The Power of Real Optimism: What It Actually Means (and How to Practice It) w/ Dr. Deepika Chopra

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: Raising Good Humans

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Episode Overview

Title: The Power of Real Optimism: What It Actually Means (and How to Practice It)
Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman
Guest: Dr. Deepika Chopra (The Optimism Doctor)
Air Date: February 13, 2026

This episode explores the concept of "real optimism"—debunking common misconceptions, examining the science behind optimism, and offering practical tools for parents to cultivate optimism both in themselves and their children. Dr. Deepika Chopra draws from research and her own parenting experiences, providing a candid and relatable perspective on modeling resilience and hope, especially through life’s challenges.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Real Optimism

• Misunderstandings about Optimism:
  • Most people conflate optimism with blind positivity or just "seeing the glass half full", but real optimism is more nuanced.
  • Dr. Chopra (00:59):

    “Optimism leaves room for all of that... you experience and you're rooted in your true authentic emotion, but at the very same time, you sort of make space. Space, or leave room for the idea that something's going to change, and that's optimism.”

• Optimism vs Positivity:
  • Positivity is only distantly related to optimism; resilience and curiosity are closer cousins.
• Full Range of Emotions:
  • Real optimism accepts mourning, grief, anger, and joy—embracing that all emotions are temporary and subject to change.

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2. Optimism and Parenting

• Modeling is Key:
  • Children learn optimism not from lectures or "curated teaching moments" but by witnessing parents' approaches to setbacks and challenges.
  • Dr. Chopra (07:05):

    "They learn through modeling... how we persevere through it and how we react through our happy moments, through the hard moments."

• Capacity & Self-Care:
  • Parents often work on themselves for their kids but, ideally, should do it for their own well-being too. This 'Trojan horse' of self-improvement is often motivated by wanting to model healthy coping for children.

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3. Language Matters: Shifting from Pessimism to Optimism

• Recognizing Pessimistic Language:
  • Casual “I always…” or “This will never…” statements can reinforce negative self-views for both adults and kids.
  • Example: Dr. Chopra shares a moment when her child called her out for saying, “God, I can never get these things open,” encouraging her to “try three more times.” (08:44)
• Gentle Reframing:
  • Replacing limiting language with gentle, specific action steps, or highlighting past successes.
  • Example: Reminding a child, “Remember the last time you thought you couldn’t put your shirt on, and now you can?” (17:12)
• Birth Order and Self-Limiting Beliefs:
  • Dr. Chopra discusses how her middle child compares himself to an older sibling and uses pessimistic language, illustrating how temperament and family roles shape attitudes.

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4. Growing Optimism as a Skill

• Optimism is Teachable & on a Continuum:
  • It’s not innate; everyone's capacity can be strengthened.
  • Dr. Chopra (03:25):

    “When you start to understand the definition of what optimism truly is, I think a lot more people close that gap and realize it's on a continuum.”

• Safety First:
  • Growth and openness to optimism require emotional safety and regulation. Work on emotional regulation and feeling safe is a prerequisite for any optimism-building activities.
• Individual Toolboxes:
  • What helps one child or adult may not work for another; tailor optimism-building exercises to each person’s unique needs.

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5. Practical Tools & Rituals for Optimism

• Rituals & Routine:
  • Rituals offer a sense of control and predictability, grounding both children and adults.
  • Weekly or daily family rituals (e.g., Friday pizza night, sharing “favorite part of the day”) soothe anxieties and reinforce an optimistic mindset.
  • Dr. Chopra (39:13):

    “Rituals are just one of the healthiest, like, best ways that most optimal ways that we can exercise control. They're extremely grounding."

• Optimism Deck of Cards:
  • Dr. Chopra developed “Things Are Looking Up: Kids”—a deck of 52 science-based activity cards.
    • Prompts include active exercises, breathing, “happiness hunts,” and reflection on past challenges now overcome (35:47).
• Morning Music Ritual:
  • Dr. Chopra describes her morning dance ritual to music as a personal optimism tool—a form of mood regulation and movement (41:29).
• Gratitude and “Favorite Part of the Day”:
  • Sharing daily positives reinforces the habit of noticing good moments, while also making room for harder emotions.

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6. Affirmations, Manifestation, and the Science of Expectation

• Manifestation Misunderstood:
  • Manifestation isn’t about wanting something and waiting for the universe to deliver. It’s crucial to actually believe a goal is possible.
  • Dr. Chopra (47:53):

    “We don't always get what we want. What we most always get is what we expect. … Unless you close that gap and you work on the expectation you're probably not going to achieve it.”

• Visual Imagery as a Tool:
  • The brain responds to imagined scenarios almost as powerfully as actual experience, increasing the likelihood of belief and action (49:59).
    • Dr. Chopra: “Your brain has mirror neurons… if you've imagined it … it is a possibility now you've seen it.”
• Affirmations: When Are They Helpful?
  • For adults, generic affirmations are often unhelpful—or even detrimental if they directly contradict deep-seated beliefs.
  • Dr. Chopra’s “7 out of 10 Rule”:
    • Use affirmations only for beliefs one feels are at least 7/10 likely.
    • Affirmations are more effective with children, who lack years of self-doubt and easily believe in possibility (53:13).
• Embracing the Process Over the Outcome:
  • Focusing solely on wanting an outcome skips the value of the effort and growth along the way, which is where true resilience and optimism are built (57:22).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Optimism’s Realism:
  • "A true optimist... is someone that is really keenly aware and mindfully aware of the roadblocks and the setbacks... but... they see them as temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome even if they don't know how or when.” —Dr. Deepika Chopra (01:00)
• On Children Learning Optimism:
  • "They're watching how we go through our struggles and how we persevere through it... That part is both an opportunity, which feels optimistic, or exciting, but also... a lot of pressure.” —Dr. Chopra (07:05)
• Reframing Limiting Language:
  • “God, I can never get these things open.”
    → “Don’t say that, Mommy! I think you just need to try three more times.” —Dr. Chopra’s son (08:44)
• On Manifestation:
  • “You could want something 10 out of 10. But do you really expect and do you think it's a possibility for you for real?” —Dr. Chopra (47:53)
• On Affirmations for Kids vs. Adults:
  • "There's potency in that and good value in that for the kids because they have reason to believe that and not a lot to challenge it. And that is our time to do that.” —Dr. Chopra (56:07)
• On Process vs. Instant Outcomes:
  • “Imagine teaching our kids... I wanted this, and then it appeared. Where did the work go? Where did the journey go? That is not... that's just not real.” —Dr. Chopra (57:22)
• On Transparency as a Parent:
  • “I always shied away from... being a psychologist or even publicly talking about anything, because I thought you had to be, like, the poster person for it... and that's just so not me... Me is messy, man.” —Dr. Chopra (63:38)
• Core Philosophy:
  • “Optimism's not built from the moments that you're feeling complete bliss. It really is from the perseverance through navigating, through emotion... It's knowing that there will be darkness, but it's knowing how to see in it.” —Dr. Chopra (63:49)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:59] – Deepika Chopra defines real optimism and debunks myths
• [07:05] – Modeling optimism for children and the double-sided pressure parents feel
• [08:44] – Language, gentle correction, and real-life parenting examples
• [13:18] – Self-limiting language in children, birth order, and capacity
• [20:17] – Individualized tools for optimism and the importance of emotional safety
• [31:28] – Sharing vulnerability and full range of the human experience with kids
• [35:39] – Dr. Chopra describes her “Things Are Looking Up: Kids” activity cards
• [39:13] – Importance and soothing power of rituals (like Friday pizza night)
• [41:29] – Everyday tools: Dr. Chopra’s morning music/dance ritual
• [47:53] – Manifestation, expectation, and action in realizing goals
• [52:31] – The limits of affirmations for adults, the “7 out of 10” rule
• [56:07] – Affirmations and the power of belief in children
• [57:22] – Teaching kids about the value of work, not just outcomes
• [63:49] – Optimism as perseverance and navigating the full range of emotions

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Real optimism is practical, rooted in the acceptance of all emotions, and the belief that things can change—regardless of present struggles.
• Children learn best by observing how adults navigate setbacks and regulate emotions; modeling is more effective than teaching by instruction.
• Intentional rituals and routines are essential, providing grounding and a consistent space for optimism amidst life's unpredictability.
• Tailor optimism-building and resilience exercises based on individual temperament and capacity.
• Affirmations are helpful for children and adults only when they resonate authentically; they should reflect beliefs that are plausible, not wishful.
• Transparency, self-compassion, and modeling authentic emotional processing are vital for raising resilient and hopeful children.

This episode blends evidence-based advice, concrete parenting examples, and honest reflections to illustrate that optimism isn’t about ignoring difficulties, but about believing in the possibility of positive change—and modeling that belief for the next generation.

Transcript

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome to Raising Good Humans. We are talking about real optimism today.

[Jessie Sholl]

My guest, Dr. Deepika Chopra has a book about to come out called Real A Practical Science Based Guide to Staying Resilient, Curious and Open. Even When Life Is Hard. Sometimes optimism is a little bit misunderstood. So we're talking about what it really is and practical tools to get there. Don't forget to share this episode with someone who needs a little real optimism bolstering in their life and write a little review of the podcast whenever you get a chance. Thank you so much.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I want you to define optimism.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah.

[Jessie Sholl]

Because.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's different than what people think.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It's different than what people think. And, and it's more doable.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

When you define it. So you go for it.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Okay. It is my favorite thing to do. So, yes. I think optimism is completely misunderstood. And, you know, whenever I'm speaking to audiences, I often ask and I'm like, what, what do you guys, what, what word comes to mind when you think of optimism? And of course, most people, it's like a resounding echo of like positivity or glass half full. And I think it's interesting and probably pretty surprising to people when the word positivity, I associate it with optimism, maybe like third, fourth, fifth word. They're sort of maybe cousins. But to me, something that is much more in relation with optimism are things like resiliency and curiosity. And so the way in which I define optimism, which I think is kind of like what you said, feels like relief, because I think a lot of people walk around this world either thinking that they are like an optimist or many people like, I'm not an optimist and I never will be. But when you start to understand the definition of what optimism truly is, I think a lot more people close that gap and realize it's on a continuum. And there's a lot more of themselves that are actually optimistic. A true optimist or someone that is leaning towards being optimistic is someone that is really keenly aware and mindfully aware of the roadblocks and the setbacks and the less than ideal situations. But the caveat is they see them as temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome even if they don't know how or when. And so it's this idea that you not only can, but you are and you should be really rooted in your true, authentic emotion, even if, and especially when it is an emotion that doesn't feel good. So, you know, Mourning, loss, grief, anger, any of those. But also, you know, the ones that do feel good, joy and happiness, elation, excitement, awe, whatever it is, we experience the full range of human emotion as humans. And optimism leaves room for all of that. So you experience and you're rooted in your true authentic emotion, but at the very same time, you sort of make space. Space, or leave room for the idea that something's going to change, and that's optimism.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

And for parents, I was thinking, how can we grow our optimism muscle? And in doing so, how can that impact our kids? I want to talk about how temperament interacts with optimism so that we can think about, like, who has a more optimistic disposition and who needs a little more work, but how we can all grow that capacity so that we can kind of focus on the ones for whom it's not as natural. And because I think if it's so associated with resilience, except you feel like, wait, the kids that I'm most worried about, or my own approach to things feels like it doesn't have this expansive sense of possibility. What are the exercises that I can do to grow those muscles in myself or in my, my kids And I. I also want to think about what are the barriers. And the idea that things are temporary is so helpful because thinking about just like, when, when things are going fantastically with our kids, we're never like, this is going to last forever, or like, when we're feeling great, we're not like, yay, I'm going to have this feeling forever. But for some reason, when things aren't going well, grabbing onto the fact that things are temporary, so much more challenging. So in whatever order you want, those are the things that I want to address.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Okay. You know what's interesting for me being on this podcast with you is that this is literally what I think about eat, breathe and sleep every day. Because, yes, I am known as the optimism doctor, and this is what I study. But I'm a parent and I have an eight year old, a five year old, and it just turned two year old. So I'm like, really in it.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And honestly, a lot of the things I thought I knew about this work, first of all, just motherhood in general, flipped all that sort of on its head.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And then as they grow and go through different phases and seasons, I'm like, so into, after becoming a mother, I'm really into this idea. I talk about it all the time, probably too much of seeing seasons, because I really believe there are so many. And that is the way to look at and sort of navigate through life. And that does just touch on the fact of what we talked about, that things are temporary. I think that, you know, you asked in the beginning something about how and maybe the importance of why we work on our own optimism. I think the most important thing that I have learned through research, but also now in real time, is that our kids don't learn from just us telling them something or coming up with, like, the best. If only, you know, when something is happening. I don't have to have the perfectly sort of curated response and research it and, like, have this teaching moment. That's the one part that gives me a little relief. And then the next part, I'm going to say, is a lot of pressure as well. On the flip side, they learn through modeling. So whatever we are doing, how we are navigating through our struggle, but they're watching how we go through our struggles and how we persevere through it and how we react and navigate through our happy moments, through the hard moments, through really big struggles. And that part is both an opportunity which feels optimistic or exciting, but also it does feel like a lot of pressure.

[Jessie Sholl]

And.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And so I think I remind myself I'm truly much more committed to growing and sort of working on my own capacity, my own nervous system, all of that. Like, I wish I could say it was for me. And as women, I think, you know, there's so many things that I think I've surpassed as a woman myself, my own limits. Not because I felt I was worth it, and I wish it was because of that, but it's because I do it for my kids.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah. It's the.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It really does motivate us. And I wish people, I wish women in particular, we could do it for just us, and we are worthy for just that reason. And also it's a really good, like, Trojan horse into helping ourselves.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah. And honestly care about our kids. That was the first intention or sort of what challenged me to push through, like, some major struggles and look at them differently. But then once you open that, I guess what's optimistic about it is, you know, you can. And then you start to think, why not for me? And I want to teach my kids that I am worth it to do X, Y, and Z for one of the things that I've really tried to work on in front of my children for sort of my own optimism and growing it, but also really intentionally, like, being mindful and aware that they're watching me and how I can sort of impart these small things in their everyday lives. Is watching my language. I would urge everyone to sort of challenge themselves. How often you sort of use more pessimistic language.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Can you give some examples?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

One of the examples I actually wrote about in my book, it was just a mundane example, but I think those work so well is I was trying to open like a jar of pasta sauce. And many times that is difficult for me. For some reason, I did the knocking on, you know, the counter. Yes, all of that. Which every time I'm like, am I going to break something? But anyway, knock on the counter, did all of it. And I, you know, just went to like, God, I can never get these things open. And I've been sort of correcting in like a gentle way my kids language. Especially my middle son, who was like, at that, at that time, he was about three for. And I think there's a lot of like that language at that time. And he across the room was like, mommy, don't say that. I don't say that. That. It's always gonna be that way. I think you just need to try three more times. Just give it three more times. And so I think, like, sometimes my kids now will throw some stuff back my way. And I always kind of like, do a little smile. I am naturally not the most optimistic person. In fact, if in my, like, small microcosm of family, I'm probably the least optimistic. And it's real work for me.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Well, research is me. Search.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Right, Exactly.

[Jessie Sholl]

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[Jessie Sholl]

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[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Okay, so in that example, actually that's such a good one for people to pay attention to is like, how often are you saying, I always.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

This will never work out. You know, my son, my middle son does it a lot because he. And I'm starting to think so much about birth order right now. He's my middle son. He just turned five. And especially over this winter break, I just see it because I was with them like every moment and at home. So they were not around friends. It was really around just the siblings. And I really started to feel the struggle of being a younger brother. He has an older brother wanting to do everything he could do and comparing the skill set, you know, even things like catching a football you know, playing basketball or math problem, like whatever it is. And to be honest, he doesn't get it yet, but he actually is, which makes sense, like so much more ahead in many ways than my older son was at that age. But he only sees it like what the other one is doing. And so there's a lot of self limiting language happening, just lots of frustration. And then he. I just for the first time noticed in this last couple weeks like there is some competing of attention with the baby. And so that like middle. I don't know, I never, I come from a family where there's two of us, my older sister and myself. I don't know anything about the like middle child or you know, any of that, but I was really starting to see it play out and it's, it's a struggle for him. And I always also like to share that, like how cool. He's the only one that gets to be a younger brother and an older brother. But at the same time I totally could acknowledge and see like this there's a struggle there. And I think that language sort of starts to come out and it came out a lot in the last two weeks. And I think with my own capacity I started to realize my language started to become pretty pessimistic. And I've been thinking about this a lot, this idea of capacity. And we can talk all day long about the things we want to change, especially people focus on it a lot at the start of this new year, the goals we have, what we're motivated to do, what we want to leave behind from 25 bring into 26, like what kind of parent we want to be. I know for a lot of parents like myself, a lot of our goals are around parenthood and sort of family goals. And I think I realized we can talk about all these things, but unless you have capacity, none of them can be met. And so the real thing is how much capacity do you have and what are you doing to increase that capacity or to just accept where you're at right now?

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

So to, to sort of close the loop on the language because I think it does have to do with even how you're talking about capacity. Because even the word capacity has an optimistic spin because it is like there is a potential there for change.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Totally.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It's not static exactly, but like, so when you're overhearing or noticing your son using limiting language, what are, what do you do in that moment or later in terms of when you have that, like when you felt like you had capacity.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

What were subtle Shifts in that language that made it less limiting.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

So in the moment, like he did to me, I always sort of have a gentle offering. Another great example is he taught himself to tie his shoes this winter break. Oh yeah. So sweet. And like he had. Had just turned five and it didn't matter about that or not. And truth be told, my older son was nowhere near tying his own shoes at 5. It was a little after that, but he was just hell bent on tying his shoes. And he spent like maybe four hours one day.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Wow.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

With like the most concentrated focus I have ever seen. The two days before that there was a lot of frustration and my older son did a lot of like dio. Like I couldn't even tie my shirt. And I'm like, that's not necessarily what he wants to hear or not. It's not really about that. Although he does compare himself a lot to his older brother. He has this thing where immediately when he doesn't get something, there's a lot of like self sort of he's mad at. There's a lot of anger towards himself and he feels that he should be able to do it immediately. And so we. There's like this subtle, like he. There was. I could. I'll never be able to do this. Well, that's not true. Everyone ties their shoes at some point, you know, or I don't know about that. Remember the last time you said you were never able to put your shirt on yourself and inside out it. He calls it inside outing it. And now you can do it. So there's all these times you say never but like, do you really feel that that's true. And so kind of challenging what that is. And then I don't know what it was. Two days after the frustration, he just had that four hour focus. He had one of those little toddler games that my mom had bought. The little one which is like, you know, Montessori. They come on like a.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

The, like the.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

There's like buckles and there's ties. Yeah. So he was doing it on there and he got it and he's like, well, now I have to get it on my shoe. So then he was doing it when his shoe wasn't on him. And then he put his shoe on him and he started doing it and he could do it and he repeated it three times. Fourth time he didn't get it. He's like frustrated again. And I said, well, don't say never because you just did it in front of my eyes. You did it in front of your eyes. And so he just was so focused. He did it. And the funny thing is the next day he wanted a new challenge and he's like, well, let me try doing it with one loop instead of two bunny ears. And so now he can do that, but it's correcting. Not even correcting, but offering something that's an alternative language wise in the moment, that's gentle. And then later on, I always like that time right before bed. I don't know if it's all kids. You would know this better. If it's my kids, they are just ready to talk.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And they're ready to receive.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Pretty much all kids, right?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah, they're ready to receive. And I'm also what's so interesting for me at this point because my 8 year old is now 8 and you know, he's. Every year that goes by, I would say every four months or five months that go by, we are unlocking these, like, different levels and layers to these conversations that we've always talked about that he just gets differently now. And so it's really exciting.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

One of the things that I think is so interesting, and it sounds like your 5 year old is like this, but just his sensitivity is just more robust. And so the good feels even better for him, the bad feels even worse. And it probably means he's gonna need to do the most exercise for optimism because maybe it's less natural to him.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Well, I was gonna say that. I think the most important thing that I've learned from doing the optimism work point of view is probably like what most experts in the mental health space or in many other spaces would say is that it sounds cliche, but each person's unique. And for me, what I am so passionate about with my clients or when I was working with patients before and now even with my children or myself, is that I love helping people come up with their own unique toolbox. And seeing it unfold is like the thing I'm most excited about.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Because what connects or attracts one person will make another person feel like this is.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Not. This doesn't work for me.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah. It's sort of like when, you know, people were so interested in love languages.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Everyone sort of ticks differently what their repair feels like, it's different, what their nervous system needs to regulate. So the things I've really learned are you can't do much work. This is all just from my own partly research, but also, again, real life experience. Kids and adults, there's not much work you can do unless you feel safe. And so the brain does not, it's not ready to grow unless it feels safe. And so the first thing is making sure that yourself or whoever it is that you're talking to, or if we're talking to our children or the young ones in our lives, they need to feel safe. You can't expect them to change, grow, you know, elevate in any way or make any sort of big, have these big conversations with them and expect them or ask them to have these aha moments or change until they feel regulated and safe. And that's the number one thing and I think comes back to capacity. So we can't do anything until we sort of reach that. And now I'm like, I have seen it with myself, I've seen it with all three of my kids and each of them being different ages and different people. And I truly believe like I have three now, they grew up in the same household, same parents, but I think they had all very different experiences based on when they were born, what they were born into, just their interaction with being everyone else in the house. Like even disposition. Yes, disposition. And my husband and I, yes, we're the same mother and father, but I think we are really different parents for each of them for sure.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I mean all of the research speaks to the temperament of the child, is going to elicit a different response from the temperament of the parent. And that dance is going to look so different. So even in a shared environment you're getting a different relationship.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And I see that so much with myself and I don't like it, to.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Be honest, but it's so fantastic.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

It's fantastic. But not to over optimistic. No, it is. But no, I, when I go to bed at night is when I feel I was telling my husband this, I'm just like, you know, and I, and I was talking actually to my best friend about this too. Based on our own temperament, I bet. And I'm just seeing it with myself that one of our children or a few or whatever it is, are easier.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Just to sort of connect with or go through the struggle moments with. Because maybe it's more chemistry wise, just works better with our temperament. And the other one or the other ones, we have to work really harder. So much harder. And when I go to sleep at night is when I feel the most empathy, compassion and guilt and I'm just like, ugh, I want to go into one of their rooms right now. But like during the day when my capacity is at like zero and I'm just, you know, answering back with like what? Instead of like yeah, Babe, what's, you know, it's really hard.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It's really hard. And all of the research on good fit is about, like, your temperament and how it matches with your child. Not having the same one, but just like, how is the fit?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

And so when it's late at night and you have time and space to think through that fit, you can start to feel like, oh, my God, I feel like I could have set up a different environment myself. Being that environment.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

We always come up with these.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

We do get another chance each day.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

We do. And I love that. And that's the part that I always sort of gravitate to. And I have to remind myself that that's, you know, what we say to those that we work with.

[Jessie Sholl]

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[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Even to our young ones. I tell my kids all the time we've got tomorrow. I mean, if we're lucky. Obviously not everyone has tomorrow, but we assume we have tomorrow.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And not everything needs to feel or be so immediate. It's about control.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And as humans, that's. We don't have it, but that's all we want. And it's what makes us the most anxious.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And so we try to exercise control where we have it. I mean a good example too with myself and I'll be transparent, is oh, so I've always been someone that my brain is always thinking. Like ever since I was a kid, constantly thinking. Never really like, you know, went into the level of having an anxiety disorder. But definitely thinking a lot more than I think my peers the brain and also really like obsessed with wanting to make meaning. So I think with that it was just constantly two good examples. Number one, my cousin, who I call my little sister, we're very close. We both had to have C sections with our first kind of around the same time. Well hers a little bit after mine. But both of us, the doctors were like, your kids are breech. You have to choose a date that if the, you know, the or is free. Like, the idea of choosing my child's birthday was probably one of the most stress inducing. She's a physician and she literally looked at the calendar, I was like, this is convenient.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

She's like, Fridays would be good because her husband is a surgeon as well. And this would be good because I can work up till the week and then like, you know, the weekend. Like, hers was very, like, pragmatic and practical. I consulted with the Chinese calendars, the zodiac sign, oh my gosh, friends, like Vedic, like, anything I could find racked my brain and was like, in the end of it, paralyzed. Couldn't come up with anything because I did not want the responsibility and I didn't want the, like, the lack of meaning of just choosing the birthday. And the funny thing is, well, it was a emergent dangerous situation. So it wasn't funny. But my son came early. He came on his own accord. He. He switched a whole sign from what he was supposed to be. And I didn't have to choose it. It wasn't practical in the end. It wasn't fun. It was horrible and emergent. But I look back and every time, like, thank God I just didn't have to choose.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Like, you don't have to be responsible for that birthday. Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And my sister, I call her my sister. She was like, in that moment, after all these years, I realized how hard it must be to be in that head of yours. And honestly, I took it as like, I felt seen. But I wouldn't trade it because I am that type of person where, you know, I can, like, tears will come out of my eyes if, like the wind is moving a branch in the right way. So. So there, you know, every part of it. And my middle son is like that. And I talked to him about this. Now I think having kids, there's like such a fun part of it where you see or you recognize things that you've been through. And I finally feel at that place. Cause for a long time, even for the last, I don't know, six years of having kids, I never quite felt like I should have children. I still felt like I was like 16.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Like, it just didn't feel right to me. I'm like, how am I these people's mom?

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

But now I finally feel at this point place where it's like there's so many of these, like, full circle moments and sharing them with them or being able to say, like, I wait, I've lived through this. Or my older son being made fun of for something and being like, well, I remember when I was in the third grade and this happened and just being transparent and showing them that, like, you know, I don't know any of the answers or all of them. But I've definitely been through some stuff and I'm like, open to sharing it with them. And I. Getting their perspective is almost like a nice opportunity also to look back and think about how I might have done something differently if I was a kid like them or. It's really, really. It's optimistic, you know, well, believing that.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

There are different possibilities, believing that our kids can kind of forge their own path and maybe make different choices and offer something to us about those choices. And also that we. I am optimistic about the fact that we don't have as much control as people think we do. But it's also, it is scary.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Right.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

But. And I actually bend. I would say, like, my assumption is that generally speaking, there's potential for, for good stuff to happen or at least change to happen.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

But I'm also like, if things are too good, then I'm like, well, this is terrible.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Right. I have that in me as well. And I don't know if it's cultural for my, like, we. Culturally, I'm not supposed to, like, like, don't talk about wins the good.

[Jessie Sholl]

Right, Right. Right.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And what's so interesting, every bit of. And I, I. It changes with me because in my family, because every bit of research I have ever studied on optimism and positive psychology is like, focus and marinate even on the good. On the good. Because I don't have to tell myself or anyone else to focus on what we need to improve on what doesn't feel good, what we're worried about.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Like, you are naturally do that.

[Jessie Sholl]

Right.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Right. We do it and we're wired that way. Right. And I'm not. I'm also not the person, which I think is surprising to many to tell people to turn that off. Like, I don't believe in ignorance is bliss. I believe in, like, the power of knowledge and knowing. And I'm not telling people to not watch the news. Yes. Boundary it. But, like, I believe we need to know. But at the same time, I think what we need to add intentionally is to focus on those good moments. And so we do something with my kids every night, which is favorite part of the day. And we've always done it. And I know there's. You know, it's funny because this is so my children. But it started as like, what's your favorite part of the day?

[Jessie Sholl]

Right.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

What was the hardest part of your day? You know, the rose thorn, you know, all that. But my kids took it to this whole other level. And it started because they probably just wanted A really long nighttime routine. It's just like, what was, you know, the thing that made you have butterflies in your stomach today? What was the funniest thing? What made you laugh? Like it was like 10 questions and then it became like silly. So we just do what your favorite part of the day was, of course, at that nighttime is when all the other stuff comes out. And I think that's my favorite part of the whole day with my children is right before bed, one on one time and just like what they say and what comes out, especially with my older one, he's just like ready to talk and so. But favorite part of the day. And he just reminded me the other day we haven't been doing that in a little bit. And it actually is feeling different. You know, I have this deck of cards. Things are looking up. It's an optimism deck of cards that a few years ago I wrote. And then after having kids, I actually, I was developing the kids version first, but the adult one is what just came out and went forward. And then about a year or so ago, the kids one we just finished. And what was so amazing is my kids got to illustrate it. So we did it together. And they themselves are like, like, especially my middle one, he's like, I think we need to pull out the cards like whenever he needs some regulation. And I.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

And what are the cards? Like, what's an example of one of the cards?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

So there's 52 of them. They each have a science based. I can't believe I haven't given you these.

[Jessie Sholl]

I do not have these.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Okay, I need to love this. I need to give them to you. They're called Things are Looking Up Kids. Because that's the kids version. They. There's 52 of them. They're each a science based prompt. So they're not like affirmations. Yeah, they're actual. They're action items. They tell you what to do and take you through something. And they're short, most of them. They range from. Some are like really fun, interesting breathing exercises, like making yourself into a tree and you know, going through a whole breathing. And they love it because they're getting up and doing all these different things. Yes, it's active to like, you know, really thinking about like a recipe for like a happy moment. Like actually the ingredients or you know, doing. Going on a happiness hunt, like a walk or around your house and picking out things or, you know, talking about something that felt, you know, vulnerable in language that's more suitable for kids and sort of talking their way through It. And so naming something that was hard, that you didn't think you could do, but, like, you actually are doing it now. And so they really range. Each one's a little different. So it's fun. And what was so interesting or fun for me is that before I joined my preschool, which we are now, it's a preschool in elementary school, which you're actually coming to speak.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Oh, are you at the center?

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah. Like this week, right?

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I hope not.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Oh, no, maybe not. I have no idea. Don't even. That's another thing. I think I've realized I'm a type B mom.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It's in February.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Okay. I realize there now that I know I'm a type B mom, but it's okay. That's just. We can't. That's just how it is.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I mean, I think that's.

[Jessie Sholl]

That's a gift.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

So I actually want to expand on that a little bit. So three things that you kind of lightly mentioned. Will you expand on the importance of rituals and routines for optimism? And I do want to know kind of the distinction between affirmations and what really is of benefit.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes. Oh, okay. So rituals are just one of the healthiest, like, best ways that most optimal ways that we can exercise control. They're extremely grounding. And I think for kids especially who really look to routine, that is their.

[Jessie Sholl]

They.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

They are coming out into this world hot and heavy on. You know, they're learning the idea that they're not in control while they are trying so hard to exercise control from a developmental standpoint. You probably know this more. More than me. But rituals are a way of giving them something that they can look forward to. And all these other things can go on in their day that can be things that were out of their control or in their control. And they work so hard at school to sort of, like, just stay contained, but knowing that they have something that they can. It's the same way. Why? I think when we were kids, and I don't know if people do it anymore, but I feel like in the 80s and the 90s, they just had something. Right. And I don't know if this is just anecdotal. I feel like a lot of families, including mine, had, like, specific nights. Like Friday, Pizza night.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Taco Tuesday.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes, Taco Tuesday. Like Blockbuster and Pizza night or bowling. Like, we had these, like, familial rituals that I just don't hear that much about anymore. I don't know.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I actually do this even further. I've noticed something that is Such a bummer. And I wonder how people have experienced this. I'll be curious, but I've noticed that let's say you do have, you know, Friday nights we always get together, or we do have Sunday night pizza night. That parents will say, well, my child didn't feel like doing that, or they wanted to make other plans and so we won't do it this week. And I'm like, but that's the whole point.

[Jessie Sholl]

That's the whole point.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And you're gonna wanna stray. But that's what it is.

[Jessie Sholl]

But we keep it.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Especially as your kids become adolescents. Like, I can't tell you how many times parents have been like, yeah, I can't get them to do Friday night anymore. I'm like, what do you mean you can't get them? It can just be. It is what you do, it is the ritual in your family. So it's a non negotiable and it's so soothing. And it is something whether or not you're in the mood for or not. It's a guarantee. And so I don't know that the research has been done on this, but I agree with you anecdotally. It feels like people feel so worried that their kids are going to be like, but that's not what I want to be doing. That they're.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And they're much easier to just let it go.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

So I, I think if anybody listening to this has felt that, like yearning for that kind of ritual but worried that they're forcing family time or something, go ahead and do it, do it.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Like I think that's everything points to. And I like that you were used the word soothing because that's what it is. It's that way for us too. When we have a ritual. There's something balming about it, you know, like I think of it like that, like it's soothing. It's. Our brains need to have something that they just know that they know no matter what is going on. And so it's the same way why I think like I have like one and, and the thing is it can't be too many. It's the same way as like morning rituals. Like we do know from research that how you start your morning off is it has an impact on the trajectory of the rest of your day.

[Jessie Sholl]

They really do.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

So I think it's great to hear that this promotes an optimism.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Oh, absolutely. So and, and further into adulthood, like for us as well.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Because I'm, I mean, I'm not going to start making my bed Every morning.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Because I have your own rich. Something else.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

But I do have the ritual of receiving the bed making.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes. Which is really nice too. My ritual is I try every morning to wake up and dance.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Oh, that's so great.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Because. And I started it in Covid. I've always been someone that music for me and that's a big thing in our house. Like our whole family. Like my middle son asks for dance parties all the time. Like after dinner. But for me, my own self, I try to wake up and the first thing I do is turn on whatever music I feel like turning on before I talk to anybody. And I might get only 10 seconds because I do have to talk to people.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

But it's like the commitment to do.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

It's the commitment to just do it. I love the idea of a ritual that is sort of like a habit stack. So you're getting multiple things happening at once that hit on many things. Because let's face it, who has time to do 10 things but that one thing, it helps me move in the morning, which moving is helpful. It's probably the only movement I really do. Which is terrible besides running after just this season. But yeah, this season. But also music's a big, big thing for me. Like music single handedly. And this is why I'm so passionate. I'm obsessed with hearing about everyone's unique tools.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah. Because for you, music is a music tool.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Can shift my mood in any direction.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

And Cross has research on this.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I forget his book shift had like in his lab he did research on the sort of exact songs that we kind of the playlist that we put together to regulate our moods.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It's very.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

I mean and it can go either way for me. Like even when I'm sad. You have your music, I have my music. And it's not to lift me out of it. It's like to further me. Just go through it.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

If you're me, music is like the number one probably most effective tool for me. Breath is up there, being out in nature, just walking, whatever it is. Hugging like physical contact for me. But music is like by far. It's my tool.

[Jessie Sholl]

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[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Okay, one last question.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Oh yeah, and we were talking about affirmations.

[Jessie Sholl]

Oh yes.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Okay, so this sort of has to do with affirmations. Okay, But I really want to hear your take on manifestation because has to do with affirmations. And so I think affirmations and that, that part of the conversation. I just want your scientific take because I think this is one of those things that sort of took on a life of its own and gets deeply misunderstood.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Absolutely. So manifestation, which obviously it's 20, 26, every single human listening has probably has some, some relationship with that word. Whether it is something that lights them up or makes them eye roll, whatever it is. Yeah, they have a relationship to that word. I actually did my dissertation many, many, many years ago on evidence based manifestation through optimism and visual imagery. But I think what a lot of people miss, and I'm not saying everyone, but sort of the general idea of what manifestation is, people really focus on this idea of just knowing what you want and then waiting to see it fall and drop into Your lap because you want it so badly. I wanted it. I put a visual called for it. I put it out in the universe and now it will appear. Ask and it is given. You know, And I think that what's interesting is I in high school, like, as a 10th grader, had a best friend whose mom was really into the Law of Attraction. And she used to give me like tapes and then CDs of it. And I would listen in my, like, Chevy Tahoe as a, you know, 15 year old to Abraham Hicks and all that stuff. And I truly, like, I believe in it. I believe what they're saying. What I couldn't get past just me because I was always a question seeker. I had to know, like, why for everything. I couldn't just take things like Faith value. They're the predecessor of the Secret. You know, they talk about the Law of Attraction, but where it comes from is like they're having this spirit or embodiment of this person named Abraham who like goes through Esther Hicks and then she talks through like his voice coming out. That part it just I couldn't get through for me. But I got so much out of it.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I never read the Law of Attraction or the Secret.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Okay, so this is where this all comes from. And it's where the big boom of manifestation really started. Okay, that and Course in Miracles, like all of that stuff. But I truly, like lived as a 10th and 11th grader, which I thought was quite young for it. Like, I believed in it. And it really did change the way I thought and I think the way I sort of lived my life. And I still believe in it. But what I, I think probably in my mind seeked out to do was to try to prove it neuroscientifically for myself so that I could actually not have this like, big shadow of doubt. That made things difficult for me to really fully drop in. And so when I was in grad school, I think not really intentionally, I think that was just like always there. And so I became really interested in the idea of positive future thinking and how that affected behavior. And the part that I will say, because this could be an entire episode on manifestation that I think people miss is, yes, it is very powerful to understand what you want for sure. But we don't always get what we want. What we most always get is what we expect. And I think that gap of you could want something 10 out of 10. But do you really expect and do you think it's a possibility for you for real? Because our brains are not to sound cliche is a very smart organ and it's efficient. And you are not tricking your brain here. It knows, it collects evidence. And so if you say, I really, you know, 10 out of 10 want this relationship, but three out of 10 do, I think it can happen for me. Unless you close that gap and you work on the expectation you're probably not going to achieve it.

[Jessie Sholl]

So if you hear yourself or someone.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Else using the kind of language that's like, I'm probably not going to get that part, or I'm probably not going to get on that team, or I'm probably not going to get asked to the dance, or I'm just trying to think of all the different examples, how do you close the gap to interrupt that thinking without it being an unrealistic appraisal?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Right. So one of the best ways is visual imagery. Your brain has mirror neurons and it doesn't really quite know the difference between when it's imagining something and when you're actually doing it. If you've imagined it, and hopefully you've used all your senses, your brain now has an image. It thinks that the mirror neurons have already fired. It is a possibility now you've seen it. So you are more likely to be able to buy into it. If you do truly do not believe that something is possible, your brain will not kickstart the executive, you know, functioning part to come up with solutions to any of the problems the same way why many people would love to win the lottery, but they don't think they're gonna win the lottery, so they will not buy a lotto ticket. And if they don't buy a lotto.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Ticket, there's no way they're winning the lottery. So it's not about, like, willing something to happen. It's just there's more of a possibility of something happening if you imagine that it could. So you do the action that lead you to that.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

If you believe that you deserve to be in a relationship and you're confident in that, you're more likely to go out on Friday night to a bar or say yes to something. If you truly don't believe it, you're probably going to have a thought about it, which then makes you have an emotion about it, which then is like, I'm gonna stay home. Your behavior is different.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

So, like, I think that is a great way for people to think about closing that gap is just it's not because you're willing it and it's going.

[Jessie Sholl]

To fall in your lap more because.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

You just don't believe it enough. It's like it drives you to action and action makes you closer to meeting that goal or pivoting to a different direction.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And the work is really, why don't you believe it? And how can you start to dismantle the self limiting belief that is keeping you from believing it's a possibility? That's the work. And it's slow. You know, it's not like. Then we come to affirmations. Honestly, like affirmations can be really helpful for some people. But what research shows is not only at best is it unhelpful, it is detrimental to the people that actually need it the most. So when you hold a specific belief in something and then you just look in the mirror and say the opposite, your brain is like, wait a second, I've got 40 years of evidence to prove to you why what you're saying is not true. And it's pretty stupid that you're saying it in front of this mirror. And then you have an added level of not only is it not true.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

But now you don't believe in it.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

More, you don't believe in it even more. And so you have to. I have this thing and I talk about it in one of the chapters of the book. It's about, I've come up with this rule, the 710 rule. If you believe something truly, and I like rating everything. It's the cognitive behavioral, you know, therapist in me from, from back, back then. But if you believe something 7 out of 10, then you can use it as an affirmation. And the reason why to make this full circle kids. I'm much more open with kids to use affirmations is because they truly do believe these things much more. They don't have a lot of the years of evidence and baggage that we have that we have sort of collected to make whatever it is we're telling ourselves not true. If that makes sense.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

It totally does. So when kids have like, I'm gonna.

[Jessie Sholl]

Be a baseball star, I'm gonna be.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

A ballerina, we don't need to knock them off that dream pedestal yet.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

No. My 8 year old literally the other day said we had a little date together and he said, he started talking about college, which just kills me because I'm not when I will ever be there. I don't know. My husband is like thankfully already someone that is there. He went away, he went to Brown for college and he didn't grow up and he grew up in North Carolina. I have lived my whole life here. I went to.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

And then you went to school here.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

And I sent my daughter across the country this year.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

It's really hard, but amazing.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

But it's amazing.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

I will be the person. Like, this is the work I have to do, otherwise I will hold my children back. And I already do. So that is my work for real. And I truly believe, I know all the research, you know, taking the risks, letting them like all of that.

[Jessie Sholl]

I know it's all easier said than done.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And I think again, temperament wise, even harder for some people. And I am in that camp. But my son. So I went to UCLA for undergrad, My husband went to Brown. And in the car the other day, out of nowhere, he was like, you know what? I think I want to go to Brown. And I was like, okay. Already thinking about, like, do I need to look into apartments in Providence? And I was like, okay. And he's like, yeah, I don't think I really want to go to ucla. Like, first of all, the idea that he could just say he wants to go to either. Of course I'm not going to sit there and be like, it's really hard to. There's a lot, you know, I'm just listening. And he's like, but that's also like going to college. That's only if I don't get drafted, you know, to be in the mlb. And if I don't, then I'll be in the mba. Then if not, I'll go to college and I'll design Legos. So like, wow, why would I be.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

The one to be like, statistical chances.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Of a half Jewish, half Indian kid from LA who is like average height, maybe his brother or sister. Just kidding. He's probably gonna listen at some point. But they're, they're really, they went on my husband. They're really tall. But yeah, there's no statistical, there's no reason. Because you know what? Like number one, there's outliers, right? And who am I to say, you know, anything about what the possibility might or might not be? And he's 8 and like, of course this is a time for him to dream big and be whatever. At eight years old, I wanted to wash dishes, that's all. And I want to be an archeologist. And I'm not doing either of those two things. I mean, I am washing dishes, but not professionally like I wanted to. And I'm certainly not an archaeologist, although it's still on my bucket list to like go on a dig someday. But you know, I think that that is a good example. But, but even further than that, you know, truly Affirmations like, you know, you see the Instagram videos of kids that are like on their way out to school and they're like, I am brave.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

I am lovable. I am loved. I am smart. I am whatever, you know, whatever those things are, I truly believe in. In. There's potency in that and good value in that for the kids because they have reason to believe that and not a lot to challenge it. And that is our time to do that. Now a 45 year old that just needs to look in the mirror and you tell them, you know, just say like, I am loved and I'm deserving of love and I'm worthy. When maybe they've had a lot of experiences that they hold this self limiting belief that maybe even if it's irrational is the opposite of that, it would be doing them detrimental. What we really need to do is start to focus on what are some things you like about yourself? Not I love myself and like slowly move our way. It's all about evidence collecting.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

That is so great because I think it's misunderstood, but can be so helpful.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes. And doable. And the other part about this that I want to just touch on for our kids, imagine. And I think you would truly get this. And I hope, I think you'd agree. But imagine teaching our kids or just going out in the world and being like, I wanted this and then it appeared like, where did the work go?

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Right.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Where did the journey go? Like, that is not like we are just basically focusing on what we want and then the outcome. And very rarely does stuff like that actually happen. And to be honest, even people that think it does, they're just discounting their own work that they put in, which is part of their resilience story, which is where optimism has grown from.

[Jessie Sholl]

Yes.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And so we're really missing the like, meat and the good part.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I think about, I think all the time. When I was little, I danced and I was pretty obsessed with ballet. This was like before my body was like, that is not an appropriate want. And I had a poster of a ballerina on my wall that said, if you can imagine it, you can dream it. No, wait, if you can imagine it, you can dream it. If you can dream it, you can become it. And I was really, really certain that I was going to be a ballerina. And then when I was 15, I ended up, it was recommended to me that I quit by the ballet mistress. And I took that poster down and I threw out all my, you know, like I just was like, this is bullshit. Like, affirmations are bullshit. Believing in something.

[Jessie Sholl]

I worked so hard.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Like, so, so hard. And then I was like, I'm never working hard on anything again because it's pointless, because you can't just will something to want it that way. So I went through a time period where I very much believed in you could do whatever you put your mind to. Then I was like, well, that was a lie. And I really resent that lie. Accept that. As I look back, it brought me to this next thing that brought me to another thing, that brought me to end up being so passionate about what I. And what I'm doing now. So it was just not that particular.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

That specific, which I think so interesting on a few levels with that, because it's like you could still dance and be a ballerina. Maybe not, right?

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I just was like, it was all an all or nothing, right?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

All or nothing.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

I'm gonna be a prima ballerina at the New York City Ball.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And that's often what we are taught, right? And so, like, it's not worth pursuing.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

If it's not going to be.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

If it's not that.

[Jessie Sholl]

Right.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

It's not that. And I think that that is only from this standpoint of, like, wisdom that you can truly look back and be able to say, well, if I didn't do, look how this fit like this. And it went through there and it went like. My husband, he was an athlete. He played baseball in college, and he didn't go to the mlb, but he coaches my kids Little League. He played basketball all of high school. Not in college, because he was playing baseball, but he plays pickup basketball with the dads of school or like, whatever it is, you know, all of his athleticism and his hard work, he looks at now, too, which is like, it kept him out of trouble. Yeah, he loved being part of a team. It literally shaped who he is. He did go and play in college, which is a big deal. But he still does these things now. They're just in a different way. And it wasn't like he had to play in the MLB or nothing. And so I think those type of things, of course, we have to. And again, I think this is something I've probably heard you say or you would say that we do have to let them come up with that journey on their own. But it also, like, full circle again, is like this fun right now of having this. Having the kids at the age they are, at least my older one, where I can share, like, the wisdom, quote unquote, or the things that have made sense or the patterns that maybe I was disappointed with. But, like, now I look at them in a different way. And so there's this. Like, he may not fully get that yet, and he's still gonna go through what he goes through. But there's this seed that's planted already because we've talked about it, we've shared about it. His dad has, like, again, just back to. I truly feel, for me, an optimistic parenting. I don't always get it right. And again, I am not the most optimistic. My kids are so much more optimistic than I am. I think that's true for many people, kids. But again, in my whole family, not as optimistic. I'm not as optimistic. But communicating and sharing and being transparent. Transparent about the whole human experience and allowing them to see our full range of emotion is so important. I think right before I had kids and even when I had kids, so in my, like, 30s, I feel like anytime I was struggling, my family or people close to me with the best intention used to always sort of throw back what I do and what I study in my face and be like, what do you mean? Like, how could you be going through a hard time? You should get this figured out. Like, you're the expert in this.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Oh, as if. If you're an expert in optimism, you.

[Jessie Sholl]

Can'T have a bad day.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes. Like, it was such a pattern. And it's also why I think I'm so passionate about describing what optimism actually is, because I'm like, wait a second, guys. Like, this is. And I'm someone that has always felt. I mean, I talk about it in my book, too. When the Titanic came out, I didn't go to school for two weeks.

[Jessie Sholl]

I could.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

I mean, like, I just. It wrecked me.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And now, like, because this is what I do, which makes perfect sense to me now, to be told that you can't have a bad day or that it's off brand is not something I ever want. My kid, I mean, not that I even can hide it. Like, I could never. I think in the last few years, it was freeing to me to know that I could do what I'm doing. I always shied away from the idea of being a psychologist or even publicly talking about anything, because I thought you had to be, like, the poster person for it or someone's guru, and that's just so not me. Like, the only way I can do it and feel passionate and still keep going is if I can be me. And me is messy, man. And I think there is you know, obviously I think I'm mature in some ways enough. And my husband and I are a good team that we don't share everything with our children.

[Jessie Sholl]

Right.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

But they do see, they've probably seen every emotion on, you know, the spectrum that each of us have gone through. And also how we.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

How do we come out the other side.

[Jessie Sholl]

Exactly.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And how we've navigated through it or repaired through it. I think that is an important piece that we can't overlook and that I always say optimism's not built from the moments that you're feeling complete bliss. It really is from the perseverance through navigating, through emotion. And it's about. It's not. It's not even about, you know, happiness. And it's not about achieving sort of a struggle free, worry free, blissful content place. It's knowing that there will be darkness, but it's knowing how to see in it. Please note that this episode may contain.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products.

[KJ Dell'Antonia]

Or services referred to in this episode.