Ep 748 - MASH: A Novel About Three Army Doctors, by Richard Hooker and W.C. Heinz

Summary

OVERDUE Podcast Ep 748: MASH—A Novel About Three Army Doctors
March 30, 2026
Host: Andrew and Craig

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Overdue dives into MASH: A Novel About Three Army Doctors by Richard Hooker (pen name of H. Richard Hornberger), with contributions from W.C. Heinz. The hosts explore the origins of the novel, its legacy through the iconic film and TV adaptations, and how the book itself stands as a piece of war and medical fiction. Andrew, who read the book for the episode, shares his impressions—surprised by its episodic structure, lack of overt antiwar sentiment, and its dated, problematic elements. They discuss how the book fits (and sometimes doesn’t) into the larger MASH franchise and reflect on what it means to revisit source material eclipsed by its adaptations.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. MAS*H in Pop Culture and Its Adaptations

• Iconic Run: The TV show (1972–1983) became a monumental piece of American television, known for its comedy, drama, and examination of war—often surpassing the novel in cultural memory.
• MAS*H Myths: They debunk the famous (and false) story of NYC’s mass toilet flushing after the show’s finale. Craig: "It's not real. It didn't happen." (06:02)
• Relationship to Source Material: The hosts note how rare it is for a TV adaptation to so vastly overshadow its original book. Andrew: "It’s the kind of thing where I knew about the show and then it was a surprise to me that it had been adapted from a book." (67:17)
• The Role of Adaptors: They explain W.C. Heinz's role in editing and tightening the book’s narrative: "I cleaned it up. It was full of those jokes that doctors like to make about the body. ... There isn't a hell of a storyline in MASH, just a succession of operations and techniques in humor—the only thing that holds it together is the characters." —W.C. Heinz (13:18)

2. Book Background & History

• Author’s Experience: Richard Hornberger based the book on his Korean War service in a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH).
• Co-Author Heinz: A war correspondent and sportswriter, Heinz helped shape the book into publishable form.
• Novel’s Intent: Hornberger aimed for a humorous account, not an antiwar polemic: "He didn’t want to write an anti war book and... sometimes the show did want to talk about it. So he hated it often. Yes." —Andrew (14:08)

3. Structure and Style of the Novel

• Episodic Vignettes: The book unfolds as a series of loosely connected anecdotes, focusing less on overarching plot or moral statements and more on moments of absurdity and camaraderie among the surgeons.
• Not a Meditative War Novel: Unlike other war books discussed on Overdue, MASH avoids deep introspection or condemnation of war. Andrew: "Unlike many war books...this one doesn't have anything to say about war. It's just like, here's a bunch of stuff that happened." (08:02)
• Characters: Focuses on Duke Forrest, Hawkeye Pierce (basis for Alan Alda’s TV character), and later Trapper John. Other supporting staff—nurses, officers, etc.—round out the cast.

4. Themes and Takeaways

• "Meatball Surgery": The practice of rough-and-ready surgery under battlefield conditions is a central theme.
  Memorable Quote:
  "This is certainly meatball surgery we do around here, but I think you can see now that meatball surgery is a specialty in itself. ... Our general attitude around here is that we want to play par surgery on this course. Par is a live patient. We're not sweet swingers, and if we've gotta kick it in with our knees to get a par, that's how we do it." —Hawkeye (35:39)
• Absence of Moral or Political Commentary:
  • The book is notably apolitical compared to its adaptations and other works of war fiction. Andrew: "Nobody at any point talks about what the war is about... You are just, like, focused on what your job is." (48:14)
  • Hornberger’s own conservative views kept antiwar themes at bay, contributing to the disconnect between the book and its more message-driven adaptations.
• Absurdity and Downtime: The vignettes often focus on the surreal, sometimes slapstick challenges of downtime between intense stretches of medical work.
  • Example: The novel contains a long, overly detailed chapter about an American-football-style game among personnel, which becomes a microcosm for the book's meandering, anecdotal tone. (42:02)
• Endings and Transitions: The book closes with the main characters reflecting on their unlikely friendships and the inevitability of drifting apart—a note the hosts found unexpectedly poignant.
  Notable Insight:
  Andrew: "...It’s weird to be contemplating that transition between, you know, we were close, we lived together. This is like a singular time in our lives that we'll never have again... there's some kind of connection that's fading, that's not gonna come back." (57:32)

5. Dated Aspects & Social Critiques

• Racism and Sexism: Both hosts are struck by the book’s casual racism and misogyny—much more egregious than in later adaptations.
  Andrew: "It's pretty wicked racist...not just against Koreans. A lot of different subtypes of white people get it too, in the book MASH." (24:57)
  • They note this reflects, but doesn't excuse or interrogate, the era's attitudes within the military.
• Portrayal of Women: Female characters are largely minor and objectified; nurse characters are even sometimes called "Abel" and "Baker," echoing the show’s early eras of underdeveloped female roles. (24:36)
• Comedic Cruelty: Several anecdotes involve the protagonists engaging in cruel pranks or the casual mistreatment of those they outwit or dislike, suggesting camaraderie on one hand but mean-spiritedness on the other.

6. The Book vs. Its Adaptations

• The Film & Show’s Direction: The Altman film and the TV show lend more overtly antiwar and dramatic tones to the source material.
• Modern readers will likely find the book’s lack of deeper thematic engagement or critique of war surprising and perhaps disappointing.
  Craig: "[The] book doesn’t seem like it’s operating in that space, as you said. So it feels more of an era of, well, I can just tell this fun story. Like, it’s about the stories that happened while we were there." (47:08)
• Modern Reception: Andrew concludes that, read today, the book feels underwhelming and rife with outdated attitudes, especially compared to works shaped by later conflicts (Vietnam, War on Terror, etc.). (61:03)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Unlike many of the war books that we've read...this one doesn't have anything to say about war. It's just like, here's a bunch of stuff that happened." —Andrew (08:02)
• "Meatball surgery is a specialty in itself...Par is a live patient. We're not sweet swingers, and if we've gotta kick it in with our knees to get a par, that's how we do it." —Hawkeye (35:39)
• "To be reading all the cool, different things that a white guy will call people living in Korea. I do... the book is like. And they took it in good humor and they liked being called that." —Andrew (25:07)
• "It’s a weird one...it's just a bunch of little weird anecdotes. And also the Korean War is happening." —Andrew (69:27)
• "I have to go on the record as saying that war is not great, great, and we should endeavor not to do it. If only somebody would invent another way to resolve differences." —Andrew (69:49)
• "It's the kind of thing where I knew about the show and then it was a surprise to me that it had been adapted from a book..." —Andrew (67:17)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:10–07:14] — MASH TV and Movie Cultural Memory, Debunking Finale Myths
• [09:07–16:31] — Author and Editor Background, MASH Unit History
• [18:15–24:36] — Adaptations: Film, TV, Differences in Tone; Sexism in Show & Film
• [24:36–25:28] — Racism and Sexism in Book and Adaptations
• [28:02–36:00] — Structure of the Book: Main Characters, Episodic Format, "Meatball Surgery"
• [37:17–44:00] — Detailed Chapter Examples: Football Game Story, Downtime and Absurdity
• [48:14–53:02] — Lack of Thematic Depth or Antiwar Sentiment
• [55:03–58:21] — Friendships, Wartime Bonds, and Poignant Conclusions
• [61:03] — Final Impressions: Dated Attitudes, Underwhelming Experience

---

Tone and Overall Feel

Andrew and Craig keep their signature witty, conversational banter—even when confronting the book’s less savory qualities or lack of depth. The episode balances humor (sometimes darkly so, in keeping with MASH tradition) with thoughtful reflection, especially regarding how we remember war stories, their adaptations, and what we hope to get from source texts.

---

Final Takeaways

• The novel MASH is a period piece—episodic, jocular, and steeped in the casual racism, sexism, and irreverence of its time. It offers a window into a unique kind of medical camaraderie under fire but deliberately avoids larger moral inquiry or antiwar sentiment.
• Its impact today is perhaps mainly as a curiosity—overshadowed in every thematic and artistic sense by its groundbreaking film and iconic television offspring. For readers looking for nuanced war fiction or even the particular antiwar tone of the show, the book is more historical document than living text.
• The hosts recommend it primarily for the curious, not the casual, with the caveat that its dated sensibilities will likely stand out sharply to modern eyes.

---

For more recommendations or to join the conversation, find Overdue on social media or visit OverduePodcast.com.

Transcript

[Craig]

This episode is brought to you in part by Cozy Earth and their comforters and essential socks. Andrew, why wouldn't you want comfort that carries you from morning to night?

[Andrew]

I don't. I can't think of even one reason why I wouldn't want that.

[Craig]

That's right my friend. You're always right. This March, Cozy Earth is crafting every piece with care. From socks that put a little lift in your step to comforters that help you sleep the good sleep each and every night. All thoughtfully crafted to to keep you comfy and elevate your daily life. Andrew, I understand that your household spins around our sun on the pale blue dot called Cozy Earth, right?

[Andrew]

Yes, we did get one of their comforters. We got set of their jammies. I'll tell you what, this comforter does put the comfort in comforter.

[Craig]

I love it. Well, our folks at home would love to know that purchasing from Cozy Earth is risk free. Take advantage of the hundred night sleep trial. If you do not love their products, you return them hassle free. But why would you? They've also got a 10 year warranty because you want comfort that endures. So discover how care in every detail transforms simple routines into moments of true comfort and ease. Head to cozyearth.com and use our code overdue for up to 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort and make every day feel this episode is brought to you in part by Mint Mobile. I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also like to keep my money and they love to sit on it like a big dragon on a mountain of treasure. Enough. It is time to ditch the crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks that cost more in the long run. It is time to switch to Mint Mobile. You could be saving so much money by switching to Mint it's unbelievable. Like a valiant knight, Mint is here to rescue you from those big dragons sitting on your money. They've got plans starting at 15 bucks a month. You bring your own phone and phone number. No long term contracts. No hassle. We love Mint Mobile here at Overdue. We love that they are a much more affordable option compared to those big wireless carriers and they've got great premium storage service ready and waiting for you. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] overdue that's mintmobile.com overdue upfront payment of $45 for three month five gigabyte plan required. It's equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Andrew]

This is a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy

[Andrew]

away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig. My name is Andrew, reporting for duty. Book duty. Welcome to book camp.

[Andrew]

We're doing another. Doing another tour on book duty.

[Craig]

Drop and give me 50 pages to read quickly.

[Andrew]

We've been on the front lines of this, of this fight for so long that it's hard to. It's hard to remember a time before we were doing this.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

This.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Every week one of us reads a book that we've never read before and tells the other person about it and we tell you about it at home. And this week I read the book.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And I read the book. Mash Colon. A novel about three army doctors.

[Craig]

M star. A star. Or is it.

[Andrew]

That's not. That's the show. And possibly the movie. That's not the book.

[Craig]

Okay, just don't bash all caps.

[Andrew]

Book don't got no stars.

[Craig]

Okay, sure.

[Andrew]

By Richard Hooker, the pen name of H. Richard Hornberger.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And that's the book that I read. It's the. It is in fact the book that the movie. The 1970 movie M.A.S.H. and then the 1972 TV show M.A.S.H

[Craig]

is based on that ran until 1983. So I always have to remind myself that it actually, like TV shows did

[Andrew]

not run for that long back then as a matter of course. Now the Simpsons in like season 37, Always Sunny is like season 19 or something. Like it's become. I feel like it's become more common now for some shows to get that. To run that long. But yeah, actually that's wrong. Ignore what I'm saying. It's more common for shows to just get like canceled after two seasons.

[Craig]

But no, here we are. I am not a MASH head if he dates me.

[Andrew]

I had a grandpa who loved mash the show.

[Craig]

I know, it was huge. It was humongous. We'll talk big show about that. Yeah.

[Andrew]

The finale is among the most watched scripted television programs ever.

[Craig]

Yep. There's an apocryphal. I believe it's an Apocryphal story.

[Andrew]

It's definitely apocryphal, but about all the.

[Craig]

The toilets in New York City, like, flushing at once when the MASH finale was over, creating water pressure problems throughout the land.

[Andrew]

It's not real. It didn't happen.

[Craig]

No, it didn't happen. And it's my understanding that type of anecdote actually dates back to early, like Amos and Andy stuff. Like, it's not real. So anyway.

[Andrew]

Well, it was good that we talked about it, though.

[Craig]

Yeah, well, it's good that we perpetuate.

[Andrew]

It's good that we perpetuated the misinformation.

[Craig]

It's out there as part of the legend of the finale from folks like Alan Alda, who was one of the stars of the show and became one of the auteurs of the later run of the show. I certainly remember reading about. I think there's that long stretch in the footnotes of Infinite Jest about, I think, the patriarch of the incandescent family being obsessed with mash. Like, there's like a whole riff on it being the most important television show that ever existed. Which, of course, this was before who Wants to Be a Millionaire. So, like, listen, wait,

[Andrew]

okay, that's. That's got.

[Craig]

I really got you with that one. That's not the.

[Andrew]

That's got your vote for most important television show ever.

[Craig]

It's up there.

[Andrew]

It was a big deal. I guess I remember it being appointment viewing for my family.

[Craig]

Not as fun as you are. The Weakest Link. Goodbye.

[Andrew]

No, that show is that one. No, that show was trying to try to capture millionaires appeal and didn't do it. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't watch Weakest Link. No, thanks.

[Craig]

It's up there with like, Wheel of Fortune.

[Andrew]

MASH is a. I was interested to read. I was interested to read the source book for a TV show that I don't have a deep personal relationship with, but I have seen episodes, episodes of. And that did have a huge cultural footprint. And I found this book that is like, it's. It's funny. It's mostly vignettes. It's set during the. The series. Everything is set in like a medical unit during the Korean War. For people who aren't familiar.

[Craig]

Yeah. And I was not.

[Andrew]

And unlike many of the war books that we've read for this podcast, in the times that we've been on the front lines, this one doesn't have anything to say about war. It's just like, here's a bunch of stuff that happened.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

My understanding it's based on Hornberger's experience serving as a surgeon in the Korean War in one of these MASH units. But he doesn't have anything to say about, like, the, the, like the moral valence of war or anything else about it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

At a personal. Like he occasionally will. Will dive into somebody's head to, like,

[Craig]

who might think about it.

[Andrew]

Well, to pick apart what they might think about, like, just their job, but people. Yeah, people are not in this book really grappling with larger questions.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Which.

[Craig]

Let's talk.

[Andrew]

Yeah, let's talk about the people who made the book.

[Craig]

Yeah, do it because H. Richard Hornberger Jr. Born in 1924 in Trenton, New Jersey.

[Andrew]

What's the H stand for?

[Craig]

Heister.

[Andrew]

Oh, that's a good name.

[Craig]

Yeah, he passed away in 1997. Went to Bowdoin College before he passed away in 1997. I don't mean to say that those things happened in order. Sure. He went to medical school.

[Andrew]

He lay in state at B College.

[Craig]

He went to medical school at Cornell University. He was drafted into the Korean War and served in the 8055 Mobile Army Surgical Hospital Unit. As Andrew said, the MASH unit. I did put together a few quick notes on MASH units.

[Andrew]

Yeah, they're just like. All I know about them is they're kind of frontline medical stuff in war. And they were mostly retired in the early 2000s in favor of other stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah, they kind of came into prominence in the U.S. army in the Korean War after some precursors in World War II, of course. The Korean War never, never truly ended. It's just a frozen conflict, an armistice of sorts.

[Andrew]

What's it like to sort of start some kind of foreign entanglement that we then have to just live with the results of for the rest of time? That's weird. What is it like to do that? Do you think that's weird?

[Craig]

And yes, they are designed to get experienced medical crew as close to the front lines as possible to give immediate treatment in. What is. I don't know. I can't remember what the term is. It's that first hour after an injury occurs where like, most of the, like, you know, the valence of what? Not the valence, but the trajectory of somebody's healthcare outcome. Sorry. You said it and then I thought I was listening to you.

[Andrew]

You should be happy about.

[Craig]

Was particularly useful, wasn't it?

[Andrew]

The golden hour or something. I feel like it's similar to the term used for the really good time to take pictures.

[Craig]

That's why I didn't say it. I was worried I had the wrong thing. And it's. It was also critical, given the mountainous terrain in Korea, which could slow up ground transports, it would later in Vietnam get replaced by what are called must units, medical units, self contained transportable units, which had some more trailers and more modern technology. This is really much like in the Korean War. It's like a tent with tables and knives and like, yeah, maybe I don't

[Andrew]

remember if this is Hornberger who described it this way or somebody who he knew described it this way, but basically, like, your surgical table is a slab laid on top of sawhorses, and that's a MASH.

[Craig]

And the last Korean unit of MASH was decommissioned in 1997. Formally, there were actually some members of the MASH television cast that attended this odd ceremony.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And then the last proper mass unit was converted to what is called a combat. Combat support hospital in 2006, ending this program. But, yeah, for a long time, it had mostly kind of been a formality.

[Andrew]

Kush.

[Craig]

So he.

[Andrew]

Cushion is fun to say.

[Craig]

You got that Kush. You got that Combat surgical hospital. So he serves in the war and then works in the VA hospital in the 50s. He starts writing down his experiences in the late 50s, rather, and then goes into private practice in Maine. He is, like, catching up with a colleague, and this spurs him to be. They're swapping stories and he's like, we should. We should. I should write this down. Let me turn this into a book. He works on it a long time. He is connected with another, with a sports writer named W.C. hines, via a medical colleague. Hines had gotten help from Dr. Chamberlain, who Hooker had studied under Hornberger, rather, Hooker is the pen name and wrote Heinz a letter being like, hey, this guy's working on a book. You should. You two should collaborate. Hind said on his contribution. I cleaned it up. It was full of those jokes that doctors like to make about the body.

[Andrew]

Wait, what.

[Craig]

What jokes? I don't know. Then it took quite a while, maybe a year back and forth. Oh, like the. Like the postal service. I eventually tied everything together. As much as it got tied together. There isn't. As there isn't a hell of a storyline in mash, just a succession of operations and techniques. In humor, the only thing that holds it together is the characters and the familiarity that the reader comes to have with them.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's accurate.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I mean, at least the part where there's no story is accurate.

[Craig]

Yeah. And Hornberger's thing is, basically, he's the guy who made MASH you know, as

[Andrew]

an author, my understanding is that he sold the movie rights for a pittance. And the movie was super popular, huge blockbuster. The show similarly, big, big deal. He didn't like the show because he thought that Alan Alda was too liberal.

[Craig]

Yes, correct.

[Andrew]

He was conservative and he didn't want to write an anti war book and he didn't want to. He didn't want to talk about it. And sometimes the show did want to talk about it.

[Craig]

So he hated it often. Yes. He wrote two sequel novels, Mash Goes to Maine in 1972 and Mash Mania Goes to in 1977. I believe both of those are about some of the doctors from MASH doing things stateside. And the Swamp Gang, I think they're called. Is that right, Andrew?

[Andrew]

Yeah, the Swamp.

[Craig]

In between the original MASH and those novels, there were 12 sequel novels written by William E. Butterworth.

[Andrew]

I believe they were cash ins based on the popularity of the show.

[Craig]

Okay, well, the show, yeah, had all the show started by that point.

[Andrew]

But here are these coming out.

[Craig]

I'm trying to find this. When those. Oh, between. Yes, between MASH Goes to Maine and MASH Mania. You're right, you're right, you're right. They're all cashing up.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

MASH Goes to New Orleans. MASH Goes to Las Vegas, MASH Goes to San Francisco.

[Andrew]

There's like. Those aren't like the Ernest movies.

[Craig]

I know.

[Andrew]

Scared, stupid.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Goes to jail.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. So just a quick note about Heinz. Born in 1915, passed away in 2008. Born in Mount Vernon, New York. Studied at Middlebury. He worked for the New York sun in the 30s. The old started as a copy boy, then became city desk reporter, then war correspondent. He became the senior war correspondent when the older, the other one got like kidnapped and became a pow.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And then he was on one of the boats that participated in D Day. He comes back from the war, starts doing magazine sports work in the early 50s. And then he writes two novels. The Professional in 1958 about a boxer prepping for a fight, and then the surgeon in 1963. And I think that is the one where he had connected with the colleague of Hornberger.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

So he, you know, he's a. He's a decorated sports writer and reporter who, you know, contributed to making this book publishable, is my understanding.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And then the long tail of this is all the stuff with the movie and the TV show, Andrew. Which is why anybody would know what MASH is, I think. I don't think people are carrying around their tattered copies of the book.

[Andrew]

No, that's.

[Craig]

I mean, that's.

[Andrew]

That's the only reason I was curious about the book at all is because I knew about the TV show.

[Craig]

Yes. The 70 film adaptation is by Robert Altman. It's written by Ring Lardner Jr. Who was on the Hollywood 10. This was his first major project after getting off of the Blacklist. He had a previous project called the Cincinnati Kid, but he. This was like, the first, like, real job he had. He said in an interview for a book called Backstory. Three interviews with screenwriters of the 1960s. Love the names of books sometimes. He had gotten asked to do a blurb for this book because the publisher liked a blurb he did for a friend. And then he saw that it was a bunch of separate short stories. He thought maybe he could make a movie out of it, talk to his agent, and pitched it to some producers. He says the book was uneven in style and credibility, with some incidents that were just too wild and improbable to be acceptable in a movie. And the main thing, he says, is in my adaptation, the main characters were the same way all the way through. And the illusion of a story had to be sustained by the action and the comedy. They did discuss moving the setting to Vietnam, but realized that because the war was still going on, it might be hard to be funny. And instead they could satirize the whole idea of American involvement in wars in Asia.

[Andrew]

Yeah, wars in the past. Famously hilarious. Hogan's Heroes. Very funny, because it happened after the war had happened. But if you try to have. If you try to make Hogan's Heroes While World War II is happening, then they cancel you, like, both culturally, and they cancel your TV show, and they don't make it anymore.

[Craig]

I read a blog post on a website called Critics at Large. It was written by David Devin McKinney, talking about all of the MASH projects. And who says the book, drafted on the gusts of the comic novel of military hijinks, still reasonably marketable in the late 1960s, the film came at the apex of Vietnam controversy and the dawn of the Hollywood renaissance. And the series, at first merely an aspiring extension of the movie's box office success, morphed under the virtual auteurship of Alan Alda into something quite its own. So he kind of paints a picture of, like, these three versions of this story, just kind of, like, all building on what came before them and what the zeitgeist was at the moment.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And the TV show, as I read about it, like it did as time went on, as cast members left, as, like the writing staff turned over, and then also as Alda became more of a, like, behind the scenes creative force on the show. It did go from being a, a, a comedy that had dramatic bits to a drama that had funny bits.

[Craig]

Correct. It did.

[Andrew]

It did have a, like a canned laugh track all the way through its run, which everybody who worked on the show hated.

[Craig]

They were able, it's my understanding, they were able to negotiate that the laugh track would never happen in the operating room. They were able to keep it out of any scene that took place during an operation, even if there were jokes.

[Andrew]

And I know, I know the DVD would let you watch the show both with, without the laugh track and then the streaming ones. I have been more hit and miss on that. I think, like, last, last I knew it was on Hulu and it had been like, it, like the original. It's like a lot of those 90s shows that are rereleased on streaming where, like, they did go back to the original film and, like, rescan it at higher resolution, which is great. But then they, they Crockett weird because they think that if somebody sees A, like a 4, 3 aspect ratio image on their widescreen television that they'll just, like, light their houses on.

[Craig]

It's really weird.

[Andrew]

Nobody thinks anybody can take it.

[Craig]

I'll do a quick rundown on the show, Andrew, before we get into the novel. 1972 is when it premieres. It's, you know, starring Alan Alda as Hawkeye. It's developed by Larry Guybert and Gene Reynolds. Reynolds had served in World War II as a minesweeper. Was an actor first. He was a child actor.

[Andrew]

Did he play solitaire, too?

[Craig]

I don't know if he played solitaire on his minesweeper boat or if he was, you know, challenged by anyone named Chip or had to enact revenge on some rodents. Who knows?

[Andrew]

I mean, maybe after he did his job, he got to ski free also.

[Craig]

Maybe. I would, I would like to think so. He worked on a lot of television as a director. Leave it to Beaver, Andy Griffith, the Munsters, and for this show, for MASH. He was nominated for 24 Emmys and six wins. He met both of his. Well, I don't know if he met both of his wives, but both of his wives did act on the show mash. So that's a fun tidbit.

[Andrew]

Sometimes you meet people at work, I guess.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's Gene Reynolds. Larry Guybert was a writer and director who spent a year and 11 days in the Armed Forces Radio Service during World War II. I think those 11 days are notable because it kept him from being drafted for Korea because he had a year of service.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

He got into writing on radio shows and Bob Hope and Sid Caesar. He did co write the book for A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, which is a fun musical. And then he gets into mash in the 70s as well. They got plenty of their ideas from other veterans of MASH units. Cbs, so it goes, is that CBS thought they greenlit a comedy and then everybody else had other, other ideas about what was going on there. We talked about the finale and everybody peeing or not or whatever they did in their toilets.

[Andrew]

They didn't do. Stop saying it. Nobody did that.

[Craig]

It did end as like a two hour movie and they had to end it with. And with the war ending. There were several follow up series, one called after mash where they worked at a midwestern hospital. The most successful was Trapper John, M.D. which ran for seven or eight seasons,

[Andrew]

which is one of those. Like it didn't have any actors in common with mash. And also for legal reasons they were very clear about it being a spin off of the film and not a spin off of the show mash.

[Craig]

And then there was a show, an unpurchased pilot for a show called Walter with the. With stars between every letter of the name Walter.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And it was aired on the east coast, but it was preempted by the Democratic national convention of 1984, which meant that it was not really ever aired in mountain or western time.

[Andrew]

I think that's fine. I mean this sounds like that episode of the Office where like Dwight has a farm for some reason.

[Craig]

That's true.

[Andrew]

I mean I do, I do like a backdoor pilot. Yeah, just structurally and conceptually. But it is mostly fine that they don't get picked up.

[Craig]

And you can read about the 50th anniversary of the show in the New York Times. There's a pretty good article called Mash at 50 War is Hell, parentheses Arius by James Ponozik. And it's a pretty good rundown of the whole kind of series and traces it to some modern dramedies and some workplace comedy stuff, but also outlines a lot of the sexism that is present in both the Altman film and in the show. That it is largely a male story. That for many years the show had minor nurse characters called Abel and Baker. So that they were literally A and B, you know, just interchangeable people in

[Andrew]

the yeah, there are a couple women in this, but it's not. They're not. They're not much of a focus. And the book is also, like, super, like, wicked racist. Again, I mean, listen, against everybody, not just the Koreans. A lot of different. A lot of different subtypes of white people get it, too, in. In the book mash.

[Craig]

Yep, yep.

[Andrew]

I don't want to, like, I don't want to talk about it too much because it is. I think it does sort of define the experience of reading it now.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

To be reading all the cool, different things that. That a white guy will call people living in. Living in Korea. I do. Like, if there. If there's a defense of it, I guess it's that, you know, what place there was probably a lot of racism and sexism is like, in the army in the 50s.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know, it's probably true to the experience, but everybody's just like, so casually just handing out, you know, sort of, like racial epithet nicknames to people. And then the book is like. And they took it in good humor and they liked being called that.

[Craig]

There's.

[Andrew]

And it was fine. And then that's what we called them for the rest of forever.

[Craig]

There's a piece in the Guardian Mash at 50 about the movie by Noah Gittel that just. It just goes to town on the misogyny of that film and how it is, like, kind of groundbreaking as part of New Hollywood to have these morally ambiguous protagonists, but that means that they're also a bunch of men who suck. Yeah, they do a bunch of stuff that is like, you know, does the movie know it all sucks as much as it does seems, you know, makes it hard to watch now where it's mostly about just depicting that not all of our soldiers are heroes, that sort of of thing. So. Okay, let's take a quick break, Andrew, and then you can tell me what happens in the book mash, a novel about three army doctors.

[Katie Duke]

Hi, I'm Katie Duke, and I've been a nurse for over 20 years. Listen, I used to think that I was my most stylish in my 20s, but honestly, style and confidence only get better with age. And that is why I love figs. These scrubs are beautiful, comfortable, and they are built to last. They're not those boxy scratchy uniforms that we all started out in. No, no, no. These fit perfectly. They feel amazing, and the quality is just.

[Craig]

Wow.

[Katie Duke]

My favorite color, burgundy. It's chic, it's timeless, and it's even the same color as my apartment because I'm kind of obsessed with it. And I love adding custom embroidery to make my scrubs as personal as my style. And since I work in telehealth, my embroidered figs even double as my ID badge. It's never too late to reinvent yourself or your scrubs. Get 15% off your first order at wearfigs.com with the code FIGS RX. That's wearfigs.com code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order.

[Craig]

Cut.

[Andrew]

Andrew, I guess it's about three army doctors.

[Craig]

Is it. Is it about Question you could.

[Andrew]

There were. It's kind of like if you had, like, the movie 300, and you said that the movie 300 is a movie about three Spartans. Because it is like it is, but only if you don't count the other 297 of them.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Like, there are other doctors in here. There are nurses. There are sort of. There are officers. There are lots of other characters in

[Craig]

the book, but there are there three main characters.

[Andrew]

There are three main doctors, but, like, doctor number three is kind of a little bit more of a side character because he's not there at the very beginning, and he's not there at the very end. That's Trapper John.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Who joins them later. But the setup for the book is Lieutenant Colonel by the name of Henry Blake is heading up the mash in the book. It's the 4077th mash.

[Craig]

Yes. I believe that's what they use in all the other ones. Yeah.

[Andrew]

He's like, we need. We need doctors. We need surgeons for our. For our mash, because we don't have enough or they're not good enough. And so he puts out a re. You know, puts in a request for. For two surgeons, and he gets a couple of. He gets a couple of jokers by the names of Duke Forrest and Hawkeye Pierce.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Hawkeye's given name is Benjamin Franklin Pierce Jr. I think, but he goes by Hawkeye.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

This is the Alan Alda character, if you're familiar with the show. And they are coming in at the same time. Duke is from Georgia. He's a Southern gentleman. And Hawkeye Pierce is. Is a Yankee. But they discover that they think similarly about many things. They both like booze, and so they form a sort of fast friendship. And there's. There's a moment at the. In the beginning of their relationship where they're like, it's weird that we're so different, but we are. So. We're all also so much the same.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

And you know, a different book could, could try and do something thematically with, with a sentiment like that, but this book doesn't, doesn't do that.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

This book isn't. This book isn't really interested in having, like, themes.

[Craig]

No, it does.

[Andrew]

Or like a larger message.

[Craig]

It feels like a guy lived through some stuff, wanted to write it down because he was in community with other people who had lived that and went, this should be in a book.

[Andrew]

It's. Yeah, I mean, it's in it. I'm begging on it for not having more to say because I, I don't know, because. Because of the moment that we're currently in. Because I don't know, because it does bother me when, just in general, when, when it comes to like, you know, big systemic, like, society wide problems or issues, when people like, willfully decide that connecting point A and point B is like, is political or they don't want to do it for whatever reason. I don't know, it just, it bothers me.

[Craig]

That's fair. But, you know, but two different guys.

[Andrew]

Two different guys and red wine and white wine and Hornberger, you know, he lived through some stuff and he wants to, he wants to relay it, and it's not. There are, like, reading about the experience of being in war, but, like, not quite in war is interesting like it is. The book is characterized by these stretches where you're doing a lot of, like, intense medical stuff and there are a lot of injured people coming in from the front lines. And in a way, it's better for these surgeons that they are not thinking about the wider implications of anything in particular because everybody is just, you know, this guy's come in and he's got something wrong with his colon. This guy's got something in his chest. This guy's got a collapsed lung. Like, you just got to get people in and out.

[Craig]

Yep, sure.

[Andrew]

And it's, it's. It's described in the book a couple times as meatball surgery.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Both like derogatory and non derogatory.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I bet the closest it has to a, to sort of a thesis statement comes at the end when a couple of new doctors come to the. The mash, and they have been. They have recently completed their education at, you know, institutions of higher learning in the States. And they come in with a lot of, like, technical knowledge and knowledge about new procedures and new ways that things are being done. But then when they get to the mash, their, Their book, Larnin, doesn't serve them as well as the meatball surgery that that Hawkeye and Duke and everybody else have been. Have been practicing.

[Craig]

This reminds me. There's a book called the House of God by Samuel Shem. I read it years ago for some theater work that I was doing. It is a 1978 novel that's like a satirical medical novel. And it is a. I. It is my understanding that the writers of Scrubs were well versed in this book because it is, like, very much about the ways in which medical practice can lead you to be an absurdly cold person. Because how else are you going to survive it?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The ways in which kind of the hidden curriculum of residency training can lead you to see patients as just a series of problems to solve.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

All of that kind of stuff. It is my. I read that book year, like, over a decade ago. I recall it feeling more like something like catch 22, which is also deliberately kind of absurdist, than something like this, which feels like it's being funny, but isn't like operating on a Looney Tunes level. Right.

[Andrew]

No, it's. It's not Looney Tunes. Like, the care. The characters do nutty things.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Do. Do, like nutty frat boy.

[Craig]

I don't think that's a word that you and I use regularly. Nutty.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, they're just being nutty. Like, that's. It's. I feel like it's merited here because it's just, like, weird screwball comedy stuff

[Craig]

that they get to. Yes. Huh.

[Andrew]

But anyway, to the extent the book has a thesis statement, like something to say about the way that they're practicing medicine here in the mash, this is, I believe, Hawkeye talking to one of the new doctors. Now I'll offer you some thoughts, he told the much relieved Captain Pinkham. This is certainly meatball surgery we do around here, But I think you can see now that meatball surgery is a specialty in itself. We're not concerned with the ultimate reconstruction of the patient. We're concerned only with getting the kid out of here alive enough for someone else to reconstruct him. Up to a point, we're concerned with fingers, hands, arms and legs. But sometimes we deliberately sacrifice a leg in order to save a life. If the other wounds are more important, in fact, now and then, we may lose a leg. Because if we spent an extra hour trying to save it, another guy in the pre op ward would die from being operated on too late. That's hard to accept at first, he said. But tell me something, Doctor. Do you play golf? I do, Captain Pinkham said, but I haven't been getting much in lately. Then let me put it this way. Hawkeye said, our general attitude around here is that we want to play par surgery on this course. Par is a live patient. We're not sweet swingers. And if we've gotta kick it in with our knees to get a par, that's how we do it. I can't argue against that. Captain Pinkham said. Good. Hawkeye said, come on up to the swamp for a drink. The swamp is the tent that Hawkeye and Duke and Trapper John live in, where they all are just all drinking martinis out of water glasses all the time.

[Craig]

Yeah. This all feels of a piece with, like, everything from House of God to ER to scrubs to the pit, where it's like. You won't believe how doctors have to view patients to, like, get through this work. And.

[Andrew]

But. But then also. But sometimes it is. Sometimes it does pay off to make that emotional connection with a patient.

[Craig]

I bet it does.

[Andrew]

You got to keep that in mind.

[Craig]

I did in my research on the mashes, see that it. It did for. For reasons that are probably related to the horrors of war. Build a lot of structure that we use in, like, modern triage, emergency room work. Anyway, just. How do you prioritize certain types of care? Yeah, how do you do meatball surgery? I've never heard it called meatball surgery. I'm never gonna forget about that now.

[Andrew]

I don't think they call it meatball surgery just, like, routinely anymore, but hope not. But it is. It does evoke a certain.

[Craig]

It really does. Yeah, it really. It's like you don't even need to know exactly what it means to get the meaning of it.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

A little sloppy. But also, who. But also, who doesn't love a meatball?

[Craig]

Who doesn't love a meatball?

[Andrew]

I mean, people who don't eat meatball.

[Craig]

It just has to be tasty.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay, so what. What else do these guys get up to?

[Andrew]

Well, so. Okay. Yes. So the. The pace of the book and the. Also. Also the pace of the Korean War. This is like getting back to a. Like a larger point that I unintentionally branched off of.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Andrew]

They will have weeks where fighting is really intense and where people are being like. There are. If you hear a helicopter coming either at 6am or 6pm it's bad because it means that the people on this helicopter are wounded badly enough that they could not wait for better flying conditions. So you get times of really intense activity where a lot of stuff is happening and then you get times where nothing is happening and like, nobody's doing anything. And at this point, you have lots of time to get up to hijinks and to sort of goof off, and that's what these boys do. Okay, is there the. The overarching theme of the book is Duke Forest and Hawkeye Pierce are. And Trapper John, to a slightly lesser extent. Lesser extent in that he's not featured as much.

[Craig]

Yeah. The other two, not like he is less of a.

[Andrew]

Not that he's less capable, but these three guys are kind of pains in the butt and they goof off a lot and they disobey the chain of command and they got problems with authority, but they're so good at doing meatball surgery that they can pretty much do get away with whatever they want, including, like, getting other people, like, kicked out of the MASH because they don't like them for some reason. Sometimes. Sometimes those reasons feel justified. There's like a Protestant preacher who works with the MASH for a while, and Hawkeye discovers that he is like ghost writing letters to people's families without checking on the condition of the patient first. So a letter goes out to somebody's family saying, I've been hurt, but I'm fine. And the guy. The guy is dead, actually.

[Craig]

Oh, God.

[Andrew]

And so Hawkeye and company pull a hilarious prank where they pretend that they are, like, ritually sacrificing this preacher. And then he's out of the MASH after that. There's a. There's sort of a. There's a. But there's a button up surgeon who's kind of a jerk and who is having sex with like, the only woman there who everybody other than Hawkeye calls Hot Lips. And I believe Hot Lips is a. Is a character in the show as well. Yeah, we are not supposed to like Hot Lips because she. She doesn't really buy into the swamp men's particular combination of like, insubordinate but talented. So there's a. But there's a button up uptight doctor, and a couple of the swamp men punch him a couple times for, like, perceived slights. And then one of them, I think Hawkeye, like, goads this. This button up doctor into threatening him, like, in front of their commanding officer. And so he gets sent out of the MASH as well.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

There are. There's an episode where they. Some congressman's son has been hurt in the war and he's in Japan, and they need the best doctors to go look at, look at him. And the congressman has Pulled strings. And because somebody in the army felt like they needed to, you know, be seen doing something instead of just leaving things to the capable doctors in Japan, they enlist Hawkeye and the Duke to go to Japan. And so they go and they're like, oh, this is near a golf course that's having a tournament. Like, let's. We're. We're going to do the bare minimum to save this congressman's son. And then we're gonna enter the golf tournament, which they do, and they don't do very well. But then also they run into a, like a, the baby of a, of a prostitute and an American officer, and that baby's got some medical problems, and they fix the baby and then they convince one of their friends who lives in Japan to adopt the baby. And then they go back. Yeah, and then they go back to the mash, and then everything is fun.

[Craig]

So is it, is it structured as these, like, discrete stories or is it. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Every chapter is like its own little thing.

[Craig]

There's one where the gang goes to Japan.

[Andrew]

The one where the gang goes to Japan and they, they have all kinds of adventures with a congressman's son and an illegitimate child.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

There's one chapter toward the end where there's this whole plot where one of the. One of the teams in Korea has. They've put together a football team and they're betting. They're letting people bet money on the football team, but they've enlisted some like second string NFL players who happen to be drafted. And so they're trying to hustle everybody by, you know, betting them money on this football game and then having ringers there. And so our MASH crew brings in their own. Their own ringer who also played football, and they. And then they beat the, they beat the other team.

[Craig]

You told me that this was like a whole long.

[Andrew]

It's so long and it's so detailed about football and like football plays and like different developments in the game of football that, that are happening around the same time.

[Craig]

And like, you know, the kinds of,

[Andrew]

like Notre Dame is running or whatever. Like, it's so, it's so detailed and it just becomes a football book for like a very long chapter. It's one of the longest chapters in the book. And it's. And it's just about a football game.

[Craig]

I can't imagine a book that would work more awkwardly for you than a surprise football book. Like, I feel like you could get into a football book if it was, if it was telling you up front.

[Andrew]

I think if you're trying to do like a Friday Night Lights thing where it's like, there's a story full of, like, intriguing characters and pathos and stuff. And then they play football sometimes. And then you get to watch the football game and have fun.

[Craig]

I've thought about whether or not we should look at that source material because it wasn't.

[Andrew]

I'm not against it, but this. This is more like. This isn't. This isn't like that.

[Craig]

No, this is what.

[Andrew]

What if suddenly in your book about the Korean War and the surgeons who work in the Korean War, you got to read a really long blow by blow of your, like, Uncle Gary's Dutch football. So I guess this amateur football game between people who are both trying to out hustle each other.

[Craig]

Something I've been thinking about. So, like, obviously we're in a really fraught, terrible situation right now.

[Andrew]

I don't know.

[Craig]

U.S. military as we record this on March 25, 2026. And I think about us not having, you know, we're. We're a country that does not have a draft right now. Right. And I think about the. I'm wondering about this novel in the context of, you know, prior Vietnam and before. There's just this chance that everybody's just going to be in the war. Any war that's going on, you're probably in it. Or there's.

[Andrew]

We still had to sign up for, like, selective service, whatever. Like you. Yeah, it's still like they're waiting to be activated in a way. It's just become. I mean, up until now, it's become so politically radioactive.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

To force people to go to war, to. To die for reasons they may not agree with, reasons that may or may not exist. Like, pick. Pick your thing. But, like, it's still there.

[Craig]

I. What I'm thinking about as you struggle with the kind of underwhelming thematic content of this novel is that, like, in a world, in an era, maybe in a generation where it's better odds than not that everybody has a much more personal connection to the most recent military conflict or the current ongoing one, that somebody would just be like, well, we all went through it. I should make sure that, like, the experiences of me and the people who were there are, like, covered. Like.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think. I think that's. I think that's totally valid because it doesn't.

[Craig]

It's a pre. I guess, when is Vietnam relative to the publication of this novel? Because I don't want to misspeak and assume, because I think Vietnam was underway by the Time this book comes out.

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, certainly.

[Craig]

Right. Yeah. And something that is very prevalent in a lot of the discussion around both the film and the TV show and is that, like, opinions on the Vietnam conflict were completely soured. They were both read as very, if not explicitly, then implicitly anti war. And that was kind of okay because public opinion had turned. Whereas this book doesn't seem like it's operating in that space, as you said. So it feels more of an era of. Well, I can just tell this fun story. Like, it's a. It's about the stories that happened while we were there.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Not about, well, I have to get out here and like, plant my flag in war is bad.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Though it doesn't sound like it's shying away from, like. And then people would come in with.

[Andrew]

It's definitely, like, it's often very graphic about. Graphic in a way that did not trigger, like, does not trigger my, my, like, queasiness about, like, body and medical stuff, but still, like, you know, still describing in. In fairly graphic terms the kinds of injuries that people are coming in with. It's just like, there's no, there's no. And this, you know, this, this happened in the show. In the episodes that I've seen, there's no scene after they go through a particularly bad surgery, you know, fixing up some 21 year old who's had his lung collapse. Like, there's no scene where somebody's outside smoking a cigarette being like, is it, you know, is it. Is it worth this? Is it worth this cost? Is it worth, you know, sacrificing young people's lives? Like, nobody at any point talks about what the war is about.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You know, like, what. What the goals of it might be. You are just like, focused on what your job is. Like, this is just reality.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And we are interested in, like, sort of interrogating anything else. Yeah. Like, I'm trying, but. Yeah. Your impulse, I think is. Is right. Like, I'm trying not to. Not to be too hard on it for that, because I. It's not that I don't think that there's some value in what's being relayed here. It just hits me so weird. Well, yeah, because I have to have a war book and to have somebody have direct experience in war and treating war wounded and for them to walk away, like, being like, let me. Let me make a workplace comedy about this. Like, I don't, you know.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

It feels like it's not quite grappling with the seriousness of the subject matter. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

No, no, I know exactly what you mean. Because like, the most recent one I think we've covered was like, Johnny got your. Johnny get your gun. Or Johnny got his gun.

[Andrew]

Yeah. The one with the guy who couldn't talk literally was.

[Craig]

Yeah, corpse in a blanket. Kind of like trying to exist after a landmine blew him up or whatever.

[Andrew]

He was trying not to exist.

[Craig]

He was also trying not to exist. That is also true. And I'm like thinking about, you know, like kind of post all of the modern grapple, like fiction grappling with conflict, like stuff like Hurt Locker, and just. It takes. Sort of takes for granted that war is going to dehumanize you. And. And it. There's a. There's a human cost just in participating in it. Which this does not seem to. To go right. To go right to that assumption.

[Andrew]

Yeah, even. I mean, even in chapters where it's. There's one big. There's one big event like toward the middle of the book called the deluge. How do you pronounce that word?

[Craig]

The deluge.

[Andrew]

Yeah, deluge. Where just for four weeks, they are getting 6am 6pm helicopters every single day. And everybody is just like under the gun and having to operate on no sleep. And they're making bad decisions. The chapter after this period ends starts with the business of doing major surgery on poor risk patients can be trying and heartbreaking at any time. And when it is done regularly, it can have an increasingly deleterious effect upon those who are doing it. It was therefore inevitable that the deluge should have its after effects, not only on the patients who survived, but also on the surgeons who contributed to that survival. The first of the swamp men to give outward evidence of what they had all been through was Hawkeye Pierce. And the first man to get caught in the fallout was the anesthesiologist, Ugly John. Ugly John being one of the many nicknames that people are given throughout this book.

[Craig]

What a fun name to give someone. Jesus Christ.

[Andrew]

And even that incident is like. Hawkeye was kind of a jerk to Ugly John a couple of times.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

There's no big breakdown. There's no grappling with. With the. With the. I don't. I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over.

[Craig]

No, no, I. Yeah, I understand. But even.

[Andrew]

Even when the book faints toward having a. Having a bigger thing to say about the toll that this takes on the characters, it still. It's still sort of just like. And then he was grouchy for a while and Then he was grouchy and then. And then, you know, like a new. A new CEO comes on for a bit and Hawkeye is like, disrespectful toward him. But then he sees how good Hawkeye works at surgery and then he, like, begrudgingly respects him.

[Craig]

Well, and it's interesting too, you know, arc our issues with it as a work of war fiction when it is also worth considering it as a work of medical fiction, I suppose. And like, is there. I don't. I don't know that I have a argument here to make necessarily, but I could imagine that what we are responding to is certainly thinking about the books we've read about soldiers and things like that, which a doctor is going to have like a different experience. Right. It's like he's not out there.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

Taking lives. He's, you know, explicitly, they're trying to save lives and has to kind of build up whatever emotional walls he can to survive.

[Andrew]

He's not taking lives. But there is, you know, as they're being. As they're being sent back home. At the end of the book, Duke does say to Hawkeye, you know, this is the first day in 18 months where I haven't killed somebody.

[Craig]

Wow. Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's not, you know, they're not. They're not the ones who, yeah. Are like, initiating the killing, but people still die under their. Under their care every day. So. Yeah.

[Craig]

There's a quote from the. The Critics at Large piece that I read that's talking about the film. Maybe comparing the film and the book. Overall, there is meant to be and is a residue of sadness in the romping of these men who pretend to be boys. An accumulation of fatigues and stresses, a sorrow for lost lives and lost time. I think that's mostly about the Altman film that is like taking this book that I think Altman did not care for.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And is saying, wow, it's a shame that. That these are the types of people who. Or like, this is what folks did to get through the war maybe is kind of an argument that maybe that film's making. It doesn't seem like the book is making that argument in your.

[Andrew]

No, it's.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, again, talking about the. The bit where Duke and Hawkeye are being sent home at the end of their, like, 18 month rotation. What, what the book is overwhelmingly concerned about is. Is not. I think, I think one of the big things you talked about, the Hurt Locker. I think one of the big things, if I'm thinking about fiction that talks about, like, the war on terror, the Iraq war, that kind of stuff. I think one of the big themes that that work has focused on is, like, how. How people came back from that conflict feeling like their lives, like, didn't fit anymore or, like, didn't.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, it was hard to come back from that.

[Craig]

Yep. Yep.

[Andrew]

And I imagine, you know, to some extent it's. It's hard to come back from every war, but, like, that's not what these two guys are thinking.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, the book is more. It's talking about, you know, these are two men who were thrown together by circumstance, who come from very different backgrounds, who may or may not ever see each other again. Like, there. There's some, like, some very pre. Internet moments.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

When they're. When they're talking to each other and making. And making plans to see each other back stateside, and they, you know, even. Even as they are all making the plans, each of them individually suspects that it's not going to actually happen at the end.

[Craig]

That's fat. That's a fascinating observation. I love that.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Like, they.

[Andrew]

They talk about that, but, you know, they talk about that, but then they also say, you know, you could. If you ever come to see me in 50 days or in 50 years, I will be happy to see you whenever that. Whenever it is that our paths, like, cross.

[Craig]

And that is.

[Andrew]

There are.

[Craig]

So I'm just thinking of how many movies I watched as a kid about kind of mid 20th century, and then, like, there's a reuniting of somebody that, like, I haven't seen them since the war or. I think the thing that comes to mind actually is A League of Their Own when, like, all the women haven't seen each other since they played baseball together during the war or in Titanic

[Andrew]

when that old lady hasn't seen her necklace in a really long time.

[Craig]

Well, but okay, that one doesn't hold up because I don't think the necklace would have a Facebook account. Like, what I'm thinking of is, like, how all of those people, if what they did started in the mid-2000s or even in the 80s, and then they all had access to Facebook. Like, all. Dottie would know all the other players who were posting, you know, weird memes.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

By the time she saw them at

[Andrew]

the opening stuff or whatever.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, you'd be able to have found your group to exclude the guy you didn't like from when you were all together. It's just. It's just different to, like, that is a. A life experience that Folks of our generation can consider, but, like, will probably never truly experience of that kind of, like, people can truly just like, fade away, see everyone's.

[Andrew]

Every once in a while it will hit you with a. With a deep observation that does make you think and that will, like, stick with you for a little bit. But, you know, to finish, my thought about like, what the book is thinking about as it closes is it's very much about how these men were thrown together by circumstance and they like, became unlikely friends and now maybe they won't see each other again. And it's weird to be contemplating that transition between, you know, we were. We were close, we lived together. This is like a singular time in our lives that we'll never have again. Yeah. And like, even as they transition from like, different military installations to like civilian life, they like, sense their conversation becoming like more stilted and awkward because there's some kind of. There's some kind of connection that's. That's fading, that's not gonna come back.

[Craig]

Yeah. That. And that feels like it could be a thing that Hornberger was like, this is why I gotta write the book. Because like, we. We were in this shared experience. I gotta write something down that speaks to the thing that we all experienced while we were there.

[Andrew]

And it was so like, so singular and so absurd and so like. And. And war isn't all horrors. It's also like people having a bunch of downtime and not knowing what to do with it. Like, there. There is a bunch of just like quotidian slice of life of stuff in here that I think is kind of interesting to. To contemplate.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Again, I don't like thinking about the. The sort of early 2000s military fiction that I'm. That I'm. That I've digested or that I've experienced. Like, I don't think a ton of it has been about like, you know, what's the day to day experience of somebody who's. Who's in Afghanistan or Iraq or something? Like. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying it's not been the thing that I've seen the most often. Like usually when it's. Usually when it's brought into something like, I don't know, I'm thinking about the show Barry, that people. Where that was part of that character's backstory, but it was just like, it was. It was a couple of really horrible moments that like, sort of crystallized who he was. And that's what you're concerned about going back there to access. It's not about like. And here's.

[Craig]

That's not what the show is.

[Andrew]

Here's me and somebody goofing around in our downtime in bag. No, Barry is actually what that went like.

[Craig]

You know, Barry is actually name checked in that New York times MASH at 50 piece as kind of a, a descendant of MASH and the dramedy that MASH became over time.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Along with stuff like, which I thought was interesting, like Orange is the New Black, which is like a, a serious setting with an ensemble cast that is interested in being funny. But that's not all it's up to.

[Andrew]

It's not all it's up to. And it does have bigger things to say. But also a lot of the, like, a lot of where the comedy is coming from is like, we do just have to have day to day lives.

[Craig]

Yes. Even.

[Andrew]

Even in here, just weird, funny stuff happens.

[Craig]

Yep, Yep.

[Andrew]

And it's worth, it is worth depicting that.

[Craig]

But I do, but I do.

[Andrew]

But I do think that the, the work that does that, that, that is the most interesting to me is, is like heightening, almost heightening those, those day to day moments by also grappling with the bigger questions. And this book isn't interested in doing that.

[Craig]

No, no.

[Andrew]

Which is like, fine. I guess I do think the overwhelming experience of reading it in 2026, like, if you're just picking it up, underwhelming description is like, it's super. It's pretty racist. Well, it's pretty wicked racist.

[Craig]

Yes. Like, you're like, oh, let me go back and read Mash, find out what folks 60 years ago were thinking about the experience of doctors in war. As I look at the news or as I, you know, live or have relatives impacted by this conflict, or am I impacted by this conflict and you're like, oh, okay, they're just like racist dudes playing golf and football. Yeah, like, well, that's not helpful to me right now.

[Andrew]

There's one bit where they have like a 17 year old houseboy, a Korean houseboy.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Who is. And, and some of these dangerous. Yeah, some of these, you know, some young Koreans just like work in the camp and they help with, you know, running stuff around or whatever. And this, this boy's name is Hojan. Hojan is then like enlisted in the war and has to go fight. And then he comes back through the MASH wounded and they fix him up and they're like, we gotta get him out of here and we gotta send him somewhere. Like, let's send him to college back in the States. Let's. Let's pull some strings and make that happen. And then they have to raise a bunch of money. And to raise money, Trapper John, like, grows a big beard and they mount him to a cross and they drive him around from military base to military base distributing autographed pictures of him as Jesus Christ. And they raised several thousand dollars this way to send Hojan to college in America. I don't remember if I had a point in this except to describe, like, another bonkers thing that happens.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

This is, like, weird stuff keeps happening.

[Craig]

This is why I'm nervous to ever go read the novel Forrest Gump, because I also know that the movie Forrest Gump has problems that, like, I encountered it at an early enough age to not really think about those. And I was like, interesting Tom Hanks movie that I'm interested in. Fun sound.

[Andrew]

Oh, look at that feather.

[Craig]

Haley Joel Osmond. I'm on board shrimp. And it. As I've become an adult, I have reckless. I've kind of had to reckon with the boomer pablum that is that movie a little bit.

[Andrew]

And it's been years since you've been to a bubblegum shrimp.

[Craig]

It has been. The last one I encountered was in the Mall of America.

[Andrew]

Did you go there?

[Craig]

I walked by it. I did not.

[Andrew]

When's the last time you went to a bubblegum shrimp?

[Craig]

Couldn't tell you. When's the last time you went to a bubble gum show?

[Andrew]

I've never been.

[Craig]

Okay, so.

[Andrew]

See, that. See, my answer is different from your answer. Mine is I've never been. And yours is I couldn't tell you. Well, because they'd have to kill me.

[Craig]

That's true. They would. They would. They would have to kill me. But I. It's similarly. I'm just. I just don't know what's in that book. Just like I. I have not rewatched that movie in a long time.

[Andrew]

Maybe you should read the book and the season.

[Craig]

I thought about it with sun or whatever. Yeah, he, like, goes to the Moon. I don't know. I've also, like Urkel. I've also thought about. I've also thought, like the. The book that's. Some of our discussions make me think of is I. I do think I might want to go sometime, maybe in the next year, cover the Things They Carried by Tim o'. Brien. That's about Vietnam. And I. I do wonder if there is just kind of an inflection point on Vietnam that this book is operating in front of. Versus Our. Your. Yours and I's generations understanding of war.

[Andrew]

And I mean, I think.

[Craig]

I think us from.

[Andrew]

From there. There was a. I think the. The New York Times obituary of Hornberger.

[Craig]

Oh, interesting.

[Andrew]

Find this really quick because it did have an interesting quote in it from his son. Yeah. William Hornberger, who's the. The son of Richard. Yes. H. Richard says he liked the movie because he thought it followed his original intent very closely. But my father was a political conservative. He did not like the liberal tendencies that Alan Alda portrayed Hawkeye Pierce as having. My father didn't write an anti war book. He added, it was a humorous account of his work with serious parts thrown in about the awful kind of work it was and how difficult and challenging it was. Was. I don't think that Hornberger really particularly sees. Is thinking about Vietnam at all.

[Craig]

No, it doesn't seem like it.

[Andrew]

Like, you keep looking back, you keep bringing it in because the.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

When you had. By the time this book that he'd been working on for like a decade finally got published, like, Vietnam happened to be at a high pitch.

[Craig]

Well, and I keep bringing it in because the two, like, landmark works of film and television that it spawned are both in response to the Vietnam War.

[Andrew]

Yes. And are they, like. They're more interested in. In drawing those parallels?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Hornberger is not interested.

[Craig]

No, no, no. And any modern reader like yourself of this novel is either coming at it from the perspective of somebody who has lived through the war on terror or at the very least understands what Vietnam was.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So, yeah, it's just a different. It's a Through the Looking Glass kind of thing. I think a little bit of popular sentiment around what war is in America.

[Andrew]

So. Yeah, like, it's. I think I'm glad I read it. On balance, it's just. It's a very strange little book.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

That spawned, like, a seminal TV franchise.

[Craig]

We've encountered these before. I'm struggling to think of an example of. But when you go back to a source material and you're like. Like this doesn't feel as hefty as all of the others. Like all of the reasons I'm bringing to reading it in the first place.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think there are. There are adaptations that eclipse their source material, and sometimes that's just because, like, TV or a movie or whatever is easier to watch.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

And sometimes it's because the adaptation manages to discover something more, like, more memorable, more like important, more. I don't know, like, it, like, it transcends the original Material, like, if you're thinking about, like, I don't know, think about, like, the Lord of the Rings movies and then those books. Like, those movies did not make those books fade. If anything, it just, like, called more attention to them. Yes, but. And you know, there were people buying MASH books because William Butterworth was writing all those cash ins. And you don't write that cash ins if people aren't, like, buying them. But. But people. Yeah, people don't. People don't talk about the show in the book in the same breath. Like, it's the kind. It's the kind of thing where I knew about the show and then it was a surprise to me that it had been adapted from a book because that. Yeah, that's how much it's eclipsed the thing that it came from.

[Craig]

And they came in such rapid succession, too. Like, 68 is the novel, 70 is the film. What? 70. 73 is the show, 72 is the show. It's like, it's pretty quick that the show eclipses the mo. Let I may I dare draw a comparison to the Ninja Turtles that we just discussed that, like, I mean, you

[Andrew]

can if you want.

[Craig]

Those comic books happen, and they're a big deal in the comic space, but it becomes like a global IP property on the backs of, like, toys and a cartoon and a movie that all come in very quick succession relative to other. Like the fact that Batman was the year before that movie and Batman had existed for 50 years or whatever. And so, like, I think there's also some kind of some time compression happening where the biggest things happened really close to the novel, the film and the TV show kind of happen in such a way that completely crowd out the fact that the novel was, like, decent, but maybe not, but. And also probably more that the novel was, like, fine. And some people found some good material in there, so. All right.

[Andrew]

So, yeah, it's a weird one.

[Craig]

Thanks for reading it and tell me about it.

[Andrew]

Welcome. Yeah, my impression is not entirely negative, but it is just a strain. It's a strange book that I found hard to distill.

[Craig]

Yes, that's fair.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's just a bunch of little weird anecdotes. And also the Korean War is happening.

[Craig]

Are you brave enough to say that war is bad?

[Andrew]

I. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go on the record as saying that war is not great, great, and we should endeavor not to do it. If only somebody would invent another way to resolve differences and then we could use that.

[Craig]

The Olympics haven't worked, but I think that was everyone's hope and not enough people can get behind. Like, the best country at bobsled is the best country.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And so we have. We still have to do war, I guess. Yeah, it's a pretty big bummer.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

I had high hopes that Cool Runnings would have solved this by now. That's mash.

[Andrew]

That smash, baby.

[Craig]

The monster Mash.

[Andrew]

Wind us down.

[Craig]

All right, welcome everyone to the end of our podcast where you can send us an email@overdue podmail.com Tell us if you have ever watched the show MASH. Are there episodes that me, Craig, someone who's never watched MASH before, should watch other than the finale? Because I feel like maybe I shouldn't watch finale without watching other parts of the show. Send us messages on social media at Overdue Pod. Are there MASH memes? I don't know. Let me know. Our theme song is composed by Nick Lauren. Just Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is the Internet website. We have all the links that Craig just mentioned. We have the schedule for the show. We have back episodes. We have ways that you can get the books if you want to read along. I don't know if this one is one that you necessarily want to read along, but if you just want to experience it for yourself, that is an option that's available to you. Patreon.com overdue pod is a way to support the show financially, directly, and also get access to our Discord community. Been a lot of good Garfield content the last couple of days. We have an ad free version of the show. We have our newsletter, dusty bookshelves. We have Tokyo Drifters, our long read series about the manga Akira, and many more things. Patreon.com overdue pod you do make the show possible when you support us that way. Thank you to everybody who is doing it, has done it, is thinking about doing it. Yeah, that makes a big difference.

[Craig]

Next month we have some special stuff lined up for you. Keep an eye out.

[Andrew]

Keep an eye out. We're not 100% ready to tell you

[Craig]

about it yet, but know that it's gonna be fun and we're excited to share. I think our plan for next week, I think you will very much enjoy.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

At the time of our recording.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I don't want to get too inside baseball about it, but you might get outside baseball.

[Craig]

Yeah. Sometimes I think this next episode will have a real bite to it.

[Andrew]

Okay, everybody, thank you for listening to our podcast for another week until we talk to you next time, please try to be happy. That was a Headgum podcast. Yeah. So like, every once in a while.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

You get hit by with a. With an observation that. That's, That's. That's very interesting and very like that. I think your nose might be bleeding.

[Craig]

It's not. It's my finger. I had a hangnail.

[Andrew]

It's not my. But you got like a. No, it's smudge of red something.

[Craig]

I know because I'm trying to deal with the fact that it's on my finger. It's fine.

[Andrew]

Can you time code me that you're just, like, bleeding from somewhere?

[Craig]

Yeah, I had a hangnail. Craig is bleeding. It's fine.

[Andrew]

Get you to the mash.

[Craig]

You gotta get me to the mash. You can leave this in at the end if you want.