Deodorant, Porn, and Nudes: How to Actually Talk to Your Tween About the Hard Stuff

Summary

Podcast Summary: Raising Good Humans with Dr. Aliza Pressman

Episode Title: “Deodorant, Porn, and Nudes: How to Actually Talk to Your Tween About the Hard Stuff”
Date: May 22, 2026
Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman
Guest: Michelle Icard (Author of "14 Talks by Age 14")

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Overview

In this candid and practical episode, Dr. Aliza Pressman speaks with parenting expert and author Michelle Icard about how to navigate tough conversations with tweens—covering everything from body odor to pornography, sexuality, consent, and sending nudes. The central message is to foster open, shame-free, and collaborative communication as children transition into early adolescence. Icard introduces her “BRIEF” model as a framework for these discussions, emphasizing relationship-building and realistic parental expectations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Do Conversations Change in Early Adolescence?

• Tweens seek independence: Michelle explains that tweens are evolving from parental attachment to peer-focused independence, often developing exclusive language with friends and becoming less interested in discussing things with parents. (01:28)
• Parental shock and loneliness: Many parents are taken aback by how quickly dynamics shift, often interpreting their child’s distancing as rejection.

2. The BRIEF Model for Conversations

What is BRIEF?

Michelle Icard introduces an acronym to guide parents through tough discussions:

• B: Begin peacefully
• R: Relate to your kid
• I: Interview for data
• E: Echo what you hear
• F: Feedback (Advice or boundaries) (03:17–07:46)

Detailed Walkthrough of BRIEF

• Begin Peacefully: Start tangentially or with gentle curiosity.
  Example: Instead of “Are you vaping?” try “What do you think about all the talk around vaping? Do you think adults worry too much?” (04:11)
• Relate: Demonstrate you’re on the same team. Recall your own awkward experiences.
  Quote: “I promise I won’t talk to you the way my parents talked to me.” – Michelle Icard (05:02)
• Interview: Collect information calmly, avoid emotional reactions.
  Tip: “Pretend you’re a district attorney with zero personal stake.” (05:01)
• Echo: Reflect back what your child says, clarify terms and show you’re listening.
  Quote: “It sounds like you’re saying some kids vape, but you’re not interested.” – Michelle Icard (06:35)
• Feedback: Save guidance or boundary-setting for the end. You earn your feedback moment by listening first. (07:46)

3. Reframing “Thorny” Conversations

• Michelle structures “14 Talks by Age 14” around the whole child—not just risk and warning, but also positive and fun topics. The process is designed to be collaborative rather than punitive, with thorny issues integrated thoughtfully. (08:14)

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Topic Deep Dives and Sample Dialogues

A. Taking Care of Yourself—Deodorant and Hygiene

• Concern: Parents often stress over hygiene, fearing it means something about character.
• Reality: It’s just a habit; early adolescence is the training ground for more complex self-care. (13:22)
• Michelle’s Advice: Make compliance effortless (“I bought six deodorants for every room and the car... just grab one when you need it.”) and avoid shaming. (14:41)
• Quote: “It says nothing about who they are as a person. It says simply, a new habit. And taking care of yourself is hard.” – Michelle Icard (13:22)

B. Sexuality and Pornography

• On Timing: Critical to talk before age 14 (when many seek out porn), but accidental exposure is often much earlier. (18:49)
• How to Approach: Keep talks brief, shame-free, and direct. Don’t assume your child hasn’t seen anything or won’t be curious.
• Key Point: Porn is NOT real sex, and it can affect development and self-image. Acknowledge curiosity without panic or shame.
• Quote: “You don’t want to wire shame with arousal at all.” – Michelle Icard (21:06)

C. Healthy Relationships and Tween Dating

• Normalize Communication: Talk about crushes and “dating” as you would friendships. Vocabulary differences matter (“dating” means different things to parents and kids). (24:04)
• Michelle’s Feedback: Approachable feedback and openness are important: “I’m happy for you. If you want to talk or do something like go to the mall, let’s talk about it.” (26:26)
• Group vs. Solo Outings: Surprising insight—one-on-one dates are often safer than groups, where peer pressure is stronger. (31:11)
• Quote: “If they go out with a group … that’s when they start daring each other to do things, pushing each other into uncomfortable situations.” – Michelle Icard (31:07)

D. Consent: Everyday and Sexual

• Start Early: Consent isn’t just about sex; it’s about autonomy in everyday touch and relationships. Use relatable examples (viral “greeting choice” video) to introduce the concept. (32:24)
• Practical Modeling: Parents can show boundaries by articulating their own comfort needs.
• Quote: “If you’re able to verbalize that for your kid and model that, they’ll become good at expressing what they need and where their boundaries are.” – Michelle Icard (36:51)

E. Reputations & Sending Nudes

• Normalize the Conversation: Children are often approached for nudes as early as middle school; it’s surprisingly common.
• Focus on Social Consequences: Emphasize the reputational risks and peer responses rather than legal threats, which feel remote. Quote: “What your child fears more than the FBI knocking on their door … is that their peers will turn on them. And that is far more likely to happen.” – Michelle Icard (40:00)
• Use Stories, Not Interrogations: Reference real-life examples (like the Amanda Todd case) to underscore points without making it about your child’s choices.
• Avoid Shaming: Kids are impulsive and don’t always grasp the permanence of digital actions.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Communication Change:
  “It’s the job of language to tie groups together, and it’s the job of tweens and teens to break ties apart.” – Michelle Icard (01:28)
• On Having Difficult Talks:
  “A conversation is really exploratory ... you getting to express what you think and feel and them doing the same.” – Michelle Icard (02:43)
• On Pornography:
  “I don’t think many kids would be willing to sit for a just sort of back-and-forth convo at age 12 about pornography ... but you still have to have the talk nonetheless.” – Michelle Icard (19:03)
• On Consent:
  “Consent isn’t just about sex. ... There are a million ways you can segue into this.” – Michelle Icard (32:24)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:28 – Why middle school communication gets harder
• 03:17–07:46 – The BRIEF model explained
• 12:01–15:11 – Talking about hygiene without shaming
• 17:24–22:28 – Sexuality, pornography, and shame-free conversation
• 24:04–27:40 – Tween dating, group vs. solo outings
• 32:24–36:51 – Building consent culture early
• 37:15–44:25 – Digital reputations & conversations about sending nudes

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Takeaways & Practical Tips

• Use open-ended curiosity and gentle engagement, not lectures.
• Make tough conversations frequent, brief, and low-stakes.
• Avoid shaming—affirm the naturalness of curiosity and mistakes.
• Focus on relationship-building throughout, not just risk prevention.
• Model reflective, boundary-respecting behavior at home.
• Emphasize realistic, peer-related outcomes instead of distant or legalistic consequences.

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Final Words

Michelle Icard and Dr. Pressman normalize the discomfort around these conversations and encourage parents to start small, build up trust, and keep the dialogue open as adolescents grow. Practicing the BRIEF model, parents can transform intimidating talks into relationship-strengthening moments.

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For further expert tip sheets, check Michelle Icard’s “14 Talks by Age 14” and Dr. Aliza Pressman’s “The Five Principles of Parenting.”

Transcript

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Welcome to raising good humans. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman, and today's episode is all about middle schoolers. We are going to talk about how to talk to kids now that they are emerging adolescence. You've got tweens who are ready to have more collaborative conversations. So what phrases will invite connections and what. What phrases will scare them off? We're going to talk about how to keep kids engaged and interested in a conversation and some of the thorny topics that are important to have with kids this age. My guest, Michelle Icard has a book out called 14 talks by age 14, the essential conversations you need to have with your kids before they start high school. Some. Some of the talks we're going to go through today are around consent, sending nudes, sexuality, pornography, starting to date and dating relationships, and a couple of others that are just kind of thorny topics for middle school years, but so, so important to have. If you enjoy this episode, I hope, if you have not already, that you'll subscribe, rate and even write a little review and have a wonderful week. We spend the earlier childhood years with a different kind of kid.

[Michelle Icard]

Right. I think that's so alarming to parents that things are going fairly smoothly or at least predictably in some way until early adolescence, and then the wheels kind of start coming off the cart, and it's really shocking to parents. And for me, one of the biggest and most important changes that happens is, is around language and how we communicate with our kids. So I often say that it's the job of language to tie groups together, and it's the job of tweens and teens to break ties apart. They are really working on becoming individuals and becoming independent, and they are separating from their parents, and so they're not as interested in talking to you. And they really are interested in being with their peers and developing coded language with their peers that you don't understand or that excludes you. So it's a really weird time for parents, and it can feel lonely and it can feel a little bit like being rejected, but I think there are certainly some things that we can do to improve upon that and to kind of build a better rapport so we can talk about more things.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Wonderful. Okay, so what are your guideposts for starting these conversations? And I like that you say, and let's highlight. This is not a lecture.

[Michelle Icard]

Right. I think that's really important for parents to understand before they read the book or before they have their next talk with their kid, that if your hope is to have really good conversations with your kid, as they're entering adolescence and well beyond. That's not you telling them what's right and them listening politely and saying thank you. That's not a conversation. So a conversation is really exploratory, and you getting to express what you think and feel and them doing the same. And that's a really rich way to begin to communicate with them and learn about who they are as people. So that's pretty cool.

And.

And the sort of guidepost that I have for this is a model that I introduce in the book, and it's called the brief model. And so what that is, it's an acronym, the word brief. And each letter stands for a different step in the conversation. So there are five kind of moments that you have when you're talking with your kid this age, and it culminates in the place where you give feedback or you give advice or suggestions, or you may need to set boundaries or limits. But the difficulty we have with kids this age and talking to them is that a lot of parents start there. They think, I've got 30 seconds. I need to cram something really fast into my kid's head because they're going to turn and leave the room or pick up the phone. So, yeah, this model is really intended to be universal for all the stuff you need to talk about with your kid.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

All right, let's go through it. So the brief model begins with.

[Michelle Icard]

Yeah, so it begins with the letter B for brief, and B stands for begin peacefully. And what I mean by that is, rather than thinking, okay, I have a few seconds, I need to dive in the deep end here. I really would encourage parents to come at this sort of tangentially from the side, something that's kind of related to the topic at first or with some just gentle curiosity about what your kid thinks about the topic. So rather than if you are like, I really should be talking to my kid about vape, because I know it's something that a lot of kids are doing in middle school and saying like, hey, let's talk about vape. I hope you're not vaping or any of your friends vaping, you know, Right. It's not that kind of curious. It's a curiosity. Like, hey, what are your thoughts on this subject? Are you hearing people talk about it much? Do you think grownups are kind of overblowing it?

Do you.

What do you think is the situation around this? Is the news reporting too much on it? You know, kind of get them to be not their natural skeptics and start to talk that way? So that's B and then R is relate to your kid. And that's just a quick moment to show that you're on the same team. You're not having this conversation because you want to bust them or you're suspicious of something or you're trying to trap them. It's just like, I know this is kind of a weird thing to talk about with your parent. I remember talking to my parents about cigarettes and I promise I won't talk to you the way they talk to me. So just show that you're on the same team. Yeah, I is the third step. And that's where you can ask some questions to kind of get a better understanding of your kids experience. And I call this interview for data. And it's sort of purposefully clinical sounding because this is a point at which parents can get highly emotional. They want to ask the right questions and they want to get to the root of what their kid is thinking or feeling or most likely what their kid is doing. So rather than asking questions that are highly emotionally charged, I'd like this to be, I tell parents, pretend you are a district attorney assigned to a case and you have like zero interest in it. You have nothing riding on this case. So you're just, that's great. Just gathering info like what have you heard of are the health implications of this? What do you think of it? You know, so just general casual conversational questions. The next step is E, and that's echo what you hear. And anybody who's been to a therapy session or heard a therapist on TV knows how this goes. This is where you get to say things like, oh, okay, sounds like you're saying some kids do vape, but it's not as bad as maybe adults worry. Or it sounds like you're saying maybe some kids do it, but you definitely have no interest in it or whatever it is, you just echo it back. And I think this step is important for two reasons. One, I think it's important to just let your kid know that you're really listening and you want to be a fair listener and get it right. And two, part of this language barrier that comes up is often vocabulary based on. So we may think a word means something and our kid thinks it means something else, you know, so it's important to kind of check that here at this phase. And then F is the final step and that's feedback. And that's where you can give them your advice. Let them know what you hope they would do in a certain situation. Again, as I said, if you needed to set boundaries at this point or limit them in some way. You could do that. But if you kind of earn your moment here by investing in the conversation first, then your kid is far more likely to listen to that advice at this point.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And this is for entering into those conversations like you talk about in the book, the 14 kind of essential talks to have. I love that you just. And it's just so easy. It's nice when anything is easy. Just take it. Just 14 conversations. Find the time to have over time. And with this brief model. And then other conversations can be lighthearted and fun and not always like a thing.

[Michelle Icard]

That's it. When I thought about what do I want these 14 topics to be for the different chapters, they really are a way of thinking about your child's whole person. And so I didn't want this book to be a bummer where, like, every topic is like, okay, let's do pornography next. Let's do drugs next. You know, I didn't want everyone to be a warning. I want these conversations to be relationship builders. So some of them are, as you said, they're more lighthearted, they're fun. I mean, there are conversations about money, There are conversations about friends and about creativity. So some of them are just kind of building on your parent child relationship. And then embedded in some of the chapters are deeper, thornier issues.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And, you know, today I want to cover some of the thornier issues. Not to make everybody think it's a drag to come listen to this either, but just because those are the ones that sometimes it is helpful to have a little bit of support.

[Michelle Icard]

Sure.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

But I think so are the other ones. Because it's not always so intuitive to actually have an explicit conversation about something like money or changing relationships or some of these topics. And if you haven't been having these conversations, it's a great motivator to think about shifting the way we connect with our kids. Not even converse, but just the way that we're connecting becomes so much more collaborative. Even though, of course, ultimately, what's the f in brief?

[Michelle Icard]

Yeah, that's your feedback.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Ultimately, we are still the adults giving feedback, but it's so much more collaborative, and the whole process is. So what was the thorniest of the thorny topics in this book for you?

[Michelle Icard]

I think there are a couple that I think will cause parents the biggest pause. There's the chapter on sexuality, and there's the chapter on taking care of yourself.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Let's start with taking care of yourself, because I actually think that sometimes parents confuse pushing those Conversations with shaming.

[Michelle Icard]

Ah, that's right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I'd love to hear your take on taking care of yourself, and then we can dive into sexuality.

[Michelle Icard]

Sure.

So the broad umbrella of taking care of yourself is quite broad. And I sometimes joke that the way that I came up with these topics, as a little bit of an aside, is I rented an Airbnb for a week and I wrote on note cards everything that I interviewed a ton of parents, and I wrote down everything that people want to talk to their kids about or want them to know about before they're older teenagers. And so I scattered them all around this apartment. And the joke was that it looked like I was trying to solve a serial killer crime with notes everywhere and strings connecting things. And then I looked for patterns to figure out what could all go under one umbrella. So this is the chapter that has the biggest, broadest umbrella, because Taking Care of Yourself has conversations early on about wearing deodorant, which is just quite simple, wearing deodorant. And it spans all the way through to self harm and suicide. So it's a really big concept. But the sort of gist of the chapter is how to have talks with your kid that at this age, respect their ability to make choices and that recognize that you're not going to be there when they have to make these choices. So the conversations are about giving them information they need to make good choices and then kind of granting them the power to do that.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So will you walk us through the sample conversation? Let's do deodorant.

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Okay.

[Michelle Icard]

Deodorant is a good one.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I know it sounds silly, but I will say that I know parents listening, know this. They start to notice that their child needs deodorant. And of course, there are healthy brands of deodorant to remove the controversy over the quality of the deodorant. But there are parents who want to say something but don't want to get it confused with, like I said, shaming kids because they smell. And what I've tried to always say is you're not criticizing who they are as people. You're trying to help them take care of themselves and have proper hygiene and also walk through the world in a way that recognizes other people have to be in the room with you, too.

[Michelle Icard]

Unwritten social contract that we all abide by, generally speaking, that we keep our bodies clean and we don't smell bad because we live communally.

Right. And it's a polite thing to do,

you know, to a certain degree. So I see parents get so worried about deodorants the reason it made it in the book is because it's one of the things I get asked about more than any other for kids who are just starting middle school. And. And it's because parents often confuse this seemingly inability to have good hygiene with some kind of moral flaw in their kid. They're like, what is wrong with my kid?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Right?

[Michelle Icard]

They can't take care of themselves. They refuse to wear deodorant. They lie and say they're wearing deodorant when I know they're not. And what does this say about who they are as a person? You know? And the truth is it says nothing about who they are as a person. It says simply, a new habit. And taking care of yourself is hard. And this is the very sort of beginning phase of what becomes harder and harder in taking care of yourself, taking care of your body, making sure you're clean, making sure you're presenting in the way you want to present. And so for kids who are early in this process, it's just a pain in the butt.

And so they'd rather not.

And so they're running out the door to go hang with friends, and you get a whiff of them and you're like, oh, wait, I think you forgot to put on deodorant. Can you go upstairs and put some on before you leave? They are so hassled by this that they lie and they say, no, I have on deodorant.

And they rush out the door and

you're left like, this kid will never learn. They'll be a recluse. No one will want to be friends with them, right? So parents go to worst case scenario on this one really fast. But my advice in the book for deodorant is really, it's less about having a big conversation and more about just saying, hey, I know that this is new for you and that it can

be a real pain to have to

remember new things and develop new habits. So I'm going to make it as easy for you as possible. I have bought six new deodorants and they are in every room of the house and one is in my car. So, like, if you realize that you're

heading out the door and you forgot

one, there's one on the table by the door, and there's going to be one in the kitchen and there's going

to be one in the glove compartment.

So I know it's tough to remember, but you can just grab it wherever you are, put some on, and we won't worry about it.

And I Wouldn't overly talk about it.

I think this one is less conversational and more about just making it accessible. Easy for your kid to develop that habit.

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I really like how you talk about sexuality. I do think there's a very different conversation with the younger set to when you're now middle schoolers who are not in high school, but they're still, you know, you can have a really rich conversation now. It's not too early, you know, about sexuality and identity and healthy relationships. This is, I think, the trickiest topic. So let's Walk through this one using your brief model.

[Michelle Icard]

Sure. Okay, so that's like three different conversations. So.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Right. None of this is one conversation. These are ways to engage. But most conversations aren't one and done.

[Michelle Icard]

And I chose brief really purposefully because I don't want parents to feel like I'm not going to have this talk because I don't know how to have it perfectly, you know, I don't know what to say. You know, I'm not an expert. What would I say about pornography? I have no idea other than please don't, you know. So, like, I feel the brief acronym, the letters mean something, but also the word itself in that I'd love for you to just have short conversations and have a ton of them, rather than putting the pressure on yourself of having one big perfect conversation that checks all the boxes, because that's not going to happen. So, in fact, with the pornography piece, just incidentally, the book is 14 talks by age 14. And 14 is the age at which most kids begin searching for pornography online. Right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Versus accidentally happening upon it.

[Michelle Icard]

That's right.

It's accidentally happening much younger than that. But the kind of like curious, curious what would happen if I type this in. And they don't have any idea what will happen.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Right.

[Michelle Icard]

And so it's very important to have this conversation prior to age 14. And I like that you said definitely way earlier than that, I think. And so at what level can you talk about it at age, say, 12, for example? And for me, I think it's about. For this one, I will say, I don't think you need to go through B, R, I, E, F. I don't know many kids who would be willing to sit there and have a just sort of back and forth Convo at age 12 about pornography with their parents. But you still have to have the talk nonetheless. So I would begin by just saying, hey, there's something that I want to talk to you about. Some important messages that I think you need to hear. It's about pornography. I know that might make you feel like, blech, you want to bury your head right now. I'm not going to make this long. I'm going to be pretty quick about it. I just need to tell you a couple things. This one doesn't have to be a deeply enriched conversation. That, and I think that the thing to say here, I'm very careful in the book about not preemptively shaming anyone because it's quite possible that your child may have seen something online, accidentally or otherwise, and it made them Feel good. It was arousing in some way. Totally. And so you don't want to be like, it is horrible.

It is horrible, right?

Yeah. Like, pornography is the worst thing ever, and if you look at it, your life will be changed. No.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

You know, it's so interesting that you say that, because once you start talking about kids who are actually curious versus kids who are seeing something that's really upsetting and disturbing.

[Michelle Icard]

Yes.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

There are so many enormous problems with pornography. And also, it's totally appropriate for a kid who's going through many changes and curiosities to feel aroused and maybe even more curious after the first view. So I think not like entering with shame is so great. I mean, that was my incredibly long winded way of saying thank you for saying that.

[Michelle Icard]

Yeah, no, I'm glad we were totally on the same page here. You don't want to wire shame with arousal at all. So the message here in the pornography conversation is really, I think you want to hit on two points. One is that, you know, you recognize that it is out there. It is readily accessible. Your child may see it at some point, some point, and you want them to know right off the bat that it's not representative of real sex any more than, like, Spider man is representative of crime fighting.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Right.

[Michelle Icard]

So, like, it is an entertainment thing now. I don't think I would say that to my young child. I'm saying that to you right now. That's sort of the. The analogy here, but that it isn't real. It's like anything you see on tv, it isn't real. So I think that's really important to say. And then the other is that I think you want to educate your kid, that if you are a young person who looks at pornography, there can be some things that happen to you developmentally that backfire for you down the road. What may start off being curious and even feeling kind of good can end up making you feel bad. And messages in there, too, like, if you see it, you're not going to get in trouble. I want you to just, like, walk away from it, whatever it is. There are some messages around, you know, for parents who really want to say to their kid, don't look at porn. There's a little bit in there about how to say that too. And I'm not advocating that kids look at porn, by the way. I'm afraid I sound that way.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

You know what? It's okay because I know you're not, and I think it's clear. But it's an important tone, which is Just an acknowledgement of reality. And we have to operate to a certain extent in reality.

[Michelle Icard]

That's right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

That this is something that is around. And also, I'm obviously not advocating porn either, but I would just say it's very different from like a scarring situation from earlier in childhood to what it does to your wiring about sexual behavior when you're an adolescent.

[Michelle Icard]

Yes.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And how it could mess with what arouses you in general to take a kid who's not having a problem with it, who is occasionally experiencing that curiosity. I would hate for those things to be such extreme panic for parents.

[Michelle Icard]

Yes.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Compared with like an addiction.

[Michelle Icard]

Right, right. That's exactly it. So definitely we should be talking about it. Definitely. We want to veer far away from anything that makes someone feel bad for having natural feelings and then give them some education on kind of what are the possible effects this can have on your brain and your body and your relationships going forward. And that's it.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And it's not going to be a conversation any kid wants to have with their parents.

[Michelle Icard]

You're going to get in and out pretty fast.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Now let's talk about conversations about healthy sexuality and the kinds of conversations that you want to have before kids are even in new and emerging relationships.

[Michelle Icard]

I see a lot of chatter among parents this age, and some of them are like, I think it's adorable if my kid in middle school has a crush and they say that they're going out. And some of them are like, nope, we have a firm rule. There's no dating until 18. So there's a conversation around that. And I really think that much of that conversation is exactly the same conversation you'd want to have with your kid about healthy friendships, you know, so the big hang up for parents here is that they don't get what dating means and kids don't get what dating means. This is a very clear example of where we are not using the same vocabulary. So, I mean, even when I had. My kids are older now. They're 18 and 20. But when they were in high school, they were like, mom, it's not dating until you've been together for like two years. And like, there are a million other terms for it prior to that. Because I'd be like, oh, wow, I've seen that couple at every dance for the past year and a half. They're not dating, you know, but to me, they are. Like, by definition, you might begin this conversation if you've noticed that your kid is talking about someone a lot or you're hearing chatter like Oh, I heard that your kid is dating, so. And so it's probably more likely the way that you're gonna find out through the parent grapevine. So you could bring it up to your kid by just peacefully noticing, like, oh, hey, it seems like you're texting with Josh a lot, or whatever it is. And then the kid will be like, mom, ugh, whatever, Right? And then you can just begin to relate a little bit in a positive way, like, well, he seems like a nice person. How do you know him? Not launching into the, hey, do you have a boyfriend? And I don't know about it, you're just kind of tiptoeing in again. And then the I. The interview is where you can ask some questions to get clarity on what this relationship is. And I'm saying that. But also, your child probably doesn't know.

Your conversation when you're asking questions, you're at the eye level, is just to

say, I'm not for or against this. I'm just interested in chatting with you. What does this feel like? Does it feel like he might be someone you have a crush on, or does it feel like he might feel that way about you? So you can just ask some questions, and you can also ask what it means. So, like, you can sort of play dumb at this point. Like, are you dating? Is that such a thing? Does that make me sound like I'm 100? What do people say these days?

You know?

And then you're going to echo back what you hear, and that might just be like, okay, it sounds like you guys are just texting right now, but you wouldn't mind if he liked you back and maybe you like him, but you don't want me to make a big deal out of it. Is that right? And then the F is where you can give some feedback. So feedback might be like, I'm happy for you. I think it feels really good to like someone and to feel like someone likes you back. And I think that's great. As you keep talking with him. If you ever want to talk to me about it, if you ever get to the point where you think you might want to go someplace, go to a movie, go to the mall or something, let's talk about that. Because it's something we can definitely explore. We will have some rules around that, but we can talk about those together and figure out what they are. So you want to be a real team player at this point, because there's nothing to be alarmed by. You're just opening the conversation, and that allows you to open up more conversations about good relationships. Like, what is it about him that you like? What do you think is interesting? What is it about some guys at school that you think is a total like, ugh, I would never have a crush on that guy. Like, what is it about that? So I think it opens up the door for you to have some just healthy friendship, healthy relationship conversations from there.

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Another thing that I just learned about middle school dating is that. Have you ever heard the phrase they're shipped?

[Michelle Icard]

Yes.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I've not heard that. You're much more steeped in middle school life. I thought that was amazing. I was like, what the hell is shipped?

[Michelle Icard]

Yeah, exactly. And for people listening, it's like, you know, like friendship relationship. It's like we ship them together.

Exactly.

It's just such a. And that's the thing about language that I'm saying they need to have a language that purposefully excludes us from understanding, because that's how they separate from us and they build their tribe. And we had it, too, but I don't even know what we said.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

We said we were going together.

[Michelle Icard]

Yeah. Going together.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I think, if memory serves, I remember my 8th grade boyfriend said, will you go with me? And I was like, yes, will you go with me?

[Michelle Icard]

It's like stopping. And so much about having a relationship in middle school is just about being able to telegraph to people that you're normal. Right. Like, every middle schooler's biggest fear is not appearing normal to their tribe of people. And so if you can say, like, look, guys, I'm a likable person, my Instagram account shows that I have a boyfriend. Even if you never go anywhere with that kid, Even if all you ever do is text, hey.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Sup?

[Michelle Icard]

Sup?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Hi. Actually, I'm glad you pointed that out, too, because people should know that for many relationships in middle school, particularly in the pandemic, the kids have never hung out.

[Michelle Icard]

Right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

They just text, but they are in a relationship.

[Michelle Icard]

And another thing I think parents should know about middle school dating is that parents feel like it's a safety net if kids go out together in a group. But I assure you that it is far better for your kid to go on a little date with someone they have a crush on where it's just the two of them and you're somewhere around, depending on what grade they're in. You know, if they're in sixth grade and they want to go to a movie and you're maybe in the back of the theater and they're in the front of the theater, that is so awkward. And. And they're not going to do anything. But if they go out with a group of 10 kids and you're like, oh, it's fine. It's a group thing. That's when they start daring each other to do. Pushing each other into uncomfortable situations. So a one actually much safer.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Great suggestion. And great point. Yeah. Because all of our kids have great heads on their shoulders when they're alone, and they usually do when they're with one otherwise responsible friend. And if it's a romantic interest, assuming that they're still at that point where they're trying to be impressing each other and kind to each other, they probably are not doing the thing that, you know, convinces you to jump off the cliff.

[Michelle Icard]

Right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I'd love to hear the consent brief.

[Michelle Icard]

Sure. So the thing about consent is that consent isn't just about sex. Right. And I think for kids as young as this who are 11 years old or something, parents are like, well, I don't want to talk about consent because that's, like, really far away. That's college level material. But consent is something that we can begin teaching our kids when they are, you know, old enough to talk, really. And so what I talk about in the consent section of the book is that there are a million ways that you can segue into this. But the example that I give is just there was a viral video that went around that was so cute, you may have seen it. And there are, like, many of these videos where a teacher has a board outside of her classroom, and she asks the little kids as they're coming in how you would like to be greeted today. And the kid can select, I would like, from a hug to a high five, to a fist bump, to a dance, to a wave. So it's all levels of sort of touch and agreement on that. And so you can get a hug from the teacher, or you can get a high five, or you can do a fist bump, or you can both just do a cute little wiggle dance at each other from, like, a few feet apart, or you can just wave and walk in the classroom. I love it. And it's all about the kid's choice. The kid gets to say how they would like to be touched or not. And that is such a beautiful example of consent. So in the conversation in the book, I have the parent say, like, look at this cute video and show it to the kid and then begin a conversation talking about, like, you know, in middle school in particular, kids get real handsy. I don't know if you've ever noticed that, but you have. Some kids. There's a thing called touch hunger that really spikes in middle school. And because parents are often cuddling and touching their kids less at this age, kids really cuddle each other. They are, like, jumping on each other's necks and backs. On the one hand, they need to feel touch, right? And so for many kids, it can be really comfortable doing each other's hair and, you know, like, sitting in each other's laps and that. But the video is a good segue to talk about the need for touch and to talk about how some people aren't comfortable with that and how. How you really do need to ask somebody if it's okay. Like, hey, can I braid your hair? Is all you have to say. You don't just reach over and put your hands in somebody's hair, or, can you give me a piggyback? Or how about a hug? Like, there are pretty normal ways that you can ask. And then if you have a really good relationship with the person, if it's your bestie and you're always snuggling, that's fine. But if it's a new person to you, you don't want to assume that just because you like to be really snuggly that they do too. So the video is the segue into it. And then you can kind of talk about that and you can do a little bit of, like, questioning around. What do you think consent means? Like, what does this conversation bring up for you? Have you ever heard that word before? And then you can, you know, have a little bit of a vocab lesson there if you need to. And then you can talk about what's comfortable for them and what they can say to their friends. Cause some kids are really like, I really need my space. I do not like anybody to invade it. And some kids are, come on, come all. Everybody, come climb onto this couch with me.

Right?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yes.

[Michelle Icard]

So it's a good way to talk about it. And then the other thing that you can do is you can talk about your preferences. So with this skin touch hunger thing that comes up in middle school, sometimes you have kids who will not give their parents a bit of breathing room. They're like, crawling into your bed at night and laying on your hair, and you're just like, ugh, I need space. Or they want to put their legs up on you all the time when you're watching a movie. It's just they get really cuddly sometimes. Sometimes they back away, sometimes they get real close. So it depends on the kid. But you showing them really good examples of how to advocate for what you need in your personal space sends them a good message. So you might be able to say, hey, I love snuggling with you and I love time with you, but I can't have your legs on me the whole time because then they start to get really heavy and my legs fall asleep. So let's just sit side by side. That is so much more comfy for me. But you can put your head on my shoulder if you're able to verbalize that for your kid and model that they'll become good at expressing what they need and where their boundaries are with other people.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

You chose a topic that I really loved. Reputations. Like, talking about reputations is not so intuitive. And the only way that I think people end up talking about reputations very often is by judging other people in the moment. So I want to open up your brief on categories within reputations. Sure.

[Michelle Icard]

So I think that the biggest one, the one that strikes fear for parents more than anything else is the topic of sending nudes. That sort of can be a real reputation breaker for kids, particularly when other people find out. And then word travels. And I will tell you through the work that I do and the parents who I work with, most people will say that in middle school, kids are being asked for nudes. Like, it is not at all shocking. Is that how you feel, too, that it is?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I do, I do. I think people don't realize, like, it goes very quick, Even people who are not touching each other.

[Michelle Icard]

Right, right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I think it's actually earlier than. Yeah. That what I'm gleaning is that it happens. We adults would think that it would be a natural progression after you're sexually active. I do not think that that's what's happening for middle schoolers.

[Michelle Icard]

Right. And I think that there may be a smaller number of people who are asking and they're really doing a sort of a shotgun approach and asking a ton of people. I' saying that, like, every kid is out there asking for a nude, but that it is pretty normalized that among middle schoolers, the conversation that, sure, people are asking, and sure, some people are saying yes and sending photos topless or

completely naked or whatever.

I think it's really important to have this conversation with your kid in advance right before they go to middle school to just say, hey, I want to talk about something that can go on in middle school. It's not definite, but it can. And one of the things that happens is sometimes people ask for or send photos unclothed. And we should have a conversation about that here. Your kid would probably bury their head in a blanket and be like, what are you talking about? I don't want to talk about this.

But this is another one, kind of

like the pornography conversation, where you can say, I'm going to make this quick, but I do need to say a couple things here. The relating part of it can just simply be that, like, I understand why this would make you feel uncomfortable. I'm going to make it as easy as possible. We'll go pretty fast here. And you do not need to interview them. You do not need to say, have you ever been asked by anyone to send a nude? That's not the purpose of this conversation. The purpose is really to educate your kid on what could go wrong. So before they experience this, they have it in their head that this isn't just a simple, funny, silly, curious, cool thing to do, right? There can be a real big downside here.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

The reason not to just give the absolute worst case scenario is because that only lasts as long as your kids only have you to turn to.

[Michelle Icard]

That's exactly right. And truly what your child fears at this age more than the FBI knocking on their door and doing a search on their computer, which seems completely far fetched, is that their peers will turn on them. And that is far more likely to happen than a child pornography charge. Right. The real thing that brings me here is someone sends a picture to someone else, the person who asked, they either care about that person or they're desperate to look cool or they're tired of being badgered. I've heard about this from some parents I work with where the kid is like, if I send you one, will you please stop, stop asking me? And then that person has a photo and then they're like, well, guess what, send me more or I'm going to show this photo to people. So there can be a number of reasons that a kid agrees to send a photo to. Right now we're talking just about kid to kid, peer to peer, not like stranger on the Internet situation. So there are a number of reasons that a kid in middle school might agree to do this and then they do. They are impulsive thinkers and they don't think about what the outcome could be. But the worst outcome for them typically is that their peers then find out about it and turn on them. So if you can talk about this with an example, I often suggest to parents, don't talk about this as something that has happened to your kid or could happen to your kid or will likely happen to your kid, but use an example of somebody else because your kid will get defensive and say, like, not me. No, couldn't be. But if you can use somebody else and parents can Google, I'm looking at my book right now because I give the name of a video in here and I'm forgetting the sweet poor girl's name. Oh, it's Amanda something. And I'm so sorry, I don't remember her name right now, but she is a girl who took a photo and it got sent around and everyone in her school turned against her. So she switched schools and the reputation followed her to another school and she ended up dying by suicide because she could not escape the shame of this situation. And again, I hate for shame to be brought into any child's life over something like this because they are at an age where they have sexual feelings and they have romantic feelings, and they're just young and confused and fumbling and mistakes are made. And so when parents talk about this issue as, like a criminal activity, I don't think that, A, that's as much of a deterrent as we think it would be, and B, I think it could maybe invoke, like, some shameful feeling for a kid.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

That's such a good upsetting point.

[Michelle Icard]

Yeah.

So I like to just say, like, here's how relationships can evolve. You might trust someone and think, this person would never do anything to embarrass me. But it happens. Relationships change, friendships change, People don't. You know, I'm not married to the person I dated in eighth grade, so very likely that you will not stay in a kind relationship with someone at this age. And so the conversation here really takes parents through talking about what could go wrong. Somebody slips it, or a parent does a phone check. Maybe the person you trusted completely didn't do anything wrong, who you sent the photo to, but their parent went and looked at their phone. Next thing you know, they're calling the school. So it talks you through some of those ways to talk to your kid about what could go wrong. Because I think this is just an issue of kids not thinking ahead or knowing how to think ahead on something that's so new. The book is really about practicing this formula for having conversations. And you start with the easy stuff. You don't dive into the hard stuff right away. Start with the easy stuff. It's just about practice and practicing. You've got years and years and years to practice starting young and then building that rapport so that you can handle these tougher. These are like varsity level conversations. You can handle those once you've done this with some easier stuff for a little bit.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And I think that's why practicing entering into conversations, not lectures, thinking about using reflective language and all of those tips, you really can practice with any kind of conversation.

[Michelle Icard]

Right.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

It helps you not sound like you have an agenda. And if you become fluent in those conversations, you won't have an agenda because you can really just. Your agenda can be true curiosity.

[Michelle Icard]

Oh, I love that. I love that you said that if you become fluent, you don't need to have an agenda. Yeah. Because you trust yourself. You know how to talk.