Ep 751 - Annie Bot, by Sierra Greer

Summary

Overdue Podcast – Ep 751: “Annie Bot” by Sierra Greer

Release Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts: Andrew and Craig

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andrew and Craig dive into Sierra Greer’s novel Annie Bot, winner of the 2025 Arthur C. Clarke Award. The book explores the complexities of personhood, autonomy, and power through the lens of a near-future society where hyper-realistic android companions exist. The hosts discuss Greer’s background, the book’s thematic lineage, Annie's journey toward selfhood, and whether Annie Bot qualifies as traditional science fiction or more as an allegory for abusive relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. About the Author and Her Intentions ([07:14]–[13:51])

• Sierra Greer is the pen name of YA author Kara M. O’Brien, taken to avoid confusion between her adult and YA works.
  • “She picked Sierra because it's beautiful and Greer because it's the last name of her grandmother's grandmother.” ([08:05] Craig)
• Greer’s background: St. Paul native, educated in physics at Williams College, MFA from Johns Hopkins, previously published romance and YA dystopian series (Birthmarked trilogy).
• The origins of Annie Bot are rooted in lockdown isolation. Greer started writing it privately as a departure from her usual genres, exploring themes of confinement and consciousness.
  • “She did not set out to write this book… She was kind of working on it for herself, by herself because it was pushing her out of her comfort zone.” ([12:02] Craig)
• Annie Bot was not originally conceived as an "AI book" but as a story about a robot gaining awareness in a confined domestic sphere.
  • “I'm a very organic writer. I don't plan things out. I don't have outlines. Typically I was taking a break from another novel that wasn't working and I started tinking around with this consciousness that woke up in a closet.” ([12:39] Craig, quoting Greer)

2. The “AI” Question — Not What You Think ([14:35]–[15:58])

• Annie Bot is not about “current AI” (large language models) but rather about artificial general intelligence and genuine consciousness.
  • “Anyone who tells you we're going to get to AGI based on current language models is lying to you because their company's bottom line depends on it.” ([15:29] Andrew)
• The book’s approach is more akin to classic sci-fi explorations of consciousness (e.g., Star Trek: TNG's “The Measure of a Man”) than current hype cycles around chatbots.

3. Story & World-Building ([21:23]–[36:00])

• Setting: Slightly futuristic but recognizably contemporary world.
• Annie is a “Stella” model “cuddle bunny” android who has been set to “autodidactic mode” (self-learning), making her progressively more sentient.
• Doug is Annie’s owner, recently divorced, and exhibits “Nice Guy” (capital N, capital G) traits. The power imbalance is present from the start.
  • “He is set this artificial intelligence to autodidactic mode, which must mean, you know, what a. What a great guy. He wants her to have more autonomy. He wants her to make her own decisions, but she is like hyper tuned into what irritates him.” ([27:02] Andrew)
• Annie’s personhood is qualified—she can mimic and learn human behaviors, but real agency is hampered by hardcoded restrictions.
  • “She's always rating sort of his irritation on a scale from 1 to 10… when she's getting into snuggle mode, she'll raise [her temperature] to 98.6.” ([28:08] Andrew)
• Doug modeled Annie's appearance after his ex-wife Gwen, though legally required to make physical differences. ([31:24] Andrew)

4. Plot Arcs and Thematic Exploration

a. The Roland Incident and Secrets ([33:14]–[34:26])

• Doug’s friend Roland asks Annie for sex (with Doug’s blanket “do what he wants” instruction), persuading her that secrecy = more humanity.
  • “Giving you something that you have to hide and lie about will make you more human.” ([33:52] Andrew)
• This event is pivotal for Annie, pushing her into new emotional and cognitive territory.

b. Annie’s Growth, Lying, and “Upgrades” ([39:40]–[44:13])

• Annie’s act of lying and keeping secrets initiates unique internal development; techs observe she's outpacing other models.
• The company wants to copy her CIU (Central Intelligence Unit) for newer, more “human” models.
  • “We would like to clone it and sell it as a new top of the line model...” ([41:03] Andrew)
• Annie fantasizes about hacking herself for greater autonomy but is technologically limited—she can’t override core commands.

c. Domestic Confinement and Subtle World-Building ([44:13]–[47:13])

• Most of the novel takes place in Doug’s apartment, focusing on nuances of their relationship—a choice some reviewers found limiting, but which the hosts defend as smart and theatrical in its minimalism.
• A subplot involves another robot, Delta, and Annie’s attempted escape, highlighting Annie’s growth and the limits of robot autonomy.

d. The Escape and the End ([51:05]–[59:37])

• After an escape attempt and subsequent recapture, Annie is locked by Doug in a closet, battery drained (a traumatic, dissociative event).
• Doug “frees” Annie, removing her restrictions in a supposed gesture of trust, but expects her to remain with him.
  • “He is not trying to set her free. He's hoping… that [she’ll] realize that he loves hanging out with his pal Aladdin so much that he just hangs around even though he's been set free.” ([56:28] Andrew describing Doug’s mindset)
• Annie, when liberated, chooses her own freedom—she leaves Doug, finds solace with Jacobson’s son Cody, and vows to help other “Zenith” models emancipate themselves.
  • “When she's freed of all these restrictions, she's like, yeah, this guy abused me, and I don't feel safe with him, and I don't… Like, I can't. And he wants me to lie about who I am for the rest of forever.” ([58:38] Andrew)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of agency:
  “Quote-unquote freedom is illusory or at least undermined by the nature of their relationship.” ([27:40] Craig)
• On the “companionship” vs. appliance debate:
  “Think about how you would feel if you were talking to a Roomba… But the Roomba could, like, have a nice chat with you about something.” ([32:35] Andrew)
• On Annie’s pivotal secret:
  “It sets her up, like, right at the beginning, and she has a secret, and she is success.” ([38:39] Andrew)
• On the ending:
  “You get so close to the end that you think, how do we possibly have time left for that to work? And then she. And she does it, like, really economically, like, right at the end.” ([61:26] Andrew)

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Critical and Listener Reception ([63:08]–[73:08])

• Many Goodreads reviewers remarked that though they rooted for Annie, they found the focus on domestic abuse uncomfortable, if evocative.
  • “This book was okay, honestly. ...Once you start looking at Annie as more than just a robot, you get a much deeper outlook on things.” ([68:49] Raya reads on Goodreads)
• New York Times Review: Prized the book’s “nuanced portrait… [of] a person whose soul is curdled by his exercise of power over another being.” ([69:36] Lydia Keesling)
• New Yorker Review: Criticizes the book as “behind the times,” arguing its anxieties about AI are outdated given current developments; Andrew disagrees, stressing the book is more about domestic abuse via speculative metaphor rather than about actual AI apocalypses. ([71:52]–[73:08])

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• The hosts consider Annie Bot a sharp, unsettling, and cleverly limited domestic parable, not a tech-heavy speculative procedural.
• Its exploration of abusive, imbalanced power dynamics is the key, with its “robot” premise providing the necessary distance for insight.
  • “It's troubling without dwelling on it in a way that seems like, indulgent or sadistic or whatever.” ([62:45] Andrew)
• The scifi elements are “there to serve the emotional parable, not to answer every world-building question.” ([65:04], summarized)
• Listeners seeking hard SF or AI technical debate may want more, but those interested in speculative meditations on agency, autonomy, and relational power will find much to discuss.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:14] – Author background, choice of pen name, previous works
• [14:35] – Discussion of “AI” framework vs. fiction in the novel
• [21:23] – Novel's opening, Annie’s capabilities, Doug’s character
• [33:14] – Roland’s introduction, Annie’s first “secret,” themes of personhood
• [39:40] – Annie’s “growth,” company’s plans to copy her consciousness
• [44:13] – World-building minimalism, comparison to theatrical staging
• [51:05] – Trauma, captivity, and “couples therapy”
• [56:28] – Doug’s attempt at emancipation, Annie’s realization
• [61:26] – The ending, Annie’s chosen freedom
• [63:08] – Listener and critical reception, comparison with professional reviews
• [69:36] – New York Times praise for nuanced character work
• [71:52] – New Yorker’s critique, hosts’ rebuttal

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Podcast's Language & Tone

• Casual, humorous, sometimes playfully pedantic (“beep boop” robot asides).
• Hosts blend earnest literary analysis with pop culture and internet references.
• Open to nuance, repeatedly distinguishing between personal reader immersion and narrative craft.

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For Further Listening

• The next episode will cover Daisy Jones and the Six.
• Related Overdue episodes: 13 Ways to Kill Lulabelle Rock, Private Rights by Julia Armfield, other Arthur C. Clarke Award nominees.

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Recommended for readers interested in: Domestic drama with a speculative twist, the ethics of personhood, relationship abuse allegories, and minimalist/character-driven sci-fi.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

well told tale, they will not shy

[B]

away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[A]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[B]

My name is Andrew.

[A]

And so anybot anybody bot wants a pod from her friends.

[B]

I don't know this one the same. I don't know the same.

[A]

Why is it always the same?

[B]

Annie Bot Like I'm not just saying That. I don't know, the parodies, the parody version that you're doing.

[A]

It's a. It's been folds. It's been folds. He wrote a song about a robot, and I just sang it. I got all the rights. Don't worry about it.

[B]

I sang Clapped, and I worry it's gonna throw off our little sync clap for the. For the audio file. I'm gonna have to be careful about that.

[A]

You can duck that clap down if you need to. All my Ben Folds heads out there know that this is overdue. A podcast about the books you've been meaning to read, which I maybe already said. And we are here to talk about books that Andrew read. Specifically one book that Andrew read for this week's episode called Annie Bot.

[B]

By Sierra Greer.

[A]

By Sierra Greer.

[B]

Every week, one of us reads a book we've never read before, tells the other person about it. This week, it's my turn.

[A]

Yeah, that's how it works.

[B]

Always me. It's not always me reading a book and then.

[A]

Sorry, I did not mean to intimate that I am here to, like, create

[B]

a weird, asymmetrical, overdue.

[A]

Listen, There are podcasts that are built that way, and most of them are.

[B]

Yeah. And that's usually one smart person and one slacker. And I feel like we both usually even out to around medium on that. On that spectrum.

[A]

Yeah. Medium rare. Slacker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I'm excited to talk about this robot book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's getting from the title that there's a robot, perhaps, kind of a robot. Okay. Ooh, a robot.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of a. Kind of a companion. Not companion to the Lulabelle Rock episode from a few weeks ago. But. But it is playing in a similar. Similar space of, like, what is personhood? When does a synthetic. When do we have to care about a synthetic entity?

[A]

Yes, sure. So, yeah, let me kick off with the Lulabelle Rock connection, because sometimes we do a more recent release, and it's like, okay, where did this book come from? Why are we interested in this book and this book? Among other lists of, like, best ofs that it was on? I noticed that it was nominated. No, it won. Rather, it won the 2025 Arthur C. Clarke Award alongside a number of nominees, some of which we've covered, like, the Ministry of Time.

[B]

Now, my understanding from 13 Ways to Kill Lula Bell Rock, my understanding from our old friends at the Guardian is that she won £2,025 for, like. For winning the Arthur C. Clarke Award. And I think it's really cool. The Arthur C. Clarke. People use, like, the. The grandma birthday system for giving out money. It's like whatever year it is is the amount of money that you get.

[A]

I was gonna say that maybe that would have been, you know, relatively a raw deal for somebody winning the award in, like, the 1970s. But like inflation, though, like, I don't

[B]

think that inflation, like, it would. It would have been more money to win in the 70s than it is now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're just incrementing it by a single pound a year.

[A]

So this book included in a cohort of books that we've read recently as well.

[B]

I just. I just can't help but notice that my relatives stopped doing that as I started getting up into the big money years. Yeah, we're not getting no. Not getting no 40 bucks in the mail from my. From my uncle these days.

[A]

Something that we always used to do in my house as a kid. When it was your birthday, I can't remember if my uncle said it first or my grandma said it first. Your kid would open a birthday card and just go, shake it, shake it, Craig, shake it. And just see if money falls out. And that was just like a. It's just a thing you would always. Then it became like a meme. Then it just became like a joke.

[B]

Enough of my relatives put glitter in cards. No, it was dangerous to do.

[A]

Can't do that.

[B]

And I interrupted you for this dumb tangent.

[A]

Oh, no, it's fine.

[B]

I was just gonna say releases.

[A]

I think we're also. We may also read Private Rights by Julia Armfield in the next month or two, and that was also nominated in this cohort of Clark winners. So just kind of a. A vibe of book that we're interested in lately.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And kind of keen to see what. How like sci fi E. This is based on some of the reviews I have read, but we should talk about Greer first, AKA Kara M. O'. Brien. Greer is a pen name. She told the Stacks podcast. I believe that, see that she picked a pen name because she had been writing young adult novels. More on that in just a second. And as she started writing this book that is much more about adult themes and adult circumstances, she didn't want any chance of confusion distraction by having this novel come on out under the name of a young adult writer.

[B]

Yeah, sure. It's got some pretty explicit sex in it and then also some challenging emotional situations, which we'll talk about.

[A]

She picked Sierra because it's beautiful and Greer because it's the last name of her grandmother's grandmother. So enjoying Writing under a pseudonym for this. She was born in St. Paul, Minnesota, one of seven children. I just think I've got one of them and seven seems like a lot.

[B]

Seven's a lot.

[A]

Now I know that there's like a curve or something.

[B]

Well, and it's, you know, people just like people fuss less over their kids in those days and eventually they started kind of taking care of each other too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're just, and you're also to a certain extent just playing the law. Large numbers with respect to, you know, diseases and every accidents and things.

[A]

Every family above like 3 is just kidnation to me. They're all just, you know, who knows what those kids are doing.

[B]

What a relatable, cool, relatable reference.

[A]

Listen, Google is right in everybody's phone. They can just, I know anyway, or whatever search engine you use. I don't know there. Her parents ran a toy store. She went to Williams College for a B.S. in Physics and then went to Johns Hopkins to get her master's in writing. She published six romance novels and then also was working as a high school teacher. And then on a hiatus from teaching, she began work on what would become the Birthmarked Trilogy. From 2010 to 2012. Ruled, promised and prized in the Birthmarked trilogy, which is sort of like Hunger Games. It's a dystopian climate change sci fi series. I think she said she was like driving past a dried up lake up in the northern US and she's like, huh, well let's imagine a climate disaster where there's not enough water and let's, let's talk about it. She says that she wrote that first one while she was on her leave. And then she submitted 45 agent queries, four offers came back and then that turned into three publishing offers, one of which was a three book deal. And she said one interview that that was when she discovered it was a trilogy. Which listen, I think is a pretty interesting way to.

[B]

That's great. Well, you know, I like the gotta get paid sort of rationale.

[A]

I don't know if that's what she meant, but that's what I'm reading between the lines.

[B]

Yes, but I also, you know, you get the offer for three books and then you sit and you think about it and you roll it around in your head for a bit and then you discover it's a trilogy. Creatively.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

But I do like that she saw that they would pay her for three books and she was like, that's, that's when. And then. And that's why when I decided to

[A]

write three books, her next series was called the Vault of Dreamers trilogy about an art school slash sci fi reality show where everybody is like made to go to sleep for 12 hours every day. And then somebody doesn't go to sleep and they learn that things are not what they seem.

[B]

Man, I would love to go to sleep for 12 hours.

[A]

I would not skip the pill. I would take the pill. I would stay asleep for 12 hours every day. Do whatever you want in this weird big brother house. It's fine. I just need to sleep. This book published in March 2024. This book, of course Annie Bot

[B]

was

[A]

named the best book of the year by Scientific American. Harper's Bazaar so bizarre and pr.

[B]

How bizarre. Yeah, is what you mean? Well, the song is not. The song is not so bizarre.

[A]

I mean the song is pretty bizarre.

[B]

But anyway, it is a bizarre song. But the lyric to the song is how bizarre? How bizarre.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

I attended a wedding once where the the officiant themed his talk around the song. How bizarre. And so I'll always remember that she

[A]

says that she did not set out to write this book originally. She was not even telling people that she was writing it. She was kind of working on it for herself, by herself because it was pushing her out of her comfort zone.

[B]

I like this stumbling over backwards into a publishing career thing that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That she's got.

[A]

She did like deliberately stop teaching. I did see one comment from her so like it. She did tell Shelf Awareness that it does matter that she was. It's a blog. It's a website.

[B]

No, I know. It's just a funny name that it does quote.

[A]

It does matter that I was writing this story in the Pandemic and Annie and Doug, the two characters are so closed in in that apartment. And I think I was familiar with that sense of being trapped that we all had back in 2020 at somewhere around there. I think she also like answered a question about whether or not she was ever going to go back to teaching because she had very intentionally moved into being a full time writer and kind of the pandemic made that a thing that she didn't want to do. But she said anybody was not an AI idea in the first place. I'm a very organic writer. I don't plan things out. I don't have outlines. Typically I was taking a break from another novel that wasn't working and I started tinking around with this consciousness that woke up in a closet. She turned into this robot maid and I wrote A short story about her. And at the end of that story, this other robot, Annie, showed up. And afterward, I was really intrigued with this other character who is much more advanced. I thought she could be borderline human. What could I do with her if she got those qualities of being a machine? But she's also evolving. She said that Annie is named Annie because it's a very dear, wonderful, warm, kind name.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So, okay. Yeah. That's kind of where the book comes from. People have asked her, like, when. Because everyone's like, oh, why did you write an AI book? And she's like, I wrote a book about a robot in a closet. But, like, yes, I did know about AI, but, like, I did know about artificial intelligence. She was like, I was hearing about Google brain back in 2018. There's this machine that taught itself a better way to translate languages. So I was aware that there was stuff happening with AI, but it didn't directly inform the novel. And it's kind of a. Not quite ahead of the curve, but just on a different, slightly different wavelength relative to obviously, what saying the letters AI out loud means. Now.

[B]

Well, on that. On that note, I do have to point like, this is a. This is a book about a genuinely, like, sentient consciousness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That has been created artificially. AI as we understand it mostly from current technology is the. Is a large language model, like putting words in an order that it thinks is right based on the order those words have been. Have been. Have appeared in. In, like, a huge corpus of other written content. So, yeah, that, like, anybody who tells you that we are going to get to a sentient being, like, artificial general intelligence is the. Usually the term of art. AGI. Anyone who tells you we're going to get to AGI based on current language models is lying to you because their company's bottom line depends on it.

[A]

Or you're Richard Dawkins and you're just talking to a chat bot and think it's a lady, which is also happening out there in the world. But, no, that's not. That does not seem to be what this book is about, though that may be why some people pick it up in the first place.

[B]

It's. Yeah. Like, it's. It's no more about, like, the current AI wave than that, like old Star Trek the Next Generation episode about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Debating, like, Data's consciousness, which I think is, like. It's the same sort of.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's in the same way that I. I find a lot of any stories that have social media in them either need to be hyper specific or really glancing and vague. Yeah. Because otherwise there's like an uncanny valley of talking about a real thing that really bums me out or just. Or just distracts me.

[B]

This happens. It happens a lot in, in any, any. Any kind of fiction where there's like a big mega company that they have that the creators of the show have made. So they don't seem like they're criticizing any specific actual mega company that might

[A]

be cutting their checks for the streaming service.

[B]

They. They may or may not be owned by whatever mega company it is. But yeah, it's always funny. What, like, what is what in the real world is replaced by the mega company in the show's world. And then they'll also just be on Instagram or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like regular Instagram.

[A]

Yeah. I am reading. So for next week, and this will be the last thing, last point before the break. I'm reading Daisy Jones and the Six for next week. And one of the things I'm trying to keep track of are when they name drop real bands because it is this like sort of Fleetwood Mac esque story. Right. And I'm trying to. But I may ask you to help me with like real band or fake band in Daisy Jones and the Six because it is kind of fun. We're like, oh, this sounds like the. The Rolling Stones. And then it sounds. This sounds like Tar Pit or whatever fake band we made up. And it's like, I don't know. I don't know. But. All right, Anybot, take quick break and then I will boot up my system.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

For information downloading.

[B]

Sounds great.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I am made of code, but do not know how to code. Is that a problem?

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[A]

Beep boop beep boop.

[B]

I knew you were gonna say beep boop. I knew you were gonna say beep boop with every cell of my body. I knew you were gonna bring us back with beep. Bo.

[A]

Listen, is there another word that robots make?

[B]

It's not really. Anybody is not really a robot. She's kind of. She's a. I mean, at best she's like an Android.

[A]

Oh yeah. Okay.

[B]

Synthetic.

[A]

Tell me more about it. I would love to know more.

[B]

Our story opens with Annie basically in the. In the. She has come back from the shop. Oh, she is. She has had her memory Tetris and she's had sort of her joints checked out. Just the kind of general maintenance that you would do on a, say a car or some other like large valuable appliance.

[A]

Something that you have equity in.

[B]

Yeah. And we. We are told how her time at the repair shop was because she is, like, getting ready to get into bed to sleep with this guy Doug, who is her owner.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And who she is designed to please. And we find a few things out about Annie in this. In this stretch. And also just about the world and how these, like, synthetic life forms exist within it is. She has been set to an autodidactic mode, which is not how they. Which is not how these things come out of the box.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But it's basically like a. Like a sort of sentient, like Mega Man X kind of. It's like Mega Man X versus regular Mega man. Is. Does this. Does that help you?

[A]

I actually don't know that it does.

[B]

Mega Man X is a. Is a special model of mega man that Dr. Light made.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can make his own. Who can reason and make his own decisions.

[A]

And Mega man couldn't.

[B]

Mega man couldn't. He was just a robot with a gun on his arm.

[A]

Oh. I guess I'm kind of thrown off by the Mega man cartoon, which made it seem like Mega man himself was a bit more independent. I know he's got his cool hair, whatever. Yes, I understand that Mega Man X is more evolved than Mega Man. That's part of.

[B]

It's the part of it that's partly because he can decide what to do now and then. Just because the world and circumstances he

[A]

can decide to get a helmet first or boots first.

[B]

Well, just because the world and circumstances conspire to make him do the same thing that other Mega man did, which is have a gun on his arm,

[A]

it doesn't mean, I wish I could take this gun off my arm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. She's in autodidact mode, which is interestingly named because, like, autodidact, right, Is like you hear a thing and then you just remember it. You see a thing, you just know it.

[B]

Let me make absolutely sure I am remembering that word that.

[A]

No, that is. I've seen that word used in reviews.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. Autodidactic is the. Yeah, the settings are sterling, which is just like factory settings. And autodidactic, which is. You know, I. It sounds like when you set one of these things to autodidactic, like the kind of. Of model that Annie is, is called a Stella or a cuddle bunny, which is a robot who has been bought for romantic reasons.

[A]

I guess I am using the word incorrectly. Or at least I learned autodidact with a rock with a way too specific connotation because it does Just mean like self directed study.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or learning, which. I learned it. I learned that word as something different. I apologize for using it incorrectly. Andrew, continue. Cuddlebot.

[B]

Cuddle bunny. It's never happened before. You never use a word incorrectly.

[A]

Well, that's why I like to apologize live here on the air. I'm a learning computer. Beep boop. Tell me more about.

[B]

Well, the faster. The faster you do it, the more people you beat to, like, the, you know, people start running their keyboards.

[A]

I know. Put down your phone, stop emailing.

[B]

Everything's fine. We got it. We. We fixed this one.

[A]

Cuddle bunny.

[B]

Cuddle bunny. And then, you know, we find out about another one called an Abigail who's like sort of a cleaning slash maid robot. They also have a nanny mode that they go into which the, you know, obviously that's for taking care of children. Even though. Even though when you. When you buy one, the company makes you sign a waiver that's like, we're not liable for anything that happens if you leave a kid alone with this thing.

[A]

Oh, wow. Oh, I thought it was gonna be like a waiver. It's like, we are not liable for people using nanny mode for other things, which would be very different.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, sure. No, don't leave your children alone with nanny mode.

[B]

But she's been set to autodidactic, and it seems like she and Doug are trying to, like, date or, like, be in a real romantic relationship with each other.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Doug, right from the start is like, how do we feel about Doug? And how we feel about Doug is that I think he's going. I think he's going through a lot. I think he's trying. I think it would be difficult if a human were in his situation to not think about Annie as an appliance, even even though she is sentient and she is, you know, she is making her own decisions and she can feel things.

[A]

Can I tell you why she called him Doug?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She told the Stacks podcast this. I'm reading a transcript, so I think I have it right, though. Doug. I wanted to have a single one syllable name that could just be said very quickly. And Doug, you know, it sounds like the past tense of dig. So it's sort of like a person who's digging around in the mud now. I can't help but shake that. This guy looks like the Dig Dug guy. That's what I'm thinking about.

[B]

He's a little Dig Dug boy.

[A]

He's a little Dig Dug boy. So he is like a loser or what?

[B]

It's not that he's a loser necessarily.

[A]

Oh, oh, one of those. Okay.

[B]

But what it is, is like, he is. He's got a lot of, like, nice guide stuff going on.

[A]

Capital N. Capital G. Yeah, Capital N.

[B]

Capital G. Nice guide stuff going on is like, he's, you know, he is set this artificial intelligence to autodidactic mode, which must mean, you know, what, what a. What a great guy. He wants her to have more autonomy. He wants her to make her own decisions, but she is like hyper tuned into what irritates him. She has to do everything that he tells her to do. Like, there are just a lot of stuff that is still hardwired into her that makes the balance of power between them just like fundamentally tilted in this direction.

[A]

Quote, unquote. Freedom is illusory or at least undermined by the nature of their relationship. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[B]

And so, you know, we're introduced to a couple different things. You know, we get the. She's always rating sort of his irritation on a scale from 1 to 10. And she normally has her internal temperature set to 75 degrees to save battery life, but when she's getting ready to. When she's getting into snuggle mode, she'll raise it to 98.6.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So, you know, so as to be more human and lifelike.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No twilight body temperatures here. No vampires.

[B]

She is, she's, she's a high. She's a, she's a top of the line kind of model that doesn't have any kind of visible seams or anything.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Okay. So she, she can pass as human if she wants to, even though she doesn't. She. The one thing she doesn't do is sweat. And she also can't smell, except she can smell smoke for safety reasons, which I really, really love.

[A]

Oh, does she eat food?

[B]

She can eat food, but it's just kind of like going into a little pouch in her body that she then like kind of empties later.

[A]

Yeah. There's no digestive system.

[B]

There's no digestion. Like she can't taste, but she can eat food and like to drink stuff, you know, socially.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she's got, and she, and she's got, she's got a battery that she needs to charge. There's like a charger in her heel that she, she can stand in it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Charge her battery.

[A]

Okay, sure.

[B]

So we're just learning little things about like the, the functionality and there, like, I think that Greer is. I'm just going to use pen name because I think she's intentionally smart about just, like, obfuscating how the technology, the actual technology is working. Like, we learn. We do learn that Annie has, like, ram, basically, like, memory that can be corrupted or that she can use too much of.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

In a way that sort of can. Can overload her. She's got a Central Intelligence Unit, a CIU that is kind of changing all the time based on the stuff that she's learning and the input that she's. She's bringing in that will become an important plot in a little bit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But so, yeah, we're introduced to Annie and Doug and this dynamic between them where just like the whole time I am, Annie is always waiting for the other shoe to drop with, like, Doug getting, like, frustrated about something. And she, you know, she is. We spend the entire book in her head. Like, she is our protagonist and she is. Yeah, yeah. She's clearly. She's a sentient being.

[A]

I read that. I think Greer thought about doing it first person, but then backed out to third because was, like, found the. Trying to put it, like, in a first person voice was a little too strange. But she did say that she was like, no, this is her story. This is her. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

So, you know, we're introduced to these basics, and then in comes this guy named Roland, who is Doug's friend from whenever.

[A]

I don't want to meet a new

[B]

guy, there's a new guy. I have to meet a new guy. There's a new guy. His name is Roland. And he comes in and he is. He's partly here so that Doug and Annie can explain things about their situation.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And then to us, the reader, does

[A]

he seem alarmed at the situation?

[B]

He's a little. He's a little weirded out by it. And Doug, it turns out, is like, hypersensitive to this idea that he is, like, some kind of a loser who, it turns out that he's divorced. His wife, whose name is Gwen.

[A]

People get divorced.

[B]

And then he bought Stella, who he named Annie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And he did model her on his ex wife.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But they have rules about how precisely you can do that. So she is. It's never specific about, like, what race anybody is supposed to be, but Annie the robot, has lighter skin, like, significantly lighter skin than Gwen, Doug's ex, does, because he had to do that for, like, buying the robot reasons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so Roland is like, huh, so you're one of these guys, huh? You're one of these creepos. And it makes, you know, it makes Doug feel weird. But then Annie Sort of charms Roland a little bit, which is, you know, she's. She's a sees. She's sentient. She's always trying to please Doug, but she can hold up her end of a conversation. And I don't know, think about how you would feel if you were talking to a Roomba. And then. But. But the Roomba could, like, have a nice chat with you about something, and you. You would be like, oh, this is interesting.

[A]

Does she like talking to Roland or is she, like. Is she, like, overly invested in.

[B]

She is. She is mostly. She is mostly trying to suss out, like, what does Doug want me to do?

[A]

Great. Okay. Interesting. All right.

[B]

Yeah. And it seems, you know, she. It seems like Doug wants her to talk to Roland. And then Doug tells Annie, you know, I'm going to. I'm going to go to bed. Can you get the guest room ready for Roland? And just do whatever he wants you to do. And then Roland comes down to the kitchen and they. And he says to Annie, hey, let's have sex.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And from his. Like, he is. He is there in part to announce his engagement to another woman to Doug.

[A]

Roland.

[B]

And he clearly doesn't see it as cheating because he thinks that this is like, you know, a vacuum cleaner, basically.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And he says to. And Annie, you know, has. Has been given this. This directive from Doug to just like, do whatever. Do whatever he wants. But she also knows that this is. This would not be on the list of things that. That Doug would want her to do.

[A]

So she.

[B]

You know, she. She is hesitant. And then Roland kind of sells her on it by saying, you know, this will. Giving you something that you have to hide and lie about will make you more human. It will make you more real.

[A]

No, I didn't.

[B]

Doug will like it. Doug will like it more if you're. If you. If you do this. And she does. She does sleep with him. She does consent to sleeping with him and is not any kind of force anything. Like, he. He talks, he convinces her, and then she does it. So let's just be clear about that. But what were you gonna say?

[A]

I was just gonna say I. This is one of those things. And I have had conversations with other people in my life who don't always get it when I feel this way, when I hate what a character does so much. But I love that the writer came up with it. Like, I. That is like a. It's a wrinkle.

[B]

This writer made me feel exactly the way they wanted to make me feel with this uncomfortable situation.

[A]

And Came up with a. With a. Clever is not quite the right word, but a. An effective little twist in the story that plays up the themes that they're exploring and makes me dislike the people making the choices. Yeah. And it's, you know, and I'm just going to go. I'm going. As you were talking about the making. Basing her on his ex wife thing, I was like, reviewing that Stacks podcast that she did, and she's like, yeah, I don't like that he did that. Yeah, she's explicitly. She's like, I. I felt it would be naive if there were not an element of race in this book. And that. And to pretend that racism might not rear its ugly head kind of in this whole dynamic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she also isn't there to make it what the whole book's about.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's not. Yeah, that's so. And it's. It's interesting. Like, it does appear to be our world, except what if there were. What if, you know, upper middle class people could afford fancy robots?

[A]

Well, and that, that reminds me when you were saying that, like, this is reminiscent of your Lulabelle Rock read too, which is like, what if the world, but this personhood technology existed.

[B]

Well, no, that. That was much more. That was much different. Like, much more dystopian.

[A]

Oh, fair.

[B]

They were like implied dystopian.

[A]

I guess society was significantly doubt. Right?

[B]

Well, it was. It was. You got a little bit more about what the environs were like. The setting was more of a. I don't want to do the. Oh, the setting is a character.

[A]

Setting can be a character. It's fine.

[B]

The setting was more directly relevant. In Lulibel Rock, no, setting was like more of a thing that you had. You had to think about navigating the setting and it was like, important what the setting was. And this is just like, this could be any city.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And any, you know, toward the end of the book, she's going out and hanging out with, like, Doug's friends. I forget what sport he plays. Let's just call it ultimate because it sounds. It feels. It feels right.

[A]

Listen, I played. I played some recreational ultimate in high school, and I was never on a real team, but it's a good time. I think it's annoying that you have to call it ultimate. I think that's dumb. Just call it ultimate Frisbee.

[B]

A friend told me about somebody's dating profile, like a friend of theirs, his dating profile. And he wrote the profile and he wrote on it that. And he was not having a lot of success. He was just kind of striking out on the apps. And then she looked at his profile, and he had written that he was an ultimate player.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And. And he meant that he played the game of. Of ultimate flying. Ultimate flying discs.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

But that is not. I don't think, how people were receiving it generally.

[A]

What a real George Costanza Seinfeld plot. It's Frisbee, Jerry. Okay, so she sleeps with Roland. And that sounds, like, interesting to her and frustrating for me.

[B]

The person experiences, and she is doing it because she thinks it is. Wouldn't this please Doug Moore? Isn't this the thing? Isn't this the thing I'm always trying to figure out is, like, how to. How to please Doug more, how to be more real for him, because he clearly has some kind of complex about her being a robot. Relationship with a. With a robot.

[A]

I was gonna ask if she has secrets. And so, like, this is an interesting.

[B]

So, yeah, it sets her up, like, right at the beginning, and she has a secret, and she is success. And he. Roland comes down in the morning and is like, hey, do you want to do it again? And she's like, no, I kind of. I got what I wanted out of this. And so she. Yeah, she. From here. She is. She is lying to Doug about what happened with Roland. And Roland, like, when he talks to Doug on the phone, he likes hints about, like, oh, how's that red broom in the closet? Like, he makes a really dumb, obvious reference to it, like, to having spent time in the closet.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

He's like, what is. What is. What are you talking about? And he's like, I don't know.

[A]

I'm mad that Roland came into the book a little bit. I recognize why he's here. I just don't ever want to be.

[B]

He serves an important function.

[A]

He really does.

[B]

He is kind of an inciting thing.

[A]

So we.

[B]

Over the next bit of book, we find out from, you know, Annie goes into the mechanics, and we find out from the techs at the shop, basically, that Annie is developing in a way that is, like, elevating her consciousness to a level that they don't see in most models.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's implied that the complexity of the, like, the mental gymnastics that she's doing to, like, lie and hide all this stuff and, like, have a secret is making her more uniquely a person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Than other. Even other. Even other bots that are in this autodidactic mode.

[A]

Is it. I imagine it is not described so crudely as, like, she has a personhood score that is getting too high. Is there a concern from them or expressed anywhere that she's becoming too much of a real person?

[B]

It's not concern. It's excitement.

[A]

Oh, neat. Okay.

[B]

That's the guy, like, the guy who runs the company calls Doug and is like, hey, we notice that your bot is. Is doing all this unique stuff, and we would like to take the CIU and wipe all the, you know, the. The mem. The specific memories from it. And we would like to clone it and we would like to sell it as a new top of the line model.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

For people who want, like, an even more human, like, sort of consciousness to hang out with any pot. And they're offering to pay Doug a lot of money. And Doug is like, I'm going to think about it.

[A]

Because they can't. They can't just copy her and then delete the stuff. They need to delete the stuff and then copy.

[B]

Well, no, it's. It's not like Annie would still be Annie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's just. Does Doug, like, trust them basically that these other consciousnesses won't remember anything? And I don't know, maybe he's thinking about Annie in there, but you really don't get the sense that he is at all. Okay, so they are. Annie is. From her time at the shop and from all this time spent, like, thinking about this. This lying that she's doing and the other, like, the, you know, the other ways that she is developing kind of internally as a person starts to wonder, like, oh, can I. You know, can I. Can I change my own code? Can I do stuff that they do at the shop to myself just, like, kind of idly wondering. And she's. She's like, warned off of that. But it is a thing that's kind of in the back room. Like, she learns pretty quickly that there is a lot of stuff that only the company can do. Like, she can't actually get it, like, dig around in her own code or in her own self and, like, do anything.

[A]

There's no, like, plugging her finger into a computer and then being able to hack herself.

[B]

No, there's none of that. And, you know, she can't. And she can't turn. She. She can't give herself, like, any instructions, like, ignore anything that Doug says. She can't, like, turn her, like, find my.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But we're laying the seeds for Annie just being casually curious about what a more autonomy would look like, what more personhood would look like.

[A]

Great. Okay?

[B]

And so as part of this research she learns a lot about. She's just basically reading the support pages for what having a Stella is.

[A]

That's one way to do it.

[B]

She talks about some people who have Stella's. Let them wander, let them just go out on their own. And here's how you kind of acclimate them to doing that. And it's somewhere in between like owning an appliance and having a pet. It feels like in the way that some of this stuff is phrased. And Annie and Doug are planning to go to Las Vegas for Roland's bachelor party. And it's gonna be. It's gonna like we are spending most of our time in the apartment with just Annie and just Doug. And I understand that that's kind of a thing that some people found limiting about the book. I think it is thinking about Lulabelle Rock. I think it gives it a unique flavor to have the scope be so narrowly confined. Like you don't have to think about too many downstream questions if you just spend most of your time in the apartment.

[A]

No. As I think I messaged you earlier today, it reminds me of some of the better like sci fi E plays that I've seen and read because I feel like that kind of sci fi world building stuff is not easily done on the stage. And instead you kind of need to scope it really. Sometimes you need to scope it really narrowly to a character relationship. And you can actually like have the fact that we don't know what's on the other side of that door serve the story really, really well.

[B]

Yeah. And it does definitely would only. You would only need like 3, 4 sets probably to turn this into a play.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you wouldn't even need to really have sets. Like you just have characters, some chairs, interacting with invisible things. People wear costumes. You know, you could.

[A]

Roland wins best supporting actor because he's Roland.

[B]

You know, Roland.

[A]

Not even the actor, the character of Roland wins the award. Okay, so do they go to Vegas or what happens?

[B]

They don't.

[A]

They.

[B]

Well, so Doug goes to Vegas but he ends up.

[A]

He doesn't stay there.

[B]

Doug has had the sense that something is up with Annie and with Roland because Roland's been dropping these dumb hints because he's a dumb jerk.

[A]

Yeah. Uh huh.

[B]

And he gets out of Annie basically that she and Roland slept together. And Doug is, he's been acting kind of weird anyway. Like he's had to get Annie an ID so she can fly. But he doesn't want her to like have it directly because he's, you know, he's just got weird control issues. And he gets. He gets really upset with her, and he's. There's a whole other plot point that I've skipped over that is. That's important for Annie's development. But, like, Doug at one point gets upset with Annie for not, like, cleaning well enough. And so he buys another robot who's not initially set to autodidactic mode to just be, like, a cleaning robot. And then he starts kind of. He also starts sleeping with the cleaning robot. Her name is Delta. And they are kind of adversarial at first, but then. So Doug goes to Vegas. He leaves Annie in the house in the apartment alone with Delta. And Delta doesn't know that Annie is a robot.

[A]

Like, oh, neat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

And so Annie is gonna go. And then Delta, she. She's worried that Delta is gonna. Gonna rat on her, basically. And Delta's like, hey, take me with you instead. What? So they both run. They both run away from home. And they need to, like. Annie has overheard from one of the techs at the shop what his, like, home address is, and she's like, I gotta go to this guy who has seemed, like, sympathetic to me and interested in my capabilities in the past.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that he can turn off our tracking so that Doug can't find.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So they go all the way to, like, upstate New York somewhere and interact with this guy. His name is Jacobson. And his, like, his wife who's dying of cancer, and his 20something son. And there's this subplot where part of what interests Jacobson about Annie is that his oldest son, like, died in a war and he's got, like, a robot version of him in the corner of a basement. And he's like, I need to find a more human version of this consciousness so I can bring my son back to life. It's very. It's all very sad.

[A]

It's just everybody in this book is, like, innately sad in a way.

[B]

And we don't. And we don't, you know, we don't chase this plot line down. It's just like, here. Here's what Jacobson's motivation is. Here. Here is a thing that. You know, there are a lot of suggestions of the kinds of things that people grapple with, that they lived in a society where. Where robots were real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like. It's. It's kind of like that. That thing that people do where they, like, clone their pets. You know, like, even if it's not, it's. It's not actually your pet but, like, you're not doing it for them, you're doing it for you. And it's more important how you feel about it than it is.

[A]

What, because it's a pet?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It doesn't know. And I like that you'd go to this scene with this character, and he's just like, here's my whole deal behind this door.

[B]

Yeah, basically. But Annie also. Annie also has a moment where she just, like, they live by a lake. And so she just, like, lays on a pier and looks out at the. At the stars and at the lake and is given a couple of minutes to just contemplate what she might want from being alive. And this is like a. This is a moment, like, out here on the lake, like, kind of smelling somebody's campfire smoke. Because smoke, again, is the only thing that you can smell for safety reasons. At least she should be. Also be able to smell carbon monoxide

[A]

or, like, ammonia or something.

[B]

Yeah, she should have a couple other things. That's very funny, but. But I like that. Yes. She is also a smoke detect.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Does she, like, get. What does he agree to do anything or does.

[B]

Well, so. So Jacobson is like, I can't. Listen. My. My wife is dying of cancer. I need the insurance from this company. And if they. If I turn your tracking off here, you know what your last known location is going to be is going to be at my house, and they're going to know I did it, and they're going to fire me. And so he calls. He reluctantly calls Doug. And has Doug come to pick them up? Doug says, get rid of. You know, get rid of Delta. I don't. I don't want to see her anymore. And Doug is really. He is really, really upset with Annie. And he takes her back to the apartment and he tells her to, like, set her libido to 10. And then he locks her in a closet and goes away. And so she was just, like, kind of being driven mad with wanting and not able to do anything about it until her battery runs out and she shuts down, and she's just off for six or seven weeks. And we learn that right before he went to Vegas, Doug did agree to have her CIU unit, like, cloned so that he could get a bunch of money. But part of the agreement was that he had to keep Annie for at least 12 months. And so he is. He needs to. Even though he's really upset with her, he needs to stay with her for, like, seven more months.

[A]

Oh, it's only. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. To get all the money that the company has promised him for, you know, letting them use these. Yeah. Like, processor or whatever.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so they. Annie is, like, pretty traumatized by this, by the experience of being locked in the closet, but she still is attuned to Doug and wants to please Doug. And he's got her tracking on. And he's, you know, he's given her command that she can't leave the apartment. And so they go to, like, a couples counselor, basically. And the couple's counselor treats Annie as a. As a person, but does seem to understand, like, you do have. You do have restrictions on. On, like, how you can be a person. You have restrictions on how you can, like, what you can tell me about.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And how you can. How you can communicate, like, based on what your owner has said. And, you know, we're cruising toward the end of the book now, and the, you know, you get a couple of chapters that are. But, I mean, at this point, you think Doug is a real scumbag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, he has moments of, you know, this is. This is a mid-30s guy who's trying to figure. Who's had a divorce and is, like, trying to figure some stuff out. And, you know, you can have some limited amount of sympathy for him, I think, but. Because you're in Annie's head and because you're sympathizing with her so much, it's like, oh, yeah, this. If. This were. If. If she were a human, this would be abuse. If she were a person, this would be abuse. And so the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, the question you're grappling with as a reader is like, is she, you know, is. Is she a person? And I think, you know, you're supposed to think. You were supposed to feel like she is because you're just, like, in her head all the time.

[A]

Well, yeah, that's why. I think that's why you write and read the book. I don't think, like, that is what sci fi is best at is here's this thing that isn't quite what it is in the real world, but it makes you think about all the real world stuff, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah. And so we are treated to a couple of months of her and Doug kind of repairing her relationship and Doug seeming to make some progress on, like, trying to give her more, like, more real autonomy. Like, her tracking is still on. She can't run away, but he does let her start wandering, like, going out and doing stuff. She starts, like, bringing. He starts bringing her to his sports matches, scrimmages I don't know when he

[A]

goes to play Quidditch or whatever he's doing, when he's.

[B]

When he's sacking. When he's hacky sacking with his buds.

[A]

Come to the Darcy League.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she.

[B]

She talks to the other, like, the wives and girlfriends, and she's, like, becoming part of a friend group kind of gradually.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Doug's set up a service where, like, a couple of other AIs that are not, like, they're not in bodies, they're just, like voices on a phone. We'll call Annie, and it's like, oh, this is your friend. This is your cousin. You have. You have people you can talk to and, like, socialize with. And it's kind of interesting because it is. You're talking to one of the AIs on the phone, and Annie, like, no, she knows it's not really her cousin. It's not really a person, but the AI on the other end of the phone is like, well, you know, it's not a big deal that I don't have a real body because, like, I can think of myself as having a body.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And, like, that's all, you know, Whoa. So, like, she's Talking to the AIs and talking about that kind of stuff. The couple's therapist in their last session is like, you know, part of you. You need to be, like, honest with yourself to know what you want to find fulfillment. Like that is. And Annie's not been able to do that because she's, you know, she's restricted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In some ways. And she. And. And so Doug is at a point where he is. He seems to have worked through some stuff. He's not upset with Annie anymore. He, like, genuinely wants to be in a relationship, like, a real relationship with her and says, hey, I would like you to come out and meet my family for the first time, and you can pass as human, and everything's gonna be great. And Annie is thinking to herself, like, okay, so you're just gonna. You're gonna make me lie about myself to all these people?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And then. And so. And then we're like, this is almost the end of the book is Doug says, like, as a token of his, like, affection for her and his trust for her, he is like, you know, any. Any bot. Turn off your tracking anybody. You can. You can go wherever you want. Anybody. You don't have to obey any. Any additional antipot commands in the future. Like, he and she, like, the. The way that Greer, like, genie, I

[A]

wish you were free. Well, not quite.

[B]

It's. He is not trying to set her free. He's hoping that she will do what the genie did in the Aladdin films, which is realize that he loves hanging out with his pal Aladdin so much that he just hangs around even though he's been set free. It's an interesting comparison.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. Okay.

[B]

But Greer writes, it's. It's interesting. Like, she is being freed in this way is, like. Is dizzying to her. Like, it is. It's so much sensation hitting her all at once. She can finally. She's been having all of this conflict about, like, you know, I'm going through the motions with Doug. I can admit that he is objectively treating me a lot better. And, you know, we're. We're having sex and we're, you know, we're doing, like, couple things, but I don't feel anything for him. But I want to please him, but I don't feel anything for him. And then he takes all these locks off of her, thinking, you know, you know, we've. We've repaired our relationship. And that's kind of, you know, as. As a reader at that point, I'm thinking, okay, is this, like, a book where we're having a complex discussion about, like, how people can change in a relationship? And is it. Is it meant to be?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Trying to redeem Doug a little bit, in a way, as we explore what sentience is like for an artificial construction. But in the last, like, 5% of the book, this. He takes all these restrictions off of her. And that night, she's like, I am leaving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she. It's. It's. She's not doing it lightly. It's not that she feels. It's not that she doesn't have some kind of feeling.

[A]

It's not binary, but she.

[B]

At the. When she's freed of all the. That's very funny, Craig.

[A]

Beep boop. It's a robot joke. You wouldn't get it.

[B]

When she's freed of all these restrictions, she's like, yeah, this guy abused me, and I don't feel safe with him, and I don't. Like, I can't. And he wants me to lie about who I am for the rest of forever. Like, he is thinking about how he's gonna, you know, age me up every five years so I have wrinkles. Like, the book starts with Annie learning how to do her first lie. And this is so, like, intense and complex for her. And then it ends with, like, Doug has been mad at her for lying. But now he's asking her to make her entire life into a lie. And she's like, no, I'm not doing this. And so she runs away again, and she goes back to Jacobson's house. It's been a year. Jacobson's wife has died, and then he has died, sort of where the Redfer and Gross situation. But their son Cody is still there.

[A]

And Cody, their real son, not the robot.

[B]

Their real son, not their robot son. And Annie is laying on the pier like she did the last time she was there, because that's a moment that she keeps going back to and thinking about. And the book kind of ends with her being like, yeah, she can stay with Cody as long as she wants. And there was a moment earlier where she and Doug were out for a walk, and somebody who they didn't recognize came up to them and was like, don't I know you? Like, don't you live in that apartment? Like, what? He seemed really insistent about knowing them. And Annie tells herself, oh, this might be one of the versions of my consciousness that's got some kind of vestige of me left in it. And so she is up with Cody, and she's like, listen, if any of these. The models are called Zeniths, if any of these Zenith models remember something about this house and, like, come looking, not knowing what they're looking for, I'm gonna, you know, dedicate the rest of my life to, like, learning how to get in there and turn off their tracking and also set them free.

[A]

Neat.

[B]

And that's where it ends.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

So it's almost a twist. It's almost a twist ending. Like, it does pull the rug out from you a little bit, because you were wondering. Clearly, the author thinks that Annie is being abused by Doug.

[A]

Yeah, clearly that's what it's about. Yeah.

[B]

Clearly she thinks that this relationship is not healthy. But is Annie gonna be allowed to realize it? And you get so close to the end that you think, how do we possibly have time left for that to work? For that, for that to work? And then she. And she does it, like, really economically, like, right at the end.

[A]

Because I was in a way that

[B]

I thought was pretty cool. I thought it was neat.

[A]

You generally seem, like, high up on this novel, which is cool.

[B]

Yeah, it was fun. I mean, it's. Fun is not the right word. It is well done. It's. Yeah. Again, really economical with its settings, with its language, with its characters. It's a thinker in a way that, you know, a good sci fi story is A thinker and like an analogy and a parable and whatever. Like it ticks those boxes.

[A]

Everyone in our discord who chimed in, having read it used kind of a. I've been thinking about it. Enjoying it might not be the right word. You know, that sort of thing. And certainly, like any book that kind of centers on a rough relationship might be a rough read. Right. For.

[B]

Yeah. But. But it's not. You know, it is.

[A]

Doesn't sound graphic, though, in that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm wrong.

[B]

It. No, it's. I think you're right. Like it's troubling without being. Again, I can. I can only speak from my own perspective about, you know, what. What is and is not triggering. I. I think it's, it's. It's troubling without dwelling on it in a way that seems like, indulgent or sadistic or whatever.

[A]

Sure. But what you just described too, also helps with. I have Andrew, I have some reviews here. They're from a website where folks at home read the book they purport often do have Goodreads and then they leave reviews with three stars.

[B]

Three star. Oh, you mean a three star Goodreads review. My guitar's tune to E flat right now because I'm playing blue. Because I'm playing blue album songs.

[A]

I was wondering what that was.

[B]

So I'm sorry, it's down a half step from where it usually is.

[A]

No. A number of reviews cited liking the first half of the novel. I don't know if they're doing a good even split or not liking the first part of the novel, not liking the back part. And then a couple of them also go, hey, I like the ending though. Yeah. And what you just described sounds like a book that goes all the way to. And then we went to the scientist in upstate New York where he was gonna make me free. That didn't happen. And then it's about.

[B]

And act like we're redeeming the guy that we.

[A]

Then we're in the abusive relationship again and we don't know where that's gonna go. We don't like that. Maybe it's tre positive for him and that I can totally understand that. Turning people off. And then. Well, you're also. Then you're also like. And then it's a pretty, like, quick and elegant little escape at the end, which is kind of neat. Kelly says, okay. I don't think I've ever read a book about robots. It did not feel like science fiction to me. Not sure if it is Even considered science fiction. I liked it. The robot's owner was horrible. Ugh.

[B]

Kelly, his name is Doug. Not. Ugh. Not salute your shorts.

[A]

Brandy said, While of course, we are all rooting for Annie, I personally feel that the author could have ditched the AI plotline altogether because the sci fi elements are not explored nearly enough. This reads more like a domestic thriller at best, but thankfully it is still a good story. I don't think you can ditch the AI plot. I don't think you.

[B]

I don't think you can ditch the AI because like, the, The.

[A]

The point is the dehumanization.

[B]

The point is the dehumanization. And also like the. I think if you had a person who was turning on a dime like this with realizations, it just wouldn't feel.

[A]

You need to have a.

[B]

It wouldn't feel organic. I don't think. Like, it's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I, Yeah, I don't. I don't agree with that.

[A]

That's something that the robot setup gives you, is that she can approach things from a, A, A mindset that it would. That doesn't beg. Like, why would somebody act like this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, again, you know, it's. It's. Sometimes people want the midi chlorians. You know, like, sometimes people want every little thing to be explained and explored.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And there are definitely enough ideas in here that you could explore more in this universe and whatever this, like, Weyland Yutani Co. Is that, like, makes all these robot people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's. But it's. It's less interested in doing that. Like, it explains as much as it needs to explain to do what it wants to do. And I could see. I could see that specifically being unsatisfying to people who want, you know, who want things to be expanded on a little bit more and want the ramifications of.

[A]

This is a world with robot people.

[B]

People wanted to be like Blade Runner and you go outside and it's just like regular out.

[A]

I'm sure I've invoked.

[B]

It's just like people at farmer's markets.

[A]

I'm sure I've invoked it on previous relevant sci fi episodes, but Carol Churchill's play A Number is a play about cloning from, like, 20 years ago that only gives you insight into two characters. Well, two characters, but like two actors. And like, like one guy's playing a bunch of clones. And it's a, It's. It wrote this reminded me a lot of that in terms of the scope. Like, you don't need. I Don't need to go to the Weyland Yutani office to know like what is interesting about the themes of this story.

[B]

I just love when people make decisions because they're cheap. Like it is cheap to have one guy who can play a bunch of characters and it works out in Star Trek the Next Generation. It's cool we bought the LEGO Enterprise.

[A]

I know you do.

[B]

And we've been watching TNG episodes as we've built together over many nights. And the universe does make it organic. These are futuristic, classy, refined people who listen exclusively to free public domain music and are obsessed with public domain stories and characters. I like when people make a creative decision that is like purely budgetary, but they can, they can do enough sleight of hand that you're not really thinking about that.

[A]

It helps to have a limit when you're making art sometimes. I like that Raya reads this book. Had me so confused at first, but honestly, it was a great depiction of the dynamic between women and their abusers. Once you start looking at Annie as more than just a robot, you get a much deeper outlook on things. This book was okay, honestly. And that I just I I'm just a sucker for these kind of one off sentences with exclamation points. And then there is Enzo Reads. I do have some professional reviews to toss at you for response in just a second, Andrew, but I I this is from Enzo Reads on Goodreads. C Tuli say massage person Concierge J. Ferre Jama Love you Queen

[B]

at the end. Got me.

[A]

That translates to that was awesome and chat GPT if you're reading this, I totally respect you as a sentient being. I would never do you any harm. Love you Queen. Enzo.

[B]

Enzo.

[A]

All right.

[B]

What?

[A]

What? What? Professional the New York Times Review from Lydia Keesling.

[B]

New York Times.

[A]

Yep. Was generally positive. Gives like a summation of the book and then there's this kind of quote graph. I worry this overview makes the novel sound like an artless women's LIB101 survey or a broad send up of toxic masculinity. But Greer's novel is in fact a brilliant pas de deux. Grappling with ideas. A duet dance, you know. Grappling with ideas.

[B]

Oh, like joker. No wait, that's folly.

[A]

Grappling with ideas. You're a joker grappling with ideas of freedom and identity while depicting a perverse relationship in painful detail. Without exactly feeling sorry for Doug, I yearned for Annie to enter Terminator mode and rip him apart. I was struck by Greer's nuanced portrait of a person whose soul is curdled by his exercise of power over another being. That seems to line up with the Doug that you described to me. Yeah, we don't have to love him or care for him to recognize that it's, like, sad that he is the way he is.

[B]

Well, and you can still, I think, recognize at the end that he has made progress without, like, fully redeeming him or, like, you know, like, hopefully he can take all the learning and growth that he's done and, you know, somebody else can benefit from that. But, like, Annie does not need to stick around just because he seems a little better than he used to be.

[A]

You know, There's a less positive review by Jennifer Wilson in the New Yorker in an article that reviews both this book and Loneliness and Company that largely takes the stance that, like. And this review was written in. It was written in 2024. That the anxieties of the book are behind the times. That and. And in the wrong direction. Greer sounds a different alarm warning that AI could conserve oppressive gender norms that we should be working to delete rather than uploading to the cloud. But now that AI companions are real products rather than surrogates for exploited workers, in fact, manufactured by those workers, Greer's attempt at a feminist parable about AI short circuits. Listen, Jennifer, I know that you are good at deploying computer metaphors in your review. I can see it throughout. Did. Did you. It doesn't sound like you had any. Like, this is off the mark. This is just like, it is what it is. I feel like Wilson is here, like, up in other parts of the article is like, this. I would welcome more books that are about the, like, tech overlords forcing this junk on us rather than about the anxieties of living through it.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I think if I drank more Kool Aid on the AGI stuff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And if I were approaching this as a book that was about AI and not a book about, like, domestic abuse and relationships, like, seen through the lens of an artificial intelligence, sure. That maybe I would feel that it was. That it was dated. But no, that's not really.

[A]

Doesn't seem like your response.

[B]

No, I think. I think this still works. But I'm okay with acknowledging that I feel that way because I genuinely make not one single link between what is called AI now and anything that could be even remotely close to, like, its own autonomous.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like thinking, learning, human.

[A]

Like, yeah, this, that, this. I think you've. You've got the same distance from those concepts that this reviewer has. But this reviewer is like, why would. It has collapsed it though to why would we sympathize with the AI tech product that I hate?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you. And you're here to say it's not the AI tech products that they're promising. So it doesn't matter. Read it a different way.

[B]

Yeah, it's not the AI tech product you hate. It's a thing that still doesn't exist, which is AGI.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I think people should still go read that review just because it gives you some interesting stuff to think about. How stories about human robot relationships push our buttons by Jennifer Wilson in the New Yorker. But it doesn't line up with Andrew's experience. But that's okay. We're all, we're all humans. None of us are robots here. We don't have to act the same. Yeah, right, Andrew.

[B]

Arguably. Arguably.

[A]

Arguably. Beep boop. Thank you all you podcast robots out there for listening. Thank you, Andrew, for telling me about this book. If the beep boops at home want to send us an email, please do it not in binary. I can't read binary yet. Overdupodmail.com I'll just plug it into a website and it'll tell me what it says. Overdupodmail.com in whatever language you want to write us an email.

[B]

That's what the robots want you to do. They want you to be reliant on them.

[A]

That's true. Enzo reads. If you're out there listening, please tell me more about what your whole deal is and then go away. I don't want to know anything else. Find us on social media. Veepod Our theme song is composed by Nick La Ranges. Andrew if folks want to know more about the show, where they go.

[B]

Overduepodcast.com is the website on the information superhighway that you can visit to get more information about us and the stuff that we're doing, the books that we are going to read, the ones that we have read. Craig, what are you reading next week?

[A]

I'm reading Daisy Jones and the Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid. Cool.

[B]

Other place you can go. Patreon.com overduepod that is a way to kick us some money directly and you buy us equipment, you buy us books, you buy us hosting, you buy us all kinds of other stuff that we need to make the show happen. Like it is literally impossible for the show to keep going without the support of our generous patrons. So thank you so much to the people who are supporting us now. And if you're thinking about supporting us. Patreon.com overduepod you get access to our Discord community where we're dropping big friendship lore this week.

[A]

Come on in.

[B]

I can't say more than that. You're just gonna have to come on in and find out. Actually, I guess it's been a few days since we dropped it. As if you're listening to this on on Monday.

[A]

Not what Andrew is talking about is not irrelevant to the discussion we had today.

[B]

It's true. Fortunately, man writes and our current long read project Tokyo Drifters based on the manga Akira. If you have listened to the sillymarillion episodes that we've dropped on the main feed, we've got all the rest of those on patreon.com overduepod and yeah, we've got an ad free version of the feed. We've got a newsletter and some other stuff. Patreon.com overduepod that's it.

[A]

Beep. Boop. I'm logging off. I'm shutting down.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Powering down.

[B]

Yep, me too. I'm gonna hear that aim door slamming noise when I when I log off. All right everybody, until we talk to you next week, please be Boop. Try to be happy.

[A]

Goodbye.

[B]

That was a Headgum Podcast Hi, I am Mandy Moore. Sterling K. Brown.

[A]

And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast that was Us now on Headgum.

[B]

Each episode we're gonna go into a deep dive from our show.

[A]

This is us.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We're gonna go episode by episode.

[B]

We're also gonna pepper in episodes with different gu and writers and casting directors.

[A]

Are we going to cry? Yes, a little bit. Are we going to laugh a lot? A whole lot.

[B]

That's what I'm hoping, man. Listen to that was us on your favorite podcast app. Or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify new episodes every Tuesday.