← Pilates Business Podcast
Pilates Business Podcast
From 40 Classes a Week to 20 Studios: The Real Truth About Growing a Profitable Pilates Business with Todd Kuhn, Founder of The Core Collab
00:30:53
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- [00:00]
Sarah Glanfield
Today's guest, Todd Keown co founded one of the first Group Reformer Studios in Australia back in 2001, well before Group Reformer was ever even a category. He then went on to franchise a sister brand to 20 locations. He spent two decades on the studio floor and now has moved into manufacturing the equipment himself. So if you want to understand where this industry has been, where it's going and how to build a studio that lasts, you're going to want to listen in to this episode. Well, hi there.
- [00:35]
I'm Sarah Glanfield. I'm a business and marketing strategist just for boutique fitness studio owners like you. If you're ready to be inspired and make a bigger impact, you're in the right place. All you need are a few key strategies, the right mindset and some support along the way. Join me as I share the real life insights that will help you grow a sustainable and profitable studio. This is the Pilates Business Podcast.
- [01:07]
Welcome back to the Pilates Business Podcast. I'm so glad you're here today and I have got a very special guest on joining us and I think it's we're going to be talking about so many really interesting perspectives and insights into what's been happening in the industry. We all know that Pilates is booming, the competition is intense and likely the studio owners that will win long term are the ones who understand really what drives success in a boutique fitness studio business in the Pilates world. And Todd Kuhn is an industry veteran. He's been in and around boutique fitness, boutique Pilates studios for well over, we don't want to say how many years.
- [01:54]
Todd Keown
No, please don't.
- [01:56]
Sarah Glanfield
But he pioneered the first group performer studio in Australia. He is a co founder of the Core Collab and creator of the Sculpt former which is now launching inside of the Sculpt Me studios in Texas. And I wanted to bring on Todd. We had connected a few weeks ago, a few months ago, and I wanted to bring him on to share with us his perspective over the years of seeing what he's seen and perhaps even some insights on where he sees things going. Because I think these types of conversations with folks who've been in the industry for such a long time from this perspective of being a business owner, business builder, an entrepreneur is so incredibly fun to listen and hear about. So welcome. Tod, I'm glad you're here.
- [02:43]
Todd Keown
Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.
- [02:45]
Sarah Glanfield
Okay, so let's go back to the beginning. You opened one of the first Group Reformer studios in Australia.
- [02:52]
Todd Keown
Yes.
- [02:52]
Sarah Glanfield
What was the Industry, like back then where you were. And how did that all come about? Because obviously that was a new concept back then.
- [03:02]
Todd Keown
Definitely. Yeah. Interesting story. So we started actually running Pilates Mac classes in halls, which really took off. Everyone was wanting to do just Pilates. It was like the 2000, 2001. Everyone had seen what was happening in the US and they wanted a piece of the pie. So we ran a lot of classes in scout halls and community halls throughout our town. We had at one stage about 40 locations or 40 classes per week, had other instructors teaching. But at that time there weren't really that many people actually teaching or that were trained correctly to be able to teach, especially in a group environment. And then we just had the idea that. Or maybe we could do this similar concept, but in. In a reformer style studio where we had. At that stage when we opened, we actually had 20 reformers straight up. And people thought we were just crazy. And we kind, we kind of thought we were a bit crazy as well because everyone was saying, this is a fad. It'll be gone in two years. You're crazy. Signing a lease. But we went ahead and got into it and that's sort of kicked it off.
- [04:13]
Sarah Glanfield
Kicked it off. So back then there was really no playbook. It wasn't like anyone else was doing that. Right. So you had to figure it all out on your own.
- [04:25]
Todd Keown
It's interesting I look at this now and think about how the landscapes change so much from like, we were at that stage one. There was a lot of education required of what Pilates was. We would have people calling the phone and saying, I want to do this Pilates or Pilates and any kind of variations of the name.
- [04:45]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, pilots. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:48]
Todd Keown
And we were, we were, we were doing like 40,000 letterbox drops of, you know, brochures into people's mailboxes around our area every two weeks. And that was really that. And people driving by or people referring were the only means of getting people into the studio. Yeah.
- [05:07]
Sarah Glanfield
Because there was no Facebook or Instagram. There was very. Did you have a website?
- [05:14]
Todd Keown
We had a website and it was average. Like there was. There was no education there. No one knew that, you know, capture people's details. And it was literally like we were running little ads in the local newspaper and people were calling. And when we first started, people were calling that the message bank was full. And then we had no means to get back to people and you'd have to call them. And it was on home phones most of the time. Crazy. Crazy, really, to see how far we've come in 25 years.
- [05:48]
Sarah Glanfield
Such a different world, truly. Right. Such a different world. But you know, there must have been some lessons and I'm guessing given the trajectory of what then happened, that you learned early on and sort of perhaps habits that you learned early on that have served you well since then.
- [06:06]
Todd Keown
Definitely, definitely.
- [06:07]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah.
- [06:08]
Todd Keown
I think one thing that, one thing that we always struggled with was that even like now there's coaches in different niches and getting the understanding from a really tight niche where we were having a lot of the time we were learning from people that were like big box gyms and that we were trying to get coaching from them and it wasn't really targeted and specific. So we were trying to then overlay things that big box gyms were using and then doing the same principles in a small boutique style, even though it was large format boutique style. And even languaging the way that we would speak to people is different to the way traditional gym speaks to people. But really all the main thing it got down to was community and service.
- [06:58]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, absolutely. Fundamentals, right, the fundamentals. And obviously that worked because you then went on to add a couple more locations.
- [07:05]
Todd Keown
Yes, right, yeah, we did. We, we added two more locations in four or five or four or no. Probably took six, seven years actually to actually get it. The first one after the second location we opened only after a couple of years, but then the next one took about five years to get to that point.
- [07:24]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, amazing. So then you kind of took a little bit of a change in direction. You went later on, you began late. Much later you opened another brand. Right. And decided to move into a different business model. So you went into franchising those studios.
- [07:44]
Todd Keown
So that's interesting in itself. So the first studios that we had were more health clubs. The original name was Pilates Etc because we had Pilates, yoga. We had a little gym there and we did group fitness. And then. But I. It was 6,000 square or 6 to 8,000 square feet. Was the footprint.
- [08:05]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah.
- [08:05]
Todd Keown
And huge by it. It is huge. And the rent was just insane. And I after, in 2013 when we got the second second brand, I was defied, defiant on not spending a lot of money on the rent at that stage. It was like minimum 200,000 per year rent. And I was, I'm never doing that again. I'm never entering a 10 year lease. I'm not doing any of this. So I thought, okay, how could we do the same kind of thing on a smaller scale? So the first location of our of rebalance was only 110 square meters, so like 1200 square feet. It was, it was, it was like sardines in there. There was 10 reformers in one room and we had this, this triangular room that we ran our yoga and bar classes from that really probably shouldn't have fit more than 10 people in, but would at times have 25 people in there.
- [09:02]
Sarah Glanfield
Right.
- [09:03]
Todd Keown
That was started really just thinking, okay, well if we have one location, this will be great. And then we actually had a really great business coach who was again, he was from the fitness industry, but we were kind of in, we were implementing or we were looking at the content that he was providing us and thinking, how can we tweak this for our market? And we, we went to a mastermind with him and he said, what's your, what's your vision? And that was the first time that we had looked at it and thought, well hang on, we've got an opportunity here to actually open multiple locations and have more impact on, on, on our target market.
- [09:42]
Sarah Glanfield
Right, right. So then you went on and was it. That was when you started to think about the franchise model as the next step.
- [09:49]
Todd Keown
That was really the first time that I had because I had spent so much time wearing all of these hats and I was teaching classes, trying to manage do sales, everything in between. We did this little like a, a summary or like the mathematics of what, what tasks are you doing and what could you replace that for? And so the, the conference was actually in Hawaii and we were sitting there and my wife said, started writing it out and she was like, you're teaching 25 classes a week plus doing this, this and this. Look at this. We can actually remove like 90% of, of your classes that you're teaching for. It was at that stage it was like 450 or $500. And she was like, this is crazy. Like outsource that and then we can actually focus on growing the business. Which was, took us to the, to the next step of actually going, okay, this is doable.
- [10:46]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, right, right. Let's change gears a little bit. So you then went from running and running studios, franchising studios, to building the equipment. So that's, that's a whole different direction as well.
- [11:01]
Todd Keown
Well, the interesting thing about.
- [11:03]
Sarah Glanfield
Do you like wearing lots of hats?
- [11:04]
Todd Keown
Oh, probably. No, I don't. But then I always seem to. The interesting thing with that is when we first opened in 2001, we had limited access to, to equipment. So we actually started building our own equipment there. And the I think about it now and it's quite hilarious. Like, my grandfather built the carriages of the. And in the first class that I taught, a man in the class pushed back and my grandfather hadn't bolted the shoulder rest down properly and the shoulder rest fell off and he went straight through it. So, like little funny stories like that that I think back on, I'm like, wow, I've come, come so far. So we're always making the equipment and it's always been my goal of looking at, you know, like people buy into a franchise thinking that I'm going to sign up here and the brand is going to do all the work for me and I don't have to do anything. So I've always been about, with partners or franchisees, anyone, how can you get started for the lowest amount of money? So you get the best return on investment. So we actually DID equipment in 2001, and then in 2003 we were approached by, in Australia, a large fitness supplier, and their goal was to start rolling out these group reformer studios. But again, in 2003, there was limited appetite. I think in total we sold about 300 units. But everyone just thought again, oh, this is just a fad. It'll pass. And then from there we've just kept developing on the equipment side of things and then sold out of the studios and continue doing the equipment.
- [12:49]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, yeah. And so you work now. That is your core business.
- [12:55]
Todd Keown
It is, yeah.
- [12:56]
Sarah Glanfield
At core, Collab is studio equipment.
- [12:59]
Todd Keown
Yes.
- [13:01]
Sarah Glanfield
And what is it that you kind of learned from being in the equipment world? Because it's quite a different world to the teaching world and the studio ownership world. You know, it's a, It's a different, different ball game. Right.
- [13:13]
Todd Keown
One thing that I, I've probably wearing too many hats always. I've always been the teacher and then the mechanic and the, the whatever. I, I laugh because I'm the least handy person in the world, but the only thing that I know is Pilates equipment. I can fix anything. I can see it and go, oh, yep, that'll. That's what that needs to be. But it's, it's. It's a. Interesting change. I like it because it's all. It's. I'm dealing with people that are at that excitement phase where they're like, okay, I'm ready to get started and I want to get started and I want to buy this equipment. And listening to people's visions and listening to their dreams, that, that sort of excites me so. And now I don't have to deal with the clients every day. And it's, it's different. It's different.
- [14:02]
Sarah Glanfield
It's different. Yeah. So you work with, you manufacture studios all over the world. Right. And you say, you say you speak to studio owners who are typically at the early stages of their journey or perhaps as they're about to expand and into a next phase of growth, as it were. So you know, you're having conversations about all sorts of different things. What do you see? Do you see a lot of the, a lot of the same conversations or concerns or mistakes that studio owners make often in those early years that you could share?
- [14:35]
Todd Keown
Yes, definitely. There's so many, like I hear so many people saying things to me that I was saying to myself 20 years ago or 10 years ago, five years ago even, because everything changes so much. But one thing that I find and when I was talking to you previously, I said is finding a mentor, like actually find someone that has done it and can help you building the systems around running a studio. Because it's total different ball game. You might be the best instructor in the world, but the, the skills that you need to run a studio are totally different to the skills that you have as an instructor.
- [15:15]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah. So I couldn't agree more.
- [15:17]
Todd Keown
Yeah, yeah, that's so I'm very big on letting people know that. Listen, this is, it sounds great. You love teaching, I get that. But when you're wearing five hats in a day, you need to make sure that you've got the systems in place to, to. But the, the next step from that is that's good to know that. But then it's how do they do it?
- [15:37]
Sarah Glanfield
Right, right. You know, and that's a lot of what we do inside of the program that I, I do with my studio owners is, is that how do you do it and implement it? And then you know, everything you as you know from running your studios and, and from all the work that you do with, with studio owners, you know, every studio is slightly different. Every studio owner has slightly different levels of expertise and different things and talents and natural tendencies to want to be in different parts of the business. Right. Like some people would, would not want to do what you've done and would want to be client facing forever and ever and ever. And I think, you know, so it's also about how do you apply it into your unique situation, which definitely also a challenge. Right?
- [16:15]
Todd Keown
Definitely. Yeah, definitely.
- [16:17]
Sarah Glanfield
So where do you find. You know what, I should go back. Given your sort of different hats that you have worn, where do you, what do you. And now having spoken that you spend A lot of time speaking to newer studios. What is it that you wish someone had told you from the beginning about opening and expanding?
- [16:36]
Todd Keown
The. You got to grow into the skill, the. The new skills. So you can't be set in. As I said, you can't be the best instructor. You need to grow with what roles that you need to take on or you need to hire really well to support the team or yourself to work through that phase of growth. That would probably be the biggest one. I still struggle with that now that. Trying to take on too many. Too many different roles, that it's. It's impossible.
- [17:05]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, you, you know, become the bottleneck, really.
- [17:08]
Todd Keown
Totally.
- [17:08]
Sarah Glanfield
You know, and how it's so frustrating to be in that position.
- [17:11]
Todd Keown
Definitely. Definitely.
- [17:13]
Sarah Glanfield
Right. Yeah. I think there's sort of a. You have to sort of embrace that. That sort of letting go of some things and stepping into other things and knowing that it's sort of. People always talk about, you know, do the hard things or do the things that are least comfortable. But I think that one of the things that I've noticed and tell me what you think that about. You know, those studio owners who seem to continue to grow and their businesses, you know, are kind of go from strength to strength is that they. They get more comfortable with, like, letting go and leaning into the harder things and. And don't sort of shy away from the things that are hard.
- [17:51]
Todd Keown
Definitely, definitely. And again, I find that a lot of people go into it. The conversations that I have anyway are great instructors, and they're thinking that that's going to be the. The. The linchpin for being an amazing studio. And sure, that works well for the first 12 weeks, but then after that they're fatigued and everything else when. When there's pressure on, they crack. Which everyone will.
- [18:21]
Sarah Glanfield
Right, Exactly. And, you know, it's not to say that passion isn't important, because I think it is. Right. Yeah, it's so important, but it's about sort of expanding that skill set, like you said.
- [18:31]
Todd Keown
Definitely. Yeah, definitely.
- [18:33]
Sarah Glanfield
So tell us a little bit about the equipment. Tell me about your sculpt former and what you have been developing and working on.
- [18:41]
Todd Keown
Yeah, obviously with, as I said, the iterations that we've been through since 2001, we kept pretty much the same model till about 2010. And then we've. From there we've gone through so many different variations trying to work out what was the best for our studios, where we had aluminum for some studios and then we changed to wood for other studios and colored wood and different colored upholstery. So we've kind of gone through the ringer of that, and it's just a constant refinement of. Okay, well, this is the feedback that we're getting about this. Oh, okay. We need to change this. We need to improve this. But the. The sculpt former actually came about in 2015. What we were finding with clients is in. In one of our studios, or it was the first one of the second brand. And we. We were finding that people were coming on and they'd do like, let's say couch to 12 weeks, and they would get all of these amazing benefits in 12 weeks. And then they would start being like, oh, you know, this is just getting a little bit like, I feel like I need that next step. So we actually came to the US and saw some studios and what they were doing, and we're like, maybe what we could do with the. Our wood reformer is we could change up our style a little bit so that we had more of a. The modern style of. Of reformer. So we went back and we designed a wood version of what now is the Scott former. But it had a traditional foot bar on the front end and then handlebars on the back end and bigger carriage, wider carriage, more springs, two platforms. So kind of looked similar, but still looked like a traditional reformer. And the goal really was just to try to take people from the 12 weeks to keep them coming by giving them some more challenge standing work or more different variations of planking and everything that really can be done on a traditional former. But it was also larger, so it looked. Looked a little bit more, you know, strong, I guess, even though it was white and gray. Yeah. And that was. That's really how the sculpt form came about. And then we'll. From there, we. We developed the training program that went with that. And then we spent 2018 through to. Oh, or now we're still doing it, but we're doing. We've been doing a lot of training in that method, the sculpt method, throughout Asia. So we've done Korea, Indonesia, China, Thailand. And that's kind of where we. Where we've been for the last few years. And then in 2022, we came here with just a couple of models. And then really in the last 24 months is when we. We launched the Sculpt former over here in its new version.
- [21:35]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah. Exciting.
- [21:36]
Todd Keown
Yeah.
- [21:37]
Sarah Glanfield
And is it designed to be in a studio or is it a home use as well?
- [21:41]
Todd Keown
No. So at the moment, the. The sculpt former. So we do all of the equipment range. So we do a lot of home reformers, which, you know, a lot of people are. It's interesting. I sort of overlay my thought pattern and I'm like, for me, when we've got a reformer at home, but I don't use it, I still go to a class. It's like, so. So many people are looking for that option and I understand that, that, you know, if you're driving 30 minutes or 40 minutes to go to a class and then. Or you're not even able to get in because there's a wait list at the one studio in town or whatever. But. So we've got a large home section. But then the sculpt former is predominantly studios that are looking at what is the new wave. Is this the new wave or is the industry going to do a full circle back to more traditional? I think that's just going to be both. Just keeps expanding and expanding.
- [22:38]
Sarah Glanfield
I agree. And is that what you think? Is that sort of. As you're seeing. Because obviously you see data, you're seeing the numbers, you're seeing the interest. What is. Is that where you're kind of. You're thinking it's. It's gonna head?
- [22:50]
Todd Keown
I. I just think. I think that one thing is that I think the Pilates principles of the old school. Pilates principles are such good principles that can be overlaid into this modern. Modern contour.
- [23:04]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:06]
Todd Keown
Where recently there's been this huge uprise in the modern style, but then the training and the, the foundations haven't been laid. So I think that there's this great opportunity, I say this to everyone that are opening a studio in that style is if you can get the really strong foundations of your traditional Pilates and then overlay the modern practice, then you're onto a winning formula.
- [23:33]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, what, what I, you know, we. Because we have this conversation a lot whenever I have guests on the show and generally when we're having these conversations with all sorts of folks in the industry, at conferences, et cetera, it's like you think, is it going to all collapse and go away? This, like, boom is going to end, you know, And I think, you know, as I'm, you know, it's interesting to hear your perspective and I, I agree. I think, I don't think we're going to see this, like, you know, drop off and disappearance of Pilates at all, but mostly because of the fact that you've been in this industry since 2001 and I've been in this industry since 2008. And we're all still here. And not only are we so here we're seeing every other people join and it's sort of. There is, you know, Pilates is something that is. Everyone can do at every stage of life. Right. And it's useful and helpful and great to do at every stage of life. And so from my perspective, we, we might see some people like, you know, go into other trends that what have you. But I think for the most part because you can, you, you're audience and your, your range of people who can, who are, who are interested and fall in love with Pilates today. Right. In 2026, they're still going to want to do Pilates in 2030 and 2035. So.
- [24:48]
Todd Keown
Exactly.
- [24:49]
Sarah Glanfield
I'm very, I'm really optimistic about the continuation.
- [24:52]
Todd Keown
Like I said in 2001, everyone was saying the fad will be over in two years. And here we are 25 years later and the, it's. The industry just keeps. It's an industry within itself now. It's not like, you know, some subsect, some subsection of the fitness industry. It's actually an industry which is. It's very cool.
- [25:12]
Sarah Glanfield
Very cool. Very cool. Okay, so you're now going to do a full circle and come back to building again. And after everything you built and everything you've done, you're now opening a new studio. Tell us all about why now. But mostly I'm kind of curious about what you're doing differently versus the last couple of times that you've started a studio brand.
- [25:34]
Todd Keown
Yes. Yeah, good. That's a good question. So, so many things, I mean, I always say to everyone, you just constantly, you should be constantly learning, learning about the best practices or whatever. This came about actually when we sold our business, the, the company that bought were a publicly listed company and they gave the option for the franchisees to come across and be part of their brand or overarching brand or go their separate ways. We had two of the franchisees went their separate ways and rebranded. Doing so much work over here in the last couple of years in the US I've just been. Everyone that I was speaking to was saying, you know, this place, they would tell me that a town and it'd be like, oh, there's 100,000 people here, there's two studios in town. What do you think? And I'd be like, well, that's. It's cr. If you've got two studios in town and you've got a captive audience, if you do everything Right. You should have. You should have a very successful business. So I actually was talking to one of the franchisee, the husband, and I said, oh, you know, you guys, you ever think about selling and moving to the U.S. i know that he loves Dallas. And he sort of laughed. And then the next day called me back and said, are you serious? And I said, I am serious. Like, I'm half serious but half joking. And then he was like, well, if you're serious, let's have a deeper conversation about it. And then six months later, they had sold their business and moved over here. And then so just. Yeah, learning from. You know, I'm big on the community, and the. The Paul and Nicole that we're working with, they were very good with their businesses, with their studios, at building that community, because at the end of the day, you can be the best instructor in the world, but if you've got no people coming or you've got a terrible personality that doesn't live the values that your company, you know, promotes, then you're kind of. You. You're in big trouble anyway. So they're. They're the perfect people for it. And just. I think it's interesting even in the markets where, you know, in the Australian market is so, like, probably oversaturated, and everyone is actually kind of knows what they're doing, probably because it's so small. Whereas I've found in the US there's huge opportunity because there's only. There's fewer people that really know what and how to do. So it's like, okay, well, let's give it a go. I don't want to be sitting in 20 years thinking, oh, we should have done that. That was a good opportunity. But same, same things, really. Focusing on community, focusing on giving great classes and the experience, as soon as people walk in the studio, being different to the. The studio that's 100 yards down the road.
- [28:38]
Sarah Glanfield
Yeah. I think it's just critical, you know, and, you know, there is. There is. There is a lot of competition in every possible way for. For parties, but also for wellness dollars in general, you know, so you. You cannot overlook that experience and, you know, and having the skills to be able to know how to use that experience to stand out from the crowd and get you the clients and keep the clients right.
- [29:01]
Todd Keown
Exactly, exactly. Keep coming back.
- [29:04]
Sarah Glanfield
Keep them coming back. Exactly. Well, thank you, Todd, so much for coming on and sharing your story and your journey and your insights. It's been a really interesting conversation, and I'm excited to see what happens next with your studio. I might have you come back and you can share because I have a feeling this is not the end of that endeavor.
- [29:25]
Todd Keown
No, definitely not at all.
- [29:28]
Sarah Glanfield
So why don't you share really quickly where people can learn a little bit more about what you do and yes, yeah.
- [29:34]
Todd Keown
Well, you can find us at www.thecorecollabusa.com and if you're in the Dallas Fort Worth area, come to sculptmetx.com Excellent.
- [29:45]
Sarah Glanfield
Fantastic. Well, thanks again Todd. It was great having you on and we'll speak soon.
- [29:49]
Todd Keown
Will do.
- [29:50]
Sarah Glanfield
For those of you listening, if you enjoyed what you heard and and would like to support us, the best thing to do is to go and click wherever you're listening to this and click that Follow or Subscribe button. Would help to get this podcast out there into our amazing community. To all of those amazing studio owners and teachers who could use a little bit of support and encouragement on their journey in our industry,
- [30:15]
Did you love this episode and want more? Head to spring3.com and check out my free resources that will help you run a profitable and fulfilling studio business. And before you go, one last reminder. There is no one way to do what you do, only your way. So whatever it is that you want to do, create or offer, you've got this. Thanks again for joining me today and have a wonderful rest of your day.
- [30:45]
Sa.