Ep A01 - Dune, by Frank Herbert (Annotated)

Summary

Overdue Podcast Ep A01 – Dune by Frank Herbert (Annotated Edition)
April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special annotated edition of Overdue revisits Frank Herbert’s Dune, with hosts Andrew and Craig blending their 2026 selves’ research, context, and hindsight with their original 2013 discussion of the book. The episode explores Herbert’s biography, Dune’s development and literary legacy, pop culture impact, adaptations, and the enduring themes and challenges of reading this genre-defining sci-fi masterpiece.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Annotated Episodes and Reflections on Podcast History

(02:06–06:00)

• Andrew and Craig explain the concept of the annotated editions: revisiting earlier podcast episodes with the benefit of research and experience.
• They note that in 2013, they didn’t do as much author or historical research, instead relying on first impressions and organic discussion.
• "Just a little, tiny break for the first time in, like, 11 years. Just a little, tiny one." – Andrew (05:14)

2. Frank Herbert: Life, Politics & Inspirations

(06:00–13:50)

• Biography: Born 1920 in Washington, died 1986. Journalist, photographer, and prolific sci-fi author best known for Dune and its sequels.
• Political Views: Complex and hard to categorize (libertarian, environmentalist, some Republican leanings, anti-Vietnam War, pro-family, but anti-bureaucracy and skeptical of authority).
  • "I think he’s a libertarian environmentalist, dual class, is really what he’s doing." – Craig (07:26)
  • "He was related to Joseph McCarthy, which I don't know if that made hating McCarthyism easier or harder." – Andrew (08:23)
• Personal Life: Dropped out of college; supported by his wife Beverly (mother of Brian Herbert).
• Early Career: First published story in 1945; first sci-fi story in 1952 ("Looking for Something").
• On Dune's Origins: Inspired by Oregon sand dunes, philosophies (incl. Zen Buddhism), real-world ecology, and interest in feudalism and messianic leaders.

3. Writing and Publishing Dune

(09:42–13:50)

• Process: Started in 1959, took six years to finish.
• Obstacles: Nearly 20 publishers turned down the book; eventually published by a company specializing in car repair manuals.
• Success: Serialized in Analog Science Fiction; full book published in 1965, winning the first Nebula (shared) and Hugo awards.
• "When Dune is finally published... it wins the first ever Nebula Award." – Andrew (13:41)
• Legacy: Herbert’s five sequels; Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson’s later expansion based on uncovered notes.

4. Dune’s Cultural Impact and Adaptations

(16:20–29:41)

• Translation & Influence: Over 20 million copies sold, translated into 20+ languages; helped popularize planetary ecology concepts; influential in worldbuilding, likened to Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings.
• Direct Influence: Connection/inspiration for Star Wars’ Tatooine.
  • "Dune is to sci-fi what Lord of the Rings is to fantasy fiction." – Andrew (17:09)
• Film Adaptations:
  • Jodorowsky’s never-made film ("original Game of Thrones" in scope), legendary for its ambition and concept art (20:01–22:30).
  • David Lynch’s 1984 cult film starring Kyle McLachlan and Patrick Stewart, with significant studio meddling and multiple cuts (22:30–24:15).
  • TV miniseries (Sci Fi Channel, 2000), recent Denis Villeneuve films (2021, 2024), and their star-studded casts (25:04–26:08).
• Video Games: Dune II established the template for real-time strategy games (Starcraft, Warcraft, etc.) (28:27–29:41).

5. Themes, Worldbuilding, and Lasting Legacy

(30:08–33:02)

• Genre Context: Dune mixes environmentalism, human potential, altered states, and anti-imperialism.
  • "Dune is the paradigmatic fantasy of the Age of Aquarius..." (Guardian quote, 31:22)
• Cultural Sensitivity: References to Herbert’s efforts to engage with and honor Middle Eastern/Islamic culture and language; use of "jihad" vs. "crusade" as intentional and significant (32:29–33:02).

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Original Episode (2013) – In-Depth Book Discussion

6. Why Read Dune?

(34:51–36:34)

• Andrew describes feeling left out by online references ("spice," "the memes"), motivating him to finally read the book.
  • "Have you ever felt like you were on the outside of every joke that has ever been told on the Internet?" – Andrew (35:36)

7. Plot and World Overview

(39:08–51:05)

• Setting: Far future, mostly on the desert planet Arrakis ("Dune"), where water is scarcest and spice is the key resource.
• Factions: The noble Atreides; rival Harkonnens; mystical Bene Gesserit "witches"; indigenous Fremen.
• Premise: Atreides family is sent to rule Arrakis, are betrayed by the Harkonnens, and young Paul Atreides flees into the desert with his mother Jessica.
  • "You just open it up and immediately they're throwing around these terms: Bene Gesserit, Caladan, Arrakis... and like, names and names and names." – Andrew (51:58)
• Key Concepts: Stillsuits for water recovery, sandworms (both threat and ecological linchpin), spice as power, messianic prophecy around Paul ("Kwisatz Haderach," the "Greasy Hat Rack" joke).
• Resolution: Paul rises as a messianic leader of the Fremen, conquers the Harkonnens, and ascends as emperor.

8. Worldbuilding, Style, and Literary Devices

(51:36–59:20)

• Immersion: The book dumps readers immediately into its jargon-filled world; confusion is part of the reading experience, but rewarding once acclimated.
• Naming: Discussion of why sci-fi leans into unfamiliar names and the specific Arabic/Middle Eastern influences.
  • "I'm not sure what Frank Herbert's background is or if he has any particular interest in that kind of culture or anything." – Andrew (53:35)
• Ecology & Technology: Deep integration of survival technologies, water conservation; notable avoidance of AI/robotics by positing a past "Butlerian Jihad" outlawing them.
  • "He moves so far into the future, and also makes it so that society just does not have any of this artificial intelligence stuff..." – Andrew (61:11)

9. Literary Critique and Reader Experience

(66:13–76:46)

• Narrative Structure: Each chapter is prefaced by in-universe epigraphs that remove much dramatic tension by foreshadowing outcomes.
  • "It is very obvious from the outset that Paul lives through everything, that he wins, and that he is emperor." – Andrew (66:45)
• Style: The perspective shifts fluidly between characters, not sticking with a single viewpoint.
• Theme: Environmentalism, the dangers of charismatic messiahs, the will to power, and adaptation to hostile environments.
  • "The largest theme that Dune probably has is probably one of: environmentalism." – Andrew (64:19)
• Personal Reflections: Andrew notes he might have enjoyed Dune more as a teenager, before its tropes and twists entered pop culture. As an adult, he appreciates the worldbuilding and themes more than its adventure plotting.
  • "It's like reading it, but I don't have the nostalgia for the story or the character which I think a lot of people... have." – Andrew (75:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "There’s always a woman riding a sandworm behind every great man." – Andrew (10:34)
• "The spice gotta flow somehow. And mushrooms helps." – Andrew (11:57)
• "Listen, I took the spice, and here I am. I'm talking about Kevin James. No..." – Craig (18:08)
• "I don't want Kevin J. Anderson or Brandon Sanderson to be out on the street, so... that's the main thing that language models try to..." – Andrew (18:55)
• On the adaptation history: "This was his third movie, third feature film if you count Eraserhead." – Craig, on David Lynch’s Dune (22:49)
• "Put on your stillsuit. It’s time to watch Dune." – Andrew (27:51)
• "The Freeman ride [the worms], and, like, respect them because they understand that the worms make the spice. They are the buffalo." – Ellen & Andrew (59:30–59:32)
• "I'd miss out on part of that equation ... It’s like reading it but I don’t have the nostalgia for it." – Andrew (75:28–75:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:00] Frank Herbert bio and politics
• [09:42] Genesis and publication history of Dune
• [16:20, 17:33, 18:45] Cultural influence, Star Wars, Kevin J. Anderson
• [20:01] Jodorowsky’s Dune
• [22:30] Lynch and other Dune adaptations
• [28:27] Dune II and real-time strategy games
• [31:22] Guardian’s take: Dune as “fantasy of the Age of Aquarius”
• [32:29] On “Jihad” versus “crusade” and Herbert’s cultural approach
• [35:36] Andrew on Internet Dune memes
• [39:08] Dune plot explained
• [51:58] On immersive worldbuilding and jargon
• [61:11] Purposeful avoidance of AI in Dune’s universe
• [66:13] Structural critique: chapter epigraphs and spoilers
• [75:42] On nostalgia and reading Dune as an adult

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• Frank Herbert’s Dune is not just the supreme classic of sci-fi for its story, but for its scale, its ecological focus, and the detailed, immersive world it creates.
• The book’s unique narrative devices and heavy worldbuilding can be disorienting at first, but ultimately create a deeply influential sci-fi setting that changed the genre’s trajectory.
• While Dune’s messianic, adventure-epic plot has inspired countless imitators (including Star Wars), its value as an “adult” re-read lies in its themes of environmentalism, the dangers of charismatic power, and cultural adaptation.
• Its adaptation history is as epic and fraught as the book itself, with failed projects, cult classics, and blockbuster reboots shaping its pop culture legacy.
• Approaching Dune today, readers may find it more familiar and less surprising—but its insight, ambition, and "spice" remain potent.

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For more episodes, book lists, and community content, visit OverduePodcast.com.

Transcript

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Craig]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yes, we did get one of their comforters. We got some of their jammies. I'll tell you what this comforter does. Put the comfort in comforter.

[Craig]

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[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

this is a Headgum podcast.

[Craig]

While Andrew and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told tale, they will not shy

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

away from spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. Hey everybody. Welcome to Overdue. It's a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

My name is Andrew and it's time

[Craig]

everyone to look into the past. Actually no. I'm taking an old podcast off the shelf, I'm blowing all the dust off of it

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

and then you're peeing in your own pants. And you're drinking it because that's how bad you need to preserve water here in the arid desert of the planet of Arrakis.

[Craig]

Welcome to our first annotated edition of April 2026. We have three of them queued up for you this month. And this week, we are starting with Frank Herbert's Dune. Andrew, which.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Do you have the episode number to Hand?

[Craig]

Episode 8, released on April 1, 2013.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Ugh. April Fools. Yeah, we're the April Fools.

[Craig]

We are the April Fools.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

This is this. Normally on this podcast, every week, one of us reads a book that we've never before, tells the other person about it, tells you about it. We have a good time. There will still be some people, like different versions of us who perform that task. Shadow this week's episode. But Shadow us didn't used to do the part at the beginning of the show where we do any. Where we bring, like, any research to it and talk about the author and where they came from and other stuff that they did.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I mean, listen, there's a purity to doing it the way we originally did it.

[Craig]

It truly.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Just like, this is all I'm bringing to. This is what I. What I got from the book.

[Craig]

Yeah. And I think the discussion's fun. You will enjoy listening to it. And there are.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I will.

[Craig]

Yeah, probably. But also, there is a little bit in each of these of, like, whatever research we did, or particularly the. The person who did not read the book maybe brought some stuff to the table to participate in the conversation.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

But, like, we. We had discussions sometimes about what the other person would, like, have to do. But I don't. I don't remember.

[Craig]

No, it was not.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

It was at least a year before we started doing the actual research stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah. So we thought that one way for us to have fun with a new format on the show was to do it this way.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Just a little bit of a break. Just a little, tiny. Just a little, tiny bit of a break for the first time in, like, 11 years. Just a little, tiny one.

[Craig]

And it's not even really a break because here you are still doing work.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

We're still doing work. And I'm gonna have to watch this Audacity file to make sure we don't accidentally talk for 45 minutes.

[Craig]

We're still laughing into a can, aren't we?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Still laughing. But. Well, now there are people who pay us to laugh into our can, which was not the case in episode eight.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Nobody was paying us anything. We were doing it purely for the love of the game.

[Craig]

I think we still had referral. We had referral links that early, but we didn't have anything else. So here we go. Andrew, do you want to tell me about Franklin Patrick Herbert Jr. The author of Dune?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I can tell you a little bit about Frank Herbert.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Who was born in 1920 and died in 1986 and is a sci fi author, best known for Dune and its sequels, but who also wrote short stories, worked as a journalist and photographer among many other things.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Frank Herbert was an avid reader and photographer from an early age. He ran away from home to live with his aunt and uncle.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

At age 18 because of his parents alcoholism.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Which is cool. Yeah. He began working as a journalist for local papers like the Glendale Star and the Oregon statesman Starting in 1939, 1940. This, some of the work that he was doing at papers like brought him to the attention of like local Republican politicians and he worked on a couple campaigns in this space. He was, he was mainly active in the Republican party. His views are hard to nail down because the parties didn't used to be like quite so dogmatic on quite so many things as they are now. And also. But I mean some of it also is just because. Is not clear which school of right wing thought can most fully claim Frank Herbert.

[Craig]

Well, and he's got.

[Andrew]

I didn't.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I want to just get this out

[Andrew]

of the way at the start.

[Craig]

No, no. I've got a few thoughts on that. Like, he's got, you know, he is got the Pacific Northwest environmentalist angle. He's got.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And that's a lot of where Dune comes from.

[Craig]

He's got the Pacific Northwest libertarian. I think he's a libertarian environmentalist. Dual class is really what he's doing.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

He's. Yeah.

[Craig]

And he, you know, broadly distrusted government. He said he liked Nixon, but he was disappointed that Nixon made us all distrust the presidency. And I think he did like Reagan for like family values.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I'm being defeated by the notes app because of my inability to spell the word bureaucracy. But he at one point said that

[Andrew]

the civil service was like the worst

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

thing that had ever happened to democracy.

[Craig]

Yeah. So I don't know. He was also like. And I'm sure we'll talk about this. He was really into Zen Buddhism.

[Ellen]

Like he's just.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

He was into. He was in his end. Buddhism. He did. He hated the Vietnam War. He did. He wasn't on board with like McCarthy ism.

[Craig]

He was, you know, he was related to Joseph McCarthy.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

He was related to Joseph McCarthy, which I don't know if that made hating McCarthy ism easier or harder, but still.

[Craig]

Yeah, he was a speechwriter for at least one like prominent senator. So you know, I, I don't know that we're here to draw a straight line between political speeches he wrote and rackets.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

But I'm not, I'm not. I just found it. I just think it's interesting when people are like a little study in contradiction.

[Craig]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

So Frank Herbert, he meets his second wife, Beverly Ann Stewart. I mentioned I bring up her and not the first wife. Just like. Mostly because she is the mother of Brian Herbert, who becomes an important character in this, in this story in a little. But he meets her in a creative writing class at the University of Washington. Brian Herbert says that his dad never finished college because he wouldn't take required classes that he was not interested in. Which I totally. Which I get. I do get it. Herbert sold his first story to esquire magazine in 1945. Didn't publish his first sci fi story until 1952. That story was called Looking for Something and it appeared in Startling stories. Man, I love all these old timey like sci fi magazine names because they're all like, cool stuff for boys. Every magazine used to be named that.

[Ellen]

Well, and I like, you know, the

[Craig]

Dragon in the Sea is his first novel, right.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Dragon in the SEAS published in 1956 as a novel and then it was published before that in serialized form in a publication called Astounding Science Fiction starting in late 1955.

[Craig]

Well, I and I and he goes on, he writes a couple other novels, but Dune comes up pretty quickly, starts working on it in 59. But as I was reading a little bit about Dune, everybody is like, yeah, everyone thought that sci fi readers just didn't have attention spans. They just all wanted like little slivers of like, ooh, a fun robot today. And Dune is like, what if 500 pages of desert.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, right.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I mean part. Yeah, he, he starts work in 1959. He's only. He's able to devote himself full time to writing because his wife had a day job writing ad copy. He.

[Craig]

There's always a woman behind the man.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

There's always a woman. Yeah, a woman riding a sandworm behind every great man. He, he himself does not. He's not able to quit his day job and become a full time fiction writer until like 1972. It's a while. It's a while. But he's inspired to write this partly by the Oregon dunes, which are. There's some sand dunes, some of the practices of the Freeman characters in the book. I don't know about the stillsuit, like p. Drink and stuff, but some of the practices are inspired by real world sand dune management stuff.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

It was also born of his sort of belief that people and societies naturally trend toward feudalism. Like, they are willing to have a few decision makers at the top and then most people just want to follow orders. Listen, I don't think that's been disproven

[Craig]

at this point, unfortunately.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Unfortunately. And then he also, like, kind of had a. Had an interest in sort of messianic religions that come from sort of arid climate.

[Craig]

Yeah, he was. He was big into the Lawrence of Arabia story. I think there's a lot of that in here. He was, I think had read a history of Muslims in the caucuses dealing with the Russian empire and. And then also apparently a lot of the fantastical elements he was doing with mushrooms. Like, he was just doing mushrooms.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Listen, man, that's cool. The spice gotta flow somehow. And mushrooms helps.

[Ellen]

Yep. Huh.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

When Suzanne is writing her Bridgerton fiction, you know what? Sometimes a gummy. Sometimes a gummy's just what the doctor ordered when. So, okay, yes. The book takes six years of writing and research to finish. It's published originally in serialized format in analog science fiction. And fact is apparently just like kind of a renamed version of Astounding or an offshoot that's run by the same guy. I don't know the full story of that, but they're all the same. Yeah, it's published in like, two serialized sort of volumes from 62 to 65. And then he's trying to get it published as a single book. And partly because of its length, like 20. Nearly 20 publishers. I don't know if that means 1918. Nobody. I can't find the, like, the number below 20. That makes it nearly 20 instead of 20. Nearly 20 publishers declined to publish the book as a single novel. And then Herbert strikes a deal with a company known mainly for publishing car repair manuals and, like, Biz and B2B trade magazines.

[Craig]

This is like how, like, Dirty Dancing was, like, published by a film company that had, like, no other business making. It's so weird.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

So, yeah, these people who publish, like, car repair manuals read, like, this guy reads Dune and likes it and gives Herbert, like 7,500 bucks to publish it.

[Ellen]

Perfect.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

When it is. And he edits, I think the. Yeah, he does every version a lot. I don't know exactly what changes. I just know that it did. But yeah, when Dune is Finally published as a single volume in 1965, it wins the first ever Nebula Award.

[Craig]

What was it the first ever. Did it.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

That's what I. That's what I saw.

[Craig]

Did it share that or did it share the Hugo?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I think it shared the Hugo.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

But it does win. It wins the Hugo. Ty is still a win.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's true.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And it was, you know, it was reasonably successful for a sci fi book at the time. It didn't do well enough for him to quit his day job. He continued work as an education writer and lecturer in this period. And then. Yeah, like I said, by 72, he is finally able to quit his job and devote himself fully to writing. Herbert himself writes five sequel novels that are published between 1969 and 1985.

[Craig]

Do you have the titles for me?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

There is Dune Messiah, There's Children of Dune, There's God Emperor of Dune, There's Heretics of Dune, and there's Chapter House Colon Dune. And many, many of these names I am familiar with because I have seen them in sentences that go something like, I fell off of Dune after one of these books. I think Susanna said her. Like, the one she hears the most often is God Emperor. Which feels right to me.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. About three books. Maybe three of them.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, yeah. You get three or four in and you're like, okay, yeah. I'm either, like, I'm either gonna devote the rest of my life to this or I'm gonna quit. I think it brought to mind all that Orson Scott Card.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Like Ender's Game secret stuff. He's got so many of those things.

[Craig]

I'm thinking right now how much I enjoy speaker for the Dead and Xenoverse is kind of messy. And then there's another one after that. Or which one's Children of the Mind? I don't remember. And then there's all the other neocom books that he wrote about Bean. And you're like, yes. What are you doing, dude?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yes, I. And then from 1999 onward, his son, Brian Herbert begins collaborating with this guy, Kevin J. Anderson.

[Craig]

Star wars books own Kevin J. Anderson. I'm familiar with his name.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I'm glad you know something about Kevin J. Anderson, because I did not look into him.

[Craig]

Yes. Let me look up which series it was.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

But the two of them write roughly 1 million dune, preacher and sequel novels. Some of these were based, like. The sequel novels that they write together are based on notes that Herbert had left about a seventh Dune book before he died. I think the gap between the last Dune book that Herbert writes in 1985, and then them taking up with the prequel sequels in 99 is because, like, a lot of. Of notes and stuff just like, kind of weren't found for like a decade or so after Herbert died.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

But yeah. So to today, I don't know. I'm curious to hear about adaptations from you, because I think that is all the. All the big Denis Villeneuve movies are the.

[Ellen]

Sure.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Are like a big driver of the book's current popularity.

[Craig]

Yeah, for sure.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

But, yeah, today, doing it as sequels stand as enormously successful and influential works of fiction. According to Britannica, the first novel has been translated into 20 languages and has sold over 20 million copies. It arguably helped popularize the idea of ecology. Just like interesting. Like the idea and the practice of it. And in terms of world building, it is. I. I've. I have read that Dune is to sci fi what Lord of the Rings is to fantasy fiction.

[Ellen]

I could buy that.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Just like how you. Yeah, this is. This is how you build this big, like, weird interplanetary world and then set a bunch of books in it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And then the Oregon Encyclopedia claims, without any. Any citation that I could see, but claims that Dune and Arrakis are the inspiration for a planet called Tatooine in a movie called Star Wars.

[Craig]

Oh, you mean A New Hope?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

There's a movie called Star wars, and it's by this guy Lucas George. And apparently there's just, like, a really dry planet in that that somebody lives on.

[Craig]

Yeah. With Low Bakken.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And Dune and Arrakis are the inspiration for that desert plant.

[Craig]

I think I have an explanation for that a little bit for you. Do you? But I do want to share that. Okay, here's my take on Kevin J. Anderson. I read a lot of Kevin J. Anderson books as a kid.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I did think for a split second you were gonna hit me with the thought on Kevin James, and I was like, I don't know if this is the time or the place, but, like,

[Craig]

okay, listen, I took the spice, and here I am. I'm talking about Kevin James. No, I read the Jedi Academy trilogy as a kid. I read a lot of young Jedi knights books of his as a kid. I had thought that he might have done some X Wing books, but he was not the X Wing guy. That's Stack. Michael Stackpole, I think. But I'm just looking at this guy's bibliography, and it is so many other people's IP that he got to write books of. And, like, yeah, I just don't want AI to take this career from us. Like this is. Like this should be someone's life.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

It should be somebody's life.

[Craig]

There are plenty of people like Kevin J. Anderson who get paid to help me keep thinking about Star Wars. Yeah, don't take that from us.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Like, I don't want Kevin J. Anderson or Brandon Sanderson to be out on the street, so. Because their main thing is that they can write a lot really fast based on other people's material and that. That's the main thing that language models try to.

[Craig]

Yeah. Anyway, let's talk about Dune.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Let's talk about Dune. Tell me about all the movies including the. The. The 80s one from David lynch that has Patrick Stewart in it, which is the only thing I know about it.

[Craig]

So the first film adaptation of Dune was optioned in 1971 by a guy named Arthur P. Jacobs. But he died.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

This is the unfinished one, right?

[Craig]

No, not even that one. That guy died. He didn't get to make it. Then the rights went over to another production and they hired the Chilean French director, Alejandro Jodorowsky. And this is the guy that they made a documentary of called Jodorowsky's Dune. And it is all about how he was trying to make it for way too much money and that the script would have resulted in a 14 hour movie, the original Game of Thrones.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And yeah, I mean he could have sold it to HBO in the early 2010s. Am I right?

[Craig]

It's true. The cast would have included Salvador Dali, Orson Wellesley Jodorowsky's own son who was 12 as Paul Atreides, music by Pink Floyd, and a French prog rock band named Magma. And the design included guys like Chris Foss, Jean Giraud and H.R.

[Ellen]

geiger. Oh.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Huh.

[Craig]

So when that thing, the guy who

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

the count, the guy from the counter,

[Craig]

the guy who makes the aliens. So those, some of those guys go off and make Alien. They're like the design team on Ridley Scott's Alien. Because Ridley Scott get is one of the guys that they try to tap to make the. The 80s dune. Because very normal person, Dino De Laurentiis, he purchased the rights in 1976 after the other one falls apart and he's working with Ridley Scott. Ridley Scott is like working on drafts of the script. He ends up dropping out because one of his, you know, he had a brother who passed away. He's like, I can't do this, I gotta move on. And those other guys go with him and go make Alien.

[Ellen]

The.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

That's amazing. I just, I love the swing of I'm gonna get all the most famous people you ever heard of and like maybe I'll slide my son in there.

[Craig]

Yeah, just Salvador Dali.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But the, I think the design book, the storyboard book from the Jodorowsky Dune. I really need to go watch this document now. Got passed around Hollywood. And so that is one of the things that I think makes it into the soup from which Lucas George makes Star War. That kind of is out there in the ether. So when you say like Dune is the sci fi equivalent of Lord of the Rings for kind of 20th century and 21st century fiction beyond it, I think some of that is. It's a mix of the novel itself and the work that a lot of people were putting in for about 20 years trying to make it a movie. And then it kind of spread. So then they hired David lynch in 1984 off of the back of his Oscar nominated. I'm not sure if it won anything Oscar nominated at least film Elephant Man.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Just real quick, if you want to watch Jodorowsky's Dune, it doesn't seem like it's available to stream for like with a subscription, but you can like rent it from a bunch of places.

[Craig]

Wonderful, thank you. Yeah, lynch, you know, this was his third movie, third feature film if you count Eraserhead.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And this is all like happening pre Twin Peaks. Pre all.

[Craig]

Oh, very much so. He was. He had been in conversations to direct Return of the Jedi and he did this instead. Well, yeah, he worked. I know.

[Ellen]

Sick.

[Andrew]

Whoa.

[Craig]

He worked for six months on this script with two other guys. Didn't work out. Then he wrote five more drafts. All sorts of big stars auditioned or were tested for Paul Atreides, including Tom Cruise, Kevin Costner, Kenneth Branagh and more. But then he picks Agent Cooper, Kyle McLaughlin because he loves him so much.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

He should.

[Craig]

Yeah, he should.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

He should.

[Craig]

And they shot the entire thing in Mexico because I think it was supposed to be cheaper. But then of course it took six months. So it was 40 million plus dollars

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

to make David lynch.

[Craig]

The rough cut.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Lynch, you can't not be yourself.

[Craig]

The rough cut was four hours long and the original lynch cut was three hours long. And they knew they needed to get it down to two for Universal. So they added voiceover narrations and a simplified plot in some areas. And there are three hour cuts out there that you can.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I was gonna say, I assume a director's cut is surfaced of this. I don't because like the movie, I know the movie was not like it didn't do great at the time, but

[Craig]

Then it became kind of a cult object.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, it got a cult thing over time, like as David Lynch's legend sort of grows and.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think actually he never, from what I was reading, he never sat down and did the David lynch director cut. It was that there was a tell. There were like television versions out there that used different cuts of footage and like added things in. And so people have just pieced it together. The cast includes comic Lachlan, Dean Stockwell, Brad Dourif, Virginia Madsen, Sting, Max von Sydow and Patrick Stewart. There's a 2000 miniseries. People are now trying to make more dune. You know, 15 years later, there's a movie that Peter Berg is attached to that doesn't come together. He, you know, Friday Night Lights, he's too busy talking about football. He can't go to arrakis. There's a 2000 Sci Fi miniseries. Sci Fi channel, sifi.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Well, if it's 2000, we're probably still talking about the Sci Fi Channel.

[Craig]

Yeah, I had to dig in because, you know, some people were calling it Sifi, but it was not.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I was watching it. Listen, in the year 2000, I was watching a lot of the Sci Fi Channel because they were still rerunning Mystery Science Theater at the the time. And you. I would always see the commercials for sliders and all the other cool original programming that they were doing.

[Craig]

And then we now have the Modern Dunes by Dennis Denis Vinu, the first outpatient in 2021. Dune Part 2 in 2024. I think there's more coming. I don't know if it's called Part three or not.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

We got this guy, Timothy Chalmette.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Willie is in it pulling all these,

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

these like unknowns for these Sci Fi.

[Craig]

Very strange. Yeah. Listen to this cast of unknowns. Zendaya Polys supreme over Oscar Isaac, Josh Brolin, Rebecca Ferguson, Stellan Skarsgard, Dave Bautista, Jason Momoa, Javier Bardem. A lot of no name people in this movie.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Just like a who's who of guys.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's. It seems like along with like Oppenheimer and Barbie and Top Gun, it's like saving cinema and like the Minecraft movie. It's like, you know, they're so excited to have reasons to go to the box office.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but same word. And Sam Worm jockeys.

[Craig]

I've seen it. The kids go crazy. All the reels. I have not watched a dune. Have you watched a Dune?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I haven't watched the Dunes. Susanna likes them.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think I've.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I've got Them. I have them stored on media somewhere. Like, I watched. I just. It. That's just.

[Andrew]

That's just me and movies, though.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Like, I have a complicated relationship with.

[Craig]

You have a hard time with a movie. I know you think the movie.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I think movies is good when they. When they are good. But it's just so much easier for me to decide, hey, I'm going to watch two hour long episodes of tv because there are a lot of, like, decision points and like, off ramps that I could take while I'm doing that. And especially for these dude movies that are like three and a half hours long or whatever they are, it's. It's just a lot to do all in one go. And I never feel like I can. I feel weirder about stopping a movie in the middle and coming back to it.

[Craig]

Yeah, no, I still don't like that.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I'm like, listen, I know. I know that Denny is trying to, like, build a mood over the course of many hours. And he would probably kick my butt if he thought I was watching on my phone. Like, phone or whatever. He's one of those guys.

[Craig]

Your butt. He would.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And he was just like, get mad at me for pausing it in the middle. And he's like, listen, I intended for you to watch this all in one go.

[Craig]

Strap in.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, strap in. I got you a big cup to pee in if you need to. This is how movies.

[Craig]

Put on your suit.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, put on your still suit. It's time to watch Dune.

[Craig]

No, I know. It's the thing a lot of parents like, do where it's like, yeah, I watched that Oscar winner over three days. Like, I can't do it. It's hard. I can't do it.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But anyway, I want to respect Denny

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

and I don't want him to come over my house and kick my butt.

[Craig]

Maybe we should watch. I feel like you and I do better when we're, like, watching movies in a crew. So maybe we just find a Dune crew.

[Andrew]

I mean, who.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

What people we know are gonna be like, yeah, sure, three and a half hours. Well, that's together at the same time and do that.

[Craig]

That's impossible. But, you know, who knows? I do also want to shout out Dune 2 by Westwood Studios. It was a computer game. I think you might have mentioned it briefly in Episode eight. Andrew. These are the makers of Command and Conquer. Not all of our listeners will know some of the titles I'm going to name here, but it is the early, successful real time strategy game. It's borrowing influences from herzog Zwei, Populace and Eye the Beholder. But all the games that come after it. Warcraft, Age of Empires, Starcraft, Total Annihilation and then the games that are not those like that exact genre that come out of that World of Warcraft. Maybe you've heard of it. Maybe you've played a tower defense game on your phone.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

You got the civ games in there somewhere.

[Craig]

Yeah, maybe you've played Clash of Clans on your phone. All of these. The kind of Interface from dune2 and the like base management and kind of using the mouse to move units around, that kind of stuff. It's a pretty influential game. That is kind of neat that it came out of Dune. That's cool. Yeah, I think I pulled a bunch of.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

I'm really. I'm a real sucker for a licensed game where somebody cared about it.

[Craig]

Yeah, well, we're out of that era now, but.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

We're out of that era now. But like you can still go back and play the DuckTales game. You just like, you can still do that if you want.

[Craig]

You can. And the last thing I will bring to the table here is I read a a Guardian piece from 2015 about 50 years of Dune. 50 years on by. This is.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

This is the kind of thing that we couldn't have done in Episode eight because it hadn't been written yet.

[Craig]

That is true. He talks a little bit about some of the space opera tropes that the book had been born out of, talks a bit about the Zen stuff and Herbert's libertarianism, and then makes the Lord of the Rings comparison. Every fantasy reflects the place in time that produced it. If Lord of the Rings is about the rise of fascism and the trauma of the Second World War and Game of Thrones with its cynical real politic and cast of precarious entrepreneurial characters, is a fairy tale of neoliberalism, then Dune is the paradigmatic fantasy of the Age of Aquarius. Its concerns, environmental stress, human potential, altered states of consciousness and the developing countries revolution against imperialism are blended together into an era defining vision of personal and cosmic transformation. And there's also a lot of. That article led me to some other writing in Al Jazeera and a couple other places about Herbert's use of Arabic and other Islamic language in the book, which is. There are some quotes from him about like it's not. He doesn't view it as just exoticism. It is about kind of honoring the the populations that he is inspired to write the books about, though he is probably getting it secondhand. Some of the language and a. Like this older. You know, one of these older Western religions is gonna kind of wrap around and inform whatever this future society is like. It's not, you know, in a way, it is actually trying to kind of un. Other it. But that's interesting take. So. Yeah, that's. That's like.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Interestingly, that's something that. That Frank Herbert was. Was like. Did try to be careful about. Like I did. Like I. There's a book that he was doing that was partially about like Native American populations.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

And he like, he was writing a draft of it and he realized that he was writing it like too much from like a white man's perspective. And so he scrapped it and started over. Like, you know, it's. Yeah.

[Craig]

So I read something he was.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Something he was interested in.

[Craig]

The article specifically I'm thinking about is in Dune, Paul Atreides led a jihad, not a crusade. It's in Al Jazeera and it base. It specifically uses the fact that in a trailer for one of the movies they say that Atreides is going on a crusade to talk about how the language in the book actually says jihad. And that's like very important to what Herbert is doing. And the quote I'll just pull is, Herbert's future is one where Islam is not a separate unchanging element belonging to the past, but a part of the future universe at every level. Just an interesting take.

[Andrew]

So.

[Craig]

Okay, that's Dune, Andrew.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

That's Dune.

[Craig]

Except.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

All right, everybody, time to listen to 27 year old versions of us talk about Dune without the benefit of any of the stuff that we just talked about.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Ellen]

We try these things fresh and that's part of the fun. We hope so if we are uninformed about certain things, that's kind of the point is to get a little informed or at least know what we don't know about. How about that? Yes. So I don't know about Dune, Andrew, which I believe in the book that you read this week.

[Andrew]

I read Dune by Frank Herbert. And the book, the book cover says that it's science fiction's supreme masterpiece. There can be only one.

[Ellen]

Oh, my God. We've been reading some books with some, like, pretty lofty goals. Last time we read the greatest war

[Craig]

novel of all time.

[Ellen]

Now we are reading the supremest science fiction novel.

[Andrew]

Yes, they are only getting more hyperbolic.

[Ellen]

I think next week we'll just read the Bible. I think that's the logical culmination of it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's the only one. It goes straight all quiet on the Western front, then Dune, then the word of the Lord our God.

[Ellen]

So why Dune?

[Andrew]

Andrew, have you ever felt like you were on the outside of every joke that has ever been told on the Internet?

[Ellen]

I didn't know that you were specifically gonna like, turn hard into the Internet there. I've been, like, in conversations with people where I didn't know what was going on. Is. Is really every joke on the Internet related to Dune.

[Andrew]

There are just. There are so many of them and I think I've seen more of them since I read Dune, probably because I'm, like, aware of them. And I've also made a couple, which is fun. Okay. But yeah, you see these Internet catchphrases about, like, spice and about. About the various jargon that is used throughout Dune. And. And so I. It always kind of been on my list of books to read. And when I was a kid, actually, my cousin had this Dune video game for his. His like, 386pc that.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

That I thought was pretty cool, but I'd never watched the movie. And the only thing I know about the movies that has Patrick Stewart in

[Ellen]

it is that the. The David lynch movie has Patrick Stewart in it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the 80s movie.

[Ellen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

Unless there were two dude movies in the 80s.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

Okay.

[Ellen]

I mean, I know. I know about it because I've read up on some David lynch, but yeah, I've never seen it. So.

[Andrew]

Yeah, so it's like it's a pop cultural touchstone of some. Of some renown and kind of been on my list For a while. So, like, when we started talking about this, that made my. My short list of things I would get around to reading eventually. And so here we are.

[Ellen]

Would you. All right, so this might be useful to know, going into a discussion of a sci fi book. What is your background in sci fi, Andrew? Like, what. Where do you draw a lot of your references from, etcetera?

[Andrew]

Well, I think, as we've talked about a little, like, I have been known to read, like, fantasy stuff like Lord of the Rings and the Wheel of Time. Oh, my God. And like, my dad instilled in us from a young age a love of Star Trek. Even the bad Star Trek.

[Ellen]

Okay. Which I. Which I know that that love burns to this day. Is that true?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Right. And then to a lesser extent, Star Wars. Though I am way less willing to forgive Star wars awfulness than some people I know.

[Ellen]

That's. That's very fair. Okay, so you just kind of knew that Dune was important, but you didn't necessarily know anything about Dune itself, right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

All right, break it down for me. What the heck is Dune about?

[Andrew]

Okay, so if. If I sat here and just. Just told you every single thing that happens in Dune, it would be super boring. So I'm gonna try and keep it, like, pretty surface level.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And we can talk about a little bit, but then I want to get more into, like, a discussion of how the book is structured and, like, how it goes about introducing you to its. To its world, so. Dude. Okay, so the basic arc is kind of. Kind of a. Like, it's a lot. There are a lot of politics, and there's a lot of, like, revenge, and there's, like, a messianic figure, so. So, yeah, I'll try and glide over it as smoothly as I can, but there's. It's like, There's a lot. There's just a lot that happens.

[Ellen]

All right. Where does it take place? In space.

[Andrew]

Okay, it takes place not in space. Like, space is there. It's kind of in the. In theory, it's, like, thousands of years in the future.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And most of the action takes place on Dune.

[Ellen]

Wait, in theory or the story actually takes place thousands of years.

[Andrew]

Okay, the story, I believe, actually takes place thousands of years into the future. Sorry. And there is, like, interplanetary travel. So, like, space is a thing.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But most of the action takes place on Dune. Or in the book, it's called Arrakis. Okay, so there's this family, the Atreides, I think. I think is the. How you pronounce the Name. And there are lots. There are lots of names in this

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

book and I'm probably gonna pronounce them wrong.

[Andrew]

So Dune nerds, just kind of hold on to your butts and we'll get through this.

[Craig]

Are there still Dune nerds?

[Ellen]

Are there, like, hardcore Dune nerds?

[Andrew]

There are like six or there are a bunch of books to this series.

[Ellen]

I thought you said there were six Dune nerds.

[Andrew]

No, no, I'm sure there are more than that. I'm sure they. There are tens of Dune nerds.

[Ellen]

Okay, so the Atreides move toward. Move to the Dune planet.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Who are these Arrakis? And they're, they're kind of taking over management of the planet from this family called the Harkonnens.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

The deal with Arrakis is that there is the spice that's made there.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And it's like, kind of addictive and it's kind of got, like, life lengthening properties.

[Ellen]

Cool.

[Andrew]

And so it's, like, very valuable. And, and so whoever controls this spice, like, controls a substantial part of the, like, economic. You know, the substantial slice of the economic pie of, like, this, this universe.

[Ellen]

So it's, it's the, like, MacGuffin of the Dune verse. It is. Everybody wants it.

[Andrew]

Yeah, pretty much. So there's this family, the Harkonnens, and the, the like emperor who resides over all these various, like, royal houses says, okay, now the Atreides family is going to come and they're going to rule Arrakis. And so the, there's the patriarch of the Atreides family, whose name is Leto. There's his son Paul, and his. And like, Paul's mom, but not Leto's wife. She's like his concubine because she's. Yeah, she's, she's part of this. And they're called witches in the book. And I don't know, it seems kind of derogatory to call them witches, but they seem okay with it. Okay, so, like, she is part of this kind of cult of, of, of. I don't. What's the word? I want, like, wise women called the.

[Craig]

Okay, it's.

[Andrew]

See, it's super cold. I'm trying to. I'm.

[Ellen]

It's not an idiom. I know. That's the only reason I laughed. That you were like, wise, old. You meant like old wise men?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Like, wise women?

[Andrew]

Yeah, like wisdom women.

[Craig]

They're.

[Ellen]

They're kind of a council of elders, but they're only female.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And that they're. They're called the Bene Gesserits.

[Ellen]

Okay, great. And I'm still working on memorizing Atreides.

[Andrew]

But I. Atreides is okay.

[Ellen]

That's in my brain because all I see is just a trayu from the Never Ending Story. So I'm good. The Atreides are locked in.

[Andrew]

I'm trying to. I'm trying to walk you through now.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

This.

[Ellen]

The Benihana. The Benihana women, Bene Gesserit women, they live on Dune.

[Andrew]

Well, they're, they're all over the place. Like, they're, they're. They're kind of the shepherds of, of civilization now. Like there are some implications that, that they are aware of, like a greater truth. And they're, they're kind of responsible for like, maintaining genetic diversity among like the families that are still around. And, and yeah, they're only women because in this universe, like, only women can handle like the secrets of the universe.

[Ellen]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

And so they've got this messianic.

[Ellen]

That's every universe, but sure, sure.

[Andrew]

Yeah. They've got this, this messianic figure called the Kwisatz Haderach.

[Ellen]

Sure. Yeah. So the Greasy Hat Rack is gonna come.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the Greasy Hatrack is like a prophecy leader who's gonna like unify everybody. And his deal is that he's gonna be a guy who can handle the secret of the universe that the Bene Gesserit people know about. But he's gonna be a dude.

[Ellen]

Okay, but he's gonna be a dude.

[Andrew]

That's his thing. Alright, so Jessica, who is the, you know, Paul Atreides? Mother thinks that Paul is the Kwisatz Haderach.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Okay. All right. Now where should I go next? We've. Okay, what do we. Okay, walk me back through what we've established so far. We're on. We're on Arrakis.

[Ellen]

We're on Arrakis. There are a bunch of women who know the secrets of the universe.

[Andrew]

Yes.

[Ellen]

And Paul, right?

[Craig]

Is that his name?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ellen]

Okay. A very normal name in this universe.

[Craig]

All right.

[Ellen]

Brother Paul may or may not be the Grease Owes. Haderach.

[Andrew]

Yeah,

[Ellen]

I tried not to call him the Greasy Hat Rack. I tried to call him what it is, and I don't remember what you said.

[Andrew]

Kwisatz Haderach.

[Craig]

Oh, Kwisatz.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's K W I something something sots.

[Ellen]

All right. Great. Hatterach. And he lives on Dune. Is he the prince of the Atreyu family?

[Andrew]

The Atreides family, yes. Okay, so. Okay, the. Okay, going back to the. Like, I guess those are kind of background elements that you need to know.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

We haven't even hit the plot yet. I think I just. I wrapped in my brain around this universe, which is smart. It's necessary.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So the Atreides family comes to rule Arrakis, but this dude, the Baron Harkonnen, okay. Who. His family has ruled Arrakis for some unspecified amount of time, and they've got, like, a lot of spice stockpiled, and they want to keep control of the spice.

[Ellen]

Cool.

[Andrew]

So Baron Harkonnen basically kills Leto Atreides, the. You know, the Duke, the patriarch of the family. And Paul and Jessica are kind of forced into hiding. And they hide with this. This race of people who are, like, indigenous to Arrakis, called the Freeman.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Who have this whole. This whole way of life that kind of revolves around making the most of their limited water supply. Because the deal with Dune, of course, is that it's a desert planet and of course that, like, water is an extremely limited supply. So they've got these, like, suits that they wear that, like, convert their waste and sweat and stuff into potable water because they just can't. They can't afford to waste it.

[Ellen]

Okay, cool.

[Andrew]

When. When people. When they. When members of their race die, their. Their bodies are kind of. The water is drawn out of them.

[Ellen]

Ew. Gross.

[Andrew]

And like, given back to the tribe.

[Craig]

Oh, God.

[Ellen]

It's kind of some neat stuff that is. Do you have to drink it or do you just, like, put it in a bottle and say, that's Grandpa.

[Andrew]

There's. There's the different little communities among. Among this race of freemen. They keep their water kind of in a centrally located area because they think that if they can get, like, enough green stuff growing on the surface of Dune, they can kind of essentially terraform the planet.

[Ellen]

Oh, now do these people keep it from being. Oh, sorry. Do these people have technology to, like, travel? Are these people kind of bound to Dune? Do they have some of the more technological advances of the universe?

[Andrew]

They've got some stuff like there's. There's plenty of artillery and, like, weaponry that they have. There are kind of helicoptery things called ornithopters.

[Ellen]

Sure.

[Andrew]

That basically just sound like big, like, metal dragonflies that fly around.

[Ellen]

All right. All right.

[Andrew]

And, yeah, they're, like, interplanetary travel is possible. Like, the off world people like the Duke and his family and, like, the subjects that they rule over all have access to technology and stuff. So, yeah, like, I was doing a little bit of research, and the world has kind of a strange relationship to technology because this, this Is, I think, supposed to be our universe? Just.

[Ellen]

Yeah, it is supposed to be, right?

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm not. I don't know which planet is supposed to be Earth. Like, I'm sure it's a thing in one of the later books that they go into, but.

[Ellen]

Oh, yeah, sorry. It's not this. It's not Dune that is Earth, but it is. It is a continuation of the current universe in which you and I are podcasting about Dune.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So basically, like, they. There was some unpleasantness that related to artificial intelligence.

[Ellen]

Of course there was.

[Craig]

Of course there was.

[Andrew]

Caused the current state of affairs where you. Where you have to worry about things like genetic diversity.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And so they have technology, but they don't have, like, robots. They don't have, like. They don't have really involved, like, computer systems or anything like that.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Okay, so again, let's check in again. Where are we?

[Ellen]

So Paul and Jessica. His sister.

[Andrew]

His mother.

[Ellen]

His mother. All right. Jessica, his sister. His mother. His mother. Oops, they're hanging out. Yeah, it's the movie Chinatown. All of a sudden, he is hanging out with the. The Freeman on Dune.

[Andrew]

Yes. And so just as Paul is like the Kwisatz Haderach guy to the Bene Gesserit women.

[Ellen]

Uhhuh.

[Andrew]

He is. And if you were keeping up with these names, you were doing a lot better than I was for the first. First couple hours I was reading this book. But, you know, just as he is this messianic figure to the, like, quote, unquote civilized, you know, population of the. Of the galaxy.

[Ellen]

Mm.

[Andrew]

He's also a similar kind of messianic figure to the Freeman. He's like, the one will bring water to Dune and, like. And, like, rule over their people and, like, change the way of things.

[Ellen]

Now, I. I'm kind of sighing because of the, like, the nature of the heroic messiah story in science fiction, right? Like, the one who will bring balance to the force, et cetera, et cetera. But this. This book was written in 1965, before a lot of that other stuff was written, so I really shouldn't be like, wah. Another story with a hero who's gonna save the universe, Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Right. And I guess the. The important stuff to understand is for this. For just the first Dune book is the stuff that we've talked about. So you have the. The. You have the Atreides, you have the Harkonnens, you have the. The Freeman, and you, like, have a. Have a. You have a primer on all the, like, prophecies and stuff.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Okay.

[Andrew]

So of course, the book, you know, over the course of the book, he rallies the Freeman and he beats the Harkonnens and he, you know, avenges his father.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Basically, that's basically how the book ends, is like he is. He is now the. The. He takes over as emperor, basically.

[Ellen]

Oh, okay. Of just Dune or of everything.

[Andrew]

Of everything. So he's like, emperor of everything, which is the civilized. Like, the civilized, quote, unquote world.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And he's also, like, the ruler of the. Of the Freeman, so his, I guess his seat of power would be on Arrakis.

[Ellen]

Okay, cool. All right.

[Andrew]

But the book, like, the book ends before it gets, you know, before you actually see him actively ruling over everything. My understanding is that that happens more in later books. All right, so there you go.

[Ellen]

So, okay, so here's the setup of Dune and the ending of Dune, which makes sense. Is it, like, did you find it entertaining? Did you. I know, like, we don't want to slog through all the details, but, like, were you interested in the story as it was going, or is it more interesting for the world that it created?

[Andrew]

Oh, you. You, like, hit on all my big topics. I wanted to talk about, like, all at once.

[Ellen]

Oh, sorry.

[Andrew]

So let's start with the setup.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Cool way he sets things up.

[Ellen]

Cool.

[Andrew]

Now, and it's coming through in our discussion. Is that, like, essential to an understanding of Dune? The book is an understanding of all these names of everything.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And like, the. The lore of the universe and the book, I mean, the book just dumps you right into it. Like, you. You just. You open it up and immediately they're throwing around these terms, you know, Bene Gesserit and Caladan and Arrakis and. And, you know, names and names and names. And I don't know, like, I don't know what the. What the, like, reason is. Why. Why so many, like, fantasy and sci fi authors always go right to assigning strange names to what might otherwise be, like, identifiable elements, you know?

[Ellen]

Yeah, well, it's that. I mean, it's. It's one of those things that always feels refreshing. And I remember being refreshing when I first started watching Game of Thrones is like, there's a king and his name is Ned. Like, where there's, like a real, you know, like, John. You know, there's lots of normal names, but then. Then you meet a bunch of other people and they all have crazy freaking names. But I guess it's that sense of it has to be as foreign as possible because it's in a Completely foreign place. And so here in the Western world, it makes sense to use, like, I know some of the words in Dune, if they aren't exactly so feel very kind of Arabic or Middle Eastern in the roots of the names and stuff like that, which is fitting in with our, like, standard conceptions of, you know, that climate, I suppose.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I'm not sure what Frank Herbert's, like, background is or if he has any particular interest in that. In that kind of culture or anything. Like, as far as I can tell, there aren't a lot of, like, direct parallels drawn between people or races in the book and, you know, particular people or races in the. In the real world, you know, Know.

[Ellen]

Yeah. The only thing I found when I was kind of trying to prepare for this was that Herbert had read about, like, dunes in the state of Oregon and some whatever studies that the United States was doing on them at the time, in the 60s, I guess, and kind of sparked his interest in ecology and how the world is kind of shaped and the society is shaped by the environment in which it exists. Which kind of sounds like went right into this book.

[Craig]

Right.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And that's. That's a huge part of especially, like, the Freeman and stuff. Like, their whole way of life is, you know, it. It revolves around conserving water and finding water and developing new ways to accumulate water.

[Ellen]

Well, and like, there was a.

[Andrew]

There was a. There's a particular thing in the book that talks about how they like water plants. Okay. And they basically have these little, like, black globe things that. That I guess stay really cold when the sun comes up. And so they. There's like, condensation that forms on them.

[Ellen]

Huh.

[Andrew]

Briefly. And like, the. The water from that condensation is like

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

how they water the plants.

[Ellen]

That's so smart. Yeah, it is. That kind of. It feels, as you talk about it, it feels so much like a bunch of other science fiction I read. And so it's very fitting that this is like, earlier in science fiction's, you know, history, you know, or at least comparative for us. It goes all the way back to Asimov and stuff like that. But, yeah, yeah, it's kind of like you wouldn't, you know, like Dyson spheres, which are those things that Freeman Dyson said aliens would put around the sun to, like, capture energy from the sun. And that's how we know that there will be aliens, because we will find them. Like, it's these kind of technologies that we couldn't possibly make now but would come out of some sort of survivalist ingenuity yeah.

[Andrew]

They'd be driven by necessity.

[Ellen]

Yeah. What else about the whole kind of world building thing struck you, Andrew, or world building in general, that this book is making me think of?

[Andrew]

It's just. It's all very. There are a lot of things. Like, take like, the ornithopters, for instance. Like.

[Ellen]

Sure. Now, those are the helicopters. Right.

[Andrew]

They're helicopters, but not like, they serve exactly the same purpose that helicopters would. You could hear them like, you would hear helicopters. They can get, like, damaged and fall out of the sky like helicopters. Like, they might as well just be helicopter.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But they're not. And I guess, like, they're. They are like helicopters in every conceivable way, except they aren't helicopters.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's just little stuff like that that kind of tries to reframe ordinary things as, you know, extraordinary and kind of futuristic.

[Ellen]

Is this your. Do you think it's your critical eye kind of, or your mind's eye maybe? I'm not sure. I'm kind of, like, pulling you out in those moments. Or is that actually when you're reading the book itself as opposed to outside the book, like we are now? Does that distract you while you're reading it, or does it just kind of help maintain a consistency of fiction? Because I think that's the idea. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean, they're like. Once you are in it and once you are, like, familiar with the names, it doesn't pull you out anymore. Yeah, definitely at the beginning, it's a bit rough to get going to, like, keep all the names straight. And when you run into a name that the book hasn't used in a while.

[Ellen]

Oh, yeah, okay.

[Andrew]

They. I mean, he doesn't offer a lot by way of context. Like, you're just kind of expected to be keeping up with it, and it's not. It's not like, really an issue. But sometimes you have to stop and think, okay, you know, what is. What is a gam jabbar? Which, for the record, is like this. This box that you stick your hand in and it makes you feel pain.

[Craig]

And, like, why would you ever do that?

[Andrew]

It's part of the Bene Gesserit test. You have to be able to withstand it, I guess.

[Ellen]

Wait, to prove that you're a Bene Gesserit or to prove that you're the greasy hat rag?

[Andrew]

Well, I mean, since. Since to be the Kwisatz Haderach, you have to pass the Bene Gesserit tests. Oh, they're one in the same.

[Ellen]

Okay, cool.

[Andrew]

But it's yeah, it's like, it, like, tested their. Their. Their ability to, like, suppress pain and suppress panic and just stay, you know, keep calm, which is a big thing with them.

[Ellen]

Very Jedi, like.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Which is where that whole, like, fear is the mind killer things comes from.

[Craig]

Like, what is that?

[Ellen]

Can you. Okay, having gone through Dune now and create. Getting a new understanding of a bunch of Internet memes, like, what have you learned that you didn't know before?

[Andrew]

I learned the fear is the mind killer comes from Dune.

[Ellen]

What is.

[Andrew]

It just means if you. If you are afraid, it's gonna keep you from doing other stuff. So calm. Calm it down.

[Ellen]

Interesting.

[Andrew]

Take it down.

[Ellen]

Take it down a notch. All right. Is there anything else, Any other memes that you learned, or is that it? I know there's lots of sand worms, right? That's a big.

[Andrew]

Yeah, there are a lot of sand worms in there. Like, I don't know. They're kind of. They're monsters. But they're also necessary because they, like, make the spice.

[Ellen]

Okay. It's part of the ecology. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And, like, the Freeman ride them. Like, they're still kind of wild animals, but the Freeman ride them and. And, like, respect them because they understand that. That the worms make the spice.

[Ellen]

They are the buffalo.

[Andrew]

Yeah, basically.

[Ellen]

All right.

[Andrew]

And so when. When Paul is, like, challenging the Emperor, like, he knows about the worms and that they make the spice, and he also knows that they die when they're exposed to water. And so he's like, well, I control these worms because I can kill them and make there be no more spice.

[Ellen]

Oh, no.

[Andrew]

So you have to listen to me.

[Craig]

Oh, no.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

As far as, like, memes and stuff, I don't know. You just. You once. Once you read the book, just stuff pops out at you from all over the place.

[Ellen]

Okay, now, before we move into the. The plot itself, I do want to. And this is something that I always kind of.

[Andrew]

I think we're past the plot now.

[Ellen]

Well, no, but into, like, the other stuff we wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about something that I always think about when I'm reading science fiction, especially science fiction that's, you know, 20 or 30 or even older. Is there stuff that's in this book that came out of Frank Herbert's? Like, this could be the future mind that we have now, or things that we have now render completely irrelevant. Does that make sense? Like, in a post Internet.

[Andrew]

Again.

[Ellen]

Okay, so like, science fiction maybe 40 or 50 years ago, when they're talking about robotics and they're talking about artificial intelligence and stuff. Like, the Internet wasn't a thing and all of the technology that's come out of it vis a vis smartphones and, you know, all that kind of futuristic stuff that we have now, save jetpacks. Like, is there anything in the book that feels weird through that lens? Because that's one of the things that kind of trips me up. Trips me up with some science fiction.

[Andrew]

I think one of the kind of smart things that Herbert does, whether whether this is actually intentional or not, is he moves so far into the future, and he also makes it so that society just does not have any of this artificial intelligence stuff or, like, computer stuff. So, you know, the. The roots of, like, the Internet and modern technology that would have been around in 1965, he kind of skirts around them by going way far in the future and also saying stuff like that was the cause of a big problem. And. Okay, you can't. People can't use that stuff anymore.

[Ellen]

So the world is very purposefully analog in a way.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like, there is machinery. Yeah. But it's. You don't have an idea of, like, machinery that can think for itself or, like, machinery that's networked with other machinery.

[Ellen]

Yeah. That doesn't exist.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like. Like there is technology. Like, there are nuclear weapons and stuff.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And there is. But, you know, there are also kind of international laws. Like, you know, the use of nuclear weapons against humans has been forbidden, obviously. Like, artificial intelligence has been forbidden.

[Ellen]

Now, it doesn't sound like it factors into this book at all. Do you get the sense of that later in the series, they deal with any of this robotic nonsense?

[Andrew]

From the limited amount of research I have done? No.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But again, like, I have not read any of the subsequent Dune books. And. Yeah, like, I know. I think the next one deals a lot with, like, Paul's rule and his, like, offspring and his. His sister, who factors into the. Into Dune in a very minor way that probably doesn't bear getting too far into.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And I think the third book deals with his. Paul's son.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And by then, enough time has passed that Dune is kind of no longer a desert planet. And, like, the terraforming and stuff has come to pass. But by the time you get by, like, that's as far as I go.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Like, I know there.

[Andrew]

There are more books out there and they cover more stuff.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Stuff.

[Andrew]

But it's just. It gets way too far removed from the first book, I think.

[Ellen]

I guess I didn't ask when you were talking about the Freeman. Are there Aliens in Dune? Or is it just all people?

[Andrew]

They're all humans.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

But the Freeman are like humans who are indigenous to Dune or at least

[Ellen]

ever since long ago.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. Like, they've been there for so long that they're uniquely adapted to survival there.

[Ellen]

Interesting. All right, that's always just because that can always have a huge effect on what the story is potentially trying to say. Because I think that's another part of science fiction world building. It works best when the worlds are kind of designed from the ground up with a particular thesis. Like, oh, things are interconnected in this way so that these are the only events that can transpire. So then I can tell a story that is about such and such, you know.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I think the larger. The largest theme that Dune probably has is probably one of like, environmentalism.

[Ellen]

Okay. In a. In what way?

[Andrew]

Well, just that terraforming. Dune is going to be something that requires effort from everybody, like concerted effort to conserve water and to use it wisely and to only use it, like, as directed.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And this is in a society where water is like the most valuable thing that there is. So there's this. There's this real. There's. You get a real sense of, you know, people have to make sacrifices so that things will be better later on.

[Ellen]

Oh, all right.

[Andrew]

And also, like, you know, respect for nature in like the Freeman's, respect for the sandworms and, you know, things like that.

[Ellen]

Being humbled by nature and whatnot. Yeah, right. Something that we are dealing with now on a regular basis. Thanks. Snow in late March.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I am all the time humbled by. When I moved to New Jersey, you know what I didn't worry about. You know what? I didn't think I would ever have to be worried about hurricanes. No, there's been hurricane every year I've lived here.

[Ellen]

I did tell you about that, that we occasionally get those out here on the East Coast.

[Andrew]

Secret hurricanes.

[Ellen]

Secret hurricanes. Yeah. Yeah, that's what. That's what the Hurricane Sandy was. It was a secret hurricane Andrew. No one heard about it.

[Andrew]

Nobody, like, nobody west of Philly even knows about sand.

[Craig]

No.

[Ellen]

No one's heard Chris Christie yelling about it for months since. Okay, but enough about hurricanes. What I think what I asked you earlier, before we got into the world building stuff, was did you find the book entertaining? Like, as a. As a story other than. Because that's the other dividing line. I think in a lot of science fiction it becomes very interesting. World building or it's like a really good plot. Sometimes books have Both, but they don't always.

[Andrew]

I thought I. I did enjoy the book, but there is one major structural thing that really kind of sapped the momentum for me. And so basically it's. It's divided up into chapters and before every chapter you'll get like a, like an excerpt or a verse or something from like an. In an in world text.

[Ellen]

Okay. That's a trope I'm familiar with of some kind.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. And it's from this text, it is very obvious from the outset that Paul lives through everything, that he wins and that he is emperor.

[Ellen]

Okay. All right, so.

[Andrew]

And I mean, there are other things too, but basically these verses kind of serve as a setup and as foreshadowing for the text that follows in a lot of ways.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Which it should.

[Ellen]

Yeah. Okay.

[Andrew]

And I don't know, like, I found that that kind of kind of stifled the suspense, like I could. And this is something that maybe I want to talk about a little bit more later. I think I would have liked this book more if I'd come to it as a teenager, of course, but like reading it now, like, it's. I read these verses and I can figure out pretty easily what they're referring to and what is gonna happen.

[Ellen]

So you're having the experience of reading them and being like, oh, what does that mean? I can't imagine what that could possibly. And I'm kind of mocking 13 year old Andrew at this moment, which I don't mean to be, but like, you generally would be wondering what that's about and excited for the book to then follow up on it.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I think that's the idea. And I was talking to. To my fiance about this the other day is. I was saying, you know, I didn't think that. I didn't think that that served the story particularly well. And she was saying, well, you know, sometimes when you, when you read these little snippets of things, that makes you more interested in figuring out, you know, how it happened now that you know what happened.

[Ellen]

Yeah, there's. It's the question of dramatic irony. Right. And working in a field in theater where we produce a lot of things that people already know. Like, it's funny to take like Shakespeare plays into schools because not all of them know the end of Romeo and Juliet.

[Craig]

Like what?

[Ellen]

Or like the fate of certain characters they're in, you know, Whereas if you already know that play, you get a very different experience. Or Greek tragedy is all about you knowing the story ahead of time and then being reminded of that story along the way. So that can be very purposeful and depending on the story, can be very effective. But it's not usually adventure stories where that's, like, a thing that happens. Is that what the bulk of what Paul's up to feels like?

[Andrew]

It feels kind of. It's kind of adventure y. And simultaneously kind of. I guess the closest word I can think of is, like, biblical. Yeah.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

I guess because there's so many, like, messianic overtones and.

[Ellen]

Well, that's it. Well, that's another.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

He's.

[Andrew]

He is sort of almost kind of supernatural in a way, because he has a. He has a certain, like, prescience. Like, he can. He can kind of see. He can't see the future, but he can see, like, many possible futures.

[Ellen]

Oh.

[Andrew]

And he can kind of see how the present. How actions taken in the present can have, like, a million different effects in the future.

[Craig]

Useful.

[Ellen]

Useful.

[Andrew]

So I guess you never really. I never really get the sense that

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

he

[Andrew]

struggles very much.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

In.

[Andrew]

In the sense that you might in an adventure story. Like, if you take Lord of the Rings, for example, like, that whole book is about, like, hardship and struggling and fighting against improbable odds or fighting against

[Ellen]

temptation also a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Whereas in. Whereas in Dune, the whole time, like, between the. Between, like, the excerpts that foreshadow what's going to happen and, like, Paul's able ability to. To see the future and, you know, in a limited way, you almost get the idea sometimes that he's just kind of connecting the dots, like he's doing. He's doing the things that he has to do because he knows that he has to do them. And he doesn't always know how they're gonna turn out, but the reader always

[Ellen]

knows is there along the way, palpable danger to potentially, like, other people he cares about or something like that. Because I'm trying to think of other similar stories where there's, like, a hero kind of Messiah character. I'm thinking of the Matrix. Right.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Ellen]

Where, like, I don't think I would ever assume watching the Matrix for the first time that Keanu Reeves is actually gonna, like, die along the way or, you know, some. He's gonna make it because he's the main character. That's probably what's gonna happen. But along the way, they do a decent job in that movie at least, of making you worry about the people around him. And.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And you do. You do do that a bit in Dune. Like, you. You worry about. I mean, you know, that his. That Paul's dad is gonna die, like, pretty, pretty early. You know, he's gonna be betrayed. But it doesn't. It doesn't stop you from, like, wanting. And I, I do this with stuff that I've already seen before, too, that when I know something bad is going to happen to a character, I'm like, you know, maybe it might be different this time. He might be able to get out of it.

[Ellen]

I guess those are good characters.

[Andrew]

Even though I know that's not gonna happen, like, you know, I want it to happen. I don't know if that's something that you can.

[Ellen]

This time the coyote won't look down and fall after he runs.

[Andrew]

Yeah, like, dude, you've done this before. Just figure it out and.

[Craig]

But what are those.

[Ellen]

Do those snippets at the beginnings of chapters take this back a little bit? Is that part of the. From what I read, like, the biographical bent of. Is, like, the novel supposed to. How is it told? Like, who's the narrator? Is that ever explained?

[Andrew]

There's no one narrator. Most of it. I think most of it kind of takes place in. In rooms. Like, imagine just a camera set up in a room. And like, you. And you jump back at, like, you'll be. You'll be in Paul's head listening to what he thinks, and then in Jessica's head listening to what he thinks and then, like, in Baron Harkonnen's head listening to what he thinks. But it jumps around very seamlessly. Like, it's not. It's not kind of a Game of Thrones or Time style thing where every. Where every time you're reading something like it is from one character's viewpoint.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Yeah. So it jumps around a lot. Like, there's no narrator there, but. But I guess there is. Like, you are where the reader is where they need to be, like, when they need to be there.

[Ellen]

Does that make sense? Yeah, no, that makes total sense. But save the. Do you like the world of Dune if maybe you found the execution of its story less riveting as it might otherwise have been?

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'm kind of. I'm kind of considering continuing reading the next couple anyway, just. Just to see what happens with Paul and, like, what happens with the planet. Like, even though I know from my research for this book, kind of a very general, broad outline of the next couple books, like, you know, I'm not gonna say I'm never gonna do this. I do think like this better 10 or 10 or 12 years ago, but

[Ellen]

is there anything other than that, that one example that you can Think of,

[Craig]

of why you would have liked it

[Ellen]

longer ago because that's something that comes up I think with a lot of these, with like Star wars and Star Trek that a lot of us got into when we were in middle or high school and we are still fascinated by or at least pay homage to whenever a new movie comes out kind of thing.

[Andrew]

Yeah. I mean I, I think it's because the best science fiction stuff, like take Star wars and Star Trek. Well, take like the best of each franchise.

[Ellen]

Okay.

[Andrew]

When you're a kid you like it. Cuz spaceships.

[Ellen]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And when you're an adult, you like it because it's telling human stories or like it's making, especially in Star Trek, it's making like a statement on the wider human condition. Yep, yep. Or like commenting on something, society or something. So I mean in that respect Dune kind of hits those, hits those marks. I think the kids will, or like teenagers or you know, whatever age people come to this book at will appreciate kind of the adventure elements and kind of the mystical elements a little more than I did. And, and then like as, as they grow up they'll, they'll appreciate like the environmentalism and like the, the. And they'll be able to appreciate like the way that Herbert has kind of made, you know, the Freeman and like crafted their way of life around the resource that they need.

[Ellen]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So I guess like reading it now, I miss out on part of that equation.

[Ellen]

It almost feels like you're rereading it without having read it the first time.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Like I don't, I don't have it's, it's like reading it but like I don't have the nostalgia for.

[Ellen]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Story or the character which I think a lot of people.

[Ellen]

Yeah. Which I feel like a lot of these universes have. You know, what's drawing me into something newer. Like Game of Thrones is all these wonderful characters but like the world building stuff is all stuff I read in like my teens or earlier. Like just kind of places that were very interesting to go and think about and escapist and yada, yada, yada. And then if you're gonna get anything deeper out of it, you should be a bit more of adult. And it's probably when you're rereading it later. I don't know. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I think that's why I still like Lord of the Rings so much is. It's not like it's a, it's. I still like it a lot and I think it's a pretty good book. I mean, there are pretty big holes, you know, why. Why don't the eagles just fly them there? But both because I liked it when I was a kid and because I, you know, every time I read it, I kind of noticed something new about it. Yeah, I still like it. And so I'm kind of doing that with Dune, except without the part where I'm nostalgic about it from. From.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Interesting.

[Ellen]

Yeah. All right, well, I think that wraps this up.

[Andrew]

Yeah, I think that's where I am. And I think I got through all the names. I think I pronounced them mostly okay.

[Ellen]

And I think we avoided probably a whole bunch of other names that you didn't want to pronounce, right?

[Andrew]

Oh, yeah, man. You get into a bunch of names if you want.

[Craig]

Thanks, Andrew and Craig. Great job, guys.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, nice work. I know you guys are trying your best and I respect that.

[Craig]

Really hopped up on that spice. I can believe it.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

You didn't know that you were gonna be at the helm of a medium famous book podcast when you were doing that?

[Craig]

I definitely didn't. You can hear it in my voice.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Anyway, if you have. You, the listener, have thoughts about Dune that you'd like to share with us. If you're trying to make us watch these ding dang movies, send us an email overdupodmail.com or hit us up on social media at overdue pod. Our theme song is composed by Nick Lauren. Just Andrew. If folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Overdue Podcast.com is the Internet website now as then you can go there and find the current episodes of the show and the older ones and the schedule for the month. I let Craig tell you the next couple of annotated editions here in a second. Something we didn't have back in episode eight. Is that all that Patreon? We got patreon.com overdue pod you can give us a little bit of money. You can get access to our Discord server. You get Dusty bookshelves, our newsletter. You get ad free feed.

[Craig]

I don't know why you just took up residence in the Gem Saloon there.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

We don't have a lot that's free gratis over at the old Patreon. But patreon.com overdue pod we got a fun community. People talking about Garfield, people talking about Twilight. It's just all in there. Patreon.com overduepod Craig, what are we talking about next week?

[Craig]

Next week we're talking about Frankenstein or a modern Prometheus by Mary Shelley. And after that we'll be talking about the strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. By checks, notes, Robert Louis Stevenson.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Right?

[Craig]

Is that who wrote that?

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Ellen]

Great.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Can I get some strange cases?

[Craig]

Yeah, I'm going to put them down because I'm at the airport and I found strange cases. That's what the voice says.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

If you see something, say something. You find strange cases at the airport. Okay, everybody, thank you for listening to us. And us now here in 2020 sticks. And us back then in 2013. Boy, I'm glad those guys didn't have to know all the stuff that I know now. Yeah, I think that's nice for them. Anyway, till we see you next time, please try to be happy. That was a Headgum podcast.

[Andrew]

Hi, I am Mandy Moore.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Sterling K. Brown.

[Craig]

And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast that Was Us now on Head Gum.

[Andrew]

Each episode, we're gonna go into a

[Ad Host]

deep dive from our show.

[Craig]

This is Us.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

That's right.

[Craig]

We're gonna go episode by episode.

[Ad Host]

We're also gonna pepper in episodes with

[Andrew]

different guest stars and writers and casting directors.

[Craig]

Are we gonna cry? Yes, a little bit. Are we gonna laugh a lot?

[Ellen]

A whole lot.

[Craig]

That's what I'm hoping. Man.

[Andrew (alternate or same Andrew)]

Listen to. That Was us on your favorite podcast app. Or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify. New episodes every Tuesday.