Mattering: The Secret to Building a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose w/ Jennifer Wallace

Summary

Raising Good Humans Podcast

Episode Title: Mattering: The Secret to Building a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose
Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman
Guest: Jennifer Wallace (Author of Never Enough)
Date: January 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Aliza Pressman sits down with Jennifer Wallace to explore “mattering”—the fundamental human need to feel significant, appreciated, invested in, and depended upon. Building on her research from Never Enough, Wallace discusses how mattering is the antidote to toxic achievement culture and lays out tangible strategies for both kids and adults to build deep connection and purpose in daily life. The conversation delves into Jennifer’s "SAID" framework, how parents and caregivers can foster mattering, the importance of social friction, and practical steps to rebuild community and resilience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is “Mattering”—and Why Does it Matter?

[01:43 – 05:36]

• Jennifer Wallace recounts researching students thriving despite high achievement pressure and discovering their resilience came from “mattering”—feeling valued for intrinsic qualities and being needed by family, school, and community.

  “[Mattering] acted like a kind of buoy that would lift them up. So their setbacks were not an indictment of their worth. They felt like they mattered, no matter what.” (Jennifer Wallace, 03:13)

• Adults, too, suffer from a lack of mattering, often feeling replaceable, unseen, or disconnected from their communities.

  “If we want to make a dent in the youth mental health crisis, we need to go upstream and take care of the adults in their lives.” (Jennifer Wallace, 03:40)

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2. Framing Mattering: The SAID Framework

[05:36 – 13:26]
Jennifer's SAID framework offers four building blocks for mattering:

S – Significance

• Feeling important to others, usually demonstrated by small, attentive gestures—“mattering is in the details.”

  “We crave as humans is significance in the mundane...to matter in our daily lives.” (Jennifer Wallace, 07:13)

• Example: Remembering how someone likes their pasta cooked.

A – Appreciated

• Moving beyond basic gratitude by appreciating the “doer behind the deed.”

  “It's appreciating the doer behind the deed. That's how we reinforce mattering.” (Jennifer Wallace, 09:05)

• Workplace example: Don’t just thank a coworker for organizing an event—appreciate their quality as a community-builder.

I – Invested In

• Feeling others are actively invested in our wellbeing or success, acting as “corner men” (boxing analogy: the coach supporting a fighter).
• The concept of “ego extension”—feeling joy in others’ success as if it were your own.

  “In our hyper-competitive culture...we feel it’s unnatural that someone else’s win is our loss. But we’re not wired to be that way.” (Jennifer Wallace, 10:53)

D – Depended Upon

• Being relied on or needed, which gives meaning and combats feelings of drift or emptiness (especially after life transitions like retirement or kids leaving home).

  “Human relationships provide friction. And it's in the friction that meaning comes.” (Jennifer Wallace, 19:51)

• Technology and emphasis on independence often strip away healthy dependency and interdependence.

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3. Mattering and Social Health: Embracing Friction and Repair

[18:27 – 22:04]

• Friction in relationships—such as minor annoyances or shortcomings—is essential for genuine connection.

  “We have lost a tolerance for friction. And human relationships provide friction. And it's in the friction that meaning comes.” (Jennifer Wallace, 19:51)

• Avoiding all dependency or discomfort can lead to loneliness and shallow relationships.
• Dr. Pressman emphasizes the value of interdependence over extreme independence for both kids and adults.

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4. Balancing Mattering to Others and to Self

[22:06 – 24:45]

• True mattering is balanced, not the exhaustion of constant overgiving.
• The Mayo Clinic study: Small group support for busy physicians reduced stress and increased wellbeing.
• Jennifer’s daily practice: Identify and meet one personal need each day (“self-care is other care”), plus maintaining “cornermen” friendships.

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5. Building an Other-Oriented Mindset and Family Culture

[24:45 – 30:18]

• Importance of family as "first society" where kids learn responsibility and contribution.

  “Learning how to be a contributing member to the family...is how we raise future citizens...they don’t matter more or less than others, but they have responsibilities.” (Jennifer Wallace, 26:13)

• Avoid making chores or inclusion optional—these help children learn they are needed and matter to the group.

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6. Creating Your Village – Practical Community Building

[30:46 – 37:37]

• The “power of invitation”—most people wait to be included; take the courage to initiate gatherings.

  “Harnessing the power of invitation is both saying yes and also issuing an invitation. It takes a little bit of social courage.” (Jennifer Wallace, 31:38)

• Use scaffolding (shared purpose/activity) to forge connections: article clubs, soup nights, mahjong groups, walking clubs.
• Consistency and prioritization deepen group bonds and reinforce mattering.

  “For the two hours a month we did get together, we feel like a priority in each other's lives.” (Jennifer Wallace, 34:16)

• Even seemingly “light” activities yield deep mattering and emotional payoff.

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7. Mattering as a Muscle—Daily Practice & Mindset

[40:43 – 47:16]

• Mattering should be intentionally cultivated.
• Jennifer’s challenge: Imagine everyone you meet wears a sign that says, “tell me, do I matter?” Respond with warmth, a smile, or genuine appreciation—it could change their day.

  “All of us can answer that with a smile, with warmth, with encouragement. It does not take much to make someone feel like they matter.” (Jennifer Wallace, 41:33)

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8. Unconditional Worth—"You Matter, Period"

[47:16 – 52:09]

• The irreplaceable value of communicating unconditional love and worth (“I love you, period”), separate from achievement or specific attributes.

  “That’s not why I love you. That’s why I appreciate you. But I love you, period...there’s nothing, it’s like, that’s it, that’s not going anywhere.” (Dr. Aliza Pressman, 48:11)

• Our culture mistakenly ties worth to accomplishment, but family and friendship should be the safe harbor where we matter no matter what.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the roots of mattering:

  "This need, we inherited it from our earliest ancestors. To matter to the band...was how we survived.”
  —Jennifer Wallace, 04:35

• On social friction as meaningful:

  "It's in the friction that meaning comes. And so if you are in your life thinking 'I'm feeling lonely, I am feeling like my relationships are hollow,' I think…are you allowing friction?"
  —Jennifer Wallace, 19:51

• On building communities:

  “You can create these kinds of groups in all different ways, and you can have multiple groups. But it starts with an invitation.”
  —Jennifer Wallace, 35:35

• On actionable mattering:

  “The fastest way to feel like you matter is to tell someone else why they do.”
  —Jennifer Wallace, 51:40

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Practical Takeaways

• Use the SAID framework (Significance, Appreciation, Investment, Depended upon) to boost mattering in yourself and others.
• Foster “friction” and real-life interdependence—don’t over-correct toward total independence, which breeds isolation.
• Build rituals and small groups (article club, walking group, meal nights) to anchor relationships and prioritize connection.
• Model and communicate unconditional worth to your children and partners—separating appreciation from love or worthiness.
• Practice small daily actions: reach out, genuinely appreciate others, and don’t wait to be invited—be the inviter.

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Memorable Segment Timestamps

• 03:13 – The buoyancy of mattering against setbacks
• 07:13 – Mattering “in the details”
• 09:05 – Appreciating the “doer behind the deed”
• 10:53 – Wrong beliefs about competition and mattering
• 19:51 – The importance of friction in relationships
• 34:16 – Article club as prioritizing mattering
• 41:33 – The “tell me, do I matter?” challenge
• 48:11 – “I love you, period” as the ultimate gift
• 51:40 – The fastest way to feel like you matter

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Final Words

Jennifer Wallace’s work, grounded in research and rich in practical wisdom, clarifies that mattering isn’t just a feel-good concept—it’s protective, energizing, and actionable. In a culture that often equates value with achievement, families, friends, and communities have a chance to flip the script: making “you matter, period” their foundational message and daily practice.

Transcript

[Jennifer Wallace]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman, and I'm so excited to share with you this episode on mattering with New York Times bestselling author Jennifer Wallace, the secret to a life of deep connection and purpose. Jenny wrote a book that we've talked about a couple of times on this podcast called Never Enough. And this is the book that she wished she had written before. She wrote Never Enough about achievement culture and kind of the toxic part of achievement culture and what we can do about it. And the real antidote is for humans, adults and kids to have a deep sense of mattering. So that's today's episode, and I Hope everybody enjoys 2026 as a year to both feel deep mattering themselves and to give others that deep sense. And we're going to show you how to do that. All right, so we have been waiting for this mattering book since you wrote Never Enough. Can you just help everybody frame what is mattering? Why did you realize or how did you realize how important mattering was? And maybe just a little bit for those who don't know what Never Enough was, just in case, on the off chance that they don't know about all of this, can you frame this? Can you tee up this conversation?

[Jennifer Wallace]

Totally. So I published Never Enough about achievement culture in young people and how. How there was so much pressure on young people to achieve that they were struggling with heightened anxiety, depression, substance abuse disorder. And I went in search of the kids who were doing well despite the pressure. They had a lot in common, but it boiled down to mattering that the kids who were doing well despite the pressure felt like they mattered for who they were at their core, away from their achievements and successes. And importantly, they were relied on, depended on, to add value back to their families through chores, at school, in the wider community. So these kids had a kind of protective shield. Didn't mean that they didn't have setbacks. It didn't mean that they didn't bomb tests or not get into the college that they wanted to. But mattering acted like a kind of buoy that would lift them up. So their setbacks were not an indictment of their worth. They felt like they mattered no matter what. So what I heard over and over again in my conversations with families was that so many of the adults felt like they didn't matter. I spoke with doctors who worked at major medical centers who felt crushed by insurance companies. One doctor described feeling like she was being killed, death by 1000 clicks, because her Entire practice had transformed from looking at her patient's eyes to looking at the computer screen. Other people I interviewed were people working in finance who felt completely interchangeable, that if they stopped going to work and quit the next day, they'd easily be replaced. They didn't feel known, they felt lonely in their workplaces. They felt lonely in their neighborhoods. They didn't know their neighbors. They felt lonely in their friendships, even their good friendships. They didn't feel known, they didn't feel prioritized. So for. For this book, what I've come to realize is that if we want to make a dent in the youth mental health crisis, we need to go upstream and take care of the adults in their lives. That our children's sense of mattering, unconditional worth it, rests on the adults in their lives feeling it as well. Feeling it, modeling it, creating an ecosystem so that children can grow up in that ecosystem of mattering.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

What is mattering exactly? You just interview yourself. That's exactly right.

[Jennifer Wallace]

So mattering is a fundamental human need that all of us have. It's universal to feel valued and to have an opportunity to add value to the world around us. This need, we inherited it from our earliest ancestors. To matter to the band, to matter to each other, was how we survived. Feeling like we didn't matter to the group, we weren't valued meant certain death. Sense of mattering is still wired in us today. And what I have found in my research and what I argue in the book is that I have yet to meet someone who fully experiences this. Well, that's not true. I have met people who fully experience mattering, and I talk about them in the book. But the overwhelming majority of people are walking around today having this unmet need to matter. And I think it's because so many of us are living our lives on autopilot. We have so much incoming, so many demands on our time, our mental bandwidth, and so many expectations of output that we're just going on autopilot to get through our day. But what I love about mattering is that it wakes you up to the world and it helps you notice the positive impact you make. And it prompts you to want to tell others the positive impact they make on your life.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Okay, so, because part of this is like, are you even noticing? Like, you don't know what you don't know. So some people might be on autopilot and not even know the impact that this has. So the awareness of it, I think, like first steps. But can you kind of go through your said framework so that we can make this really concrete.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Great. So I will say, like, the symptoms of feeling like you don't matter are the symptoms of loneliness, disengagement, sense of meaninglessness, a sense of purposelessness. So if you are feeling those feelings, mattering can help you. To me, I have found mattering to be the ultimate and only self help tool that we probably need both for our own health, but also our social health, which is really fraying right now. So this said work. Here's what I love about mattering. Researchers have found the ingredients to mattering. This is not a mystery. There is a way of dialing up our sense of mattering in ourselves and in the people that we care about. So I've put together something called the said framework that really hits on the four core components to mattering. So it's feeling significant, feeling appreciated, feeling invested in and feeling depended on. So I'll just quickly break it down for you.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Take your time.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Feeling significant. Feeling significant is not having people toast you every week. Those are great. We have moments when milestones where we really feel a sense of significance. But what we crave as humans is significance in the mundane, to matter in the mundane, to matter in our daily lives. And so to feel a sense of significance is to feel like you are important to the people around you, that you are prioritized in some way. And the way we can make people in our life feel prioritized. My mother does this. I call it mattering is in the details. So my mother remembers small things about, you know, my daughter loves rigatoni. So my mother knows when she's cooking on Christmas. You know when she's cooking. My mother knows when she's cooking dinner for us that my daughter will love rigatoni and she loves it cooked al dente. That is mattering. That is knowing I know this child. Her needs are a priority in my mind. So mattering is just in these small little details. Feeling.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Does your daughter then not even maybe not on purpose, but just show your mom how much she matters for having noticed that, like how she appreciates it.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Yes, she appreciates it and here's how she appreciates it. So there are a couple of ways we can appreciate one that just appreciates the deed. Like thanks grandma for making this delicious pasta. Or it's thanking someone in a way that reinforces the sense of mattering. So grandma, thank you so much for always thinking about me. You make me feel so important. You know everything I love and you are such an incredibly devoted grandmother. That is a way of feeding Someone's needs. So it's appreciating the doer behind the deed. So that's how we reinforce mattering. If you're in the workplace, instead of saying to your colleague who's always putting together the five o' clock drinks, instead of saying thank you for always gathering us together for happy hour, to really reinforce mattering, you would say thank you for being the kind of colleague that always thinks about the best way to build community. It's because of you that we are so close as a department. So it's appreciating the doer behind the deed.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I love that so much.

[Jennifer Wallace]

The next thing is invested in. So we all know how important it is to have people in our lives that we feel are invested in our success, that want to see us succeed, that are invested in our goals. But we rarely talk about in our zero sum culture what it does to someone to be the investor, to be what I call in the book a cornerman. So if you don't know what a cornerman is, I didn't know before researching this book. A cornerman is somebody who works with a boxer in the ring during the tournament. He's there, he can see around edges, he can see what the boxer can't see. He can deliver tough love when he needs it. That fighter's success, that boxer success feels like their success. So what I love about investment when it comes to mattering is this concept that researchers call ego extension. It sounds really wonky, but stick with me here. Ego extension is this idea of extending your ego. I physically think about extending my ego. So it includes the success of the people in my life that I care about. So their successes feel like my successes. And I say this all the time to my kids, that if you are looking for more joy in your life, and I say this to anybody, yeah, you need to tap into the joy of your friends. I love nothing. Most of my joy in my life frankly is my friends successes. I have so many wonderful friends doing wonderful things. I get so much joy from that. And you know, I think in our zero sum culture, this hyper competitive culture that we sometimes feel like we live in, we feel like it's unnatural that somebody else's win is our loss. But we're not wired to be that way. We are wired to want success for our band, to want success for the people in our group. And so I would encourage people to tap into that because that is a free resource of joy.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I'm smiling so big. I have to interrupt this one part because I just know you And I like, you do this, like, you live this. And it's so hard not to feel well up as you're talking about it, because I just know that you walk this walk and it feels so good to be in your band, you know?

[Jennifer Wallace]

Thank you. I feel very invested in you, and you are one of the. You are one of the people that I get a lot of joy from. You have a lot of fun to watch you soar. It's just so, so fun to watch the people in our lives soar. So, anyway, thank you and thank you for your investment in me and one of my. One of my love languages. And you provide this for me as do my, you know, the people that I really trust in my circle. One of my love languages is Frank Feedback. I want to know. I want to know, you know, how to do something better. What I didn't do right, I trust. So that, to me, is an act of love. When people are willing to invest in me and deliver me news so that I can get better. I don't need people in my life. I have them, and they're lovely, who are very flattering and compliment me. That's so nice. But that's not an investment in me. The people that are invested in me are the people willing to say the hard things so I can be better.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

But I think, like, you mean that. And also, just, like, it's because of what you said, the deep investment. I don't think it would come across well if it was, like, not rooted in. I'm so in your corner. I have to tell you this because I'm so excited to watch you soar versus I really enjoy just nitpicking or giving negative feedback.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Yes. And I think the way to sort of feel the difference between those is, and I say this to my kids, this was something I didn't learn early enough in life. But notice your nervous system when you're around somebody. Is this someone that you can feel comfortable with, at peace with, vulnerable with, or is this someone where you feel like you need to watch what you say that your body knows? If this is a person that is invested in you and has your vested interest. I mean, there must be a term for this in psychology that I don't know.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Well, when you talk about that term. That's attunement.

[Jennifer Wallace]

That's attunement.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

It really is, and we'll get to it. But it's a different kind of attunement because we think of attunement as this deeper connection that feels like it couldn't spread across a larger group in your life, but actually how your nervous system feels when you're in the room with someone. The positive version of that is like this attunement that you're co regulating together and you're just like, I like we're safe together, let's just do this. Versus that sense of exact description you gave and your physicality of like buttoning up your shirt and just feeling like I have to be on guard. It's something we really need to get our kids to understand through our lived day to day experience of like there really are those people that you're just like, okay, we're here. Like we've got each other. Like this whole conversation is authentic and we're safe and there's just something so beautiful about it. And I think every single thing you describe is naming what really matters.

[Jennifer Wallace]

What really matters.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Jennifer Wallace]

The idea that there are people that depend on you, that you are needed. One of the things that I think people really struggle with when they face an empty nest or they retire is the idea that they are not as needed anymore. We need to feel needed. The other thing I will say is that many people today reject the idea of being needed. Many people today do not want relationships that feel like others are relying on them. They want their freedom. And it's something that I just look at with a little bit of curiosity. Why is it that people don't want to be relied on anymore? And I think one of the reasons is that technology has made life so frictionless. It press a button and you can get your groceries delivered. Press a button, you can get your food delivered. You could get your toiletries. You never have to interact with another human. And how sometimes just going to the drugstore and having to wait in line and then somebody messes up and there are lot we have lost a tolerance for friction. And human relationships provide friction. And it's in the friction that meaning comes. And so if you are in your life thinking I am feeling lonely, I am feeling like my relationships are hollow, I think one of the things you could ask Yourself is, am I allowing friction? I'm not saying friction. Having people in your life who drive you nuts and who don't have your best interest. I'm saying, like, the everyday friction of a friend who's always a little late, somebody who says they're gonna call, forgets to call. Like, those are things that are annoyances, and they create friction. That is what part of that's what life is about. And the idea of the repair. Right, That I can repair this friction and we could be even stronger because we matter to each other. And I think that gets lost when people cut people out of their lives so abruptly. I'm not saying that some people shouldn't be cut off, but I'm saying if you are feeling this loneliness, think about, are you letting people rely and depend on you in healthy ways?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So we should say, it goes without saying that these conversations are not about the extremes where you're experiencing abuse from someone or neglect from someone and you need to cut them out of your life. Like, let's just let go of needing to do caveats so we can just be comfortable. We're talking about for the majority of people in the majority of circumstances. And it's so true that, like, there's a difference between, you know, this is asking too much of me, and realizing how we kind of need people to ask something of us. Like, we forgot about that in this. It's kind of like in the independence culture, you. We're still people. We have to be interdependent like you. I mean, you know this. But I think that it's worth saying here that people might have overcorrected on certain things, and now we're stuck alone.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Yes, exactly. We're stuck alone. And some of the people that I've talked to in the book who were really struggling with not feeling like they mattered, describe feeling adrift. You know, I think about if you're not depended on, if you don't have people relying on you, that's when you feel like you're drifting. You know, there was that book, the Unbearable Lightness of Being.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Oh, my God, I love that book.

[Jennifer Wallace]

The Unbearable Lightness of Being is feeling like you don't matter. It's no one is relying on you. You are not getting that social proof that Reliance offers you. Now, I want to make another caveat because I know that there are a lot of people listening who are caregivers and who might be saying, oh, the problem isn't that I don't matter. It's that I matter too much, that I Matter too much to my kids, to my workplace, to my aging parents. So that is not true mattering. True mattering is about balance, balancing our own needs with the needs of others. And I have struggled for years trying to figure out how to create that kind of balance. And our mutual contact, Sonia Luther, showed me how to create that kind of balance. She conducted a study at the Mayo Clinic where busy physician mothers were reported reporting low levels of well being, feeling really stressed out at work and at home. And she had this small intervention to meet for one hour a week in these small groups where people could open up, where they could support one another. They did this for 12 weeks. Nobody dropped out. Cortisol levels, the stress hormone dropped. The women reported greater sense of well being, even feeling like better parents. And so what I have come to realize as a caregiver, I have three teenagers, well, two teenagers and a 20 year old, and I have, you know, an aging mother, is that I need to balance mattering to myself with mattering to others. And that is not something that we necessarily normalize or tell caregivers. And so just this little practice since researching mattering that I've started doing, every morning I wake up and I say to myself, what is one small need that I have today that I need to meet so that I could show up as my best self for the people I care about? So in this way, self care is other care. So that's one thing I do, one small need. So maybe it's having my coffee, going for a walk. Whatever it is that is for me, I protect it. I don't wait until the to do list is done and everybody else's needs are met. I've become a little radical in my self prioritization. And I do make sure every day I have one need that is met. And the other thing I do is I have that group of corner women in my life. The women who I know are invested in me that I check in with and I have these deep, meaningful friendships that feed my mattering and make me more resilient.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

The obligations that we've started to reject, like we don't want our kids to learn to say yes to things that they don't want to do. Somehow, like, it's getting confused. So let's say you have a commitment to Sunday night with grandparents or, I don't know, I'm fantasizing about like different rituals that you might have. So let's say it's like Sunday night with grandparents or Friday night, game night with family. And over the years, it starts to be burdensome to your kids. I feel like I'm trying to think of a good example. I'm sure you have one of how. What are the questions we can ask ourselves to decide how to get more comfortable saying, hey, I know this feels like a demand that you don't want to do and here's why your attendance matters or here's why you're doing it anyway matters.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Well, as you're talking, I'm hearing about something that came up again and again in my interviews with families about how parents would say things like my, my, my child's job is to be a student, not to volunteer, not to do chores. Their job is to do is to be a student. Another parent might say, I don't get involved. I don't tell my children that they have to include other people that I feel like that's not my job. They should be able to set their own social lives. And I'm sorry if feelings get hurt. That's life. And those two examples, I think beg the question. You are so family is the first society, first introduction to society for a child. So learning how to be a contributing member to the family, like through chores, like through cleaning up after dinner is how we raise future citizens of the world that know that they have a role, that they don't matter more than other people, they don't matter less than other people, but they have responsibilities. And the other thing the mother who said to me, my children make their own decisions. I'm with you. I don't tell my kids who to be friends with. But there is a bar that all of us have on how we need to behave with the people around us. And our behavior cannot be sending anti mattering signals to people. And so you don't always get what you want. Sometimes you do have to include the person because not including them would be really devastating. And that's not who you are. You're not that person. So I guess what I'm talking about is helping our kids develop an other oriented mindset. So balancing thinking about themselves and their own needs with the needs of others. Because when we don't.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

No, everything you're saying is so important. So I am actually upset that I interrupted that thought.

[Jennifer Wallace]

My point in saying this, ultimately it comes down to our children developmentally have this very narrow self focused lens on themselves. And I believe it is a parent's job to turn that lens outward. Not just because we need to raise them to be good humans, but also because it is protective of them that we know that these narrowly Focused mindsets where I notice every flaw, every struggle that that sets my kid up for mental health struggles and social struggles.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yes. Getting into that other mindset is so protective. So thank you for saying that. Because yes, at first glance, it's also about like raising good humans. And you're just like, these are the values in this household. And we have to figure out a way to balance you having a sense of autonomy and agency and also you feeling this sense that you are dependent on. And also it's so protective. To your point, like we have to get out of our such inner focus. I just think maybe this happened because we had no authentic inner focus. Like we weren't allowed to think about that long ago, but now I think people are pretty good at thinking about like, especially young people, what they need. Unless you have like a real people pleasing situation going on and everybody has, you know, knows their kids best. But I think what you're saying is so such a beautiful way to get them out of that focus so they can actually get into mattering, like a deep sense of mattering. So I wonder just because I think those are great examples. Something as simple as like, I was talking about dinner with grandparents or something on Sundays. But let's say you have so much homework because your kids are getting older and it's Sunday night and they like don't clear the table and put the dishes away and you feel guilty cause you're like, they have so much work to do. It really does make a priority about the work and not the five minutes of giving to this community. So I actually do want you to talk more about that. I take it back.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Well, I will say there is something which is called a helper's high, which is the idea that when we help others, we get a boost in energy. We often think that, that we need to like protect our time or protect our kids time. But actually having them use some of that time in ways that contribute to others is a way of boosting their energy. It's not a drain to help others. It's actually energizing.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Okay, so we're helping others. We're thinking about mattering. We need to can't do this alone. There is a deep sense of loneliness. Can you talk a little bit about how we're creating the village that we need? Like, what if people are like, I don't have. I don't even know where to begin or I don't know how to do this.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Yeah. So I think it's okay to not know how to do this. I think we have very much as a society, these skills, these social skills of building deep connections have atrophied. So one, I would say don't judge yourself. Put it into context. Understand that the world has shifted and it is not just you. So I would say the first thing I would do is I would harness the power of invitation. And what I mean by that is, I'll give you an example. There was a woman I interviewed in the book who went through a horrible divorce. And she was saying to her therapist, I'm tired of being the fifth wheel. It's always awkward at our dinners when I'm out with other couples and they're paying for me. So she pulled away and then she, of course, became lonelier. And so the therapist said, how about you host dinner parties? How about you invite people to you? So harnessing the power of invitation is both saying yes and also issuing an invitation. And it takes a little bit of social courage. And I will tell you that most people out there are lonely, that everyone thinks everybody has it all together. Relationships are so frayed and hollowed out because of the crazy busyness of our culture. I will tell you that if you start issuing a few invitations, more likely than not you will get one or two yeses. And that's all you need to start building this. Just one or two people. I'll give you another piece of advice that I have found to be so useful in building these kinds of relationships, to think about scaffolding. So instead of reaching out to people and saying, I want to be friends, build it around something so randomly. Elisa and I actually are in this group together randomly. Like a year and a half ago, two people reached out to me and said, we're starting this once a month club where we're going to read a big article, a deep article, and we're going to sit in each other's kitchens and we're going to eat lunch together and we're going to talk about the article. I didn't know many of the people in this group, but it was friends of friends of friends of friends. And a year and a half later, this is a very deep, cohesive group of women. And it is because we have prioritized each other. So for the two hours a month that we did get together, we feel like a priority in each other's lives. So start your own little article club.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

By the way, article is really doable.

[Jennifer Wallace]

It's really doable.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Like if you're like, book club is not happening.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Yes, book club. These are busy. The women in this group are Busy professional women who, many of them are caregivers as well. And so an article, a three page article about an interesting topic and the person who's hosting it is the one who chooses it. And then you eat in the kitchen. I don't cook, so I always order in. But other people do cook. And there's something very intimate. It's so intimate. And your house doesn't work completely immaculate. Right? It's intimate. We sit on each other's floor and we huddle. And it is this really beautiful group of women who have said, I'm going to invest in this group and I am going to show up for it and I'm going to make this a priority. And so think about who are the people you can issue an invitation to. Think about the scaffolding. Maybe you don't want to do an article group. Maybe you want to do a once a month mahjong or a soup club where everybody hosts different people and you all eat soup or whatever it is. Think about a theme that you can institute. It could be a walking club, it could be anything. And then commit to it. Put it in the calendar. The reason this article club works is because we prioritize each other to show up for it. And when someone doesn't make it, they are very missed. And we tell them that, that they matter so much that their voice was missed in this club. So you can create these kinds of groups in all different ways. And you can have multiple groups.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jennifer Wallace]

But it starts with an invitation.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And if you have younger kids, like if you have babies, then you can have your babies right there. It's these things. Of course we have older people, we're like inching toward empty nesting more than having little kids at home. So recognizing that this is really hard. But if you don't do something, even if it's not exactly as it, you know, as you fantasize it would be, or even if there are lots of babies spitting up everywhere, it's so that commitment and group is so cool. That's a really good example. And I just, as you know, have started to be obsessed with mahjong. And so that's like. But who has time for that? And what I've realized is if you are doing something while connecting, then you don't feel like you're not. You're feeding so many things. I mean, as I say this, I realize it sounds like totally counter. It doesn't have to have a goal.

[Jennifer Wallace]

It doesn't have to have a goal.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

It could just be hanging.

[Jennifer Wallace]

But I do Think scaffolding. Scaffolding matters. And the scaffolding could be potluck dinner. It could be Sunday soups. It could be article club. It could be a book club. It could be. I started this other group because these things are working so well in my life. My, my husband actually created a, he calls it Wednesday night group. But the trick is they never meet on a Wednesday night. So anyway, so part of the fun is that it's called this name Wednesday night group that has nothing to do with Wednesdays. But he has a group of men who like article club that he brought together. And they now have, I don't know how often they go out, but it's every few weeks. And they really. It's about prioritizing each other. That is what makes these so special.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And now for a quick break. All right, so I got a giant package of the prettiest. I mean, pretty is a kind of funny word to use because these are broths. But these brodo broths that come in great packaging. You twist the top off and heat it up and you have amazing bone broths. I've always wanted to try bone broth. I've read about it. I'm like wanting to do it, but also, I'm never homemaking bone broth, if I'm honest. So I was really excited about brodo and I'm excited to tell you that it's delicious broth. So if your morning coffee isn't cutting it, or if you just like need a steaming cup of something nourishing and you just need a little pick me up, try bone broth. I cannot tell you how much I expected the taste to be icky and then it wasn't. It's actually really good and there are different flavors. So since we know that bone broth is good for you, it's been around and people have been talking about it, but it's a little bit overwhelming to try to think about making it or figuring out the best brand. I have it for you. Brodo's bone broth. So get that as your cozy drink. I don't put it in a bowl. I put it in a mug and it's collagen rich, it's clean, and it's made by an award winning chef. Shop the best broth on the planet with brodo. Head to brodo.com humans for 20% off your first subscription order. Use the code humans for an additional $10 off. Once again, that's Brodo.com humans for 20% off your first subscription order and an additional $10 off if you use my promo code, humans. So I think as you're talking about almost feels like too light of an intervention to really give you this deep sense of mattering. Except that I think those are these things we threw away as this. In this culture, we don't have time for this. And they're so powerful. Like, I joined article club late just to use that example. And the deep sense of immediate, like, being. I can't even explain it, but it's like you're welcomed into the wings of these caring people that seem like they really authentically, like, want. They're just like, everybody has each other's backs and is curious what everyone thinks. And it's so cool. And I just think that those things get. Especially when you have kids, you just throw away those things as the extra things you don't have time for anymore. And then slowly, over time, it just chips away at your sense of connection.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Very much. Very much. And if you feel the guilt, which I used to feel when my kids were little, spending time away from them, it is the best thing you can do for your kids because you show up having had lunch with your friends or going out for a meal, and you feel better. You're sturdier, you're more resilient for your child. So it's not just for you that you do it. It's for the people that you love.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So, I mean, how much? And the reason why I love this whole mattering movement is because it's a lot of bang for your buck. If you're really thinking about in getting our kids to grow up with this buffer, than just really investing in it and committing to it ourselves, that just gets in the water in our household.

[Jennifer Wallace]

It does. It is the best way to go through life. I will tell you. I discovered this seven years ago in researching Never Enough. It has totally changed my life. It has helped me. It's given me this framework for thinking about the world around me and my place in it. And recently, I've adopted this challenge, which I do not meet every day, but I try, and that's to imagine everyone I meet, whether they are strangers or friends or colleagues, with a sign around their neck that says, tell me, do I matter? And what I have realized is that all of us can answer that with a smile, with warmth, with encouragement. It does not take much to make someone feel like they matter. And we are in such a mattering, deprived world that there's almost no one you will meet that will have too much mattering. Everyone can use that reinforcement Everyone can use that sense of feeling valued.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I was thinking about this when my daughter, you know, my daughter was talking to me. My daughter saw Jenny speak at her school a couple of years ago and was like blown away and came home to tell me about it. And it was like she felt seen in a deep way in a big, you know, auditorium, which I think is just. I like telling you that over and over because how many of us could imagine what a gift that is to be able to reach a young person in that way? But one of the things that we talk about a lot is like in a high achieving culture, how do you. Where there's a lot of emphasis on how much people matter in that community when they're really achieving something. So there's plenty of acknowledgement of the big stuff. But how do you also matter in a place where everybody seems like such a star and star, like starring, like being exceptional is so valued, how do you still value that? Because you can't get away from it. Let's say that's just. That is your community while still being able to let every adult and every child in that space have that sign that you're talking about.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Well, I'll tell you that what I have come to realize is that parents in particular and partners, a very specific and important role in our culture today, which is to be the voice that says to the people that we love, you are not your failures, you are not your successes. I love you no matter what. And we cannot say that enough. Our kids are living in a world where certain people matter more. One of the things I love to say to young people when I go and I speak at schools is I say, I want you to tell me. I want you. The next time you are scrolling on social media or looking at an ad or whatever you're doing and you get that ping that you're not enough, I want you to pause and I want you to think, who is profiting off of making me feel that way? Because there's always someone making money. And this is true of adults too. Who is profiting off of making you feel like you're not enough? When we moved from a religious society, which I'm not saying was perfect, problematic, but we moved from a religious society where all the major religions were consistent in this idea of unconditional worth, that you mattered simply because you were a child of God, you were on this earth. We have lost that. We have replaced religion with capitalism. And who matters in a hyper capitalistic world? The people who matter are the ones that are the Biggest contributors to capitalism. Those are the people with the big jobs. Who doesn't matter in capitalism, Young people, unless they're consumers, and older people, who are not necessarily contributing to capitalism. So this is a long way of saying parents and partners and best friends play a very specific and important role today, which is to protect the idea that the people in our lives matter no matter what. And we cannot say this enough to them that you matter no matter what. So that, to me, is how we raise people who can thrive in high pressured environments because when they have setbacks. Because if you are reaching for high goals, if you are reaching for success, and I am not anti success, I get so much joy from achieving, but I do. I love it. But it's not necessarily. There's this great job Jesuit motto that we've adopted in our own family, which is not better than others, but better for others. So I am not just achieving for myself. I'm not just achieving so that I have a book on my articles. Yeah. For the rank or whatever it is of a book. I am achieving because I discovered this idea of mattering. And I want to give it to people because it is a gift that I got and I want to pass this gift on. I stumbled upon this gift and I want to give it. So helping our kids understand that they're not just succeeding for themselves, they're succeeding for others is one way of helping to control the pressure. And another way is to constantly remind them of their unconditional worth, that they are not their successes, they are not their failures. They are who they are, no matter what. They matter no matter what.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I remember this happened when I got married. I had to think about, like, we didn't do this, we didn't do vows. Like, we just did our. You know, what you're supposed to do, like what you're told. But at this moment, where we were going to write vows and I have this with my kids all the time, which is I love you, period. There's no. It's just I love you, period. And I was thinking about this because we are so trained to say why and why in the sense of what we were talking about earlier about these, like, truly, like, appreciative. Let me just say this particular thing that I'm noticing about you, that's separate, because that's not why I love you. That's why I appreciate you. But I love you is just. I was like, I just wanna say, like, I love you, period. It does all these other. There are many reasons that I could come up with and many things about your partner, your kids. But there's something like that gets lost in that cause. Then it's like, well, what if any of those things go away? Or what if I don't like to do that anymore? Like, do I like getting coffee brought to me every morning? I do. But would I love you anyway? And with kids, I've always done I love you, period. Because my little one pointed out whenever I would say, you know, I love you no matter what, after she did something or like, if, you know, there was a positive accomplishment or whatever, it just started to be this thing in our family of wait a second. When you start to put caveats or praise after the I love you, there's something so conditional about it all of a sudden. But when it's I love you, period, there's nothing. It's like, that's it. That's not going anywhere. And then from that we can like jump forward. And I just always want them to feel worthy of that from others because, like, I hope that our kids feel like I love you, period. I feel like at this point, if they don't, I don't know what I'll do. You know, Like, I just, I've, I've been, I'll try again with my grandkids. But how do we make other people in our lives know that? Like, how do I make sure you know that? Even though also there's like a long list of reasons why, right? Like, I can give you a long list of reasons why I think you're so spectacular, but I also don't need all of those things to feel this feeling. And I think about that a lot. And I think about that especially in the context of these high achieving people and places. Now I'm just rambling and I'll just cut it out, but I just think about it.

[Jennifer Wallace]

No, I think about it too. And I think we live in a culture that says certain people matter more. The people with the bigger house, with more money, with more followers, with more whatever, more accolades matter more. And I think that is the role of friendship, is to say, no, I love you. You matter, period.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

You matter, period.

[Jennifer Wallace]

I do want to say, and I think we did say this, but if you are listening and you are feeling like you don't matter, which happens to everyone. I mean, this is not a unique experience. Life transitions can shake our sense of mattering. Grief, divorce, losing a friend, changing jobs, relocating, all of these things. We tend to personalize them and think there must be something wrong with us, that we cannot cope. But what I'm here to tell you is these are normal human experiences. We all go through them and it is that your sense of mattering has taken a hit and now that you know this, you can do something about it. Think about this said framework. Really, I would love to leave just with two quick ideas. You are feeling like you do not matter. Text someone, your mother, your sister, your friend if it weren't for you and tell them or if you don't have someone like that in your life right now that you feel like, you can say that to leave your house, go into the drugstore, go to the supermarket and thank the people who greet you with a smile and with warmth. And say something like, you know, the world is really crazy these days, but you have such a warmth. I just want you to know that you have such a positive impact on the world, you might not even know it. So the fastest way to feel like you matter is to tell someone else why they do.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I mean, Jenny Wallace, Jennifer Wallace. Should I call you Jennifer for here?

[Jennifer Wallace]

Jenny?

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I love that. I love that exercise and I just like, I think like these are muscles that we can grow.

[Jennifer Wallace]

Well, you matter to me, Al. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.