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Raising Good Humans
The Disengagement Crisis: Why Kids Are Falling Out of Love With Learning—and How to Change That
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- [00:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:10]
Jenny Anderson
Welcome to Raising good humans. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman and today we're talking about the Disengaged Teen helping kids learn better, feel better, and live better. I'm actually interviewing Jenny Anderson, who wrote this book with Rebecca Winthrop and Jenni. Anderson is an award winning journalist, author and speaker with more than 25 years of experience and her work has appeared in some of the world's leading publications including the New York Times, where she was on staff for a decade, Time, the Atlantic, and Courts. And Rebecca Winthrop, her co author, is a leading global authority on education. She's the director of the center for Universal Education at Brookings and is an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. It's such a an important conversation about how to raise good learners, which is really at risk these days. The majority of kids are disengaged from school. They're bored, they're overwhelmed. There's a toxic combination that is boredom and overwhelm, high achievement, pressure and giving up. And so many things are easy to solve just by shifting a little bit of our attitude and language that we use in the household. So I want to tell you about this research and give you concrete strategies to solve for the different kind of learners that we're growing. And this isn't just about academics. It's really about raising curious kids who can thrive in a world in whatever way is best for them and in whatever uncertain world we're going to have. Because the goal is confusing since the goalpost changes all the time and technology changes all the time and what skills we need change all the time. But being a curious good learner is always going to be important. If you enjoy this episode, please take a minute and write a little review because it is so helpful and gets the word out and puts the podcast into the algorithm. And of course, if you haven't already, start the new year with my new book, the five Principles of Parenting, your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. And you can also find me on Substack. There's a free substack Dr. Lisa Pressman, substack.com We also meet monthly on a Zoom for anyone who does the Premium subscription that's $4.99 a month. We just have a little community of people who are coming in every month to just talk about what's on your mind. I wanted to ask you about what the disengagement crisis is like just setting this up and talking about how our kids are learning. Let's talk about disengagement first and what that Is because I think people think it's something that it might not be.
- [03:06]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, no, I'm glad you raised that point, because they definitely do. I think we can thank Big Tech for that. So engagement is really. It's a set of. It's how we act, think, and feel about learning, and it really contributes to how well we learn. And I think we often think of learning as just this cognitive thing. Right. It's our brains, it's just what we bring to it. But it is also very much our behaviors and our feelings about whether we belong in a classroom and whether we're capable of doing the work that's in front of us. So it's this kind of complex interplay of things. The disengagement crisis, which was actually the question you asked, is pervasive, profound, and should be really alarming to people. And I'm surprised that it's not. In third grade, 75% of kids say they love school, which then portends to engagement in School. By 10th grade, that figure is 25%. A quarter of kids say they love school. And a remarkable number of them, I mean, over half are basically showing up and checking it in, and they are not developing good learning habits. They are not learning what they need to learn. So the disengagement crisis is pervasive. And I think one of the things that sort of scared us the most about the research we did and what we found is that parents don't really know about it. And it's understandable because learning is impossible to see. A lot of it is invisible. Right. We see grades, and grades are complex and complicated and quite misleading at times. But a quarter of 10th graders say that they love school, and 65% of parents say they think their kids love School in 10th grade. So there's just this real mismatch. So there's a lot of kids disengaged, and a lot of parents think things are okay and they're not so great on that front.
- [04:43]
Jenny Anderson
Okay. And can you talk a little bit about the way disengagement might present in for different kids? Because I think that misunderstanding of, like, my kid is engaged because they're doing really well, or my kid is disengaged because they're doing poorly, growing grade wise. But you talk about other things. And so I wanted to kind of get into that because I think it helps us understand our kids better so that we can support them in the different styles that they might have. I want to talk about that engagement and, like, the surprising things about it. But then I also Want to ask you why it matters.
- [05:20]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, so why don't I do the first one first? So you asked kind of how it materializes in what we see, and that was exactly why we wrote the book. So we created these four modes of learning to give parents some language around what they're seeing and to help them better understand the thoughts and feelings kids have around these modes. So some of them are super not surprising. So a resistor is a kid who is withdrawing or acting out. I don't want anything to do with this. Most people know exactly who those kids are. They're often labeled the problem children. They're often children with problems. But they are known, they're passengers, they're the ones who are coasting along, they're doing the bare minimum. They show up, they don't cause problems, they tend to fly under the radar, they are very disengaged in their learning and they are doing the bare minimum. Achievers are the trickiest category of all, and I speak from experience in this particular one, both personally and as a parent. Achievers, the ones who get the gold stars, they try really hard. Parents love them because they make them look good and they feel like they're gonna, they have what it takes to succeed. And teachers love them because they reflect well on them and oftentimes everything's great and there's nothing to worry about. Right. They're working really hard and they're doing great. But a lot of achiever mode kids are very fragile. They have learned to define their self worth by their achievements. It's not about practice, it's not about growth, it's not about learning, it's just about outcomes. They're very fragile and these kids are at risk of mental health problems. So a lot of the times this is completely fine. And kids are developing great learning habits. But we talk a lot in the book about how you sort of spot small worry worrisome trends and how we can kind of steer that away from good achiever mode to away from bad achiever mode to good achievement mode. And then the sort of pinnacle is explorer mode, which is when kids are really driven by intrinsic motivation. And so they know what they care about, they know how to ask for help, they know how to marshal the resources to sort of set a goal. They can identify what they care about, they can set a goal, they can sort of find the strategies they need to meet the goal, and they can marshal the resources, the help that they need to get there. So that's kind of the pinnacle. So those are the kind of different ways kids show up. And we're very clear that these are not identities. This is not a way to pigeonhole a kid. This is not a. Oh, I have a X at all. Kids go in and out of these modes all the time. When a kid gets in a mode, gets stuck in a mode, that's when you have a problem. And the point of the book is to say, when you see these, you know, make sure the kids are aware of what's going on and make sure they don't get stuck. That is sort of the entire objective of the book. Not to pigeonhole kids, but to have more language to understand what. What's happening and help them move through those. And that's what we call agency.
- [07:58]
Jenny Anderson
Okay, so if the goal is agency, I want to kind of get into, like, why is the goal agency? I mean, I think we know why, but to really name why agency is the goal, like, what that actually does for us, and how different kinds of learners can be explorers. Like, how do you get them into that. That mode? So. So maybe we can walk through the different kinds of learners that are not going well in order to kind of explain the different approaches you would take. So that if you're talking about the achievers, you might take a different approach than if you're talking about the passengers.
- [08:41]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, that's another sort of key message in the book is parent the kid you have in the mode they're in. Right. So, I mean, there is no silver bullet, as anyone with more than one kid knows. And, you know, anyone who's had a kid for more than five seconds knows, they change a lot. And it's a pretty dynamic process that you kind of have to be aware. But to your point. So with resistors, when kids are really acting out and withdrawing again, these kids often get labeled problem children. And a lot of, you know, that can really take things in a bad direction. Typically, there is a problem happening. There is something that is really in their way. The good news is they are using their behavior to let you know that, but you have to get sort of in the trenches with them by their side and figure out what's going on. And so that is often there's a lot of disciplinary action that happens in schools towards these kids, and parents often sort of follow suit because they're fearful and they're desperate. And so there's pressure down instead of sort of what's going on. So in the book, we talk about kids with a lot of learning disabilities. So. So, you know, there's something that is making learning really, really difficult. There's bullying, There are mental health challenges. There's stuff going on at home. You know, you just have to get in the trenches with those kids and sort of figure out what's going on. Passengers, in some ways, you would think passengers would be better, but in some ways it's not. Because if you're in passenger mode, you're kind of coasting along, doing the bare minimum. These are the kids who are constantly saying, it's boring. This is boring, this is stupid. This is irrelevant. This doesn't mean anything. I'm never going to use any of this. And again, I think the most common response, because these kids present often as lazy, is to say, stop being so lazy, and you need to get your act together. And nagging. We have. I hope we talk about my favorite nagging study, which is in the book. But I don't think right now is. Is. Is the time. But that is the typical approach is to kind of nag them and force them to do the work in the hopes that eventually they're going to kind of get the bug. And that is typically not what's going to work. So passengers, honestly, it is an. And this is very counterintuitive, giving them a little autonomy, very aligned with what you talk about in your book, right? Giving them the auton autonomy to make the mistakes and then supporting them as they develop better learning habits. So giving them some space with their homework to not do the homework, get the data and the feedback of what that feels like, and then turn around and reflect with them. Reflect with their teacher what happens in that moment. But often we're preempting that moment and we're helping them to get the B's so that you never get the C or the D. You know, we're not saying do this junior year when, you know, everything's on the line. But these behaviors often present earlier. So those kids don't have a huge amount of agency. And that's the challenge, right? They're kind of like, this is. I'm just going to keep coasting. So resistors, kids in resistor mode, the advantage is that they do have agency. And so when you get their kind of learning pointed in the right direction, they often become extremely agentic and sort of. They know how to articulate what they want, and they are able to kind of move into explorer mode versus passengers can sometimes be trickier because no one. We had a few teachers tell us that they're the invisible middle. Like, they're not taking up any teachers time. They're not causing problems and they're not the high achieving kids, so they kind of sit in the middle and they get ignored a lot of the time so parents can really lean into their interests and lean into their autonomy.
- [11:55]
Jenny Anderson
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- [15:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So there are a couple things we talk about and you raise like a bunch of great points in there. It is very hard to mess with them. Not just because they make us look good, but we actually think that it's like preparing them for success, right? We think this is the right thing for them. And so I do think that question at what cost? So I think when you see a kid who's not sleeping enough, right, who is extremely fragile in the face of any setback, I think the goal for us, and this is the counterintuitive bit, I guess, is to really take stuff off their plate. So I'll give you a very direct example. My daughter was taking on more and more and more. There was an opportunity to take, you know, what's the equivalent of another AP that would have looked great? Mandarin. And I said, no, I don't think it's a good idea. Take this really easy one that is not as well recognized or validated here in the uk. And she thought that was crazy. And I really thought this is what it's going to take to get you through healthier, more balanced and without any major issues. And that was my concern. Like, I want you to be healthy at the end of this. I want you to achieve, but achieve with balance. So I think it's helping them understand that they matter beyond their achievements. So not just always. She's such a star student. She's so amazing. She's going to this college, she's done this thing, she's gotten this scholarship, she's, you know, that language gets so super internalized and it gets to be, I got to keep doing that. I, I got to keep doing that. It's, I really think we can take some time to help them reflect. Hey, what's working, what's not. Do you think you've taken on too much? Seems to me that you're really tired. You know, instead of the, this is, this is great. Oh my gosh, you're doing so much. And you know, when you get to college you can rest, you know, because that's definitely going to happen. It is. You're, you're kind of the referee. Like we're the coach who's there the whole time for the whole game. And so the, the goal isn't to like get them to college. The goal is to like get them to build a balanced, healthy life. And so I think it's really that mattering bit. I think making sure that they understand that they matter for way more than their performance. You can encourage, you know, great practice, great hard work, always emphasize and getting them to bed. I speak from very personal experience on this one. You know, it is a battle to get my achiever mode kid to bed. But I'm absolutely relentless. I don't care if you haven't finished the work. Genuinely, you need your sleep. Your sleep is more important to me than your gold stars or your A plus. And you know, usually do better when.
- [18:10]
Jenny Anderson
They get better sleep, of course.
- [18:12]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And so, and you and I know that and I totally understand why that's hard to believe. And the kid themselves will say to you, but you know, that's not going to happen and I'm going to fail and it's not going to work out and everybody else is staying up, you know, until midnight and I'm getting more, you know, and it's really hard, you know, to just stay firm and say I believe in sleep and your well being more than I do your achievements. And to your point, it, you know, it typically works in favor of the grades anyway, so it's a bit of a win win and it, you know, it's going to require them being angry at you.
- [18:48]
Jenny Anderson
I think. I mean, isn't much of adolescence that push, pull. I think these habits feel like really important for before you're getting into high school so that you're not undermining whatever their goals are in the service of, you know, our goals as parents, while at the same time recognizing like we're not done yet, like you're still a kid, even though it feels like we're trying to promote. I think the confusing part here is that we talk so much about how important agency is and then I think there's a misunderstanding that that means that there should be 100% agency before college and even in college.
- [19:29]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I'm so glad you're bringing that up. Yeah, yeah. Because that is not at all of what we're talking about. So if you think about agency, which is sort of the. Again, the ability to sort of recognize the goal that's important to you and get there. Right. And marshal the resources together, that's what we think of as agency that, like all skills in the world, requires practice. Right. You don't get to learn to make good decisions by never making any decisions. And so when we talk about agency, we're talking about developmentally appropriate agency, which, of course, sounds like super wonky and hard to understand, but some of the research that we cite in the book, I think is a great example, and hopefully it will help people, you know, listeners understand this. In classrooms where autonomy supportive teaching is used, the researchers don't ask the teachers to change their curriculum or to change what they're teaching. They don't ask them to change their disciplinary procedures. They basically ask them to shift subtly their language and offer a few choices. So instead of, you know, perspective taking is a big part of autonomy supportive teaching. So a big part of that is saying, instead of, you know, I don't like this assignment. It's stupid. Tell me why you think it's stupid. That's a very different approach than just get it done. Like, I'm your teacher. You all have to get it done. I can't handle 30 kids telling me this at a time. Instead of saying, you know, this is the way I do things, could you all give me some feedback as to what you didn't understand today so I can make sure to cover it tomorrow? Kid then has the ability to exercise some agency to say, I didn't understand this one thing because he's offering me help, his teacher's offering me help, the ability to do that. And here's an. Here's a homework assignment. I'm going to give you two ways, two options and how to do it. That is incredibly scaffolded agency. And that is the agency we're talking about. You know, we're not talking about freeform. Choose your own adventure education and. And parenting at all. Because kids, you know, kids need boundaries. But it's that practice of making choices about how to spend your time, about what you're interested in, about, you know, hopefully if. If healthy, you know, your friends. I mean, all of these things, these are the decisions. I mean, homework is a huge one, right? Like, homework is where kids learn agency. That is, they're in school most of the time being told what to do, they get home and if you're like, you have to do your homework at this time and in this way, you know, let them pick how they're going to do their homework. Of course the expectation is the homework has to get done, right. But how and when and can we think about this and can we reflect if it works and recognize that it's not going to work a hundred times before? Maybe it does work, but that is growth, right? That is so it's agency. It is the practice of making decisions so that kids can make decisions for themselves. And again, I think we see this sort of really toxic combination of helplessness and hopelessness in a lot of young people. It's a sense of like, I don't think I can change my circumstances. And so we need to in middle school and in elementary school start that process right. And then back it up. Right. We're backing it up along the way and you know, there to support them as they make a bunch of extremely bad decisions to make better ones. So hopefully when they leave, they're capable of making these decisions, you know, better than they were before.
- [22:42]
Jenny Anderson
And so you do hear a lot from parents that their elementary school kids and middle school kids don't have anything to be engaged in. Like they're not engaged with anything, they're not interested in anything because they just haven't found a thing yet. And people really, I think we've, I don't know if we've done a disservice or misunderstood something, but there does feel like young people are supposed to be really interested in something. And so when you get these younger kids or even high school students, but certainly I hear this a lot even in elementary school where it's like they're watching how other kids are into something and they'll say, well my, mine is only into video games or mine is only into something that doesn't feel like a thing. So I guess I have a two part question here. One is how much pressure are we putting on being engaged? Are there some kids for whom school is just never going to be their thing? And, and so we need to help them learn how to coast through school to the best that they can while they can focus on the, the things that are, they're better at and more interested in that are outside of school and how much of it is they just haven't found a thing yet. And we're, you know, we are here to help them figure out what it is that gets them excited.
- [24:05]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I Love both of these questions. I like to ask multiple questions. I don't know why I know and it's like my, you know, my, my very compromised working memory can't handle it. So I'm writing. Okay, so to the first one, 100% yes. School does not work for a huge number of kids. And by the way, that is not kids fault. School is designed for a very particular kind of learner and you know that it's a different discussion but interests, we say this in the book and I like the research is so compelling on it. Interests are the canvas on which skills are developed. So yes, lean into. If they are a kid who has an interest that doesn't appear to you to be a productive interest. Right. It's making paper airplanes, it's skateboarding, it's video games is a little bit of a trickier one. But there is an interest that is not an academic interest or a extracurricular college worthy interest. Lean into it. 100% yes. Because that is where they're going to learn. You know, they're going to start developing motivation, motivation to learn, motivation to find things out, motivation to persist with things, motivation to get organized, motivation to look things up, motivation to use ChatGPT, you know, in constructive ways instead of destructive ways. So I, I really, you know, and again the research is comp, very, very compelling that there is, you know, there's a replenishment effect of, of interest. So when you let kids follow their interests it can spill over into other things in life and it, you know, that's not to say if you build paper airplanes home, you're going to be like brilliant in algebra but you've got a better chance of that than if you're sitting there telling them not to do those paper airplanes. Right? Let them have that thing that they're jazzed about. One of the things we talk about a lot is like when they get home from school and they have a super tricky subject, don't ask them about that one first ask them about the thing they love and then they're like recalling that there's something positive. And then of course you can ask about the thing that they love to the second point that you asked about. Like they haven't found their thing. That is most kids by the way. 70 Peter Benson, who's done great work on positive abuse development found that like 3/4 of kids don't have a thing, but they typically have some things. And I think that's where we can kind of just lean in to whatever the thing is instead of panicking that. Is this the thing? Like, I do think we've done a massive disservice to kids and saying, find your passion. Like, we are very clear. Do not find your passion. There is no passion. Find some interests, follow those and if they change, change with it. Like, that is your emerging. You are a emergent human being and you are going to change and your interests are going to change. And that is all fine. But kids typically have something that they like and that's, you know, whatever that thing is, go with it, you know, and that will typically pick up. I mean, a lot of this is that sort of short term anxiety of like, is it all going to be okay in college or in high school versus, like, this kid seems pretty happy in this moment. My kid loves doing concoctions at home, you know, baking. Like, I had one kid who just loved to make concoctions. You know, she didn't like extra curriculars. She didn't. She really. Her social battery died quite soon after school and she needed to like stay in the kitchen and she would not follow a recipe at all, which drove me crazy. I was like, if you followed a recipe, it might taste good. And she was like, so not the point, mom, you know, and we would have this battle. And yet that concoction making, which probably went on for a year, was a thing, right? It was her thing. And we leaned into the thing and she left that. And by the way, now she cooks and bakes and follows recipes because she's 14 and not 7. And so I think if I had sort of made her do it the right way or been like, you should do chess or, you know, Latin, she wouldn't have had that spark. And she now knows that when she has this, she has like that internal data that when she's got something to trust it. You know what I mean? I think that's what we're trying to say. You've got a spark. Like light the spark for them and then let it go and it, you know, may burn bright and it may die tomorrow and you're on to something else. And like, that's okay. And I do think so much of it's our anxiety that we're bringing to it that shut it down, redirect it. I mean, sometimes it's just logistical. We need to, you know, they need to be at after school clubs and it is what it is. But like, if your kids, like, I want to do, you know, I don't know, paper mache making, like, great, fabulous, you know, you're probably not going to be Matisse, but enjoy it. The kids get so little time to just be doing stuff, you know, So I think that's the. I do think we're very strong believers. Not about passion. Find your interest, follow your interest, and then be willing to change with your interests.
- [28:42]
Jenny Anderson
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- [32:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I think that's a really powerful way of saying it. Like we would say pick the mode for the moment. You know, you've got exams, get into achiever mode. Like you got to buckle down. Right. Burned out a little bit or don't like this subject. Like, no, you don't have to give 100% to everything all the time. That is a formula for burnout. Like most of us adults now know that. So, you know, and that's unfortunately not where we've gotten kids. Like, when you ask kids right now what the number one thing that stresses about it's typically school. Right. And so I think we were scapegoating social media. And social media has major problems. And I'm glad we're having big conversations about it. I don't want to sort of let them off the hook, but I think this idea of asking kids to be excellent at all things all the time and to push on all fronts all the time is really antithetical to healthy child development.
- [33:24]
Jenny Anderson
Yeah. The other thing that I think is tricky or that I've found to be tricky is for some of the kids when you talk about burnout, for example, they're young and they don't, they can't grasp that we are serious. Like when you said to your daughter, you're not taking equivalent of the AP Mandarin. It's just like there's a limit to how much that I can support here because I know that it's too much. And even if you could handle it, it's not, it's not a recipe for long term functioning. How do you help people understand that burnout is very silent in the beginning? And how do we help kids who are super high achieving, even if they're curious and engaged, by the way, like balance, recognizing that they don't have to do it all when there is a cultural pressure, especially, you know. And again, this is why I love this conversation for younger students and younger learners so that it can be kind of helped and baked in early on. Because I think once you hit high school, you are dealing with the tension of what the society says you are going to need to do for college. And we could do all that we want to do to help support our kids and tell them like where you go to college is not the thing that defines you. And also you could do all these things and not get into college that in to you'll get into some college but not to the one that you had your heart set on. Because it's just a system. It's just a messy, very flawed system. But I am curious, like how do you deal with that tension? How does the research talk about the tension between helping kids not get into that achiever mode for burnout while also recognizing or acknowledging to them like I get that the system is telling you that that's the best mode.
- [35:24]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, no, the research, I mean the research is, I think as I alluded to before, the research sort of indicates that short term game, long term pain. And so I think your question is very much about how do we communicate that? Because we don't want to discourage the hard work. I do think there's, I mean this is, this is a bit of a tangent. I don't know that there's great research for this. This is more practical, common sense. But I do think that there's something to be said about identifying and pointing out people who are good at balance because I think we have an unhealthy way of idolizing, glamorizing, sort of that very hard work, you know, work at all costs, success at all Costs, or at least the outcome of it. And so one of the things, you know, I am a person who didn't pre Covid, didn't ever watch tv. I was just too busy. I worked in the evenings, I worked in the day and then carve out my time with kids. And like, I literally make a point of watching TV with my kids and being like, I love this TV thing. This is so great. Like, I am trying to model to a kid who I know is going to struggle to slow down that like, this is something that's like really good. And I'm like, oh. Like, I haven't actually like, just really settled down and chilled out in like a week. Like, why am I doing this to myself? I articulate in the same way we like narrate for our kids, like, oh, there's a plane, there's a bus, there's a dog. It's talking. You know, you like, you're almost narrating healthy life for kids because it's not what they're seeing. And so you're being, I mean, whatever. Everything we do annoys them. So this is like, you know, hardly out of the ordinary. But that's just, I think, one example of both. You know, we know the data. I don't think it's useful to say, by the way, you know, 80% of kids follow down this road are going to end up with mental health problems. But I think we should know the data and we should be very aware that, you know, if we look at the data right now, anxiety, depression, self harm, suicidal ideation, like, we should be alarmed by those numbers and we should react accordingly. And then b, talking about how important it is to watch a family without devices. It should be really important to walk the dog and have it be a long walk and not really talk about anything and not do anything and really lean into being not productive all the time. The scheduling thing is very, very hard, but I think you have to start early and just always say, a value in this family is balance. We sleep, we spend some time together, we spend time with family and friends, and of course we work hard, but we need all those things, you know, and it's. If you start that young, it doesn't seem quite as annoying when you're in 11th grade, right? If you sort of pipe up in 11th grade and you're like, we need balance now, it's pretty obvious that it's like, you know, a newfound thing, but it is sort of that articulating that all of these modes, oh my God, it's so Fun to go out and travel and see new things and discover new things or go to a museum. My God. It's also so nice to watch like the 99th rerun of Friends because that just replenishes me. Like, that makes me feel relaxed and happy and, you know, that's a good thing.
- [38:27]
Jenny Anderson
It's funny, I had the same pandemic discovery of television. I was like, wait, this is amazing.
- [38:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Are you like, me? You're like, I have like a hundred years of TV to catch up on. Like, I'm never leaving my house.
- [38:40]
Jenny Anderson
Yeah, I really was like, what? This is so fantastic. And I was so. I haven't let go of it. Like now.
- [38:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That's what.
- [38:50]
Jenny Anderson
That's our. That's definitely some of our serious cozy downtime. And I'm. I'm like really good at it.
- [38:58]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But isn't it like. Don't you think my mom never would have just not been productive? Like, she just wouldn't have just sat down and chilled and I. My favorite time with my family. I mean, I guess I don't know if I should be proud about saying this out loud. Is. Is sitting in my pajamas on the couch watching tv. Like, that is my perfect. And that was not my life a decade ago. So, you know, I think we're all learning and I think the world has changed a lot. Like, the world they are facing sort of uncertainty, chaos, polarization, inequality, you know, all of these things, like safe, cozy spaces where nothing gets done is okay. You know, I mean, that is like, really, really restorative in this moment. And then sort of back out into the world. And of course, sort of, like I said, the mode for the moment, right. Like exams come along, like TV goes off, right. It'll be really fun when your exams are over and we can all buckle down and watch Outer Banks. Like, looking forward to that, but you know, not for a couple of weeks, you know, and that's. And that'll make it that much better when we get to it, right? I mean, this is the. Life is relative.
- [40:00]
Jenny Anderson
Yeah. No, I think those are my absolute favorite moments. And I think my kids would say the same things. And it's really unsexy sounding, but it's like pajamas on a Friday night, just watching whatever we are excited to watch on tv and eating pizza, like, that is so dreamy to me. And I think those are the memories that when we're always trying, especially this time of year, I think everybody's like, really into memory making and cultivating and creating special experiences and we let go of how special it is to just. Just chill out together.
- [40:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah. And in some ways, I wonder if it's probably not super memorable, but my guess is it's incredibly like, you know, if you think of a sort of gas tank, like, I think it just fills your gas tank. Right. And so. And life kind of depletes it. And so it's funny because I. I mean, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that as to whether that's the thing you remember, but my guess is it's like a comfort thing. And then hopefully it's when they're, you know, in college and super stressed, they're like, I'm at max capacity here. Like, to a friend or a girlfriend or boyfriend, like, can we just watch some bad TV together? Like, we've taught them. We've given them permission. We've modeled that, you know, again, because we know that data, and I don't think we ever have to. I try to never take away that achievement, that love of achievement, because I think it's great. It is a part of who that kid is. She loves achieving things. But I'm always like, I admire so much how hard you work. It's never, you know, the gold star that you got. It's. You know, I mean, not to sound so cliche, but, like, it really is this ethic that you're developing to work really hard. And, you know, I. I try really hard to then not ask about the outcome because I'm like, who cares? Because you literally just work so hard that I would never ask for more than that. And now I hope you take a break. I hope you spend some time with your friends. I hope you get a lot of sleep. I hope you do nothing. You know, that's the. That's the back end of that. But, you know, I think, to your point, I also don't want to take away something that is hers and, by the way, is really helpful in life. Right. Like, that is going to serve her well. Like, I. We shouldn't. We shouldn't pretend that that is not the case. But it's. It's the. At what cost?
- [42:15]
Jenny Anderson
And now for a brief break so I can tell you about my sponsor. Here is something that if you listen to this podcast, you know, I'm not the best cook. And when I want to be a cook, there's a whole other layer, which is meal planning and grocery shopping and figuring out exactly what to get. And then I get stressed out about figuring that out. So Hungryroot is like having a personal nutritionist they take care of stressful meal planning. So they make recommendations for delicious healthy recipes tailored to your tastes, your nutrition preferences, your health goals, all of it. Basically, Hungryroot makes planning meals and cooking really simple and stress free. There's no high fructose corn syrup, by the way, or artificial sweeteners or preservatives in any of Hungry Roots food. And they only source top quality meat and seafood free of hormones and antibiotics. And this is my favorite part. All of these recipes from Hungryroot can be made in 15 minutes or less and they have over 15,000 recipes shipped each week. So there is something for every taste and nutrition preference. You're going to love Hungryroot as much as I do take advantage of this exclusive offer. So for a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com humans and use the code humans. That's hungryroot.com humans code humans to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com humans code humans. I think at what cost? Is a great question to ask ourselves as we're sort of navigating, supporting and scaffolding agency because we can get into those modes of like. But I feel like this is really going well for them. So I just need to check in and is there a cost? At what cost? And if there isn't, great, go for it. You mentioned, I know we have to wrap up, but you mentioned and the book talks about this and I just wanted to kind of get, just dip our toe a little bit into this new world that we're living in and AI and technology and how that comes into play in terms of disengagement and engagement and curiosity. Just a tiny little question before we go.
- [44:46]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, exactly. Can I predict the future? AI can do a remarkable number of things, but it can't decide sort of what's important and what's a goal to be met. Right. It can do the things that we ask it to do. And so it sort of reinforces how important it is for us to know ourselves. What do I care about? What do I want to change in the world? Like, you know, how do I want to walk through the world? That sort of self awareness along with the skills to then do it. Right. The discipline, the academic prowess, the strategies, the learning strategies that we talk about in the book, all of those are necessary as well, but without knowing what the goal is, you know, and that's. And again, I'm not talking about a passion. I'm talking about sort of the self awareness of what I care about. You know, I really care about people. I want to do something with people, you know, and there are multiple pathways to, to take that out there. AI can't do any of that. Right. AI cannot be metacognitive yet.
- [45:45]
Jenny Anderson
I mean, who knows?
- [45:47]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
But we, we can be. And that is like the beauty of humans. Right. And that is the. So I think it's a moment where the world is shifting so much in terms of what employers want. So that's a different question than you asked, but I just don't think that.
- [46:00]
Jenny Anderson
It'S important because I think the whole point of this is like, we're preparing our kids to thrive and flourish in a world that we don't really understand. So that's why I think even you're mentioning what employers are looking for. And all these things, these are, these are weighing on parents.
- [46:18]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah. And so it's like, if you think about the one skill that we are 100% guaranteed going to need, it is learning. Well, right? Digging in on something that we care about, figuring out what we care about, adapting when things go wrong, you know, sort of being able to get through, like, learning is really hard and it requires a tremendous amount of courage. Right. I don't get this. I mean, imagine what it takes for a kid to raise their hand and say, I don't understand this. It is really, really hard. And yet that is like such a great skill in life. Right. And so that's the skill we want to be developing. Because whatever happens with AI and whatever new set of skills, agile learning or, you know, critical problem solving, whatever the new set of skills, they change every year is going to be, that will be foundational to anything that we need to do. I was talking to a very senior woman at JP Morgan who hires and fires people yesterday. People think it's all these, you know, technical skills. She's like, I don't care what you study, you know, I want to know if you know how to figure things out and solve problems, if you can do that. I don't care if you majored in sort of Greek or literature or, you know, anything. You know, I just, that's what I need to know is that you can think and that you can communicate and that you can talk. And those are all skills that parents can help develop. You know, and that's what we talk about with Explorer mode, like help kids be curious about the world, interested in the world, have those discussions. Discussions are to, you know, Adolescent brains, what cuddles are to infants. It's everything. It is what develops them, right? And so I just think we have tremendous capacity to not sort of drill down on them, but to sort of coach and support them in this moment of tremendous uncertainty. Like it is super stressful to be a parent and to be a kid. And so what's the one thing we can just reliably know? How to be really good learners, you know, and that doesn't just mean being good at learning in school. That's another thing. And we've sort of alluded to it, but I just want to say it really clearly. Learning in life, right? Learning about your neighbors, taking care of your neighbors, learning about the world, learning about. There's so many things to learn about. School tells you this is what you need to learn. And we can tell them there is. There are so many things to learn and so many ways to develop those skills.
- [48:27]
Jenny Anderson
So that's actually a really beautiful note to sort of close on and think about, which is, and, and I know this is the whole point, but can you give like a tiny little taste of kind of how you define a great learner?
- [48:44]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Someone who's willing to ask a question about something they care about. And again, I, I do not underestimate how much bravery that requires. But I think that's part of what we're talking about in the book is that to know you care about something and care enough to then ask the question, you know, can I do this thing in such a way, you know, could I write a paper on this topic I care about? That is an expression of interest that is so healthy and so exciting, you know, can I spend some time doing this thing? Can I learn from this person? Like that kind of agendic engagement, which is such a terrible, wonky term, but like, that's sort of shaping the world to your interests, you know, not, not in any sort of broad scale way, like the classroom needs to be run my way, that way of sort of asserting yourself in the world in that very first step, according to your interests. Like that, to me is that is a good learner, someone willing to ask a question.
- [49:43]
Jenny Anderson
So what are a few. I keep saying. So then, just one more thing. So what are three ways that we as parents can sort of model and promote being a person who asks good questions, who's curious, especially because, you know, like starting out of the gate, because we're not going to be, you know, we're probably not going to say to our kids, you know, like, well, the research shows, but what are some very concrete ways that we can kind of remind them that what a good learner is. Isn't someone who studies really hard for a test or who is, you know, completely disengaged because they don't care. It's about something so much deeper and so much different, but also way more fun, which is that ability to just be like, huh? I want to know more about this.
- [50:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah. Well, I'll give you five super practical, very short tips. You asked for three. I'm going with five amazing. I'm being agentic. Okay? Number one, avoid, avoid sort of fixed mindset comments like, I'm not a math person. I'm not a science person. Right? Like, the stuff is contagious. So we're typically all in for being super authentic with your kids. But on this one, just lie, right? Like, you don't have to. You don't have to admit that you hated calculus. You know, just be like, God, math is super important in the world. And, like, you don't understand it. Like, let's get you the help. Everything can be done. Everyone can be developed. Brains are malleable. None of us are, like, not good at something permanently, right? Talk about the content of their learning. This one totally blew my mind because I was like, I don't want to be a helicopter parent. I don't want to be, like, digging into their stuff all the time and. But it validates the experience of their days. What are you doing in this class? And actually, you can do some background research, right? You can. On all these learning portals, you can find out what they did and not to monitor them, not to surveil them, to be interested in their lives. Their lives or what they do in their classrooms. A lot of their lives happen there. So if you're like, hey, I heard you dissected a frog today. Was that, like, super gross? Like, what a validation of what you were doing today. Or maybe they'll think you're hyper intrusive and crying. But I think there's a way of doing it. So talking about the content of their day, that came from Mary Helen Helen and Mordino Yang at usc. It really surprised me. I was like, oh, I guess I could not be a helicopter parent, but be interested in what they're learning and not sound crazy all the time. Model the thrill of learning and model mistakes. Like when I admitted to my kids that I made a big mistake when I was working for the New York Times, I had to print a retraction, and they were, like, horrified, right? Like, did the planet Stop spinning. Because oh my God. And I was like, oh no. People make mistakes like that all the time. Like, of course you own it and you have to fix it and it's deeply humiliating. But like, life goes on. It just totally happens and that's part of time. Was like showing them how it appears and like, honestly, they were just mortified to their tiny little bones. And I think it was a really good example of showing them that like, everyone makes mistakes. That is literally part of learning. And I was like, oh, by the way, once I made. Once I made that mistake once, never made it again, you know, like. And that is the value of mistakes. I mentioned this one, but I think asking about the good class and not the bad class. So if you have a kid who is struggling with science, you know when they come in the door and you're like, how's the biology test? How are you doing on biology? How was biology class today? Like, you know, talk about something good that happened in their day, kind of get that sort of tank filled up a little bit and then like everything going okay in biology? Like anything you want to talk about, any help I could provide, Anything that you think you need? I think that's a great question. Anything you think you need versus like, I think you need this. And finally connect the dots. Like I think this idea of schools do, in my opinion, a not great job of connecting what happens in the classroom to what's happening out in the world. And I think about 30% of, 30% of kids between 3rd and 12th grades say that what they learn at school is connected in any way to what's happening in the world. That if I had magic wand, that would be something I would definitely change in schools. But you can do that and you also know what your kid's interested in. So. Right. You can sort of try, try to connect those dots. You have so much more life experience and sort of again that like validation of what you do all day is really hard and intense. So I'm going to be interested in it and I'm also going to help you see how that connects in ways that you can't quite see it because you haven't lived outside and been in jobs and you know, done all that stuff. So I think those five things hopefully will help you build better learners.
- [54:06]
Jenny Anderson
Those are fantastic five concrete evidence based tips on growing better learners. So that was fantastic and I'm glad you decided to go past the number three.
- [54:20]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Like I said, I don't take instructions. Well.
- [54:23]
Jenny Anderson
Thank you so much. This was so interesting and I think really helpful for everybody.
- [54:29]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Elisa, thank you so much. I love your podcast. I'm a huge fan. I've been listening for a long time and it's really is an honor to be on it. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products.
- [54:58]
Jenny Anderson
Or services referred to in this episode.