The Sillymarillion Ep 01 - A Shortcut to Ilúvatar (J.R.R. Tolkien's Silmarillion)

Summary

Overdue Podcast — The Sillymarillion, Ep 01: "A Shortcut to Ilúvatar" (J.R.R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion)
Original Air Date: April 24, 2026 | Hosts: Craig & Andrew | Headgum

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Episode Overview

In the inaugural episode of the "Sillymarillion" miniseries, Andrew and Craig embark on an ambitious, often irreverent, read-through of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Silmarillion. They break down the structure of the epic, reflect on its mythological roots, and explore the earliest chapters: the "Ainulindalë," "Valaquenta," and the first three chapters of the "Quenta Silmarillion." With their signature blend of humor and genuine curiosity, the hosts unravel Tolkien's mythmaking, introduce the cosmic players, and riff on the complexity, tone, and enduring charm of Middle-earth’s origin story.

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Main Segments & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Stage: What Is The Silmarillion?

Starts ~03:00

• Context & Structure:

  • The book, compiled posthumously by Tolkien’s son Christopher, is not another Lord of the Rings narrative but rather a mythic history of Middle-earth.
  • The work consists of multiple parts: "Ainulindalë" (the music of the Ainur), "Valaquenta" (who's who of the gods), "Quenta Silmarillion" (core mythic histories), "Akallabêth" (Second Age and Númenor), and a high-level summary relating to The Lord of the Rings.
  • Quote:

    "If you're looking for more Lord of the Rings... this is not what it is." — Andrew (03:28)

• Personal Connections:

  • Andrew’s third read-through; Craig’s first time.
  • The episode serves as both lore-deep dive and a relatable entry point for newcomers.

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2. The Creation Myth: The Ainulindalë

Starts ~07:20

• Central Players:

  • Ilúvatar (Eru) as the singular god-figure.
  • The Ainur—powerful angelic beings—create the world through music under Ilúvatar’s direction.

• Inspiration & Tone:

  • Parallels to the Bible, Finnish Kalevala, Greek and Norse mythos.
  • The "music of the Ainur" is the literal basis for the world’s creation, introducing the theme of collaborative but imperfect divine artistry.

• Melkor’s Dissonance:

  • Melkor brings discord into the music, acting as a cosmic "first actor"—the original rebel.
  • Discussion ties mythic rebellion to the concept of individuality as both creative and destructive.

• Memorable Analogy:

  • Comparing Melkor’s musical disruption to "Pitch Perfect’s" acapella battles:

    “Something about the dueling pianos moment of this story... my first thought was Pitch, the movie Pitch Perfect.” — Craig (13:32)

• Core Insight:

  • Tolkien bakes imperfection and disharmony directly into the world’s fabric—echoing human experience.

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3. Gods & Demigods: Valaquenta

Starts ~22:35

• Pantheon Recap:

  • The Valar—fourteen major divine beings, each aligned with domains (air, water, earth, craft, etc.), plus Melkor (the outcast).
  • Gender parity: seven lords and seven ladies.
  • Traits and relationships mirror, but subtly subvert, Greek pantheon dynamics.

• Standout Personalities:

  • Manwë & Varda’s cosmic marriage:

    “When she is with him, he can see forever; and when he is with her, she can hear forever. Pretty cool little note there.” — Craig (24:43)

  • Ulmo, solitary lord of waters—“Hell yeah” (25:06).

• Crafting Gods & Philosophical Contrasts:

  • Aulë loves making for its own sake, contrasted with Melkor who wants dominion:

    “He just likes making stuff...he doesn’t make stuff to lord it over people or to get something. He just likes the act of making things.” — Andrew (26:29)

• Maiar & Hidden Figures:

  • Introduction to lesser spirits (Maiar), foreshadowing the origins of Gandalf and Sauron.
  • Gandalf’s many names and “secret Gandalf” breadcrumbs:

    “You found Gandalf. ... You’re not going to see him smoke some pipe weed, but he’s in here.” — Andrew (31:30)

• Evil’s Hierarchy:

  • Sauron as a Maia corrupted by Melkor, with Balrogs as fellow fallen Maiar.

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4. The Origins of Peoples: Elves, Dwarves, and the First Age

Starts ~37:17 (Quenta Silmarillion chapters 1–3)

a. The Arrival of the Elves

• The Valar ready the world for Ilúvatar’s Children (Elves and Men), but are unsure when they’ll appear.
• Trepidation and anticipation frame the gods’ preparations (akin to parents before Christmas).

b. The Dwarves’ Unauthorized Debut (Ch. 2; ~40:52)

• Aulë, impatient and eager to teach, creates dwarves in secret.
• Ilúvatar confronts Aulë; Aulë demonstrates humility, is forgiven, and dwarves are allowed to exist—explaining dwarves’ outsider status and their fraught relationship with elves.
  • Notable parallel:

    “It’s sort of an Abraham thing, right? ... [Elves and Dwarves] got along in spite of [their god-dads designing them not to].” — Craig (45:20)

c. The First Elves & Orcs

• Elves awaken under the stars, call themselves Quendi, and are split into subgroups based on their willingness to heed the Valar’s call west.

• Melkor, ever the corrupter, twists some elves into the first orcs.

  • Key insight:

    “He [Melkor] gets to a point where he can only create things in mockery ... The cannon fodder of every evil guy who follows after him.” — Andrew (52:19)

• The Valar defeat and imprison Melkor, but the elves’ early trauma persists, and the group divisions foreshadow future histories.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Mythic Tone:

  “Big Paradiso vibes... beings that are basically pure song until Illuvatar, like, shows them a vision...” — Craig (09:08)

• On Melkor as Tragic Figure:

  “My inclination is to view Melkor as kind of tragic even. But he does spend most of the book just being like a big evil floating head.” — Andrew (13:06)

• On Divine Parenting Styles:

  “It’s fun that dwarves and elves don’t get along because these specific characters made the choices they made as opposed to ... some old thing that nobody remembers...” — Andrew (59:47)

• On Elvish Immortality:

  “They are bound to the full scope of time ... but they are also going to become filled with grief through the passage of time.” — Craig (57:18)

• On Wizardry’s Mystery:

  “What are these wizards in Lord of the Rings, it kind of doesn’t matter... they’re just like magical beings.” — Craig (35:56)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:00 — Introduction to The Silmarillion’s structure and context
• 07:20 — The creation myth: "Ainulindalë" discussion
• 13:30 — Melkor as rebel; "Pitch Perfect” analogy
• 22:35 — "Valaquenta": Pantheon, Valar personalities, Maiar intro
• 31:28 — Gandalf’s secret origins (Olorin; “many names” quote)
• 37:17 — Begin "Quenta Silmarillion"; the coming of Elves, Dwarves, First Age
• 40:52 — The creation and justification of the Dwarves
• 45:20 — Why Elves & Dwarves don’t get along; Abraham parallel
• 52:19 — Orcs as corrupted Elves, Melkor’s legacy
• 57:18 — On Elvish immortality and sorrow

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Tone & Style

The episode balances whimsy, pop-culture asides (including "Pitch Perfect" and “The Clumps”), genuine mythic engagement, and accessible explanations for complex Tolkien lore. Andrew and Craig’s dynamic features in-jokes and analogies, all while openly working through pronunciations and connections—mirroring the experience of both newcomers and returning fans.

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Final Takeaways

• The Silmarillion, while dense and biblical, is packed with fascinating mythological dynamics and foundational stories for Middle-earth.
• Tolkien’s world-building intentionally incorporates imperfection, rebellion, and many shades of heroism and villainy.
• The hosts’ humorous, candid approach demystifies Tolkien’s epic for a modern audience, highlighting both the cosmic stakes and the quirky details.

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For the Next Episode

The hosts will continue with chapters 4–10 of The Quenta Silmarillion, diving deeper into the histories, betrayals, and splendor (and chaos) of the First Age.

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For fans, newcomers, and the Tolkien-curious, this episode launches the "Sillymarillion" with a mix of reverence, irreverence, and relatable curiosity—a perfect companion for anyone diving into Tolkien’s mythic masterpiece for the first (or third) time.

Transcript

[Andrew]

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[Craig]

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[Craig]

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[Andrew]

and Craig believe the joy of discovery is crucial to enjoying any well told

[Craig]

tale, they will not shy away from

[Andrew]

spoiling specific story beats when necessary.

[Craig]

Plus, these are books you should have read by now. One pod to cast them all and in the darkness read them. Welcome to the Silly Marillion, a podcast brought to you by the Boys from Overdue, a podcast about the books you've been meaning to read. My name is Craig.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew. And I can't help but think how much cooler sounding that intro was thankful than the one that we did for episode zero.

[Craig]

This is our miniseries on the Silma the Silmarillion. I need to work on my accent. In the word by J.R.R. tolkien. Compiled and edited by his son Christopher, with support from Guy Gabriel. K. Thanks Guy K. For pitching in.

[Andrew]

Thank you. Thank you Guy.

[Craig]

And we're here, Andrew, in episode one of our new series.

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

We did do an episode zero with a lot of the table setting, a lot of the, you know, kind of the lore behind the book of Lore.

[Andrew]

Yes, the lore of the Rings, if you will. Yeah. Just like where, where this posthumously published book comes from, where it stands in relationship to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, which are the books that everyone's encountered. If you're going to have encountered Tolkien's books before. And just like the, the way that you run into this, this book, if you're looking for more Lord of the Rings, which is not what it is.

[Craig]

It's not. It's something else. It is something else. And as we said, I. I have never read this before. You have read it twice. This is your third go around. Number three, baby on the carousel.

[Andrew]

Hat trick. The carousel Marillion, am I right?

[Craig]

Oh, wow. And I'm excited to learn about this. I've read. What are we talking about? This episode. We're talking about Inulindale, Valaquenta and the Quenta Silmarillion, chapters one through three. So we've got two kind of, you know, lore heavy biblical pantheon stuff, almost

[Andrew]

standalone prefaces to what goes on. Quintessilmarillion being like the bulk of the. Of the.

[Craig]

Yeah. I want to talk about how the book is structured a little bit briefly. It's how many tales there are.

[Andrew]

Four parts, five parts.

[Craig]

Four, five, five part. Four parts. Four parts.

[Andrew]

There. There are five parts. The fifth one is like a high level summary of the Lord of the Rings. So we can, yeah, sure. Include it in our reckoning of. Of things. But I guess. But the. If, if you're talking about five parts, put. Take part five. Cut it off. Put it over to the side.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Part one is the I. Newland Dale. We are not the kinds of Tolkien nerds who know everything about elvish runes and pronunciation and stuff. So, you know, pronunciation tips are welcome, I guess, but don't feel like you have to do it.

[Craig]

Let us know if there are ones you think are like, really interesting or if maybe if you're listening along and you're. If we're missing a character connection because of a mispronunciation. I would certainly love to know about that.

[Andrew]

Sure. Yes. Then there's the Valquinta, which is talking mostly about. The first part is mostly God created the heaven and the earth, right?

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

The second part is actually. This is more like a mythological pantheon. And here are all the big boys that you need to know about.

[Craig]

A bit of a dramatis personae with a little like, you know, character nuggets thrown in. Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew]

And then Quintessilmarillion is the main. Like the. The. The bulk of the book, which is. If you are versed in Tolkien's world at all, like the Lord of the Rings takes place in the Third Age. It. You hear a lot about the second Age, because the Second age is, like, where a lot of the seeds that are sown in the Lord of the Rings are, like, sprouting up from. And then this is the first Age, which encompasses everything from, like, the beginning of the world, like, literally the beginning of the world, to the downfall of the guy who is Sauron before Sauron.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So the Quintessil Marillion is like the tale of. Okay. You know, all the. You know. You know how the world was created, you know who most of the God people are. Here is everything that happened in the first Age.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And then the fourth part is the Akalabeth, which is as close as we get to, like, a comprehensive reckoning of what the Second Age is about. If you've watched Amazon's Rings of Power show, it's mostly playing in the blank space that is left in that age, because it's the age with the most blank space.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

And then the last one is just like, here's Lord of the Rings. Here's what happens with Lord of the Rings and how it kind of relates to what you just read.

[Craig]

Great. That makes sense.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So, yeah. I don't know. Should we just dive in?

[Andrew]

Yes, please. Let's do it.

[Craig]

So the first part I knew, and Dale said it's the music of the. I know I knew her.

[Andrew]

You don't need. You don't need to put too much stank on it. Just say, say what's comfortable.

[Craig]

Aru. The one called Iluvatar.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's God.

[Craig]

That's God. He created everything. And it's. You know, there is a lot in this work that takes from inspiration from the Kalevala, which is a Finnish epic. We'll talk about kind of the Greek Olympiad, the Pantheon there a little bit. There's an island, I think, later, that is reminiscent of Atlantis. There's a lot of Norse myth kind of in here as well.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah. I said. I said God created the heaven and the Earth, but that's not quite what's going on here. What it is is, like, God created a bunch of, like, angels, basically, and then he directs the angels as in a giant choir.

[Craig]

Yep. The Ainur.

[Andrew]

And the shape that their music takes defines kind of the shape of the. Of the world as it is. But then because they are not God themselves, they cannot possibly hope to see all the complex interactions between the different things that they've all created together. And so there are still things that come out in the world that are like, that's. It's the design of Iluvatar, but it is not something that these, like, angel characters are privy to. And this is why they care about what happens in the world in the first place, is they're just, like, kind of fascinated by a thing that, like, exists outside themselves. Yeah.

[Craig]

So it, like, it starts with this big, beautiful sing along. And overall, the first parts of this gave me big Paradiso vibes, Andrew, where it's like, it's kind of hard to picture what you're reading because it's deliberately not. It doesn't have physical shape. Like, he's describing a thing. He's describing beings that are basically pure song until Illuvatar, like, shows them a vision of something and, like, lets them see for the first time. But before that happens. But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while, it seemed good to him. For in the music, there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. Melkor is cool. I. I'm here.

[Andrew]

Uh.

[Craig]

Oh, I think. Well, I think Melkor, as a creation within this. This work of fiction, is an interesting character. He, like, he's. What if. Okay, I know. I think we've talked about this before, Andrew. The first actor, as we understand thespis, as we get the word thespian from actors, the legend is that he, you know, stepped out from the Greek chorus to portray a character himself, thus becoming the first actor. Right. And so Melkor, that's.

[Andrew]

Wow. Okay. That's pretty on the nose. Yeah, that's so. So obviously, every. Every actor who's ever been like, look at me. He is actually honoring more than anybody else what the.

[Craig]

Well, because drama, the. The stories used to just be a big course of people all telling the story together. And then what if we drop. If we dramatized part of it by having a singular character portrayed by one person. That's the great innovation.

[Andrew]

Let's have a small domino, big domino meme that, like, starts with that guy

[Craig]

and then Big Mama's house.

[Andrew]

Tom Cruise.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

That ends with, like, Eddie Murphy playing all the parts. Clumps. What if there was a chorus that one person stepped out from. And then what if one person broke into their whole chorus?

[Craig]

It was all them, this book supposes. What if Thespis was evil? What if what Thespis did was bad? Because Melkor likes to spend time in the void away from the choir.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And the void being like the place where the world is going to exist, but it doesn't exist yet because all these Ainur have not finished like singing their song yet.

[Craig]

And when he's in there away from everybody else, he can kind of have his own thoughts and like no one else is having thoughts like this. And it's in those like kind of non collective thoughts that he can develop pride and develop, you know, I guess jealousy or like a belief that his own ideas are worth expressing at a level that might rival. Not maybe not rival is even the right word, but just like be an individual in a way that is different and causing problems.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I'm, I'm not like, I'm not sure how much of this Tolkien was trying to do because I think a lot, a lot of myths and like this myth in particular and you know, the Lord of the Rings too, they all, they all operate on this assumption that like there's good and there's evil and there's a clear dividing line between both of them.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And some people are just evil and we don't need to worry about what their motivations are and we don't need to worry if there's like a reasonable explanation for the things that they're doing. They're just evil and that's it. And so I, you know, especially here in this like beginning part, I. My inclination is to view Melkor as like kind of tragic even.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But he does spend most of the book just being like a big evil floating head.

[Craig]

Yeah. He's like a Loki, Lucifer floating head. You're right. But it's just in this chapter in particular and a little bit in the next one we were just like, oh, you just like got a, you just got a weird personality and you don't fit in. And like what if you wanted to keep expressing yourself and it caught? It just caused everyone harm and strife.

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because you were the only one doing it.

[Craig]

You ever see the movie?

[Andrew]

You weren't conforming know movie Pitch Perfect.

[Craig]

Andrew.

[Andrew]

I probably part of it.

[Craig]

There's a part like maybe a third of the way in. Anna Kendrick's already in the acapella group. She thinks it's kind of dumb still, but she's having fun and they all go and have like acapella off where they all, like, have to, like, live come up with arrangements of pop songs in response to it. Something about the dueling pianos moment of this story where Melkor and, I guess, some other people who like him and the other children or not, they're not the children. There's. The other Ainor are, like, kind of, like singing against each other. Gave me my first thought was Pitch, the movie Pitch Perfect.

[Andrew]

That was the first Inor trying to sing a Britney Spears song and Melkor's trying to sing a Nextina song. And they're just in conflict with each other

[Craig]

and kind of to reconcile this. Iluvatar is like, listen, with my song. I will show you a little world in the void and show you that I can make everything. And in my vision are the children of Iluvatar the elves, the firstborn and the men, the followers, or the elves and men, the firstborn and the followers. And Melkor's of like, huh, cool. But what if, for me, what if I could have some?

[Andrew]

And then this is a dynamic setup in the Lord of the Rings already. But the elves are, you know, they get to live forever, but the downside is they have to live forever.

[Craig]

Yeah. They're like. They're bound to. The time of the world is like the phrase that they use. Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And like, death is a thing that men kind of strive against but is best understood, according to Tolkien and to Iluvatar, as a. As a gift that's been given to mortality.

[Craig]

Notion that your time is finite.

[Andrew]

Yes. Which is. Which is both, like, I think, meant to be a rest in the end, but is also meant to give your life some kind of direction and urgency that does not exist for the elves.

[Craig]

Yes. It. It is that there's, like, kind of a restlessness in them that will cause them to do things. And then, like, sometimes that.

[Andrew]

Sometimes that'd be bad that that exists.

[Craig]

Sometimes it'd be bad.

[Andrew]

Mm. So you're talking about Melkor and how. How I think of him is kind of tragic. Is. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the children of Iluvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both elves and men, envying the gifts with which Iluvatar promised to endow them. And he wished himself to have subjects and servants and to be called Lord and to be a master over other Wills. So that's like, blink and you miss it. That Melkor, even. Even he is lying to himself, even at first.

[Craig]

Why can't I be good? Yeah, I must be evil.

[Andrew]

But then he can't do it. Then he's an evil boy.

[Craig]

We hear about a few of the.

[Andrew]

Literally, the original bad boy.

[Craig]

We get some initial. I know names like Ulmo and Manwe and Aule. And then all of a sudden, Louvatar is like, it's not a vision. It's real. Yeah, the world that is.

[Andrew]

So there are three songs that the Ainur sing. And the first one is like, Melkor starts singing this. This thing that's like, discordant. And Iluvatar stops and he smiles at them and he's like, oh, you scamps. And then he starts him up again, and there's harmony again for a while. But then the disharmony comes back and it's even worse than before. And then he stops him again. He's like, stop it. Like, I'm mad at you. Stop it. Try again. And the same thing happens. Basically, it starts in harmony, but then the, like, the discord of both Melkor and, like, the other people here, the other beings here that are, like, around him and are following him, it's all, like. It's all conflicting. And then Illuvatar says, look. Look at what you did with your music. And all the, like, the discord is present there. But Iluvatar's whole thing is, like, you can't make. You can't make something so discordant that I can't work it into my awesome song.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And so, yeah, so that, like, the world reflects, like, what. What their music did, and the complex interactions and the dissonance just end up being more, like, cool stuff. And it's all about, like, unintended consequences. And.

[Craig]

And, yeah, the. The thing right before. Yes, because I want to talk about that. Yes. What I really like about this creation myth, both in this chapter and as it's discussed in the next book, the next passage or whatever, is that there's, like, kind of an inherent imperfection. Might not. Might not be the word Iluvatar would use, but the particulars of the world, the fact that there is both, like, badness and brokenness and the goodness and light in it, like, comes out of this struggle between the Ainur and Melkor and other, you know, discordant forces. And, like, that's all just part of it, man. Like, that's the. So, like, what happens is some of the Ainors Stay wherever Iluvatar is and they just, like, hang out with him. And then a bunch of them are, like, so fascinated by the world that they go into it, or it's later called Arda, I suppose, because what Iluvitar

[Andrew]

has shown them is not the world as it exists. He has shown them the sizzle reel, Nintendo direct trailer for the world Come to Gorman. Yeah. And they're like, look at this. This is sick. I want to be there.

[Craig]

Yes. He sent them the fabled Donkey Kong Country VHS to show them how cool it would be. I watched that thing so many times.

[Andrew]

I love. I love watching the Illuvitar direct, though. Everybody's just asking for Silk Song to come out.

[Craig]

Melkor with the clown face on, everybody, all that.

[Andrew]

There's a discordant chor of voices saying silksong when. And Iluvatar raises his hand and frowns.

[Craig]

But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the world, to be within it forever until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the powers of the world. So this is the, like, dozen and a half, the 14 or so valar. Is it 14? Seven.

[Andrew]

It's seven. Seven men and seven women.

[Craig]

And then Melkor. And we don't talk about.

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, Melkor, whose name is not included among the. The names of the Valar any longer.

[Craig]

And so they go in to the universe and are thus going to be part of it in a way that the other Ainur are not.

[Andrew]

And you mentioned, like, Finnish myth. I think, like, if you come into this with even, like, a rudimentary understanding of Greek myth, it's like, basically, yeah, people kind of have a domain that they. That they. A lane that they stick to.

[Craig]

Yep. And the other thing that we learn in this. In this passage, too, is that the Valar may, like, move among the world kind of in our, like, what we loved about the Odyssey. They might become, you know, gods as people if they need to. They can put on the raiment of mortals if they so choose now that they are bound to that plane of existence. And I just have a. I have a little note here, Andrew. I don't think it's real. I'm just, like, putting it out there. Okay, Gandalf, watch. I'm just like. I'm waiting for the part in the Silmarillion where I learn what Gandalf is, because I don't really know, I think

[Andrew]

you're be in here already.

[Craig]

Really?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Gandalf be in here.

[Craig]

Okay, great.

[Andrew]

I can't wait to tell you about it.

[Craig]

I have some thoughts. I'm not sure. I just have. Is Gandalf a secret Valar? Is one of my notes and it's possible that he is. I don't think he's a Louvatar. I don't think.

[Andrew]

I don't know. He's not. He's not. He's not a Louvatar. I know exactly what Gandalf is, and I will explain it to you whenever.

[Craig]

Great.

[Andrew]

I mean, it is in the second part, so let's move on to the second part. The history of the world has been like the book of the world has been written and now the Valar are in it and are kind of making it happen.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Slash observing it happen.

[Craig]

Yes, we will talk about the Valaquenta after I just read a sentence to you and you have to think about what it is to write this sentence. Now to water had that Ainu whom the elves called Omo turned his thought and of all, most deeply was he instructed by Iluvatar in music. That's how some of this book reads.

[Andrew]

Just like that's how a lot of it reads.

[Craig]

You just need to know. Okay. The Valaquenta account of the Valar tickled me almost. Account of the Valar and the Maiar. According to the lore of the Eldar, Illuvitar made the iron or made the music, made the world. And the Ainur entered the world at the beginning of time. And these are the Valar. We've got a little pantheon. As we've said. They all have their own powers. They are called powers. They are called gods by men. Oh, and Melkor is there, so it's never.

[Andrew]

It's never really said like, oh, each of these. Each of these guys can only do this thing.

[Craig]

No, no, no.

[Andrew]

This is. This is the thing that they're interested in. And so it's the thing that they're.

[Craig]

Way to think about it. Yep. We got Manway, who I is like the Leonardo of the gang.

[Andrew]

He's the Zeus.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Leonardo slashes the Cyclops.

[Craig]

And he does. He doesn'. Really have a thing other than that he's in charge.

[Andrew]

His main thing is that he. He of all of them understands best what Iluvitar One Illuvitar's whole. What his intent was.

[Craig]

Sure. Yes.

[Andrew]

He's. He's the Chris Tolkien of the self.

[Craig]

Insert. His wife is Varda, lady of the Stars. The elves love her. Melkor hates her. When she is with him, he can see forever. And when he is with her, she can hear forever. Pretty cool little note there.

[Andrew]

Sick, sick marriage. Like, way better than Zeus and Hera.

[Craig]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Andrew]

I do not think we get. We get knockdown drag outs.

[Craig]

No.

[Andrew]

Between them, the way we did from.

[Craig]

Here's a direct quote for you. Omo is the lord of water. He is alone. And I just. My note just says, hell yeah. That's a.

[Andrew]

He's cool. He's a cool guy. He just.

[Craig]

He's a Poseidon, but without as much drama.

[Andrew]

There are a lot of little notes in here that's like, listen, this is. This is the. This is how these gods are ordered. But like, because so much of Lord of the Rings and like the stuff that you, the reader already know about is so like elven centric and like, even the hobbits are like super absorbed with like elven lore and the way that the world was.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Like, there's some of these people who just get revered up and above others just because the elves like them a lot. Like, the elves love the stars, elves love water. It's because they like these gods so much. Yeah.

[Craig]

Almost. Cool. He's got the like classic Poseidon thing of, I live down in the water. Like, I'm not gonna get on everybody's mess all the time. Like you. Yeah, I'm coming to the reunions, but I'm not coming every other holiday.

[Andrew]

This meeting could have been an email. He does not show. He does not show up to most of the meetings.

[Craig]

Yeah. There's Owley, who is the lord of things that are made and other substances. So like all the loot in your Minecraft blocks. Like, he made those.

[Andrew]

He loves making stuff. Yes. The book draws an interesting contrast between him and between Melkor.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

Because he is. He's like the most similar in like, disposition and like what he likes to

[Craig]

do is the same class, different alignment

[Andrew]

to Melkor, but for. For Ale. Like what he. What? There's a whole pass. Let me, let me look it up. But there's a holes a bit where it's like he just likes making stuff. And he doesn't make stuff to like lord it over people or to like get something. He just likes. He just likes the act of making things.

[Craig]

Yes. Where Melkor is a little more like, I'm gonna make this to an end.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

He is married.

[Andrew]

Okay. The delight. Okay, wait, let me see. Of the fabric of Earth that had Ale thought to whom illuvitar given skill and knowledge scarce less than to Melkor. But the delight and pride of allay is in the deed of making and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery. Wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work. Yeah, dude just loves making stuff.

[Craig]

Loves making stuff. You can't stop him.

[Andrew]

And Listen, I got 3D printer, so I feel like I'm kind of like the ally of the. Of the two of us.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Delight and pride of me is in the deed of making.

[Craig]

I don't know why. I just thought of Moby, who has like 22 albums. Dude just loves making stuff.

[Andrew]

But he doesn't. But he doesn't make it because he wants to, like, lord it over the rest of us, dominate all of us. He just likes to make it and put it out there and then move on to the next thing.

[Craig]

Ollie is married to Yavana, the God of stuff that grows. She's gonna factor into the neck into one of the Silmarillion chapters in a little bit. There's Mandos and Lorian, who are actually Namo and Irmo. Like, Mandos and Lorian are kind of like the names of where they hang out.

[Andrew]

Lorian has nothing to do with Lori and the forest in the forest. No.

[Craig]

That's frustrating to me. Okay, good.

[Andrew]

It's strange that. It's strange that it is that way, but it. Yeah, there's no relation at all, as far as I can tell.

[Craig]

Namo keeps the Houses of the Dead and knows the past and the future. And his wife is Vayer, the Weaver, who weaves time and stories. And then Irmo is in charge of visions and dreams, married to Este, whose deal is, like, people get sad sometimes and they need to feel better. I just, like. I don't know if, like, what that's about.

[Andrew]

Little therapy.

[Craig]

Nienna. She dwells alone. She keeps grief and mourns the wounds of the world. Then there's Tulkas, the Valiant, a fighting type. He is there to fight.

[Andrew]

Tolkien is great talk. Is the Diomedes of the crew.

[Craig]

He is Diomedes. You're right.

[Andrew]

He just likes fighting.

[Craig]

He does.

[Andrew]

Never going to get tired. And he's like, not. At some point the book is like, he's not, like, cool to talk to, but he's like, really? He's a real steadfast ally and ally and he loves to fight.

[Craig]

Okay. And he goes with Nessa, I think, who's also a hunter. And then there's Arome who is also a fighter, but he's also madder and he's a hunter and he has a white slash silver horse and he has a horn that he blows Secret Gandalf.

[Andrew]

Not Gandalf.

[Craig]

Dang it had secret Gandalf written down.

[Andrew]

No. And no. He's not secret Gandalf.

[Craig]

Okay, but then there are other spirits. The Maiar.

[Andrew]

Okay, the Maiar. Interesting.

[Craig]

See, that's what I thought. I think I know which one. I think I know which one is secret Gandalf.

[Andrew]

Which one? Okay, so the, the Maiar are. They are similar in quality to the Valar. Like they are still. They're still there at this like singing of this song. And they are. But. But they're like demigods, basically.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

So who. So, so Melkor is. Is. He's not, he's not one of the valor. We don't talk about Melkor. But he is, he is like of a.

[Craig]

He's there.

[Andrew]

A class.

[Craig]

Yes, yes.

[Andrew]

And then Sauron is a Maiar.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

Who followed Melkor and he only became the Big Bad once Melkor is out of the picture.

[Craig]

Correct. So like you've got Ase, who is a vassal of Olmo who was once courted by Melkor. And like that's like a little. That's like the first you get of like a quote unquote good character who gets tempted by one of the evil lords and then like forever after. Sometimes some problems happen near Olmo and it's probably that guy's fault. Right? You've got Melian, who dwelt in Lorien. And then you've got Olorin, who also dwelt there, but also went to Nienna and no one talks about him anymore. Did he hide? Where did he go?

[Andrew]

Mm.

[Craig]

Does he smoke a pipe? Does he wear a hat?

[Andrew]

Mithrandir, we called him in elf fashion, said Faramir, and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir. Among the elves, Tarkoon. To the dwarves, Oloren. I was in my youth in the west, that is forgotten in the south, in Kanus in the north, Gandalf. To the east I go not.

[Craig]

I found him.

[Andrew]

You found. See, you found. You found Gandalf.

[Craig]

It makes me feel better to talk about this right now when that is just sitting there in the Fellowship, I suppose. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's in the Lord of the Rings.

[Craig]

Okay, great.

[Andrew]

But. But it's a. It's a real drive by thing. It's like you. You have to remember this one thing that you Hear secondhand from another character about one of the, like, six names that Gandalf said that people call them sometimes. But this book, it's. I don't know that it's doing it intentionally, but there's. There are scattered throughout always, like, these little bits of like, oh, you're here from Lord of the Rings, right? Let me. Let me just drop a little breadcrumb about a character you recognize who I'm not going to talk about. But he is in here.

[Craig]

Yes. Yes.

[Andrew]

Here's Gandalf. You're not going to see him smoke some pipe weed, but he's in here. Well, he's so cool.

[Craig]

And I kind of like that. Like, the little nugget you get is. And nobody. Like, if going back to what you said in Episode zero, there's this kind of like, there used to be a frame narrative where a guy was writing down things he heard from elves. Like in this chapter, there's this little thing of Olerin, which is like, somebody mentioned him, but they can't tell me anything else about where he went. Like, we don't know. He dropped off the, the, you know, the registry. He's not. He does. He deleted his Facebook account. Like, we don't know what he's doing anymore. Then there's like the. Then there's the bad guys. Then there's Melkor, who arises. He who arises in might. The elves call him Morgoth, enemy of the world. From splendor he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself a spirit, wasteful and pitiless same. He's kind of like, you know, he's drawing his power from his unique selfishness and spitefulness. Many Maiar, he began with the desire

[Andrew]

of light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning down into capital darkness.

[Craig]

And there is like a whole thing in the first book about, like, when they all learn to see for the first time and they all discover what darkness is. And it's kind of harrowing for them. And Melkor was born in the dark. Apparently, many Maiar are drawn to him, including the Valurakar, AKA the Balrogs.

[Andrew]

Balrogs.

[Craig]

You read those books, right? The Balrogs, Yeah. Also, yes, as you mentioned, Andrew, he had a servant named Sauron Gorthour the Cruel, who obviously used to be a Mire of Aule until he fell in with the bad crowd.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's it. That's. So the, the thing with Aloran is that all the. So he is one of five Gandalf is one of five wizards that are sent into the world from the west in like, the mid Third Age or something.

[Craig]

Okay, okay.

[Andrew]

To kind of just kind of get a lay of the land and to do good stuff on the behalf of the Valar.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

Kind of like emissaries, in a way. And we know the only ones we really get a lot of time with are Gandalf and Saruman, but they're both like these kind of Maiar demigod, okay characters. And then so and so. When you know that stuff, it makes Saruman's arc more tragic because he started as this. Yeah, he's kind of. He's kind of a mini Melkor Morgoth in his own way. It's like he. He starts with this good guy, but he starts with this good guy. He has good intentions, and then it's twisted by jealousy and pride. And then he becomes this thing that's, like, antithetical to why he was supposed to be.

[Craig]

Well, and can I just say, as somebody who comes to Lord of the Rings after years of playing RPGs, playing DND, like, what a wizard is, is so, like, kind of. It's been codified as, like, a class and like a type of character. And then the way that, like, you. What are these wizards in Lord of the Rings, it kind of doesn't matter. Like, it's kind of fun, actually, to go back and kind of refreshing to just be like, they're magical beings.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's kind of like they can do it. I don't know. Like, sometimes they just, like, spread good vibes. Sometimes they like, light pine cones on fire and throw them at wolves. Like, it's very. Just like, whatever they need to be.

[Craig]

So it's. It makes more set in a way, it makes more sense when you do read this and you're like, oh, they're like, of a. Of kind of a class of magical being that has always existed. And, like, that is interesting. And it maybe is a bit of a piece with, like, the witches from.

[Andrew]

From

[Craig]

Wicked. And what is this. What is it called? What's the original thing called wizard of Oz? Like. Like, those. Like, there's not, like, a witch school in the same way. Like, they're just. I don't know, they're just like magical beings, you know? I don't know. Well, the novel Wicked changes all that anyway.

[Andrew]

But my favorite thing that I learned about actually, as I was researching this is originally Tolkien wanted to call one of the, like, sub classes of elves gnomes.

[Craig]

Come on.

[Andrew]

It had a It had a, like a root in some old word that meant something that he liked. But by the time he was dabbling in this, like, he recognized that like, garden gnomes were the thing that people associated gnomes with. And so he just like, I can't.

[Craig]

You got scooped.

[Andrew]

Is ruined. This word is ruined. I can't use it anymore.

[Craig]

Before we move on, the one thing I like about when Sauron is described in this chapter, they say that he is only less evil than Melkor in that he was willing to serve another. Like, one of the big things of Melkor is that he's, you know, off on his own. He's away from Iluvatar. And Sauron would be as bad as him, except that he is at least like, has a form of allegiance that he participates in. So let's do the chapters one through three of the Quintusilmarillion. Andrew.

[Andrew]

Okay. My favorite of these is two, which is about the dwarves.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

I'm curious to hear what you think about the other. The other stuff.

[Craig]

Chapter one is pretty quick of the beginning of days. There was a war and it ended when Tulka scared off Melkor.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's very like, yeah, all the, all the Valar came in, they were doing stuff. There's a big war. The elves don't know about it. So I don't know what to tell you because it's all like told through this amputated frame character who does and does not exist.

[Craig]

The big thing for these three chapters building towards chapter three, where the elves are finally like quote unquote born, is the Valar. Can't wait for the elves to come. They're just so.

[Andrew]

Also, they don't know when. They don't know when.

[Craig]

Christmas morning they're throwing a party, but they don't know when it's about to start. So like chapter one, they found the

[Andrew]

presents in their parents closet and they know what they are, but they can't play with them until Christmas.

[Craig]

So chapter one is them like getting the world ready. They scare off Melkor. Yavanna plants big trees. Illuin and Ormal. There are big lamps on them for forever.

[Andrew]

Big old lamps. Big old lamps.

[Craig]

They have a big feast and then they go to sleep. And Melkor sneaks into Middle Earth and builds Utumnu or Utumno.

[Andrew]

Utumno. A big fort.

[Craig]

A big bad fort underground.

[Andrew]

A lot of stuff, A lot of stuff about Melkor. And I know that this book and all the stuff in it like predates Lord of the Rings, but if you're Reading it as it was published as a sequel to Lord of the Rings. A lot of Melkor stuff is just like, what if all that Sauron stuff. But he was just like before and worse.

[Craig]

Well, yeah, what if there was Barad

[Andrew]

Dur, but it was like a different stronghold and it was so bad.

[Craig]

Yeah. And it's so bad that it just starts killing stuff by existing. I do like this. That, like the. Not only when they were shaping the world is Melkor like kind of messing with everything, which is kind of what gives the. The world. It's like topographical personality. Here he breaks these big lamps. There's like fire. It reshapes continents. It like breaks up the symmetry of Arda that they had created. And he escapes. And then because they're like, little island got destroyed. The Valar, it's like rich people facing urban blight just like, flee to their enclave.

[Andrew]

They hire a bunch of bodyguards and they build a big fence and they keep all the riffraff out.

[Craig]

They get in their big Escalades and they drive over the mountains to the west and they establish Valinor, which is there.

[Andrew]

Melkor moved into autumn. There goes the neighborhood.

[Craig]

Neighborhood. We can't have mass transit on the way to.

[Andrew]

Yeah, we can't. We can't build mass transit to Middle Earth. All the people from autumn are going to come over here.

[Craig]

And so the illusion NIMBY gods are. Is like, he's getting ready to make the elves and the men and all the Valar are waiting in their little city, Valinor for it. Iluvatar is like, hey, I'm gonna make these elves. They're gonna call themselves the Quendi. They're gonna be like the Ainor. The men shall be restless. They shall be mortal. Mortality is its own gift. And that's how the chapter ends. I want to read to you. Is this the beginning of the chapter about where it talks about the dwarves? Andrew?

[Andrew]

Is it beginning chapter two?

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. It is told that in their beginning, the dwarves were made by Owlay in the darkness of Middle Earth. For so greatly did Ally desire the coming of the children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfillment of the designs of Illuvitar. Another passage that I just made a comment that said, hell, yeah. Like, I just like this a lot.

[Andrew]

I. As a. From my read as a kid, I think this was the first chapter that I was really like, oh, this is cool.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Andrew]

I like this because it's. Because you Spend the. The first two little sections of the book and then the first chapter hearing all about the children of Illuvitar. Like, God made these two kinds of people and one was the Elves and one was the Men. And they each have their own little thing and it's fine.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But, like, where are the Hobbits? And one thing about the Silmarillion is it never really does, like, describe to any satisfactory extent, like, where the Hobbits come from or what they are. They're just kind of like little men, I think.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Mostly in, like, the grand designs of Illuvitar. And like, part of the. Part of the point of Halflings is that they can be adjacent to big events and the big movers and shakers don't see them as significant enough to pay attention to them. And that's why they are, like, central to the, like, downfall of Sauron and the end of the Third Age and whatever.

[Craig]

And why. And. And why Lord of the Rings is so, like, powerful a tale to anyone in the human world that we live in. Reading it, where you're like, wow, this big world was changed by people who the world doesn't even see. Right?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But if you're coming into this, like, where the Hobbits at? You're not gonna find a lot.

[Craig]

Play Hobbits.

[Andrew]

Play Hobbits. But the Dwarves, the Dwarves who are not Illuvitar, they are this. They're these kind of imitation golem things made by Aule, who loves to make stuff his pleasures in the making. He's not trying to make these things so he can have dominion over them. He wants to teach. He saw the cool stuff that Iluvatar had planned and he's like, I can't wait anymore. I gotta make my own. I gotta make my own boys. He did. And so he does make his own boys.

[Craig]

He makes. And. And he knows that the world is scary, so he makes them strong and, like, makes them so tall and sturdy,

[Andrew]

he, like, maxes out their strength and their constitution. He did make seven of Charisma is their dumpster.

[Craig]

Why did he as.

[Andrew]

As a people.

[Craig]

He did make seven of them. Do we think that Tolkien saw Snow White?

[Andrew]

I don't know about. I don't know about.

[Craig]

Seven is just an interesting number. I'm not.

[Andrew]

I'm not sure where seven comes from. It is the number of. Of like, of rings for the door for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Yeah, It's. It's their thing. But so they are made, then. They don't really. They don't really do anything. They're kind of just basically like weird little puppets that Ally is made.

[Craig]

Yes. And then.

[Andrew]

And then Illuvatar shows up. He's like, man, la. You're trying. You're trying to make something like, I made it, but I'm God and you're just a little guy.

[Craig]

What's the scene where Will Ferrell's anchorman is, like, kind of mad. Kind of mad at his dog for eating all that cheese? Also impressed.

[Andrew]

I don't know, man.

[Craig]

I think that's what it is. And that's sort of.

[Andrew]

Well, so it's. Illuvatar is not impressed by Ally making dwarves. What Iluvatar is impressed by is when Iluvatar comes in and he says, oh, you're smoking cigarettes.

[Craig]

Smoke the whole pack.

[Andrew]

I'm gonna make you smoke the whole pack. Well, he's. He says, you. Oh, well, you made this thing in, like, opposition to my will. Please, please dispose of these things that you've made.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And. And Aule is very like, man, I was just so excited for. For your children. And I didn't mean any. I didn't mean any offense by, like. He's responding the opposite of how Melkor would respond.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

If.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

If confronted with something like this. And so he raises up his hammer to destroy the dwarves that he's made. And the dwarves cower from his hammer

[Craig]

because they have life. They don't want to die. Yes.

[Andrew]

Iluvatar has said, well, it's cool that you're sorry. And so because of that, I'm gonna let the dwarves exist and they're gonna be their own thing. But your kids and my kids, they're not gonna get along.

[Craig]

No. And your kids have to wait until my kids show up. They're stoned now.

[Andrew]

They cannot be first. They cannot be first.

[Craig]

But it is like. It's sort of an Abraham thing, right? Where he's like, kill him. And when he goes to kill him and it. He's like, it's fine, don't kill him.

[Andrew]

You pass the test. It's fine. But it. But it is what I, as a person coming into this, looking for more Lord of the Rings. It's like, oh, here's a creation version of why elves and dwarves do not get along. And it makes it in a way more powerful that Legolas and Gimli are good time pals because their God dads designed them to not get along. And they've gotten along in spite of.

[Craig]

Well, and it's interesting to consider this in as we as you said a lot like in contrast to Melkor, which the book has spent a lot of time like driving home why he is such a bad boy and a rebel. And here's Aule doing kind of the good version of rebellion and getting away with it mostly.

[Andrew]

I did not desire such lordship. I desired things other than I am to love and to teach them so that they too might perceive the beauty of E which thou has caused to be. How are we pronouncing E? A?

[Craig]

I was saying A or ea on top.

[Andrew]

Yeah, no, that's fine, that's fine, it's fine. But basically like, yeah, I just made these dwarves so they can see how cool the world you made is.

[Craig]

Yep, dad, yep. Well, and there's. There's a thing in maybe the prior chapter that talks about how the Valar are not supposed to over the firstborn and the followers are not meant to be kings of them particularly.

[Andrew]

That's why. That's why Melkor is bad. Yes, because that's what the whole thing that he wants.

[Craig]

Yes. And so like that's another interesting. Like rather than you look at the Greek pantheon and like those gods expect worship and expect, you know, some sort of sacrifice and things like that. Like that does not seem to be what's going on here, which is kind of interesting. Yavana is upset because these little stone dudes are probably never gonna love trees because they were born in mountains and they will. They're gonna love to chop and build things.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And she goes to Manway, I think. Right. And they consult the songs and they're like, well, we can find some spirits to put into the trees who will speak for the trees like the Lorax do.

[Andrew]

Like the Lorax.

[Craig]

And I think, I guess this is going to be the ends, right? Like is this the creation of ants or something like it?

[Andrew]

I don't know if it's exactly. There are so many different kinds of like living trees. But yeah, I think, I think you could read it as ends if you wanted to.

[Craig]

They say the shepherds of the trees at one point and I don't.

[Andrew]

Yeah, that's. That's very antish.

[Craig]

That felt very entish to me. So that was kind of neat. But it does end with nonetheless, they will have need of wood, says Owlay in a like of men. And like all of the other creatures that are going to be born.

[Andrew]

And yet you participate in society. Curious.

[Craig]

Chapter three of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor. Andrew, what is happening as everyone waits for these Babies to arrive.

[Andrew]

We've had this. We've had this big war, right? And we had the. We had the lamps and they were providing a bunch of light and I was super sick. And it was making all the plants and the beasts and stuff grow in Arda and just kind of generally getting the world ready so that the children of Illuvatar could come into it and exist in it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

But then Melkor crime. And he busted them. He busted the lamps. And it's all dark.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And the Valar are like, this sucks. I'm gonna go make my own cool island.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

With flashback and hookers. And there are. But, But. But the whole time there. There are Valar who are like, we don't. You know, the children of Illuvatar are not here yet. But we don't you think we should go and make it so that they do not wake up in the horrible darkness of our evil brother Melkor in,

[Craig]

like, the Biff future? Like, they just. We can't let them go, like. And let.

[Andrew]

I think it's mostly like Olmo is a big one because he's the. He's like. He's not like the.

[Craig]

You know, he's a cool guy. And Yavon is going over there to check on all the gardens all the time.

[Andrew]

Yeah. And I think, like, not Tulkas, but the other one. Yeah, he, like, he. He just goes and he rides around like there's some Valar who maintain a closer connection to this land, even though they've all, like, kind of formally abandoned it for the time being to, like, go and lick their wounds and prepare and rest and whatever. And it is, you know, they are talking about, we, you know, we got it. We gotta go. We gotta go get the world ready for the elves to come into it. But they. You know, they do not. They do. Unlike Julie Taymor, they do not turn off the dark before the elves wake up.

[Craig]

No, they do put stars in the sky.

[Andrew]

They do put stars in the sky. But the elves. The elves wake up in darkness, and only the stars are there.

[Craig]

They call themselves the Quendi, which means that they speak with voices. They're also called the Eldar for being the stars.

[Andrew]

But the ch. The children of Louvatar be here.

[Craig]

Yep. And they're here.

[Andrew]

The elves have.

[Craig]

Elves just entered the chat Sil song Win. And there. There's like a. There's like a. Who was the guy who went into South America on a horse? And like, the legend is that, like, the indigenous folks there were like, who is this man who is Quetzalcoatl here? I. I don't believe this has actually happened because I feel. It feels like it's a very colonial version of the first encounter narrative. But they do have, like, a negative reaction, the elves do, when they see aroma on his horse.

[Andrew]

Google's not. Google's not.

[Craig]

Not helping you. And I like this bit where, like, they're kind of scared of him on his horse. And then Melkor something. Melkor's essence or something is like, yeah, he is spooky, isn't he? I'm gonna steal some of you, and you're all gonna blame him for when some of you go missing and. Which makes Orome feel bad, of course. And it also means that Melkor can make what, Andrew?

[Andrew]

You make orcs, baby. Yes.

[Craig]

The orcs. They're not the Uruk. Hai.

[Andrew]

No, those are a specific kind of other Orc. It's just like. Or Orcs are corrupted elves. Corrupted elves is the takeaway. And it's. There is a passage. I don't remember if it's in one of the chapters or in one of the, like, earlier sections. It's just talking about, like, the. The valar and how they relate to each other. But in. In the same way as Melkor, like, kind of starts with what he believes are good aims, and then, like, descends into. To darkness and hatred and ever, like, his. He starts with this ability to create and this desire to create. But because he becomes so jealous and so, like, overcome with all this negative stuff, he gets to a point where he can only create things in, like, mockery.

[Craig]

Yeah, sure.

[Andrew]

Things that other. Other people have created.

[Craig]

Yes.

[Andrew]

And so he's, you know, the Balrogs, he didn't create because they're, like Mayar who just, like, followed him. And then the orcs, like, his. His most enduring, like, evil grunts that he. That he's made. He, like, the. The cannon fodder of every evil guy who follows after him.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

He didn't make them either. He just took. He took the children of Illuvitar and he corrupted them because that's the only thing he can do anymore.

[Craig]

Yep. So Manway is like, we got to kick that guy's butt. And they do the fighting reshapes the geography of the world again. Tolkien wrestles him, and they tie him up.

[Andrew]

Sick. That's why I think of him as Diomedes. Is like, he's a Tulkis. Is not a guy who you, like, think of, like, even if. Even if you've read the Silmarillion A couple of times. You don't know, like, you know, years after, you're not thinking like, oh, Tolkien, he's a guy who.

[Craig]

I remember the people I need to meet the people. If there are people on AO3 writing Tulkus fic, I need to hear from you. Why.

[Andrew]

But yes. And then you get into the book and you're reading Tulkus like, Tus is sick.

[Craig]

Well, again, like, Tulus did wrestle Melkor. So he's.

[Andrew]

He's like a cool dude who's good at wrestling. And again, he does not. He's not great to. To have a conversation with, but he is just like, good at fighting.

[Craig]

I think they. When in his introductory paragraph, I think Tolkien is even like, you would not go to him for counsel.

[Andrew]

Yes, that. That's. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Craig]

It's like, he's.

[Andrew]

He's not a shoulder to cry on. But if you do need. If you do need. Somebody punched. Tus is the one go to for that puncher.

[Craig]

They cast Melkor into the prison in Mandos and they invite the elves to Valinor because they're so worried about them. They love them so much.

[Andrew]

But again, they will not build mass transit because they do not want anybody to come from the pits of Latumno to Valinor.

[Craig]

And the elves are a little skeptical at first because some of them were kind of scared of Arome and the big fighting.

[Andrew]

So the elves start getting split up into little subcategories. And in this chapter, most of the subcategories are related to how quickly and how enthusiastically, fantastically they. They obey this summon. And I don't even know if obey is the right word because the whole point is supposed to be that the Valar are not supposed to, like, seek domination over these guys, but, like, how. How quickly they come west, basically.

[Craig]

Yes. There are. Most of them go like Ingwe, Finway and Elway are the, like, kings that go as ambassadors. Then they come back and bring their people. The Avari are the ones who stayed in Middle Earth, Right. Is that correct?

[Andrew]

I believe so. Not. Not the ones who just, like, take a long time, but the ones who stay.

[Craig]

Yes, because. And then there are the. The Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri. All three of those go. The Teleri take the longest.

[Andrew]

Teleri are the foot draggers. The Noldor are the ones who love making stuff.

[Craig]

Yep.

[Andrew]

And they are. I think we already know from Lord of the Rings that they are the. The. The specific kind of elf who they Were like, the closest with the Dwarves, and they're the ones who are the most involved in the actual, like, forging of the Rings.

[Craig]

Okay, that's all. That's all.

[Andrew]

No more stuff. Yeah.

[Craig]

Okay. And then I guess among the Telleri or among some other group, Lenwei and some other people break off and head south to be by the water. And those become the Nandor. They're also going to hang out in Middle Earth.

[Andrew]

The relentless.

[Craig]

And that's it. That the. The elves have been split up among those who have gone west and those who have lingered in Middle Earth for various reasons.

[Andrew]

If you're steeped in Lord of the Rings lore, I think you'll recognize some names in here. Like, there are definitely some very old elf characters who basically exist to like, facilitate travel between Middle Earth and Valinor. For the elves who are like, I'm tired of this. I'm going to. Into the west. Finally.

[Craig]

I know that there's. I know that going west is like, I watched Return of the King. I know that they ended four times and one of the endings was that a bunch of elves went west. Like, I. I get.

[Andrew]

And you also know people, sometimes people pass into the west and remain Galadriel. Like, that's just the thing that happens.

[Craig]

Sure. But this is like an interesting. Also an interesting kind of creation myth where it's like you've got this, you know, race of creatures who are immortal like the Ainur, but they are not as powerful. They are all beautiful and strong. Not as. Not as strong as they used to be, but about just as beautiful forever as I think the book says. But they are also going to become filled with grief through the passage of time. And that they are bound to the full scope of time, barring their, like, death or their, you know, passing west or something.

[Andrew]

And that's, you know, that's always how it's framed in. In Lord of the Rings is you. You are the. The Third Age is this time of, like, elves are still in the world. Elves are still, like beings of influence, but slowly, over the course of these, like, millennia, these, these people are just getting tired of being in Middle Earth and like, not. Not enjoying the. The beauty and the allure of it to the extent that they once were.

[Craig]

Sure.

[Andrew]

And so finally they get to, like, heed the call and go and go west. And so that. That's why it's like such a big deal that when. When characters like Arwen are like, no, actually I'm going to marry a man and I'm gonna. I'm Gonna stay here and I'm gonna die.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And I'm just not. I'm just not gonna get this thing that is my, like, my birthright. Because I have such strong love for this other thing.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Overall, I really enjoyed this. I think these are fun.

[Andrew]

I've had more. Even more fun, like, turning over all the rocks and talking about them and, like, assigning different characters. Different. Yeah, like, different core, like, corollary characters. Yeah.

[Craig]

But I was surprised. Like, I knew it was gonna read a little dry. That first passage that is very, like, you know, for lack of a better word, biblical is a read. It's. It has its challenges to parse. But I was pleasantly surprised by, like, nah, it doesn't have the same narrative thrust as Lord of the Rings at all because it's not telling a, you know, mortal level human story. But it had a little more character than I expected, just having the. It had some of what I like about the Odyssey and the Iliad in terms of, like, the gods talking to one another, and they have their own little goals and aims that help to shape the world. Like, I think that's kind of cool. Yeah.

[Andrew]

And.

[Craig]

And that it is, because it is a history rather than an epic poem that the gods just feature in the. This part of the creation story where, like, the whims of the gods are, like, setting up what is and isn't possible in the world is just fun. It's just a fun. As you said, it's like. It's fun that dwarves and elves don't get along because these specific characters made the choices they made as opposed to, like. And let's talk about a political conflict between elves.

[Andrew]

Political conflict or like, some old thing that nobody remembers the details of. It was just like, like, no, this, like, literal thing happened where this guy and God talked. And, like, Illuvitar so often is. Does not want to come in and, like, tell. No, I want to do. He just kind of wants to let them figure it out. So when. When Illuvitar does come down and be like, hey, actually, you did something so far off the course of what I wanted that I need to. I need to come down and talk to you personally about it. It's like, it's a big deal.

[Craig]

I know we're running long. Andrew, have one more question.

[Andrew]

We are, but it's fine.

[Craig]

What? Are there baby elves? Do they all just come out as elves?

[Andrew]

There.

[Craig]

There's baby elves, there's baby elves.

[Andrew]

I mean, do they, like. Probably not in this, like, first wave. I don't think they all woke up as babies.

[Craig]

But elves can. Elves can procreate. Is that a thing?

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Elves are. Elves are born after the first, like.

[Craig]

Okay, that's what I was coming of

[Andrew]

the children of Illumina.

[Craig]

I was double checking that there was not a finite number of elves that had created.

[Andrew]

No, no.

[Craig]

Like first age.

[Andrew]

No, no, no, no. Like elves that we know, like Legolas and whoever. Like, they. They don't exist yet.

[Craig]

They haven't been born yet. Okay, that's helpful to. To understand because it. That's kind of. It was kind of unclear. I was like, I don't know. Just a bunch of elves came out of the ground and then they all saw the stars and then they started walking places. So I wasn't quite sure what the rules were here.

[Andrew]

Well, and I don't, like, instinctively, you might think, oh, well, these characters who never die and never age, they must just have like a million kids. But no, I guess also there's no biological clock. So I bet a lot of elves are just like, I'll get to it later.

[Craig]

They do it when they want.

[Andrew]

Yeah, whatever, man. I'll do it. I do it when I want. I'll do it when I'm done looking at this tree.

[Craig]

Yeah, man, they love.

[Andrew]

I'm gonna look at this tree for 1500 more years.

[Craig]

There was a whole passage where Yavana made some really dope trees in Valinor that, like, didn't really like. It kind of slid off my brain. I was just like, these trees.

[Andrew]

These trees are going to be a big deal. These, these trees are going to be.

[Craig]

These are the trees that, like, one is always blooming and then the next one blooms and then it's like the

[Andrew]

sun tree and the moon tree, basically.

[Craig]

Okay, okay.

[Andrew]

Laurelin and Telperium.

[Craig]

No, those are the two that milk were knocked down. Oh, no. I guess these are the. No, these are the lamps.

[Andrew]

You're thinking about the lamps.

[Craig]

Okay.

[Andrew]

Trees of Valinor are Telperion and Laurelin, and they are different.

[Craig]

All right, They're a big deal, but the deal.

[Andrew]

I don't. Do you want anything spoiled for you?

[Craig]

No, I don't. We'll talk about when we get there.

[Andrew]

All right, Remember, think. Recommit these trees to memory because they're going to be. There's going to be a lot of stuff about these trees.

[Craig]

I'll go back and recap about these trees. All right, well, thanks for talking about this with me, Andrew. I'm excited to keep going. I had a good read.

[Andrew]

Was fun. And I hope that they all continue to be.

[Craig]

This one we shall see. But in the next episode, episode two, we are going to talk about chapters four through ten of the Quintessil Marillion. I don't know what that covers. It just seems like it might be an awkward breaking point. We're doing it mostly by page count, but it'll probably be fine.

[Andrew]

We're just doing a live. And by live I mean we're recording it and then editing it and then eventually people will hear it. Yeah.

[Craig]

But if you have a favorite from the early parts of the Silmarillion that we haven't talked about, please send us an email overdupodmail.com hit us up on social media with your, you know your favorite quotes, your who is standing Melcore? Please tell us at Overdue Pod thanks

[Andrew]

to Nick Loran shipping in the Silmarillion so far.

[Craig]

Yeah. Which of the alone valar do you wish would like take a myar lover like please just let us know who else is a secret Gandalf? You gotta tell me.

[Andrew]

We gotta find the secret.

[Craig]

If you're a secret Gandalf, you have to tell me. Otherwise it's entrapment. Otherwise it's thanks to Nick Langez who composed our theme music. Andrew if folks want to know more about the show, where do they go?

[Andrew]

Overdue Podcast.com's Internet website. You can find more information about the long read stuff and the regular normal show outside of this show that we do called Overdue where we read regular books and not weird Hobbit Bibles. Patreon.com/overdue pod if you're listening to this in in June of 2025, you already know what's up. You don't have, you don't have to listen to this part. You can kind of zone out for a minute. But if you're hearing this in sometime in like 2026 or whatever in the

[Craig]

third age you could it you could

[Andrew]

have been hearing this in the second age instead if you had gone to patreon.com overduepod and donated you. So then you listen, you get stuff and you also support the show.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And you buy stuff that we need and you keep it possible to keep making it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

So you both, you both get tangible things and the like intangible benefit of helping somebody else make beautiful art where you can talk about how the clumps is related to the tale of the first ever actor.

[Craig]

That's true.

[Andrew]

So like you and listen, I. I don't know. I don't listen to everything, but I'm fairly confident that you are not going to find that anywhere else.

[Craig]

That is true.

[Andrew]

I don't think you were ever going to listen to a Tolkien podcast that's going to talk about the clumps other than ours.

[Craig]

How many clumps were there? And in the.

[Andrew]

Probably seven.

[Craig]

In the darkness we found them.

[Andrew]

Seven clumps.

[Craig]

All right, thanks, everybody, for listening. Andrew, what do we say at the end of every episode of the the Zan?

[Andrew]

And we will pass into the west and remain Andrew and Craig. Bye. That was a Headgum podcast. Hi, I am Mandy Moore. Sterling K. Brown.

[Craig]

And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast that was Us now on Headgum. Each episode we're gonna go into a deep dive from our show. This is us.

[Andrew]

That's right.

[Craig]

We're gonna go episode by episode. We're also gonna pepper in episodes with

[Andrew]

different GU writers and casting directors.

[Craig]

Are we going to cry? Yes, a little bit. Are we going to laugh a lot? A whole lot.

[Andrew]

That's what I'm hoping, man. Listen to. That was us on your favorite podcast app.

[Craig]

Or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify.

[Andrew]

New episodes every Tuesday.