Ep 758 - Forrest Gump, by Winston Groom

Summary

Overdue Podcast Ep 758 - Forrest Gump, by Winston Groom (July 6, 2026)

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Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, Andrew and Craig delve into Winston Groom’s 1986 novel, Forrest Gump, comparing it with the iconic 1994 film adaptation and unpacking the book’s surreal, episodic adventures and tone. The conversation covers the origins of the book, its author, the publication and movie adaptation history, and a detailed look at how the book’s structure, humor, and characterization diverge dramatically from the well-loved movie.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Forrest Gump: Book vs. Movie

• Initial Impressions:

  • Craig describes Forrest Gump as his "former favorite film," but, upon re-examining both the movie and the book, he views the nostalgia of the film more critically in light of the generational and political context it reflects (04:13–06:00).
  • Both hosts acknowledge that neither of them realized the film was based on a book until much later in life (08:46).

• Major Differences:

  • The novel is far wilder and more “gonzo” than the movie—described as “a Pickeresque mess” by Craig (34:09).
  • The movie’s most iconic lines ("Life is like a box of chocolates," “Stupid is as stupid does,” and “Run, Forrest, run!”) do NOT appear in the novel (30:45–31:26).
  • Book Forrest has a "potty mouth," uses more adult humor, and engages in escapades not present in the film (33:05).
  • The book’s tone is more satirical and, at times, meaner toward both Gump and the society around him (70:59).

2. Winston Groom: Author Background and Adaptation

• Biography & Career:

  • Born 1943 in Mobile, Alabama; Vietnam vet; authored novels, biographies, histories (09:39–12:05).
  • Forrest Gump was published in 1986 with modest sales (<10,000 copies); post-film, it exploded in popularity (18:23).
  • Groom’s relationship with the movie is “contentious”—he ultimately receives $7 million for sequel rights, though no sequel film is made (12:30).

• Film Adaptation:

  • Paramount paid Groom for rights, but through “Hollywood accounting,” claimed the wildly profitable film made no profit, leading to legal disputes (12:29).
  • Zemeckis's visually ambitious film made the story iconic; the visual effects (placing Tom Hanks in archival footage) drew both praise and skepticism from critics (24:01–25:02).
  • Potential alternate leads for Gump included John Travolta, Bill Murray, Chevy Chase, Matthew Broderick, and Sean Penn (15:09).

3. Plot Breakdown & Absurd Adventures

Craig provides a detailed, humorous summary of the book’s over-the-top events:

• Forrest's Escapades Include:
  • All-state football, physics savant, harmonica prodigy, chess tournaments, pro wrestling as "the Dunce," starring with Raquel Welch as the Creature from the Black Lagoon, saving Mao Zedong from drowning, going to space with an orangutan (named Sue), crashing to New Guinea and being captured by cannibals for four years, running for U.S. Senate on a campaign slogan of “I gotta pee,” and more (34:02–38:59, 59:58–61:58).
• “This book is a mess in a way that I think Groom wants it to be a mess. It is a series of adventures that Forrest Gump goes on... literally, the book, like, shoots itself into space.” — Craig (37:20).
• Craig quizzes Andrew on which wild events are genuine—most prove true to the book (34:09–36:36).

4. Characterization & Tone Shift

• Forrest:

  • Book Forrest is rougher, more bawdy, and less innocent than the film version. He knows he’s “an idiot,” repeats the phrase “I gotta pee” throughout, and is used as a pawn by others repeatedly (47:36–49:19, 50:10–50:54).
  • Lacks the emotional wisdom and gentle demeanor associated with Tom Hanks’s portrayal.

• Lieutenant Dan & Jenny:

  • Both are less tragic in the book. Dan is more a philosopher than a broken man; he repeatedly reappears randomly throughout Gump’s life (56:12).
  • Jenny is not given the film’s backstory of trauma/addiction and is more of a drifting presence; they never truly reconnect (59:09–59:33).

5. Gonzo, Satirical, and Lowbrow Humor

• The book’s brand of absurd, sometimes crude humor (notably, Forrest wins a chess match by farting so loudly it throws off his Russian opponent: 66:11–68:17) is a running point of discussion and amusement/disbelief for both hosts.
• The entire sequence where Gump, an astronaut, an orangutan, and a woman crash into New Guinea and are held by cannibals is a podcast highlight: “...he learns to play chess thanks to the Yale educated chief of the tribe, who says things like old sport all the time because it’s funny.” (63:39–64:46).

6. Satire & Social Commentary

• The satire in the book is described as “defanged Candide” (19:38)—a gentle but muddled lampooning of American history and institutions.
• Groom questions through Gump the “idiocy of life in our time” with a tone noticeably dimmer than the optimism and sentimentalism of the film (71:00).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Being an idiot is no box of chocolates. People laugh, lose patience, treat you shabby. Now they says folks, supposed to be kind to the afflicted, but let me tell you, it ain’t always that way...” (Book’s opening paragraph; 30:21)
• "This book is a mess in a way that I think Groom wants it to be a mess." — Craig (37:20)
• “I gotta pee.” (catchphrase—repeated throughout the book as Gump’s signature, including at campaign rallies; 47:36–50:54)
• “Humongous baked bean fart that sounded like somebody is ripping a bed sheet in half.” (Gump’s secret chess move; 66:30–68:17)
• “The characters, the story, and the progress of Forrest Gump are so haphazard and weird that it is kind of like trying to make sense of a car wreck.” — Matthew’s Goodreads review, read by Andrew (38:04–38:32)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Discussion | Timestamp | |---------|------------|-----------| | Opening - distinguishing book/film | Main differences and the nostalgia issue | 04:13–08:30 | | Author bio & adaptation | Winston Groom’s life and his complicated deal with Hollywood | 09:39–13:39 | | Book reception & sales | Book’s lack of presence pre-film, explosion after | 18:22–19:19 | | The surreal, episodic nature | The Pickeresque quiz; wild events of the book | 34:02–38:59 | | Tone & character arcs | Forrest, Jenny, and Dan’s book differences | 45:12–59:33 | | The space/cannibals/orangutan arc | Book’s most absurdist narrative detour | 61:16–63:39 | | Satire, conclusion, and personal reflections | Takeaways and the book’s mean streak | 70:59–74:15 |

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Overall Takeaways

• Reading Forrest Gump after seeing the film is a confusing, jarring experience. The book’s wild, episodic plot and rough humor are a far cry from the film’s sentimental, tightly-structured approach.
• The novel lacks many of the pop culture touchstones and Gumpisms that made the movie a phenomenon.
• While the movie makes use of nostalgia and optimistically reframes American history, the book is a coarser satire in which “everybody’s an idiot,” and systems/politicians often try (and fail) to exploit Forrest.
• The hosts found the book’s structure chaotic, frequently hilarious in its outlandishness, sometimes off-putting, and ultimately instructive for understanding how drastically adaptation can reshape source material.

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Final Thoughts

• “You can see why someone was like, we gotta balance that a bit to make this a more successful, like, mainstream story...” — Craig (71:52)
• “[The book] did not feel like the America book I guess I expected either, but I feel like maybe it did... Senator running the PE campaign like that feels fair. Happy, Happy. All art is political.” — Andrew (74:15–74:27)
• “The monkey stuff is so dumb. It’s just really stupid. That’s Forrest Gump.” — Craig (74:10)

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For listeners who haven't read the book: expect a wild, crude, and much less sentimental adventure than the film—a satirical, scattershot tour through American institutions, history, and pop culture, as seen through the eyes of literature’s strangest “idiot hero.”

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Transcript

[A]

This is a Headgun podcast.

[B]

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[A]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.

[B]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale.

[A]

They will not shy away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[B]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[A]

My name is Andrew. Oh, can't sit here on the podcast bus. Move along to the back of the podcast bus.

[B]

Isn't she always okay? Well, she doesn't. She says you can sit here if you want. She is in the back, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. It's been a while since I've watched this, my former favorite film, Forrest Gump. And welcome to our book podcast where each week one of us reads a book and tells the other person about it. Andrew, what book did I read for this week's show?

[A]

For this week's podcast? For this week's podcast, you read Forrest Gump by Winston Groom, a man I

[B]

didn't know existed until I decided to read the book Forrest Gump for my book podcast in the year 2020.

[A]

And then you found out that he had just always been there throughout all of history.

[B]

It is strange.

[A]

Right over. Just right there on the margins.

[B]

Right there on the margins of the film Forrest Gump in the background. Yeah. Somewhere in the last few months this book came up, the Birth.

[A]

Tell us all about your favorite movie Forrest Gump, though. Well, your former favorite movie.

[B]

My former favorite movie, I think. Okay. I can more easily address the former part is in the last six years.

[A]

Decade ish.

[B]

Decade ish. I've really awoken to careful. Just some, you know, get all of

[A]

our federal grant money

[B]

issues with kind of a generation or two older than us who have held on to, you know, certain types of political power, much

[A]

of it, and have just insisted for our entire lives that we revere and value the same they revered and valued. Yeah, sure.

[B]

Yeah. And I, I don't think what that when I was 10 or maybe 11 or 12, whenever I first saw Forrest Gump, I didn't see it. I wasn't a Super fan at 10. I didn't see it in theaters, I don't think. But I certainly did not understand or grasp the nostalgia like the, the potentially poisonous nostalgia of the film that I am aware of now. I think I probably knew that it was like it's, it's a, it's a work about history. It's looking back on things.

[A]

And I don't even know that at the time that, that I would describe the nostalgia as poisonous. No, I think that it's been it's been tainted retroactively by the further actions of the generation that it was aiming at.

[B]

I think some of it, too might be a little bit of mid-90s end of history brain where we can just kind of look back on all that silly stuff that happened in the 20th century.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't it funny how there used to be tumult and there isn't anymore?

[B]

Yeah. And, like, we can kind of fold the radical elements of our history in with the reactionary and just go, wasn't that so silly that it all happened at the same time and we were all there and this guy was there. He's so silly.

[A]

I was also there. Whoa.

[B]

And. And also it's a banging soundtrack with all your faves. Right. And we're not gonna like everybody.

[A]

The soundtrack.

[B]

There's the whole, like, fortunate son plays. And just like Born in the usa, Nobody really listens to the lyrics about it. It's one of those kind of things. Mm. And I was.

[A]

Elvis is there.

[B]

Elvis is there. I was a big Tom Hanks head. I like Tom Hanks movies.

[A]

Everybody's a Hanks head.

[B]

You know. I'm not unique in my love for America's dad.

[A]

Do you know that this was Tom Hanks's highest grossing role until the year 2006 when he played a guy you and I know named Robert Langdon in the film adaptation of the Da Vinci

[B]

co. That's not surprising. He had a. He had a meteoric rise in the 90s. I would have bet that maybe Saving Private Ryan had eclipsed Gump, but I guess not.

[A]

He also dropped out of the role. I allegedly dropped out of the role of Andy dufresne to play Mr. Gump.

[B]

Wow. Huh?

[A]

And I think we can agree that Tim Robbins was the right guy at the right time for that.

[B]

For Mr. Dufresne for that film. Yeah.

[A]

I just think that their careers have taken different.

[B]

Very different.

[A]

Different directions since then.

[B]

Yes. So, no. I love this movie. As a kid, I thought the characters were cool. I thought the stuff Gump said was fun and interesting. I was moved by the music and the feather flowing through the air. I guess I thought it was neat that he was meeting the President. And I knew that it was kind of silly that it looked. It was real footage, maybe. Yeah. I just had a soft spot for it. I. I've always. I still don't know that I can shake the, like, emotional attachment to the end of the film when he meets Jenny again and he realizes he has a son and he's concerned about his Son. And then he takes care of Jenny anyway. And he talks to Jenny at her grave. And he's very. It's very emotional. And I think some of that is probably my own dad stuff. Some of it is me just hitting me at the right time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't know. Haven't done a full straight top to finish watch in a long time and I don't like. It's been a. It's been a. Oh, it's on cable. Watch for me.

[A]

Okay. I was gonna ask if it was the kind of movie that you've caught like 30 sec, 30 minute windows of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There.

[B]

Well, and it's. It's often been like, oh, it's. Oh, it's on. I'll just watch the rest of it, you know, and I don't. I haven't seen the beginning of this movie, you know, in a while perhaps, but didn't really know it was a book when I was a kid. Had never read the book. Was not curious to read the book.

[A]

I remember my mom owning the book.

[B]

And it was a sensation when the

[A]

movie came out in it, in a way. Yes.

[B]

Relative to its original sales, that it

[A]

was the golden age of movie novelizations. And they didn't have to do a novelization of this one. They. They just had a book that existed.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

It's true. But yeah. Do you want to hear more about old Winston Groom?

[B]

I would love to learn more about Mr. Groom, who has a name that sounds like Forrest Gump. Winston Groom.

[A]

Winston Groom could be like Forrest Gump's roommate.

[B]

Yeah. His groommate.

[A]

Run, Winston, Run. Winston Groom, London walk to hear more about Winston Dash. Winston Dash. Like if during the Sonic the Hedgehog alike phase, they'd done like, Winston the Wallaby and Winston the Wallaby dashed around to go so fast. Yeah. Winston groom, born in 1943, died in 2020. An American author of novels, biographies, histories. He is raised in Alabama, where Forrest Gump is also born and raised. Mobile, Alabama.

[B]

Yeah. His father was a Pentagon lawyer and his mom taught English.

[A]

He attends the University of Alabama. He serves in the U.S. army during the Vietnam War. And that is sort of the focal point of a lot of the. The books that he does, including parts of Gump and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The first few things that he publishes. After he returns From Vietnam in 1967, he works briefly for a now defunct Washington, D.C. area paper. And then he decides to just move to New York and make a go of being a novelist. His first novel is published in 1978. It's about the Vietnam War. It's called Better Times Than these. There is a 1982 nonfiction book called Conversations with the Enemy that is a finalist for a nonfiction Pulitzer. Pulitzer in 1984.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was settled on a house pronunciation of that particular Pulitzer.

[B]

It's either Pulitzer or Pulitzer.

[A]

I go for Pulitzer. I go for Pulitzer.

[B]

Okay, great. I did read that. Better Times Than these. You know, it's semi autobiographical, and he gave some comment about it. I don't know if it was to Veterans of the Vietnam War association or what. That it was sort of a coming out for him, that he had even served. Like, he, you know, he goes home back to the south for a period of time after the war, and the, you know, everybody just hated the fact that people were in that war. Yeah. And he was pretty. Not public about it. He, you know, he told people. He's like, yeah, I was just. Whenever anybody asked him where he went, he's like, away. I was gone. I was away. And so for him to kind of come out with this big novel, it was like him working through some of that and then deciding to do it publicly.

[A]

In 1985, he moves back to Alabama and begins work on Forrest Gump, which is published in 1986. He is paid. So his literary career after this, like, the biggest thing, probably that he does is a sequel to Forrest Gump, which is published in 1995. But, like the entire rest of his career that I am prepared to talk about is kind of him in, like, relative to this movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Made out of his book and then became a big. A big thing. Not that he. And it's. He did not. Of the authors we've talked about. He does not. He certainly does not have, like, the most adversarial relationship with this movie adaptation that any author ever had. But it is contentious. For a while, at least. He has paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for the rights to the book, but then later gets in a legal fight with Paramount about profit sharing and royalties. Like, the short, short, short version of that is that Paramount's accounting practices rendered a film that at the time made $300 million on a $55 million budget technically unprofitable. So there was no profit to be shared. Sorry, Winston. Paramount fixes this in part by paying him $7 million for the rights to the sequel, a movie that was never made. Because Tom. I mean, Tom. Tom Hanks is said. Has said in interviews, like, I have never signed a contract to do a movie that has had, like, a sequel built into it. Like, I have never wanted to be trapped into doing a sequel for a movie that I. That I didn't want to.

[B]

Toy Story 5 in theaters now.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he. Presumably he wanted to do that. And honestly, it is not that much work for him to be in Toy Story 5 relative to the other Toy Story movies. This is based on my knowledge of having seen Toy Story 5. I'm not like doing. No, no, I know drive bys on Tom Hanks for like not working hard enough for somebody. But yeah, he. He went. Groom writes the first three drafts of the screenplay in sort of the late 80s. But this film's development kind of goes up and down. It was orig. Development at Warner Brothers, but then Rain man comes out in 1988 and then there. And then Warner Brothers is like, well, we don't want to do another movie about like a. A savant guy.

[B]

Yeah. So what's interesting there with. With. Did you find this stuff about 60 minutes? Did that come up in your.

[A]

I didn't find anything about 60 Minutes. I just, I. Eventually, after this happens, this guy Eric Roth writes a screenplay that gets picked up by Paramount Pictures. Like, Roth is still consulting Groom on the script to like double check historical accuracy, but Groom is not writing the screenplay himself anymore. And then I have that. People who were allegedly considered for and or turned down the opportunity to play Forrest Gump include John Travolta, Bill Murray, Chevy Chase, which would have been awful.

[B]

Would have been really bad.

[A]

It would have been a catastrophe.

[B]

Terrible.

[A]

Matthew Broderick and Sean Penn. And then. Yeah. That Tom Hanks dropped out of Shawshank to do Forrest Gump.

[B]

Well, I could see.

[A]

I could see any of those. John Travolta I don't think would have done a great job, but I could see any of them doing it except Chevy Chase, which would have been really rough. Just the one of the worst movies of all time. Chevy Chase in this role.

[B]

Room was quoted at one point as saying he pictured John Goodman. Yes.

[A]

Did say that.

[B]

Yes. Because the Gump depicted in the book is like six, six and like just a big hunk of guy. And so at one point they do refer to him as an Adonis. So hunk and a hunk of a guy.

[A]

And that's John Goodman.

[B]

And that's John Goodman for you. Not trying to throw strays at.

[A]

No, I like John. John Goodman is a towering presence.

[B]

But no, his.

[A]

Everything about him is great, but Adonis is not the. The word I would use.

[B]

The thing with Rain man that was interesting to me is of the. The two bits of Inspiration that Groom has ever, you know, shared about where this book came from. One was some kid his dad told him about, some, you know, kid his dad knew growing up who seemed to be some sort of savant. And then the. Or something like that, I don't know. And then the 60 Minutes piece in 1983, which is about a guy named George Finn who has what is considered like calendrical savant syndrome. Like basically he had very limited math skills, but could tell you the exact day of the week any day in history was like he just had whatever his brain was capable of. Could just do that math.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then had some other additional kind of impressive recall. And so there's this big 60 minute piece about it. There have been follow up pieces on Finn and other folks from 60 Minutes specifically over the years. And that guy is one of the main inspirations for Rain man, which is also one of the main, you know, he's also one of the main inspirations. Forrest Gump. And so the. The thing about this book, the primary thing, there's a lot different actually from the movie. But one of the key differences about Gump relative to the film is that he does display certain savantism, like savant qualities. Like, he does have like a knack for physics calculations and playing the harmonica.

[A]

I think movie Gump is just like a savant for the human condition. He's an emotional. It's sort of an emotional.

[B]

That and assembling guns. There's the whole bit where he's really good at taking apart and cleaning a gun in the movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But no, it is not. Like this is like, we'll go over what is in this book and what is not in this book. But at one point they referred to him as having like a computer brain, which is a real trope of this era.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In fiction in particular,

[A]

the you asked me to look for reviews of the book from when the book came out and there are not a ton of them. I don't think this book had a ton of footprint before the movie came out. This is a New York times article from July 1994 after the release of the movie.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And this is Sarah Lyell talking, quote, before it was an enormously successful movie whose sentimentality charmed audiences and irritated many critics. Forrest Gump was just a novel and not a very well known one. When the book, about a slow witted man whose lack of guile propels him into a series of outlandish adventures, was published in hardcover by Doubleday in 1986, it reportedly sold fewer than 10,000 copies. And then the book after the movie, as of this article, has 8, over 800,000 copies in print. A paperback publisher named Pocketbooks bought the rights to publish the book and several other groom things that had gone out of print and also published a companion book called Gump Isms.

[B]

Yeah, which is.

[A]

Which is like little. Little bits of wisdom from Forrest Gump

[B]

that seems way more influenced by the movie.

[A]

Like. Yeah, definitely.

[B]

That's some recursive Gump ism right there.

[A]

That's its own kind of. Gump is.

[B]

I did find, I think it was through an obit of grooms, not one that he had written. One was written about him of.

[A]

Yes, from.

[B]

That was in the New York Review of books from 1986, that I think this is Jonathan Baumbach. And there are one or two quotes I might come back to later, but he refers to it as a defanged candide, an unabrasive satire of the idiocy of life in our time as manifested in various touchstone events and institutions. Yeah, that's what the book is doing. It's a little. It's more outland. In some ways, the movie is very outlandish, but in some ways, the book, I felt it to be more. A little more gonzo of a tale from the Muppets.

[A]

Does Forrest Gump have a, like, romance chickenspect with it?

[B]

That's a big part of it. Yeah, just a little sillier.

[A]

There's a line from the movie review that the New York Times wrote that I can't wait to read you, but I'm not going to read it to you until. Until the moment is right. You'll know. You'll know when the moment is right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

As a way to invoke the film, the Pocketbooks cover features the now familiar photograph of Mr. Hanks sitting at a bus stop. Tom Hanks is Forrest Gump, the COVID reads, in large type, and then in tiny letters, a novel by Winston Groom. Nor is it a worry that the movie's plot often diverges from that of the book. In fact, said John Anderson, the senior buyer for mass market paperbacks at Barnes and Noble, this can actually attract readers. Quote, books that were books before the movie tend to work a lot better than novelizations. He said, people think they're going to learn something more than what they saw on the screen.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair.

[A]

So it sounds like you did learn more.

[B]

I did.

[A]

What you saw on the screen when he read the book Forrest Gump.

[B]

He did learn more about Mr. Gump. Or a man named Forrest Gump, then I certainly knew from the movie that is true.

[A]

Just a couple. Couple fun facts about Gump and company, the sequel published in 1995.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're just a couple of. This is done after the, after the movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're very couple of swipes at the movie.

[B]

In the book.

[A]

In the book, Forrest Gump on the first page apparently tells readers, don't let. Don't ever let nobody make a movie of your life's story. Whether they get it right or wrong, it don't matter.

[B]

This is Don Quixote. This is Don Quixote.

[A]

And then at one point, among the things that happens to Forrest Gump in Gump and Company, some of, some of the things that happen is that he invents New Coke and everybody hates it. He goes to Iran and they meet the Ayatollah. Forrest Gump gets thrown in jail.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

He meets John Hinckley Jr. Who is the attempted assassin of Ronald Reagan. He gets drunk with an old friend and wrecks the Exxon Valtese.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

He is in Germany and he punts a football over the Berlin Wall, which inspires people to start destroying it. Okay, the Berlin Wall. He's deployed in the Gulf War with Lieutenant Dan, and then he meets Bill and Hillary Clinton at Whitewater.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But the other thing that happens is that he, Forrest Gump and his son, while in Manhattan, meet a young actor who is shooting a movie called Big. And this actor says things like, life is like a box of chocolates, and they both think that the actor is an idiot and they don't like him very much.

[B]

What?

[A]

So Forrest Gump and Forrest Gump's son meet the man Tom Hanks in the book Gump and Company, in between inventing New Coke and wrecking the Exxon Valse.

[B]

I will say, unless I missed stuff, this book has a. Has the dial of Gump throughout history is a little turned down. I think that is something that got supersized in the movie and then is now fed back into the groom machine.

[A]

Because that's like Robert Zemecki like this thing. And this happens, this comes up in reviews of it where I was. I guess I was just not expecting this movie to be compared to who Framed Roger Rabbit. But there were some people who were like, oh, here's Robert Zemeckis again with this, this movie that's more visual effects than it is substance. Yeah, just like, just like Roger Rabbit.

[B]

Just like Roger Rabbit.

[A]

Just because of all the, all the work they had done. Like, blue screening and, like, rotoscoping Tom Hanks into this, like, archival footage of JFK or whatever.

[B]

Well, like. And doing kind of like, very rudimentary, deep fake, like, lip reading stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With, like, John Lennon when he. What they do.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And when they do the. That is a thing that has not aged well for me. Was the scene with John Lennon in the movie where he's just doing the lyrics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of Imagine.

[A]

People are weird about. This is. This is how I feel when we watch For All Mankind. And the little, like, newsreel thing at the beginning of every season is like. Yeah. John Lennon has been a bulletproof musical star for 60 years because I'm a. Like a white man of a certain age. And so I just. I have a thing about John Lennon that I need everybody to know about.

[B]

Well, they took. They took his potential genius away from us. And then there's all that Wings music I've had to listen to instead of. Is that. Is that what you're saying people feel like.

[A]

No, I'm just. No, I'm just saying that everybody is like, you know, if John Lennon hadn't died, he wouldn't have followed the path of every musical star ever and, like, done a bunch of inconsequential music and then developed a bunch of bad opinions.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

He would have been exactly the version of John Lennon who I valorized in absentia for four decades.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know this. I don't know if this diversion goes anywhere.

[B]

No, that's just like, a part of the movie that has not worked for me for a long time. And then it's always the. The jarring thing of. I guess the jarring thing of that visual effects stuff. Now that I think back on it and I'm proud. I promise we'll talk about the book. Don't worry.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That is one where it's actually played to pretty good effect, where Gump is in this, you know, manufactured reality doing the rotoscope stuff next to John Lennon, and then he goes out the stage door and Gary Sinise is in a wheelchair, like, why I hate you. Why did you go on tv, you monkey? And it's like, it's really jarring because even, like, the style of shot and film stock has changed and things like that, but it doesn't all work as well as that kind of abrupt shift emotionally. And it could be pretty distracting if that's not what you're into. This book is weird, though.

[A]

Well, let's take a break and then you can and then we can run, Craig, run to the next part of the podcast where you tell me about the book.

[B]

Sounds good.

[A]

Foreign. I know you like to keep your rights private, but I know there are other things that you want to make public and there's no way to take something public like making a great website with Squarespace. That's right. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Craig, you heard of these guys?

[B]

I have, but I'm not quite sure the best way to make myself public. Is that what I just. I want.

[A]

It's the best way. It's the best way to take. You take your ideas public to just kind of present your. The things you're thinking about to the public.

[B]

So you're talking about taking my ideas out on the information superhighway?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't know how to drive an Internet car. Can Squarespace help?

[A]

Squarespace is the. They give you the car and a driver and a road and destination and a starting point. Squarespace gives it all to you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're the website that helps you make websites. Here's some things that we like about Squarespace. Yeah, they have cutting edge design cred.

[B]

Ow. Ouch.

[A]

Finger ouch. Charlie. With Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. No matter where you start, your website is flexible to what you need. With intuitive drag and drop editing, beautiful styling options, unrivaled visual design effects, and more ways to list what you offer. No experience required. You can fundraise directly on your website and grow your impact with built in donation tools as well create a professional on brand website that makes it easy to accept one time or recurring contributions and engage supporters. And also Craig, Squarespace makes it easy to showcase your expertise with video content on your website, upload and organize your videos, create stunning video libraries and even monetize your content by adding a paywall. Perfect for online courses, exclusive tutorials and premium workshops. If any of this sounds good, if you want to take all this stuff public, you can go to squarespace.com overdue for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Squarespace.com overdue for a free trial and offer code overdue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain.

[B]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mints offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[A]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50gb. Me slow when network is busy see terms.

[B]

Let me say this, Andrew. Being an idiot is no box of chocolates. People laugh, lose patience, treat you shabby. Now they says folks, supposed to be kind to the afflicted, but let me tell you, it ain't always that way. Even so, I got no complaints because I reckon I done live a pretty interesting life, so to speak.

[A]

Well, so thank you for telling me all that, Craig, but I thought we were here to talk about the book Forrest Gump.

[B]

That is the opening paragraph of the book Forrest Gump by Winston Groom. That is the only time that I believe a box of chocolates is mentioned. Other phrases that book Gump does not say include stupid is a stupid does. Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks. One of my favorite lines from the film he does say a bunch of the stuff about the rain in Vietnam like coming up at you that seems to be pretty well lifted from the novel. But no, no, kind of wherever those gumpisms came from, they were not from this novel.

[A]

I have just Real quick, I have a three star Goodreads review from Chantal who said this is. I really like this review of the of the book. Okay, so I was really surprised that the book was nothing like the movie. I love that for I love that Forrest Gump movie. Watch it about two times a year. I really had to get used to it being something totally different. And when I got used to it, I started liking the book. However, the space shuttle thing and later on the Cannibals, it was really over the top. The book never seemed to stop after that. All I can say is I'm glad I have read it, but that is that. And then Jessica says this is. This is the theme here is that the book is different from the movie. Jessica's review is my favorite of them all. The book is in no way a bad book, but I think seeing the movie first ruined the book for me. I started reading it thinking that it would be almost identical to the movie. After the first few pages, I realized that it wasn't going to be exactly like the movie, but I Still hoped. I kept waiting for Jenny to tell Forrest to run, but it never happened. A lot of my favorite parts from the movie were not in the book. And this for some reason made the book disappointing.

[B]

Wow. For some reason it was disappointing. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for these folks who were interested to like, you know, hang out with the mo. They're one of their favorite movies in a different way like that.

[A]

Like that book buying guide.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, people think they're going to learn something more than what they saw on the screen. But I think people also do want to see what they saw on the screen and just like have it be deeper and wider.

[B]

I can see why.

[A]

But instead you're just waiting for Jenny to tell Forrest to run, but it never happens.

[B]

Craig, I can see why they did not make exactly what's here in the book. This book. Forrest has a potty mouth, first of all, throughout the whole book.

[A]

Potty mouth. Some people complain about that on the Goodreads too.

[B]

He has a little bit more sex than he does in the movie. So that's something you're maybe sensitive about.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

He smokes marijuana in the book Forest Bump.

[A]

Am I right? Because he's bumping so much.

[B]

Yeah, he smokes MJ at one point he. Yeah, he just to the point about the book does not stop. Andrew, I have a couple of questions here for you. I prepared a little quiz at your. Your good idea that you had that

[A]

every once in a while it happens.

[B]

Maybe I should just like ask you whether or not you think these things happen in the book Forrest Gump.

[A]

Okay. Am I going each individual thing happened or not? Or is it?

[B]

This is a multiple choice. I have four questions.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this quiz is called this novel is a Pickeresque Mess. Let's do a little quiz of what does and does not happen in the novel. Which of these does not happen in the novel? Do you think he becomes an all state football player. He aces a physics class called intermediate light and he becomes class president.

[A]

Class president.

[B]

That is correct, based on our previous discussion. Yes, he has. He has savant math for physics, which he does very well. And yes, he becomes an allstate football player. More on his award speech later. Question.

[A]

I tried very hard not to spoil myself. Those couple of things I mentioned in that one review or the hard to avoid. Yeah, the only thing that I spoiled myself on. So.

[B]

Which does not happen in the book.

[A]

Which does not happen.

[B]

He gets recruited for pro wrestling after someone watches him arm wrestle. Once he gets recruited for a Chess tournament after someone plays chess with him in a park. He gets recruited to be a bodyguard after someone sees him tackle some guy messing with Jenny.

[A]

Ooh, the wrestling one.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Arm wrestler. Oh, man. He.

[B]

He does not become a bodyguard. He does become a pro wrestler named the Dunce. And he does enter a chess tournament after playing against a grandmaster or something outside of another chess tournament. More on that to come. Okay, which of these does not happen does he play? He. Does he not play harmonica with the band Cracked Eggs? Does he not join a basketball team called the Galoots? And does he not go to space with an orangutan named Sue?

[A]

I think he. So I think he does go to space.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think he doesn't do the Cracked Eggs one.

[B]

Incorrect. He does join the band the Cracked Eggs with Jenny and plays the harmonica, which he learned from his friend Bubba. He does not join a basketball team called the Galoots.

[A]

His sport, the Glutes, is a good name for a basketball team.

[B]

Yeah. Which of these does not happen? Andrew. He runs to represent Alabama in the U.S. senate. He saves Mao Zedong from drowning in the Yang Sea. Or stars as the creature of the Black Lagoon opposite Raquel Welch.

[A]

I think it's number three. I think it's number three.

[B]

You sure you want a final answer?

[A]

Raquel Welch is name dropped in this book.

[B]

Trick question. These all happen in the novel Forrest Gump, not in that order, but he

[A]

does all of those things, this Forrest Gump, unfortunately. Like, there's stiff competition to be the stupidest senator from the state of Alabama, and I don't know that Forrest Gump would. I don't know that Forrest Gump would make it.

[B]

Yeah. So that's just the current.

[A]

Tommy Tuberville, current senator from Alabama, when asked to name a shape with three sides, said a trigon.

[B]

Yeah, well. Whoops.

[A]

Whoops. Oops.

[B]

Whoopsie. So this book is a mess in a way that I think Groom wants it to be a mess. It is a. A series of adventures that Forrest Gump goes on. The majority of the silly ones happen after Vietnam.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And so I think a lot of the folks who read this novel thinking it's going to be like the movie, and they're like, oh, I guess it didn't really happen that way. Oh, I guess he. He didn't go right into college or whatever, but then he did still play football, and then he still goes to Vietnam, and he still, you know, all that happens, and then gets back from

[A]

Vietnam, and then literally, the book, like, shoots itself into space.

[B]

It's just like, what is happening.

[A]

So Matthew says often the mantra is read the book first or the book is better than the movie. But with this one, I went in feeling the movie had way too much control of my impression. So I spent most of the time trying to ask myself, what would I think this book if the movie didn't exist at all? So here's the movie 3 the movie free opinion paragraph. The characters, the story, and the progress of Forrest Gump are so haphazard and weird that it is kind of like trying to make sense of a car wreck. That's my last three star Goodreads review.

[B]

That's a real. That's a good one.

[A]

But I just would like. Yeah, I'd like to hear because you were my. I realized as you were struggling with this book that we had assigned ourselves Dungeon Crawler Carl, this and Seven Habits of Highly Effective People right in a row. I feel, I worry that we've done irreparable psychic damage to ourselves. So, like, what was, what was reading this book? Like? Tell the people what you've told me.

[B]

What was reading this book? Like, it was rough at times because some of it is not. It's not an offensive book. I was kind of really worried that that was going to be the case. Whatever, like, kind of Southern patois that he's created for Gump is really something.

[A]

I think being born and raised in Alabama and then moving back there, you just kind of have to like, take some of that at face value.

[B]

Like, and some of it is also, like, you know, he's also dipping in and out of Gump to Gump's gross proclamation being have an IQ below 70. So like he's trying to approximate Gump's varied intelligences. Right. Somebody who is capable of name dropping famous idiots from literature, but, like, doesn't quite know all the stories, you know, that sort of thing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Somebody who's smart enough to know what he doesn't know, but maybe not beyond that kind of guy. There is the dumb guy says smart stuff element to this book. And I. That is the thing he seems most interested in, which is, oh, I have this classic idiot character that I'm playing with and I think this country is full of idiots.

[A]

Yeah, he, I mean, he might not be book smart, but he understands an essential truth that we've, that we've gotten away from in some way.

[B]

It honestly, that's more like the movie. This is just like, he's an idiot. He knows he's an idiot. He's always trying to do Right. By people. And people keep trying to use him, and they just look like idiots for using him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But you get stuff like, some of it is the. The nom stuff, which at times is sillier than I expected, but is mostly trying to hit the like, hey, I served in Nam and it was a mess kind of stuff. That's the more serious thread in the book. And you get quotes like bullets and stuff be flying all over it is something I simply cannot understand. Why in hell is we doing all this anyway? Playing football is one thing, but this. I do not know why. And there's another. He has a. He has a catch. He's two catchphrases that we'll talk about in a little bit, and one of them is about the Vietnam War, and he's just incapable of saying anything other than, it was awful. Like, that's not what he says. We'll talk about what he says. But cuss it is. It is a cuss.

[A]

Nice. Okay.

[B]

I was just surprised that he had. He had catchphrases, and they were none of the ones that I knew. But, no, it's just, like, I was not prepared for how silly parts of it were going to be. And I'll just have to start telling you what happens in the book to, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Truly communicate how strange of a book it is.

[A]

Because I'm wondering. I'm wondering. Silly how? Because the movie is silly in kind

[B]

of a weak way.

[A]

Yeah. Like, the way that the movie is silly is always like, isn't it. Isn't it funny that this one sort of unlikely guy, like, taught Elvis how to wiggle his hips and then invented the smiley face and, like, did all this other stuff?

[B]

And, like, the. The thing I think about is the Elvis thing and the. Oh, he called in that he saw guys with flashlights at Watergate, like, across the way. There's not. There's. There's not really stuff like that in this book, because even the Mao Zedong thing is, like, that's made up. It's not like, all of the Mao swimming in the river stuff that I saw was reading about. Like, there's no, like. And then he almost drowned one day. And, like, isn't Gump the one who saved him? Sort of stuff. There's no, like, oh, we just zoomed the camera out and isn't it funny that Gump was there all along? Like, that is not really happening in this book. It's still. It's. It's stuff like, why is he taking breaks from a random chess tournament to be an actor because a guy said he had a good look to him, but he made him be the creature of the Black Lagoon. And then he takes Raquel Welch into the fake jungle and her dress comes off, and then they fall down the hill onto Sunset Boulevard, and then he's walking through Rodeo Drive with naked Raquel Welch, and she can't buy a dress because no one believes that she's Raquel Welch. That's all like, two chapters of the book.

[A]

Wouldn't they sell her a dress? I mean, you don't have to be Raquel Welch to buy a dress.

[B]

Well, she didn't have any money on her, and because she was naked and the guy was like, listen, everybody comes in here saying they're Raquel Welch. Get out of here.

[A]

Do they? I feel like that one is specific. I don't know that. Listen, I love Raquel Welch. Don't get me wrong. I just don't know that at any point she was the household name, I

[B]

guess in the 80s maybe, where everyone

[A]

would be like, man, everybody. Everybody's coming in here saying that Raquel

[B]

Welch, she has a pretty good name. There's that. The book opens with him telling us he's not very smart. He tells us about his childhood, how he is named after a Ku Klux Klan grand wizard. But he knows that the Klan is no good, because one day he went down the street and a guy who owns a store who's definitely in the clan, like, waved a noose at him. And then he's like, well, those are bad guys, I guess. Thanks, Forrest. His mom does run a boarding house similar to the movie, but there are no famous residents. I don't recall any scenes from the book where she, like, sleeps with people to help Forrest or anything. And she is generally not as present in the book as in the movie. I think, you know, that's a. That's a Zemeckis and Roth kind of like, listen, we can build out this relationship. Forest cares about his mom, but he doesn't routinely reconnect with her the way movie Forest does.

[A]

Well, movie Force is also like, listen, we got Sally Field.

[B]

We got Field. We can. We got stuff to work.

[A]

We're not going to leave her on the bench.

[B]

He does make friends with Jenny very briefly in first grade, but then he gets pulled out of public school and put into a school for kids with disabilities, and it's as rough as you might expect for, you know, tip, like, whatever Groom thinks is typical 1960s Southern education. On that front, he does get recruited to play high school Football. Because he's just so big.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he. They want him to be a defend, a defenseman, a defensive lineman.

[A]

No defenseman is correct, I think.

[B]

And he just can't tackle guys. He's too much of a nice guy. At one point, he does name check that Lenny from Of Mice and Men is his favorite of the, like, you know, idiots from literature. So that's something. But he can run really fast. And the coach sees that he can run really fast. And so they build plays around him running really fast. He can't go to college because he doesn't pass the test. He doesn't go into the army right away because somebody tries to give him a rectal exam and he knocks him over the head and runs away. So he gets deferred.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

See what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A border from. From his mom's house. A woman sleeps with him and he's like, this is interesting. He goes on a date with Jenny and it's like they. It's like an action movie that's really stressing her out. So she's sinking out of her chair and he tries to pull her up into her chair and it rips her dress. And then she's kind of yelling about it. And then the cops come and then he doesn't see her for a few years. Like, stuff like that. What are we doing, Groom? What's happening here?

[A]

What are we doing? That's a good question.

[B]

When he's in front of the judge for this offense and he is ultimately spared because he is going to get to go play college football and rather than send him away to some remediary school, he's going to go play college football, I guess. The judge asks him if he has anything to say for himself. Andrew. And he unleashes his. Oh, no. Actually, yeah. This is the first time he says it. He tells the judge, I got pee.

[A]

Oh, that's like in the movie.

[B]

But he says it throughout the book over and over.

[A]

But that's like the. That's like the movie.

[B]

Does he say, I got a pee?

[A]

Yeah. Doesn't he say that to jfk? And JFK is like, I think. I think that young man's gotta be. Or whatever. I don't have. I don't have it.

[B]

But like, yeah, he does. That is what he does. You're right. But I did not expect this to be like his calling card of the book. So he gets. He's nominated for all state football team. He's supposed to give a speech. He says, I got a pee. He goes in front of the judge. He says, I got pee. He goes to college, and he's doing poorly in his English class because he's writing silly stories. And the guy's like, you should do creative writing. Got anything to say for yourself? And he goes, I got Pete. He's in the army, and they're showing him around to people because of what. The heroism that he did. And they're like, what do you think? And he's like, I gotta pee. He is later in the novel, after crash landing from a mission that we'll talk about later, he's on an island with a bunch of cannibals, and they ask him what he's feeling right now, and he says, I gotta pee. And then when he runs for US Senator and they put him in a full of. In an auditorium in front of other people.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And after he gives whatever tiny prepared speech they gave him, and then they ask him if he has anything else to say, and he says, I gotta pee. And the whole crowd starts chanting, we gotta pee. We gotta pee. We gotta pee. I really think they turned it into a campaign slogan.

[A]

I think that's. I think that that is pretty true to the psyche of the American electorate. Like, I think. I think you gotta hand it to him on that one.

[B]

His. His campaign manager says we got a pee as a symbol of riddance, of the yoke of government aggression, oppression, of evacuation, of all that is wrong with this country. It signifies frustration and impending relief.

[A]

How often does I gotta Pee, like, end a chapter? Like, how often is. Is it the button on it is

[B]

often the last thing. Not a full chapter, maybe, but the last thing of those scenes.

[A]

Like, before we do a jump to some.

[B]

It's like, set up, set up. Setup. Setup of the scene builds to. Gump has to say something in front of other people, and he goes, I gotta pee. And then there's, like, whatever little reaction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Except for this one, where it turns into. It's the closest thing to the movie of, like, the 75 people following Gump around the country running is instead a crowd of people chanting, we got to

[A]

pee out a P. Wake. We got a peeing.

[B]

And they turn I got a pee into his campaign catch. This is towards the end of the book. He's become a millionaire from strip farming, and he's in a bunch of boardrooms, and they want him to run for Senate, and they make it a campaign. And then the New York Times, those northern reporters, start digging into why there's a Senate candidate whose slogan is, I got A pee. And they pull up his whole weird history, and it tanks his campaign. So he doesn't get to become a US Senator.

[A]

Classic New York Times. So liberal bias.

[B]

So he does the college football thing. Much of this is similar to the movie. He plays out with. He hangs out with Jenny for a little bit. She plays music. He meets. But he does meet Bubba, which I don't think was part of school in the movie.

[A]

Yeah. Didn't he meet Bubba in Vietnam, like,

[B]

on the way to Vietnam? This book, the original. This book. The book does it a little differently, where he meets Bubba in this, like, horrific dorm that they live in on the football team, but Bubba's too injured to play. He teaches Gump how to play the harmonica instead. And then Gump flunks out of college, and then the army is like, good, you flunked. We'll take you. Like, your deferral is revoked. Come on in.

[A]

Where is Lieutenant Dan?

[B]

All right, so he goes.

[A]

Where's Lieutenant Dan Craig?

[B]

He goes to Vietnam. And this is some. Like, this feels like where you get the movie, like, where somebody picks this up as a movie, because this is, like, you're about a generation not quite a generation removed from the actual experience. A lot of the public sentiment has kind of congealed in some key ways, and you have a lot of experiences to pull from. You could probably turn that into the core of a decent movie. And, yeah, it's like. It's a mix of parts of it at first. Don't even look like they're at war. They're just partying over there, and then the bombs start flying, and it's bad. He does say a very common slur for that war a lot.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Not gonna say here. That was fun to read.

[A]

You don't need to. You don't need to say it.

[B]

He and Bubba.

[A]

I read. I read MASH recently.

[B]

Yeah, I know what.

[A]

I know what that experience is like.

[B]

He and Bubba, like, talk about their shrimping stuff. Afterwards, Bubba does die the same way he does in the film. There's an attack. Gump has to try and, like, bring him out of the line of fire. He saves a bunch of other people trying to save Bubba. One of the last things that Bubba says to him is just like, why is this happening? I want to go home. In the hospital, he meets Lieutenant Dan. Lieutenant Dan is. He is wounded. He ultimately goes on to. To lose his legs after several surgeries. He's more of an itinerant philosopher character who develops a chip on his shoulder but does not start with this, like, simmering rage, like, I was supposed to be a war hero.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

They. They should have let me die kind of thing. Instead, he, like, imparts to Gump this notion that, like, everything's part of some larger plan. Dan says it is all part of a scheme of some sort, and the best way we can get along is figure out how we fits into the scheme and then try to stick to our place. Somehow knowing this, things get a good bit clearer for me. Okay, so that kind of explain Gumps to, like, philosophies. I guess early on, his life is just run away. Like, he does know about running away. That is a thing. But nobody says, run, Forest, run. And then here it is waiting for.

[A]

Waiting for Jenny to say it, and she never does.

[B]

I wish never. And then this thing is like, okay, the world is happening around me. I'll just try to do good where I am, which is like, that's fine, whatever. But, like, Dan then just, like, you know, gets whisked away from the hospital. When we see him again, it is not angrily outside of a soundstage. It is kind of more depressed. But this is a thing I struggle with, with the book. And this was also called out in that New York Review of Books thing I found that said, one can be amused by Forrest and like him, but one can't accept this comic strip figure as someone capable of real human pain. And that. That is true because some Looney Tunes stuff happens to Forest where he, like, blows up something in a mess hall, and he's covered.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Slime or whatever that is.

[A]

Like, what if I was reading Dagwood and then. Or what if I'm reading Blondie and then Dagwood? It's like eating a big sandwich. But then he, like, gets shipped off to Vietnam.

[B]

Yeah, well. And, like, Dan has this, like, bit where he's like, I don't. You know, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life. I think I'm just kind of waiting to die. But it is sandwiched between hijinks and. I just had trouble while reading, dropping into a mindset of, like, oh, this is heavy. Yes. Anything in this book except for the concentrated chapters of Vietnam where, like, active gunfire is happening stuff is bad that comes across pretty cleanly as, like, yeah, Groom was there. He lived it. It was terrible. The stuff where he's, like, trying to pull that into Silly Gump mode, even if it's through someone like Dan who, like, at that point, he. He is not as angry. He does kind of recant that whole, like, everything's part of a scheme philosophy, because he just doesn't think anything. He's a little more disillusioned, but he's not like a. He's just. He's not this acerbic, awful, like, tragic guy, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it.

[B]

Broadly. Except for Bubba. I don't feel that Jenny and Dan are as tragic in the book as they become in their depiction in the movie. Like, yeah, sure, and I'll hop over to Jenny in just a second. But, like, Dan will, like, he'll just show up every few years in the book on the side of the street under a garbage bag, literally. And it's like, gump, good to see you. And then they rekindle their friendship and life moves on.

[A]

That makes him sound more like a goofy character.

[B]

I. I don't.

[A]

And in the movie. In. In the movie, I feel like he's got. He's got an energy to him that.

[B]

That does, like, very magnetic.

[A]

Yeah, it does, like, leaven the. The tragedy of. Of him as a character, but it's definitely not like, oh, Lieutenant Dan's here. Let's get back up to our hijinks.

[B]

And it's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's hard. There is a big hijink that happens during the wrestling sequence where he. Again, Forrest, is playing a character called the Dunce, and he's scheduled to lose a match, and Dan is like, what if we bet against you? Let's bet on professional wrestling, and then you will win the match, and then we will be rich, and then you'll leave the league anyway. And that poly market.

[A]

Forrest Gump was there when they invented poly.

[B]

I know. So. And, like, Dan comes back at the end, and it's. It's very sweet. So, yeah, it's. You can see how they get to what happens in the movie, but that is not quite what Dan is doing here. Similarly with Jenny. Gump loves Jenny, Loved her all his life. You don't have the longer sequence when they're young to really build that relationship. It's just clear that they just carry. Care about each other a lot. He is not stepping into her life as often. They do exchange letters. When he's in Vietnam, she's a little bit more overtly. You see it in the movie that she's, like, around people who oppose Vietnam and the war and stuff. But, like, you get from her in writing, like, we are organizing demonstrations against the fascist pigs. Like, I am going for it. But when she. When he comes back from the war, he goes and meets her in Harvard. And she's in the band Cracked Eggs, and he hangs out with the band Cracked Eggs for a while.

[A]

The band Cracked eg. Eggs, huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there a band that. That's supposed to be, like, analogous to. Or are we just.

[B]

I don't think. I don't know.

[A]

Are they, like a type of. Like a type. What type of band are kind of.

[B]

I. You know, a. A rock folk band.

[A]

Like a sort of a jam band, sort of touring. Sort of. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. They're. They're gonna. They. They almost cut a record, I think, is what happens. They do sleep together. Jenny and Gump do a few times. One point he says, we tried it so many ways. The only way we didn't try it was apart.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So struck me funny. She will ultimately come back into his life, and they're together for a while, her, Gump and Dan. But then she cannot countenance him mocking himself in professional wrestling anymore, and so she leaves him, and they do not see each other again until the end of the book, when she has remarried and has his son Forrest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She does not have the same, like, struggles with addiction. There's no backstory of abuse for her. She is just kind of flitting in and out of his life. And a reason for him to. Like, he's got. When he gets trapped for four years with the Cannibals, and he's like, I need a reason to keep going. He.

[A]

Cannibals, huh?

[B]

Okay. That. So I've done Jenny, I've done Lieutenant Dan, I've done Bubba. Great. Those are. I needed to make sure I touched on them, the big middle part of this book. So he. Yes, I said he saved Mao Zedong from the river. There's a whole section where he audits a class called the role of the idiot in World Literature, and he acts out scenes from King Learn with the fool in them, and then they accidentally light it on fire because they use real torches in a theater class. Not Gump's fault. He did not make that call.

[A]

Yeah. That's funny

[B]

stuff. It's, like, really meta. For no reason. It doesn't work. They. Jenny takes him down to D.C. to do a take off your metals protest. He takes off his Medal of Honor and throws it, and it hits a clerk of the U.S. senate in the head, and they take him away. They administer some tests and decide that he has a computer brain. And so they were either send him to jail or to NASA, his choice. And he gets put on a spaceship with a woman and an Orangutan. And so there are some fun headlines of like idiot woman and ape going to space. Pretty cool.

[A]

New York Times Movie Review, 1994. When a. This is the first paragraph of the review. When a television news report overheard in Forrest Gump mentions American astronauts, the audience can be forgiven for wondering whether the title character will soon be seen walking on the moon. The charmed life of Forrest Gump has led him practically everywhere else. From the White House, where Presidents Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon appear to be greeting him amiably, to an Alabama boarding house where he gives pelvis shaking lessons. To a guest to. Wait, this might be ocr. Oh, to a guest. The as yet unknown Elvis Presley. Sure, you could be forgiven for wondering whether the title character would be in space, because in the book, he does. He does go to space.

[B]

So they go to space. It's him, this woman, Major Janet Fritsch, who is going to be the first woman astronaut. But this mission is very secret for some reason. And an orangutan named Sue. But when they get put in the module, they put a male orangutan instead of the scheduled female orangutan. Okay, a problem, because I guess the male orangutan gets horny. He does. He. But they still call the orangutan sue because that would confuse everyone back on Earth if they didn't just keep the orangutan with the same name.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Disarangutan is in the rest of the book, Andrew, in various scenes. But most importantly the scene in space where it has to use. It has to pee. I gotta pee. And Gump gives it a water bottle to pee in in space. And he throws it at in the control panels.

[A]

This actually sounds like it rules, though.

[B]

And then they crash out of space.

[A]

They.

[B]

I mean, also the orangutan, like, gropes Major Fritz, which is also inappropriate.

[A]

No, that's not cool. Don't do that.

[B]

But he does. And he gets what's like flying all over the module.

[A]

And I just did. I wasn't expecting to learn that. The character of Monkeybone first appeared in the book Forrest Gump.

[B]

They crash land in New guinea, where they are held captive by cannibals for four years.

[A]

Where.

[B]

Where Gump becomes like a chess Scheherazade. Where he learns to play chess thanks to the Yale educated chief of the tribe.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Who says things like old sport all the time because it's funny.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Because he's from Yale, he, Gump, has to play chess every day. And the only one of the main reasons he hasn't been eaten is because the guy wants to beat Gump at chess first. Yes. So he has to be Cheshaharazad. And then they escape, thanks to the a band of pygmies who help them. He meets Richard Nixon. The Richard Nixon scene is so dumb because Gump says, like, he's asking Gump what happened in space. And Gump says something like, oh, they. They take something from you. And Nixon goes, tape. Who said anything about a tape? And then just starts yelling about the Watergate tapes, I guess. And he argues with his vice president and calls everybody Communists.

[A]

Spiro Agnew.

[B]

Yeah, I guess you're right. They don't name him, but, yeah, that.

[A]

That was his vice president.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just like, I like that he meets Futurama Nixon and not like, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then he becomes a wrestler, and then he does chess. Oh, chess. Here's how he almost wins the chess tournament, Andrew.

[A]

Okay, tell me more.

[B]

He. So, remember before we recorded I told you that he had two catchphrases and one signature move?

[A]

Yeah. This will catch phrases. Or I got a pee in the cussing one.

[B]

And the signature move is the cussing one. I'll just tell you what the cussing one is. Is he says anytime somebody directly asks him about the Vietnam War, whether it is a colonel, Chairman Mao, or Bubba's dad, he will say, I think it's a bunch of.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Verbatim. Every time. And sometimes it's the first two, it's kind of played for laughs. And then the last one, it's like a real. This moment worked for me. Like a real moment with Bubba's dad, who was like, what happened over there? What were you doing? Tell me honestly. And he's like, I think it was a bunch of. And guys like, all right, cool. I will. I will back you carrying on Bubba's shrimp farm and dream.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But the other thing, the other move he has, This is not the first time he does it, but this is the most memorable time he does it. He is sitting in the big chess tournament playing against Honest Ivan, a Russian chess player. I think it might be the championship round. I don't recall.

[A]

Is he called Honest Ivan because he's so honest, or ironically?

[B]

I think it's because he is honest. I think so. Cool. And Ivan does have Gump, like, in check. And there is a move that he can make, Ivan, that will lead to checkmate. And there's a move that he will make that will lead to Gump winning. And he's trying to decide between the two, and it clearly can't decide. And while Gump is watching this happen. Let me. I should pull up. I should have had the quote to hand. Here, let me just. Here it is. I don't know what happened. I guess I was so excited, but suddenly I cut a humongous baked bean fart that sounded like somebody is ripping a bed sheet in half. This is payoff for earlier in the book when he farted in front of Chairman Ma and Honest Ivan drops his chess piece, so he's so surprised at the smell, and it lands in the piece that's advantageous to Gump, who puts him in checkmate. And then there's a whole little inquiry about whether or not Gump did that on purpose to distract his opponent, which would be against the rules. Gump's grandmaster manager appeals, and they say, okay, you can play again. And then sue the orangutan bursts in, and they don't get to finish the tournament. Like a humongous baked bean fart. That sound like somebody is ripping a bed sheet in half.

[A]

That turn of phrase does give me pretty good. I don't know what it is.

[B]

It reminds me of when I read Gulliver's Travels, and I did. I learned for the first time ripping, ripping sinkers. No, not the farting part, though. There is kind of a. Like, I don't remember how much is there, like, stinky stuff in Don Quixote? Yeah, I feel there's some of that. And then there's also the whole part in, I think, the Lilliputian section of Gulliver's Travels where he is, like, peeing on a burning castle and stuff like.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that. Yes, yes.

[B]

Grand tradition of Pickeresque peepee poo poo stuff that is like, what are we doing?

[A]

What's your. Where do you want to leave us, Craig, what are your final thoughts on the book? Forrest Gump?

[B]

I will leave you with two things. One is the end of the book.

[A]

One is you'll leave me with the gigantic baked bean fart that sound like ripping a bed sheet in half.

[B]

So it's funnier to me when someone else says it out loud. The ending of the book does have some kind of fun wistfulness that is reminiscent of the film, though it is kind of strange that he is in Savannah, Georgia, playing the harmonica on the street, and Jenny comes up and sees him with her son, Little Forest. And while Jenny and Big Forest have a heart to heart, Little Forest is playing with a giant orangutan on the Side of the road, boy. But they don't get back together. They just have a nice kind of like, hey, this was our life. Isn't that interesting? And he goes to live down in New Orleans with Sue the orangutan and Lieutenant. Just hang out there.

[A]

What a party house.

[B]

A man offers to write a story about Forrest Gump, but then when Gump tells him his life story, he says, that's outrageous. No one will believe that, and I won't do it. And Gump just reflects on his life saying, yes, I. It's out. It's. No one has to believe it. I know. I lived a life where I tried to do the right thing, and that's enough. Like, okay, that's fine. Sure. Overall, though, in its silliness, I think the book is a little meaner than what people might expect coming from the film. Both mean to Gump and just generally a little. I don't think it's always working, but just kind of a dimmer view of the world around gumption.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, okay, yeah, more. More so than I recall anyway, from the movie is there are a lot more people trying to take advantage of Gump and, like, really work him to their own ends. And as I think I said at the top, it never really works out for them. They're all. Everything falls apart. Everything. You know, everything from pee in the space capsule to farting at the chess competition to, you know, they lose Vietnam. Like, you know, none of it works. The Senate campaign, where they, you know, try to go with the P campaign, and it doesn't work out, but they all look very silly, and there's a kind of, wink, wink, cheeky. Everybody's an idiot. And then there's the kind of darker, like, everybody's an idiot. Like, this is bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I doesn't have. You can see why someone was like, we gotta balance that a bit to make this a more successful, like, mainstream story where you have this, like, baseline of. Isn't it funny if somebody who doesn't operate the way that society expects kind of keeps bumping into big events or notable scenarios and things like that? That's a fine premise for a story, but you can see someone going like, I don't need this guy peeing and farting everywhere, and I don't need every politician he meets, like, trying to scheme what to do with him. I think the ping pong stuff, a lot of the exploitation of the ping pong stuff is, like, subtext in the movie and in the book, it's a little more clear that it is like propaganda, I guess that some of that is in the movie too. But it's. It's way more over than like on the nose, I guess book that it is like there's exploiting this poor guy, you know, up and down and it lacks the little boomer recall Easter eggs that can kind of carry you through the film as breadcrumbs. So. Sure, yeah, I don't know. I. I incurred psychic damage a few times. I don't love this style of humor. I struggle with this style of humor in books sometimes this kind of like the Nixon scene, the farting stuff.

[A]

I felt like we had established that the farting thing was really, really the farting.

[B]

I guess more the orangutan stuff makes

[A]

a big baked bean fart like with a bed sheet.

[B]

Well, when you. Every time we say it's like a thing that Tim Robinson would mutter, like that is the thing that's getting me, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Humongous big beam fart that sound like somebody's whooping a bit seat in half like, you know. But no, the, the God, the monkey stuff is so dumb. It's just really stupid. That's Forrest Gump.

[A]

Monkey stuff is stupid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Forrest Gump, you did it.

[B]

Happy America. It did not feel like the America book. I guess I expected either, but I

[A]

feel like maybe it did. Senator running the PE campaign like that feels fair. Happy, Happy.

[B]

All art is political.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

That's true. Well, thanks for letting me tell you about this book, Andrew, but I got to pee. So everyone at home, you can send us an email over to pod gmail.com hit us up on social media at Overdo. Overdue Pod. Our theme song is composed by Nick Lauren. Just Andrew. Folks want to know more about the show. Where do they go?

[A]

Overdue Podcast.com is the Internet website. Your one stop shop on the information superhighway for information about our podcast. Patreon.com overdue pod support the show financially, directly. And you buy our books like this one and like this one, Forrest Gump. And you pay for our hosting and you pay for equipment and all kinds of other stuff. In exchange for that, you get access to our Discord server, our monthly newsletter, our a lot of bonus episodes and other content streams where we hang out with folks every month and all kinds of other stuff. Patreon.com overdue pod as I have we talked about the July schedule.

[B]

No, I just pulled it up.

[A]

Pull it up.

[B]

All right. This week we read Forrest Gump by Winston Groom. Next week Andrew is going to tell us about the seven habits of highly effective people as written down by Stephen

[A]

R. Covey, I will endeavor to be a level five teacher.

[B]

I really need to know. I don't want you to shortchange me on these habits, Andrew. I need to know all seven of them.

[A]

I'll tell you about all the habits, Craig.

[B]

Don't worry. All right. I want to be highly effective.

[A]

I mean, the thing is, though, is that they are just like natural rules that govern the universe, and so you already know them, and they're, like, built into you. And it's just a book. Just kind of articulates them in language that everybody can understand that usually feels

[B]

the best when you read.

[A]

So, yeah, like, you already. You already know them. Yeah. I'll go back over them again for you.

[B]

Excellent. Then I'm gonna read the Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, Trying to round out my Morrison reading. And then we'll close out the month with on the Calculation of Volume, the first book in that series by Solvier Balle. I'll make sure I get that right by the time we talk about the book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, that's it. That's July ahead of us. Happy birthday, America.

[A]

Happy birthday, America. America. You. You're like a big bean fart. That sound like ripping a bed sheet sometimes. But we're still here, so everybody please. Thank you for listening to our podcast. And until we talk to you, next time, try to be happy. That was a Headgum podcast. Hi, I am Mandy Moore. Sterling K. Brown.

[B]

And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast that was us now on Headgum.

[A]

Each episode, we're gonna go into a

[B]

deep dive from our show. This is us.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

We're gonna go episode by episode. We're also gonna pepper in episodes with different guest stars and writers and casting directors. Are we gon. Yes, A little bit. Are we gonna laugh a lot? A whole lot. That's what I'm hoping, man. Listen to.

[A]

That was us on your favorite podcast app.

[B]

Or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify. New episodes every Tuesday.