Stop! Homer Time: The Iliad - Chatting with Emily Wilson

Summary

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Overdue Podcast: "Stop! Homer Time: The Iliad – Chatting with Emily Wilson"

Host: Craig & Andrew
Guest: Emily Wilson
Date: July 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special unlocked episode of Overdue, hosts Craig and Andrew sit down with renowned classicist and translator Emily Wilson to discuss her celebrated new translation of Homer’s Iliad. The conversation delves into her approach to translating the epic, the enduring complexities of the poem’s characters and conflicts, and what makes the Iliad so radically different and resonant compared to the Odyssey. Wilson also reads a passage and provides insights into the cultural and historical context behind Homeric storytelling. The episode is a lively, insightful look both at ancient epic and the translator’s craft.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emily Wilson’s Relationship with Homer & the Iliad

• Long Engagement with the Text: Wilson discusses having read and taught the Iliad and Odyssey for decades, which influenced her translation both positively and with new challenges.

  “I’ve had a long relationship with both the Homeric poems...I certainly knew certain sections of the poem much, much better than others…” (08:21)

• Famous vs. Overlooked Passages: She gained new appreciation for lesser-known sections, notably the battle sequences in books 10–15 and book 10’s night raid, which she now sees as essential to the poem’s architecture.

  “I felt in general that I just had a new appreciation for the parts that are less famous as well as for the parts that are famous.” (10:08)

2. Approach to Translation

• Process: Wilson avoided reading other translations to maintain originality, focusing instead on intense engagement with the Greek while experimenting with line length and meter.

  “...the solution isn’t to look at some other wheels. You know, if I’m trying to invent something else.” (07:00)

• Meter Choice: She returned to iambic pentameter for musicality, but expanded the line count from the original to fully capture the Greek's nuance.

  “I ended up coming back to iambic pentameter...with the Iliad, I ended up using more lines than the original does, because I just felt I needed more lines to get everything across that I wanted to get across...” (07:00)

• Public Engagement: Wilson has become markedly open about her process post-Odyssey, sharing drafts and commentary on social media to educate readers about translation’s complexities.

  “...there was an opportunity to...do a little bit of public education...It’s not like there’s a right answer to this is how you must do it...” (13:46)

3. Reception and Comparison to the Odyssey

• Audience Expectation: Wilson describes navigating the heightened anticipation and pressure after her Odyssey translation, noting the Iliad's darker, more challenging content.

  “...the Iliad itself teaches you the dangers of being on a constant quest for fame and glory.” (11:42)

• Distinct Tone & Humor: While the Odyssey is whimsical and varied, the Iliad is unrelentingly intense, focused on war and mortality, but does show “black comedy” and moments of levity.

  “...the Odyssey, a lot of it is people killing each other. It’s dark. You know, I can’t change that. But I knew that people who love the Odyssey wouldn’t necessarily...feel quite the same way about the Iliad.” (12:37)

4. Translation Challenges & Gendered Language

• Loaded Terms in Translations: Craig & Andrew raise how earlier English translations sometimes use words with contemporary baggage—Wilson critiques the inaccuracy when Helen is made to condemn herself as a “slut” rather than the Greek’s “dog-faced”:

  “...they don’t translate the metaphor, which is she’s saying specifically she’s dog faced. And that’s an insult term that’s used also of Achilles to Agamemnon.” (15:25)

5. Scope and Focus of the Iliad

• What the Iliad Leaves Out: Craig asks why the poem doesn’t narrate the entirety of the Trojan War or famous stories like the Trojan Horse.
• Wilson’s Response: Homer’s audience knew the broader myth; the Iliad is a “vertical slice” focusing on intra-Greek strife, emotions, and mortality, emphasizing the collapse and creation of bonds among men rather than a chronological war history.

  “It’s taking a very weird and peculiar approach to how do we tell the story of the Trojan War...It’s not a blow by blow account...yet it somehow includes it all.” (17:18, 26:46)

• Cultural Context: The poem reflects the emergent city-state culture in Greece, dramatizing the challenge of unrelated men learning to cooperate—or failing to do so.

  “...the Greek speakers are more and more aware of their neighbors to the east...melding with the incipient birth of the Greek city state, the polis...[it’s] the focus on the guys in the Greek encampment failing to get along together..." (20:41)

6. The Gods and Divine Society

• Contrast with the Odyssey: The Odyssey uses gods as catalysts, while the Iliad portrays Olympic society as a mirror (or parody) of human society with its own melodramatic internal disputes.

  “...the Odyssey is interested in how do different peoples...live, interact. But the Iliad is engaged with these three very, very different societies...and the society of Olympus.” (23:47)

• The Stakes Differ: On Olympus quarrels are high-drama but non-fatal; for mortals, the same passions mean death.

  “...the first four books in a way retell what should have happened at the very beginning. So we have a quarrel, but it’s not the quarrel of the goddesses, it’s a quarrel of two warriors…” (26:46)

7. Memorable Passages & Comedy

• Reading of the Catalog of Ships: Wilson reads a passage about Thamyris, the defeated poet, from Book 2, highlighting Homeric humor and how the text injects levity into otherwise grim proceedings (29:25).

  “Enraged, they mutilated him and robbed of godlike song and forced him to forget the lyre.” (Emily Wilson reading 29:25)

• Discussion of Levity: Andrew and Emily discuss how even amidst war and violence, the Iliad finds black comedy—through character insults or mythic asides.

  “...some of the insults are funny, too. I mean, some of them are very cruel, but they’re funny. Yeah, there’s a black comedy and, you know, even many of the deaths where the killer is mocking the person he’s killed...” (31:40)

8. Helen as a Character

• Helen’s Self-Deprecation: The hosts explore Helen’s oft-noted “dog-faced” self-description as a complex, possibly strategic posture:

  “...unless she expresses discomfort with her position, then...she’s going to be totally hated. Whereas by saying, I wish I wasn’t here, she’s able to make at least some powerful friends.” (35:11)

• Helen as Poet-Stand-In: Wilson notes Helen’s unique ability to narrate and her place as a quasi-poetic figure within the story.

  “Helen’s weaving is the only one which shows the Trojan War. So I think there were ways that, you know, Helen is particularly close. She’s like a poet figure.” (35:11)

9. Hector’s Role

• Central Tragedy: As the story shifts, Hector becomes its tragic heart, embodying the paradox of risking everything to protect, and by doing so, endangering what he loves.

  “...why is Hector taking these big risks? He’s taking them because he feels he has to, because otherwise he’s going to be shamed. The only way to continue in his essential role as the best warrior in Troy is to be the one who takes the most risk. But then that also means he’s taking the most risks for his city, even while defending his city.” (40:29)

10. Performance and New Works

• Stage Adaptation: Wilson reflects on Lisa Peterson’s contemporary adaptation of her Odyssey translation, staged as four refugee women reading the epic while in limbo—a moving exploration of exile and homecoming’s universal meanings.

  “She did this, I thought, really innovative thing of setting it in a contemporary refugee camp. And...while they’re killing time, they’re reading the Odyssey...How does the Odyssey present a story of migration and being lost and being homeless and coming home and what does family mean?” (43:12)

• Next Project: Wilson is at work on interlocking short stories that retell lesser-known Trojan War myths, extending Homer’s world in new narrative directions.

  “Right now, I’m doing a totally different kind of project...a fictional retelling of Trojan War myths...filling in the bits that are not central in the Iliad and trying to make it into a series of interlocked short stories.” (44:45)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On avoiding previous translations:

  “If I’m trying to invent something else...I just felt I had to just keep on plowing away at trying out different things and rereading and rereading and rereading the Greek...” (07:00 – Emily Wilson)

• On social media and public engagement:

  “Maybe this is a way that I could use [the internet] for good by trying to show that close reading is important and languages are not the same and don’t build the world differently syntactically or linguistically...” (13:46 – Emily Wilson)

• On translating offensive language:

  “...she’s saying specifically she’s dog faced. And that’s an insult term that’s used also of Achilles to Agamemnon. And of course those same translators don’t use, don’t say, you know, you’re such a slut.” (15:25 – Emily Wilson)

• On what’s left out of the Iliad:

  “...the Iliad very deliberately excludes almost everything you would expect.” (19:50 – Emily Wilson)

• On the Homeric gods:

  “...the stakes on Olympus are they could tie each other up...but they can't die. So it’s a very different kind [of conflict].” (25:43 – Emily Wilson)

• On Hector’s central tragedy:

  “The only way to continue in his essential role as the best warrior in Troy is to be the one who takes the most risk. But then that also means he’s taking the most risks for his city, even while defending his city.” (40:29 – Emily Wilson)

• On the humor in the Iliad:

  “Some of the insults are funny, too...There’s a black comedy and, you know, even many of the deaths where the killer is mocking the person he’s killed, it can be funny as well as terrible.” (31:40 – Emily Wilson)

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Key Timestamps

• [05:02] – Introduction to Emily Wilson’s academic background
• [07:00] – On process and resisting other translations
• [11:42] – On fame and expectation after the Odyssey
• [15:25] – Discussion of loaded gender language and translation choices
• [17:18] – Why the Iliad doesn’t tell the whole Trojan War
• [20:41] – Greek city-state culture and cooperation as thematic context
• [23:47] – Contrast in portrayal of gods in the Iliad and Odyssey
• [29:25] – Live reading from the Catalog of Ships
• [35:11] – Helen’s role, voice, and “dog-faced” reference
• [40:29] – Hector’s arc and tragic calculus
• [43:12] – On the stage adaptation of the Odyssey
• [44:45] – Wilson’s upcoming project: interconnected Trojan War stories

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Tone & Takeaways

Emily Wilson’s tone is scholarly yet engaging, funny and relatable as she illuminates both the richness of Homeric storytelling and the intricacies of translation. The episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about why these ancient poems continue to captivate, and how translation choices deeply shape our contemporary relationship to the past.

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Find Emily Wilson’s work and her new Iliad at emilyrcwilson.com.

Transcript

[Emily Wilson]

This is a Headgun podcast.

[Craig]

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[Andrew]

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[Craig]

It's.

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Emily Wilson]

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[Craig]

With the recent release of Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey and buzz around Emily Wilson's translation of Homer, we thought we would unlock this special Stop Homer Time episode. Originally released to Patreon supporters in early 2024. It's part of our Iliad series where we got to speak with Emily Wilson. Enjoy. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Stop Homer Time. Sort of.

[Emily Wilson]

Soon.

[Craig]

It'll start soon.

[Andrew]

It'll start soon.

[Craig]

Andrew. This is a special episode of Craig, is it?

[Andrew]

I'm just making sure we said our names. We each, each one of us has had our name said now.

[Craig]

Well, you know, they'll hear it after the I am a mysterious man introducing a podcast made by Craig and Andrew. Figure out which one I am give

[Andrew]

the answer might surprise you.

[Craig]

I'm Craig.

[Andrew]

I'm Andrew. This is stopovertime, our podcast about Emily Wilson's translation of the Iliad. And this time we have, I don't know, it's not like a week or a month, this unit of time that we're existing in right now. We've got something special for you all.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's Emily Wilson came back to talk to us again. She did it once and then she, knowing that, decided to come back and do it again, which is really gracious of her.

[Craig]

Yeah. And we talked to her pretty early in our read of her translation of the Iliad. So what you're going to hear is a conversation where we talk mostly about just kind of her approach to the book, as well as some riffing on books one through four. And, you know, a little bit, you know, we're each somewhat familiar with the poem so we can kind of reference later stuff, but we really dove into the character relationships that get set up at the beginning of the book and what she had to say about translating it versus other stuff.

[Emily Wilson]

Yes.

[Andrew]

So as we did this also with the Odyssey when we read it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

She was super insightful and funny. This time. She read a passage from the poem

[Craig]

for us that was cool.

[Andrew]

We enjoyed. I mean, we enjoyed both reading the passage and talking about it and then hearing her read it with all the pronunciation and the meter all intact and non mangled.

[Craig]

Pretty good.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So I hope you dig it.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So Emily Wilson is joining us today. She is the professor of Classical Studies at the University of Pennsylvania, holding the College for women class of 1963. Professor in the Humanities, Wilson holds degrees in Classics and Renaissance English lit from Oxford University and a PhD in Classics and Comparative Literature from Yale. She's been named a Fellow of the American Academy in Rome in Renaissance and Early modern scholarship, a MacArthur fellow, a Guggenheim fellow, and in 2017, she released her renowned translation of Homer's Odyssey. Which we covered on our show. And we're honored to welcome her back to talk about Homer's other poem, the Iliad. Dr. Wilson, welcome.

[Emily Wilson]

Thank you for having me again. It's great to be back.

[Craig]

As I was writing that I was what I think we've talked about them. Are there other poems by the collective known as Homer that we should be thinking about when we're, you know, talking about him? Them?

[Andrew]

They.

[Emily Wilson]

Well, so back in the day, there's a. The Battle of the Mice and Frogs, which is certainly not from the same era as the Iliad and the Odyssey. It's a sort of spoof on Homeric verse, which was thought to be genuine, genuine Homeric. And in fact, it was translated into vernacular languages all across Europe earlier than the Iliad of the Odyssey. In many. In many national traditions, it was very popular because, of course, it's a much shorter, quicker read than the Iliad, and it's. And it's funny and it's less depressing because it's only, you know, mice and frogs who die.

[Craig]

So we're excited to revisit the Iliad. When we talked to you last time, you were talking about how you avoided other translations when you were working on the Odyssey. Did you use that same process this time, and did that help you? How did you get past that stuck phase, which you've talked about since, and you were certainly in when we spoke to you years ago?

[Emily Wilson]

Yes, the stuck phase lasted a while, and I didn't feel that reading other translations was going to get me out of it, because the solution, if you want to do something different from what's been done before, which there's no point in reinventing the wheel, then the solution isn't to look at some other wheels. You know, if I'm trying to invent something else. So I just felt I had to just keep on plowing away at trying out different things and rereading and rereading and rereading the Greek and then experimenting with experimenting with different line lengths and different approaches to how to do it. I ended up coming back to iambic pentameter as I felt the only satisfactory way of evoking the metricality and musicality of the original. But with the Iliad, Iamba ended up using more lines than I, than the original does, because I just felt I needed more lines to get everything across that I wanted to get across that's there in the Greek.

[Andrew]

You talked about this a little bit in your intro and translator's note, which we've also read and talked About a bit. You've had a very long relationship with this poem, and I wonder where that made the translation, like, tougher to do, where it made it easier for you to do. Like, what sections of it were you the most excited to dig into? And what was. Was there anything that was a bit of.

[Craig]

A.

[Andrew]

Bit of a slog?

[Emily Wilson]

I mean, I've had a long relationship with both the Homeric poems. I mean, I've been reading them, you know, for decades and teaching them both in Greek and in translation and, you know, all studying them, rereading them, all of that. I mean, I. I certainly knew certain sections of the poem much, much better than others because there were certain sections that I sort of would always go back to, and the famous passages that I've read that I had already, you know, reverted to. And if I was teaching a class where we're just going to read certain sections of the Iliad, maybe that's going to be book nine. Maybe that's going to be book 24 or book 22 or book 18 with these famous highlight purple passages. Maybe it's going to be Hector and Andromache in book six. It probably isn't going to be book seven with the second duel. You know, there are certain sections of the middle of the poem that very often get skipped when people read an abridged version. And I sort of didn't quite know how am I going to make. I keep the reader's attention throughout that intense sequence of fighting, fighting, fighting, and some more fighting. And it has to continue to be really intense and engaging, even though Achilles isn't there and all the plot points that you're expecting are not going to be there, and yet you still have to keep on caring. So I knew that that was going to be a challenge. And I mean, I love those sections in a way. I. The more I work on them and the more I think, and I wish I could do an anthology version that would just be the middle of the Iliad and wouldn't have any Achilles at all, kind of co.

[Craig]

Were there passages that you. Since you mentioned having taught, you know, excerpts or whatever, were there passages that you were less familiar with that you were like, oh, wow, I'm glad. You know, are there examples that you would point to? You're like, oh, I definitely. I hadn't thought about that one. The way that I'm thinking about it now that I approach the full translation.

[Emily Wilson]

I mean, obviously I'd read the whole thing multiple times, but I guess, I mean, I had a new appreciation. I mean, I Said already I had a new appreciation for the great battle sequence of books 11 through 15, which is Hector pushing towards the Greek ships and more and more of the Greek leaders getting wounded and fighting, fighting, fighting. I also have a new appreciation for book 10, which people sometimes say maybe this was a later introduction into the Iliad. It's the night raid sequence with Odysseus and Diomedes sneaking towards the Trojan camp. And it's a very brutal and bloodthirsty book. And I think, I think it's wonderful and I think it actually does, you know, whether. Whatever we think about composition, I think it works really well as a centerpiece for the, for the poem. And I felt in general that I just had a new appreciation for the parts that are less famous as well as for the parts that are famous.

[Andrew]

So, okay, correct me if I'm wrong. My impression of what happened with the Odyssey when he translated it is that it was kind of a word of mouth success that sort of built over time. But you're coming into your Iliad translation with this big built in audience that's like really excited for you to be translating more things. How did the response to the Odyssey translation, like, inform your translation of the Iliad? Like, how has it been different this time around now that you've got people waiting for you to drop new things?

[Craig]

Yes.

[Emily Wilson]

I mean, I felt in a way I just have to ignore all of that. I mean, there's no. I mean, the Iliad itself teaches you the dangers of being on a constant quest for fame and glory. I can't be living like that because it's too much, it's too intense. I just have to hide in my room in Philadelphia and do my thing or go to the library and do my thing and ignore the possibilities of fame and shame and, you know, reputation. Suddenly I was aware that the reception was going to be different because, of course, nobody had heard of me before the Iliad came, before the Odyssey came. And when the Iliad came out, then there was an expectation, there was a built in audience. I was also aware that there might be people who would be disappointed. And, you know, I thought, there's nothing I can do about that because there are ways that the Iliad is darker and longer and in some ways more difficult and more depressing than the Odyssey. And there's a sort of whimsicality and humor that's there in the Odyssey. And I think there is humor in the Iliad, but it's not nearly as sort of. You're always in a different place and meeting new people. And it's always a lot of. It's quite fun in an obvious way, whereas the Iliad, a lot of it is people killing each other. It's dark. You know, I can't change that. But I knew that people who love the Odyssey wouldn't necessarily, you know, feel quite the same way about the Iliad.

[Craig]

I've appreciated your candor about your like as much as you can publicly on the Internet about your process. You know, whether it's tweet threads comparing different quotes or your YouTube readings of different selections, both the Greek and you're, like, in progress translation, which I can't. I can't even imagine doing that. Like, sharing something that important. Right. How much of that was spurred because you knew you had an audience from the Odyssey, and how much of that is just you and your process and kind of working with other people who are familiar with the poem as you do your work in your room in Philadelphia?

[Emily Wilson]

A lot of it was because I could see that there was a big audience for the Odyssey, and there was a lot of engagement with the Odyssey translation. And I also felt that some of the discourse about it was not quite getting it right about what translation is and multiple sets of choices that go into that. So I felt there was an opportunity to, you know, do a little bit of public education of the general reader, of sort of showing this is not. It's not like there's a right answer to this is how you must do it. And there's only one way that you could translate this word or this line or this passage. And I. And I thought, you know, there's a lot of things that are terrible about social media and the Internet, but maybe this is a way that I could use it for good by trying to show that close reading is important and languages are not the same and don't build the world differently syntactically or linguistically. So, you know, I thought this would also be something that would be fun for me, which most of most of social media is not fun for me, but that might be a way of making it into a more interesting kind of conversation.

[Andrew]

Yeah, you did a piece in the New York Times, I think, where you took some chunks of a bunch of translations, including yours, and sort of highlighted differences. Something we talked about last time when we talked about the Odyssey was how active other translators had been in using words like sluts or whores, things that are kind of, like, loaded and have specific connotations that maybe didn't exist in the Greek. Was there anything like particular to the Iliad, like any spots in the Iliad translations, like the best known ones that you're familiar with where people were also doing this sort of thing.

[Emily Wilson]

Well, so I mean, I haven't done a whole sort of complete comparison, so I'm not sure how well I can answer that question. I mean, if the question is specifically about gendered words, I mean, I did a little comparison of different approaches to the way that Helen calls herself dog faced literally in the Iliad. And very often that, especially in the 20th century American translations, many of them have her say things like slut that I am, whore that I am, I'm a shameless whore. Those kinds of things which are not particularly accurate because they don't translate the metaphor, which is she's saying specifically she's dog faced. And that's an insult term that's used also of Achilles to Agamemnon. And of course those same translators don't use, don't say, you know, you're such a slut. Which I think would have actually been kind of good. But it also shows a sort of inconsistency in the approach to language, which

[Andrew]

obviously, you know, sure, there's a particular

[Emily Wilson]

cultural reason why translators might have gone with that.

[Andrew]

Definitely.

[Craig]

One of the things that, I guess turning to the poem and the story a bit more itself, one of the things that we were, you know, trying to talk our way through as we started our project with the Iliad is like, there's a whole bunch of stuff in the Trojan War that, you know, culturally we are just steeped in that is not in the poem. And was just wondering, can you help shed any light on why this is the vertical slice of the war that is the Homeric poem and why not the other things and maybe where we get some of those other things from?

[Emily Wilson]

Absolutely, yes. So we're steeped in all of that stuff. That stuff being things like the Trojan horse and the judgment of Paris and the quarrel between the goddesses Athena, Aphrodite and Hera, which is of course in the background sacrifice of Evgenia. So all of that stuff was even more in the culture in archaic Greece. And of course the Iliad and the Odyssey are based on a centuries long poetic storytelling tradition. So the Iliad and the Odyssey also are very sophisticated responses to that tradition which use the new technology of writing to create a monumental and highly original approach to this very, very long pre existing tradition which the audience of the original performances, if we can talk about such a thing, would have been expected to know all about that and be easily bored and you don't want the same old stuff. And it's taking a very weird and peculiar approach to how do we tell the story of the Trojan War? And we tell it in the case of the Iliad, not by framing it even as Trojans versus Greeks, but as Greeks versus Greeks, and having a new focus on emotions and on human mortality as the center of the story and on how do communities fall apart or how do communities. How can humans have any kind of connection to each other in this brief time that we're alive? And those themes are sort of explored in monumental length and intensity partly through the poet or composer or whoever it is that made this wonderful thing. Not totally setting aside the idea that you're going to do a blow by blow, let's start at the very beginning of the story with the plan of Zeus, and let's start with the birth of Achilles and Helen came from an egg. And let's go right back to the beginning and totally, you know, which in fact, later, like later in late antiquity, there were retellings of the Trojan War story by Darius and Dictys, which one of which presents itself as here's a Trojan War story by an eyewitness. I was actually there and I can tell you everything that happened. There were lots of summaries of Trojan War mater material in terms of sort of later reception. Virgil's Aeneid, book two has an account of the fall of Troy and the Trojan horse, which is how a lot of later literary sources got it through Virgil rather than through Homer. But it doesn't come in the Iliad. And the Iliad very deliberately excludes almost everything you would expect.

[Andrew]

So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I think you're saying is it's like how not every Batman movie needs to include a part where he becomes Batman, because we already know how he became Batman.

[Emily Wilson]

We know that stuff. Yes, we totally know that stuff. Oh, else you mean if you're going to include it, then you have to do it in a. In a funny way, the way the spider verse movies do.

[Craig]

Well, yeah, it's so fascinating to hear the Iliad described as kind of like a revolutionary storytelling, you know, like a mother, a byproduct of invention. We talked about the Odyssey as being this, you know, poem of homecoming. And you mentioned the kind of cultural moment of Greeks going out into the world or, you know, what is the cultural moment that births this, you know, what is the Iliad in conversation with, when people are listening to it at the time.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think it's partly about the. I mean, like the Odyssey, it's about the expanding Mediterranean world. The Greek speakers are more and more aware of their neighbors to the east. And this is a story, of course, of interaction between Greek speakers and their neighbors in the east. And it's also a story that really melds with the incipient birth of the Greek city state, the polis. So Greek communities in the seventh century were getting larger and larger and there was this ongoing sociopolitical problem of how can men who are not related to each other get along together? Which is what you need in order to have a city, right? If you just have the old, old, old archaic model of an oikos, a household where it's one big guy and all these guys who are related to him, his dad, his cousins, they all live together and have other people who are related to them living together, that's fine. You get along with your people who are related to each other. And you might want to kill people who are not related to each other, no problem. But if you want more people to live together without killing each other, do you do that? So I think in a way, the focus on the guys in the Greek encampment failing to get along together and all these guys who come from different parts of the Greek speaking world and are trying to do a cooperative enterprise together, it's sort of framing that problem of what would cooperation look like? Would that mean we have to give up on the idea of excellence or skill or each of us wants to be the best and we all want to be extraordinary at something which is, you know, the, the Greek word aristea is used in the Iliad to describe massacre scenes. People that people want to be the best at killing people. But of course, that, that can be a problem if, as in the case of Achilles, his desire to be the best results in him wanting a huge number of his own side to die. Yeah.

[Craig]

Oh, go ahead.

[Emily Wilson]

No, no, go ahead. To sum up, that's a political problem.

[Andrew]

So, like we mentioned, we're just getting started in our sort of long read, close read of this. Something we've noticed kind of right off the bat is in the Odyssey, I mean, the gods are clearly everywhere. Like Athena in particular is everywhere. You get a bit of Poseidon too, because of Odysseus's feud with him. In the Iliad, you've got a lot of scenes, like directly on Olympus, gods are just kind of hanging out. Zeus and Hera have a Weird, terrible honeymooners type marriage to each other. Can you contrast the opposite, the approach that each story uses to talk about the way that the gods would be influencing everyday life or the lives of people in these stories?

[Emily Wilson]

Yes, absolutely. So the Odyssey, as you say, has a lot of appearances by Athena and then a lot of interactions. I mean, Odysseus spends his seven years shacked up with Calypso and his year with Circe. And so there are a lot of goddesses in different places, but we don't have nearly as much sort of in depth. What is society like among the gods? Whereas in the Iliad, I mean, this maybe relates to what I was saying before about the Iliad's interest in societies. The Odyssey is interested in how do different peoples all across the world live, interact. But the Iliad is engaged with these three very, very different societies. The city of Troy, the Greek encampment, and the society of Olympus. And I think the juxtaposition of those three societies is essential to the poem's world. And for me, as a translator, one of the most exciting things about working on the Iliad was just trying to make sure each of the divine characters feels fully distinct as a character. And you absolutely know where they're coming from emotionally. And you know, how much does Poseidon hate his brother and how does. How much does Hera hate her brother, who's also her husband? These terrible family relationships and family dynamics, and they seem so real, and yet they're also so much more powerful than human beings. I mean, I've already read the wonderful passage in book one, where Athena, where Achilles is on the point of killing Agamemnon and he gets grabbed by the hair by Athena and that stops him because the goddesses can intervene. And these moments of crucial human decision, something can change because a God was suddenly there.

[Craig]

It strikes me that Olympus is just a heightened version of what, I forget the Greek word for that, pre polis. That is just a bunch of related people hanging out in a house. And they have to get along. Maybe they fight, but there's no one else, right? It's just them.

[Emily Wilson]

No one else. It's just them. And also, the stakes are so much lower. I mean, the stakes on Olympus are they could tie each other up and like as the Olympians did with the Titans, right? They can restrain them underneath the earth or with golden chains, and that threat of you could be restrained in your action by another God that's constantly coming up, and yet they can't die. So it's. It's a very different Kind Book one is sort of features this juxtaposition of the quarrel of Achilles and Agamemnon. And as a result of that, many, many people will die and the quarrel of Hera and Zeus, which will result in many mortal deaths. But no, no gods, no gods are going to suffer as a result.

[Craig]

Yeah, we were, we were thinking about the opening of the poem and you're talking about the Greek encampment. And we've talked about it being kind of a vertical slice of the overall war. What have they been doing for nine years? Why is it nine years is a long time?

[Emily Wilson]

It really is a long time. I mean, I think this is part of what I was saying already about the poem's sort of virtuosity and both saying, we're going to tell a tiny, tiny bit of the Trojan war story. This Neilia takes place over only a month and a half. And that's not a ten year war, it's not a blow by blow account. And it doesn't tell you the prehistory. It doesn't tell you anything about. We don't start at the beginning, we don't end at the end, and yet it somehow includes it all. And it does it through this sort of, I think, masterful way of storytelling, such that the first four books in a way retell what should have happened at the very beginning. So we have a quarrel, but it's not the quarrel of the goddesses, it's a quarrel of two warriors. We have the gathering of the ships in book two, but it's not happening where it should have done, which is right at the start at Aul, where all the Greek ships gathered at Aulis. But instead we're having the list, you know, in year nine or at the start of year ten. And then we have Paris and Helen get together and it's. And yet it's not happening for the first time, but it's as if it's the first time, so. And Priam seems to act like he's never seen any of these guys before. What was that? Which again, it's like. It's as if everything is starting for the first time in the Iliad. Even though from the actual story point of view makes zero sense, it sort of allows the poem to present itself as this is both a teeny, tiny slice of the whole story, and yet it's the whole thing. You're getting the whole, you know, you're seeing a world in a grain of sand.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's really interesting because it's like simultaneously it's the beginning of a thing. But also they've been there for so long that their ships are rotting into the ocean.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Emily Wilson]

So I think you can also see that there's a whole extra level of emotional intensity because they're all totally sick of it before it even begins. Yeah.

[Craig]

So we did want to talk about the catalog of ships. Andrew had a section in the catalog of ships that really struck him.

[Andrew]

Well, it goes to like you talked about how this poem is often less overtly funny or light than the Odyssey is in business. What I'm struck by in the, in the translation so far is the little moments of levity we get right in the. Right in the middle of something else happening. So this was, this is book two. I have it as line starts at five ninety a section where somebody. We hear a story about somebody who angered the museum.

[Craig]

We would be honored if you would. If you would read this passage so that we can kind of talk about it. But.

[Emily Wilson]

So those from Pylos, beautiful Erin Thaeron four of the Alpheus and well built ip. And those who came from Cyparisius, Amphigunea, Tillius and Helus and Dorion. The place the Muses met Thracian Thamyris and then stopped his singing when he had traveled from Icalia to visit Eurytus. Thamyris boasted that he can even win against the Muses if they. The daughters of the high king Zeus, the God who bears the Aegis, sang against him. Enraged, they mutilated him and robbed of God like song, robbed him of godlike song and forced him to forget the lyre. These pylians were led by Nestor, Diurenian, Horse Lord. 90 hollow ships came with him.

[Andrew]

And maybe, maybe it is just me. I just think it's so funny that in the middle of this big section, you know, the mustering of troops, you get this little story about something completely unrelated. And especially if you think of it as, you know, the Muses are singing through the poet and they just wanted to tell you real quick this story about a time where somebody made them mad so they beat him up and made him forget how to play the guitar.

[Emily Wilson]

Yes. Also the catalog of ships begins with the poet doing this very, very virtuosic invocation to the Muses and saying I would need 10 tongues, a mouth of bronze to sing this whole catalogue. And so I think one can also read that passage about Thamyrius as sort of. And also remember that it's, it's telling about Nestor's birthplace. And Nestor is the one who goes on the longest in the. In the council meetings. So he's the blabbermouth. And I think it's sort of. It's a way of sort of showing that, yes, there may be other storytellers and poets around, but none. You're getting it right from the, you know, muse's mouth with this one. The whole catalogue is better than the Myris song.

[Craig]

That's amazing. That's a great read.

[Andrew]

But, yeah, like, I think to me, that's the way the Iliad is funny, is it takes its little. You know, it introduces its little bits of levity as it can, instead of kind of having being able to rely on changes of scenery, new characters. Like you mentioned with the Odyssey.

[Emily Wilson]

Right. I mean, I think some of the insults are funny, too. I mean, some of them are very cruel, but they're funny. Yeah, there's a black comedy and, you know, even many of the deaths where the killer is mocking the person he's killed, it can be funny as well as terrible.

[Andrew]

Craig, what was the one that you liked? The Mindless mind.

[Craig]

The mindless mind of Pandarus.

[Emily Wilson]

Yes, exactly. Yes.

[Craig]

Masterful work, Emily. Unbelievable.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, the Greek is playing around with that, too. So, I mean, whoever the poet is, is mocking poor Pandarus for screwing up and starting the whole war again.

[Craig]

Just real quick, team. In that opening scene, we talked about the Greeks fighting each other, and it kind of being this opening conflict that kind of takes the place of maybe the start of the war itself. Team Achilles or team Agamemnon.

[Emily Wilson]

I mean, the only safe answer is Team Apollo, right? You gotta be careful with that stuff because the mistake that Agamemnon makes is underestimating the relationship that Achilles might have with the gods. And he also makes this. He makes the same mistake repeatedly, right? He makes the mistake of thinking you can take a priest's daughter and get away with it. And in fact, you know, priest daughter is going to have a hotline to hire a higher power even than Agamemnon. And similarly insulting someone who's just annoying, who's a fellow mortal, you could get away with that. But if he's the son of a sea goddess, you've got to be more careful.

[Craig]

You know, you don't bully the principal's kid on the playground. You know, like, they can go make a call. You're gonna get in trouble.

[Emily Wilson]

Right? And also, I mean, clearly part of the problem is that he does it so publicly, right? I mean, that he humiliates Achilles very, very publicly. He could have, you know, quietly, on the down low, taken one of his women. But he doesn't do that. And instead, of course he has motives for that because he wants to always look like the big GS. And this also goes sort of fundamental structural problem, which is that these Greek leaders are all gathered together from all different parts of the Greek speaking world, in each of which they are the boss. So none of, none of them are used to sharing power, especially Agamemnon, who has power over the largest contingent of forces. But that's true of all of them. So. And there's no, you know, preordained sort of set of ranks in this army. So it's not like he's the high commander. And they've all agreed to that. They've all agreed to fight together, but only somewhat.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Craig is Apollo in human form. So it's good that you, it's good that you detected his trick and answered the question correct.

[Emily Wilson]

Good. Yes. Apollo's always watching. Gotta be careful.

[Andrew]

So you've talked a lot about both in the Odyssey and here. Just something you really wanted to do was to capture unique voices for all the, all the characters. I think when we did the Odyssey, we, and you really zeroed in on Telemachus is like this uniquely sort of fun character who's trying to grow up, but he can't and he's got kind of whiny and he's like trapped in between adulthood and adolescence. So far in this read, when we talked about this a little bit already, I've been struck by Helen's like, vein of like apparent self. Self loathing. Like, can you talk about your approach to capturing that? And, and just how do you, how do you feel about Helen's role in, in this story?

[Emily Wilson]

She's such a fascinating character. I mean, I'm not sure if I see her as exactly self loathing. I mean, she has to. She's been in both places. Right. She's the only mortal character who has that capacity, I mean, only mortal woman character who has that capacity to be in several places. And of course she is like, like Achilles, the son of a God. I think she has to play it the way that she does because otherwise she's going to be even more disliked. Right. I mean, she's constantly conscious of her reputation both in Troy and among the Greeks. And unless she expresses discomfort with her position, then you know she's going to be totally hated. Whereas by saying, I wish I wasn't here, she's able to make at least some powerful friends. And clearly she's close to Priam. Clearly she's close to Hector. Her voice spoiler. She's the last person to mourn Hector right at the end of the poem. She's a really important character who has this overall perspective on the poem. Whereas we often have scenes in Homer of goddesses or elite women weaving, but usually it doesn't depict anything. Andromache does weaving, which seems to be floral. Penelope, of course, does her weaving has a particular goal to it. Helen's weaving is the only one which shows the Trojan War. So I think there were ways that, you know, Helen is particularly close. She's like a poet figure. She's both able to describe to Priam who all the Greeks are, just as the poet can describe to us in book two. Here's who all the Greeks are. He's doing the same thing that Helen can do. And then she's also sort of has to be able to acknowledge. Everyone shudders when they see me. Everyone has a problem with me. And that's kind of hard to live with, you know, I mean, I think also it's important that in book three, the old men of Troy who do have a problem with her don't say, we have a personal problem with her. They say, you know, we understand how this can happen and yet we wish she wasn't here. They're not saying, you know, it's because there's something particularly wrong, you know, with her psychology. They're saying this whole situation is a problem and I don't like being around her.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's. That's interesting because I, I had, I had read into. Into her calling herself a dog face kind of a. Yeah, like a dislike of herself, maybe for her role in starting this. But it sounds like maybe it's more of a like a self deprecation thing or like a. Almost a defense mechanism to like, try and make sure that she can fit in with these people she has to live with.

[Emily Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, this is a much debated thing, like why does she call herself a dog face? And does she actually feel bad about herself? Is it expression of guilt or shame or how much is she internalizing something? I mean, I think it's also important to remember that, you know, in other uses of dogs. I mean, how bad is it to be a dog? Other people, I mean, other people may look at her and see her as a dog. Does that mean they see her as, you know, having sharp teeth and being kind of scary or as being, you know, the kind of animal that can eat in multiple different houses and was always wandering around, you know, looking for somewhere else to be. I mean, I think there's several ways. Ways to read it. And given that she doesn't say, you know, I did a really bad thing and it's my fault. And in fact, I think the poet really goes out of. Out of their way to present it, not as Helen really wants to go with Paris. Right. I mean, the whole sequence at the end of book three is presenting us with a Helen who definitely doesn't want to go with Paris because it's embarrassing. He's embarrassing.

[Craig]

Yes, he is embarrassing.

[Emily Wilson]

He's super cute, but he's embarrassing. She doesn't want to be embarrassed. You know, she looks. She knows she's gonna look bad if after he's just flunked the duel, she then goes to bed with him. So I love that scene between Aphrodite and Helen where the goddess is so scary. And at first, Helen sort of, in a way, it's yet another quarrel. There were so many quarrels in the Iliad. It's another quarrel where Helen tries to, you know, pull shaming on. On the goddess and say, you know, you've got a question him yourself. Why don't you go. Go off with him if you're so hot for him? And yet whatever she says isn't going to help because she can come up with the best insults and it's still not going to matter because the goddess led the way. Goddesses have more power.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily Wilson]

And of course, I mean, as with any of them, we haven't really talked about how to read the gods. I mean, one can read them as representing certain things. I mean, does it mean she's overwhelmed by lust and that's what it means to be led by Aphrodite? Or does it mean there really is a divine being in the universe which leads to her? Maybe it's both. No.

[Craig]

Yeah. One person that we haven't spoken about too much, and that's partially because of where we are in the poem, is Hector. And, you know, I'm kind of struck with sort of like I'm at a halftime. At a football game, like, Hector's going to come in, like, what should we expect from Hector and the rest of the poem? What haven't we talked about in our conversation today that Hector's gonna be bringing forth in terms of themes or just kind of the structure of Troi or. Yeah, what should I. You know, what's he gonna deliver in the second half?

[Emily Wilson]

You're gonna love Hector. Yes. It's gonna be great. I mean, of course, the center of the poem belongs to Hector. And it's as much Hector's poem as it is Achilles poem. Poem. And there's this sort of interbroiding of the stories of Achilles, Agamemnon and Hector, because without the rage of Achilles, Hector wouldn't have his big moment, which he has, you know, throughout the central books of the. Of the Iliad. I mean, I think the. The whole question of why do people, why do male warriors risk their lives for honor? What's at stake in that? I mean, of course, that question arises for both Achilles and for Hector. It arises in a particularly tragic way for Hector because we have so much deep knowledge of his family, whereas Achilles only has a sea goddess mother, which is not much of a family. And then he also has, of course, Patroclus as his other. As his mortal family. Whereas Hector has a wife and a kid and also parents. And that's the repeated trope of his family begging him not to go fight in the most dangerous way possible out on the open plain. Because if he does that, that chances are what we know is going to happen will happen, and he'll die, and then the whole city will fall and his wife will be enslaved and his little baby will be thrown from the city walls and it'll be a disaster. So why does Hector do that? That problem of why is Hector taking these big risks? He's taking them because he feels he has to, because otherwise he's going to be shamed. The only way to continue in his essential role as the best warrior in Troy is to be the one who takes the most risk. But then that also means he's taking the most risks for his city, even while defending his city. So that terrible paradox that he's fighting for Troy, but he's also constantly risking Troy by risking his own life.

[Craig]

Did the Greeks have a word for catch 22 or is it just paradox?

[Emily Wilson]

Yes, it's not quite that term, but yes, exactly. That is a good phrase for what the problem with Hector is. Poor Hector. Yes.

[Craig]

So we're just going to wind down with two more questions here. Emily, thank you so much for your time. I was very remiss. I did not catch the Lisa Peterson work that came through Philly a few weeks ago. I think the national tour is wrapped up. But Lisa Peterson did an adaptation of the Iliad a few years ago that I had the good fortune to work on a production of at one point and was really moving. And so I was so excited to see that she had worked on a piece with your translation of the Odyssey. So I just wanted to get reaction, like, what was that? Like, what was it like seeing your piece adapted into performance? Because I know you do have a great reverence for performance and also think about the body when you're doing translations and things like that.

[Emily Wilson]

Absolutely, yes. I mean, part of my whole sort of agenda in writing in Meter is sort of thinking about performance and speaking out loud. And part of my whole agenda also in thinking through each character and the characters shouldn't all sound the same, is thinking about performance. It was amazing. I loved the play. I only saw it once. I would love to go again if they put it on in New York, which I think they may do. I mean, she did this, I thought, really innovative thing of setting it in a contemporary refugee camp. And it's three female. It's four female actors, and they're refugees, migrants from different parts of the world who are waiting for their. Waiting to get. To go on to wherever they're going. And while they're killing Tyler time, they're reading the Odyssey. And so the sort of interspersed bits of dialogue that are sort of modern dialogue of what does it feel like for these women, along with reading of bits of the Odyssey? And how does the Odyssey present a story of migration and being lost and being homeless and coming home and what does family mean? I thought it was fantastic. Definitely recommend it if it comes back.

[Craig]

Excellent.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's great. All right. And then I'll take the last one and I'll keep it bit Hellenic. So we're on theme. So you did the Odyssey. It was kind of a. You do one of the Homeric epics. It's sort of obvious that the next thing is the other of the Homeric epics. So you've done both of those. Is this sort of an Alexander wept moment for you, or do you have another world that you're looking to conquer after this?

[Emily Wilson]

I'm weeping a little bit because I love, love Homer so much. And obviously I've been reading Homer my whole life. It's not the end. Right now, I'm doing a totally different kind of project, but completely related, which is a fictional retelling of Trojan War myths. So it's sort of filling in the bits that are not central in the Iliad and trying to make it into a series of interlocked short stories. So Ganymede and how did. How did Heracles first sack Troy and all these stories that are implicit in the Iliad but don't get in a prime time.

[Andrew]

Yeah, sounds great.

[Emily Wilson]

Beautiful. Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. Well, again, thank you for your generous time and your wonderful translation. We're really looking forward to moving forward with it.

[Emily Wilson]

Thank you. It's fun to talk to you and

[Craig]

if anything, any folks want to learn more about your work, it's emilyrcwilson.com is the best place to go.

[Emily Wilson]

Yes, that's true.

[Craig]

Excellent. Thanks so much, Emily.

[Emily Wilson]

Thank you.

[Andrew]

You.

[Emily Wilson]

Thank you.

[Andrew]

Thanks. That was a Headgum podcast. What's up, everybody?

[Craig]

I'm Kyle Mooney and what's up, everybody? I'm Back Bonnet and Man. Ooh, I got.

[Andrew]

We got something to tell you.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, we definitely do. Yes.

[Andrew]

It's a brand new podcast on Headgum.

[Craig]

That's right. And it's called what's Our Podcast? Yep. And that's because we don't have a

[Andrew]

single idea what our podcast should be about.

[Craig]

Yeah, we don't. So we actually have guests. Guests come on and they tell us what they think our podcast should be about, and then we try it.

[Emily Wilson]

Yep.

[Craig]

Guests like Mark Marin, Jack Black, Brittany Broski, Caper Land, Bobby Moynihan, Meg Stalter and Tim Ball.

[Andrew]

Landon axler, Joey Joni McGregor. And Dender.

[Craig]

And Dender. New episodes release every Wednesday, so subscribe to what's Our Podcast?

[Andrew]

On YouTube or any of your favorite podcast platforms. Yeah, I'm gonna go do it right now.