← Raising Good Humans
Raising Good Humans
Terrifying Times, Terrific Kids: What Actually Helps with New York Times Bestselling Author Melinda Wenner Moyer
00:44:19
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- [00:01]
A
The following podcast is a Dear Media production. You know, we think of our job as to keep our kids happy, but that's not what mental health is, you know, and mental health is not about feeling good all the time. It's. It's about like both feeling the feelings that are appropriate to whatever situation you're in and like having the coping skills, developing the coping skills to manage those feelings. And we have to give them the opportunity to develop those coping skills throughout through having tough moments.
- [00:32]
B
Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Liza Pressman and today's episode is with Melinda Wenner Moyer, who is the author of Raising Kids who Aren't Assholes. And her new book, hello Cruel Science Based Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in Terrifying Times is just coming out. So we had a great conversation touching on quite a few themes from her book. The first one is actually touching on technology and social media and kind of the nuances of the research. The second topic we talked about is self compassion and younger kids and growing that throughout the lifespan and what a, what an important practice that is to cultivate. We also talked about surprising research on substance use, or rather research that surprises many parents on substance use. And lastly we talked about more of that work we have to do distinguishing between what is uncomfortable for our kids and what is uncomfortable but necessary for our kids in order to thrive and grow heartily. Have a listen and if you enjoy this episode, don't hesitate. In fact, run, don't walk, take to write a little review and give it a five star rating so I can get it out there into the world.
- [01:58]
A
I think a big theme of what makes parenting really hard right now and maybe sometimes steers us in the wrong direction. It's just we have so much fear, so much fear. And when we are so afraid and so anxious as parents, we often make decisions that we think are in the best interest of our kids that may not actually be in the best interest of our kids. And so I definitely see this with, you know, resilience and the issues there. We're so afraid of our kids, like being uncomfortable, being unprepared, being unhappy that we make decisions to sort of like curate and, and make sure they're always successful and always happy. And that works against them resilience wise. It also works against them in terms of developing the coping skills they need to preserve their mental health. And then fear is, I mean, obviously like there's been a lot of recently, like a lot of very scary talk about social media and technology. And so I think a lot of parents feel a ton of fear and a ton of guilt for, like, letting kids use these tools. And we're finding that that fear and that guilt is actually potentially like, more harmful to the parent child relationship than the tech itself. Like, and by sort of keeping, I don't know, keeping our fear in check there, we can make more thoughtful and balanced decisions that actually end up, you know, really helping our kids a lot more with technology. So, yeah, I see fear is like a theme throughout my book. Like, there's so much fear and it's not super helpful. And we. And the good news is that, like, we don't have to maybe be quite as afraid as we are.
- [03:30]
B
You know, when you do research, when you're really digging into something is part of that, you know, how for some people more information is relieving, and then for other people's personality, it's too much.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah.
- [03:44]
B
Are you the kind of person who's like, I want to consume the information, get to the bottom of it, and then I actually feel better, or is this a job? You know what I mean?
- [03:53]
A
Right. No, I absolutely. Like, the reason I do what I do is in large part because it's what makes me. It's like a coping skill for me. Leaning into, like digging into the nitty gritty of what does the research actually say. So what I find is. And what I found for this book was like, you know, I. I did have this concern that I was going to dig into the research on. I mean, each. Each chapter of my book, there are 10 chapters. Each chapter covers a totally different skill. And I was like, what if I just find so much information and it's like conflicting or it's so nuanced that like, I'm. I'm having to tell people, like, you have to do this exact thing in order to make this, you know, to help this skill develop. Like, I was worried it could end up being totally overwhelming and really detail oriented and too much. But what I actually found and what I often find when I really dig deep into the research is that there are themes that start to come up in from the research that apply to a lot of different areas. And so, like, a particular approach that might be like actually a really broad stroke approach, like just listening to your kids. Like, that's something that came up so often in my different chapters. Like the. The power of like, being curious, really listening, really respecting what your kids have to say. That is helpful for so many reasons. And it's not like a really, like a specific, you know, hard to do thing it's like, oh, we can all wrap around, wrap our heads around the idea of like, truly listening to our kids. So what I find when I dig into the research often and what I found here was like, actually there are some broad stroke things that are common across a lot of skill development, like, meaning the things we do, you know, one thing that we might do will help develop a number of key skills in our kids and they're not all that hard and not all that hard to understand and master. So that was a huge, huge relief. Yeah.
- [05:43]
B
And what do you think are the top skills that we need to help our kids cultivate in this new era? I mean, is it a new era? I do feel like a lot of this is. Well, I'm going to let you speak because I think you have some things to say about it.
- [06:00]
A
Yeah, it's a really good question. Like, are things as scary as we think they are? Are things as bad as we've been told or we think they are? And couple things to keep in mind. I mean, one thing like, with, with the mental health statistics that I alluded to already, like, you know, we're seeing these rising rates of anxiety, depression, suicide attempts, or at least like suicide ideation, sleep deprivation, like stuff that looks really, really scary on paper. But when you talk to researchers who study it, you know, they say, well, we think some of this is just reflecting like, better awareness of mental health issues, better, you know, more diagnoses, like parents are getting, getting their kids help more than they used to. And so it may not actually be that and it probably isn't that the right, the whole rise we're seeing in like, anxiety rates, depression, etc, actually reflects like, more and more kids being anxious and depressed. It just means we are, we are recognizing and diagnosing and treating more anxiety and depression than we did. A lot of it used to go sort of hidden and untreated. And so that's a really good thing. So that's one thing. And I also think that even if things maybe you know, aren't as, aren't that much harder for us or aren't that scary compared to like, parents from generations past, because I, you know, you can say, well, probably parenting is easier now than in a lot of, you know, past centuries and decades when there was a, you know, wars, etc. Going on, I. It is though true that anxiety, parental anxiety is like really, really high right now and more so than it has been in the past. So even if the world isn't actually much worse and scary and it feels, it feels like it is. And that. And we know that that anxiety among parents is counterproductive, and it makes parenting so much harder. And so whether or not it's like reflecting, you know, the world is actually a worse place than it was, I think we still need to address and talk about it because parental anxiety is real and it is really, really high right now.
- [07:55]
B
And really, I want everybody to have as much information as possible because we are educated and have capacity for this. But. But how it's getting delivered. And which is why I think it's wonderful what you do when it gets delivered in a way that isn't trying to sell a spin. It's a lot easier to digest than if there's, like, a very big takeaway that is specifically geared toward making an argument, if that makes sense.
- [08:23]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. And sometimes I think people want the, like, simple, you know, yes, we are doomed. Like, and you have to do X sort of answer.
- [08:32]
B
Because it's an answer.
- [08:34]
A
Because it's an answer, and people want that. And I get that. And so, you know, I. But I. I'm like, let's really look at the nuances and let's see if this is really the case and do we need to be this, you know, freaked out and stuff. And so sometimes I think it can be harder because it isn't always like, a very straightforward, simple message that comes from the research. But I personally find that more reassuring and more helpful and more accurate and realistic, you know.
- [08:58]
B
And now for a quick break. We have a really big problem right now in getting news content that's reliable and valid. And I think Ground News has approached this problem so beautifully because essentially they understand that there's burnout, there's just volumes of sensationalized, biased news stories. There is a benefit to focusing on negativity, which totally adds to the polarization and to the echo chamber. And Ground News is this very cool website and app that lets you see how any news story is being covered around the world and across the political spectrum so that you can get different perspectives in one place and you can think critically about how these different perspectives might be coming across and for what reason and for how they benefit you and how they benefit the news source. And it really can help young people with their critical thinking skills. And it really is, I think, a great antidote to what people can be incredibly problematic content. So go to groundnews.com humans to get 40% off the ground News Vantage plan, which is the plan that I use to stay informed. I think Ground News is doing such Important work and I hope you'll check them out. It's so helpful for our young people. That's groundnews.com humans I want to tell you about Bobby because I love what they're doing. So I want to start by saying that we cannot tell mothers how to feed their babies. We can just hope that we support mothers to feed their babies. And so if you choose formula, there should be a formula that feels really good to you and that's what Bobby's formulas are there for. Bobby's formulas are USDA organic clean label certified modeled after breast milk. They're easy on tiny tummies. And I'm so tired of people pitting mothers against each other over how they're feeding their kids. Bobby is so non judgmental. You feel like you can proudly give this to your babies. And it's mom founded. There's a mom led teen that set a new standard for infant formula and I would have a hundred percent used Bobby with so much trust. So I'm psyched to support them. Whether you're breastfeeding or formula feeding or you're breastfeeding and formula feeding in a mixture, whatever choice you make, I support you because that is what we need to do for moms. You focus on taking care of you and taking care of your baby and not on all of the comments and the judgment about how you're doing it. Bobby is offering an additional 10% off your purchase with the codes humans. Visit www.hibobby.com to find the Bobby formula that fits your journey. That's H I B O b b I e.com I think I want to get pretty granular about your experience both parenting as the, the conversation about social media and technology has gotten pretty big. You're parenting the exact age where it's like very important and big feeling because you have this range of preteen and teenager. How have you translated this research into a way that is something you can deal with in your practical day to day? And I do not judge whatever it is that you're doing, I should say because I think with intention and certain parameters around any of this, we can make all of our decisions about parenting work pretty well for us.
- [12:51]
A
Yeah, right. And there really is no one size fits all answer to it. I mean it depends on so many things. I mean I, I am a big proponent of having like rules and structures in place but being very communicative and transparent about it with my kids. So what I one thing that I found from the research that I thought was like a pretty Important message that I highlight in the book is that especially with kids over about the age of eight, you know, rules and restriction and monitoring can be helpful, but they're not as helpful if they are not also accompanied by a lot of open communication between parents and kids about like, for instance, you know, kids will be more willing to listen and accommodate, you know, our rules, our restrictions, if they understand why we have them, understand our concerns and if they feel like they have a little bit of agency. When kids get to, you know, tween and teen, as you well know, like they, they need agency, they need to feel some sense of, you know, independence and, and control. And if you're just setting these rules and you're sort of barking out orders like you can't, you know, you can't use any social media, you can't use your phone after 6pm and I don't want to talk about it. That's just the way it is. Kids will start to push back and they might, I mean they might start to sneak anyway, but like they're, they don't like being told what to do and not feeling heard. So what I try to do with my kids is we do have, we do have time limits on some, you know, some of their apps. We do have rules where like they have to plug in their phone at night outside their rooms and they, they don't, they can't, you know, use them after 8pm My daughter doesn't have a phone. My son does have a phone. He's 14, she's 10. But we have a lot of conversations about like why, why I have concerns and what the research says they're so sick of. Like I'm always bringing up research totally. And, and also like I listen to them, you know, and so when they say, well, if I can't use, if I don't use any TikTok, I'm left out of conversations with my friends and, and they're, you know, they're all talking about something and I don't know what they're talking about and I feel left out. And that's a real concern too. And this is something Lisa d' Amore talks about, which is like, you have to balance the, the risks of letting kids have access to technology with this potential social risks of not letting them have any access. And so you want, I think her rule is like, give kids access to as much technology as they need to maintain their, their in person social relationships. And I love that. And that's why we got my son a phone when he was 13 because he was the last in his friend group to have a phone. And it was getting to the point where he was getting left out of plans and getting left out of conversations. And I was like, okay, this is the time then, when. When it makes sense to get you this. So, yeah, it's a lot of, like, conversations, a lot of listening, a lot of sometimes negotiating so that the kids feel like they do have some control, they are being listened to, they are being respected. And I think then in that context, the rules work a lot better.
- [15:51]
B
So what are a few good practices to grow this little muscle?
- [15:57]
A
Yeah. So the first thing that research, there's basically three components of self compassion that you can practice and that you can cultivate in your kids. The first one is really. It's like a. It's basically mindfulness. But sometimes that term is, like, overwhelming. And, like, what does that mean? It's basically like, when you're having a hard time about something, it's noticing your feelings in that moment and kind of taking yourself out of the situation and saying, like, I'm having a really rough time right now, or I'm. I'm feeling really bad about something right now. And just like, that act of naming and recognizing that you're having that feeling takes you away from, like, the sort of rumination you might be in and the obsessive thoughts about it and the, you know, the sort of cycle of beating yourself up. So it's really as simple as that. Like, just saying, like, I'm having. I'm clearly having a hard time right now, so that's not that hard. Right. The second part is recognizing the shared human experience of, you know, we all go through tough moments, we all have, when we all make mistakes, we all screw up, we all do things that we wish we hadn't done. And so this is. And it has to be done kind of carefully with kids because I think, you know, if you say something like, well, you know, everybody forgets their homework. This isn't a big deal. Like, that comes off as dismissive, right? And as saying, like, you shouldn't be feeling the way you're feeling at all. Like, why are you. So why are you beating yourself up? So we don't want it to come off as, like, dismissive of their feelings. It's more like, wow, yeah, like, this sucks. And. And I think anybody in your situation would feel the same way. They would be upset, too. Or, you know, it can help, too, to say, like, you know what? I have had this exact feeling before, and I know how hard it is and you know, a lot of people struggle with this and you're not alone, like that kind of thing. I recently had a conversation with my 10 year old about social anxiety in group situations because she was really, she had, she had a tough day. And I was like, oh, I know that feeling so well. And like we really kind of had a bonding moment over the shared feelings we had of, you know, social anxiety. And then the third part of self compassion is probably the part that like everybody thinks of when they think of self compassion, which is just treating yourself kindly. Like treating yourself like you would treat a friend if your friend had done nothing that you'd done or was feeling the way you're feeling. So you know, with kids it can be like, well, you know, you're so you're really feeling bad about this and beating yourself up about this. Like, what would you say if your friend had done this? Like, would you be telling your friend, like, you're the worst person in the world because you messed up your homework or would you be saying something else? Like, what would you say to them? And so it's kind of helping them. It's another form of distancing really, where you're like, okay, like maybe it's helping them recognize, like maybe I'm not treating myself with the same compassion I would treat a friend. Maybe I should treat myself with more compassion. And so yeah, those are the three parts and they're not super hard. But we can do it, do it ourselves and help our kids go through these three steps too.
- [18:56]
B
And sometimes it's like, we wouldn't normally do that for ourselves, but we're more motivated to do it now because if we think it will help our kids, like that is the sad truth is that we're more motivated to use a more gentle voice with ourselves or be a little bit more tender with ourselves. If we imagine that that will somehow help our kids, which of course it will. But I think a lot of people don't take the time to just do things that will help a lot of people. By people, I mean mothers mostly. It's easy. It's an easier like side door into our own self compassion. If we're like, oh wait, that's the voice that my kids are going to hear in their head. I gotta, I gotta make that a more tender voice. But that distancing is such a good habit. And we can do that out loud about ourselves for, you know, in front of our kids if they have trouble understanding it. How would my best friend talk to me about this? How would I talk to my best friend about it. And now for a quick break, I wanted to tell you about Outschool. It's an online learning platform that empowers kids ages 3 to 18 to learn on their own terms with the widest variety of teachers, topics and classes. To suit any interest, Outschool offers interactive small group classes that are fun and social. There are video classes that can be taken anytime. There are live classes. There's one on one tutoring. There are clubs that connect learners on favorite subjects. I used Outschool during COVID It was one of the first things that we did to try to figure out how to interact with other people and get some learning going and give the kids something to do because I was working at home. So I'm a big fan of Outschool and I hope you find it helpful. So if you want to try Outschool you can go now and get up to $20 off your child's first class or tutoring session for a limited time. This exclusive discount is only available when you go to Outschool.com humans and use the code humans at checkout. That's Outschool.com humans and use THE CODE HUMANS for up to $20 off your child's first class or tutoring session on Outschool School. Outschool Take charge of their future Iris and Romeo is a clean, minimalist beauty brand creating modern essentials that let you live more with less thoughtfully crafted with clinical level skincare, natural tints and clean formulas that are powered by safe synthetics and plant based actives. Every product supports your skin's wellness while honoring your health, mind and the planet. Now this is my favorite product that they do. Iris and Romeo's Weekend Skin Lip SPF 30 is the first of its kind lip balm oil hybrid with mineral SPF 30 and moisturizing color to protect the delicate layers of your lips. I am in a constant state of wanting to hydrate my lips but I'm also in California and in a constant state of wanting lip protection. So I love this product and I highly recommend it since wherever you are it's about to be summer. So Visit Iris and Romeo.com and use the code humans at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. That's I R I S and R o m e o.com and use the code humans for 20% off your first order. This is got so many good products but you want to get that SPF 30 lip tint because it's like putting moisturizing oil. It's Got pretty, very lovely shades that enhance your natural lip color. The whole thing is my jam. So this is the old self compassion practice. What would your wise friends say? What would your kind of that friend who's not really a friend say? And you know, it's a distancing thing, same thing. And what are you saying? And you realize that you have, you are all of those people, you are your wise friend. You are also your worst enemy sometimes or your frenemy and that those things are both inside of you. And sometimes you just have to distance yourself to be able to imagine this other. So like I remember writing a note to myself as my wise friend and said sometimes you've just pick concretely the person who in your life, you know, just has your back. It could be somebody who's no longer with us. It can be somebody who is right there with you all the time. But it's like a person who you know, always is thinking about not just how to make you happy because that might not be the best path, but like what is actually best for you. And so I chose my mom's mom, my grandmother who was, who died many years ago. But I realized like that is the voice in my head. I have that voice, I have access to it. And if our kids are lucky enough to find that out when they're young, which is, I think such a beautiful way to start your book is to engage in this practice of self compassion at such a young age. Like the amount of just time they could save on just berating themselves. That doesn't make the outcome better. It's not like you make a mistake and you berate yourself and feel go in a shame spiral. That does not change anything. So it's not even active.
- [24:50]
A
Yeah, no. And, and the research really suggests that like self compassionate people, like it helps us accept our imperfection and make us more willing to like work on ourselves and grow and do better. It's you know, because people I think sometimes think of it as like, well it's going to make you self indulgent and like yes, you know, not, not want to have, do anything to better yourself or like to take responsibility for things. You're just going to like sit on the couch and eat chocolate and. But that's by the way a very fine pastime and I love doing that. But like that's not what it does. It actually kind of does the opposite. It helps us stay positive and be willing to like accept our imperfections and, and work on ourselves and grow.
- [25:31]
B
I actually think your example with you know, Forgetting the homework is a, is good because it's not like you're like, yay, you forgot your homework. And that happens and don't worry about it, you're. It's more like now you know that you don't like how that feels, you can be gentle with yourself and also think about like if you don't like how that feels, what are some ways to change your morning so that you can remember your homework or whatever. So I think it's so true that self compassion actually leads to far less sitting on the couch, eating chocolate, feeling sorry for yourself again. Also love that pastime. No disrespect to it, right?
- [26:08]
A
Yeah, it's important.
- [26:09]
B
But you can still be, you can be a highly motivated person and arguably more like put more, more time into how you really want to grow versus sitting there kind of tied up in taking time to for self flagellation, which just doesn't help anyone. But you're right, there is kind of a myth that if you're too self compassionate that it might mean that you're okay with what mistake you just made and therefore you can do it all the time.
- [26:42]
A
Right? Yeah, that's not what it does.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah, I want to talk about. I don't know why this conversation really pulls at a thread for people, but alcohol and substance use and misuse has been, I've noticed whenever I've brought it up on the podcast, it brings up bigger feelings for people. Like the research on this. I, I think, I guess that's its own thing to unpack. But can you. And I know culturally we're like actually using fewer subs, teenagers are using fewer substances, so that's one thing. But I just wanted to kind of get into that for those people thinking about your older kids or just thinking about setting the stage for, for healthy choices later.
- [27:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. It's a very fraught, like a fraught topic. And there's a lot of misconceptions I think too, about what are some of, you know, what are the best practices, like what actually reduces risk. So I mean, one thing, like some of the broad stroke tips that I talk about based on the research, it's like really important to have frequent direct conversations with kids from a young age about substances, about alcohol, about, I mean now pills like fentanyl is legit terrifying. And so you really want to be talking to kids about like do not take pills that somebody offers you, you know, unless ever, ever, ever. Yeah, ever, ever. Like unless you got it with your parents from the doctor, you know, from the pharmacy directly. Like never, ever, ever take a pill.
- [28:17]
B
No pill, no powder, no patterns. That's what my daughter and her friends say.
- [28:22]
A
I love that. That's fantastic. Okay, I might steal that. Thank you.
- [28:28]
B
When it, whenever I hear a teenager say something to another teenager, I'm like, oh my God. They come up with the most clever phrases to remember. No pills, no powder, no patterns.
- [28:39]
A
That's it. So wait, what does the patterns mean there?
- [28:42]
B
Patterns is like if you are, look, ideally nobody's drinking underage, nobody's smoking pot, nobody's doing anything. However, if you are, is it a pattern? Is it something you're doing regularly or is it something that's once in a while and that should go on for our lifespan? So that's what they say to each other. Like if they're seeing that somebody's doing something more often than not doing it, like it becomes a pattern. They get much more concerned about their friends than if something's a once in a while.
- [29:17]
A
Right.
- [29:17]
B
Except for obviously pills and powders. That was their. That's essentially like how they rein each other in, I think.
- [29:24]
A
Yeah, no, that's, that's a, that's a great saying. So when it comes to talking to kids about alcohol and drugs too, one of the things I kept hearing from experts is that it can be really helpful to, to emphasize the sort of like near, you know, the potentially short term consequences of using. So you know, we, a lot of the drug campaigns, like anti drug slogans that I feel like I grew up with were sort of like, if you do this, like, you know, if you smoke, you're going to get lung cancer when you're old. And like, as a kid you're like, well, I don't really, I don't care what happens when I'm old. Right. Like, they don't feel so far away. And you're like, by then there'll be a, sure, it'll be fine. So it's like, well, okay, well if you got caught drinking tomorrow, like, what would that do? Like, what would your soccer coaches do? Would you still be able to play soccer? Like, or, you know, what, how would that affect like your. What, what happens at school? Or what if it started affecting your grade? It's like you want to focus on emphasizing this potential short term consequences that, that are meaningful to them and their lives right then. And also what's really helpful is giving like refusal strategies. So like, if you encounter alcohol, what could you say? If you, you know, if you want to say no, which we expect that you will Say no. Like we hope you say no. Yep. You want to make clear what your expectations are. Then like, how, how might you do this? What could you blame it on? You know, could you say, well, I don't want to get kicked off the soccer team? Or could you say, like, my mom would absolutely kill me because she just wrote a book about how I'm not alone, you know, how, how I. I don't want to. We don't want kids to drink. So, you know, really give them these strategies and go over it with them like regularly. It's not just like a one time conversation, you know, think about when you can bring it up. I just brought it up with my son. He went on like a three night or two night overnight with school at a camp in the Catskills. And you know, he's in eighth grade. I don't think anybody's going to sneak alcohol in, but I was like, this is a good opportunity to just bring it up and say, you know, do you think it's possible somebody's going to sneak in something like, like some beer or something? And if so, like, what would you do? And like, we had that conversation. He was like, no, mom, that, like, I'm in eighth grade. That's ridiculous. But who, but who knows, right? So it's really about like having these conversations regularly as well.
- [31:34]
B
And then they know that also you can have the conversations and they can come to you.
- [31:37]
A
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And I think another thing is you can set expectations and say, you know, my expectation is that you won't drink till you're 21 or whatever it is. That's what experts recommended. But you can also at the same time say, but if you're in a situation in which you've been drinking, I want you to know you can always come to me and like to, to help you and to get you home. Like, you can both set the expectation and also say, like, if you make a mistake, everybody does make mistakes. If you make a mistake or something happens and you're in a situation in which you've used a substance and you need help, like, you can always call me. So I think people get confused and they think like, well, if you set the expectation, then you, you can't even talk about like what happens if something goes differently. Right. But you can, you can.
- [32:20]
B
I'm glad you said that because I do think that a lot of the pushback that I hear sometimes in reaction to sort of setting that expectation is, well, I want my, I don't want my kids to lie to me and I want them to come to me. And the truth is that you can have a close, real relationship with your kids, have that expectation and also acknowledge you might make a mistake. And I want to be the person that you call and you're totally safe to make that phone call. I don't think it's like a binary either, or either you're drinking or you're lying. Like, I think there's, there's a space between that maybe is the thing that scares parents of like, wait, if I have that expectation, am I setting that up for lying? Because I remember when I was a kid, I lied to my parents. And I always think about like, well, did your parents offer both that expectation and that connection?
- [33:19]
A
Right, right. Yeah. Because I think it does feel hard for parents to do both. But it, it, but it's absolutely doable. You know these nuances. Like kids can get the nuance at that, especially, you know, teenagers.
- [33:30]
B
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- [35:07]
A
The one other thing I guess I want to say from this chapter is that there is this idea that if you let, if you introduce kids to alcohol a little bit when they're younger, you know, when they're teens, and you let them have a glass of wine every so often and. And, you know, you kind of ease them in. It's like this European idea of, like, well, kids in Italy and France, like, they start drinking younger and they don't have problems with alcohol, so we should do that too and make it. Let. Make it less of a forbidden fruit. Like, that's not supported by the research at all. We know that kids in Europe actually have, you know, really problematic relationships with alcohol. It's really bad. And so what we find is, what the research suggests is that, like, the younger a kid has their first sip of alcohol, the more likely they are to develop problems. So the longer you can put it off by saying, you know, by talking about your expectations, the longer you can put it off, the better, basically.
- [36:03]
B
Yeah. That also gets a lot of pushback, I think, because people say, well, look at Europe. And I think we have romantic ideas about Europe, and Europe is a beautiful, wonderful place, and there are listeners who are in Europe. But I think we also know that just because a place is beautiful and has beautiful wine does not mean that the relationship with substances, particularly with alcohol, is healthier. And in fact, the research does not corroborate that idea. I just think it's nice to know because sometimes we're winging a lot of these things to the best of our ability. And it would totally make sense if you grew up and you were like, well, I wasn't allowed to do anything and I snuck out or. And so I'm going to allow everything, so then my kids won't sneak out. I think there are, like, a few things that we do have, research that kind of shatters our belief system enough that we might be able to shift it. And that, I think, is one of the big ones that we're. There is actually research that goes against what might feel like, you know, best practices or whatever.
- [37:15]
A
Yeah. And the research really is clear. And every expert I talked to was like, please make it clear that this is, you know, letting your kids drink at home is the. One of the worst things you can do. So, like, I mean, not to say that if you've ever let your kids drink at home that they're doomed. But, like, it, you know, but it. It is like, the research is very clear that the longer you can kind of keep your kids from drinking regularly, the better.
- [37:39]
B
Okay, so the last thing that I want to talk about is how we can think about our kids experiencing discomfort due to what we perceive as something we've. We're. We could do Something about whether that's showing up for every single moment at a hundred percent, or it's millions of care packages to alleviate the struggling during sleepaway camp, or, you know, I'm trying to think of all the different things that happen right now, this time of year. But can. Can you talk about sort of concrete ways that we can rethink about how just because we can do something about a positive stressor doesn't mean it's positive for us to do something about it?
- [38:28]
A
Yeah, I think this is such a struggle for parents, including me, by the way. You know, seeing our kids uncomfortable, frustrated, you know, just feeling icky, like, we don't like that. We want. We want them to be happy all the time. I feel like, you know, I. I do think sometimes as a parent, I'm like, I just wish my kids could be happy all the time. But what I know from the research is that, you know, resilience and coping skills and all these skills that are so important for mental health throughout people's lives, those develop in the context of discomfort. Like, kids have to experience hard things and frustration and discomfort in order to figure out how to cope with those kinds of feelings, which are feelings they're going to encounter their whole lives. You know, we are all, like, as adults, we're constantly disappointed and frustrated and whatnot. And if we as parents try to protect our kids from those experiences when they're young and we try to make everything okay and easy for them, then we're just really robbing them of the opportunity to develop these key life skills. So I think of it as, I mean, my kids. And it's so hard to. Especially if some of the discomfort comes from things that you yourself, like choices you're making as a parent and the guilt you might feel. So, for instance, I sing in a choir, and I'm gone every Tuesday night during choir season. And my daughter does not like it. She is like, mom, I'm gonna miss you. I'm so sad that you're gone. And so, like, her discomfort with my being gone and her sadness also makes me feel like I'm a bad mom for making this choice for myself. And I have to remind myself, well, first of all, it's really good for her to see that a mother, especially, is, you know, listening to her own needs and doing things for herself, like this modeling. That's so important. And I want her as a. If she becomes a mom or just as a woman in this world, to know that she can prioritize herself, you know, And I want my Son to see that, you know, women should prioritize themselves, too. So that is important. But also, like, I want her to feel this sadness and discomfort at me being gone and realize that she can get through it and that, you know, she can develop different kinds of coping skills that will help her get through those moments. So I think, you know, we think of our job as to keep our kids happy, but that's not what mental health is, you know, and mental health is not about feeling good all the time. It's. It's about, like, both feeling the feelings that are appropriate to whatever situation you're in and, like, having the coping skills, developing the coping skills to manage those feelings. And we have to give them the opportunity to develop those coping skills through having tough moments.
- [41:07]
B
Yeah. You wrote a really good article in Substack that I thought was so spot on. Basically, if you were a dad, this would not be called into question. That possible.
- [41:17]
A
Yeah. Yes. So, yes, in my subset, I thought.
- [41:21]
B
It was a really good point.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah. So my concerts were last weekend. My spring concerts for my choir were last weekend. And so they. They required me to be out of the house, like, doing, you know, doing rehearsal and concert stuff for a lot of the weekend. And I ran into some mom friends of mine over the weekend because I had been posting on Instagram about it, too, and they were like, you know, I'm just like, I'm so impressed that you do this, and I just want to tell you, like, it's. It's really, really cool that you do this for yourself. And I walked away from that thinking, you know, I wonder if men get commended and cheered on for doing things for themselves over the weekend. Like, I don't think so. I really. I don't think so. And they were like, so. And I. I wrote about how the fact that there is this surprise and this, like, wow, like, I can't believe you're doing this for yourself sort of reaction.
- [42:14]
B
Right, Right.
- [42:15]
A
It just shows that this is not the norm. This is, like, an exception. You know, I'm an exception rather than the norm. And I was like, maybe we should be. Well, definitely, we should be normalizing mom hobbies that take you out of the house and, like, you know, normalizing, prioritizing yourself from time to time. Because it shouldn't be this thing that's, like, so surprising to everybody to see. Like, that's not a good sign. It should be something that's, like, totally mundane. Like, oh, yeah, like, you have. You have choir. That's. Yeah, yeah. And I am going off to pottery later. Like, let's make this normal. Let's not make it weird.
- [42:49]
B
Let's make it normal. Let's not make it weird. Here, Here. Okay. So everybody can find you by going to your substack, going to your Instagram, and you have a beautiful new book out that's coming out, and everybody can grab it and have some more ideas about, like, skills we can build in the world that we're living in today and skills for our kids and skills for us. Because it's kind of the same, right?
- [43:18]
A
Yeah, I know. It's funny. It is like a parenting book. But I've had people read it who are like, actually, this is, like a. Also a book for parents that, like, could help them, I don't know, help them, like, develop and grow themselves, too. And I was like, I'd never thought about that. But it's such a good point because, yeah, like, there are a lot of skills that I talk about that I feel like we could all stand to sort of think more about and grow. And hopefully it's helpful in that regard, too.
- [43:45]
B
And what bigger motivator than knowing that it's, like, an opportunity for you to grow the skill and an opportunity for our kids?
- [44:10]
A
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