Ep 755 - Audition, by Katie Kitamura

Summary

Overdue Ep 755 - Audition by Katie Kitamura

Release Date: June 15, 2026
Hosts: Andrew and Craig

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andrew and Craig dive into Audition by Katie Kitamura, a celebrated, enigmatic novel shortlisted for both the 2025 Booker Prize and the Pulitzer. The conversation explores Kitamura’s career, the novel’s evasive sense of reality, and how Audition examines performance, agency, and the blurry line between the self and art. The hosts candidly wrestle with what’s “real” in the story, raising questions about passive protagonists, the politics of literature, and what it means to observe rather than act. Through close reading and plenty of meta-commentary, they attempt to interpret a novel designed to evade easy interpretation, while keeping the conversation relatable and entertaining.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. About Katie Kitamura and Context

• Audition is Kitamura’s fifth novel and the first primarily set in America (New York City).
• Won critical acclaim: Booker Prize shortlist (2025), Pulitzer finalist, National Book Critics Circle finalist, and more.
• Part of a “triptych” with her previous novels (A Separation, Intimacies) that explore unnamed female narrators engaged in interpretation or translation.
• Inspired by the headline “A stranger told me he was my son” (she wrote the novel without reading the article) ([14:16]).
• Kitamura’s style is marked by sparse, ambiguous detail, leaving race, backstory, and even physical reality open to reader interpretation ([10:36]–[12:13]).
• The book’s political dimension: Kitamura describes her focus as “writing about women and whether or not they have control over their lives in a post-truth world”; the hosts discuss politics in literature more broadly ([09:50]–[10:16]).

2. Thematic Framing: Performance, Agency, and Passivity

• The main character is an unnamed, upper-middle-aged actress of some renown, recognized but not a celebrity ([24:47]).
• The book unsettles reality: “If you try to determine what is real and what is not, you are doing it wrong. You kind of have to let this one wash over you” (Andrew, [06:30]).
• Kitamura is “interested in characters that are passive,” countering the creative writing maxim that protagonists need agency ([15:47]).
• The novel deliberately blurs the boundaries between rehearsal and reality, performance and life, as well as family roles and memory.

3. Plot Structure and Surreal Doubling

Part One: Ambiguous Family, Subtle Dread

• The protagonist is approached by Xavier, a younger man who believes he is her son after reading an interview about her “giving up a child.” In reality, she had a miscarriage; the child never existed ([25:31]–[29:58]).
• The scene establishes the protagonist’s deep passivity—she is unwilling to clarify the truth to Xavier and seems unable to act decisively in her own life.
• Her marriage to Tomas is shown as routine but vulnerable. Tomas secretly hopes for a child and, after the miscarriage, the couple finds stability in habit rather than affection ([27:17]–[36:30]).
• The theme of external judgment: The protagonist keenly senses how others at the restaurant perceive her with Xavier, but the audience never learns if this is real or imagined ([31:58]).

Part Two: Surreality and Reality Shifting

• Reality “flips”: The next section opens with Xavier accepted as her and Tomas’s literal son, as if he has always been their child, but the protagonist and readers are left uneasy about this new “fact” ([46:49]–[49:02]).
• Memories become unreliable, details of Xavier’s childhood are blurry or generic ([49:02]).
• Family dynamics become stranger—Xavier’s partner Hannah enters, interactions become stilted, allegiances shift, and reality becomes progressively destabilized. Tomas grows oddly servile, the routine of pastries becomes exaggerated, and domestic roles slip into bizarre social performance ([54:19]–[55:33]).
• “It’s as if we’re all in this weird, wobbly, jello reality and nobody knows what’s going on” (Andrew, [58:59]).
• The surrealism never resolves: “You keep feeling like someone is going to come in and turn all the lights on, but it never happens” ([60:43]–[61:16]).

4. Major Thematic Motifs & Literary Allusions

• Performance vs. Reality:
  “Because, in fact, we don’t want to see the thing itself on a screen or a stage. We don’t want to see actual pain or suffering or death, but its representation… Without intentionality, there was no agency, no control. The work was happening to you—an impossible inversion” ([39:48], reading from novel).
• Unreliable Narration / Dream Logic:
  The shifting family structure evokes literary and pop culture examples (Buffy, Mulholland Drive, Perfect Blue) where memory—and even the “role” of people—changes mid-narrative, destabilizing the reader ([50:08]–[52:14]).
• Female Agency and Passive Protagonist:
  Kitamura’s choice to center unnamed, passive, midlife female characters—normally at the narrative periphery—invites reflection on who gets to be at the center of stories ([19:37]–[20:33]).
• Opaqueness and Literary Experimentation:
  “What makes Audition distinctive is a precision, a sharpness of focus, bare of corroborating detail… to dispense completely with the markers of time, place, and status is almost unheard of” (London Review of Books, quoted at [64:04]).

5. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On reality and agency:
  “Her passivity helps make it less clear what reality is… There’s no second source.” (Andrew, [30:04])
  “She is not even willing to assert her own unreliability.” (Craig, [30:30])
• On art and performance:
  “Performance allows this dangerous proximity. Without it, Salvation was only a snuff film.” (Andrew, reading from novel, [39:48])
• On interpretation and destabilization:
  “You keep feeling like someone is going to come in and turn all the lights on… but it never happens.” (Craig, [60:43])
• Describing the overall vibe:
  “It’s a strange book, man.” (Andrew, [57:13])
• On value as a reading experience:
  “I wouldn’t say that I liked reading it… but from a small remove, I appreciate what it’s doing more than I maybe could when I was trapped in it with the protagonist.” (Andrew, [63:45])

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Important Timestamps

• Author & Novel Context: [05:50]–[19:37]
• Character, Race, and Ambiguity: [10:36]–[13:21]
• Discussion of Passivity and Agency: [15:47]–[16:53], [18:44]–[20:33]
• Overview of Plot and Structure: [24:23]–[49:02]
• Transition to Surreal Second Section: [46:48]–[49:02]
• Major Thematic Reading—Performance vs. Reality: [39:48]
• Comparisons to Other Media/Works: [50:08]–[52:14], [61:09]–[62:46]
• Audience and Reviewer Reactions: [65:28]–[68:18]
• Host Reflections and Closing Thoughts: [63:45]–[64:04]

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Final Reflections

• Emotional Impact:
  The hosts agree that the experience of reading Audition is intellectually stimulating but emotionally chilly—even “unmoored and full of dread”—a point echoed by reviewers ([67:19], [67:44]).

• Literary Merits:
  The writing is expertly crafted, praised for its “sharpness of focus,” intentional omission of detail, and the destabilizing effect this has on the reader ([64:04], [66:08]).

• On Interpretation:
  The novel steadfastly refuses to clarify its reality, echoing Kitamura’s own description of it as a “rabbit/duck” (optical illusion, [15:01]), existing in simultaneous, contradictory states—both for the protagonist and for the reader.

• Would They Recommend It?
  More for those who appreciate literary experiment and ambiguity than those seeking narrative satisfaction or catharsis ([63:45], [68:14]).

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Summary for the Uninitiated

Andrew and Craig’s discussion of Audition is a deep dive into a novel that makes its reader question everything: memory, truth, agency, and even the boundaries of fiction. The podcast frames Audition as a unique work in modern literature—spare, ambiguous, sometimes frustrating, but always finely crafted—that burrows into the knotty heart of being a subject and an object at the same time, on stage and in life. The book dares readers to exist in a suspended state of doubt, much as its protagonist does. Their conversation is thoughtful, often funny, and candid about the uneasy brilliance of Kitamura’s work.

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Further Listening:

• [24:23]–[39:48]: For a detailed breakdown of the first section and setup
• [46:48]–[58:59]: For exploration of the surreal reality shift
• [63:45]–[68:18]: For verdicts, critiques, and how the book “feels” in the end

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Transcript

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

Yeah, I was gonna say the only thing I'm catching with my Mint Mobile service is all the bits and bytes from the Internet that I, that I am asking for with my good connectivity.

[Craig]

Because you have switched to Mint Mobile, you use them.

[Andrew]

Yes, I switch. I switched in Mint Mobile many years ago before they were ever an advertiser on the show. I am a happy customer and I. That's. That's what, that's what I have to say.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Andrew]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] this is a Headgum podcast. While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any

[Craig]

well told tale, they will not shy

[Andrew]

away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

Name's Andrew.

[Craig]

And Andrew, I'm so glad you came in today. I have a few bits of material I'd love you to read. I'm auditioning you for the role of podcaster.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I was gonna ask, do you like I have some stuff prepared that I just kind of do on my normal editions. I didn't know, like, you wanted me to bring in something that I had had or you wanted me to read what you had.

[Craig]

The thing is that, like, podcasters, we just kind of make stuff up. We don't really, like, plan too much, so I didn't want. I. I appreciate you planning. This is kind of a loose environment. Can you just give me your best. What is the best piece of advice you've ever received? That's a common phrase that all podcasters say according to.

[Andrew]

You want me to say those words?

[Craig]

Yeah. What is the best? But like. Like you're a podcaster, though.

[Andrew]

Like, audition for what is the best piece of advice you've ever received.

[Craig]

Can you give me a. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

[Andrew]

Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

[Craig]

Five stars. I use this product personally every day.

[Andrew]

The FCC requires me to disclose that I use this product every day.

[Craig]

You're doing a combination of Monster Truck guy and that French how to pronounce words guy.

[Andrew]

Oh, that guy. I always. I found a. I found him doing a video of a name that wasn't French, and I was like, oh, I thought you just kind of did the French accent on the French ones as a.

[Craig]

Is.

[Andrew]

No, that's just what you sound like.

[Craig]

I love that. Andrew, I think you're going to make it as a podcaster, I think.

[Andrew]

Thanks.

[Craig]

Thanks. We'll see who else comes in. Can't promise anything. We'll have our people call your people.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, you know how in Star Trek the Next Generation and the pilot Q, as played by John de Lancie, comes and announces he's kind of putting humanity on trial. Yeah.

[Craig]

That's a really big thing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And it's a gambit for, like, that episode. But then in the finale of the whole series, he's like, oh, it's been a trial the whole time. I feel like we're both just audition. We're in one long, 750 episode audition, and the judges, the people who give, decide to keep giving us the part, are the listeners.

[Craig]

That's true.

[Andrew]

They do, in a way. That's how I think about it.

[Craig]

Yeah. That is. I've never thought about it that way.

[Andrew]

Well, now you are.

[Craig]

That's because I'm too busy thinking about how. This is our book podcast, where each week one of us reads a book and tells the other person about it. Usually it's one we've never read before. Andrew, what book did you read for this Week on Overdue.

[Andrew]

Wouldn't you know it? I read Audition by Katie Kitamura.

[Craig]

I did actually know that. I put. I put the schedule together and you help.

[Andrew]

I mean, I. We both put the sketch.

[Craig]

Yeah, I know, I know. I made the little Image that's like 10 people upstream.

[Andrew]

You did get into paint.net and make that little image like you do, because graphic design is your passion.

[Craig]

This is not a book either of us had read before. It had cropped up on a number of, like, best of lists from last year, including Barack Hussein Obama.

[Andrew]

And it was shortlisted for the Booker prize in 2025 as well. I think we've read a few things that have been on that either won that award or I think Orbital was a winner of that.

[Craig]

We go to that a lot. Yeah, it was good.

[Andrew]

I mean, because it's good. And they're all like 180 pages long, which is perfect.

[Craig]

It was the finalist for the Pulitzer. It was a finalist for the Pulitzer this year, as well as for the National Book Critics Circle Award, is long listed for the Women's Prize and the Joyce Carol Oates Prize, among others. This is not her debut novel.

[Andrew]

This is.

[Craig]

She's. This is maybe her fifth full length novel. I think my list. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Was implied by the New York Times review of it that I read. Yes.

[Craig]

And yeah, she's a celebrated author, but we have not read her work before. I'm excited to dive in. I understand that this one is a bit of a. Like a Rorschach blob, like, what actually happened here type book, not just thematically, but also characters and plot.

[Andrew]

If you try to determine what is real and what is not, you are doing it. You are reading this one wrong. I think you just kind of have to let this one wash over you and let it play with reality and just concede by the end that you do not know.

[Craig]

I want to.

[Andrew]

I mean, at least that's. That's how I've made myself comfortable with my. My response.

[Craig]

I want a clip of Jonathan Frakes just like reading clips like excerpts from this novel and Kate in the overdue discord. Patreon.com overdue podcast said, I just read Audition in record time, even for a short book, excited for the boys to explain what the heck was happening there. Audiobook. Good.

[Andrew]

So audiobook, good.

[Craig]

Audiobook. I don't know if it was this audiobook or a different audiobook or all audiobooks. Katie Kitamura was born in 1979 in Sacramento. Her father was a professor at UC Davis, where she spent A lot of time growing up, she attended Princeton, got her PhD at the London Consortium in American Literature. Her novels include the long shot from 2009 about MMA fighting. Read a couple of interviews with that she was inspired by. Her brother is like a tattoo artist and has like worked with a bunch of MMA fighters. And she got into that world. She'd also done some like journalism, interviewing fighters and stuff like that.

[Andrew]

Any of the guys that. That got tatted up, they're going to be at the.

[Craig]

I don't know, at the.

[Andrew]

At the White.

[Craig]

They got the White House birthday bash. Yeah, I don't know. Doing the weigh in at the Lincoln Memorial, of all things. God, throw me in a hole. She did give one interview about that book, about how she trained in classical ballet as a kid. So very kind of intimate understanding of physical training and commitment to that. She wrote a book called Gone to the Forest in 2013, among other things about colonialism. Her two most recent books, which form a bit of a triptych with Audition. These books centered on women narrator, like female narrators who are, I believe, all unnamed that are all involved in some form of interpretation or translation as their work. So A Separation 2017. A Translate Literary translator tracks down her estranged husband in Greece. Intimacies In 2021, an interpreter working at the Hague. And then this one audition, which will be about an actress working on a play in New York City. This is her first novel set in America, I think, or at least primarily set in America, which is. Has been commented on in interviews and reviews with her where she talked about finally feeling like she could bring it home. And she started the ideas for this novel under the Biden administration and during the pandemic. And then she's writing a novel with a slippery sense of truth. And she's aware of that happening in the political sphere now. You know, like I read some Goodreads reviews where like people are like this, I need a book that's political. And this has what? This isn't political at all. And you know, Kiddimore is like, I'm writing about women and whether or not they have control over their lives in a post truth world where people may or may not understand the very nature of the story. Yeah, that she's like, that's political enough for me. It's.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's. I think you have to expand. You have to do that thing that people hate, which is. Expand it so that everything is political. Well, yeah, then the book is plenty political.

[Craig]

But it's true because art is all artist political. She teaches Creative writing at nyu. She's written for the Guardian, New York Times, Wired and more, doing art criticism and, as I said, MMA journalism, among other things. What else is there? Did you come across anything in your prep for the book, Andrew? I'm just going to scroll through my notes now to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[Andrew]

No, not really. Like, my. My prep for the episode was mainly just reading. Reading the book. I did not. Purposely did not read a lot of stuff. Um, the. The one thing to mention, like, I guess up front, as you mentioned, it being her first set in America, it being primarily set in New York City. Like, whether the book is political or not, the book does just make, like, a passing reference to the characters being, like, of a race. Like, of an exposed.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Presumably not white or white passing race. But it's never part of it. It's not like you. The. The actress in question, like, has fans come up to her a couple times and do the. You know, it was so important to me to see somebody who looked like me up on a screen.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And the book is never specific about what exactly that means. Like, it is. It's a weird. It's. It's weirdly like it does. It does mention race, but it's not trying to be about that at all in a way that was like, is this going to. Like, is this going to get more specific at any point? And it never really does. So I don't know if that.

[Craig]

Like, I read one interview where, yeah, I'm fairly certain that she said the. The protagonist was Asian American, but I don't.

[Andrew]

I had. I had assumed. Yeah.

[Craig]

But I don't know. I don't know for sure, and I can't. That's not one of the ones I pulled. She does talk about. Oh, no. Oh, here we go. Because she talks in this one interview with the New Yorker. Ironically, given the setting, the novel. That's funny.

[Andrew]

New York City.

[Craig]

Two. Two things. One, she says the novel in general has quite a reduced palette. It's not a novel in which the physical reality of the world is elaborated upon at length. There's a handful of objects, and I knew I had to make the objects do a lot of work, that they would be objects that would appear in the first half of the novel and then again in the second half with a different set of connotations and meanings. And I wanted. She talks about. There's like something about pastries. She said she wanted the pastries to be more than pastries in some way, and that is related to some commentary on the fact that she's very spare with character detail. Apparently the main character's husband is involved in, like, Czech Cubism or something.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

And she says, I think that detail is there because it was important to imply that he. That the husband had an emigre culture, that he comes from the outside in some way, much as the narrator, who is Asian American, is American, but comes from outside as well. That detail was doing a bit of embroidery on the relationship. And then two questions later in the interview, she just finds herself laughing that she picked Czech Cubism, like she can't even really believe what she did.

[Andrew]

Yeah. It's a way of adding, again, as with maybe the race thing, a little bit. It's a way of adding detail that ultimately doesn't. Like. It's. It's specific, but then it's not specific like it means something and it doesn't mean something. It's important, but it's not important at all.

[Craig]

Like, I think it's a little pat to make some overt comparisons to how, like, a lot of plays work. But she does talk about. In. In some of these interviews, obviously, there will be the main characters and actress is working on a play. She talks about some of the playwrights she likes to read and how she likes this idea that characters are in kind of a pressure cooker with limited information both about them and for them to interact with. And I think that's not surprising that this is the type of book that. That spat out. The main thing I forgot to mention was that it is inspired by an article that she didn't read.

[Andrew]

Okay. Like, doing the. Like, oh, yeah, I saw the headline for an article. But then writing a whole book about

[Craig]

it after she says the headline she saw was, quote, a stranger told me he was my son. And she told npr, I never read the article because I immediately knew that I wanted to write a novel on the premise. Didn't want any more information.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

And then she kind of thought that it was fascinating that, you know, you could have a son and have them be a stranger to you. And then she remarked upon this idea to a friend of hers who had a kid in college, and her friend said, that's just a description of parenthood. Every time my son. My son comes home, he's different.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And that kind of, like, cracked it open for her as something to write a book about. She refers to it as a kind of rabbit duck book. You know what that means, Andrew?

[Andrew]

What does that mean?

[Craig]

You ever drank any duck rabbit beer? I think that's a brand of beer.

[Andrew]

You know what that is?

[Craig]

You can draw the head of a rabbit such that it also looks like a duck.

[Andrew]

Oh, sure.

[Craig]

And she. And like, it's. It's like that optical illusion of the old lady, like, young lady thing.

[Andrew]

Or like the two faces in the hourglass.

[Craig]

Yes. Where, like, it is. It's not that you're solving the image. It is that it is literally both things at the same time.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Laurel and Yanny. I get it.

[Craig]

Yeah. It's. It's the dress. You're right.

[Andrew]

Everything's the dress.

[Craig]

And the last thing I will share. You know, she talks about being interested in characters that are passive. You know, she's a creative writing instructor and she says that in workshop, if there's a character who the group doesn't feel has agency, it's often brought up as a criticism of the character. Of course, the reality is very few of us have total agency and we operate under the illusion or the impression that we have a great deal of it. But in reality, our choices are quite constricted. So she's interested in characters that maybe are a little bit more passive than you might want to be or that people might be interested to tell stories about.

[Andrew]

Yeah. That's interesting because I do, like, again, in the New York Times review of the book that I read, and I did just read a couple professional reviews of it to, like, helpful.

[Craig]

Helpful.

[Andrew]

More myself after I had read it and was like, okay, well, now I've got to talk about this for an hour. Yeah, no, I gotta unpack how I feel about this. And. Oh, man, I lost my train of thought. What were we talking about?

[Craig]

Oh, this was talking about the agency and passivity. Oh, oh, oh.

[Andrew]

Yes. So, yeah, the review mentioned that the character felt passive and that Kitamura's characters often feel passive. And yeah, in the book, she does seem to struggle almost to physically interact with anything in her world in a way that would make a difference in the. In the story. And it is like, again, it's. It's like the. You just have to admit that you're not going to know what's real thing. For me, like, I just kind of had to let the character wash over me and just, like, experience the stuff that. That is. That is happening and. And just be okay with that being what the book was doing.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, it's. At first you sort of want to yell like, oh, you gotta. Would you please do something? But then. But the kind. But it's not. The book isn't going for very long before it's like, she. Even if she did hear me yelling, I don't. It wouldn't. She wouldn't change the way that she was interacting with things.

[Craig]

Sure. Well, that's kind of one of those things where, like, if you only write books about people who are like, doing things John Wick style, then that's like the only type of story you could. It's like, interesting to think what types of people don't get stories about them. If we don't find out. If you don't find ways to create some compelling art around them, you know.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

And then the last thing I'll share, she also, in this New Yorker article, talks about how these last. For her first few books, she centered them on male characters. She says, I think the choice to write first person female narrators was incredibly personal. I had to do with my own sense of comfort as a writer. She didn't do an mfa. She was, you know, had been studying American literature and she says, writing mail.

[Andrew]

She did an mma. You said already.

[Craig]

Oh, a Masters of Male Art.

[Andrew]

Masters of Fighting Arts is an mfa.

[Craig]

Writing male characters is not very difficult because there's a vast canon of male characters written by men for men. For any writer to draw from, finding the voice of a male character in so many ways is what a PhD in American literature trains you to do. What felt to me more challenging was to write female characters. And so I took a little bit more time to get there. It's something that holds so much more depth and interest to me. It feels inexhaustible. So she's, she's aware of the arc of her career, which is really interesting for somebody who seems to be putting out, you know, work like this. That is just feels a little more off the beaten path than somebody who kind of talks so even like openly about the context she's working in.

[Andrew]

I don't know. Yeah, It's a book about an actress who is in like upper middle age. And that by itself, like, if you are writing in that zone, you're writing in a place where it's gonna be super under explored because that kind of performer, you know, they get. They get to be the mother or the grandmother or something. The story is not usually about them for the vast majority of written and recorded, like fiction.

[Craig]

Yeah, well. And she talks about, I think it was one of her previous books, has a main character that's in her 30s or maybe early 40s. And all the marketing and some of the reviews remark on the character being very young because, like she does growing and things happen Things change. And she remarked in interviews, she's like, I mean, that could happen to people who are old. Like, they don't have to be young to, like, grow.

[Andrew]

And we've, we've read a million debut novel, literally a million debut novels by people who were in their, like, 40s and 50s. They wrote them. Yeah.

[Craig]

So, all right, that's Kitamura and the prep for this book. We'll take a break and then on the other side, we'll be entirely different, except, oddly, the same.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And we won't mention, we won't talk about it. And you just have to figure out which half of the podcast is the real half.

[Craig]

Good luck.

[Andrew]

Or if any half is real at all. Hi, I'm Beck Bennett. I thought I was Beck Bennett. No, no, no, no, it's okay. Kyle Mooney. Yes. Sorry about that. Exactly. No, all good. All good. Thanks, buddy.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And we host the show what's our

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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I don't.

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I like that I don't have to go around, you know, like different stores or something. It's just all, well, it's like, oh,

[Andrew]

do I need to go to, like, do I need another type of website to, like, find the right pictures or

[Craig]

like another type of website to upload? You know, it's all in one place. The video or the audio or like.

[Andrew]

No, I want it makes it easy. Make it easy on me, please. Yes. And you can do all those things. Photos, videos, changing fonts, you know, I mean, the designs are amazing. They're catering to all your different needs. Their SEO tools, which. I know what those are. And their custom domains. Oh, let's come up with a domain right now. Let's see.

[Craig]

I wonder if it exists. Www.friendsmeeting friends. Friends meeting friends.com that's an original thing

[Andrew]

that we came up with. Friends meeting friends. Anyway, so check out squarespace.com headgum for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code HEADGUM.

[Craig]

Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hell, sounds easy.

[Andrew]

Anybody could do it.

[Craig]

Ready when you Are Andrew, just take it away.

[Andrew]

Okay, so I have, what I've prepared is a sort of 40ish minute, just a free range, like free range, free rambling conversation about this book called Audition by Katie Kitamura.

[Craig]

A little longer than we usually want in an audition.

[Andrew]

Yeah, but, and I will, if it's okay, I would like for you to just come and like sort of bounce things off of me because we are. This is a podcast audition.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

So I envision this more as like a co host thing and not just like me like Roman Mars, just like sounding smart by myself.

[Craig]

All right. We were thinking of something different, but we're open to new ideas here at the podcast company that I run, which is called the podcast company.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

TPC for short here. So yeah, why don't you just, you know, get up? Do you need a chair? Do you need.

[Andrew]

Could I, could I get kind of like a, an, you know, like a me a mid range office chair that I can kind of idly swivel around in as, as we talk to each other?

[Craig]

Yeah, go for it. We don't usually use an office chair chair in auditions. Speaking from my theater days, usually do not use one with wheels.

[Andrew]

Well, I mean that's theater though. This is podcast.

[Craig]

This is the fair enough theater of

[Andrew]

the theater of the mic.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm not giving you a gamer chair for the audition. That's after you get the gig.

[Andrew]

Gamer chairs for streaming, which again is different. Yeah, well I've been on a couple streamer auditions and those, those get wild.

[Craig]

Here at the podcast company we're open to video for better and for worse. Supposedly for worse. Go ahead Andrew, take it away.

[Andrew]

So Audition by Katie Kitamura is a book that I read for our book podcast. This has been fun. This has been a fun bit. The book is split up into two parts and the two parts sort of define the two realities of the book. But I would say that the first one is more stable and the second one is more weird.

[Craig]

Uh huh.

[Andrew]

And yeah, so in our, in our opening scene in the opening part of the book, we are with our protagonist who is an unnamed sort of upper middle aged woman who is a, is an actress of some renown. Like she's not super famous. She's not like get recognized on the street all the time famous, but she was in like one film that was sort of a breakout role for her and since then she has worked steadily and she is in a, she's in a play now that is going to go up pretty soon and she's sort of playing the. Playing the lead. And that's what's happening.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And she is at a dinner with this younger man named Xavier.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And Xavier is. It's not clear how he, like, came into her orbit in the. In the first place. Like, he. He is sort of involved in the play in a way, but it seems to mostly be as. As an. To another woman who's in it.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But he has hunted down the protagonist because he read in an interview that she gave once that she had given. The interview said that she had given up a child. And she makes it clear in her own inner monologue that she was talking about a miscarriage that she had. Like, she and her husband Tomas had not. Not intentionally. She had gotten pregnant, and she carried it for, like, nine to 11 weeks and then had a miscarriage. And it was. It was a sort of a big moment for her because she hadn't. You know, she hadn't planned to have kids. She hadn't even really made a decision whether to, like, keep the pregnancy or whether to get rid of it before that. It was sort of taken out of her hands. But when her husband Tomas found out, he was, like. It was clear to her that he was, like, overjoyed about this development.

[Craig]

Oh, the miscarriage?

[Andrew]

No, the pregnancy.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And he had downloaded, like, an app to his phone, that one at one of the. Like, your baby is. Is your. You know, your fetus is as big as this yo, man, peace thing. Yeah, I know. I know you know of it, what I'm talking about. Yeah. What's the.

[Craig]

There's lime. I think I've said on air before the fruit. Lime is what really blew me away, because then I literally said to Laura, I've met him. Like, I've met a lot.

[Andrew]

I know. I know him. Yeah. Tomas, for whom that world was always a blink away, so that if he simply squinted, it would come into focus. And for Tomas, in those two months, it was as if the world was within grasp. He was aware of my ambivalence, so he was careful to hide the euphoria that now accompanied him everywhere. Inconvenient and irrepressible. Still, it was only two weeks after the positive test that he secretly downloaded the app onto his phone, the one that would tell him what size the embryo was vis a vis various species of fruit. Blueberry, kumquat, eventually pineapple, although we never reached the pineapple stage, not even the lemon stage. The project folded at fig.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Andrew]

And I did. That was a. It's not a funny book.

[Craig]

No, but the way.

[Andrew]

Talking about a miscarriage in the way that you would talk about like a. A production that.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

That didn't get off the ground well. And that kind of strike me as darkly funny, you know, so artful to

[Craig]

do it both through the lens of the actress and the lens of the app and, like, just like, so cleverly mesh the two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I know what you mean. In those books that are like, this is. I have to admire the artistry of this, like, line delivery, even though. Because there's. There's humor or there's.

[Andrew]

It's more clever than clever. And yeah, often I react to clever with a. With a laugh or like a mental chortle or something. So even though it's not a. It is not a. Obviously not a funny situation at all.

[Craig]

It's bad. And. And like, also, I can already get a sense of, oh, wow, he was very excited for a pregnancy. She was at best, sheveling about. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And so Xavier is turned up with this misunderstood thing because that he shares a race with the. With our protagonist, whatever that race may be.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

He has convinced himself that he must. He must be. He's always felt with her affinity for her performance in a way that makes him think that he is the child that she gave up. Oh, yeah. And she. In. In a. In an example of her passivity and how she sort of seems unwilling or unable to. To. To influence her world at all. There. There is not a point where she is like, listen, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. Like I had. She thinks to herself, I had this abortion. It was the thing that the interviewer did. And the book, you know, riffs for a little bit on how much we don't even want to talk about the word abortion. Like, how it just doesn't like that. That's part of the misunderstanding is that they. They just didn't want to talk about it that way.

[Craig]

Is she instead going, did I. Or is she going, how do I tell this guy?

[Andrew]

She is not really thinking any of that stuff because, like, the. Now the scene gets interrupted. And I'll talk about that in a sec. But, like, just. Just thinking through my reaction to the book as we. As we talk about it, as I. As I often do, like, her passivity helps make it less clear what reality is.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Because it's clear that her perspective, for whatever reason, is. Is unreliable. And.

[Craig]

Yeah. She's not even willing to assert her own unreliable.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And so there's no, like, there's no second Source like off. Often in these books where there's an unreliable narrator, you will be given, at some point, some hint of what truth is or, you know, that what truth could be. And this. This book is never interested in giving you that kind of. Kind of device. Like, you're never given a second person's head to be in, to figure out what reality was. And I think based on the blurbs about the book that I read, I had somehow gotten into my head that that that is what the book was like. It was split into two parts. And you get one part from one person's perspective and then another part from another person's perspective, but it's weirder than that. And that would change everything about how you viewed the first part. But no, it's weirder than that because there's, like, continu. There isn't. Yeah, but so they're. They're at this dinner, and this, you know, you. You learn this information about Xavier and the. And the protagonist. And then Tomas, her husband, comes into the. To the restaurant.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Andrew]

And she is like, oh, because she thinks, you know, he's gonna. He's gonna see me here with this young man. And she's already been observing people observe them and, like, making assumptions about what they are assuming about this older woman here with this younger man. Like, you know, is he. Is he. Is he her son? Is he some kind of escort situation? Is this, like a May December thing? Like, just feeling the weight of the judgment that she's feeling from everybody around her?

[Craig]

Yeah, that's a.

[Andrew]

And that's another thing that makes the perspective, like, unreliable, I think, is because in books, the people will be like, oh, this person gave me a look. And then from that look, I inferred these three paragraphs of information. But in reality, like, no. No person is paying this much attention to what other external person is doing. Like, I don't know if, like, maybe it's possible that the judgment she's feeling is invented and in her own head, but we don't know. It's another source of uncertainty.

[Craig]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Andrew]

And all this stuff just, like, snowballs over the course of the. Of the book, as you like, as realities sort of change and implode and get weirder and more surreal. So Tomas comes into the restaurant. She is about to stand up and say hi to him, just assuming that he's gonna see her. And if she seems to invite his attention, maybe it's going to make him. Tomas, less. Less suspicious of whatever it is that's going on here with her. And this younger man, and he. It's not clear if he sees her or not, but he stops like, just as she is like standing up to wave at him. He stops, he turns around and leaves. And then she leaves the restaurant and she goes home and Tomas is there and things seem like kind of normal. Ish. You learn through this passage a few. A couple things about their marriage, just that it's there, it's implied that there have been sort of problems in the past, but now it's pretty stable and she is pretty attached to him. And it's just like they have all these little routines. They have the. Like this. She goes to the cafe downstairs and gets like pastries for them to eat for breakfast and they like have a nightcap at night and they, you know, they just have this comfortable little life that seems sort of mundane but also is comfortable and it would be bad if it exploded. And she doesn't. She doesn't want it to explode.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And so they have sort of an interaction where she is trying to figure out like, did he. Did he see me? How does he feel about it? And he's sort of trying to act like nothing is going on, but he's also acting a little weird. And then they decide, hey, let's go out for dinner. And then he sort of embraces her. And then he just says point blank. And it's kind of a. It's a surprise when it comes. But he just quietly says to her, you're not cheating on me again, are you? Again? Yeah. And that again. That again is a big. That again is. Is what is sort of striking about

[Craig]

it the first time that we have even heard of an again.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And you know, you can, you can. In the, in the previous section where you're talking about their marriage, you can sort of, you know, what, what is. What is one of the big things that can, that can introduce like a distrust and instability into a marriage. Oh, it's. It's infidelity.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So you can sort of assume from. From one of their ends or the other. But yeah, it's just the. The way that he just kind of drops it quietly after this scene of kind of pretending that everything is. Is okay. And it heightens the. How much can I trust this person who said I'm in feeling. Yeah, because she's not really thought about her infidelities.

[Craig]

No, of course.

[Andrew]

And she does. And she, you know, so, so going forward in this, in this part one of the book, she does, she does talk about it a little bit. She does or think about it, I guess, as just like a thing that she went through. Like, partly as a. It seems like partly a response to Tomas's response to the miscarriage and the sort of expectations that he sort of seemed to have of what their lives were going to be. But then she thought. Then she decided not to do that anymore. And that's when they sort of started to build these little stable routines of, you know, you get the pastries in the morning, and you go through the act of being happily married, and you do that for long enough that that becomes what reality is. And then. And then your marriage is okay. And so that's kind of what they did.

[Craig]

Okay. Okay.

[Andrew]

And that's. That's the bulk of what's. What it's important to take away from part one. Like Xavier is.

[Craig]

But maybe he's not.

[Andrew]

Well, you. And in the reality of part one of the book, it seems like he is not. And we are just waiting for them to have the conversation about how he can't possibly be or to find, you know, or maybe to find out more information about who maybe he is.

[Craig]

Yeah. But that doesn't happen.

[Andrew]

So the open question. You get the very barest description of what the play is about. Like, it's this. It. There's just. It's like two separate ideas. And then there's this pivotal scene in the middle that they haven't figured out, where the character makes a transition between what they. What she is in the first part and what she is in the second part. And the protagonist, you know, talking with the playwright, can't even figure out if this is, like, you know, is this. Is this. Is this person. Does this person feel like two entirely separate people on purpose? Or is it because the playwright, like, got bored of the character they were initially writing, like, midway through, through, and then decided to change it. Just, like, can't quite figure it out. And you also. And in amidst all of this, you're just kind of getting a lot of ruminating on the. Like, what is reality? What is performance? Like? Why do we enjoy performance? This is one thing specifically I wanted to read to you. Just listen to you think about it. The play is called. Well, so it's not a. It's not a play. She's talking about something that she was in with an actor that she respected.

[Craig]

Okay?

[Andrew]

And she. There was this movie called Salvation that this actor was in, where his performance was just so powerful and so meaningful to her. And then later, when she worked with him, she found out that the performance that she enjoyed, which had depicted somebody who was like, not sure about reality, was maybe like suffering from dementia a little bit. It was not a performance. And he actually did not, like, couldn't remember of any of his lines, was deteriorating mentally. Like, a lot of the things about the performance that she had reacted to had been like him, literally, like reading his lines off of something or like feeling around because he couldn't remember anything. So she says of that I no longer knew how I felt about Salvation, a work I had previously enjoyed in such a pure and naive way. That instance was gone. I understood all too well what I was seeing. I. And I wondered also if that wasn't the point of a performance, that it preserved our innocence, that it allowed us to live with the hypocrisies of our desire. Because, in fact, we don't want to see the thing itself on a screen or on a stage. We don't want to see actual pain or suffering or death. But its representation, our awareness of the performance, is what allows us to enjoy the emotion, to creep close to it and breathe in its atmosphere. Performance allows this dangerous proximity. Without it, Salvation was only a snuff film. And so I said to Xavier that it did matter. Yes, it did. Without intentionality, there was no agency, no control. The work was happening to you. An impossible inversion.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

That's an interesting. That's not a perspective. I have not read a work of fiction that I think dives into performance and like the. The artifice and the reality of performance that way. I'm sure others have, but, like, what an interesting way to put it.

[Andrew]

I mean, I think we touched on this a little bit when we had our. The biggest argument we've ever had about whether acting is lying or not. Yeah, because there is. It does hinge on a commonly understood. Like the person on the screen and the person in the seat both acknowledge it as artifice and have an implicit agreement that we're going to like, put. Box that reality up and put it aside so that we can interact in this way for a little while. And yeah, I just thought this was an interesting way to state it, to sort of talk about it.

[Craig]

It reminds me of a few things. One is, obviously you're bringing up our old fight. And how in my brain, one of the things I think about is that for many actors, not all of them, and some of them do it selectively, whatever they're drawing from when they are exploring a character is still a true experience for them because they are literally the person doing it. So if they're finding their way Into a character, it is often through a personal experience. A person they know, even whatever sources they use to, to concoct the character are choices that they make. So there's like a, there's a real personal thing that happens when the actor creates the fictional illusion. So there's that in film and even in theater. There is also the thing I'm thinking about with this, which is the, the artifice or not artifice, even just the superstructure around the performance. So something like what is described in the book when there's a film. So much of it is like mediated through the edit, let alone the cinematography.

[Andrew]

Well, the edit and the. Yeah, the director and like there are a million people making decisions behind the camera that goes into what is and

[Craig]

I think captured the last three decades of reality TV have also driven home to a lot of people and become way more overt to it to the common audience member that there is a lot of work being done in the control booth.

[Andrew]

Yeah. People understand what the, what the villain edit is.

[Craig]

Yeah. You know, the thing that, that like specific note makes me think about one

[Andrew]

is

[Craig]

I'm thinking about what movie am I thinking about?

[Andrew]

I don't know, man.

[Craig]

I've lost the movie example I was thinking about. But I was thinking about a play that I worked on called. Well, I was, I was working at the company that put it on. It's an Athol Fugard play called the Train Driver. And it is a based on a kind of horrific story of someone taking their own life by walking in front of a train in South Africa. It's wrapped up in the, you know, post apartheid politics of South Africa based on a true story. But you can't just put that on stage in front of people. You can't drive a train through a theater, first of all. And second, that attitude, like to what the book says, you want to get close to what the emotion is, but you don't actually want to meet anybody involved. That would be too terrifying and awful. It'd be too powerful. And yet even then the play is so powerful and so upsetting that our company decided to do a post show conversation after literally every performance just so that people had 15 minutes to metabolize what they'd experienced and remind themselves that the people they saw were pretend and that they were in an audience of people who had experienced it together. Because otherwise you leave that room and you're like, wow, I watched the most bummer thing I've ever seen and I think it was never coming back. Yeah. You actually like could mistake your emotional Response to the story for a. An intellectual response for the art.

[Andrew]

Yes. You know, like, you're. You're feeling the way the art wanted you to feel.

[Craig]

And. And you think if you haven't talked to anybody about. You're like, oh, it's bad. I hate this art. And you're like, no, the art is good. It's just effective.

[Andrew]

It just made you feel bad. Yeah.

[Craig]

Like all of that is swimming around. Around my head as I hear that. That's kind of neat. Okay. Is any of this part. Is any of this book, like, just the play? No. Okay. I was like. As I was reading reviews, I was wondering if that was part of. Okay, okay. Okay.

[Andrew]

Part one kind of ends just as they are gearing up for a rehearsal of this apparently pivotal scene. And then part two. It's weird because there is like kind of a chrono. Like, the play exists in both realities and the book is proceeding sort of chronologically. Like, when you get to part two and you get to this new reality that we're going to talk about in a sec, it's not as though you're resetting back to the. Like the initial restaurant scene. It's like as you end part one, the play is going up soon, but it's not up yet. Then as you enter part two, the play has gone up. It's been a huge success. It's been extended three times. Her performance is, like one of the. One of the most acclaimed of her career so far. And the sort of the confusion of it and like, the. The. The time that. The rough time she was having, like, finding the character and like, doing that. That scene that bridged the two parts of the creative work ended up being, like, the best part of it. And no two performances are quite the same because she's sort of finding different things in it every night. And it's been this. This energizing, successful thing. You. So as. As part two opens, you are at a restaurant. Well, we were seated at a table for three in the center of a restaurant beneath the spotlight. Our faces were in partial shadow, moving in and out of the light as we spoke. Sat back as we took up the menus and reached for our glasses. It was the same restaurant where I had met Xavier for lunch all those months ago, before he began working with Anne, before the success of Rivers, which is the name of the play. Although this time we were together, the three of us, me, Tomas and Xavier. And so, you know, the play has gone up, so this is still part of reality. She still met with Xavier at A restaurant a couple months ago. Okay, so. Okay, fine, sure. And then you just get, like, your first hint of something. Like something being off, something being different. Once we had ordered, Tomas reached for his wine and said he wanted to toast the extraordinary success of the play. As he lifted his glass, I gaz gazed at Tomas and then at Xavier. Their faces soft and smiling in the light, united in the same expression, each an echo of the other.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Andrew]

What?

[Craig]

What?

[Andrew]

Wait, what's going on? What. How these. How does. How did Tomas and Xavier have anything to do with each other? I thought that Tomas thought the Xavier was somebody who. His wife was cheating on him. Cheating on with him, or cheating, Cheating, Cheating. Cheating. Cheating. Cheating on him with.

[Craig]

Right, With Cheating him on.

[Andrew]

Cheating with on him.

[Craig]

This is. This is itself a hall of mirrors in which nothing is true.

[Andrew]

Why am I trapped in this cul de sac? Tomas thought that Xavier and his wife were cheating. She.

[Craig]

Okay, but. But not now.

[Andrew]

No, no, not now. Now their faces are an echo of each other. What's going on? And it. It becomes clear, like, pretty soon after. So z. You know, and Xavier's still working with Ann. Like, that's still a thing. That is a. That It's. There's a continuity between these two realities. You're not even sure that reality is different. Except for when you read the blurb to pick this book for your book podcast, you read something about how it was split into two different realities at about the midway point. So I'm, like, geared up to expect something. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why yet.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And then it's in this reality, and it is what I want to stress. In this reality, Xavier is Tomas and the protagonist's son.

[Craig]

Literal son.

[Andrew]

Literal son. Biological son.

[Craig]

Okay, it is.

[Andrew]

But what the book is. What. What the reality in this section is kind of is that he's been their son the whole time, like, from childhood. They've known him the whole time. It's not that he came and he met her at this dinner, and now we are a few months down the road in the same timeline, and they have, like, a mother and son relationship and we're learning about that. No, this is a different thing.

[Craig]

In which they. In which he's always been their son.

[Andrew]

In which he's always been their son.

[Craig]

Yeah. Great.

[Andrew]

But the. The reason I talk about the second half of the book having, like, a less stable reality than the first half is because whenever she, like, she regularly has these weird moments where she tries to think, like, what was he like as a child. What was my relationship with him like? And there are like holes in her memory and she can't quite remember some things. And then even the things that she does remember have this sort of like, weird or generic quality to them. So it's. It is you. You're dealing with Xavier in this part of the book as though he is their son. But also she sees. She doesn't really seem to have a handle on what her relationship with him is.

[Craig]

It's just a fact. It. This reminds me of the dreams I've had where I, upon waking, know that I was in someone else's house, but in the reality of the dream, it was my house. This is a thing I've experienced in dreams like my whole life.

[Andrew]

This is like a little bit like season five of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Craig]

Oh yeah.

[Andrew]

Where Michelle Trachtenberg plays Buffy's little sister Dawn. And it's presented in the show as though she had had this little sister the whole time. Like she's an old. She's in old pictures. Like Buffy's mom remembers Dawn. Like they've been sisters this whole time. They have this pre established relationship. But. But you're like, wait, I just watched four seasons of the show and this character did not exist. What's going on? And then event like the rest of the season is about kind of unpacking that, unpacking it and like finding out where she came from and different characters kind of realizing that she's not like, quote unquote real and that there was a version of reality that existed before her and that the memories were like, put inside all their heads by like magical monks. But then, but then that character, the character Don is just on the show for the rest of the time. Like that is the new reality now. And they all like kind of reconcile their, their magical memories with, with their real ones and accept it as the new reality. Like that. That's. That's not at all what's going on here. But I did think, like, this is. There could easily be like a Buffy or a Star Trek episode happening, like just outside of the perspective of this novel where somebody has like hologrammed memories into somebody and the uncertainty that's being created is their mind, like, subconsciously knowing that something is wrong. Like, that's the kind of story I was thinking of when I was reading those little bits.

[Craig]

There's a funny bit in a later season of Boy Meets World where Corey's younger sister appears for the first time in several seasons now. She was a character in the first season. I'm Pretty sure. And she does. One of the first lines she has is, I got sent to my room and I was up there for a long time.

[Andrew]

I think there was one. Like, there's a sister on. I want to say it's Roseanne.

[Craig]

Oh, maybe. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Who was played by, like, two different actors.

[Craig]

Oh, okay.

[Andrew]

But. But in later seasons, like, they just kind of Both would do it, like, depending on who was available in the real world. And you just kind of had to accept that they were both. They could both be that character.

[Craig]

I can't verify that claim, but I do know that might be even weirder given the later seasons of Roseanne and what happens on that show where things are dreams or not.

[Andrew]

Okay, anyway, Memory, storytelling. This is all. This is all the tapestry that the book is weaving. And it invites you to think about other stories where you're playing with the nature of memory and relationships and whatever. And so Xavier is moving back into their apartment. He's working with Anne. He's barely going to be there, he says, but he's moving back into their apartment. And you're getting all these weird little bits where Tomas and Xavier have a close relationship. But then Tomas keeps insisting, like, oh, like, you're the one whose approval Xavier is looking for. Like, you're the one who. Who is sort of dictating what his emotional state is. But he's, like, almost never around, and their interactions are very rote and weird. And every once in a while, he acts like he doesn't know where the knives are. Like, he didn't grow up in this place.

[Craig]

Oh, weird.

[Andrew]

And then he, like, his presence, like, he. He starts seeming like he. Like, he. Xavier starts seeming like he's feeling less grateful to them for, like, all the stuff that they're doing. And so they start trying to do, like, a bigger stuff to, like, make him feel more welcome and, like, keep his approval. And then he comes to them being like, hey, I want to, like, my girlfriend Hannah to move in with us. He doesn't. He doesn't even say that because their relationship with each other isn't even defined until the protagonist sees them together. And so she comes, and then she is very weird. And this starts being where I become less able to communicate. What is happening to you in the book?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Is because the protagonist is feeling all very weird about Xavier and what reality is. And, like, Tomas's characterization becomes much less, like, consistent and reliable, starting, like, part of the way through this part of the book, because he's being very, like, servile and desperate for Their attention in a way that he never, you know, we never really got a shot of him being in the first part of the book or in like the early part of this section. And like Xavier, she says to him, oh, I remember you reading all the time, but like, there are. There are all these books in your room and they never change. And then like right after they have that conversation, he starts bringing in like, more and more books all the time. And like the, the piles of them in his room sort of change around a lot as though he's. He's reading, but she never sees him reading. And she's like, is he like going in there and like, shuffling around big piles of books to make it seem like he's reading more? Because. So good, because this is what I expect of him.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And the, the section with Hannah is very strange because Hannah starts treating her instantly like she is the like. Like a difficult old mother in law who needs to be managed.

[Craig]

Oh my goodness.

[Andrew]

And they go down to the cafe and they buy a bunch of pastries, and they buy so many. And she just buys so many pastries because she's feeling so uncomfortable and weird. And they bring all the pastries back up and everybody makes a big fuss over all the pastries even though they're the same pastries. It's just. There's a bunch more of the pastries and the play is ending and she's feeling weird about it, and she's coming home from a performance one night and all the lights are on the apartment. And she goes up into the apartment and all the lights are on and there's some weird confrontation happening where Xavier and Tomas tell the protagonist that Hannah is leaving. But then they're all playing hide and seek together. And then Hannah falls down and then Tomas tries to. He's helping her up, but then he like, cups her boob and she's like, oh, you dirty old man. And it makes the protagonist, like, weirdly, like weirdly jealous because, like now. Oh, it was this part of the reason why Tomas is being so servile to these people is because he wants the attention of this, of this younger woman. And then Hannah gets kicked out. And then Xavier leaves and Tomas and Xavier are still talking, but the protagonist and Xavier aren't really. And the way when they talk about how Tomas is leaving, it feels almost like Xavier has decided this isn't. Like, this isn't a part I want to play anymore. Like this isn't a reality I want to be party to anymore. It's. It's a Weird. It's a strange book, man.

[Craig]

I love it. I think this sounds awesome as heck. I can't. I can't believe it.

[Andrew]

And like he comes like Xavier comes back after a while and he says, oh, I wrote this play. And they, they under like the protagonist and Tomas understand it to be what Xavier was working on all this time. But we only ever really saw Hannah working on it. So we don't really know where it came from. But it's this play that is that apparently it's perfect for the protagonist to play.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

This little bit. What kind of play? I asked at last. And Xavier looked at me. His gaze was steady and clear. And for the first time I had a sense of the consistency of his ego. And I knew that he was someone who could make a piece of work. Many of them perhaps. No, I had not understood him correctly at all. He replied a monologue. And the next question rushed out of me before I could stop it. What kind of part? He nodded as if he had expected the question. And I knew he had heard the greed in my voice just as I myself had heard it. A woman of your age and general disposition, he said. A woman who can no longer distinguish between what is real and what is not real.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

And that was like, that's like as close as we get to sort of. Because that's like right before the, the book ends. Like that's as close as we get to sort of acknowledging that the protagonist doesn't know what's real and what's not real. But it's not as though Xavier and Tomas are like reality based people who are living in one. Who are living in one shared reality. And looking at this, this woman having this breakdown, it's like we're all, we're all in this weird wobbly like jello reality.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And nobody knows what that's going on. Yeah. I don't know. It's. It's a strange like talking about the discord again. Patreon.com overdue pod I knew I don't have the quote pulled up, but I know somebody was in there talking about having read it and just kind of wanting it to be over the whole time like having this like. And there is this weird sense of just like instability and dread and like feeling unmoored the well entire time you're reading it. That was definitely like. It was definitely. It's not a fun feeling. And like talking, talking about it was easier. Sound like you're reading it a little bit. I don't know.

[Craig]

But what I can also Hear in your voice is something you. You mentioned earlier is that, like, sometimes with an unreliable narrator. So, like, I have a list of a couple of things this book has made me. Has reminded me of a part of.

[Andrew]

Apart from like, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Craig]

Apart from Buffy and Boy Meets World and things like that. There's a play by Enda Walsh, it's really kind of rough in terms of the content, called the Walworth Farce, which is like this dad has been making his sons enact this awful, like, weird play inside their house for many, many years. And that's a play that you watch and you. By the end of it, there is a, like, reality intrudes. And finally the playwright is like, okay, all the stuff you've been watching is this, like, weird, awful machination by a character. And here's what the real world is.

[Andrew]

Yes. Yeah.

[Craig]

You can deal with it.

[Andrew]

Often reality at the end of those stories kind of intrudes in the form of a twist and.

[Craig]

And what you're kind of what I can.

[Andrew]

And then it recon. And then it recontextualizes everything.

[Craig]

Yes. What I can hear in both your setup of this discussion and in your recollection of the last third of the book is like. And you keep feeling like someone is gonna show up and like, for lack of a better word, like, turn all the lights on. Right. You, like walk into the room, you turn the lights on in the theater, and then everybody is like, revealed to be actually this. Actually that. Actually so and so.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And this book seems to barrel past that ever happening or doesn't even.

[Andrew]

Or, like, doesn't get there.

[Craig]

No, no. It's like it's never gonna happen. But it keeps feeling like it's going to. Weird feeling.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Craig]

Which it reminds me of two films. Mulholland Drive is actually like a really good comp, I think because that does have a. Like a midway reality shift and is also centered on. Actually they both do. Also centered on an actress. And then Satoshi Con's Perfect Blue, which I think, Andrew, you would really, really like. It's an animated film is similarly about an actress who, like a bunch of stuff is happening around her and she can't really quite tell what reality is. I. I don't think it's a coincidence that women in performing roles who are at the. Like, the mercy is not the right word. But like, there are men who are in roles of controlling the realities they get to be in or. Or the fictions that they get to be in.

[Andrew]

Sure.

[Craig]

Is a recurring theme that is like fertile for this type of storytelling where, like, it seems to go back to what Kitamura is interested in, which is, like, she put a bunch. It's not like the playwright is a woman. Right. I think the playwright's a man. Like, the people putting on. On this show or the people in her life who are, like, telling her what to do and what's going on are all men. Like, that seems very purposeful and is a hallmark of other stories that this is making me think about, which kind of. I don't know. That's neat.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Anything else before I hit you? Maybe with some. Some reviews, Andrew?

[Andrew]

Not really. No. No. I got no guitars in arm's reach, and my office is a. Is a wreck, so I'm not gonna. Not gonna get one this week, so you don't have to. You don't have to vamp while. While I go and get one.

[Craig]

Okay. Well.

[Andrew]

But no, I don't. I don't have any other thoughts. It is. It's a.

[Craig]

Huh.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I. I wouldn't. I don't know if I would say that I. That I liked reading it. Like, there. There have been, like, when we, you know, did, like, the Annie Bot episode and a couple others that. That, like.

[Craig]

Oh, yes, I like.

[Andrew]

This is the book that I. I was entertained by, like, the. The process of. I was entertained and delighted by the process of reading this book. And this one was like, this is a very. This is an interesting book and it's interesting to talk about, but reading it was not fun as such.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So it's been interesting to find a second reality in sort of unpacking it for you where I can sort of, from a small remove, appreciate what it's doing more than I maybe could appreciate it when I was, like, trapped in it with the protagonist. You know what I mean?

[Craig]

Yeah. So, like, first, I will share. There's a London Review of Books article that talks about this novel in context with another novel. I just want to give the author. I can't find it because my link doesn't work. Adam. Adam Mars Jones, maybe is the author, I don't know, says what makes Audition distinctive as a precision, a sharpness of focus, bare of corroborating detail. It's hard to exaggerate how unusual this is in modern literature in general. Modern American literature in general. The obligation to chronicle, to make a record of the times has been a part of the novelist's business for what is, after its fashion, a realistic novel. To dispense completely with the markers of time, place, and status is almost unheard of. I think one of the things that also, I was thinking a little bit. I can't. I don't want to just boss baby this novel, Andrew, because we did have a big reaction to it. But I was thinking about the destabilizing elements of American Psycho with the unreliable narrator stuff.

[Andrew]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

But that is a book that is very concerned with time, place, specific markers of culture. And it. From everything you've reported, this is like, really not leaning into that at all. It is very, you know, opaque in that regard. But I do have a few. Three star Goodreads reviews.

[Andrew]

Three star Goodreads reviews.

[Craig]

Acapella thank you. Oh, yeah. I mean, Anna Kendrick showed up to help you out with that one. Micah says, how who are we if we have no screenplay but masks? Sure, that's an interesting question, but to me, Kitamura's plot left me cold. Nothing much happened except vibes and an actress acting all her way through her existence didn't captivate me. And I mainly pulled through because Kitamura's language and scene composition are of first class. Did you? It felt like this book, maybe not captivated you, but it engrossed you enough that you didn't have problems moving forward in it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, right. And I did. I mean, I did read a bunch of passages to you. Like, it's. Yeah, like the writing is. The writing is good. I don't know. You know, I don't like to, you know, often the. Often the writing is. The writing is good. But. Yes, like the. Just the. Yes, it's. It's a well put together piece of. Of fiction.

[Craig]

I have two kind of contrasting reviews to share with you, to close out. Okay, Melanie says. And this is. Okay, just note the tones of these two reviews. Sure, Melanie. But as delicate and infinitely clever the literary exercise was, the whole experience remained just that for me. An exercise, a highly intellectual experiment, an assignment. I remained in the audience the whole time, outside looking in, painfully aware that I was the observer, the reader, the decipherer. A thrill, certainly, but a bitterly cold one. Reading audition felt like slipping and sliding on a frozen lake, when all I really wanted was to find a fire underneath all this ice. Again, similarly, like, I recognize the art here, it's not connecting with me. I'm struggling to read a book that I'm not connecting with emotionally. Something like that.

[Andrew]

This is like that.

[Craig]

The.

[Andrew]

The play that you. You talked about. Like you. You have. Congratulations. You've correctly identified the way that the author wanted to make you, wanted to make you feel. And you just and you just were like, I don't want to feel that way. And that's fine. Like, that's totally fine. But I do think, yeah, there's nothing inaccurate about how that person described their read.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

It's just. It's just that they didn't care.

[Craig]

They didn't emotionally to deal that way. Yeah, that output. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I don't know if I like emotionally connected with it either, but I don't. I also don know aside from some sort of like side conversations about, about you know, older women, older actresses, like, you know, there's some, there's some even like, you know, miscarriages, like do you decide to have a kid or not? There's emotional stuff in here, but mechanically it is not trying to play.

[Craig]

Get you there.

[Andrew]

Play played on your emotions in some way, you know. Does that make sense?

[Craig]

It does. No. And Retro Witches. So like there's a very literary quality to that review, which I respond. Yeah, Retro Witches says I'll probably always be confused by this one, but I didn't hate it. It had some pretty great writing at times and a lot of super symbolic writing. I'm just a little dumb for it. Lol. This is written in a way that really gives you guessing, leaves you guessing where it's going with the plot.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's all. That also all is is true. I'm also too dumb for it. Lol. But I, I have, I have a. I have a side job as a podcast. Well, I'm auditioning for a podcast.

[Craig]

You know Andrew, I'm looking here. I think you got the job.

[Andrew]

Well, let me, you know, I leave

[Craig]

it to our listeners, I suppose but here at the podcasting company, we are ready to hire you. Thanks for telling me about this book, Andrew. I am. This is like on the short list of if I didn't have a weekly book podcast and my friend Andrew told me about a book that you would go try to read it. Yeah, this is like towards the top of that list.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Craig]

Sound pretty cool. Neat. Thanks everybody else for listening. You can find more. Well, Andrew, tell you where you can find more episode the show but you can send us an email about your destabilized realities. Overdue pod Gmail.com hit us up on social media at Overdue Pod. Our theme song is composed by Nick Lus. Andrew, if folks do want in fact to learn more about the show with us on et cetera. Where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com is the Internet website where we have the schedule for the month and all the old episodes and all kinds of other information about the show. Patreon.com overduepod is a link we've mentioned a couple of times. That is our Patreon page. You can go there and support the show directly financially, kick us a little bit of money and pay for books and equipment and hosting and all the other things that we need to make the show go round. You literally make the show possible. And in exchange, you get access to our Discord community. To what bonus episodes, to the newsletter, to an ad free version of the feed. We are wrapping up our long read of Akira right now. We're gonna do the volume six, the last volume, this month and then next month do a sort of a capper about the movie from the late 80s that I'm looking forward to watching.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Because apparently it's going to be pretty different.

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm told it's different.

[Andrew]

So. Yeah. Patreon.com overdupod Craig, what is happening next week?

[Craig]

Next week I'm reading Private Rights by Julia Armfield. I'm pretty good way through it right now, and it is an interesting, like, near. Not quite an apocalypse, but like, kind of like near catastrophic event world, where a lot of what the reality is is pretty similar to our own, with, like, some key differences.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Craig]

That makes. That makes it sound weirder than it is. It's an interesting world in which it's raining all the time and also it's like a King Lear, my dad just died book. So.

[Andrew]

Okay. Rad.

[Craig]

Excited to talk about that one.

[Andrew]

All right. Okay, everybody, thank you for listening to our show. I hope, I hope I passed the audition. And until we talk to you next week, please try to be happy. Foreign. That was a headgum podcast. Hello, I'm Johnny Knoxville. And I'm Jeff Tremaine. Welcome to Jackass the Podcast, a new show coming to. Coming to. That's what it is. Hello, I'm Johnny Knoxville.

[Craig]

And I'm Jeff Tremaine.

[Andrew]

Welcome to Jackass the Podcast, a new show coming to Headgun soon. I've learned a Jackass movie has to be really 90 minutes.

[Craig]

Every minute over is a minute.

[Andrew]

Apparently, there's only so much butthole you can take. We're gonna take you behind the scenes of our entire history. All the best bits, bad behavior, and even worse decisions. All of it. Sometimes we don't make the right decisions, Jeff.

[Craig]

I've noticed that every.

[Andrew]

Every so often with guests like Spike Jones. I think let's commit to Jackass the podcast.

[Craig]

What was it gonna be called?

[Andrew]

The Jackass Podcast. Jackass podcast without you, the IQ drops significantly. Steve O. There's a strong chance that were it not for Jackass, that I would be in clown makeup right this fucking minute. Chris Pontius, that shot of your butt just cruising up, I'm like, yeah, I got that on tv. God bless us. Dave England.

[Craig]

Yeah, when you come in and you're being really nice, I'm like, damn it,

[Andrew]

something bad's gonna happen to me. Wee Man Jeff grabbed me from the back of the head and threw a punch.

[Craig]

The whole bar just stopped and wanted

[Andrew]

to kill me, like, and some of the crew that's been with us from the beginning. I had to share a room with this guy, and I left a nice surprise in the toilet for him every time. Apparently, he hates to flush. Subscribe to Jackass, the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Pocket Cast, or wherever the hell you get podcasts. Our new episodes drop on June 18th. Look out for new episodes in your feed every Thursday. Watch video episodes on YouTube, and follow along with us on Instagram and TikTok @JackassThePodcast. What were we just talking about? Probably buttholes.