like, serious diseases and like, what would you actually want to know that information until you had to know it sort of stuff.

[Andrew]

I would like to know what The Nintendo Switch 2 is going to cost and when the pre order Date's going to come up.

[Craig]

That.

[Andrew]

That's what. That's another. That's another way.

[Craig]

What. Okay, but in the. But in this story. In this story, you do know that. But you also can see like an extra two months in the future where you've dropped it on the floor and it's broken. And then you have to go through your life up until that moment making all this happy.

[Andrew]

I'm going to be exact how happy I'm gonna be playing Donkey Kong Bonanza for those two months, though.

[Craig]

That is the story.

[Andrew]

You cracked it. We did it.

[Craig]

Would it be worth it? I think the story presumes that it would because you would get to play Donkey Kong, even if it was only for a few weeks. Interesting. Thank you.

[Andrew]

Interesting.

[Craig]

Makes you think the stories of your tomodachi life.

[Andrew]

I did not mean to totally stomp on the video you were making about. About stuff, but.

[Craig]

No, I'm glad that you found. That's kind of what I wanted to get to though, is like. Because you were saying, like, it's about.

[Andrew]

The Nintendo Switch too. Yeah.

[Craig]

What if you could look ahead and know that things were gonna be okay. And this story, very, I think very cleverly is like, let me tell you up front that it's not gonna be okay. And then let's examine what we think about the future and our relationship to it. Because, yeah, I think a lot of stories that involve, like, perceiving other elements of time get wrapped up in the like, well, how do you change things? And this story very kind of neatly is like, well, that's not part of the equation. We don't get to go there. We're stuck with the reality we have and how are we going to live it?

[Andrew]

So also, I love that we have now, speaking of time, like, precisely carbon dated this podcast, like early to mid April of 2025.

[Craig]

Again, it's thematic for it to be. To have a timestamp because then people will be listening to in the future.

[Andrew]

Playing their Switch too, and. Well, or maybe they won't. Who knows? Who can say?

[Craig]

Who can say? The heptapods, probably. They know they're cool aliens. I like them bold. Take.

[Andrew]

How advanced is their Nintendo Switch technology?

[Craig]

Probably like the Nintendo Switch. Four.

[Andrew]

At least four or five.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's got. They can use seven JoyCons. Send us an email overdue podmail.com Tell us what you like have to.

[Andrew]

But they have to put the strap around their tentacles so they don't throw it at their TVs.

[Craig]

Well, because they've seen the future. They break that as an email over dupontgmail.com. tell us what you think about the movie Arrival or other movies that have made you cry on planes. This movie. That movie did make me cry on a plane. This book didn't make me cry, but it did make me have a lot of feelings. You can find us on social media at Overdue Pod. Our theme song was composed by Nick Lauren Just Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is our Internet website. If you head over there you will see links to the books that we have read and are going to read. I've also mentioned our Patreon project a couple of times. Patreon.com overduepod We've got lots of stuff going on right now. We got our Discord community. We've got our monthly newsletter that we are. We're actually hitting our deadline for every single month for four months so far.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Which I'm feeling pretty proud of us.

[Craig]

Against all odds.

[Andrew]

We've got a series called that that Craig has dubbed Overdue Special Collections where we just talk about some non book related thing. We've already talked about sonic the hedgehog 3 now we talked about Star Trek, Deep Space Nine. Who knows what's next?

[Craig]

We don't. We don't know.

[Andrew]

Patreon.com overduepod you can support the show financially, directly. That helps us do all kinds of things including keep, you know, to keep making time for the show in our lives.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And yeah. In exchange we give you stuff that we think and hope that you will like. So that's. That's that. Craig. What you've already said. But remind everybody what we're doing next week.

[Craig]

Episode 700. Life and death. Twilight reimagined. Somebody's swapping. Find out. Tune in. Who's swapping.

[Andrew]

Find out who, what and why.

[Craig]

If you don't want to listen on a delay, if you want to experience this reality with us in time, head to bit ly overdue 700 on Friday, April 25th at 8:30pm or travel back in time or watch it later and pretend you were there. Whatever you want to do. Download it on your phone. Listen to it while you're watching it. I don't care. Have fun. We'll be there talking about Edith and what's Beaufort. Beaufort.

[Andrew]

Have you not even cracked this bad boy yet?

[Craig]

I've been reading this one.

[Andrew]

Mmm. You're in for some. You're. You're in for some stuff. I'll tell you this as somebody who has Read the first, like, fifth of this book. You're in for. Some things cannot wait. Yeah. All right, everybody, thank you for listening. And until we talk to you next week about Twilight again, for some reason, please try to be happy. That was a headgum podcast.

[Craig]

Why do you keep saying that?

[Andrew]

I just. It just makes me think of it, you know, that at that phase of the bota box where the pressurists stopped.

[Craig]

And I don't think I knew you were drinking a bota box. I think I was very confused when you said you that boda, because I was like, I had no idea that you had bota box in your house.

[Andrew]

No, I had a boat. We have a bota box from the. From the egg party.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure. Great time to have a bota box.

[Andrew]

We. Yeah, we had a pink bota box in the fridge.

[Craig]

That's the one that's always in my house.

[Andrew]

I need fridge space back, so I'm tapping that bota.

[Craig]

Okay, okay.

[Andrew]

I'm at the part of the bota box. This could be part of the podcast. Or not. I honestly don't care. It could be like, one of those fun little after the. After the credits things. Are you slapping that bag? I'm not slapping that bag, but the pressure is running out, and I know I'm gonna have to dig the bag out soon if I want to get the last, last drop. The sweet, sweet bag.

[Craig]

Taking the sweet meats out of an animal when you do that.

[Andrew]

Sucking the marrow out of the bota box. Hey, bota box. Sorry.