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Foreign. Welcome to Raising good humans. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman, and today it's just us. I want to talk about defiant kids and I say that in quotes, though you can't see me. And handling those situations where you feel like you just need a little bit more beyond the typical kind, compassionate way with limits response. I also have a free newsletter, drlisapressman. Substack. Com. Just sign up for it. You get one to two articles a week. There's no paywall. And I usually give you a little summary of actually the episode and some key points and maybe a little article on something that came out in the world that I wanted to address. There is a paid membership, but that's 4.99amonth to do a live zoom parent group where people just come and ask questions and it's very easy. And, you know, that's more for if you just want, I don't know, live interaction and community. If you enjoy a solo episode, definitely write a review. Okay. So the reason I wanted to do this particular episode is because I did a little segment on the Today show with Hoda and Jenna. And Hoda had a very real scenario of her child not wanting to get in the bath and just being very stubborn about it. And my feedback, which I will tell you here, they posted on social media and so I could see the comments. And I noticed that basically what I said was when you're getting pushback, when you know there isn't an underlying issue. So, for example, in this case, Hoda's feedback from other people and from school is that her child is awesome and not like causing problems or making mayhem in the classroom or anything that would raise a flag where you'd say, wait, is there something underlying that's going on? There's both home and school. There's some really defiant pushback. Maybe we need to check this out. No, that's not the case. The case is that the home is the safe harbor. It's where we can act out a little bit more. Especially because we know as we move into preschool and grade school that people like well behaved kids and we want to please our teachers. And it's totally natural. And there's nothing wrong if you have a compliant kid at school who acts out at home. Obviously, if the school was scary, there would be another issue and that would be something personal and you would address that with a healthcare provider. But assuming that you're sending your child to a school that you feel good about, they're probably doing well in school because they have understood the sort of more. The better feeling of acting out with the people that, you know, no matter what, love you unconditionally. And those are usually the people in your household, particularly your primary caregiver. And so you're gonna feel like, okay, this is where I've been behaving all day. I've not been the center of attention all day, and now I'm home, I'm safe. I'm gonna let it all hang out. And we do this as adults, too. That's why, unfortunately, sometimes our worst behavior is with the people that we love the most, and we have to really work hard to address that. But little children are not working on that. They're just feeling safe and letting it all hang out. My point was, figure out what your limits are. Your limit is that you have a bedtime that matters to you, because sleep is important. You know that you have a routine that you want to get through. You also don't want to fight every single time. So I said, if you're getting pushback on bath time, then just see what happens if you don't let it delay bedtime, and you just end the fight and say, okay, we're just going to get in our pajamas, brush our teeth to the rest of our routine to the extent that we have time. But bedtime is bedtime. And that maybe lifting the fight and not meeting your child who's ready for battle and testing with battling, but instead saying, okay, you have a choice. You can take a bath. And then we, you know, we're running a little bit late for bedtime, so we won't have all the things, but we're still going to bed on time. Or you can skip bath, but we're still going to bed on time. So we're not fighting over whether or not to take a bath, that then you leave room. And most of the time after that happens for a few days, when it stops being so critical to fight and push back, your child's gonna move on from trying to fight the bath. Now, of course, with younger kids, it can also be, you know, her kids were a little bit. But with a toddler preschooler, you might consider making the bath a little bit more fun so you can address whether or not there's a specific issue with bath. But in this particular case, it was just pushback and delaying. And what I noticed was a lot of people did not like that I said that you get kids worse behavior at home because you're a safe harbor. And they were. I mean, more people understood and I think felt good about it. But there were a lot of comments that were like, you have to show kids who's boss, they can't win, and on and on. And this is permissive. Now, let me be clear. Permissive would be you don't have to take a bath, you don't have to go to bed when you want. I don't have any limits for you. If you don't like this, I'm here to make you like it. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is bedtime, the limit is still happening. So all the delay tactics and fighting and battling are not happening. And if that means that in the process, for a few days, I'm losing out on bath time, we'll. We'll maybe reevaluate when we do bath time. It may be that it's before dinner, before there's fighting. It may be that it's right after school because we can't seem to get enough done before bed. It just, you know, it doesn't seem to work. But for those few days, it's not. You're not letting a kid win because you're saying, fine, we're not taking bath, we'll just go to bed. You're just saying, I'm, I have my priorities. This is what's important. It's important that you get sleep. It's important that we get to bed. And I'm not going to let that get derailed by having a huge meltdown and fight. It's just not necessary. So I just want to distinguish between permissiveness and having loving limits, where you just say, I'm not battling about this. And here's where I draw the line. Sleep matters. We're going to get to sleep on time. And now for a quick break so I can tell you about Great Wolf Lodge. Are you trying to think of a fun weekend with the family? Do you want to find a place that has everything under one roof and a room that has a little room where everybody can hang out in, and then a bunk room for the kids and a room for you, because that's what Great Wolf Lodge has so you can have a great time. An unforgettable memory with the kids. Go down gazillions of water slides. They have very cool things like the Magi Quest, a live action game kids can play throughout the lodge. To the Northern Lights Arcade. They have so much fun. Dance parties at night, tons of restaurants. Everything is easy. You just need to pack and get in the car. Learn more@greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. So along those lines, I wanted to give you a little, like a few more scenarios where I hear about pushback and then parents kind of feel a little stuck. I also want to say that I'm going to assume, because I talk about this a lot, that you have a close, connected relationship when things are going well, and that the defiance comes separately. I'm not saying that's true for all kids who are defiant, but I am saying that there are a lot of parents out there who are like, I have a close relationship. They love me so much. I love them so much, they feel loved. This isn't about the relationship. It's truly their temperament and something that's going on that isn't about validating their feelings. Because I know, you know, validating feelings is really important. Including a kid who doesn't want to take a bath saying, like, I know you really don't want to do this right now. It's amazing how just naming that you know what's going on for your kid and that it's valid can be really helpful. But there are kids for whom validating feelings in the heat of the moment just makes them more angry. And so you have to know your kid and you don't want to throw that as a script down their throats because it might actually be a problem. But there are daily have to's, not want to's that need to happen. And that can really get kids upset because they do not want to accept those rules. But we need to learn to accept those rules because we have to be able to manage that the world is gonna ask of us some things that we don't wanna do. So in the case of the bath, my feeling was the pushback was bath. The pushback was pushing bedtime. It was getting into fights that the first thing that you have to do that you don't wanna do. In that case, the most important thing is bedtime. So bath gets a backseat. And over time you work on bath and all the other stuff, we lose our sense of competence and confidence when we constantly get pushback. And it just feels like obviously I'm doing something wrong or this is like this approach of lovingly, compassionately, patiently naming my kids feelings, letting them know I understand them, and then setting my limit and getting pushback over and over like it must be a me problem. But I just want you to know it's typically just confusing because here we are, all of the experts saying you have to have a close, connected relationship. So it can feel really confusing. How to set limits that they really, really hate. And so what typically happens is you say, forget it. And at that point you're totally angry and confused. And they say things like, you know, somebody asked me, well, what do I say if my kid doesn't want to get dressed? And they say, you're not in charge of me. You're not the boss of me. I'm in charge of my own body. And I think that that's where we've lost the plot as parents, because we feel like, okay, well, they make a good point. I'm trying to teach them body autonomy. And I think we get confused. And then we think, okay, either they made a really good argument, what am I supposed to say? Or we start to try to convince them, like, we really want to get them to agree with our limit. Like, to say to us, you know what? You're so right. You've convinced me. I'm not in charge of my body when it comes to my health and safety. And you're here, so thank you for that. I just needed a reminder. Of course we're not going to convince them, so we're not going to boss them into it, typically, unless it's sort of fear based, in which case fear based and just laying down the law. Or worse, making empty threats. I don't know what's worse, but empty threats, where they're like, I know how this ends. You're going to threaten me, but you're not gonna follow through. Or real threats where you scare your kids so they listen and you feel like, yeah, I'm in charge, but you have to keep upping the ante of those threats and it really corrodes the quality of the relationship. So that's one thing that doesn't work, or two things. Plus there's the other side of it, like I said, where you're trying to get them to agree to it. Like, you spend so much time negotiating because you feel like at some point they're gonna be like, okay, I'm okay with this, so I want to let go of that. You're not going to convince a young person that the limits that you're setting that they don't like, are logical and wonderful. You should give them a, an explanation because they should know that you don't just pick rules arbitrarily. But I don't want you to go back and forth where they're now giving you a PowerPoint presentation to convince you out of the limit, and you're like, okay, wait, so a respectful parent would let them do a PowerPoint presentation? Or, you know, for a younger kid, a whole logical argument back and forth. That's great for developing critical thinking skills and it's really good for developing language. So if you have the bandwidth, sure, you can chat. But I really want to discourage you from feeling like if you just reason with them because they're so mature and so thoughtful, they'll finally listen. Because what's happened is that you've now spent an hour arguing about, for example, getting in the bath or something else, cleaning up whatever it is, and that's an hour of your day, that's an hour later bedtime, that's an hour later that you're now closer to yelling. So it doesn't really seem like a great idea. And finally, it's also feeding the idea that there's have to's and want tos and kids only should do the want to's. There are some have to's. I just want you to choose your have to's wisely so that you get the big picture stuff you need and you don't want waste an hour arguing about every minutia decision. So first of all, choice makes kids feel that they have some autonomy and that is key to getting us to activate and do the thing. So the first thing that I want you to ask yourself is what choice is happening in this situation? You know, if they don't want to put their shoes on before they go outside, is the choice they can put the shoes on at the door or where they can put the shoes on in the car, or is there shard glass on the lawn and they absolutely need to put their shoes on. And so the choice is, are they going to do it or are you going to hold their body and put their shoes on for them? Chances are there's always a choice. It's just, are some of the choices a little bit like not really choices? So in the case of the shoes, it's. It might not seem like a choice if you say I can either put them on for you or you can put them on yourself, but it actually is enough of a choice that you are more likely to get compliance. And then if your child doesn't agree, then they've answered what their choice is. You're going to hold their body and you're going to put their shoes on for them. Or you might say, I don't care, there's no shard glass, they can walk to the car with their shoes in their hand or something like that. And then the choice is, do you want to hold your shoes till you get to the car or into the classroom or whatever it is. So choice really does promote cooperation. The next thing that can really help is taking away the barrier to the cooperation. Because I hear a lot like, well, my child, I'm going to go back to the bath example, won't take a bath because they don't want to stop playing. What I don't hear often is, and so I took the toy and put it away. You can do that if your child is struggling to stop playing. You can say, and here's a choice. You can say, I can put a little sign that says, Sally is playing here, do not touch, please. Or I can just put this away myself until the next time, you know, until we have more time to play, whether it's after you take your bath or tomorrow or whatever. But removing the very obvious barrier is super helpful. But just having a kid say, well, I'm not going to do it. There's always something that they would like to be doing instead that you could say to them. I'm not going to allow that right now until you've done the thing you have to do. I get it, it stinks. You really just want to play. But we have other things that have to get done and the play is a want to. Now again, that's just an example. I love play. Play is very important. It's also a have to. But I hope that you know what I mean. And then you've given them choices, You've allowed yourself, you've set fertile ground for dealing with pushback because you've taken away the barriers, you've removed the toy, you've said, you know the thing. You've taken away the thing that is the temptation not forever, but just for now. And if all else fails, you have a natural or logical consequence. Meaning if they're still not listening, it is okay to say that there's a natural or logical consequence. Natural is you keep telling your little one to stop throwing a toy. They throw it, it breaks, they no longer have that toy. A logical consequence is something that makes sense to whatever happened. So they spend so much time pushing back on getting ready for bed that you don't have as much time for the routine, the books or whatever, the songs and the hangout. Now, I know that sounds very harsh and cruel because it's bedtime and it's such a, a soft and important time, but I'm really trying to save you from that point at bedtime where it's gotten too late. So you're all well meaninged and reading and feeling Like I can't take away the number of books we read or the cuddles. And then you scream at your kid because you have taken too long and they have taken too long and it's past your point. So a lot of times our well meaninged loving selves go above and beyond. We're patient, we're patient, but we don't notice. Our whole body is telling us, I'm going to lose my mind. And so then all of the sweetness and all of the patience goes out the window because we scream and yell and now it's an hour after bedtime was going to be. We didn't want to be strict and we didn't want to be clear. And so now instead of being strict and clear, we spent an extra hour and now are fighting again and screaming. It doesn't feel good. So I'd rather you say, you know what? Instead I'm just gonna have a little bit of tough stuff happening earlier, but that way I'm not gonna lose it because my goal is not. You're not necessarily gonna change behavior of your child because you can't control their behavior, but you can absolutely control your limits and your love is just always there. There's one other thing that I want to say about really defiant moments. Typically intentional choices happen when you are fully regulated, both the adult and the child. But when you are dysregulated, meaning your nervous system is saying, I'm not liking this, I feel threatened, I'm going to fight. Going into freeze mode, you're not going to make a great decision at that time. And so even if you're offering choices, you might not get any response other than screaming. And if that screaming turns into a physical meltdown where your child is just too big to physically take somewhere and they're just screaming or they're kicking, that can be really, really hard. So I still want you to validate the feeling and I still want you to try giving the two choices. But then I just want you to help them regulate their body so they can get back to a place of actually being safe and clear. The thing is, only you know what helps your child regulate. For some people, it's a bear hug. It really is. It's just a little bit extra cozy of a hug to help them feel your nervous system. And at the same time, while you're doing that, you're taking deep breaths so you don't actually have to fake it because you're actually regulating your nervous system. But for other kids, they actually don't want you near Them, they just don't. And they need quiet or there might be some nice music that you can play that you know gets them back to zero. That is super important. Now, there are other times when you're not gonna get them regulated at all and you just are physically going to have to remove their body so that nobody's in danger. All of these things allow your kids to know they are loved, but that you're very confident in the limits that you set and so you don't need to be wishy washy and you don't need to move. The goal of whatever that limit or expectation was to meet their emotions. You can meet their emotions and stick with your limits because they learn that you only have limits for their physical and emotional safety. And it's so nice for them to know that you don't design your expectations of them and the limits that you have for their physical and emotional safety based on their young selves. In this case, it's actually quite scary to think that the grown up in your life only looks to you to make decisions about their physical and emotional wellbeing. Now, one thing about natural and logical consequences, just to keep in mind, is that I hear this all the time, like my child doesn't care. Like they just don't care about the consequences unless I take away their phone or their iPad or their screen time. But I think when people say this to me, I want them to ask themselves like, what is happening? That you want them to care, that you want them to feel the wound of this fight. It's a power struggle. It means you are losing because you care that they not only do the thing that you're asking of them, but that they do it and feel punished. And that just never really helps. So let go of trying to get them to care and just think about how they're learning to move through the world and clean up when you tell them it's necessary to clean up and or they don't have to care about the consequence that they're not gonna be able to play the thing or eat the food that they made the mess with or whatever it is that's the natural or logical consequence. They don't need to care. But I assure you that over time they're learning that there is cause and effect. So all of these things are part of the five principles of parenting. Because we know that you're focusing on your close connected relationship, not in the heat of the moment. And more often than not, not all the time, we know that we can reflect what does my Child need. What do I need right now? And you can do that again, not in the heat of the moment for your child, but maybe for you, to give you pause so that you don't just start screaming and getting into a battle, but rather you regulate, which allows them to co regulate, borrow your nervous system. Not today because they're really upset and not tomorrow, but this is a marathon. And so over time, if they keep witnessing this regulated nervous system again, more often than not, that you're not flying off the handle, that you're not afraid of their feelings, that you're not changing the rules of the game because you want to get different responses, they're going to have a better shot at being regulated adults. And then you're implementing rules. You have choices when they're available. Sometimes the choices don't feel like choices because you know that you have a particular thing that has to happen, like the example with the shoes. But there are choices because being cooperative and feeling like you have choice does typically get better behavior and buy in that your. Your rules have a good reason for emotional and physical safety. They're not just arbitrary. And so over time, your kids trust that your rules are not constantly happening and changing and uptight and ridiculous, even though they might say they are. They just notice over time, they're pretty sure that you set reasonable limits that are appropriate for them, even if they're not thanking you. And finally, of course, that you make repairs when it just doesn't go right. And we know that that is what builds stronger connection and relationships. And so it goes back again to relationship. Please do let me know if you have more questions, because I know this topic is endless and I know that people who have kids with particularly strong spirited temperaments who are also incredibly sensitive humans, those orchid kids, it can feel like nothing, quote unquote works. And the key here is that if we're looking at something works when they're with caregivers or school, then I think it should stand to reason that they most likely feel that you are their safe harbor and that you are going to be able to handle a more wild storm because they are so anchored and safe. And that doesn't mean that you let the rules go to, you know, go away because that anchoring is so important. It just means that we are aware that we get the heavier storms. I'm not sure that metaphor worked, but that's what I've got for you today.