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- [00:00]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
At Great Wolf Lodge, there's an adventure for the whole family. And I am very excited that there is a lodge in Anaheim close to me. You know, maybe I can go check it out. And with 23 lodges across the country, that means there's probably one near you too. You and your pack can splash away at an indoor water park where it's always 84 degrees. There's a wave pool, a lazy river, and a bunch of massive water slides, including ones your family can enjoy together. They even have adventure packed attractions from Magiquest, a live action game kids can play throughout the lodge to the Northern Lights Arcade. The quest is one of the coolest parks. And there's also a bunch of great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties. All of this happens under one roof. With 23 lodges across the country, you're always only a short drive away from adventure. So bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more@greatwolf.com and go ahead and strengthen the pack.
- [00:59]
Julia Minson
My research is experimental, right. So I run experiments where we, you know, tell people to do something and then we have a control condition where we don't tell them anything. And then we see who performs better. And what we found over and over again is that telling people to take on a different mental state. Right. So, like, think differently about this conversation or try harder to empathize or try harder to take, you know, the other person's perspective makes very little difference.
- [01:29]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Have you ever wanted to know how to disagree better? I know you have.
- [01:32]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
We can all use some tips on
- [01:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
how to disagree better, whether it's because you're wanting to have better disagreements in the household, whether you're trying to have more interesting conversations, or whether you're trying
- [01:45]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
to model it for your kids.
- [01:47]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Julia Minson is a professor at the
- [01:49]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Harvard Kennedy School and she's a behavioral
- [01:52]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
scientist who has extensive research experience in conflict communications, negotiations, and decision making. And I thought she would be a fantastic person to talk about this with. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman, Developmental psychologist, New York Times best selling author, associate clinical professor at the Icahn School of Medicine, and the host of Raising Good Humans podcast. I am so glad you're here.
- [02:18]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
We are going to talk about how to disagree better.
- [02:22]
Julia Minson
Yes, we are.
- [02:23]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
I'm very excited for this conversation in the context of, like, family life.
- [02:29]
Julia Minson
Yeah.
- [02:29]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And also thinking, as, you know, parents, how it informs how we disagree, but also how we're raising our kids at a time when disagreement is so tricky. And I thought that the statistic that you Shared about how people would rather go to the dentist and have a 20 minute uncomfortable conversation. Felt like, okay, what is going on here?
- [03:02]
Julia Minson
Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, people have never loved disagreement, right? I mean, we sort of pretty consistently prefer to hang out with people who agree with us than people who disagree with us. But I think in the last few years, what has happened is disagreement has become much more fraught. There are just certain topics that, if you disagree with me, that just makes you a horrible person. Right. And, you know, I will tell you that, you know, you are causing harm to somebody else. You, you know, should not have that belief. You should not even be raising those questions. And I think particularly, you know, kids are very, very sensitive to that, right? Because they're working so hard to establish themselves in their, you know, little communities and, you know, keep their friends and keep their peer networks. And then I think there's a real generational challenge, right? Because, you know, the parents and, you know, like, the grandparents even, you know, especially the grandparents, yeah, they just, they. They miss the memo on all the things you're not allowed to disagree about.
- [04:08]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
How is that looking? Like, how does that play out in the research? And what are some things that we can do to sort of right the ship a little bit so that, I mean, because I think it's interesting, I love the idea that young people have sort of a moral code that they feel strongly about. But then I also wonder, how do they know how to be in conversation with other people and not be so the kind of moral righteousness that happens if the adults in their life are either doing the same thing or unclear about the can and cannot believe, think, say, how is that looking for our kids and everyone?
- [04:55]
Julia Minson
I think overall, my sense is that this is a trend that has come from a place of good intentions that has then turned out to have, like, unintended negative consequences. Right. For example, here's. Here's like, a story from my life. So I have three daughters, and two of them are now, you know, one is in college, one is about to go off to college. And then I have my little one. And a few years ago, my. We were having dinner and it was just me, my husband, and our middle daughter, who was, you know, know, probably like 15 or 16 at the time. And I was talking about, like, my preferences for neatness and cleanliness. And I said something about how, like, oh, I'm really OCD about, like, making sure that the, you know, glass table in the living room is actually clean. And my daughter says, mom, you can't say that anymore. It's offensive to people with ocd. And. And I'm like, I don't mean anything bad about people with ocd. I just mean that I really like to have a, you know, clean last table. She's like, no, mom, you can't say that. That's inappropriate, that's hurtful, that harmful. I'm like, babe, there is nobody here in this room right now with ocd. Like, what is going on? You know, and, like, her eyes well up with tears, and she gets really upset. And it turns out that one of her really good friends thinks she has ocd. Very likely, based on the description, does have ocd. That child's parents are, like, won't acknowledge it or deal with it. And so my daughter was, like, standing up for this concrete person who was not in the room, right? But she felt like this very, very strong, like, moral imperative to, you know, correct my sort of very, like, offhand remark. And I think different versions of that happen all the time, right? And you can think of sort of other much more like, hot button categories than, you know, referring to, you know, ocd. And I think what that does, right, is really chills conversation, right? Like, there are just certain things that, you know, people are very careful about unintentionally saying something like, I did, or even intentionally bringing up a topic that is of profound importance. And you want to sort of talk to your kids and you want to understand how they feel about it, but you just say, no, you know what? I can't do this right now. And I have no idea what the fallout is going to be. So I'm just going to, you know, stay far, far away from this topic.
- [07:49]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
So is it keeping us from getting closer?
- [07:53]
Julia Minson
I think so. I think it's keeping us from getting closer, and I think it's leaving room for a lot of, you know, parenting that's not getting done, right? Because there are some topics that we want to talk to our kids about and, you know, concerns we have that we might want to share that we don't know how to open up. And I think it's leaving a lot of assumptions, usually negative assumptions left unexplored, right? So I think there's a lot of parents, you know, sort of just adults of, you know, prior generations who say, well, this is so stupid. I can't believe the kids these days are worrying about, you know, this, that, or the other thing. One day they will grow up and get over it. Right? And so there's all this judgment, right on Both sides. That's right. Judgment on both sides, Right. That is not getting articulated or explored or like handled in any way.
- [08:55]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
So what are we doing about this to disagree better? Because you said that the research shows that teaching kids to, or adults for that matter, to be more like, think more empathetically doesn't actually move the needle. And I think that we need to hear about this because I think a lot of us feel like, oh, maybe if I could get this other person to put themselves in the, you know, my shoes or someone else's shoes, that maybe that would shift their thinking and we would have a better conversation. But that does not seem to be the case.
- [09:31]
Julia Minson
Yeah. So to zoom back a little bit, my research program is on how people can disagree constructively. Right? And there's a lot of, there's a lot of guidance in this space that has to do with either empathy or perspective taking. Curiosity often comes up and all of these are sort of really good things that we want people to be doing. But my research is experimental, right. So I run experiments where we, you know, tell people to do something and then we have a control condition where we don't tell them anything and then we see who performs better. And what we found over and over again is that telling people to take on a different mental state, right? So like, think differently about this conversation or try harder to empathize or try harder to take, you know, the other person's perspective makes very little difference to the other person. And I found this incredibly baffling. Like, I kept thinking that I'm, you know, doing the experiment wrong. That's, those are like the first conclusion of any, you know, researcher is like, oh, I, I screwed it up. And then eventually what I came to realize is that a lot of the times when, you know, I mean, think about kind of like your stereotypical teenager, which I think actually captures the, captures the way most adults think pretty well is, you know, you disagree with somebody, somebody who is very well meaning, says, well, you know, take on their perspective, think about it from their point of view. And you're like, yeah, I thought about it from their point of view. Their point of view is stupid. And now having thought about it, I have concluded that I was able to write, right. I've doubled down on how stupid their point of view is. Right? And so part of, I think part of the problem is that when we disagree, we believe we're right and we believe that we're already giving as much grace and as much empathy as this other wrong headed person deserves. Right. I Think the other part of the problem is that even if I say, well, look, you know, maybe I'm being unfair, maybe I'm not thinking about this hard enough, I'm gonna try harder. It's hard to tell from the outside what is actually happening, right? So like, this other person who is trying harder, you know, they could be looking at the ceiling, they could be sort of, you know, seeming like they're sort of checked out because they're thinking really hard.
- [12:02]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
So it alienates the person they're trying to figure out how to empathize with.
- [12:08]
Julia Minson
Exactly, exactly, exactly. My husband and I used to have this, like, running, you know, argument where, you know, I would be saying something, you know, long and complicated because in disagreement, nobody can ever say it clearly, right? Like in a conflict, everybody sort of like goes in circles. They're trying to express their complicated feelings. And I would be doing that, and I would be like, why aren't you listening to me? And he's like, I am listening to you. And I'm like, why are you staring into space? You know? And he's like, well, because I'm thinking about the thing you said five minutes ago. And like, I'm still there, I'm still on that thing and you're still talking. And now I've completely lost track of, you know, where we are, what's happening. But I'm really trying to. Right, but from my perspective, it looks like he's just staring into space.
- [12:56]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
That's so interesting. Just imagining how much well meaninged guidance, myself included, of saying, like, take the time to put yourself in the other person's shoes and imagine their perspective and what they're going through right now. And that's not effective. So what is effective?
- [13:18]
Julia Minson
So a lot of the research that I've been doing in my lab, you know, it sort of comes out of the same kind of insight that a lot of the other ideas come from. And the insight is, I'm sure, one you have shared many times with your listeners, which is that people want to feel heard, right? People want to feel like you are really engaging with their point of view, like you're trying to listen and to understand. And, and so then the question is, how can we do that in a way that they recognize, right? Because we're trying to induce this like, subjective feeling of I feel heard by you. Right? And what we find is that sort of the most clear, the most widely shared, the most salient thing we do in conversation is language, right? It's like literally the words we use. Yes, I have A former student who's now a professor at ucla. Her name is Hannah Collins, and she calls it listening with your words.
- [14:26]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Ah, that's great.
- [14:29]
Julia Minson
So, right, so, like, you use words to prove to the other person that you're listening. Right. Like, all that processing that's happening in your brain that they can't see.
- [14:39]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Put it out there.
- [14:40]
Julia Minson
Put it out there so they can see. See what is happening for you and how hard you're trying and that you are, in fact, engaging with their perspective.
- [14:51]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Okay, so will you give us that, like an example of that script and is it surrounded with. I really want to make sure I understand. Here's what I think you're trying to say. Or is that, like, too prescriptive?
- [15:07]
Julia Minson
No, I love prescriptive. I love prescriptive. And I like clear. And I like, you know, like, literally give people, you know, a set of words and phrases. In my book, I talk about, like, a few different strategies. And part of the way I think about a conversation in general and a disagreement specifically is there's part of the time that you have to spend on figuring out what the other person thinks.
- [15:35]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right.
- [15:36]
Julia Minson
And then there's part of the time you have to spend on actually conveying what you think.
- [15:40]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [15:41]
Julia Minson
And so different tools exist for the different parts of the conversation. Right. So if you're trying to figure out what the other person believes, we found that it's really important to signal your curiosity and your desire to learn verbally. Right. And so it can be something, you know, very close to what you said. Right. I, like, I think this is a really important topic, and I would like to understand your perspective. Right. You know, I don't know how you think about this, but it sounds like you think differently than I do. Can you tell me more about, you know, your opinion, your thoughts, your beliefs, your values, whatever it is. Right. And people often worry that, you know, and I think rightfully so, that in kind of showing curiosity and in labeling it, they're almost like tacitly endorsing the other position.
- [16:38]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right.
- [16:39]
Julia Minson
But I think. I think you can do both. So we often talk about a learning sandwich or curiosity sandwich, where you say, look, it sounds like we disagree about this. I'm really curious about your point of view. From my perspective, I think, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I understand that there's lots of different ways to see this, so I would really like to understand where you're coming from.
- [17:06]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Now, what's interesting about that is that you can hear so many people say, there is no other way to think about this. And I'm not going to say those words because I'm certain in this particular case, I'm so.
- [17:19]
Julia Minson
Right, right, right.
- [17:20]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And you could imagine a teenager and a parent in that conversation. And like, I think in that, in the context of a parent, child, I think the onus is on us, the parent, to sort of suck it up and say that you're curious and interested and can see that they have a different perspective and want to learn about it, even if we're like, I'm 100% certain that it is not okay for you to do X, Y or Z. So in that case, there's a power dynamic where, like, the adult can just sort of try and believe that it will be better for the connection. But what do you do? How do you help A, young people understand that? And B, two adults who are not feeling like they want to have a teachable experience where they really understand and there's just a disagreement.
- [18:17]
Julia Minson
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so I think there's many cases, right, where we are just like 100 certain that we're right. And. And I think it's fine to express that. Right. You can say, like, look, I am really confident that I'm right, but you seem to disagree. And so I would like to understand why you disagree with me and what, you know, where you're coming from on this. You know, I think you brought up power, and I think that's. I think power is like a hugely understudied part of all of this, because I think we normally think of power as, you know, like formal power.
- [19:02]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right?
- [19:02]
Julia Minson
So, like, the boss has power over a subordinate or, you know, the parent has power over a child. Right. But you think about power in a conversation. And teenagers are like, a perfect example of this. You know, if they have the power to just walk out of the kitchen and slam the door, like, you're done.
- [19:20]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right. You have more incentive to keep them, like, to not drive them out the door.
- [19:28]
Julia Minson
That's right. That's right. So, like, staying sort of like, keeping the person in the conversation is a power that many of us don't have. And so you can be a million times right, but if they've walked out, then you can't. You've lost the opportunity to, you know, convince them of anything so that, you know, acknowledgement that, like, I disagree with you and I think I'm right and I have, you know, 40 years of life on this planet to, you know, support that claim. But look, you are a smart, reasonable person. I would like to understand where you're coming from, you haven't sort of given up any of the rightness. Right. But you may have extended the conversation a little longer.
- [20:18]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Okay, so part of this, it sounds like you have to be, in order to disagree better, you need to care.
- [20:26]
Julia Minson
You need to have some motivation to work on it. Yeah. Because. And this is also a really great point to bring up. It takes work. I teach at the Kennedy School, which is the School of Public Policy, so I mostly teach like public policy folks, but I also do a lot of private workshops with, you know, all kinds of people. What I always say is that, you know, look, in some ways learning to disagree better according to behavioral science and through using language and behavior is easier, you know, than years of therapy. But it is still hard. Like, let's not pretend it's still work. Right. And it's work. Because first of all, thinking about anything from two perspectives is harder than thinking about it from one perspective.
- [21:12]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right, Right.
- [21:13]
Julia Minson
Asking a question and then listening to the answer and then like restating and acknowledging and all that stuff just takes more time. Right. Like any conversation is just going to take longer. And I think it takes emotional self control. Right. A lot of these conversations, when you're really sort of riled up, you have to calm yourself down to think about, you know, what's the right way to show my listening. So if, like, if you have no stake in this thing, then it might not be worth the effort.
- [21:48]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
We all know that kids going back to school means parents going back to making lunches.
- [21:53]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And most of us dread it. Or is that just me?
- [21:56]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [22:44]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
You know that moment right before you walk out the door and you know you're picking up probably very hungry Kids, everything is kind of mayhem, but, you
- [22:53]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
know, you need a snack. How great is it when you can grab something fantastic? Kodiak Chewy bars.
- [22:58]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Is that for me?
- [22:59]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
You have them in the pantry. You grab them when you know that somebody's gonna be hungry and there is not gonna be food in sight. Finding something that kids actually wanna eat
- [23:08]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
that you can feel really good about
- [23:10]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
handing them is very hard. Kodiak somehow pulled it off. The s' mores and chocolate chip chewy bars have sat 7 grams of protein per serving, and they're made with whole grains and real ingredients. So it feels like, yes, it's easy,
- [23:23]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
but it's also healthy.
- [23:24]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And they are everywhere I need them to be. Lunch boxes, pickups, sports practice, car trips. And with back to school ramping up, there is no stress. Just grab these. It's a small thing, but as parents, we know having one last thing to
- [23:37]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
think about is so much easier.
- [23:38]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Find Kodiak chewy bars@kodiakakes.com or your local grocery store. They're the ones with the bear on the box.
- [23:51]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Presumably, nobody's gonna make the effort or bother with it, except if they're perhaps arguing in front of their kids or in front of someone else that they are consciously aware of. I wonder. Cause I was thinking about. You're at the Kennedy School, so my daughter's a member of the forum, which I think is an undergraduate thing.
- [24:15]
Julia Minson
There's.
- [24:16]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
But I think they pride themselves on taking in different perspectives, but about really heated topics.
- [24:25]
Julia Minson
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
When you disagree, there's like the personal disagreements. You have a disagreement with your spouse or your child, but then there's like, the larger philosophical disagreements. What is the incentive for these kids, for example, to participate in activities where they're getting multiple perspectives and supposed to. To do this because it. It does require so much work. And I'm thinking of a developing brain. Like, I'm probably less confident in how right I am at this age than I was 30 years ago. So what's the incentive? Because it's pretty cool if you have that incentive.
- [25:06]
Julia Minson
Yeah. So that's. I think that's another great question. Or, like, it's a great observation that I think a lot of people don't recognize. You know, there's sort of all this talk about, like, well, you know, young people don't do this and young people don't do that. And, you know, our colleges are, you know, not fostering constructive dialogue. Right. And I'm sort of like, take any given adult and say, you know, would you like to talk about, you know, genocide or trans rights or abortion with your colleagues at work, 99% of them would be like, hell no. Right? And so, like, why are we expecting our kids to jump in with both feet and enthusiasm into these extremely difficult topics amongst, you know, their peers? So I think in order to create, you know, in order to foster those environments where this happens, we need to recognize that it's hard, that there are huge social disincentives and figure out how to make it easier, Right? Like, it's never going to be easy, but we need to make it easier. And so I think we need to tie it to people's professional aspirations, right? So, for example, at the Kennedy School, where we're, you know, developing policy leaders, we say to them outright, look, if you're going to, you know, discuss and sort of create policy for your country, you have to be able to have this conversation, right? We have very similar conversations. For example, you know, at the medical school, at the school of, you know, at the business school, at the law school, it's like it is part of your job to have these difficult conversations. And so we're here to try to kind of prepare you and scaffold you. But I think when you're talking about high school kids or, you know, early college kids, that's a big ask.
- [27:02]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
So it's a big ask. And yet it feels like they want to do. Feels like they do have an interest in doing it. And then confusingly, in some ways, it connects kids, like, the way that they're thinking. If there's a larger group that's thinking that way, maybe they do want to be in conversation and have disagreements, but it's very hard to imagine how they're doing it. And like, who's in charge of teaching that? So is that on the parents? What would you say we can do in the household?
- [27:46]
Julia Minson
Like, all the kind of important kid skills, I think we have to do it at, like, in multiple layers, right? So Harvard College, which is our undergrads, we just launched a program that's going to be, that is required now for all incoming freshmen, based on my work, where they have to learn, you know, some very concrete behavioral skills about constructive disagreement before they ever set foot on campus. And then we're going to sort of reinforce it with, in person practice once they get here, because, like you said, they have a curiosity and they have a motivation. And, you know, often the reason kids go to college is because they want to meet people who are different than them and have different opinions and sort of like expand those horizons. So we're doing that based on the recognition that there's both a motivation and a fear. And so let's make it easier by upskilling them and by creating opportunities. My lab is working on a course that would be very similar but designed for high schoolers. Right. So the language is different, the examples are different. Sort of like the look and feel of it is really designed for, you know, kids that grew up on, like, you know, TikTok and Instagram and, you know, whatever. Right. So it's, like, all very fast, very kind of colorful, you know, all the, you know, full of memes that I personally don't understand. But. But, you know, and a lot of the examples are examples of disagreements that you can't avoid in your real life. Right. So it's disagreements with your parents and with your coaches and, like, your, you know, project group for, you know, science class. And so the idea is that if we teach them to apply these skills in daily disagreements, they will be more prepared when somebody brings up some, like, massive, you know, policy thing. But I think, you know, I think the parents have a huge responsibility. And to me, what's interesting, and, you know, I don't sort of study kids, so this is just my experience as a parent. I. I think we have to start really early. You know, I think we have to start with, like, the little itty bitty ones kind of modeling how you ask questions and how you give them choices and how you inquire about their, you know, their preferences so that by the time they're teenagers, they have that default of like, oh, you know, if I talk to mom, there's some chance that, you know, there's some chance we'll have a sensible conversation because we've done this a thousand times before.
- [30:36]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right. And what about. Because when kids are younger, one thing that's not great is if you're having an argument and you say to your partner, let's take this in the other room, because nobody sees the arc of the argument and then the conclusion and that everybody's okay. So it can be. It can be confusing, especially for younger children.
- [31:02]
Julia Minson
Mm.
- [31:03]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Is there a way to argue better or disagree better in front of your kids?
- [31:10]
Julia Minson
Yeah, I. I absolutely think that constructive disagreement is something we should model. Right. So, you know, I think you can argue in front of your kids. You shouldn't fight in front of your kids.
- [31:23]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
That's a great distinction.
- [31:25]
Julia Minson
Right. I think. I think there. It's different, right. When somebody says, you know, well, I don't think that, you know, Joya, my Oldest daughter is named Joya. You know, I don't think that Joya should go to her friend's house until she has cleaned her room. Right. And the other parent might say, well, you know, I don't know that I agree with that because she's had a really busy school week and all her friends are getting together, and I think it's okay that she's. She goes and has a good time, and then she'll, you know, come back and clean her room, you know, on Saturday or whatever, you know. And the first parent might say, well, how. How do you think that sort of, you know, jives with our agreements about how we're going to talk about responsibility and take it more seriously and, you know, not leave empty pizza boxes in our bedrooms. Right. And so you can, like. Like, you can have the conversation and demonstrate curiosity and disagreement and have your kids sort of absorb all of this,
- [32:35]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
which is quite different than screaming at each other and calling each other names.
- [32:38]
Julia Minson
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Which we generally try to avoid, like, even when the kids are not a factor.
- [32:45]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
That's a bigger problem.
- [32:46]
Julia Minson
That's a bigger problem. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.
- [32:50]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And so over time. So rather than avoid having those disagreements in front of young people, have them. But how do you, like, distinguish. How do people choose when to. You know, it's like, how do you pick your battles? If you're. You want to have appropriate disagreements and productive, constructive disagreements, but are there times that you also want to say, do. Does that feel necessary right now for parents? I think we do like biting our tongue in life in general. Even if it's just to take a beat is great until it's not. Until it's just there's an avoidance of any disagreements whatsoever. So I guess I'm wondering kind of what do we know about disagreements? And is there a point at which somebody is more focused on disagreeing than connecting? And.
- [33:53]
Julia Minson
And.
- [33:53]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Or is it a longing for connection?
- [33:56]
Julia Minson
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, that's. That's a great way of thinking about it. I think constructive disagreement can really help with connection. Right. Because we all have these things in our heads that we're afraid to express because we know that they might not be well received because the other person thinks differently. Right. And when that other person really sort of hears you out and seems curious and thoughtful and, you know, like, they care, it really feels like a weight is lifted and you do feel closer to that person. So thinking of disagreement as a path towards connection, I think is really wonderful. You know, your question of sort of like, when is it? Like, when is enough enough? You know, when my kids were really little, there's always that moment that, like, all of us have had, right, where like, you're standing on the side of a busy street and you're telling your five year old to, like, hold your hand and like, I'm a big girl, I don't need to hold your hand.
- [35:02]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Yes.
- [35:03]
Julia Minson
And you were like, we can have this conversation, but not right now. Like, right now, you hold my hand.
- [35:12]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Yeah. We'll get into the why later.
- [35:15]
Julia Minson
That's right, that's right. And so I've always told my kids that, like, when it comes to safety, you know, my word is law, but I'm happy to discuss it and debated and whatever later. Right. Like when this, like when the safety thing has passed. Right. And so, so that's sort of one, one guideline that I always think about. Um, and then, you know, the other piece in terms of how much time do we devote to these things and how hard do you work to, you know, be constructive about everything? The reason it's a tricky question is because you don't know what's going to happen depending which path you take. Right? So I've had many experiences in the course of, you know, parenting three children where I say, look, I am tired. We've had this conversation five times. And I said no. And I mean no. And that's it, right? And like, by the grace of God, at that moment, the child just sort of says, oh, okay. And like, life moves on, right? And I'm like, whew. Right? And then there's other times where you say no, and it just blows up. And then like, you know, an hour later, you know, somebody is crying. Some, both of us are crying. Like, it's just. And you just, you just know that you, like, dug yourself into this and suspect that, you know, 10 minutes of better listening could have prevented the whole thing. And so the problem is you just don't know what your odds of success are. Whereas, you know, the whole, the whole kind of constructive bit of it and the, you know, listening and the curiosity is always slower, it's always more effortful, and I think on average it's more effective.
- [37:06]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
What about when you are talking with someone about a disagreement and so you're in the position of you can make the choice of violently agreeing with them because you're being a supportive friend or cause you just do. Or is there any growth or benefit in sort of doing some of the workload of what that disagreement could look like because you don't have the same skin in the game. And you're sort of like, let's think about this. What might the other person's perspective be? But I guess that goes back to your earlier point where our perspective is not super effective.
- [37:51]
Julia Minson
I think that's really good. And also hard work to do. And you kind of have to think about. I think you have to be careful about the timing of it. Right. Kind of the timing. And is that other person sort of, like, ready to receive that perspective?
- [38:11]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [38:12]
Julia Minson
So I had. I had a conversation a few days ago. My oldest daughter
- [38:22]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
had.
- [38:22]
Julia Minson
You know, they're like, there's a big group chat of all of her friends. And, you know, all these conversations happen on, you know, WhatsApp. And one of the boys said something that all of the girls found extremely offensive, and they're all very, very good friends. You know, this kid is like, really, the boy who said the offensive thing is really sort of dear, dear friend of my daughters. But she is really angry, and all the girls in the group are angry, and they're going on and on and on about how could he not get it? And we've explained it to him and we've clarified it to him and we've told him, and why doesn't he get it and why doesn't he admit that he is wrong? And. And I'm listening to it, and. And I'm thinking, well, maybe he's wrong, but I don't think he's as wrong as you guys claim. And his reluctance to admit that he is wrong to me suggests that the thing he says really matters to him. And there's sort of, like, something there that you all don't understand because you're too busy yelling at him and trying to convince him that he is wrong.
- [39:30]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right.
- [39:31]
Julia Minson
And so part of me wants to say this, but part of me is looking at my kid who seems really upset, Right? And so, like, is my job at the moment to, like, enlighten her or is my job in the moment just to support her? And I think you have to, like, you have to kind of read the room, which can be, you know, quite tricky.
- [39:50]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
I like the distinction and also the choice that we all have of Do I. Is this a moment to enlighten or support?
- [39:57]
Julia Minson
Right, right, right, right.
- [39:59]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And in general, okay, so my last question is sort of. Maybe this one is just a larger cultural question, which is people on social media or at dinner tables or walking around have both aligned and sort of been divided by what feels like very clear political views. And you hear People all the time saying, we're so polarized now. Everything's so divisive. We're. We're so extreme. Except that generally when I'm in conversation with people, they're not at all like that. So is there something easier about sort of being right and disagreeing unproductively when. When you're more distant? Is there anything to knowing people personally, to being able to have better conversations?
- [41:03]
Julia Minson
Yeah, there's a great phrase that I heard from Katie Couric, but I don't know if she is quoting somebody and who that is, but the phrase is. It's hard to hate up close.
- [41:13]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Oh, yeah, right.
- [41:15]
Julia Minson
In what you brought up, there's a bunch of things that is, I think, really worth unpacking. One is that we're not nearly as polarized as we believe we are. Right. So there's all kinds of research on this phenomenon of they call it false polarization, or sometimes they refer to it as the perception gap. Gap, which is, you know, basically, if you ask a bunch of Democrats and a bunch of Republicans what their actual views are. Right. And then you ask them to guess the other side's views, people tend to wildly overestimate the extremity of the other side. And the thing we underestimate is how complicated and nuanced the other side's views are. Right. So we kind of think that, like, you know, every Republican believes, you know, typical Republican things on all the issues, and every Democrat believes typical Democrat things on all the issues. And it turns out all of us have this, like, hodgepodge of policy views in our heads. And so when you talk to a human, they're not nearly the caricature that we imagine them to be in person. That comes out more. Right. In conversation, you get the complexity city a lot more. And of course, you know, social media and, you know, traditional media, right. Like, their job is making money. The job is how do I get clicks.
- [42:40]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right?
- [42:41]
Julia Minson
And so a lot of what is presented to us is the most inflammatory, the most extreme, the most like, you know, enraging content because that gets people to click.
- [42:57]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
It's so funny because there's something that shuts me down so quickly, and it's other people's certainty about something like that.
- [43:05]
Julia Minson
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And what I find on social media is the way the certainty with which people speak is also incredibly judgmental sounding. And so what happens is I probably agree with that person half the time, but I'm so turned off by the approach of their certainty that I'm like, I'm going to go look at the other perspective because this is so offensive to me. Just like as humans.
- [43:34]
Julia Minson
Right, right, right.
- [43:36]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And I don't know what that's about because sometimes the certainty is like about something that I could not argue with. Sometimes the certainty is about things like this one is the exception. Like this is the most certain thing about life that we know. And if you don't see that you are not a person or whatever. And I don't know what mechanism is at play, but even when I would have agreed with someone, I'm like, this is not the approach for me.
- [44:08]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [45:18]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
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Dr. Eliza Pressman
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Podcast Co-host or Moderator
It is not one of those skincare
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Dr. Eliza Pressman
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Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [46:28]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Let's go back to the two parts that we are, the two parts of the conversation, and that that will address perhaps what I'm getting at.
- [46:39]
Julia Minson
Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, what you're talking about is how can people speak when they're actually trying to deliver their own beliefs, Right? So we talked about, like, expressing curiosity when you're trying to elicit the other person's beliefs, but at some point you have your own beliefs and you want to say them out loud. And so how do you, like, not set the whole conversation on fire at that part? In our research, one of the things that we have found a lot of evidence for is the effectiveness of something I call the here framework horizontal. Like, I hear you. And so the H in here stands for hedging. It's words like sometimes, maybe, perhaps, you know, some people. It's a way of making yourself sound less certain. And what's really interesting about it is that most of the things that we sort of believe, we don't know with absolute certainty. So when we're hedging, we're actually being more accurate. Right? So, like, I could say, look, Covid vaccines are safe and effective, right? It's like a very sort of dogmatic, certain slightly judgy statement. Or I could say, look, most physicians tend to believe that Covid vaccines are largely safe and effective, Right? And so there's like three hedges in there. You know, most tend to largely. But it's a truer statement.
- [48:07]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yes.
- [48:08]
Julia Minson
The thing that's absolutely crazy making about hedging is that when I teach it, people say, well, aren't you just telling women to be more uncertain?
- [48:18]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Oh, wow.
- [48:19]
Julia Minson
And I'm like, no, I am telling what I'm actually, women are. Women do more hedging. And this, I think, is a good thing. I'm hoping that men will hedge more and more. Really, everybody should hedge more. Because I think it gets you away from making these, like, very dogmatic claims that really turn off your conversation counterpart.
- [48:41]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
I think what's extra hard about that, because I completely agree with you, obviously. And that's why talking about research in general is so hard, because if people are looking for certainty, that's not very. It's not going to be as easy to do with science.
- [48:54]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Right.
- [48:57]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
And also, people who speak with certainty get more Clicks or more listening. They're more effective sometimes, I guess, unless the audience is me where that bothers me. So I think it's really interesting because. And I really appreciate that you've been told, well, you're trying to. Aren't you just trying to make women do that more? Which. Or teaching that. But actually, this is up there with lists of things that women do that men could really benefit from. I will say that I've been told many times that I hedge too much and that it undermines my. You know what I'm saying. Or it makes it harder to know if what I'm saying is something with authority. So it's a very confusing message, because if you're in a disagreement, it certainly opens the door to. I'm curious, and I haven't said that I've got 100% certainty, but it also could indicate that, I guess you're in a weaker position of belief systems or something.
- [50:09]
Julia Minson
Yeah. So I think there's two things to consider there. I think hedging and certainty are fascinating. One is, you know, what is the conversation you're in? Quite often we get the same kind of, like, blanket advice for every conversation. Right. Like, women should be more confident when. Why? So I think, you know, like, if I'm presenting, you know, if I'm presenting data, if I'm pitching to a client, if I'm giving a keynote, I'm in front of a friendly audience that's there to listen to me and is, like, willing to take it in. Right?
- [50:49]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Right.
- [50:50]
Julia Minson
So I can afford to be much more direct in my claims. If I'm in an escalating conflict, my goal is different and my audience is in a very different place. So hedging in disagreement is, I think, much more useful. Right. Than if you are presenting, you know, a project plan and you're saying, well, maybe, possibly we could get this done by six months from now. Right. Yeah, I think that's one thing. And the other thing, I always sort of, you know, tell people, do this thought experiment. If you ask me, julia, how many children do you have? I should very quickly and clearly say three. Right. Like, if I said anything like, well, I think I possibly have three, like, you should worry. But if you say, julia, how many inches of snow is going to fall in Boston next year? I should not say 32. Right. Because that's an uncertain quantity. And so to demonstrate my understanding and my competence, I should say say that, you know, my confidence interval around the snow in Boston is somewhere between 24 and 42 inches. So depending on what the thing is, you have more or less claim to certainty.
- [52:23]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Great. Okay, so we did hedge.
- [52:27]
Julia Minson
Yes.
- [52:28]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
What's the ear of here?
- [52:31]
Julia Minson
Okay, so the E stands for emphasizing agreement. And, you know, the idea is that, like, no matter how much we disagree, we agree on something. We agree on some common values, we agree on some common concerns. We might just agree about the fact that this is an important topic and we need to sit down and talk about it. So it's phrases like, I agree with part of what you're saying, or I am also concerned with, or I would also like to. Right. So it's just taking like a few seconds to put us on the same side of the table so that we are now a little bit more in, like, joint problem solving mode. And I've shown you that I'm not just in a battle with you. I'm really sort of trying. Right. The A is the one that I think folks are the most familiar with. It's acknowledgement. Right. Acknowledging the other perspective. And I think, you know, the main problem with acknowledgment as normally executed is that people can be a little lazy about it. Right. So it's like, I hear you, but here's why you can't.
- [53:40]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
Like it's token.
- [53:42]
Julia Minson
Yes, yes. And it's like, you know, pat me on the head for hearing you, except for I haven't proven to you that I've hurt you. Right? Right. So real acknowledgement should sort of restate the other person's point so that you have proven with your words that you were listening. Right. And then the R stands for reframing to the positive. So it's avoiding things like no, can't, won't, don't, terrible, hate, kill. Right. And replacing it with more positively valence words like, it would be so wonderful if. Or I really appreciated when. Or thank you for. Right. So thank you for sharing that point of view. Right. And it's, you know, people sometimes, I think, struggle with reframing, especially in conflict, because it feels like. It feels a little bit like too happy, huggy. Like we're just going to replace everything with rainbows and sunshine. But we tend to mimic each other's tone. And so when you offer a more positive, constructive tone, it just has huge power to bring your counterpart to that same place. Right. You're sort of like shaping their behavior by modeling what you want to see. So instead of, you know, instead of sounding weak, it's actually giving you control over how the conversation is going to go.
- [55:17]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
I mean, that here is so great for conversations with kids.
- [55:25]
Julia Minson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like print it out, tape it to your wall, tape it to your fridge.
- [55:32]
Podcast Co-host or Moderator
So helpful. I'm just like, I can envision those components making the disagreements goes so much better.
- [55:43]
Julia Minson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. Seems to work very well for people.
- [55:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Thank you for joining me for this conversation. Please stick around and subscribe to this channel for more episodes and practical content that you can learn from and use in your parenting in real time. Watch the next video here or sign up for my substack newsletter@doctoralisapressman.substack.com and get consider becoming a paid subscriber for access to Me Live each month in our subscriber Q and A.