Ep 744 - Interior Chinatown, by Charles Yu

Summary

Podcast Summary: Overdue Ep 744 - "Interior Chinatown" by Charles Yu

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Overdue, hosts Andrew and Craig discuss Charles Yu’s 2020 National Book Award-winning novel Interior Chinatown. They explore its inventive structure, its deep dive into Asian American identity and representation, and reflect on how Yu’s unique approach to narrative—framing the story as a TV screenplay—illuminates themes of assimilation, stereotype, and family. The discussion covers Yu’s background, literary inspirations, the novel’s meta format, and both hosts’ responses to its style and message.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Charles Yu’s Background & Context (07:32–14:35)

• Charles Yu was born in LA to Taiwanese immigrant parents, studied biology and poetry at UC Berkeley, and worked in patent law before turning to fiction.
• His earliest work, the story collection Third Class Superhero, followed by his meta sci-fi novel How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe (09:30), showed his penchant for experimental and self-referential narratives.
• Yu’s TV writing credits include Westworld (12:16), Legion, American Born Chinese, and he served as showrunner for Hulu’s Interior Chinatown adaptation (17:24).
• The idea for Interior Chinatown grew out of personal reflection on immigration, representation, and post-2016 American anxieties. Yu cites inspirations like The Sellout and the cyclical structure of Groundhog Day (13:48).

2. Structure and Style of "Interior Chinatown" (06:36, 23:46, 35:15)

• The novel blends script/screenplay formatting with second-person narration and blurs distinctions between literal acting and the “roles” immigrants and minorities perform in real life.
• The screenplay motif isn’t just a gimmick: it serves to highlight the flattening of Asian identities in American culture (27:38–28:09).
• The use of lists and repeated refrains from TV casting calls (27:38) underscores the limited, stereotypical parts available—both in entertainment and society.
• The book creates intentional ambiguity between what is “real” and what is “performed” (11:04, 23:46).

Quote:
"You are not Kung Fu Guy. You are currently background Oriental male. But you've been practicing. Maybe tomorrow will be the day..."
— Andrew, quoting Yu (25:01)

3. Plot Summary & Major Themes (22:15–53:06)

Characters & Setup

• Protagonist: Willis Wu, a Taiwanese American man, lives above the Golden Palace restaurant in “Interior Chinatown” and works as a bit player on the cop show Black and White.
• The show-within-the-book, “Black and White,” satirizes classic procedural dramas (Law & Order, SVU), featuring a Black male cop and a White female cop, with Asian roles relegated to background or cliché parts. (24:47, 38:59)
• Willis’ parents played similar stereotypical roles and are now aging into less lucrative or visible parts within the same limiting system (31:51).

Quote:
“Ever since you were a boy, you’ve dreamt of being Kung Fu Guy. You are not Kung Fu Guy. You are currently background Oriental male...”
— Andrew, quoting the book's opening (25:01)

Family & Generational Dynamics

• The narrative explores generational change, the experience of aging parents, and the slippery line between “making it” and falling into poverty (29:26).
• The relationship between Willis and his mother/father embodies both literal screen roles and lived immigrant experiences (26:31).

Willis’ Arc: Striving for More

• Willis aspires to rise from “Generic Asian Man” to the coveted “Kung Fu Guy” role on the show—and by extension, in life (39:36–40:55).

• His mother advises him:
  “Don’t grow up to be Kung Fu Guy, okay?”
  “Okay. I promise. Wait, what?”
  — Screenplay excerpt (41:07)

• Willis’ romantic relationship with Karen Lee (an Asian American actress) is marked by both mutual understanding of their roles and tension over authenticity and assimilation (47:36–49:36).

Meta Narrative and Blurring Realities

• As Willis achieves greater “success” (becomes Kung Fu Guy), his satisfaction dims, and the book’s reality increasingly fractures—culminating in a surreal courtroom scene (53:17–62:14) in which the dichotomies of race, identity, and belonging are debated, sometimes in pointedly essayistic terms (63:20).

Quote:
“Do you think you’re the only one who’s trapped?... Black and white, I mean, come on.”
— Turner, the Black detective (63:20)

• The story ends with Willis realizing the emptiness of chasing preordained roles and choosing to reconnect with his family, seeking a life “beyond the part.”

4. Literary Devices & Reception

Use of Second Person & Distance (35:15, 36:39)

• The book’s frequent use of “you” reinforces both performance and alienation, echoing Willis’ internal conflict about “acting” his own life.

Thematic Resonance and Meta Commentary

• The courtroom climax serves as both narrative set piece and a stage for Yu’s direct engagement with questions of Asian American belonging, assimilation, and structural racism (62:14–65:12).
• The hosts note similarities with works like The Sellout and Six Characters in Search of an Author in how the book handles shifting realities and social critique (54:06).

Host Impressions and Critiques (56:25–60:04)

• Despite normally bristling at “gimmicky” or overly clever structural novels, Andrew finds Yu’s balance of inventive form and grounded emotional content effective and moving:

  “So often when books go...descend into gimmick or structural experimentation... I look at it and I just see how sweaty it is… [but] it’s all happening so seamlessly.” (57:09)

• The integration of real-world references, like specific anti-Asian legislation, gives the story weight beyond its metafictional flourishes.

Listening Community Reactions (69:19–71:17)

• Listeners in Overdue’s Discord express personal resonance (“captured so many of my own experiences and perspectives”) and are struck by the TV adaptation’s different take on the book’s meta elements.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• [25:01] “Resume repertoire: Disgraced son, delivery guy, silent henchman, caught between two worlds, guy who runs in and gets kicked in the face... Your mother has played... Pretty oriental flower. Asiatic seductress. ...Old Asian woman. Your father has been at various times... Sifu, the mysterious kung fu master. Old Asian man.”
• [41:07] Ma: "Don't grow up to be Kung Fu Guy, okay?" / Willis: "Okay. I promise. Wait, what?"
• [47:36] “Putting her on a pedestal is just a different way of being alone. You try not to ruin this. She doesn't let you ruin it.”
• [63:20] Turner: “Do you think you're the only one who's trapped? … Black and white, I mean, come on.”
• [58:14] “Watching her [Phoebe] is like finding old letters of things you knew 30 years ago and haven’t thought of since. How to feel, how to be yourself, not how to perform or act, how to be.”
• [61:36] “More people are striving to be that capable than actually are. Right. ... But not everybody can be Kung Fu Guy, I suppose.”

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Important Timestamps

• Author Background & TV Work: 07:32–14:35
• Book’s Meta Structure: 23:46, 27:38, 35:15
• Character and Plot Setup: 22:15–29:26
• Lists of Stereotypical Roles: 25:00–28:09
• Themes of Family, Aging & Poverty: 29:26–34:50
• Willis’ Relationship & Self-Perception: 36:39–49:36
• Cop Show & TV Satire Elements: 38:59–39:11, 45:27–46:37
• Book’s Meta Break & Courtroom Climax: 53:17–63:20
• Host Critical Reflections: 56:25–60:04
• Community & TV Adaptation Discussion: 69:19–71:17

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Tone & Host Dynamics

• Casual but analytical, with self-deprecating humor and warmth.
• Friendly teasing about their “book podcast = smart boys” premise.
• Deep respect for the book’s thematic ambitions and technical achievements.

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Final Thoughts

• Interior Chinatown is celebrated for taking risks with structure while remaining emotionally accessible.
• Both hosts appreciate how Yu’s blending of screenplay form and metafictional elements ultimately serve to highlight, rather than dilute, the story’s core truths about representation, assimilation, and family.
• Recommended for anyone interested in contemporary immigrant narratives, the intersection of media and identity, or literary experiments that don’t lose sight of the human story.

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Further Learning

• For more on Interior Chinatown or to share your favorite TV procedurals (or suggest which might make a fun experimental novel), reach the hosts at [e-mail] or @OverduePod on social.

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[Next episode: Tuesdays with Morrie by Mitch Albom (75:47).]

Transcript

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

Craig, this episode of Overdue is brought to you by Marley Spoon. When I am left to my own devices, I fall into a meal rut. The same half dozen easy to make things just in a continuous loop forever. There are stretches where I get to dinner time and I think to myself, I cannot believe I have to eat again. But I recently tried the Marley Spoon meal delivery box for the first time and it was like my eyes had been opened in a very real way. Marley Spoon helped to save my household from the curse of I guess we'll do taco night. And I thank them for that. Craig, I know you've tried Marley Spoon too. Can you tell me some, tell them some stuff that you like about it, please.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

This is a Headgum Podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy

[Andrew]

away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Craig]

As I go very fast at the open, I'm like I got. We got a podcast to do.

[Andrew]

Hey rata da da da Da podcast.

[Craig]

And sometimes it's like, come on in to our living room. Not the boudoir, just the living room.

[Andrew]

No, not, no, not the boudoir. I mean, not unless. I mean less, if you play your cards right.

[Craig]

Interior Chinatown is the book that Andrew read.

[Andrew]

I did read. Every week, one of us reads a book that we've never read before in between doing weird, like, casting couch jokes, I guess.

[Craig]

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what that was.

[Andrew]

I don't know what it was either, but I was just kind of living in it. I was, I was letting the drama unfold. I was letting, letting the, you know, letting the characters. I think I was taking me where they wanted to take.

[Craig]

I was in like a noir movie mode. I don't know what was happening. Maybe Chinatown is what did it. That's a movie.

[Andrew]

One of us reads a book we've never read before, tells the other person about it, tells you about it. We all have a good time. We all get a little smarter, hopefully, because we're reading books and reading books makes you smart. It's good for the brain. That's why of all the things we could have had a podcast about, we

[Craig]

picked books because we wanted everybody to

[Andrew]

be like, oh, they have a book podcast. They're smart boys.

[Craig]

I honestly. Yeah.

[Andrew]

By Charles Yu. This is Interior Chinatown. And don't worry, Craig, it's a novel and the COVID says so.

[Craig]

Oh, good, I'm glad. Well, because from what I've heard about this book, one might be confused if it didn't say a novel on the front.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it takes the form often of a. Of a sort of a script.

[Craig]

A screenplay.

[Andrew]

A screenplay, yes, sure, sure. Well, it was adapted as a TV show, which I'm sure you're going to tell me about.

[Craig]

But yeah, I mean, yes, I will.

[Andrew]

I enjoyed this book. If we started to do it like a little, little TikTok version of the podcast, we're just like, I liked it. Then I would say that I like this one.

[Craig]

It doesn't stink.

[Andrew]

It doesn't stink. But now we're. But now we're going to do another, like 57 to 100 link in bio for full review. 57 to 100 minutes on this podcast. So tell me what you know about Charles Yu, who is the author of Interior Chinatown, a novel.

[Craig]

I'll do my best. Charles, you. Born in 1975 in LA. His parents had emigrated from Taiwan. His dad was an engineer. And he, Charles has said in interviews his family wanted a doctor or something. If he Couldn't be an engineer and he applied to medical school, but didn't end up going. After graduating from UC Berkeley with a degree in biology and a creative writing minor for poetry, he'll note, as long

[Andrew]

as it's a minor, it's fine.

[Craig]

As long as it's just a little minor.

[Andrew]

As long as your liberal arts whatever is just like a little thing that you put on the side. I have a cute creative writer, stem.

[Craig]

Yeah, he did go to Columbia University to get his JD and worked in patent law for a period of time, among other things.

[Andrew]

Such as what a miserable experience that must. My impression of patent law is mostly that it's people trying to claim they have invented something that already exists so they can sue existing companies for using their patents.

[Craig]

A lot of research on stuff people have come up with. Yeah, he did mergers and acquisitions and securities for a period of time. He talks about this time in his life as in he worked very, very hard, but he was young and didn't have any kids, so he still had time at night to have creative pursuits. And he was writing short stories. Over the mid aughts he wrote about 10 or 11 stories which became his first book, a collection, and then his second book, his first novel, how to Live.

[Andrew]

Wait, what was the collection called?

[Craig]

Oh, I don't know what it was called.

[Andrew]

Okay, well, never mind. I thought you would have.

[Craig]

It was called Third Class Superhero.

[Andrew]

Okay, cool.

[Craig]

Excuse me, I skipped over that in these notes. My apologies.

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, just. It's just a collection. Go find it yourself.

[Craig]

Do your own research somewhere and put them somewhere. I don't know. His, his first novel, his second book, how to Live Safely in a Science Fictional universe published in 2010. It was a run up runner up for the Campbell Award and on a lot of notable book lists for the year. It is a very meta book about kind of a version of himself who lives in a time machine.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean I came out in 2010. I feel like we were doing. It was peak meta.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

As opposed to anything that happens at the same time as season two of Community is like doing meta when it still feels fresh to do it.

[Craig]

Yeah. A version of himself lives in a

[Andrew]

timeless imagine me looking at the camera

[Craig]

and saying that Luke Skywalker is there. Also he gets in a time loop that involves reading the book he's writing. But ultimately it is like a father son story, like trying to track his father down. And I, I think I've seen reviews of this book that put it in conversation with how to live safely as a. Like, hey, it's got this kind of zany premise or structural setup, but it's ultimately about this. And like that book is, it's a father son story. It just happens to be this kind of kooky sci fi thing. I think the reviews I read of Interior Chinatown are like, he has some very specific things he wants to say about Asian American representation and culture.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And he has a, like, premise for it.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But it's interesting.

[Andrew]

There's dad stuff here. There's. It's like, it's very high concept, but it is essentially a commentary on, like, the immigrant experience and who gets to be American and who doesn't and all. Like, it's never the gimmick of the book, I guess, if you want to describe it that way, is that it's never clear what is, like, real and what isn't.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

You can draw that line wherever you want to, but that is what it's primarily interested in talking about.

[Craig]

Cool. I did see that how to Live Safely was optioned for a film that I don't think ever got produced.

[Andrew]

Love it. Love it. Love. When the only evidence for a film was one article that the film is definitely happening in, like, Variety or something.

[Craig]

There were two that I saw this time, and I did see a note about there being a stage adaptation at Available Light Theater in Columbus, Ohio, a place that I know people who work. That's pretty cool. He did get into writing for TV and film after how to Live Safely was optioned. It got him hired into the Westworld writers room, and he had at least one, like, full teleplay credit in the first season of Westworld.

[Andrew]

Oh, wow. Okay. First. First season.

[Craig]

The good season.

[Andrew]

Okay. I didn't even watch Westworld, and I know that the first season is the one that everybody was excited about.

[Craig]

That's the one.

[Andrew]

After that, it kind of lost.

[Craig]

They had juice in that one.

[Andrew]

It lost its way, if you will.

[Craig]

Oh, boy.

[Andrew]

I know how much you love loss. I hate to battle loss in front

[Craig]

of you, but you don't have to. You don't have to hate to bring it up, you know.

[Andrew]

Well, I don't actually twist

[Craig]

other. We'll talk about some of his other credits, including here and now, Lodge 49, Legion, sorry for your loss. American Born Chinese. What else? That's all I had there. He was the showrunner for the adaptation of this book, which we'll talk about in just a second. He says he started writing it in some way, shape or form in 2013, but after Trump's first inaugural, he felt like he really needed to lean in on this immigrant story that he was working on. Yeah, he had kids he's thinking about, like, both his parents and his kids and who gets to be an American, that sort of thing. He says he was inspired by a book we discovered the Sellout. The level of invention was inspiring, he said. He also says he was inspired by the cyclical structure of Groundhog Day.

[Andrew]

I think many of us have been inspired by the cyclical structure of Groundhog Day at some point.

[Craig]

It's a pretty Seminole one way or another.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

He also talks about. From the kind of the representation perspective that he is, like, writing about growing up there would be like the. Because a lot of the interviews, especially as he was doing the rounds for the TV show, are like, okay, you wrote this novel about, you know, representation of Asians and Asian Americans in US Pop culture. Like, what do you think about it now? Or whatever. And he's like, it's better than it was 10 years ago. When I was growing up, it was like, once a decade, there would be a thing with Asian people in it. And now there is more than just one. And that's good.

[Andrew]

I'm also thinking. And the way. The way that it's portrayed in the book, like, the main character's family is, like, from Taiwan, like that. That is being drawn from Yu's personal history. But the entire point of a lot of it is that it's. That it's flattened. It's talking about, you know, generic Asian man. The kind of roles that Asian people can play. Just the way that in American culture, people have trouble telling them apart. And so they all get wrapped up into. Into one thing. And, yeah, it's. It's interesting. It's interesting to think about the. The representation thing, because I do think if you're looking at, like, stuff like pachinko or even things like localized stuff like squid game, I think that you're seeing a little bit more of an effort to say, like, okay, here's what, like, Japanese media here looks like. Here's what Korean media looks like. Like, here's. You know, it's. It's differentiating a little bit more than maybe it would have a decade or however long ago.

[Craig]

And he even talks in a number of interviews about Bruce Lee being this kind of seminal figure in US Film. But that Bruce Lee as a mainstream leading man is a really specific thing.

[Andrew]

You're saying there's also not room for another Bruce Lee to be. No, we have a Bruce Lee, and it's Bruce Lee that's part of what the book is. Is saying is like, he's more an exception that proves the rule than he is like a roadmap to success for.

[Craig]

And there's like, yes, there's Bruce Lee and there's like, well, you can't be anything else. You can be, I think in one thing he says, you can be a nerdy person with a bowl cut and a pocket protector. Good work. Like, good luck. He publishes the book in January 2020 wins the National Book Award. That year he had actually been included back in the late aughts in a list from the National Book foundation of like a 5 under 35 program where they asked other awardees who they were like, excited about as writers. Kind of cool that he went back and was able to win the award.

[Andrew]

Sure, yeah.

[Craig]

He gets the Carnegie Medal in 2021. He was shortlisted for the Pre Medicine, which is the translated version of the Pre Medici French Literary Award. It's been given out since 1958. Awarded to authors whose fame does not yet match their talent.

[Andrew]

What a backhanded compliment that is. We think you're cool because not enough people think you're cool yet.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Ha ha.

[Craig]

The show was adapted into a one season of a TV series.

[Andrew]

What book was adapted?

[Craig]

The book was adapted.

[Andrew]

The show didn't adapt itself. It's not that meta.

[Craig]

Well, it was 10 episodes of a show on Hulu starring Jimmy Yang, Chloe Bennett, Zima and others. You was the showrunner. It was Taika Waititi was an EP and I believe directed the pilot. Dan Lin was another ep. There are a couple others. It wasn't. I know it wasn't like a breakout smash success, but it was well reviewed and we could talk maybe a little bit after you've discuss the book. That it does have to handle some of the meta elements a little differently, apparently. There's like a reveal that kind of happens later that maybe happens earlier in the book. I don't know. He did say that when asked about it, like, oh, isn't it easy? It was just a screenplay. He wrote a book that's like mostly a screenplay. Just make the TV show, right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And he's like, no, the fact that it was visually looked on the page like a script has really nothing to do with what would be necessary in order to turn it into something we could produce.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The way that just because it's formatted that way doesn't mean that you can like just like have a table read and shoot it that way. Like, that's not what it's doing. And. And yeah. The way it plays with reality makes that sort of. Sort of impossible because it's not clear what is being read to you as a script for, like, the show within a book that is happening. And, like, what is. What is being presented as reality. Like, that line is intentionally blurry.

[Craig]

Yeah. Almost as if it is borrowing the form to do things that only a novel can do. Interesting,

[Andrew]

man. So cool that we picked this to do a podcast about books. So we seem so smart and then we can say stuff like that and everybody at home can be like, whoa, that's a smart. That's smart.

[Craig]

Well, Andrew, I bet that we will continue to sound smart for the rest of the episode, but I do think we should probably take a break, probably rest our brains a little bit and come back and bring them to bear with their full strength on interior Chinatown.

[Andrew]

Colon a novel.

[Craig]

Colon a break. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Andrew, listen. I'm here to talk about websites, specifically websites that you make with the help of a great website called Squarespace is an all in one. Andrew, just listen. It's an all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, get paid all in one place. Andrew, listen, I need to tell you. They have so many amazing elements to their product. They help you offer services from consultations in events and experiences. You showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business, streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools, and do all of this with cutting edge design. Their cutting edge design tools let anyone build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. So go to squarespace.com overdue for a free trial and when you are ready to launch, use the offer code overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Andrew, I have to tell you. Stop it. Stop talking. Just go to squarespace.com overdue and when you're ready to launch, use that offer code overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Andrew, thank you for listening. Colon. We're back, Andrew. Interior Podcast studio. Two men talking. Oh, no. Which one is it? It's all the podcasts.

[Andrew]

We've never been in a podcast studio in our whole lives.

[Craig]

Is that true?

[Andrew]

I don't think it's literally true.

[Craig]

It's close to true though.

[Andrew]

Usually we're recording on either end of a video call. Yeah, that call has happened over various services over many years.

[Craig]

Yep. Not worth naming favorites.

[Andrew]

Sometimes we've been in the same room, but that's usually been just like things sort of wired into a mixer and things are like kind of balanced on top of other things in a way that doesn't seem stable or studio. Like. No, we've been in other, we've been at other people's podcast studios.

[Craig]

We've been in other people's podcast studios rarely. I don't think anyone's let us be there on our own.

[Andrew]

No. Why would they, why would they trust us with that?

[Craig]

Tell me about this book, Andrew. What happens in it? Who's it about? That sort of stuff.

[Andrew]

Interior Chinatown's protagonist is a man named Willis Wu. And it is, it's. Yeah, it is a book that is about the Asian American experience. Even, you know, about multiple generations of the Asian American experience, about who gets to be American, about like whether being born and raised here matters, about how Asian Americans fit in with this like black and white, like racial dichotomy that exists about whether Asian Americans get to even, I don't know, get to even feel sort of victimized by American racism because they don't fit into like the, you know, the, there's white people and there were slaves and that was, and that's like the original sin. And nothing that was as bad as slavery happened to Asian Americans. So do we get to feel like entitled to anything at all? I don't know. Like it's all, it's all dealing with that kind of stuff, but it's happening through the, through the lens of this character, Willis Wu, who is I think literally, I think literally an actor.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But also like the roles that he's playing, like he is playing a role in his own life at the same time as he's playing roles in like TV shows. And it all gets kind of mixed up and it's not really important where you personally can decide to draw the line kind of wherever you want.

[Craig]

I will. Thank you.

[Andrew]

You're welcome. But that's what's going on is that at one level there is a, there is a guy named Willis Wu. He is the son of Taiwanese immigrants who is living in this multi floor apartment building, you know, in, in Chinatown, like above the golden palace restaurant. Who is, you know, who is taking care of his dad and mom who are aging, who meets a woman and marries her and has a daughter. But so he's like performing that role, but he's also performing a role of like various sort of Asian characters on this in. In book TV show called Black and White where there is a. It's a black man cop and a white woman cop.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

And they solve crimes. Sure. And sometimes an Asian person gets to be there.

[Craig]

Sometimes they go dun dun. Probably.

[Andrew]

I'm not sure that they get like got from Dick Wolf, like the rights to the. The Dun Dun Savage.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Like, I don't. I don't know.

[Craig]

You're supposed to kind of hear it in your head while you're reading. Maybe.

[Andrew]

I think so. Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay, sure. So. And does he interact with them ever? Is he that minor of a character?

[Andrew]

He does interact with them. That's part of. So as. As Wu describes it, as Willis describes it. He is. He is talking about the. The kinds of roles that, that most Asian Americans can play on TV shows. He does talk about Bruce Lee and how Bruce Lee is like the pinnacle. But not everybody can be Bruce Lee. But you can like the pinnacle of this. You can be Kung Fu Guy.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

You can do like a Karate kid sort of Mr. Miyagi thing. Like that is the top of the hierarchy is like you are the lead in a thing. It is extremely like you're extremely pigeonholed as like this, you know, this wise upholder of mysticism and martial arts. But it is the role that most Asian actors dream of playing because it's the most you can do. Like everybody else gets to be like generic Asian man or like old Asian woman. The book opens with a bunch of examples of the kinds of roles that Asian people can play. Here's the first. Just the first thing you see in the book is. Interior, Golden Palace. Ever since you were a boy, you've dreamt of being Kung Fu Guy. You are not Kung Fu Guy. You are currently background Oriental male. But you've been practicing. Maybe tomorrow will be the day. Next page. Interior Golden Palace. Ever since you were a boy, you've dreamt of being Kung Fu Guy. You are not Kung Fu guy. You are currently Oriental guy making a weird face. But you've been practicing. Maybe tomorrow will be the day. Willis Wu. Asian actor. Skills Kung fu. Moderate proficiency. Fluent and accented English. Able to do face of great shame on command. Resume repertoire. Disgraced son, delivery guy. Silent henchman. Caught between two worlds. Guy who runs in and gets kicked in the face. Striving immigrant. Generic Asian man. Your mother has played. In no particular order. Pretty oriental flower. Asiatic seductress. Young dragon lady. Slightly less young dragon lady. Restaurant hostess. Girl with the almond eyes. Beautiful maiden number one. Dead. Beautiful maiden number one. Old Asian woman your father has been at various times. Twin dragon. Wizened Chinaman. Guy in a soiled T shirt. Inscrutable grocery owner in a soiled T shirt. Egg roll cook. Young Asian man. Sifu, the mysterious kung fu master. Old Asian man.

[Craig]

I like this. What I like about this is it does kind of show off how the non standard form allows him to. Some books can get away with lists, so not every book can and I know.

[Andrew]

And the whole book is not formatted like this. And I think it would be a lot harder to read if the whole thing was formatted like this. But it punctuates. Yeah, like all the, all the different stylistic things that it's cycling through. Like it. They all punctuate each other and.

[Craig]

And yeah, it just allows you to do stuff like this. Yes, yes, yes. And have it feel fun. And there's also like, you know, there's the built in knowledge of like. Well, there's like. Yeah, we're all familiar with characters that don't have names and what that does to those characters and how like full or rich they are or aren't. I'm reminded of. I can't remember what musical. I don't know if it was this. I don't think it was Saturday Night Fever music, like stage adaptation or what it was. But like a friend who just. There. The character's name was just racist. And you knew what that guy was about. The second he shows up, he's in one scene and he gets beat up and it's like, well, he. Okay, what.

[Andrew]

I mean, what if he wasn't racist and that was his name doing. But what if it's subverting expectations by me?

[Craig]

Well, that would be. That would be interesting, but it'd be

[Andrew]

a different kind of interesting.

[Craig]

Just literally why is the first thing I thought of. But yes, that is.

[Andrew]

What's a guy named Racist? That's.

[Craig]

Oh, boy, that's. Ron Howard's going to adapt that.

[Andrew]

What were his parents thinking?

[Craig]

What? I don't know. They got to look in the mirror. Anyway, what happens next in this interesting book?

[Andrew]

So the, the first part of the book, I think is mainly. You can read this mainly as a thing that takes place in reality and it's using sort of the language of screenplays and like these character archetypes to describe to you the life of Willis Wu, who is a sort of. He's a young man at this point in the book who has watched both his mother and father Play a bunch of roles. It does seem, I think we're meant to take these all as literally like on screen roles in different, like TV shows. But again, like the, the way that the book uses. Here are the roles that people play in society and here are the roles that people play in entertainment products. Like the way it sort of meshes and it makes those two interchangeable is. Is kind of the interesting thing that it's doing. Yeah, but his, you know, his parents have gone from playing like young Asian woman and like kung fu master to playing old Asian woman and old Asian man. He has watched his father go from being like a. A respected member of the community who's getting a lot of work to somebody who is like, still respected but who is getting less work. Like, it talks about how he is, like, literally how he was falling into poverty. This is, this is talking about his father. These days he is mostly old Asian man. No longer Sifu with the pants and the muscles and the look in his eye. All of that is gone now. But when did it happen? Over years and overnight. The day you first noticed you'd shown up a few minutes early for weekly lesson. Maybe that's what threw him off. When he answered the door, it took him a moment to recognize you. Two seconds or 20, a frozen eternity. Then as he regained himself, his familiar scowl, barking your name. And it was just that, getting by barely and no more because they'd also, in the way old people often do, slip gently into poverty, also without anyone noticing. Poor is relative, of course. None of you were rich or had any dreams of being rich or even knew anyone rich. But the widest gulf in the world is the distance between getting by and not quite getting by. Crossing that gap can happen in a hundred ways, almost all by accident. Bad day at work and. Or kid has a fever and. Or miss the bus and consequently 10 minutes late to the audition, which equals you don't get to play the part of background Oriental with downtrodden face, which equals stretch the dollar that week, Boil chicken bones twice for a watery soup, make the bottom of a bag of rice, last another dinner or three. So again, I think all, you know, you're meant to take these people as like, literally performers and actors who are doing this, this, this stuff to, to get by. But also just using that to be like, yeah, here, here is what it's like to be old and not have a lot of money. Here's, you know, here's what it's like to be able to play one kind of stereotypical Asian role and Then falling into another, like, less lucrative form of Asian role. What were you going to say?

[Craig]

Oh, well, two thoughts. One, the second one is that it. It feels like he's done a very good job of committing to the bit. Like, it's like it is a. It's a purposefully kind of squishy reality of a bit.

[Andrew]

Yeah, for sure.

[Craig]

But if he takes it as seriously as he needs to, you can just. The logic works as it. As both an allegory and a literal reading and kind of lends its strength. Right.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And that's what, that's what I think I like the most about it. Like there. There are definitely books that have picked a gimmick like this to run with that I have found very gimmicky that I have. You know, I've sort of tired of the shtick of it.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

I think relative to. Sorry, what was the name of the book that you read last week that he was inspired by? Yeah, the Sellout. Relative to the Sellout. I think this benefits from being shorter than you. And I have read a lot of books that. Where our impression has been that, you know, they say what they had to say, like, pretty early on and the book just keeps going after that. And I don't know that the sellout was like that, but I think a lot of critiques of it were that, like, the first third of it was,

[Craig]

you know, really more exciting than the rest or something.

[Andrew]

And the rest of it. Yeah. Kind of faded out. Yeah. I. Yes, this, this. This benefits from not belaboring things too much.

[Craig]

Sure. Well, and. And not maybe even dropping the artifice too early, even like, it's like having a solid grounding in its format that it's going to stick to.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think that's. That's what, that's what helps it work is that it does start with the things that seem more real. Like if you were talking about. If you're talking about like that. That line between getting by and not getting by or that. That line between, like, when do you, you know, when. When's the first time and, you know, this is something that. That people who are 30 or 40 years old as we are, I. That's the time in your life when this sort of thing starts to become a parent. It's like the first time you see your parent and they seem like an old person instead of being, you know, exactly as you remember them from. From childhood. Talking about this heavier stuff that. Yeah, some, like, cop show is not likely to be.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

Talking about not likely to Be trafficking in this stuff? No, like, by getting all this stuff up front and laying this groundwork up front. It. I think it. Yeah. As you. As you said, does give itself, like, a firmer foundation to do the space year and more experimental stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Toward the end. That is. That is what it goes.

[Craig]

I have another question for you.

[Andrew]

But.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

In some of these passages, it sounds like there's like a second person thing happening. Andrew, you know, I'm a sucker for a POV thing. You're in, like, using kind of DM voice sometimes. Like you walk into a room. What is that The. Is that the way the whole book functions? Like, what is the. In what way? Is it like talking to Wu at times or talking to Willis?

[Andrew]

I think, yeah, it's. It is. It's often using that. That second person. Because I think Wu does hold himself at sort of a remove. And that comes into play more toward the end of the book as he. You know, as. As he is getting. He. He's in this relationship with this woman, and he is. He is getting to know her. And she, I think, sees him and knows what's going on in his head and is, like, understanding of this, but not, like, infinitely patient with it and sees how he is even. Even in his regular life, sort of playing a role, going through motions, and even kind of experiencing his own life at a remove. Like experiencing his own life as if it is a role that he is playing.

[Craig]

Sure. Okay.

[Andrew]

And, yeah, it's. It's. It's not always told. And then, like, oh, you do this. You do this. You do this language. But it is. That. That is.

[Craig]

It was striking me as.

[Andrew]

It's more often. It's more often using. Yeah. Like, either the second or the. Or the third person, or even using this, like this script format, the screenplay formatting to create distance between Wu and the things that he is experiencing. Maybe. And maybe he's literally experiencing them.

[Craig]

Or maybe that's.

[Andrew]

But that's not. Like. That's not. Yeah, it's not. It's not what the book wants to talk about.

[Craig]

Yeah. All right, tell me what else happens. Like, it's doing some setup, and then how does it move forward?

[Andrew]

Well, so Wu is. You know, he's got this family stuff going on. It gives you a grounding. And we hear mostly about his father, Sifu, and we've already talked about him a little bit, how he. How he used to be kung fu guy, who is the pinnacle of roles that most Asian American actors can expect to play. But he is sort of Aging out of it. There was another guy in the community named older Brother, and not literally Willis's older brother, but sort of an older brother to the community who did seem like he. He had the juice that he could have been not just kung fu guy, but also could have been, like, Bruce Lee. But he left and kind of disappeared. And at a certain point, you stop, like, following the thread of what older brother is doing because he's just not around anymore. But Willis is working on this cop show named Black and White, and there is a handsome, chiseled black detective, a male black detective, and a. A pretty, but, you know, but. But stern, and she's. She's taken seriously. A pretty but. But respected white woman detective.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Both sort of in their early 30s. Both are kind of doing, like, a flirty thing, but if they ever actually kissed or got together, the whole show

[Craig]

would fall apart, because it only works if. If it's fan fiction only.

[Andrew]

It a. It's doing an SVU and, like, give me a. Give me a moment to look up what the. I think it's the Impossible Crimes Unit. Yeah, the Impossible crimes unit, the ICU, which is giving me big 24 vibes. But, yeah, I think it's. I think if you are. If you're in. If your brain is in the neighborhood of a law and order svu.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure. Okay.

[Andrew]

Except, like, not with, you know, without two white people in the lead of it.

[Craig]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Andrew]

Like, think of. Think of scvu, but, like, all the riffs on it that have been done over the course of many, many.

[Craig]

And.

[Andrew]

Yeah, so you've got them. You've got, like, a, you know, pretty black detective who is all. Who is on the poster, but it's, like, way in the. Who is way in the background compared to black and white. But he is working. You know, he's working his way up the roster of Asian American characters as he is as he's on this show.

[Craig]

Okay,

[Andrew]

let me see here. You climb the ladder, Generic Asian man number one. You say the words, you train, you stay in shape. You do the cop show. You're close now. Close enough. Enough to imagine a different life. Yeah. In the morning, you do the cop show. In the afternoon, you do the cop show. You get your envelope. 90 bucks for being generic Asian man. You train, you stay in shape. You get ready for your next role. Slowly, you climb the ladder, Generic Asian man number three. Generic Asian man number two. You practice the words you will have to say. I did it for my family's honor, officer. I have disgraced my family. And now I must pay the price without face. I have nothing. Honor means everything in my culture. You wouldn't understand.

[Craig]

I think Yu does talk about being grateful that he's never had to be in a writer's room where he was asked to write those types of words.

[Andrew]

Yeah, But I think he, having absorbed any American media with American characters in it, you can absolutely see where all this stuff is coming from. But he's rising up the ranks on the show Black and White, and he becomes sort of a recurring character.

[Craig]

Ooh.

[Andrew]

And he thinks, you know, I'm doing this. I could eventually, if I just keep working at it, I could get out. I could be Kung Fu Guy. And he wants to be Kung Fu Guy because that's the highest rung on the ladder.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

We get this bit earlier in the book with him and his mother. This is formatted in screenplay format. I don't know. Should I just give you the thing?

[Craig]

Do you want to be.

[Andrew]

Do you want to be Ma, or do you want to be Willis? Do you want to be Kung Fu Kid? Who is Willis Wu?

[Craig]

I'll be Kung Fu Kid.

[Andrew]

Okay. I'll be Ma.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Don't grow up to be Kung Fu Guy, okay?

[Craig]

Okay. I promise. Wait, what?

[Andrew]

You heard me. Don't be Kung Fu Guy.

[Craig]

Oh. Then what should I be?

[Andrew]

Be more. Lying there in silence, you try to imagine what she could possibly mean. Kung Fu Guy is the pinnacle. How could anyone be more. And this is like a chapter break.

[Craig]

Whoa.

[Andrew]

But yet you see him striving to be Kung Fu Guy, and he's, you know, he's been given this. This directive from his mother not to be Kung Fu Guy, like, to break out of this. But he doesn't really understand what that means because he's in this. You know, he's watched. He's watched his father participate in this. He is participating in it himself.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

He's trying to. He's trying to rise up. And so he is. You know, he's on the show. He is a recurring character. He's part of this big scene where he has a bunch of lines.

[Craig]

Ooh.

[Andrew]

They're like, following the money. This is a thing where the reality of the book and, like, the reality of the show, Black and White, are starting to bleed together. But they're, like, looking for Older Brother, a character who has disappeared. And in the show Black and White, older brother is just like, I don't know. He's the big boss. He's somebody. They're trying to follow the money to get to Him.

[Craig]

But you know, that older brother is also his literal older brother.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, it's not his literal older brother. He's an older brother to the community.

[Craig]

Yeah, okay. Okay. Literally related, but yeah, sure. Okay.

[Andrew]

Okay. But he's so. He's somebody who's not there anymore. And this other cop comes into the scene that they're playing. Or is it real life or is it a scene. Who knows? I don't know. It gets wobbly.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's intentionally wobbly.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But this Asian lady cop named Karen Lee comes on and he realizes, oh, you are also on the poster, but way in the background relative to black and white. I've been watching High Potential, which is the, the police procedural with Kaitlin Olson from Always Sunny on it.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And I'm so fascinated, I think partly because I'd read in reviews that it was fun. And it's been a while since I've had sort of a Bones esque. One's a weirdo, one's a cop. They solve crimes, like procedural in my.

[Craig]

It's a network show. Which is a, It's a network show.

[Andrew]

I'm also like, I'm sort of fascinated by Kaitlin Olsen, who has, like, done the thing that's gonna be on her tombstone already and could just ride that forever. And she decides, you know, what's gonna be creatively fulfilling for me is to be on a police procedural that in a different era of television could. For 12 seasons of 22 episodes each, and then, like, perfectly fine and, like, that's what I'm gonna do. And she, like, is, she's, she's giving, giving her all to that role. She's bringing a lot of pathos to it that she does not get to bring to her role on Always Sunny, where she's playing one of like, five trash bags.

[Craig]

Well, her, her partner is, too, is also very busy.

[Andrew]

He's very busy owning a soccer team or whatever it is. Changing his name.

[Craig]

His name is, is different now. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Whatever it is. That, that, that he is that he.

[Craig]

Good old Rob Mack. Yeah. Any who. Okay. Make your comparison to High Potential. Sorry.

[Andrew]

No, I just like, I, I, I'm watching that crime show and this is,

[Craig]

this is, this is scratching an itch.

[Andrew]

The scratching is scratching a crime show itch where you see all, you know, you get. Bones did this a lot where I always think about, like, the, the Jersey Shore episode. They always like to pick, like, a subculture and then dive into it for an episode. Sure. And they also like to have, like, a Guy who would come back for sweeps or whatever and he would be like the big bad for a while. So yeah, definitely, Remember I definitely. It's, it's playing with like, oh, you get this guy who comes back like four times per episode. You get like exploring this, this, this one special weird subculture on, on the crime show. Like it's all, it's just all very

[Craig]

familiar thinking it's doing it sting. You know, I have a number of folks I'm not in touch with anymore because I'm not really doing theater that often. Hasn't, haven't done it for years.

[Andrew]

But when you, you can get back in, you can get back in the game. Like just when you thought you were out, they pulled you back in.

[Craig]

I mean my phone's on, give me a call.

[Andrew]

They're going to call you and be like, we need something. The director just got arrested. We need someone, we need someone, we need someone to come in and direct this thing and, and the curtain goes up, up tomorrow.

[Craig]

I don't know if I could do that. I had a lot of problems with the way that they used the 30 minute half hour thing in that one season of Only Murders. Anyway, the fun thing about still occasionally logging on to the facebook.com is seeing, you know, folks who I've known for, you know, in some way, shape or form for over a decade, like, okay, which of you finally got your episode of Law and Order? And like you're like a depraved person from this subculture, right? Like that's your episode. Or the.

[Andrew]

Yeah, who got to be a weird furry on Law and Order?

[Craig]

Who got to be this, you know, representative of this part of the Internet. And then there are like the handful of folks who are regulars or have found their own Law and Order esque show and like that's all they post about because that's, that's their show and they got to make it work. They gotta put out, they gotta like blast it to all their platforms because that's why, that's what they ask all the people love to do. Love to blast my blasted to your platforms. It's just an interesting, like I, I have a, a personal lens on the like oh, how close can you get to the front? How can I make you out in the poster sort of thing of a show. I also think it's kind of cool to think of a poster for a TV show which is not something I think about. I suppose that in this book is from a little while ago, but I imagine it's just like the Big image on the streaming platform as well is what maybe they're talking about. But okay, so Karen Lee has arrived.

[Andrew]

He meets Karen Lee and she says, you know, I did. I've. I've noticed you playing roles in the background before, and you always seem like you had a little bit of a. You had a little joke thing going with other performers on the show. And so. And for Willis, this is. It's so flattering to him to know that she noticed him even though he was only doing, like bit part play things. There's a thing that keeps happening as their relationship unfolds, where Karen keeps catching Willis, like holding their relationship at a remove or like. Or playing it as though he is playing a role. More coffee. More cold desserts. Talking. Some kissing happens. More talking. You play games. Would you rather. Would you rather, colon, be handsome dead Asian with no lines or silly Oriental who says silly things? You do voices slip into roles you've both done. Share the dumbest things you've ever had to say at work. More tea. More eating a fried thing. Things on sticks and laughing and taking on goofy roles. You want to tell her how you feel. You rehearse what you're going to say, imagining yourself in profile, Dewey, and tendered eyes. She notices you rehearsing. Will, what are you doing? Being in love with you. No, you're not. You're falling in love. Same thing. Not the same thing. She says falling in love is a story. She says that telling a love story is something one person does. Being in love takes both of them. Putting her on a pedestal is just a different way of being alone. You try not to ruin this. She doesn't let you ruin it. It's going well. It keeps going well until the point where it normally stops going well and seems like it's going to start going less well. But then it gets to that point and it doesn't stop going well. And so you see, you see how she understands him and understands what is what his brain is doing, where he's always. He's always filtering his own life through the rubric of what kinds of roles an Asian man can play on an American television show.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

And for. And for a long time, she has. She has patience for him doing this. And they do get married. She does succeed enough that she is. She's gonna be given her own show. It's not super specific about what that show is, but it's not important. Like the book does get more and more. It does get more and more difficult to say conclusively like this is what is the real background of the book. And this is like what's happening in the weird TV show, like, as it goes on. And that's intentional, but he is doing okay. He does, he does get killed on Black and White, the, the cop show. But it is, the way it's, the way it's presented is, you know, when an Asian character gets killed on the show, you're dead for 45 days. And that's long enough for you to come back as like a different character because the audience is not going to know the difference. And so he is. He has started back at a lower rung on the ladder, but the. Whoever is making the show likes him enough to keep bringing him back. So he's like, yeah, I'm going to keep. I'm going to keep climbing. I'm going to keep climbing. She is pregnant. She has a daughter named Phoebe. And she gets to this point where she's like, hey, I'm. I'm being given this show and you could be, you could be on the show too. And he's like, well, I'm. I could. I think I'm on the cusp of succeeding on my own. Like, I, I want to. I want to do this, this thing on my own. And it becomes a thing where she's like, well, I guess you're not comfortable with me being the. Being the person who's doing better. Like being the lead person. And they, they separate and they're. They're both doing their own thing and they like slowly become estranged. And he does manage to become Kung Fu Guy finally. Like, he gets this thing that, that he has always wanted.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

But then he sort of feels, he. He feels differently about it once he has. Once he has it. And this, this is, this is a. One of many examples of the reality of the book. Breaking is like, are, are the, are the detectives on Black and White real people or are they characters on a TV show? It doesn't really matter. He does like steal the detective's car and then drive out to wherever his. Wherever Karen is and Phoebe is and decides to start over with them and like become a dad. He, like, he's. He's gotten to be Kung Fu Guy and he realizes that it's sort of an empty thing, decides he changes his mind, wants to do a different thing. He goes out to see them. There's this very strange sequence where like, Phoebe is part of a kids show that like, is. Is like takes place in an idea. Some idealized diverse suburb of America and there are a bunch of like, you know, like how on Blues Clues, like there would be off screen kids who would yell stuff at Steve or whoever about, you know, what to do. Like where the clues were to the left. And so Phoebe is a character on. On this show where she's doing stuff. And then there are also just like off screen kids yelling stuff all the time. Time.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And he's discovering that he wants to be. He wants to be a dad, whatever. And then outside, a bunch of cops have shown up to arrest him because he stole a car.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

From Black and White. And the detectives from Black and like, Turner and Green are their names. Turner is the black guy who. Who clenches his jaws in a way that sort of makes his muscles pop that everybody really likes.

[Craig]

Great.

[Andrew]

And then Green is just like a very pretty woman.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But they're like, outside as actual detectives who are like, arresting him.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, good. Okay.

[Andrew]

And then the big sort of climactic scene of the book is this big is the big courtroom scene where Willis Wu is on trial for stealing this car and running away from Black and White. And this is reality is completely broken down at this point. You gotta see the whole thing as like a metaphor for. Yeah, I saw some hundred different things. Yeah.

[Craig]

Some reviews mention, like, what kind of.

[Andrew]

What kind of reviews are you talking about?

[Craig]

Oh, sure, they. They come from a website called Goodreads and they have not one, not two, but three stars.

[Andrew]

Three star Goodreads review.

[Craig]

Oh, who's that? Oh, who's this man doing a car cover? Why is Waluigi doing, like.

[Andrew]

I'm like Waluigi doing Bob Dylan.

[Craig]

Yeah. Oh, no. Oh, no. There was somebody in the, in the Goodreads reviews that, like, name checked Pirandello and which. Which would be like six characters in search of an author, which is like.

[Andrew]

I read that they were going to find that author.

[Craig]

You thought, I don't think so. I read that for the show years and years ago. I don't really remember the episode. I remember reading it while walking around in the subway. Whatever I was doing in my life at the time.

[Andrew]

But you getting a $5 footlong is what it sounds like.

[Craig]

Not that

[Andrew]

you got to be more specific.

[Craig]

Joy said, I found it clever and worth reading, but did not particularly care for the emphasis on structure over story. Okay. Mika said, now, all of this is brilliantly thought out and highly inventive. But as the storyline is sparse and many parts are highly descriptive, clearly stating narrative purposes and sometimes even bordering on essay writing, the basic idea did not really carry over the whole distance. But to be fair, this criticism also touches upon the field of personal taste. What a sentence to include. And I'm sure that many other readers won't mind the points I just addressed.

[Andrew]

What a way to be like, hey, I am only representing one perspective.

[Craig]

Remember, we do that sometimes. I get it. Thanks, Mika. This one person, I couldn't understand that there it was just symbols that I didn't recognize as their name. But I did Google web dings. I'm not sure I Google image their profile picture. And it was the French gynecologist Samuel Jean Potse, a Seminole medical figure from over 100, maybe 200 years ago.

[Andrew]

So do we think it's actually him? Probably.

[Craig]

Probably not.

[Andrew]

Like, probably not. He's probably not posting.

[Craig]

Probably not posting.

[Andrew]

What if he's sort of a Carlisle Collins sort of figure?

[Craig]

Oh, okay. Maybe. Maybe a French vampire. This work is marketed as a novel, laid out as a screenplay, and requires the concentration of poetry. There are many such moments of intense illumination where two human beings see one another clearly in the story. I think it's a resounding success. My three stars in this case has to do with how much work the author demanded me to reach these meanings. I didn't always have the stamina, really. Did you find, as the book kind of clap. You just got to the point where, like, the book is collapsing. Did you find it a struggle or were you able to kind of go along with it, let it wash over you? The themes were strong enough.

[Andrew]

I was. I was able to do the second thing. And I do not, I could not for the life of me tell you why this book worked for me. But so often when books go, like, descend into gimmick or structural experimentation like

[Craig]

this, it doesn't sound like it's gonna be your bag all the time.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like, I very often don't like it because I look at it and I just see how sweaty it is. Like, so many books that are doing this. This. Are doing kind of a look at me sort of thing and this book.

[Craig]

He's back. Wah. Bob Dylan is back.

[Andrew]

It's not that. It's not that. It's not doing a look at me thing. It's just like it's all happening so seamlessly and continuing to throw out stuff like that.

[Craig]

The.

[Andrew]

The passage I read earlier about just like, aging and poverty and whatever. Like, it continues to leaven the structural experimentation with so many just like, very true, very universal sort of things.

[Craig]

Yep. Huh.

[Andrew]

This is him talking about observing Phoebe during the weird Nick Jr. Kid show passage. That is her life, it is doing a lot of very weird stuff. And then it keeps throwing in stuff like this. Watching her is like finding old letters of things you knew 30 years ago and haven't thought of since. How to feel, how to be yourself, not how to perform or act, how to be. And it talks a lot about this, this phase of childhood before you learn how society like expects you to, to be. Like when you're. When you're like just a little kid and you don't have a sense of skin color or what it means or like, you know, your different roles and like the roles of boys and girls or however it is that you want to break down the sort of roles that we all play, that we are all assumed to be able to play as members of society.

[Craig]

Yep, yep.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's always throwing in little bits like that, even when it's getting very like stylistically baroque.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

And that's not. It's not broke, but baroque like the, like Bach.

[Craig]

I get it. I think.

[Andrew]

I know you get it. I'm saying it for the benefit of the audience.

[Craig]

Yeah. I would not be, but I think that's.

[Andrew]

I think that's what it is. I think that's what keeps it smooth for me. It's like it keeps, keeps interjecting stuff that just. That feels so lived in and so real and so incisive that I, that I don't mind that like structurally the, the wheels are coming off and it's because he's designed the wheels to come off.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

At this point in the book. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

Yeah. I found two. This like, is lining up perfectly with two other reviews that I found. In the Asian Review of Books, Ken Smith said, you freely constructs discursive rambles that definitely conflate a simple image with, well, a finely rendered backstory. He then shares a passage about wu's father loving John Denver karaoke and like, yeah. How that paints an immigrant experience that you wouldn't expect. And then in the LA Review of Books, the reviewer said you take special care to present his themes of Asian American identity straightforwardly within the novels mind bending premise. In doing so, Use Writing adeptly straddles the border between storytelling and Asian American Studies seminar. Which goes. That goes on to continue praising it. That could sound like it's not praise. And that actually reminded me of like what was interesting about the sellout is that there are these, you know, to borrow review language from the other reviewer, kind of discursive rambling that was interesting and like that stuff doesn't Work when it's not interesting. If the. If the writing is good enough and the topics are compelling enough, then it kind of can get away with it. That's usually how this. These kinds of things go. And not enough people are. More people are striving to be that capable than actually are. Right. And they should strive. Why not? But not everybody can be. Kung Fu Guy, I suppose, is the

[Andrew]

demands reach should exceed his grasp, you know?

[Craig]

Yeah, sure. So I don't recall if there was a trial in the TV show. How does this. Is this kind of like the last thing that happens in the book?

[Andrew]

Yeah, you know, there are a couple of little epilogue denouement sort of things that happen, but the last thing, the last bit, the climax of the book is a trial. And Willis Wu is on trial for, like, stealing this car that may or may not exist from this police procedural, but is also on trial for a bunch of stuff that he's, like, put himself through in his own head.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yes. Good. Great.

[Andrew]

And the person who shows up to represent him is older brother. And Willis is like, where have you been? And he's like, I went to law school. You know, this. Like this. I've been. I decided to, like, break out of this. Of this dichotomy and go do something else.

[Craig]

I like that.

[Andrew]

And Wills is like, oh, yeah, okay, I like that. And then it does sort of take the form of. And I could see people looking at this and thinking, okay, this is just like sort of a preachy essay that he's decided to drop. But this is Turner, who is the black male cop from Black and White testifying about. About Willis Wu. Turner says he thinks he can't participate in this race dialogue because Asians haven't been persecuted as much as black people. Parentheses to you. Don't you need to take some responsibility for yourself for the categories you put us in, black and white? I mean, come on. Do you think you're the only one who's trapped?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Okay, Kung Fu Guy. It's just another form of generic Asian man. On the other hand, neither do you feel fully justified in claiming solidarity with other historically and currently oppressed groups that while your community's experience in the United States has included racism on the personal and institutional levels, including, but not limited to immigration quotas, actual federal legislation expressly excluding people who look like you from entering the country. There's a whole bit of the book that goes through all the legislation that discriminated against Asian Americans throughout history, both federal and state. In the story, if someone showed you my Picture on the street. How would you describe it? You might say an Asian fellow. Asian dude, Asian man. How many of you would say that's an American. What is it about an Asian man that makes him so hard to assimilate? And it is an interesting thing that it's talking about. For all the racial oppression and discrimination that black people in America have historically faced and still do face, I do think now, like, there's no question that they are American. And they are like their blackness and their American ness is all like innately wrapped up in their identity. I'm trying to distill the point that I think that you is making here where you'd see. Where you might see an Asian person and still, and still your first impulse would be like, you know, where are you from? Like, where are you actually from? Like, to have there be some mystery about like, the generation of immigrant that you would be or, you know, what your history would be. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

No, I know what you're talking about.

[Andrew]

I think that's what you is trying to get at with, with. With this stuff is like not denying that, you know, that, that, that white people are kind of on the top of this hierarchy, but trying to suss out the nuances of like, how American racism redounds against Asian people in a way that's like slightly different from the way that black people experience it.

[Craig]

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And. And how those limit. And how those differences can function as limitations on the way we talk about them or, or feel comfortable talk. Striking that I literally just read the sellout, which also ends in a trial where characters are allowed to like, expound upon the core themes of the book in, in language that out of context feels overly from a seminar. Right. Like it's borrowing academic. It's like very deliberately couched in well researched types of arguments and things like that.

[Andrew]

I think I remember from the. The Goodreads reviews is like, some people kind of responded poorly to like, yeah, obviously the author is very well read and very researched and wants. Wants us, the reader to know about all of that.

[Craig]

Well, and a lot of the same things are being said about this book where it's like, yeah, and he's also working in these. Like, is it. What's the. It's not epigrams when you're borrowing quotes inside of your own book from like, other things. Epigram. Epigraph.

[Andrew]

I don't know.

[Craig]

It's not epitaph.

[Andrew]

Epitaph is the tombstone, pepperoni and cheese Epigraph is a short Quotation, poem or fritton. I'm not going to read AI summaries on the podcast. Forgive me.

[Craig]

That's okay.

[Andrew]

Epigraph is short quotations, the saying epigraphs or saying at the beginning of a book or chapter intended to suggest its theme.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's my understanding there are a lot of those.

[Andrew]

But also inscriptions on building statues are

[Craig]

quite points from like, Bonnie Sue, Irving Goffman, Philip Choi. Those are a couple of folks shouted out in one of the reviews that like, that is also in the DNA of the cell. It's just kind of interesting that I was like, oh, that's neat that he liked that book. And then now as we talk about, like, oh, he liked that book. That's kind of cool.

[Andrew]

And then the end, like, the end of the book is that Willis Wu is guilty as charge, but then he and older brother decide to go for plan B, which is to kung fu fight their way out of the courtroom.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then Willis Wu gets to kind of live the rest of his life like, being a. Being a dad and like, having broken out of having finally realized what his mom was trying to talk to him about when she was like, sure, don't be Kung Fu Man. Like, be more than that. And he finally feels like he's seen beyond it and is living it. And that's where the book kind of leaves off.

[Craig]

Huh. That's neat.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, like, I. I enjoyed it. I don't have really anything else to say about it unless you have more, like, review stuff to. To ask me about. But no, just a few. It's. It is. I did not. I never, like, when I was reading it, I was never, like, man, this seems like the kind of book that normally I wouldn't like, but. But talking about it, talking about it now, like, I do, there is a lot of stuff that's just like, like formally, like, too cute or too clever.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Where the artifice of it is in the cleverness of it has, like, it's. It's just being foregrounded too much. And I get exasperated with that. But my experience of reading this book was not that way.

[Craig]

That's.

[Andrew]

And I say that, like, I've never watched the adaptation. I didn't really, you know, I hadn't. And even though we do this book podcast because books are smart and because we want to be smart boys, but I don't follow, like, book awards. So, like, I was not. This was not, like, on a list of books that I had been intending to read for a long time. Like, I Kind of just found it as I was casting around for short books to read on the show. I just kind of found it and I liked it. Yeah, man. What gives?

[Craig]

Weird. Nora in our Discord. Uh, oh, said I'm reading. Sorry, that was you. Was that an oh to the Discord?

[Andrew]

No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't oh to anything. I was just, like, implying that. That Nora is somebody who's like, oh, here they come.

[Craig]

Well, first we should thank Nora for helping run. Not helping to. For running our OD Awards every year. And this.

[Andrew]

People get into the Discord. If they didn't know.

[Craig]

Oh, they'd go to patreon.com overdue podcast on the Discord.

[Andrew]

Oh, cool. I'm glad that we're mentioning it. An hour and four minutes into our podcast.

[Craig]

Listen. We could be doing. We could do it at the top if you wanted, but Interior Chinatown was nominated for an OD for best audiobook read in 2025. I believe it lost to Dungeon crawler Carl maybe, which.

[Andrew]

Which did win for a book that Andrew would hate the most.

[Craig]

Yeah. So interesting.

[Andrew]

We're gonna have to put that on the list first.

[Craig]

Nora said, I'm reading Interior Chinatown now. I actually watched the TV show first. So surprised that the book is openly a movie show from the start. The TV show kind of. I was reading the summary of the episode and, like, Hulu is re. Like Becomes involved. Like, it is, like, revealed that a strange company named Hulu is taking part in the events of the series.

[Andrew]

Hulu just wants you to remember that you're watching a Hulu original series, because otherwise you will not remember.

[Craig]

But there is kind of a. Like a. I don't.

[Andrew]

I don't know what stage of that brand being absorbed into the Disney mothership we're at, but, like, it is. The experiment has failed at this point.

[Craig]

It seems like kind of the multiple realities are stacked a little differently on the show, which makes sense. As we talked about the beginning of this episode, Ides of March also said on the Discord, looking forward to Interior Chinatown. It was fantastic and captured so many of my own experiences and perspectives. So, yeah, that's. Seems like people are digging the book like you did, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Just good. Yeah.

[Craig]

Also, I think you might have liked it because it's about TV and you do like tv.

[Andrew]

I do like tv. I wasn't really thinking about. Well, I think if anything, I might

[Craig]

have just given you a way in to the. To the experimental stuff of all the

[Andrew]

TV shows that you could have picked. It is interesting to view it through the lens of a procedural, which the most sense, like, more so than a. Like a hangout sitcom or whatever, are going to churn through a bunch of very specific types of background performers. Like, yeah, we do. We need. You need everybody from like a corpse you see at like the beginning of the episode, or you only ever see, like, in the morgue or whatever.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

To like, here are like the first and second people who we're gonna talk to and then the third guy who actually did it and then the fourth person who, for a while you think they did it, but then you go back to the third person and it turns out that they did it the whole time. You're gonna need recurring characters. You're gonna need a lot of different types of guys to, like, build the scaffolding of a police procedural. So, yeah, okay. Yeah, I did. That did help.

[Craig]

Yeah. I mean, that's not a criticism.

[Andrew]

I think I'm not unique in having an affinity for this format. Like, it's famously a format that a lot of people have an affinity for.

[Craig]

Yeah. Almost like that's probably why it was important to the author and to the success of the novel. Smart guys here on Overdue. If you. Andrew thanks you. Thank you. Thanks you for telling me about this book.

[Andrew]

Thanks you for listening to me about this book.

[Craig]

Book. Everybody at home thanks you for listening. You can send us your emails, tell us about what TV show you think might make for a fun experimental novel,

[Andrew]

or just like, what's your favorite? What's your favorite non. Law and Order or Law and Order.

[Craig]

Some real roar nonsense.

[Andrew]

What's your favorite non roar procedural procedural show? You know, like, what are you watching right now that you're, like, liking? Do you like. Do you like the. The new Matlock show?

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, the new Mat.

[Andrew]

Which is more of a lawyer thing than a police thing.

[Craig]

Are they gonna bring back Colombo?

[Andrew]

I don't know if they're gonna bring back Colombo.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Do you like the Perry Mason with Matthew Reese in it that they cancel?

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Tell us, do you like. Do you like Bones? Do you like Castle potential? Do you like. I mean. Yeah, we don't talk about Castle. I feel like for some reason I feel like you pick Bones and Bones and Castle is like Beatles and Stones or like Kirk versus Picard. Like, you gotta. You gotta be on one team or the other one.

[Craig]

That's fair.

[Andrew]

That's fair.

[Craig]

Send us an email. Overdue pot.gmail.com. hit us up on social media with your memes at Overdue Pod. I don't know what memes? Just memes. Just meme with us. Whatever.

[Andrew]

Whatever memes you got.

[Craig]

Yeah, except none of the bad ones don't do.

[Andrew]

Come up with new ones. I don't know.

[Craig]

Make memes with us. Make memories with us. Thanks to Nick Lauren just who composed our theme music. Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue podcast.com is the TV, not the TV is the website. I'm reading, I'm reading, I'm reading a bunch of different things. So I was trying to find the March schedule because we haven't. Have we read it?

[Craig]

We might have read it last week. We can read it again, though.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'll let you read that again in a second. Anyway, overdue podcast.com is the Internet website that you type it in your browser and you go there and it has all the links and stuff, stuff that Craig said. The other website to know about. Patreon.com overduepod not only can you get access to our Discord server where people are always talking about this and that, but you get our current long read episode about Akira, the manga. You get experimental special collections, episodes about other things. Mostly 3D animated cartoons so far, but not exclusively.

[Craig]

We did that one.

[Andrew]

But we did do that one about Star Trek. Deep Space Nine.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

We're in a different, you know, in another world, we would keep recording that podcast for the whole thing. I don't see a universe in which that could possibly happen, but it's nice to think about. And dusty bookshelves, our newsletter ad, free feed of the show, all that stuff. Patreon.com overduepod Patrons do make the show possible in an extremely literal way. Thank you so much for supporting us. And if you're considering supporting us again. Patreon.com/overdue Pod Craig March. What?

[Craig]

Next Monday we will release Tuesdays with Maury by Mitch Albom. You can listen to it on whatever day you want. Don't let the book tell you what to do. 13 ways.

[Andrew]

If you've got Tuesdays with Maury, you probably should not listen. You should probably listen to it on another day.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

So it doesn't conflict.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah. Don't let us get into that issue on your calendar. 13 Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock by Mod Wolf will follow. Then Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Ultimate Collection Volume 1 by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, followed by mash novel about three army doctors by Richard Hooker. A lot of TV this month, actually.

[Andrew]

I like it. I'm into it.

[Craig]

Yeah. So. So I got it.

[Andrew]

Yeah. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to our show. And until we talk to you next time, please try to be happy.

[Chandler Garcia]

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