Ep 746 - Thirteen Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock, by Maud Woolf

Summary

Overdue Podcast Episode 746

Book: Thirteen Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock by Maud Woolf
Date: March 16, 2026
Hosts: Andrew and Craig

Episode Overview

This episode features Andrew and Craig exploring Maud Woolf’s debut speculative fiction novel, Thirteen Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock, shortlisted for the Arthur C. Clarke Award. The hosts dive into its high-concept premise—licensed “portraits” (clones) of a B-list celebrity tasked with decommissioning their own kind—while discussing themes of identity, selfhood, and the peculiar shapes modern sci-fi can take. The conversation retains Overdue's signature mix of wry humor, literary insight, and lively banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Author and Book Context

• Maud Woolf’s Background:
  • Scottish speculative writer, background in horror and sci-fi
  • Studied creative writing at University of Glasgow
  • Past jobs: bookseller, waitress, sign-holder, tour guide at a German dollhouse museum (06:07)
• Book Discovery:
  • Andrew found Thirteen Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock via a “best of 2025” list, showing up on the Arthur C. Clarke shortlist (05:00).
• Publisher & Press:
  • Published by Angry Robot
  • “There’s nothing much on this book—Maud is young, first book, limited web presence.” (05:38)

2. Core Premise and Worldbuilding

• Setting: Near-future “Bubble City”—a semi-futuristic city inspired by Futurama, colored by extremes of wealth, tech, and urban oddities (15:10, 66:01).
• Society: The rich can create “portraits” (automata/clones), essentially licensed clone-like selves with specific sub-programmed roles (12:20).
  • “Portraits” can mimic the original—look, act, and (sometimes) feel like their progenitor.
• Central Conflict:
  • Lulabelle Rock, a C-list celebrity, creates a 13th portrait to hunt down and decommission the remaining 12, prompted (ostensibly) by an upcoming Medea film adaptation’s PR needs (24:00).
  • Decommissioning clones is legal when performed by the owner; sending a clone to do it is a loophole—“Ain’t no rule says you can’t have one of your portraits retire the others!” (25:21).

3. Structure and Literary Devices

• Tarot-Inspired Structure:
  • Woolf based each of the 13 chapters/encounters on a Major Arcana tarot card.
  • The 13th portrait = Death card (11:09).
  • “Having this clear skeleton in place made everything else easy, and the words came faster than anything I’d written before.” — Maud Woolf (10:14).
• Tone:
  • Aims for dark comedy—exploring potentially grim themes with a levity that avoids making light of serious subjects, but offsetting existential heaviness (14:00).
• Literary Predecessors:
  • References to Orphan Black, Never Let Me Go, Dostoevsky’s The Double, and broader clone fiction traditions (16:28, 18:23).

4. Plot Breakdown and Notable Scenes

• Opening:
  • Thirteen (13th portrait) awakens, speaking to the “real” Lulabelle and learning her mission: kill all prior portraits (“You were fished out of a vat in my basement. I made them because I’m a busy, busy girl and there are only so many hours in a day.” — Lulabelle, 22:32).
  • Lulabelle Rock is “not meant to be a character who we think is morally awesome.” (23:41)
• Mission Rationale:
  • Ostensibly a PR stunt for a Medea adaptation, with extra implications around property/law and celebrity scarcity (24:00, 25:54).
  • Clones = property; disposing of one’s own is legal; decommissioning portraits upon death required by law after legal wrangling (26:46).
• Clone Individuality:
  • Portraits have initial programming; some with jobs (“social media Lulabelle,” “artist,” “tax reasons”), each distinct in habits and self-expression (31:22, 35:33).
  • Favorite ice-cream experiment: testing for emergent individuality (31:22).
  • Thirteen’s memories: “These are sepia, flat and scentless, like a photograph… I feel nothing at all towards them. These memories are like a dream.” — Narration (22:32, paraphrased).
• Encounters with Other Portraits:
  • Brunch portrait: Programmed to wait and sign autographs, mercy-killed after being abandoned (40:55).
  • Party portrait: Doomed to party eternally; welcomes being “relieved” of duty (44:28).
  • Polka-dot portrait: Trademark sartorial difference; “Are the clones their own unique people? The polka-dot thing.” (42:30).
  • The Artist: Created to test Lulabelle’s “latent talents”; ultimately, bad at everything, which Lulabelle finds comforting (34:29), and she becomes romantically involved with Thirteen.
• Programmed Purpose and Agency:
  • Clones tasked with single life-purpose, but can diverge. Some resist decommissioning, others welcome it; moral questions revolve around autonomy and programming (33:29, 36:21).
  • “The tragic thing about the artist… is she is just really bad at all the stuff that she tries to do… Lulibel finds this comforting… it means I did make all the right choices.” — Andrew (34:36)
• Escalation:
  • As Thirteen makes progress, surviving portraits warn each other, resulting in resistance: martial-arts-trained portrait fights back; mitosis (the company) intervenes in some cases (47:45).
  • Others, like the social media portrait, end their own lives (48:10).
• Narrative Rhythm:
  • Not every encounter is in-depth—rapid kills for some, extended interactions (like with the Artist) for others (48:30).
  • “[Thirteen is] meeting the same person over and over again, but… after that point, they all branch out a little bit.” — Andrew (36:21)
• Rejection of Mission:
  • Thirteen struggles with the morality of her mission, especially after becoming close to the Artist. She puts off killing her favorite, then plans a different future (53:25).

5. Major Reveal / Ending (Spoilers)

• Spoiler Alert (54:03)
  • Lulabelle Prime is not the original: The “real” Lulabelle is alive but terminally ill, hidden in a hospital, while the supposed “prime” is actually Portrait #1 seeking to preserve her own agency and the Lulabelle “brand.”
  • Legal and business complications arise: upon death, all portraits must be decommissioned. Stakes revolve around whether Lulabelle can remain as an “immortal business,” not just a person (57:35).
  • Thirteen and the Artist decide to leave and pursue individual happiness, letting “prime” keep up the celebrity act: “We’re gonna go off and be lesbian clones… You can be Lulabelle Rock.” (59:30)
  • Final gesture: They pantomime shooting each other with finger guns, which seems to break their programming (59:59).
  • “At least a happily-for-now sort of ending.” — Andrew (60:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You were fished out of a vat in my basement.”
  (Lulabelle to Thirteen, 22:32)

• “I made them because I’m a busy, busy girl and there are only so many hours in a day.”
  (Lulabelle, 22:32)

• “I feel nothing at all towards them. These memories are like a dream.”
  (Thirteen on inherited memories, 22:32)

• “Portraits belong to their creator—the original. Think of it like copyright.”
  (Legal world logic, 24:27)

• “How different are the clones from each other?”
  (Craig, recurring, e.g. 21:41, 35:30)

• “There's not going to be a portrait, 'I gotta rise up and take the place of my human counterpart.'”
  (Andrew on the book's tone toward clone tropes, 33:01)

• “Some of them are more accepting of the fact that they're being terminated… others push back.”
  (Andrew, 35:48)

• On romance:
  “We do find out that [the clones] can experience sexual pleasure… When Thirteen and the Artist start hooking up, which is just a weird—which is just strange. … There is, like, whether there’s some kind of, like, is it incest? … The book tries to make it less strange by never, ever countenancing how strange it is.”
  (Andrew, 38:37)

• “It's a bit like the Time Traveler's Wife… I should have a sign on my wall for how long since I last thought about that scene.”
  (Craig, 39:12)

• “Some people go by pretty quickly and some people take more time. Some people are set pieces and some people are not.”
  (Andrew on the structure, 48:30)

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Critical & Thematic Reflections

On the Book’s Humor and Tone

• Woolf intentionally keeps the tone light even amidst existential questions and violence (“wants to leaven darker implications with humor” 14:00).
• The hosts appreciate this balance: “Some subjects we can't approach any way but with humor… that's the way [Woolf] works through scary stuff.” (14:00)

On Originality and Sci-Fi

• High-concept, fast-paced, and doesn’t overstay its welcome—fits a trend in modern genre fiction both hosts appreciate (09:05).
• Discuss similarities/differences with other clone media: Orphan Black, Never Let Me Go, Cloud Atlas, and more (16:28).

On Individuality and Programming

• Core theme: How much agency and identity can a clone develop?
  • “They’re all the same up to a point, then all branch out a little bit.”
  • Programming is initially absolute, but lived experience and small divergences accumulate.

Narrative Critiques (drawn from Goodreads reviews and host discussion)

• Some listeners/readers may want more depth or world-building; the format leaves certain portraits two-dimensional, but this is both a strength (pacing, humor) and a limitation (49:52, 66:01).
• World remains more a backdrop than a deeply interrogated setting; major conflicts and stakes are personal, not societal (67:38).
• “[If] you explain more about that and it’s just midichlorians… who cares? … It didn’t bother me, but I understand it as a criticism of the book.” — Andrew (66:51)

Memorable Comparison with “Born Sexy Yesterday” Trope

• Briefly referenced in context of Thirteen’s “blank slate” personality, but sidestepped by the book’s focus (70:20).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---|---| | 03:12 | Show proper begins (after intro/ads) | | 05:00 | Book/author context, Arthur C. Clarke shortlist | | 10:09 | Structure & Tarot influences | | 12:06 | Book premise in detail (clones, legality, mission)| | 21:15 | Book plot summary/analysis begins| | 24:00 | Mission rationale: PR and clone law| | 28:11 | Tarot thematic guide| | 31:22 | Individuality test: ice-cream | | 34:29 | The Artist—failed hobbies & emotional ramifications | | 42:30 | “Polka-dot” portrait, individuality through quirks | | 47:45 | Martial-arts clone, resistance| | 54:03 | SPOILERS: Original clone switcheroo, ending| | 60:29 | Hosts’ reflections on structure & conclusion| | 63:20 | Goodreads three-star review segment | | 66:01 | Worldbuilding critiques & context| | 70:20 | Born Sexy Yesterday trope discussion | | 72:24 | Outro—thanks, upcoming books |

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Thirteen Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock is an inventive, brisk, darkly comic take on literary sci-fi clone tropes. While some readers may want more world depth, the book excels at using high concept and character-to-character encounters to meditate on selfhood, agency, and the absurdity of celebrity.
• According to the hosts, the book’s tonal balance—deadpan humor over heavy existential dread—lands well, though the narrative’s trimness leaves some potential explorations of clone individuality on the table.
• Good for readers who appreciate high-concept literary sci-fi and a fresh take on the classic “what makes you, you?” question.

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Sample Quote for the Episode’s Feel:

“We’re gonna go off and be lesbian clones… You can be Lulabelle Rock.”
— Andrew (paraphrasing the book’s ending, 59:30)

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Next time on Overdue:
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Ultimate Collection Vol. 1 by Kevin Eastman & Peter Laird. “I have never read Ninja Turtles comics prior to this. They are something else.” (74:13)

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[All references to timestamps approximate, based on transcript markup. Episode summary by Overdue super-fan (or a very clever AI). Cowabunga, and try to be happy!]

Transcript

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

This is a Headgum podcast. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy

[Craig]

of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy

[Andrew]

away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig. And Craig and Craig and Craig and Craig. Craig and Craig and Craig and Craig and Craig and Craig and Craig and Craig.

[Andrew]

There's a lot of. There are. I was gonna say there are a lot of you here today. That I just brought one of me.

[Craig]

But we just have the one microphone. We just have the one microphone. We're just trying to all talk at the same time. You can't hear me right now because I'm not by the microphone. But there's 13 of us.

[Andrew]

We could use the magic of editing to make it sound like there's 13 of you.

[Craig]

That would be pretty cool.

[Andrew]

Yeah, there's only one of me, but I am a copy of myself that the regular Andrew made so that he could go do other stuff.

[Craig]

Was wondering if something was different today.

[Andrew]

Yes. Did you see that my hands are totally smooth and I have no lines or fingerprints.

[Craig]

I hadn't noticed that because we don't normally show each other our hands before.

[Andrew]

I mean, I think maybe we need to start doing a security check. I don't think. I don't think our OPSEC is very good. We're. We could get infiltrated by portraits at any time.

[Craig]

Oh dear. I am excited to learn more about this on our book podcast where each week one of us reads a book and tells the other person about it. Andrew, you read a book you've never read before for the show. What is it called? And I think we've alluded to some of its core premise.

[Andrew]

It's called 13 Ways to Kill Lulu Bell Rock. It's by Mod Wolf. It's her debut novel. I think I found it on a five books.com best of 2025 list.

[Craig]

It's specifically a list shouting out the Arthur C. Clark short list. So we can, we can talk about that in a little bit because I think that's notable.

[Andrew]

But yeah, it's one of. One of those Books I found on a Internet book list. And I thought the. Thought the premise was neat and. Yeah. Has anybody else other than me and these books list people read this? I'm not sure, but I think you just kept saying how impossible it was to find any of that. There's not.

[Craig]

There's nothing much on this book. Well, Maude is young enough that, like, this is her first book. There's not much on her website. She's had some stories published in a couple of magazines.

[Andrew]

People don't have websites anymore.

[Craig]

She does have one.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But it's pretty bare bones. There's not Wikipedia out there. I think she's pretty recently out of school.

[Andrew]

What school? Which kind of school?

[Craig]

I know she got her creative writing master's at University of Glasgow. She's a Scottish speculative writer. She has worked as a bookseller, a waitress, a sign holder, and a tour guide at a German dollhouse museum.

[Andrew]

Now, when. When we say sign holder, are we talking about one of the people with the arrow signs that are flipping them in the street?

[Craig]

I hope so.

[Andrew]

Are you just. You just have, like, a sandwich board

[Craig]

or just, like, a sign? If you're like the coyote in Looney

[Andrew]

Tunes, I feel like people who are in that business probably have different names for each kind of specific sign.

[Craig]

Yeah. Are you a spinny and pointer?

[Andrew]

Probably. There's a lot of beef between the different groups.

[Craig]

Yeah. Oh, man,

[Andrew]

those spinny arrow guys are all sizzle. They don't know how to. How are people gonna read your sign if you're spinning around all the time? Genius.

[Craig]

You placard poppers. So I got that information from her publisher page on Angry Robot, which is the publisher of this book.

[Andrew]

Oh, yes. J.J. abrams Production Company.

[Craig]

No, that's it. What kind of robot is that?

[Andrew]

I think that's a bad robot.

[Craig]

Bad robot. Okay. You can be angry and good. I strive to be angry and good.

[Andrew]

Yeah, there's. There's an alternate D and D alignment chart, I think.

[Craig]

Huh. Mod Wolf is good on it. This is from that bio. Mod Wolf is a Scottish speculative writer with a particular focus on horror and science fiction. Her work has appeared in a variety of online magazines, including Metaphorosis magazine, where her short story the Stranding was selected to appear in the best of metaphorosis 2020. I just listed all the jobs I got from that bio. When not exploring Glasgow's labyrinthine system of abandoned tunnels, she spends most of her free time watching old Hollywood films and attempting to knit. Good for her. So, yes, Andrew found this on the most recent shortlist for the Arthur C. Clarke Award. It is the UK's, like, big sci Fi Novel award every year. I was just scanning through the list to see which recent authors we've covered. We've read Nana Kwame, Aja Brenya before. Oh, no, we read. Did we read Changing All Stars? Andrew, is that a book you read? It's come up before.

[Andrew]

I don't think we've read it.

[Craig]

Okay, maybe we've. Maybe we've read some other.

[Andrew]

You have, like, a factual question about our own podcast for me that you asked me live on the air.

[Craig]

Oh, no, you read. You read Frost Friday Black. I know for sure. Yes. Other. They go back on this list that I had here. Colson Whitehead, Kaz, Asia Guru, a few other folks that I know a lot

[Andrew]

of friends of the show on this list.

[Craig]

Becky Chambers, friend of the show. Nadia Corafor Emily St. John Mandel. Like, lots of folks.

[Andrew]

So I would probably lump this in, honestly. I don't think it's. It's definitely not doing a Becky Chambers thing, but it is a. I have found myself gravitating toward a type of book when I'm just looking for stuff to read, and it's just like, give me. Give me something that's not. Give me something high concept that's got like a couple neat ideas, doesn't overstay. It's welcome. And then we're out.

[Craig]

That. Is that how you felt about the Ministry of Time? Also on this short list for 2025,

[Andrew]

I thought that that one did overstay. It's welcome a little bit, but.

[Craig]

Right. Okay.

[Andrew]

But yes, I did. Like, there are. There are a lot of things about the con, like the concepts of how time travel works in that book that are interesting.

[Craig]

Okay, cool.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So, yeah, listen to the episode about it. No, I know I was over to you podcast. I got that one mixed up with. I get that one mixed up with Time War in my head, which I think you liked more than Ministry.

[Andrew]

I did like. I did like more was all is a weirder book. But yeah.

[Craig]

So she did write an essay for track of words.com about tarot cards, which I think are a part of this book, sort of. Right.

[Andrew]

Yeah. We could talk about you. You read me this and I'll find.

[Craig]

She says that in high school she suffered a terrible ankle fracture and wound up. It was a school that she had like, just transferred to and suffered this horrific ankle fracture and then kind of like to pass the time, fell into tarot. Did not think that she would fall into it because she's Not a particularly spiritual person, but really liked the storytelling components of Tarot. And she wrote this interesting article in 2024 about using the classic Celtic spread dealing method to help her beat writer's block. She says, when I came to writing my first novel, I used Tarot as both inspiration and as a way of structuring the story. I knew my protagonist would be the last clone of a series created to kill her predecessors. The 13th card in the major arcana was Death. Working backwards from that, I decided each chapter should be inspired by a different card. For 13 clones, 13 chapters, 13 cards. Having this clear skeleton in place made everything else easy. And the words come faster than anything I'd written before.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think structurally it's interesting at the end. Like at the end, her. She's got a couple of characters who are lampshading the. The thing where one of them is, one of them says, but there's more than 13 cards. Look, there's the tower and the devil and the sun. How do they fit? I stare at them for a moment, then I scrub a hand over my face. I don't know. I didn't even think about that. Do you think there's more to come? That did just strike me as a funny way to be. Like, yeah, I found this useful and interesting, but like, I want to talk about. I don't, I don't want the other implications of it. I'm not doing the whole thing.

[Craig]

Okay, can you give me like, before I dive into other research on the book itself, Andrew, can you give me like a one or two sentence, what is the book? Because I don't think we've really clarified for folks listening, like, what is 13 Ways to Kill Lulu Bell Rock? Like, what is.

[Andrew]

Is a shortish sci fi ish novel. We could talk about how much world building there is. Know that Google and Microsoft Excel both apparently still exist.

[Craig]

Okay, great.

[Andrew]

Like, it is our world. Somebody does drive like a 1985 like model of a real car. But there's also a bunch of other stuff going on. But there are people. The rich, rich and powerful people can make licensed clones of themselves. Not quite clones of themselves, but like automata called portraits. Okay, who, Who The. The real ones, the brand name portraits look pretty much like you and can fool somebody who doesn't know what they're looking for. But you make some portraits who can go like, Lulavel Rock is a celebrity, a movie star who creates portraits to do all kinds of stuff for her that she does not have time to do. She says, okay, but the time has come to retire many of these portraits who are out running around. And so she has created a new portrait, a 13th portrait to go. And. And this portraits only task is to go and get rid of all the other ones.

[Craig]

All right, Cool. All right. Yeah, I wanted to set that up before I just start like, quoting things from the interview I found with her or talking about clothes so that people know what.

[Andrew]

Yes,

[Craig]

she did say in a Fantasy Hive interview that she sounds like you

[Andrew]

found lots of stuff.

[Craig]

I found this interview and then I found reviews and then I did some extra digging. Okay. She talks about the original title for the book. The working title was 13 Suicides of Lulabelle Rock. She says she's glad that she changed that because it might set readers off on the wrong foot.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, she. For sure.

[Craig]

She was. She says she was trying to thread the needle with tone, not making light of serious subject matter, but didn't want to make people feel miserable either. And she thinks that there are some subjects that we can't approach anyway, other than humor. And that's just the way that she kind of works through scary stuff. So she is aware that, like, somebody making a version of themselves to kill other versions of themselves has some pretty dark implications. And I'm interested to hear how dark it actually feels in practice because it seems like she is trying to leaven that a little bit. Right. Or bring levity to it is probably the better word that I could have.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Leave. Yeah. Leing something else. I know you're just thinking about how people in Discord.

[Craig]

I know.

[Andrew]

It was cool.

[Craig]

I said it out loud and then I was like, oh, no, that's. That's Andrew's word.

[Andrew]

No, I wasn't. I wasn't going to say that you were biting my style. But you are.

[Craig]

Sorry, that. Excuse me. That was the. That was the Craig I made that only bites people's style that I got rid of him.

[Andrew]

Wow. You should have made that guy.

[Craig]

I. I should not have made him. I don't know why you shouldn't have made.

[Andrew]

Should have made that guy.

[Craig]

It's weird. He bites my style all the time.

[Andrew]

This patreon.com overdue5 join the Discord to

[Craig]

give us compliments that will make the show weird. She also. It is set in Bubble City. I can't wait to learn more about Bubble City. She says she grew up in the country and believe it or not, a lot of my childhood ideas about what a city looked like were based on watching episodes of Futurama, which I just thought was Kind of neat.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean that I do see that in Bubble City you get a. You get a less clear picture of Bubble City than maybe you would like. You would think you might like. I. Yeah, okay.

[Craig]

But she said, I lived in cities for a long time now. I still kind of find them baffling in their extremes. Insane wealth and cutting edge technology right next to all the noise and mess and poverty. The brighter the lights, the deeper the shadows. And I wanted Bubble City to be as shiny as possible, which is kind of neat. I'll save some quotes on the clones, I suppose, but mostly her talking about just kind of thinking about different versions of herself coming out of university. And then I just did a quick rundown on clones. We've read books about clones before. Yeah, Cloud Atlas is one of them. Never Let Me Go is another. We've had them in various sci fi short story collections.

[Andrew]

Have we ever been attacked by clones?

[Craig]

I mean, I have. I owned that on dvd. I have been attacked by the clones in the Clone Wars. Did you know that the word comes from 1903? A US Department of Agricultural plant scientist said, named Herbert Weber was talking about taking parts of plants and, you know, cutting them off and then using them to reproduce the plant asexually. Right, right. Propagating them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we call that a cutting. There is already a word for that, but.

[Craig]

Okay, well, he wanted to come up with a name for the new plant that like. And he came up with clone originally from the Greek word for literally what you just said K, L, O, N. And then eventually he added. He used the C and then people added the E later. And then for a few years, people, like writers, I don't know, to make clear the spelling so that people don't just say clown. I think because it was, okay, Greek, supposed to be clone. People use it as an agricultural term for a while and then it starts making its way into sci fi. We've talked about Brave New World a long time ago on the show, but they don't use the word clone in that. But there is cloning going on and all sorts of store. And then it's like a big deal in the 90s because they clone that sheep.

[Andrew]

That sheep.

[Craig]

Dolly the sheep. I did not realize why. Why that was so important. I looked it up. It's not. It's that they took the nucleus from an adult cell. Like there had been almost 100 years of like, dividing embryonic cells in amphibians and having them create two creatures that both would mature. But it was the first time that they did Nuclear transfer in a mammal. Just pretty cool.

[Andrew]

The sheep like died in like 2006 or 7, right? Like it didn't live forever, but sheep don't live forever. This is a sheep.

[Craig]

And I did go back. I trying to find the first story that maybe has a clone in it or something. An early one I found it's not quite a clone, but something that gets at the themes we often encounter in clones is an 1846 novella by Dostoevsky called the Double. Where a guy just wakes up one day and there's another dude walking around who looks exactly like him who starts living his life. And at first they're friends, but then it causes problems.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And then how real is it? Is it a psychosis thing? Who knows? But it's like what if there was a clone of you out there doing stuff?

[Andrew]

I love sci fi stories. And this, this happens a lot where somebody just wakes up and it's like suddenly this thing happened.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's fun.

[Andrew]

It's everything from, from Gregor Samsa to Rise of Skywalker. Just like, Just like suddenly something happened and now somebody. Now everybody has a nobody. Everybody has a deal with it.

[Craig]

Yeah. Those are both stories. You're right. Those are both stories.

[Andrew]

Those are both stories.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Where suddenly something happens for some reason.

[Craig]

Yeah. And then grander Samsa yelled no. As he turned into a bug. That's what I got. Andrew. There are maybe there's some other things we talk about when we get into the book, but. Clones. Clones.

[Andrew]

Clones.

[Craig]

You ready to talk about the book?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You're not allowed to take a break.

[Andrew]

Are you going to send all your clones out of the room? Are they going to stay in here?

[Craig]

They're going to listen to the break and then they're going to leave. They got stuff to do.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

The one of them is going to come to your house and just do all of the stuff that you do to bug you. That's that. He told me that's his whole purpose. I didn't do that. That wasn't what I meant to do when I made it.

[Andrew]

You need to get your clones under control.

[Craig]

They're attacking me on the daily. See you on the other side.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

Ear. All right, that's the door closing. All the clones are gone. Andrew, you could just tell me this book about clones. None of them will be offended.

[Andrew]

Good. Yeah. I wouldn't have to be politically correct in front of the clones. Have 12. 12 people all get mad at me for the same reason at the same time. No, thanks.

[Craig]

One of them was telling me he really likes the movie Multiplicity, and the rest of them were like, no, that's bad. We don't watch that movie anymore.

[Andrew]

That's interesting because, like, how different. How different are the clones from each other is a question that this book comes back to a bunch of times.

[Craig]

I can't wait to hear about it. Tell me more.

[Andrew]

So we open with this point of view character who we don't really know who she is. She's talking to Lula Bell Rock, movie star, who is sitting in a white terry cloth bathrobe and drinking a very pink drink, and has informed her that her purpose is to go and to kill all the other clones of Lula Bell Rock that exists. And we. And we gather gradually through this conversation that we are in the head of also a clone, somebody who is, is and is not Lula Bell Rock herself.

[Craig]

And that is. Seems like a fresh clone. Like, right out of the oven.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Oh, like. Yeah, like right. Right out the. Right out the oven.

[Craig]

Okay, okay.

[Andrew]

Just beneath these memories are others. And these are. She's talked about some memories of things that she had just experienced, like sitting and talking to the other Lulibelle Rock and her getting a pink drop of her pink drink on her white robe. These memories are in color. But then she's got other memories floating around in there. And she says, beneath these memories are others. And these are sepia, flat and scentless, like a photograph. These memories are far vaster. They span for 30 years, a lifetime supply. I see two faces. I can put names to them. One of them is Mum, the other is Daddy. I feel nothing at all towards them. These memories are like a dream. I grew up, I say carefully, watching Lulibelle for confirmation, in the countryside. That's why I bought this place, the estate, you know. Yes, she says, but you must try not to think like that. You'll only confuse yourself. I grew up in the countryside. You were fished out of a vat in my basement. What else? Okay, I made them because I'm a busy, busy girl and there are only so many hours in a Day I made them because I'm only one person and I can only do so much. I can only give the world so much. So Lubel Rock is not like, meant to be a character who we think is like, morally awesome.

[Craig]

Great. Okay, good. Glad to get that out of the way.

[Andrew]

And so this. This new clone that we were just meeting has been. Is being sent out in the world to retire all the other ones. The reason that she is given for why she's doing this is there is an adaptation of Medea coming. Really? Yes.

[Craig]

Always. Always Medea.

[Andrew]

Always Madea. That Lulabell Rock is in.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And the movie is not going to be great, but if there's a bunch of weird publicity about all of her clones getting killed in the media, it'll make people more forgiving of and interested in the movie.

[Craig]

Oh my God.

[Andrew]

So it's framed as a PR stunt

[Craig]

for her film, is it? Are you allowed to kill clones if you.

[Andrew]

Okay. Portraits belong to their creator, the original. Think of it like copyright. Lulibelle has authorized you to dispose of the other portraits. This is allowed. If you decommission a portrait of someone else, that is illegal destruction of property. If you kill a person that is murdered, don't try and do either of these things.

[Craig]

Huh?

[Andrew]

This is somebody who's referred to through most of the book as the Viking because he is a big guy who is bald and has a big beard. And then later in the book, it turns out that his name is Craig.

[Craig]

Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? He's one of my clones. In the book,

[Andrew]

the Vikings are giving her some supplemental advice as he puts her in a self driving car and sends her out to bubble city to where all the clones are living.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

The portraits are living to try and decommission them. So that's our setup.

[Craig]

Okay. Okay. So she is allowed to have her portrait. Go and get rid of the other ones.

[Andrew]

Technically, yes.

[Craig]

Technically.

[Andrew]

There's a company called Mitosis that's. Which is. Which is a funny name for a cloning company that apparently handles all this stuff and they gotta deal with like unauthorized clones that people made and just like weird celebrities that people tried to build in their. In their garage.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

We only get little tiny glimpses of what goes on at Mitosis. But yeah, you get the sense that Lulabelle is taking advantage of a loophole that was maybe not like it's a. It's an airbud. Ain't no rule says situation. Ain't no rule says you can. You can't have One of your clones. Get rid of all your other clones. Okay. Because you could get rid of your portraits if you wanted.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And so. And so, you know, you just send another portrait to do it, then you're still basically doing it.

[Craig]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew]

Yourself. There's another. There's a reference to another bit of litigation later where someone had made a bunch of portraits of himself, like some musician, and then had left all of his money to them in his will.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

And his family sued to get the money back from all the clones of him that had been made. And so because of that, there is a law where when the original person dies, all the portraits have to be decommissioned. Yeah. That could be removed from. Removed from the populace.

[Craig]

Great. Okay.

[Andrew]

So the Viking has put Lulibelle in a car. He sent her out to Bubble City. She stops to pick up a weird goth hitchhiker who is going to the city to study magic. We don't hear a lot more about magic or whether it's actually real.

[Craig]

And it's not like, it's not like doing magic.

[Andrew]

No, he's like, study. He's studying with some. Some magician guy. And we. We run into this hitchhiker guide later, and he's like, yeah, my. My master, who I'm studying magic under, is such a cool guy. And he also wants to talk about his divorce all the time.

[Craig]

Huh. Okay.

[Andrew]

But he gives Lulabelle a deck of tarot cards, and she doesn't know anything about tarot cards. But this is where the. The thematic through line of, like, I'm the 13th clone. I'm Death. It's my job to go and kill all the other ones. Like, not all the other ones map neatly to a. A specific character from the major arcana. Like, there. There's one called the Artist who ends up being a major character. There are a couple others, but I

[Craig]

would imagine you can't do that for everyone.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that. That's where the, like, the other others are more just, like, thematic and not, like, sure, sure. This one is literally an empress, or what can you.

[Craig]

Like, I know you were. You were talking about, like, the sepia tone stuff, like, how much of a person is 13? Like, as this is getting going, like, is it. I'm. There's just so many, like, sci fi stories. Was, like, we just made this person, and they're basically a baby. Like, it's not basically a baby.

[Andrew]

She does. She does remember, like, when she is in a. Like, she goes to see Lulibelle's agent in the city.

[Craig]

Okay. Point.

[Andrew]

And she talks about

[Craig]

It's.

[Andrew]

It's a thing where if she, like, stops to think about it, it gets kind of weird. But if she just kind of lets her body and muscle memory go on autopilot, like, she remembers, you know, where. How like get into the building and where the room is and like, all that. All that stuff is still in there somewhere.

[Craig]

It's giving me, like, the scenes and I don't know, like, I was thinking about severance, which is like, there's like the kind of the recent high profile sci fi, like, you know, what if a business allowed you to do something weird to yourself story. But it's like when all the severed folks are, like, sitting around wondering about, like, why do I just think about, like, why do they know the words that they know? Why do they know what ocean that one is?

[Andrew]

Like, why do they know what driving a car is?

[Craig]

Yeah,

[Andrew]

why would that be? Why would that be in there? But no, why is the part of my brain that stores the car driving and, like, how to eat applesauce memories separate from the one who remembers, like, what my dad looks like?

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, but. But this. This kind of solves that a little bit. Because it is supposed to be a copy of.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like her. Her memories are clearly, like, partitioned off. Not. Not even partitioned off. There. There's. They're just different in quality.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Then the memories that she has inherited from the real Lulibel, like, she. That information is in there, but it is in there without necessarily, like, the emotional component of it.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's information.

[Andrew]

Like, she talks, you know, she talks about remembering her mom and dad, but not feeling anything about either of them. Like, the facts are in there, but the implications of the facts are not always cool. But yeah, like, once she, you know, once she's out and she's her own person, she. She can be an individual in some ways. Actually, that. So the. The Viking, one of the first. He does some. He's kind of working behind the scenes to do some stuff that we'll maybe talk about. There's a big.

[Craig]

I was wondering.

[Andrew]

There's a big twist at the end that I'm debating whether we can talk around or not. Okay. But one thing that he does with new portraits who are being sent out is there's like a diner that exists, like, halfway between where Lulabelle lives and Bubble City. And he has them stop there and get one of three, like, each of the three flavors of ice cream that they serve. And. And he wants them to tell him which one is their favorite.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And yeah, it's a. Like, the questions that we're dealing with throughout the book repeatedly are like, each portrait, when they come out, when they're fresh for like 45 minutes, that's when you can kind of program their instructions into them.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

So Lula Bell has a portrait who is there to run her social media. There is one portrait who was created, quote, for tax reasons, and her programming was simply existing.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

There is one. The artist who I talked about. And the artist is a. Is a fun character. Lulibel, of course, successful movie star. But she is. She is told this artist portrait, go and just try a bunch of stuff like try to, Try to paint, try to play the piano, try to knit, try to cook, try to learn how to do all this stuff. And if you're good at any of it, tell me about it. Because that means I have, like a hidden talent for stuff that I don't

[Craig]

know about that's kind of neat.

[Andrew]

And it is kind of neat. And it is one thing that I might. I might try to have a clone do is just like the hobby clone. Yeah, hobby clone tells me how successful or frustrating I will find certain new hobby.

[Craig]

I don't think I've thought about how you could. Like, this is a different. I don't think I've heard of a type of clone like this before where you can kind of like give them a core function and they.

[Andrew]

Because the clone, the clone. Clones are not people really. And they don't all. Like, it's not natural to them or it's not their default state to consider themselves people. There's not a lot of.

[Craig]

There's not going to be a port.

[Andrew]

I gotta rise up and take the place of my human. My human counterpart.

[Craig]

Sure. Yeah. It's just interesting to think about using clones to imagine parts like versions of yourself as opposed to, like, propagate yourself like or. And even that one is different from what you've. Like, Lulabelle is doing, which is like, well, I don't want to do that stuff. You do my social media.

[Andrew]

Yeah. There is one clone who Lulibelle hates, says the notes that say, terminate with extreme prejudice against this one because she uses Lulabelle's real name and has her real nose and doesn't dye her hair and married her, like, high school sweetheart.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

It's the life not lived.

[Craig]

Okay. Yeah, that's kind of neat.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, there, there. There are. There are a bunch of different ones. There's a bunch of different clones. Not all of them. We spend a ton of Time with, like, not everybody gets fleshed out the way that the artist gets fleshed out. The tragic thing about the artist that is so sad to me is that she is just really bad at all the stuff that she tries to do. She's like, bad at art. She's bad at making a cocktail. She tries to cook them both steak, and it's like, too hot and overdone on the outside and cold on the inside. And it's clear. It's clear that this is the case from, like, the moment that we meet this character.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

This artist is that she is just. She.

[Craig]

She.

[Andrew]

Lulibel also finds this comforting in a way, because it means, oh, hey, I did make all the right choices.

[Craig]

I was.

[Andrew]

I wasn't meant to be some kind of, like, piano prodigy because my. My hobby clone is bad at all the hobbies that I'm asking her to do.

[Craig]

Oh, but tell me what, Is there anything that important that happens from that ice cream scene or is that just kind of like a preference check?

[Andrew]

It's a. It's just like. It's just planting a seed. It is. You know, we. We see that this Lulabelle does have a preference for a certain kind of ice cream. And she's not like, inheriting it from.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Like Lulibelle Prime. And so this is where. This is where we get into, like, how. How are each of these portraits gonna be different from each other? How are they gonna be the same? Like, what. What do they have in common? Like the. The artist asks. Asks 13, I guess we'll call her for. For lack of a better.

[Craig]

That's what all the reviews call her. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Asks her like, how she. Like what she likes to eat or like how she takes her steak or whatever. And. And 13 is kind of snaps at her like, you know how. You know what? You know how I like it.

[Craig]

Like you.

[Andrew]

We're the same person.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

But, you know, they have different. Some of them are more accepting of. Of the fact that they are being terminated. Like, most of them have been given a heads up before it happens. Others push back a little bit. It's a. Yeah, you're meeting the same person over and over again, but you are sort of meeting different. Not. Not just diff. Slightly different aspects of each person, but like, they're the same up to a point. And then after that point, they're allowed to all. They all. They're all branch out a little bit.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

And so what's. What's. What's different? What's the same?

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, it's reminding me of. I'm fairly certain I've talked about this play on the podcast before. There's a play by Carol Churchill called A Number that is about cloning. It's from, like, 20 years ago, I think, where a guy cloned his son. And it opens with the son being like, hey, I saw a clone of me on the street. Like, that's weird, dad. And it has. That guy has to learn that he himself is a clone. And then the first clone is a really angry clone. And then there's a clone at the end who's just, like. Who is perfectly fine that he's a clone and never met this dad until right this moment. He has a perfectly happy life, but he's boring as all hell, kind of stinks. And it's just. It's a very fascinating play, but it is that kind of. That is also interrogating, like, okay, they were the same. And then the flowchart, right. Happens. And then, like, so what. What person is on the other side of XYZ experience or having knowledge about themselves or not? So is she, like, stoked to kill these people? Does she.

[Andrew]

She's not. She's not stoked to kill them. She is.

[Craig]

Does she have to, like, kill them kill them? She has to kill that.

[Andrew]

Okay, she shoots them dead with a gun. And. And the, like, portraits are not supposed. They're not meant to be. They're not like Cylons. They're not perfect, like, 100 accurate clones of. Of a person with.

[Craig]

Oh, interesting.

[Andrew]

So they do, like the. The joke I made at the beginning of the episode. Like, they do not have, like, fingerprints or. Or, like, lines on their hands. They're all very. They're all very smooth. Oh, and we do. I do think, though, that they are fully functional, like Lieutenant Commander Data from Star Trek the Next Generation, and they can experience sexual pleasure. Oh, we do find this out when thirteen and the artists start hooking up, which is just a weird. Which is just strange.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And the book. The book tries to make it less strange by never, ever countenancing how strange it is. There is, like, whether there's some kind of, like, is it incest?

[Craig]

So I should have a sign. I should have a sign on the side of my room of over here. That's, like, days since I last thought about that scene in the Time Traveler's Wife where the guy, like, travels back in time and, like, plays with himself. And I'm. I gotta wipe it back to zero because that is exactly how many.

[Andrew]

What was the number before it was

[Craig]

like four months, I think. Whoa.

[Andrew]

That's pretty long.

[Craig]

I don't think about it all the time, but it's like, at least once a year.

[Andrew]

When you do think about it, though, I mean, you just lost the game.

[Craig]

It's one of the things I think. One of the three things I think about in that book.

[Andrew]

What are the other two?

[Craig]

That there's, like, a car thing and that it's. It. That it's weird that he married that girl and that she knew him and that he knew her at all ages and that she still marries him and.

[Andrew]

Okay, so it does.

[Craig]

The core premise isn't.

[Andrew]

That's a Twilight. That's a Twilight thing, I guess.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's a core premise problem I have with that book.

[Andrew]

Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna marry that baby a little bit.

[Craig]

Little bit. A little bit. But anyway, we were talking about how she feels about killing them. She shoots them dead with a gun. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, it's for. For several of them, it is clearly a mercy to be killing them. Like, there's one.

[Craig]

Are they in such a bad way?

[Andrew]

It's some of them.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

It depends like, it is it. The. The book is funny. And one. Like, the first clone who is killed, she's. She's given a list of clones in a specific order, which we find was just. Because, like, that was the most efficient route to. To use to get to all of them.

[Craig]

Like, on MapQuest.

[Andrew]

There wasn't. Yeah. Like, there wasn't any deeper meaning to the order in which they were all being killed. It was just. This is. Yeah, this is. We're like a. We're like, ups, like, trying to calculate the route with the fewest left turns in it.

[Craig]

Right.

[Andrew]

To save gas. The first one was a clone that Lulibel created because she had made brunch plans with friends and didn't want to go.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

And this portrait was programmed to wait to be picked up somewhere, and she was never picked up somewhere. So she's just been sitting. Oh, God, for, like, days and signing autographs for people who keep coming up to her and being like, oh, is that Lulibel, rock movie star? And so she just pulls up to that one and just, like, shoots her and drives away. And then this. Then the second one is, like, she is. There are so. There's, like, other characters who are not Lulibel or a clone of Lulibelle kind of flit in and out of the story, and they're not. They're mostly not a big deal. Like, you get the Hitchhiker guy who gives her the tarot cards. You get a paparazzi guy who is going around trying to take pictures of Lulibelle Rock. And Lulabelle uses him a couple of times to get information on where, like, Lulibelle or a portrait of Lulibelle is mostly just the portrait of Lulibelle. And there's a woman who runs, like, a fashion shop. Fashion shop. That's what they call them, right? The fashion. They like to go to the fashion shop. She runs a clothing store. She's asleep. Runs a clothing store.

[Craig]

Yeah. The dress shoppie. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Thirteen gets from this paparazzo guy that this portrait of Lulibelle has dropped something off at this. At this tailor's and is gonna come back and get a. Later.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And so 13 goes in there and talks to the person who runs the shop and, like, gets a. Gets a fashion makeover. And she just, like. She really wants to. She really has. She really wants this person to, like, be impressed with her. She wants the. The. The. The fashionista who's running this. This fashion shop to. To approve of her for some reason. But she. Yeah, she gets dressed up, and then the Lulibelle who she's waiting for comes in and in. In the notes, Lulabelle prime has scrawled something about polka dots that didn't make any sense. And now 13 sees this portrait of Lulabelle, and she's wearing, like, a. Like a bandana or something with polka dots on it. And 13 is like, oh, that looks bad. But this Lula Bell likes it, and that's her thing. She's like, I wear. I wear polka dots even though regular Lulabelle doesn't want me to do it. This is. This is how we're exploring the question of, like, do the clone Are the clones their own unique people? Polka dot. The polka dot thing. And Thirteen was talking with the. With the person who runs the fashion shop and getting kind of advice from her about how to. How to interact with people and just, like, being kind is good. And so she has decided she is not going to just pop every one of the portraits she meets, but is going to try and talk to them and put them at ease in some way before she does it.

[Craig]

Okay. A compassionate death.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Okay. So this one doesn't see it coming. The first one clearly saw the one who was just, like, sitting at the bus stop for days. It was a mercy to take her out. There's one Lula Belle who is just. Who is like Eddie Murphy's girl in Eddie Murphy's song Party all the time.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But she doesn't. She doesn't like to party all the time. She's just been kind of programmed to party all the time. Party all the time. Party all the time.

[Craig]

Yeah. Party all the time.

[Andrew]

She parties all the time.

[Craig]

She parties all the time.

[Andrew]

And she definitely wants to die. Like, she thinks that. She thinks 13, like, she is. She.

[Craig]

She's. She's the Barbie, like, meme. Like, you guys ever think about dying?

[Andrew]

She's thinks that 13 has been sent to relieve her. To, like, relieve her of her life of constant partying. And 13 is like, no, I'm not here. I'm not here to replace you. And. And party. Lulibel gets kind of sad about it, and then 13 is like, I'm here to kill you and party. Lulu Bell's like, oh, you should have said something like that sounds great.

[Craig]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Andrew]

But then once you get to the artist, they start, like, word starts getting around that 13 is in town to do this and somebody's given all the other.

[Craig]

Heads up.

[Andrew]

A heads up. You also get a scene where thirteen meets with Lulibel's agent, and one of the. One of the clones is the secret. Like, the secretary for this agent.

[Craig]

I imagine he doesn't want to. He or she doesn't want to lose their secretary. Yeah.

[Andrew]

I mean, he wasn't. He wasn't thrilled about it, but he does understand the need to, like, He. He's like, oh, yeah, exclusivity is in now. You know, oh, God. Fashions change. It used to be fashionable. Have a bunch of copies of yourself to go out and send out and do everything, but now you need to be, you know, you need to be scarce. You need to be in demand. So he does. Okay, he does seem to agree with, like, the. The larger project, but he is like, this is gonna. This does. Is gonna kill my secretary. I'm not gonna have anybody who knows who to call to come get the dead secretary out of my office.

[Craig]

All right, Maude.

[Andrew]

But he's also got some weird. He's got some. He's got some weird stuff going on. He's like, I'm gonna give you this phone number, and when it happens, and you'll know what it is when it happens, but you call me. And so you get, you know, you get the sense that we haven't been. You know, we've been given the. The movie publicity thing and we've been given the. The, you know, scarcity is in thing, but it still feels like we have not been Given the real reason why this is happening. Like there are still things that are being hidden from us.

[Craig]

Yep. Okay. Okay.

[Andrew]

What else do we want to talk about?

[Craig]

Well, I want.

[Andrew]

She goes to the artist's house, she meets the artist, she sees the artist is bad at all this stuff. But then after, pretty much after the artist, pretty much everybody's expecting her.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And so, you know, she gets in like a fast and furious car chase with one of them.

[Craig]

Is that, is it with. Is it with a self driving car?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Well, she breaks the self driving car so she can drive it. But.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But yeah, it is initially in a self driving car. The one who is created for tax reasons, who is told only to exist, has been like training for this moment and learning all the kinds of martial arts and just like feel trying to fill the time that she's been given because she doesn't have like a task that's been assigned to her.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And so she beats the crap out of 13 when she comes, but then the mitosis people come and kind of retire her manually.

[Craig]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the, the person who runs her social media just decides to, to end it on her own terms. Like she is, she is taking care of herself by the time thirteen gets to her apartment.

[Craig]

Thirteen is a good number from a storytelling perspective. I know it was driven by the tarot thing, but it does mean that you can do like kind of like short, short, long, long. Like you can do like long, short, short. Like pacing wise, it's pretty easy to kind of mix up the rhythm.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Right. Like not, not everybody has to have their own big thing. Like some people, some people go by pretty quickly and some people take more time. Some people are set pieces and some people are not.

[Craig]

Did that, did that bother you at all? Like one of the things. And we can read them verbatim a little bit later because they do come from a specific website and they have a number of stars attached to them.

[Andrew]

Gotta get a guitar before.

[Craig]

Yeah, well, we'll do that in a second. But I feel some of the sentiment I was seeing was a desire for a little more world building and thinking that met maybe too many of the other 12 were like two dimensional, which is like, I don't know, man. There's 13 of the same person. They're gonna get a little samey. And part of the point is that some of them are kind of going to be one note.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I think you, I think you could easily have a version of this book that was a little bit longer that dug more into the. The lives of The. Of the different portraits, like, I could definitely see, like, if you wanted to, for example, this is just an idea, but to structure it in a way where you got, like, here's a chapter, like, day in the life of that. Of that portrait, like, from, you know, from being pulled out of that up until now.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

The next chapter is here's 13 to. To end things. Like, you could. You could do a bunch of different.

[Craig]

Yes, you could do a bunch of

[Andrew]

different structural things to like, give the different lulabelle clones, like, more, like, more individuality, like, more pathos. I don't know, make it more tragic that they're being killed. But I don't think the book, like you said, I don't think it wants to wallow in the tragedy of it. I think it wants. I think it wants some of the surface level stuff to read as. As funny and so it can't make us be like, yeah, yep, Yep, you know, 24 silent clock. Every time one of these. Every time one of these portraits gets killed. Oh, you like that reference to the show?

[Craig]

I like it because it's a reference for you and me. But I, But I also like. Yes, because the book is trying to be a little funny and punchy. It wants to just have a lulabelle that is, like, stuck on a bench. Like, it wants to have a lulabelle that is just doing this one thing over and over again, and then it wants to be able to have a lulabella. It's like I've. I've trained to fight you for years. Like, this is gonna take a while.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Once a multiverse where the. The changes are. Are considered insignificant, and then it wants a multiverse where the characters just wear cowboy hats and that's the only difference. Like, you know, it's some. Some. Some get to be fast and funny, and then others get to linger a

[Craig]

little bit more, I guess, to.

[Andrew]

And I, I was. I was fine with it. I do see why people would bounce off it.

[Craig]

But yeah, I guess as we kind of move forward, maybe towards the close of the quest here, like, in the

[Andrew]

same way that we are all dying a little bit all the time. From the time we start recording, we're moving toward the end of the podcast.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, sure. I meant where we are in our discussion of the book. But fair is 13. I know you mentioned, like, 13 made this kind of decision to get to know them a little bit as best she can. Is there a rejection of the call? Is there a. Like, I don't think I can do this. Or is she gonna go through it

[Andrew]

when she first meets the. The artist? She's having a hard time killing this person who is, like, basically invited into her home and, like, had her look at all the bad art and eat bad food.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And the artist is like, hey, I know they told you that you don't need to sleep or eat or whatever, but, like, you can do it, and it does feel good to sleep and eat.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But she. She can't kill the artist right there. She's like, okay, why don't you. You're working on this painting. Why don't you finish this painting and I'll come back.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

And so you get, you know, you. Oh, 13 is. Is attaching to. To one of these, and she does. And she comes back to the artist after she's had her butt kicked by, like, Kramago Kramer by martial arts. Lulabelle.

[Craig]

A very old mbmbam bit just fell out of your head.

[Andrew]

I didn't mean to.

[Craig]

No, it's okay. Tim McGraw's Craw McGraw.

[Andrew]

She comes back to the artist, and then they become romantically involved, and then she's like, I. Well, now I have to kill you last because I don't know how to. I don't know if I can kill you at all.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

And, yeah, she is. She is struck. Like, she. She's been given this task to do, and deciding not to do it is sort of intolerable for her. Like, it's. It's a thing.

[Craig]

It feels bad.

[Andrew]

Yeah, because she's. Because she's being compelled to do it. It's a caution that she has to do it, but she. But she. By the time you get down to, like, the last few, she kind of. She stops. She stops doing it. This is. This is where. I don't know if I want to talk about, like, the big twist at the end of the book or if we just.

[Craig]

You want to just yell spoilers really loud or do you want to. Do you want to do a whole bunch of other stuff first?

[Andrew]

No, I think. I think this is. This can be the thing that, like, kind of takes us out of the.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

The book. Okay, so spoilers, everybody who wants to read this book based on the first 50 minutes of this podcast, go do it and then come back or skip ahead a few minutes and, like, hear about.

[Craig]

And, like, hear about when we say Patreon.

[Andrew]

And, yeah, hear about, like, the, you know, the end of show sort of cleanup stuff.

[Craig]

We know you all listen to all of it.

[Andrew]

Every second of it.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

So what is actually, okay, Lulibelle prime, who.

[Craig]

Spoilers.

[Andrew]

Spoilers. Spoiler zone. Lulabelle prime, who has sent 13 on this mission, is getting upset with 13 for taking so long to do it because her house has been broken into by one of the portraits, and that portrait has tried to kill Lulibelle Prime.

[Craig]

Oh, snap.

[Andrew]

Yeah, because, you know, because they don't. Some. Some of them don't want to get killed. And then 13 comes back to Bluebell Prime's house, and there's like, a switcheroo thing where there's like a. I'm the real Lulabelle Rock. No, I'm the real Lulibel Rock thing with the portrait. Who is there? And it turns out that she didn't break in so much as this portrait, like, lives on premises and, like, goes out to do the acting in Lulu Bell's movies when Lulu Bell's just, like, not feeling it.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

And. And from there. So. So this is. Yes. So this has happened, and we have her agent. Lulu Bell's agent has told 13, you know, the end of this, if you want to call me, like, we're trying to get down to one Lulu Bell Rock, but, you know, who does it is. You know, is it Lulibelle Prime? It could. Could it be you? Like, do you want to be the. The one who's left standing at the end? Like, she's been. She's been made this offer, and so she is going, like, with the artist in tow at this point. Like, she's. She is going to. Because the art, like, because Lula 13 has lost the files that are telling her where to go and who to kill at what time. And so the artist kind of keeps in touch with most of the portraits and knows where the. The next one is. So they're going to a hospital, and they're going back to this wing that's, like, very sparsely populated and seems to be some kind of a secret. And we see in there a. A version of Lulibel who's clearly, like, sick and dying in. In bed, in a Hospital. And 13 is like, well, portraits don't get sick. Like, nothing. Like, unless somebody, like, forcibly kills us. We just live indefinitely. And the artist is like, yeah. And so it turns out that this is. This is the human Lulibel Rock, the source of all these portraits, who had the sort of. The material for the portraits taken from her, like, a decade ago before she got sick. And so there's a. All the stuff with, like, the agent, and everything starts to come together because it's a Lulu Bell Rock is a finite resource, but she also is, like, a business, and a lot of, like, livelihoods depend on her. And she's kind of a gravy train that this. This agent doesn't want to.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Give up.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And Lulibelle prime is the. Is, in fact, the first of the portraits who had been made.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Instead of being the real Lulabelle Rock. But she's trying to, you know, she's trying to trick everybody.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Because of the. Of the. Of the law, where when the person dies, their portrait has to be decommissioned. So they're all trying to pull. Pull fast model on everybody.

[Craig]

I think that's. It's interesting that the agent is involved and that it's. The, like, people depend on her invol. Because there is, like. And I saw some of this in the reviews that it's like, this is about Hollywood or. No, but none of the reviews I read said Holly weird, which is a missed opportunity. But there is the kind of thing where cloning is an interesting way to explore, like, famous Persona.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

Right. Where, like, the person you are is both indelibly tied to and kind of separate from whatever you are in the public sphere. And, you know, many movie stars succeed by kind of having, like, this version of themselves that people think about when they watch the movie versus who the heck they are when they're, like, you know, in their white robe, getting pink drink spilled on it or whatever. And so I. That's interesting to have it be a clone of somebody who is famous and have that wrapped up in the whole, like, business interests of. We must maintain this famous person.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So it all ends up being, you know, the. The. The portraits who are left can. Can have, like, a happily ever after thing because, like, neither the artist nor 13 really want to be the. The Lulabelle Rock.

[Craig]

Okay. Sure.

[Andrew]

And so they, you know, they. They talk with the first portrait who'd set this all in motion, and basically say, like, listen, we're gonna go off and, like, be lesbian clones and with all the things that that implies.

[Craig]

Sure, I guess.

[Andrew]

And you can be Lulabelle Rock. And we're not gonna. You know, we're not gonna cause any trouble for. And she's like, yeah, okay. Like, that's. That's basically fine. Like, go off and do your own thing.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

And there's a scene where they both. With the artist and 13, both, like, hold finger guns up to each other's heads and say, bang. And there's something in doing that, that, like, programming. Yeah.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

And so, yeah, there's a little. There's at least like a happily for now sort of ending.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

Of everything. And that's. That's where.

[Craig]

How did that work? How did all this work for you? Thank you for explaining it. And now that we're. If we're going to take the time to explain, I want to know if it, like, kind of landed or not.

[Andrew]

Every. I mean, I read you the thing earlier about, you know, she. She uses this tarot card framing for the whole book. And then at the end, she's like, well, yeah, I mean, it doesn't. It doesn't really encompass the full range of things, but it's fine, whatever. I feel a lot of like, okay, fine, whatever. Like, at the, at the end of this book, like, this is. If you. If you want a. If you want a book where the main character kind of ends up happy at the end, then sure, this is a way to do it.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

If it. It's hard to criticize something for feeling contrived because all stories are contrived. Like, yeah. You know, somebody. Somebody made them up or doctored them or put them in an order that was more satisfying than the actual order they happen. And, like, it's, you know, that's just what storytelling is. So I'm not, you know, it didn't bother me, but.

[Craig]

But sometimes it is.

[Andrew]

You know, it is. It is neat. It's very neat.

[Craig]

Yeah. And sometimes.

[Andrew]

And not. Not all. Not as interested. Like, if the messy questions a book is interested in, in interacting with are like, you know, what does it mean to be an individual? What does it mean to have preferences? What does it mean to, like. Yeah, yeah, push back about. Against what you've been conditioned to do? It's, it's. It's doing that, but.

[Craig]

But also doesn't sound like it's doing it to a, Like a. A very heavy thematic end.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like, it does. It doesn't want to be. It doesn't want to be like, oh, our. Our protagonist ends up dead at the end.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, sorry.

[Andrew]

Which is. Which is fine. I get that.

[Craig]

Yeah. I think sometimes what, what people are responding to when they are complaining that something feels contrived, what they're actually experiencing is that not enough of what was happening was like, working for them or getting them invested. Yeah. There are, There are stories. I love how they are contrived because I like how they end and I like what they resolve to thematically sometimes.

[Andrew]

Yeah, sometimes when you're complaining about that, what you're complaining about is like it's contrived and I. And it's. But it's done sort of clumsily enough that I noticed it.

[Craig]

Noticed it.

[Andrew]

I couldn't look away from it being

[Craig]

contrived or that or I was not sufficiently distracted by liking other parts of it or.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right.

[Craig]

Yeah. And generally in the Andrew, you might want to. You might need an instrument suit. Find the Andrew who knows how to play guitar.

[Andrew]

This is not gonna be a tune at all.

[Craig]

Well, the Andrew who knows how to play guitar has always been here. Andrew prime knows how to play guitar.

[Andrew]

This is. I got trash guitar. It's. Yeah, it's gonna be hideously out of.

[Craig]

I can't wait.

[Andrew]

Oh yeah. We're just gonna roll.

[Craig]

Let's do it.

[Andrew]

What do we do? What we. What?

[Craig]

Oh. I went to a website called Goodreads and I found some reviews that have three stars.

[Andrew]

Three star Goodreads review.

[Craig]

Thanks for that portrait of an in tune guitar. Anna said the guitar can choose to

[Andrew]

be out of tune if it wants to be.

[Craig]

Anna said. 13 Ways to Kill Lulibelle Rock is a diverting thriller and I can imagine work it working well as a film. It's editorial from Craig here. From Craig prime here. It has been compared to things like Orphan Black, which is a TV show that I've heard a lot of very good things about.

[Andrew]

I think the. The piece that I read mentioned like

[Craig]

Killing Eve is also Killing Eve.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. There's a lot of snappy dialogue and some great action scenes. However, I would have liked more emotional depth and exploration of cloning's implications beyond the protagonist. I'll read the second one. Andrew to to before I get your response. Curb K I R B Kirby maybe wrote this one. I don't know. The creative premise of this book was what originally drew me in and that part did not disappoint. Relationships between the clone we follow and the other 13 lulibels spoiler felt like they should have been explored deeper, but a lot of them were two dimensional. Even those who have been around a long time and were presented as unique individuals. It was especially unfortunate because we saw a few glimpses of other clones interacting with and it was infinitely more interesting than the dynamic between them and the main character. However, the creativity and writing style worked for me and I'll read whatever this person, whatever Maude Wolf publishes next. Are there like how many other examples are there of the portraits, like interacting with each other outside of them interacting with 13?

[Andrew]

I mean the main one is just. Yeah, there's some back channel communication between them happening when they realize that. That 13 is out killing them all or like, you know, the art. The artist mentions that a lot of the older ones kind of keep up with each other, but they don't necessarily, they aren't necessarily all friends with like the newer ones. You know, the ones, the ones who have been around for a while are kind of friends, but the newer ones don't get to be part of the club.

[Craig]

That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, just, I think you don't get the ending that Sheik wrote if you don't confine the book to Thirteen's perspective.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right.

[Craig]

Did you feel like you wanted more of the world around them? Were you kind of satisfied with the little teases?

[Andrew]

Yeah, like Bubble City is described a couple of times, but it's, it's mostly like it is. I think the Futurama comparison is actually

[Craig]

which the author made.

[Andrew]

Which the author made because a lot of the city is kind of like. It's just like stacked on top of itself.

[Craig]

Oh sure.

[Andrew]

Like there's a lot of verticality to the, to the city.

[Craig]

Oh, that's cool.

[Andrew]

But it's, you know, you don't really. And yes, Microsoft apparently still exists and is making productivity software. People still go. People either still Google things or Google is still being used as a generic catch all term for looking things up on the Internet.

[Craig]

Fair enough. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it is. It's not like, was there some kind of apocalypse? Is this just like a weird town that's been created out in the, out in the desert? And that's just what it is. We, we don't hear a lot more about the society that gave rise to and is affected by this like portrait technology. And again, like, you know, maybe you explain that and it's satisfying, compelling storytelling or maybe you explain more about that and it's just midichlorians and it's too much and who cares? Yeah, again, this is another one where it's like, yeah, this didn't bother me, but I could. Yeah. I understand it as a criticism of the book.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's interesting because it sounds like it is a cloning. Let's talk about cloning in the impact on the individual. Which means it doesn't. You don't need to tell though, like the full and this will upend Bubble City story. Yeah, this goes all the way to the top.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it doesn't go all the way to the top.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

This one is just. This one sort of vain, you know, movie star person. And the, and even, even the book is like yeah, she's a like a second tier Olympian at best, I think is how it describes Lulibel. Like she's not even like the top tippy. Top tier of celebrity. Like she's very. She's very famous and she's well known, but you know, she's not.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

I don't know. She's not George Clooney.

[Craig]

Yeah, no, no, that's. I like that. And yeah, so it's. Yeah, you could. You could world build it more. And I think you're right to be like it's a very delicate balance. It could. It could kind of break it if you did too much. And then I just have a review here from somebody whose reviews I'm going to be checking in on the captain who opens their review. Ahoy there, mateys.

[Andrew]

Oh, good. Somebody with a bit. I love a Goodreads reviewer with a bit.

[Craig]

It's a. It's a long review that doesn't. That. That doesn't say anything particularly new relative to what I've already said, so I've truncated it. I don't think the specific details of this read will linger long, but the sense of amusement sure will are.

[Andrew]

Oh boy. Okay, so you're doing a bit, but you're like not. You know, it's. It's more of like a. It's more bookends, you know.

[Craig]

Yeah. I was really hoping your bit is

[Andrew]

just a little superficial wrapper for like a regular review.

[Craig]

I was really hoping that the whole thing was gonna be like a vast moin man the rigging, you know.

[Andrew]

But hoist the. Hoist the mainsail for this book.

[Craig]

Something something. The jib. But no, just ARR.

[Andrew]

This will have you laughing all the way to the brig. Huh? On the high seas.

[Craig]

And just to close out here, the. I read an interview. I read a. There's a Publisher's Weekly review that was pretty positive that said it was a noirish romp, which is a fun set of words together. And a Geekly Inc.com review that talks about the moral complexity coming from some of the clones. Ambivalence about their own existence. And that was something I was eager to hear from you is kind of the. Like it's not just chasing down 12 clones that don't want to be.

[Andrew]

Yeah, some of them are. Some of them are ready for it.

[Craig]

Just like changes the. The what the book can be about, which is kind of fun. And then I also want to credit that review for introducing me to the Born Sexy Yesterday trope, which I'm sorry, I found the Wikipedia page. It's credited like popularized by this sounds like TV tropes.

[Andrew]

I'm surprised it has a wicked like a proper Wikipedia.

[Craig]

Well it. But it is. It may or may not have been written by the YouTuber who did a video essay about it. Pop pop culture detective. I'm not sure but it one. It's one of those things like a lot of these YouTube video essays. You will get it and you go yeah, that is a thing. Huh. So it's the like it's the. It's the girl from the Fifth Element. It's Amy Adams from Enchanted. It's the mermaid from Splash. It's like we made a. We made an adult woman who is basically a blank slate baby and she is hot and a woman but she doesn't know it. At least not yet. And I was. As you talked about. I don't think it. It applies to this story as interestingly. But I do need to share that there are not many instances of male characters being born sexy yesterday. Unless you go watch the Netflix film Hot Frosty.

[Andrew]

Oh God. I watched part of the Hot Frost. That movie was like in the background. Yeah, they had it on the, the holiday party like the, the, you know, the day after where we all get brunch and stuff together. Yeah, they had Hot Frost.

[Craig]

That's the right. That's the right viewing experience.

[Andrew]

That man to drink some water so I cannot see every inch of his cardiovascular system. Like it's just uncomfortable.

[Craig]

Yeah, that man has an interest. Had an interesting body in that film is something else. But. Well, thanks for telling me about this book, Andrew.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you're welcome. We're going to release of course the 13 different versions of this podcast that all of our clones, we're having this one and then all of our. Our clones are going to be paired up and they're each going to record their own version of it and we're just going to see what happens.

[Craig]

I can't wait to hear all the ad reads. If you at home have clone fiction that you want us to know about. Have your clones clone fact. Interesting. Have your clone send it to us overdue podmail.com find us on social media at Overdue Pod. And thanks to Nick Lauren. Just not a clone who composed our theme song. Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is our Internet website. We have the schedule up there. We have the old episodes, we have the current episodes. We have all the stuff, all the links that Craig just talked about. Another link up there, patreon.com overdue pod. That's our Patreon page. You can subscribe there, give us a little bit of money to support the show directly, help us buy books and equipment and hosting and all the other things that we need to make the podcast go. And then you get access to our Discord community. You can get an ad free version of the show feed. You can get our current long read project Tokyo Drifters about the manga Akira. You can get other weird special collections episodes that we decide to release. So far we've covered things like the original Minions movie and the two hour premiere of Star Deep Space Nine.

[Craig]

Go listen to them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I enjoyed all. I enjoyed the episodes.

[Craig]

Yeah, my clothes do too.

[Andrew]

Of course they do. That's all I think I've got. Is there anything else? What are you reading next week?

[Craig]

I am reading Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles The Ultimate Collection, Volume 1 by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. I have never read Ninja Turtles comics prior to this. They are something else.

[Andrew]

I'm excited to talk about this because I like there. There are a lot of different iterations of TMNT that we've been exposed to collectively. Like starting with the goofy cartoon 80s 90s cartoon into the films, into the, into like the guys wearing costumes version of the film, into like that 2000s CGI version that I, that I remember having a decent watch of.

[Craig]

I did, but I didn't. I've not seen any of the Michael Bay ones.

[Andrew]

And then there are other animated ones that have been, I think a little truer to the, the style of the original comics. So yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's everywhere. I mean mainly it's the. Maybe mainly it's there to make you buy little plastic turtles with nunchucks for your kids to play with.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But also it's, it's a interesting property.

[Craig]

It's an original underground comic in a way. And we'll talk about that so.

[Andrew]

Well, because they do live underground in the sewer.

[Craig]

That's how I know it's Andrew Prime.

[Andrew]

All right everybody, until we talk to you next week. Cowabunga. And try to be happy. That was a headgum podcast. Want a game changing way to watch college basketball? With a one day pass from Sling, get instant access to the men's and women's tournaments starting at just $4.99. You can catch all the action on TNT, TBS, ESPN and ESPN2. Want even more hoops?

[Craig]

Then add an extra pack to your

[Andrew]

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