← Raising Good Humans
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- [00:01]
Susan Dominus
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:11]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Susan Dominus wrote the Family A Journey into the Mystery of Family and Sibling Success. And it's such a cool conversation. I'm so excited to share this with you. Hello, I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman and welcome to Raising Good Humans podcast. Have you ever thought about why some families have successful children and what the measure of success is and what it is about certain siblings and what's going on in those households? Well, Susan Dominus has explored all of this and is breaking it down for us. If you enjoy this episode, please make sure to write a little review and give it a five star rating so that we get more of Raising Good Humans podcast out into the world. As always, you can find me on Instagram and on substack doctoraliza pressman.substack.com I can't wait to dive into this conversation.
- [01:10]
Susan Dominus
As a mother of fraternal twins, I think it's very humbling. You really do see the limits of your parenting because you feed them the same way. You read the same books to them every day. You have the same, you know, like, rewards charts on the refrigerator for them, and they wore the same pajamas. I mean, I think, I don't, I can't tell you how similar their upbringing was. And one of them is, you know, the social chair of his fraternity at the University of Wisconsin, and the other one goes to this tiny little school in Santa Fe called St. John's College, which is a great books program where they literally sit and read Aristotle in like a hard copy book and then talk about it in seminar, you know, so very different human beings. I mean, they have in common that they're both, I think, truly lovely, kind people. But boy, are they different in almost every other way.
- [01:57]
Podcast Host
You know, I think parents of twins are the first to buy temperament like everybody else. It takes maybe having more kids and even then feeling like, well, I was in a different place or, you know, and that's all true because the environment shapes your temperament and your biology, I guess. But like, to not consider that our kids came out of the womb a certain way is kind of wild. But that does take the pressure off. So maybe when you're a mother of twins, you out of the gate were like, but they're sleeping differently, but they're moving differently, but they potty train at a different age. Or they, one got, you know, like it was easier for one than the other. Whatever it is, maybe at an earlier point you say to yourself, oh, I can't control this in the way that everybody's making it out to be so easily controlled.
- [02:49]
Susan Dominus
Oh, that's exactly right. And I. One of my favorite people in the world is a friend of mine who had a daughter first and her daughter was extremely well behaved and very compliant. And what I love about her is that she'll admit to me that she congratulated herself on being such a fabulous parent, that she had this very patched, secure, you know, comfortable in her skin daughter who had her act together, was very organized and then she had boy twins and realized that it was like that whatever was going on with her daughter was because her daughter happened to kind of come out that way. And I love that she can own that she had it wrong and was corrected by her life experience. Experience, you know. Yeah, it's. It is really fascinating. I mean, the one who's the social chair of the fraternity at. Of his fraternity at Wisconsin, I, I can point to the spot in my living room where a babysitter turned to me when he was still in his high chair and said, this one likes to party. He's always just very curious and engaged and giggly and I don't know, it's just funny.
- [03:45]
Podcast Host
Yeah, that is okay. So speaking of all of these things, this beautiful book which is right here.
- [03:52]
Susan Dominus
Oh, so glad you have it.
- [03:54]
Podcast Host
The Family Dynamic, A Journey into the Mystery of Sibling Success has so many cool components to it. What I want to talk about. I mean, there are just so many things about this book that are so cool. Each story of each family that you chose was riveting and I wanted to kind of uniquely read about each family for days. So my first question, what people always ask about is cultivating these sibling relationships. What in the world happened that allowed for these siblings to just know in their bones that this relationship really, really matters? One of the most important things I can think of for my kids is that my kids have a close relationship with each other throughout life. So of course, when you read about families that have had a successful model of support, I'm so in. And now I'm going to let you talk because I don't want to suggest that that's what this book is about. It's just one aspect of this book. And I think in order to talk about it, maybe you can explain how you chose these six families to highlight because it's not like, so intuitive.
- [05:11]
Susan Dominus
Well, that's a good question. You know, first I. I should say that I went into this book not realizing I was interested in the fact that parents had raised numerous high achieving siblings. You know, families like The Emmanuels. One's an ambassador, one runs the biggest entertainment business, you know, that kind of thing. And so I thought I was going to go in and just, you know, try to glean what these parents had in common. And it was only really when I dug in and dug in and dug in that I understood how important the siblings were in each other's lives and therefore in their respective successes. So I didn't choose the families. I didn't choose the families because I thought they had interesting sibling connectedness stories. I chose them mostly because my criteria were did I were the fan. I was looking not just for families who had succeeded in one way or another that, you know, they had. One was the, you know, managing partner at a law firm, and another one was a banker. You know, I was interested in people who had led very bold lives. People who kind of had the feeling that they could change the world in some way or they could write a great novel or they could be an Olympic athlete. And if I'm honest, part of that is because my mom, who grew up very poor, was very much somebody who emphasized security. When I was growing up.
- [06:27]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
That was the.
- [06:28]
Susan Dominus
That was the main thing that you looked for in a career.
- [06:31]
Podcast Host
You became a writer.
- [06:33]
Susan Dominus
Well, that's not easy for them. They were totally baffled by, you know, they were like, well, what's the career track there? Like, you know, my sister worked in advertising, so, you know, you're an associate buyer, then an assistant. Then they were just like, how does this work? You know, I think they were quite nervous about it. I mean, they love the New York Times. And so that was nice when I ended up there. But I think that, you know, law school was always, you know, there in the distance, kind of remotely calling to me. So I was interested in how did parents raise kids to think that they could be a novelist, you know, like an award winning, game changing novelist like Lauren Groff, or, you know, run a major civil rights organization or be the chief judge of the ninth circuit, you know, especially when these families also came from pretty disadvantaged backgrounds. So my main criteria was that I. That they be either trailblazers in some way or overcomers in some way, or doing work that I thought was very.
- [07:27]
Podcast Host
Bold and had vision.
- [07:29]
Susan Dominus
And they were people I wanted to spend time with. I think you can tell I really admire these families a lot. And it was a huge growth experience for me to spend time with them. So it was only in spending time really getting to know them and hearing their stories. I was the one saying to them, you know, you never would be where you were if your brother hadn't bragged about you to that guy who then agreed to partner with you on that thing, you know, and, you know, he was the one who talked to you. You know, Marilyn Holifield is one of the people I was so privileged to get to know over the course of reporting this book. When she graduated from Swarthmore in something like 1969, she was a black woman. How many black female, you know, lawyers even were there who'd gone to Harvard law school? Maybe 20, you know, so it took her brother having the vision to say to her, you belong at Harvard Law School. I see you there. I know you'll thrive there. Her parents were not going to have that vision because they were from a different generation. So that's the way that siblings work on each other that I find so interesting.
- [08:23]
Podcast Host
And I wonder sometimes how these are two distinguishing things I wanted to uncover along with you. So many of the features that seem so beautiful, like, I believe in family mission statements and kind of having an idea about who you are as a family. And I really. I feel like conscious or not, all these families had these mottos that you found. So I wanted to talk about those, but then I wanted to understand, like, how did different siblings interpret them and how. How are they supporting each other? Like, what were the best features of support? Because it couldn't have started out that way for all of them, because we all have kids who've. Or presumably a lot of people are have or around kids who are young and. And not, you know, able to think about the. The ways in which they can support each other in. In the macro ways that you talk about. Because in these stories, these families are doing it throughout life. It's not like they're seven and you've figured it out.
- [09:25]
Susan Dominus
Well, I would say that the Mergias would tell you that when they were young. So the Mergias, there's a civil rights leader who runs Unidos us, which is the largest Latino civil rights group in the country. And her brother is one of the most prominent Latino philanthropists in the country. Another brother was. Till he had a reversal of fortune, I would say, a federal judge. And the sister is. Mary Murguia, is the chief judge of the 9th Circuit. So they fought a lot as kids. I mean, the twins were always very close. They're identical twins. And there is some research, by the way, that suggests that identical twins are closer than fraternal twins. They're almost like they function as kind of one person in a way. And. Or they. They're sort of more affiliated in some. In some intense way. But, you know, this. The chapter of the Murgia starts with the sisters fighting with the brother about whether they have to do this chore that they think is kind of sexist. And they were very competitive, and there was a lot of one upsmanship. And in retrospect, Mary Maria told me that she thinks that was kind of healthy for them because they learned how to really make their way in a competitive workplace. But when they got older, they were. So. They really revered their parents. And that's the hard part, right, is like, what can you say to parents? Make sure your children, you know, see you sacrificing everything for them and, you know, working extraordinarily long hours and being humble and, you know, being someone the community admires, even though you're not necessarily, like, professionally successful. But they can see that you're connected to the community and you're generous in the ways that you can be, you know. So they all really looked up to their parents, and they really wanted to, as Ramon Regia told me, burnish their Mergia name. Like, they really wanted to succeed by honoring their parents, to honor their parents by succeeding. And as they grew up, they had each other's back. You know, they took different channels of professional pursuits, but there was a lot of connection making and introducing, and they were all extremely likable. And so if somebody met somebody, it was easy to, you know, ask them to meet the sister. But they brainstormed together around the table on Sundays when they had big professional moves to make. It was almost like this little consortium. It wasn't casual. It was pretty structured. So I think that they outgrew the competitiveness and came to see themselves as like, the Murkia brand is a word that they used. And it was a brand they were really proud of. And it, you know, stood for and still does stand for humility, social justice, service, equality, opportunity, that kind of thing.
- [11:51]
Podcast Host
And so I guess the mission statement, the brand, the mottos they do, like, set you up to question if you're going against that, if you really. If that aligns with your values.
- [12:04]
Susan Dominus
Yeah, I think that's, you know, it's. It's possible that their father, because they do. They did have family mottos that do sort of beautifully illustrate where they ended up. I mean, their father used to say to them, well, first of all, their mother used to say, with God's help, all things possible. You know, and then their father used to say, the sun shines on all of us, you know, meaning like opportunity is there for you to seize. Don't think it's not. But he also used to say, and this is really key to the Murgias because they are so such humble people in the most sort of dignified way. He used to say, nobody's better than you, but you're no better than anyone else. He didn't make like that's something other people have said, but it resonated with them and, and they really, you know, took it to heart, I think. And you know, Janet McGee was the kind of person who, when she worked in the White House, you know, it was just clear that like everybody who worked at the White House, from, you know, the most powerful person to the janitor, knew her and loved her. You know, she's just a very. Just a very decent human being. Yeah.
- [13:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [14:12]
Podcast Host
Which are really just walks where I.
- [14:14]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [16:10]
Podcast Host
I've had these moments where culturally we're at a time when achievement pressures, even though we've been talking about them for years and actually my first advisor in graduate school was Sunya Luther and she was, we were collecting the data that's now part of Jenny Wallace's book.
- [16:29]
Susan Dominus
And that was like two decades ago.
- [16:31]
Podcast Host
So she was already noticing achievement pressures and comparing high seas and low SES and this U shaped curve that happened and, and the protective features of like a mother that had. Or mother primary caregiver being okay is the first thing that we have to focus on. And she also was the, the first researcher to talk about sort of being loved for who you are, not the splendor of your accomplishments. Which I, which stuck with me. I didn't have kids then, but I just was like, oh, that sentence really stuck with me. So then when I'm reading this, I'm like these, this, these are really interesting families because there is a splendor in their accomplishments. But it does seem like there is. And probably you chose this perhaps, but like there, there seems to be like deep love and connection amongst the families. And so you wonder. Well, part of, part of building the capacity to do, to be curious and to do what you're going to do and to keep pushing forward despite setbacks is having a close relationship with a primary caregiver. And part of me was like, you know, for high achieving, high SES families who are just like, you've been given so many privileges, so I'm expecting the moon from you. It's a different thing. Like it comes across differently than hey, the sun shines on all of us. It's the opportunities that you know, or I think I'm mixing the mottos. But for families who had to really fight to be able to be at a law school when there were so few black women at Harvard Law School, that feels like a different achievement pressure. Because you almost need to be loved.
- [18:27]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
For who you are, but like given.
- [18:29]
Podcast Host
The potential for all that. Whereas if you're talking to a kid who's like, comes from a family history of money and power and high success and, and academic success, I always wonder, there's obviously pressure no matter what, no matter what your parents say because of their accomplishments and, and their parents accomplishments and so forth. But if you want no pressure, if you're like, like, I've never looked at my kids grades, what a crazy thing to say in this culture. But I can easily say that I have two daughters and I think they're harder and hard enough on themselves. So I don't want to like add to it. I'm sure that I would look at the grades of a kid who was challenging me and like the teachers were calling and, and so forth. But I was reading this and I was thinking, where do you find that balance of being afraid of expectations if you come from too much? When I say success, I just mean like the privilege of education and not worrying about food insecurity and having like relative success is different to me than if you need to know, you have to, you have to be built up to get out of a place where people are being told you need to stay.
- [19:48]
Susan Dominus
Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think what it boils down to because. So first I'll stop and I'll tell you that one of the reasons that I was motivated to read to write this book is is that because my parents, I mean my father was, you know, very successful advertising executive, but we didn't have a long line of, you know, my mother's father, you know, my cousin always said he wasn't the contractor, he was the guy the contractor called to paint the house. You know what I mean? Like, right. My grandmother worked in a factory, my father's mother was a secretary. Like we come from pretty humble backgrounds and I actually found that very liberating. And when I got to college and I went for fancy college and I met all these people who had come from illustrious, illustrious backgrounds, like my best friend, Anya Epstein, whose grandfather was one of the writers of Casablanca and whose father was this esteemed novelist who, you know, I just thought, is, is that harder than coming up from sort of not in a illustrious family or is that easier? Like, is it, is it. Would I rather have the burdens of those expectations or would I rather be like, hey, whatever I do is gravy? Because it's not like I have to stop. You know, there's no influence, anxiety influence in my family, put it that way, you know.
- [20:55]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [20:56]
Susan Dominus
And so I have. But I guess what I would say about a lot of the families that I saw in this book, what, what differentiates the kid who feels the pressure to excel because they're coming from every privilege and therefore why shouldn't they? And also their parents want them to and, you know, they don't want to be downwardly mobile. And the difference between those kids and a lot of the young people I write about in the book, I would say is perhaps purpose. Like the kids, the kids I'm writing about mostly in this book are kids who have a sense of purpose. So, you know, Bishop Holifield's father had traveled at great peril by himself as a 14 year old kid from Mississippi to Alabama in order to secure himself a high school education. Because as a black kid, he couldn't get it in Mississippi. He went all the way to Tuskegee and he came from nothing. And he built up this like fairly successful real estate empire and he was a soil conservationist. And his. The mom was a. Also came from very humble background and she became, she started a school so that young black girls could become nurses and enter the middle class. And the father used to say to them, all you have to do is show up at school. You know, like, look what we had to do to get an education. All you had to do is show up. So you have to do better than we did. And so I think it was, that was bishop, as a 70 year old man quoted that to me, I think it was still weighing on him. He said to me, you know, I still don't know if I have. But there was a sense of personality, purpose that their parents had been so upwardly mobile and they needed to continue that tradition, not just to make their parents proud, but because it was part of like, you know, the moment of black history that they were part of and proud to be part of. So, you know, and again, the margillas, they were, they were, you know, I chose people who had senses of purpose, of course. But I do think that was largely what motivated them. And achievement for achievement's sake, you know, doesn't end well. It does not end well. And even saying to somebody, you know, even saying to a kid like, you've had every resource and every privilege the world. Look, the Holyfields were a black family growing up in Jim Crow South. So there's only, you know, they were still overcoming quite a lot. But for somebody from a high socioeconomic background and you know, every other kind of privilege saying to their kid like you must do well because you have no excuse not to. That's not, that's not motivating, I don't think.
- [23:03]
Podcast Host
And I was thinking like, oh, so my grandparents came after the Holocaust and they, you know, my Grandfather the. Was 15 when he was. Yeah. When they were very young when they lost their families and were in this horrible. I mean it was obvious. I don't even know what words to use. But then they come to the United States and my grandfather's like, he's, he's collecting metal in a push cart and then he's selling the metal and then he has a metal company and then he has enough to be able to, you know, it. By the time I, my father and his siblings were going off to college. They had cars, they had things like it was a real success story in that way. And the expectation was they, they, they become doctors. Like that is, it's a non negotiable, you become doctors or some, something along those lines. And then what I noticed was in the, in the immigrant trajectory, there's a lot of like your first generation, you have to become something. Doctors was in my family, lawyers, it could be anything. And then they have kids and they're like, go be an artist, go do whatever you want. And then you have all of these questions about like, what am I supposed to be doing to make the hardship and the lives of my family history matters. That's what I think my parents generation felt. And then in my generation and even my kids feel it like my grandfather, he's a hundred. I love how you start the book talking about, you know, when your parents sent you to the neighbors. Can you talk about that? Because I think the perspective of realizing how different families are even in the same neighborhood is it's the beginning of unlocking this deep need we have in the world right now to stop thinking everybody thinks exactly as you do.
- [25:06]
Susan Dominus
Sure. So the, the book starts with my parents used to go away on these two week business trips. And so I would go stay with really good family friends of ours for two weeks at a time. And I stayed with this one particular family a few times, but also other families. And it really, you really see family culture when you're actually living there and having breakfast with them and sitting down to dinner with them. But that was what was most remarkably different was dinner time. So in my house, you know, my siblings and I were sort of squabbling and there was a little bit of like, chew with your mouth closed. And my parents would catch up about my dad's work day. And my mom's a great cook, but it was like, you know, we just, it was, it was, you know, healthy. And we were in, we were out, you know, and the Goldies would sit down. There was wine with dinner, I remember, and even conversation about the label on the wine. And at a certain point in the meal, Mr. Goldie would turn to one of his sons and say, like, so Daniel, a plane is leaving Cleveland flying 2,000 miles an hour. I mean, I'm making up these numbers. I don't know how fast a plane even flies, you know, and another one's leaving. And so he's asking these kids to do calculus in their mind, basically. And. And then they would also have a little conversation about current events. What do we think about the news? This was just very different for me, and I really enjoyed it, was like fascinated by it until the moment when Mr. Goldie said to me, so, Susie, a plane is leaving, you know, and I had a slight nervous breakdown at the table because I was. I could not do that. But I did wonder, you know, what would it have been like to have grown up with that all the time. And maybe for me, that would have been easy to do that math problem by then, because I'd been doing it since the time I was 6 or 7. And maybe math wouldn't have been as intimidating to me as it was. And I definitely didn't know anything about current events. And so I actually was kind of a little bit of an overachiever. And. And I think there was a little part of me that was like, oh, no, like, what's being left on the table here? You know, that I'm not doing this at home. That said, it was a big relief to go home to my own family, you know, where the expectations for the dinner table were a little bit more low key. So I think because of that, I really was always interested in other families culture around enrichment. Like, I was riveted by the fact that my friend Anya's father used to read Dickens to her before bedtime and that, you know, famous authors like John Updike and Doris Lessing came to dinner. I mean, to her those people were just, you know, John Updike was kind of a drunken, you know, guy. Her dad knew he wasn't that way. And so. But I really wondered like again, what would be different, you know, if I had been, been raised with this enrichment and really encouraged to think of myself as somebody who, you know. And again, my parents supported me and they sent me to college and they, you know, they were pretty frugal people, but like really they were quite frugal people in fact. But if I wanted journals or books, you know, I mean, I went to the library every week. That was like a big thing, ten books a week. But they would buy me journals and occasionally books and things like that. Like they, they, that was something they would splurge on, you know.
- [28:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now for a quick break.
- [28:06]
Podcast Host
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- [29:45]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [30:46]
Podcast Host
So you gotta, you gotta do it.
- [30:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [31:16]
Podcast Host
You know, I find it so interesting because in all of the families, it's maybe not all of them, but it felt like reading was a real expectation. And I actually had like a pang of panic for everybody reading it, thinking it's like, how do we recapture something that is so hard to do? Even my oldest is a really voracious reader. But even in the last couple of years, I mean it worked out. Cause in high school you have to read. But she's like, her leisure reading is really turned down quite a bit. And I, I did have a pang because I was like, God, how do you, you, you really can't do this without reading. You really can't.
- [32:05]
Susan Dominus
Is that what you think? I, I don't know that that's true because, you know, I don't know yet. We don't know yet. And what's interesting to me, I mean, because for a while I was a little bit like, but you know what, there's a lot to be learned from television and in cinema and that's part of popular culture. Sure. Headache from that. Maybe it's not quite the same. I mean, Ezra Klein's done great Episodes about, like, the value of deep reading and what it does to your brain and how it organizes your brain. But I was like, okay, television, television, smart. It can be funny, it can be satire. You can pick up on a lot. Totally. But then now kids barely watch television. They don't have the patience for movies even.
- [32:34]
Podcast Host
Yeah, no, I, I actually think that goes. That probably should go into the bucket of, of literature because I think about, like, all the people who have stories of, like, sitting down with their parent and watching, like, this, you know, the list of great films or something like that, or a series together. But yeah, it's, it's quick. I'm not on the bandwagon of, like, the world will be destroyed by technology and social media and all that. I. I'm not excited by it, but I don't, I don't think anything is as extreme as we're made to feel it is. But I do worry, and I, I feel like my worry got larger when I was reading this. And maybe to your point, it isn't just the reading, it's maybe just like the attention skills.
- [33:23]
Susan Dominus
Yeah, I do wonder about that. I mean, obviously it's like, so hard to predict the future, right? And so, because maybe, you know, you want to say, like, well, if you're going to do deep, analytical legal thinking, like, how can you not have years of reading behind you? But, like, I don't know, is AI going to replace most legal work? Maybe, like, the future is so hard to predict. Right. I mean, I think for me, a lot of what parents can do, I mean, the best thing about reading, it's not necessarily that it's going to set you up for success, although I think there is a lot to suggest that it helps. But, I don't know, it's just one of life's great pleasures and joys that you want to children and really give them a chance to connect to it. Even if it is Captain Underpants, like, the debate over whether to give kids. That seems so crazy to me. Like, whatever you want to read book, whatever you want to read, that is fine. You know, you want to read Flowers in the Attic.
- [34:14]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
A.
- [34:14]
Susan Dominus
Okay with me.
- [34:15]
Podcast Host
Totally agree.
- [34:17]
Susan Dominus
Dated reference.
- [34:18]
Podcast Host
But, you know, I was so dated.
- [34:21]
Susan Dominus
Yes. Well, whatever it is that your kid wants to read, like, I, I say, like, go for it.
- [34:26]
Podcast Host
And I think if, if you do things, anything you do early enough wires your brain to have an easier time doing it later. So, like, you're, you know, when you're doing math, did the early music help you a little bit. It just probably it was just a muscle you were exercising earlier.
- [34:42]
Susan Dominus
Yeah. And a comfort level that you have with it.
- [34:44]
Podcast Host
Here's the thing about this book that's so cool. It's just very thought provoking. It's just like you, it just you, you start to go through all of your experiences and other people's experiences and then you just wonder about nurturing nature and like all of the things. There were some themes that you found.
- [35:01]
Susan Dominus
Yeah, I would say that I found one of the things we've talked, we've talked about already, I think a spirit of optimism and can do. And my friend Meg used the example that it was almost like whoever broke, you know, it wasn't until somebody broke the four minute mile that then everybody else could follow, you know, and do the same thing within the same year. These, you know, these young people did have parents who themselves had done the equivalent of something pretty extraordinary. And I think that they, you know, the sound barrier was not like, you know, holding them back, but, but so the spirit. But you know, even if you yourself have not done something extraordinary, you can still foster a spirit of like any, you know, you know, all things possible. Like, I wish, I kind of wish I'd called the book All Things Possible because I think that is a really healthy sentiment to give kids. Actually, I think that a lot of the parents. Oh, no. Do you disagree? No.
- [35:49]
Podcast Host
You know, it's funny because I, I always, I'm so torn with that particular sentiment. And I was thinking about it in the book because sometimes I think, well, no, not all things are possible. And a realistic appraisal with an optimistic bend is probably like a path to maybe a healthier mental state than the idea of all things possible. So you're always. Your potential maybe is so limitless that you always feel like you haven't hit it yet. On the other hand, that's so sad because I remember a poster on my wall as a child. If you can imagine it, you can achieve it. If you can dream it, you can become it.
- [36:33]
Susan Dominus
Amazing.
- [36:34]
Podcast Host
Like on my wall, my entire childhood and it was a ballerina and I wanted to be a ballerina. And I would never be a ballerina. Like, I was really good. I hit my peak at 15 and had to quit because it was so not my body type. It was so not my natural skill set. Like, my feet were flat and I would, I worked my tail off to do all the exercises you can do to make your arches look decent enough. But ultimately with that poster up, I was like, my dreams were so crushed.
- [37:09]
Susan Dominus
Yeah.
- [37:09]
Podcast Host
And I Am so glad they were crushed because I. It ended up bringing me to other things, and it taught me so much. And in hindsight, I'm so thrilled with all the different ways that life took a turn. But at the time, I was like, you just. You can dream it, but you cannot become it.
- [37:30]
Susan Dominus
Well, it's true. So that's the funny thing. You know, David Epstein wrote this brilliant book, the Talent Gene, and he talks about how, like, most professional baseball players have better than 2020 vision. Like, you know, to get to that level, it's not enough just to work your tail off like you. Actually, it helps to have some kind of frankly, genetic, you know, boost that puts that. Everybody works their tail off. Everybody wants to be a professional baseball player, you know, but you've got to have everything going for you.
- [37:54]
Podcast Host
Everything.
- [37:54]
Susan Dominus
Right?
- [37:54]
Podcast Host
Because I think there are also talented people that just don't have the. The capacity to be disciplined. And then that's. They're not going to get there either. I do love the hopefulness, but I was like, you know, I'm always torn. It's so annoying. It's an annoying thing. They also think psychologists are always like, on the one hand. On the other hand.
- [38:14]
Susan Dominus
Well, I'll tell you how I came to think about it. It's striking a balance between. You don't have to go out and conquer the world or, you know, find a cure for cancer or run, you know, a multinational, you know, corporation or a hugely influential nonprofit, or find, you know, a new way or break the sound bar, whatever it is. You don't have to do that. But if you want to go for it, you know, I think a go for it spirit is. Is something that is not an unreasonable, you know, kind of energy to have.
- [38:45]
Podcast Host
I totally agree. I think that go for it is so huge. And also it makes you think. At a minimum, the adults in my life who believe in me and my siblings to bring it back to this book as well, think I can go for it, even if the world is going to say no.
- [39:03]
Susan Dominus
And even. And it's up to me to decide whether I want to or not. Like, you know, and our family, you know, we, like, we speak with reverence of teachers in our household. You know, we are. We really. That we believe that is like a great service that, you know, people do for the world as children, and we can't thank them enough. And, you know, so I. I don't. I don't think that there's only one kind of ambition that you can foster in your kids, but I do think The. I. You know, I guess maybe because of my own upbringing, you know, I. I wish there'd been a little bit more of that energy in the household, you know, of, like, whatever you want, go for it. You know, because I. I think I felt a little fearful and tentative heading out into the world. I don't know what would have been different. I love what I do in the end.
- [39:45]
Podcast Host
Don't you have a Pulitzer Prize?
- [39:47]
Susan Dominus
Well, I always. I was part of a team that won the Pulitzer Prize. Still, that.
- [39:52]
Podcast Host
That feels like just to. Just to set the stage, like, for. It's interesting because when you were saying, well, at my house, we were just sort of goofing around at the table or whatever. But you also. That, like, when you throw in 10 books a week plus goofing around at the dinner table. I think that's a. That sounds like an idyllic upbringing in. In a way, like a balance.
- [40:17]
Susan Dominus
I do think I had an idyllic upbringing. I mean, I. I was the one go. I was the one dragging my mother to the library. I loved to read, and.
- [40:24]
Podcast Host
And I. Wow.
- [40:25]
Susan Dominus
It was my escape from everything. And I. You know, I mean, the thing I really hated was being dragged away from a book to go set the table or something like that. But my parents, they made you do it? Oh, sure. Yes. Oh, definitely.
- [40:39]
Podcast Host
You say that casually, but I think that. I think that that's a rarity now.
- [40:44]
Susan Dominus
I am shocked. I mean, we have. My kids. My boys did their own laundry from the time they were maybe in 10th grade, which, by the way, meant that there was usually a pile of laundry in the basement. Every morning, they'd run down to the basement and, like, get it one dirty clothes.
- [40:56]
Podcast Host
Or do they do the laundry but just not want to put it away?
- [40:59]
Susan Dominus
Correct. So they'd, like, get one T shirt at a time, you know, and get. But they did it, you know, and people were often surprised. And for some of my friends, their kids, it was like going to college. The first thing they needed to do is learn how to do their laundry. And I always said, look, if I did it as a child, you can do it as a child, too. And we didn't have tons and tons of chores by a long stretch. But I do think that stuff. It is sort of part of, you know, what Julia Leonard's work is about. Like, parents underestimate what kids are capable of, for sure. You know, I end the book by saying in the acknowledgments that I was really grateful to my parents because they wanted us to go to we were going to college. And by the way, as daughters, my sister and I, we were going to work, you know, we were going to have careers, we were going to be independent. We were going to be able to walk away from a bad marriage if we wanted to, like. And ideally, we were going to have financial security that we created for ourselves. So there was a very feminist message coming from my mother. But that said she, they didn't need us to achieve in any profound way. If anything, they were always telling me, just turn in the paper. It's fine if you get a B. Can we get on with our lives here? You know, they were not. You know, it's partly it was because I was innately, for whatever reason, so they definitely pushed. I mean, my siblings are, you know, hugely professionally successful people. But I. I would say that, like, I remember moments when there was discussion over a grade or a paper that was laid, you know, that they could push my parents. But, yeah, there were. There were expectations, for sure, but. But you didn't have to be the best. You didn't have to be. I mean, I was gutted when I didn't win the major English prize in college. And my father was like, wait, I don't understand. You go to one of the most competitive colleges in the country. You're in a huge major. It's not enough for you that, like, you did well in the. You had to be the best person in the manger. Like, they couldn't really relate to that even, you know, which is healthy. And was a huge relief to hear him put it that way.
- [42:44]
Podcast Host
My daughter said to me that she feels like if I. Because now she's 18. I think I can say this. She has said to me for many years now, if you had just been more like, so and so's mom who's, like, really, like, on, like, just a mom who's like, sees the potential in a kid and is like, we're gonna fly you to the moon. She was like, I would be so much more accomplished. And I. I keep hoping that you will look back the way you're looking back someday and say, I was given the opportunities, but I was not told that this had to. To be or whatever. But every once in a while, like, my best friend and I had kids of the same age, and they're very close, and the two of them were doing a talent show in, like. We were probably in, like, sixth grade at some camp, and they decided to be the jump rope sisters. And it was. They were practicing for us, and it was the dumbest worst, like, possible thing you could do in a talent show. And we both looked at each other, and at the same time, this friend that I will not name, we said, I think she might have been right. She might have been onto something. Like, oh, what have we.
- [43:59]
Susan Dominus
What have we done here?
- [44:00]
Podcast Host
And now they're both, you know, 18. And so, like, we're very. We're so thrilled with the humans that they are. But in that moment, I was like, I mean, we could be a little bit. Like, we could have pushed that a little bit, but I think it depends on the kids and the family. Yeah.
- [44:19]
Susan Dominus
And I think that your daughter will. I mean, just based on my own experience, she will come to be very grateful for the fact that she really charted her own path. And whatever happened, happened because of her. I mean, you don't want to become, like. I mean, just on the face of it, the idea that one would be enmeshed with one's child's accomplishments. It doesn't sound right. Right.
- [44:37]
Podcast Host
You know what? That brings me to the Paulus family with the greatest quote of all time. Oh, my God, please tell that story. It is exactly. I thought it was the coolest way to describe how you want support from your mother.
- [44:52]
Susan Dominus
I felt the same way. And my friend read the book and thought, this woman, Teruka Paulus, is, like, the hero of the book.
- [44:59]
Podcast Host
Incredible.
- [45:00]
Susan Dominus
Yeah. So Diane Paulus was a very accomplished young lady, and she actually was dance, you know, in part because her family just lived at Lincoln center, you know, lived just blocks from Lincoln Center. It was. If you were a reasonably talented girl who worked hard, you know, you could conceivably end up dancing with the American Ballet Theater, which she did as a very young child. And her mother used to go with her sometimes, you know, and. And Diane loved to perform at, like, you know, the. The bandstand in Grand Central or. Or. But she also danced, you know, with Baryshnikov on a regular. Not on a regular, but she danced with the American Ballet Theater. And her mom, who worked extremely hard as a kind of seamstress and designer of beautiful table linens, very bespoke kinds of things, would come and watch and enjoy her daughter. And by the way, Marilyn Holifield told me that her mother used to just sit in the living room, and Marilyn was also an accomplished piano player. And her mother would just sit and take it in and never comment, never say, pick it up at the end, or, you know, just enjoyed her daughter. And so Diane said her mother would come and watch without desire. You know, that she was. And she was. And she was there for her, but she was, she let the, you know, at the American Ballet Theater, there's plenty of instructors there to tell you when you need to, like, pull in your core or, you know, move more gracefully. She did not do that. She was. The discipline happened at the ballet school and home was a place for like, support and love.
- [46:25]
Podcast Host
And I love that Watch without desire is such a. Whether that is so translatable to sports, to ballet, to any art, to anything. Just watch without desire. And I think that that is an antidote to being enmeshed in the accomplishment side of it all.
- [46:47]
Susan Dominus
Yeah, I agree. I just think if your child is afraid of, you know, disappointing you, is afraid that, you know, you're going to walk in the door and they won't be practicing, you know, just none of these things seem healthy. It seems like you're taking away the very thing that is the joy of accomplishment, which is a sense of agency and moving through the world towards a goal that is your own and that you've established. But I, you know, I appreciated that she was there at every performance, even if it meant standing in the back of the theater for hours after a very long day of working on her feet.
- [47:19]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now for a quick break.
- [47:21]
Podcast Host
I want to tell you about Suvie. It's so cool.
- [47:24]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Suvie S U V I E It's a way you can feed your family at home without any planning, any prepping, or any exhausting cleanup.
- [47:33]
Podcast Host
Have I gotten that across? How great is that?
- [47:36]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
It's a smart countertop oven and it's a flexible new meal delivery service. So that's what SUVI is. And now they have Suvi kitchen robots. It's got a built in refrigeration so you can set up dinner in the morning and Suvi keeps it cold until it's actually time to cook, which you can schedule. So you don't even have to be home to start it. You just do this tap to cook technology. You can prep dinner in a couple of minutes. You load the meals into the sous vide cooking pans, tap the card to your appliance and set what time you want the food to be ready. How great is that? It's like living in the Jetsons. And the chef crafted meals are delivered.
- [48:16]
Podcast Host
Right to the door.
- [48:17]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So you can choose from over 50 meals. They have new options added each week. We did a salmon and rice. The meals are delicious. And SUV kitchen robots fit the counter and they have 15 cook modes.
- [48:31]
Podcast Host
They have air fry, they've slow cook, the Whole thing.
- [48:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I mean, I'm not even advanced enough to understand how many options there are. And There is a 100 day risk free trial, so give it a try. Go to suvi.comhumans to get 16 free meals when you order. That's s u v I e.com humans save time and eat better with Suvi. You guys know that I am not like, it's not that I'm into vitamins because I think if you have an incredible rich and varied diet and you're so good about everything and you don't have any deficiencies, then you don't need them. But I, it turns out, need them. So I like to try them. And I want to tell you about nature's Sunshine Brain Edge, which is, you know, like for people who have brain fog, for example, if you get to a certain age and you're like, I cannot. Where is, where is what's happening there? This is a great vitamin. So I do reach for coffee constantly, but I cannot do that all day. It, it makes me too jittery. It's too much. It has an afternoon crash. So I like this Nature Sunshine Brain Edge to just get a little yummy boost. Nootropic botanicals help you with staying focused. It promotes recall and mental stamina. And it delivers smooth, sustained energy because of the yerba mate, which is a natural caffeine. So you don't have to fight through that foggy and lethargic feeling. Ignite your mental performance. With Brain Edge, Nature Sunshine is offering 20% off your first order plus free shipping. Go to naturesunshine.com and use the Code Humans at checkout.
- [50:20]
Podcast Host
That's the code.
- [50:21]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Humansaturesunshine.com when you hear stories of great.
- [50:26]
Podcast Host
Athletes, like a lot of times I think the, you know, the parent was like practicing with them for hours and hours and hours and it starts to feel like, was that okay?
- [50:39]
Susan Dominus
Yeah. Well, Andre Agassiz book Open is such an incredible indictment.
- [50:42]
Podcast Host
I didn't read it.
- [50:43]
Susan Dominus
It's, it's, it's a very extreme case of, you know, a near abusive parent taking raw material and making a tremendous athlete out of him against his own will. Really, you know, and, you know, that's, that's one of the things that I also talk about in the book. Like there are some parents who clearly, clearly managed to, you know, elicit high performance from kids who were reluctant or, or did extraordinary things with their children. You know, the kinds of parents who have their kids up at 6 in the morning doing calisthenics, you know, or practicing their instruments before they go to school. But it's not like you can look at those stories and say like, oh, now I too will be the kind of parent who gets my kids up at 6 in the morning to do calisthenics. Like either you are or you're not. And if you're not, you, it's going to be pretty hard to pull that off. You know, I have. There's my. One of my favorite quotes in the book is from a guy named Dan Belsky who we were just making conversation and he said, you know, if you think it's hard to change your child, try changing yourself, you know, into the person who could change a child. You know, like that's very hard to do. Now you're really looking at, you know, you understand how hard this, this. If your kid's not like gritty and conscientiousness. Are you single handedly going to make your child that way?
- [51:53]
Podcast Host
I mean, I, I did say we were going to wake up and do yoga every morning for just 10 minutes. And I've been saying it every year for 18 years and we've never done it. And I'm literally like, I can't believe it's. All this time has gone by, I keep putting it off.
- [52:10]
Susan Dominus
Well, even Ron Lieber wrote this wonderful book called the Unspoiled Child. Is that what it was called? And he, I love his idea that you tell your kid that like a third goes into savings and a third goes to charity and a third goes for spending. And I try to do that with my kids. And you will not be surprised to hear that I failed. Why? Because I can't do with my own finances. You know what I mean? Like, I just, I wish that I were that kind of person who was like super organized and you know, intentional and you know, really like mapped things out. But I, I'm kind of not, you know, I did have like another takeaway. I forgot to say.
- [52:41]
Podcast Host
Tell me your other takeaway.
- [52:43]
Susan Dominus
I think the other one was that these were parents who were not afraid to let their children do something very, very hard. And it could have been something as intense as like, I want to desegregate this high school. I want to be one of three kids. Well, you know, Marilyn Holl, if you didn't know she'd be only one of three when she arrived at Tallahassee High School, Leon High School. But she knew that she wanted to be in the first class of black kids who went to this massive white school in Tallahassee. And her parents Were not that excited about it. Like they knew it was going to be hell. It wasn't usually often the impetus came from the parents who wanted to really help progress happen by encouraging their children to do this. But they let her do it, you know, and it was awful. It was truly searing and awful. And I don't know if she would say she was glad she did it or not, but it definitely helped shape her into the unbelievably steely and fierce person that she became. And then even something as minor as Sarah True as a 13 year old wanting to swim the length of the lake in her hometown, her parents were dreading it because they were convinced that she wouldn't succeed, that she wouldn't even make it across. They had like a family member drive around the lake so they could pick her up when she needed to stop. And instead she broke the town record for women. And it still stands. It's kind of an incredible story. It really shaped her. So, you know, I think you can't be afraid. Afraid of watching your kids struggle, afraid of watching your kid fail. It's part of life and they may.
- [54:02]
Podcast Host
Surprises and it's painful.
- [54:05]
Susan Dominus
It is painful. It is painful.
- [54:08]
Podcast Host
But that's our. We can. I like to remember how much pain we've incurred over these years of, of just being alive. Whether it's been. You've been lucky and it hasn't been big pee pain but those moments when you just were in high school and sobbing, everybody had them.
- [54:28]
Susan Dominus
Yeah.
- [54:29]
Podcast Host
And it's just like remembering that those were temporary and just remembering that they were necessary feelings to have experience so that you don't just like show up as an adult never having experienced them.
- [54:41]
Susan Dominus
But it's still hard. I know. And your fear, like they smell your fear. Right. Like you have to show them that big emotion. That is something I'm sure you talk about. Like you have to show kids don't be afraid of your big feelings. Like those big feelings are actually natural. And I mean that was something that a friend of Marilyn's said about her mother, which. Or maybe Marilyn, Marilyn said it about her mother. Fear was not her thing. I love that line. And you know, you never want to be more nervous for your child than your child is herself. You never have one of those like bigger emotions and you want them to feel your internal confidence in, in the child.
- [55:16]
Podcast Host
I think so. I culturally we've sometimes think of siblings as these. These, you know, like the oldest is this, the middle child is this. Or the youngest is this. And this is my successful one. And this is my one who's going to take care of me. And this is, you know, all these sort of cliches and, and one of the things that was interesting about this book was the dynamic of the siblings themselves. Lift each other up to expectations and opportunities that maybe have nothing to do with anybody but the siblings, or maybe it is the family dynamic and the culture. But I wanted to just get into that a little bit.
- [55:56]
Susan Dominus
Yeah, I mean, it is amazing how ingrained the notion of birth order and personality is. And the best research that we have, and people hate hearing this, but it's true that we have on, on, on birth order is that the oldest children, they may be the most conscientious relative to the younger siblings, but if you put them out into the world in a workplace, they're not necessarily the most conscientious relative to everybody else around them. Like, it doesn't actually make you, you know, more conscientious than you would have been if you were the third child.
- [56:29]
Podcast Host
Right. It's your, it's your household dynamic, the context here.
- [56:33]
Susan Dominus
Yes, exactly. And like in my household, I'm the youngest of three and I definitely am more quiet there. And I'm, you know, no, I'm not the person like making the big plan for Mom's 80th birthday. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not the boss that way. You know, I'm not the boss in my real life either. But I definitely think I have more agency in my real life than I do in my family life in some ways for sure. But there is this weird thing that does happen, which is they really do consistently find that the oldest child has the highest IQ in the family or is the most academically successful. And there's all kinds of reasons for why that is. But I do think that because of that there are other kinds of trickle down things that happen. And that is interesting. And in the True Family, Sarah talks about how her older siblings were such academic stars that she really wanted to carve out a space and something that she knew they wouldn't touch, which was sports. And that athletes are overrepresented in our over youngest children are overrepresented in elite sports, that kind of thing.
- [57:31]
Podcast Host
It's so interesting. And I, I do, I do think the, the higher IQ thing annoys people a little bit. And I'm a younger sibling, so it always annoyed me. But, but it is true. For whatever reason, we can come up with many of them. Even in my own household, like thinking about the care with which we used Language and blocks and playing, and we were just more careful about sleep and just all the things.
- [58:03]
Susan Dominus
All the things. Yeah. It's one on one and it's new and everything is fascinating. You have more time than when you. Than you breathe, too. Yeah. There's a great study that looked. It found that even by age, like, if you take the. If you test the cognitive skills of the oldest child at age one and then you test the cognitive skills of the younger children at the same age, it still holds. So it's not this idea that, like, the oldest child is teaching the younger one and therefore they're solidifying their. Their knowledge and, you know, teaching itself is enhanced. No, it's just there's something going on with the attention that the parents are paying the first child.
- [58:35]
Podcast Host
No, I remember reading and it's like parody. So if you have six kids, on the other hand, you hear plenty of stories of, you know, exceptions.
- [58:46]
Susan Dominus
These are always, you know, on average, they're.
- [58:47]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yes, yes.
- [58:49]
Susan Dominus
Like, it's never. This is not.
- [58:50]
Podcast Host
I'd like to think we're exceptions. Maybe I actually shouldn't say that.
- [58:56]
Susan Dominus
That's a terrible thing to say. Well, no, I think. I think that maybe we had. I sometimes wonder if I had more hustle. My. Everybody in my family actually had a lot of hustle, but I think being a journalist does require, like, kind of a lot of it. And I think maybe wanting to prove myself as the youngest of three and feeling, you know, you are always, even if you were not cognitively, like, you know, objectively the dumbest one in the family, you actually are, as the youngest child, the dumbest one in the family because you've been around less.
- [59:22]
Podcast Host
You're just the youngest.
- [59:23]
Susan Dominus
You're just the youngest. You have fewer references, you've heard less, you can do less. You know, you've been around less. So I think sometimes there's some catching up. I mean, we're. Now I'm really generalizing based on nothing, but. So, yeah, that's what we know about birth order effects. And yeah, it's complicated, actually.
- [59:40]
Podcast Host
And the only other thing that I wanted to get into is, like, when older siblings are given appropriate room to mentor younger siblings, like, not raise them. Although I did let my older daughter. I was basically, like, watching your sister, and every time it seems like she might have to go to the bathroom, just bring her right to that little portable potty. Because I just wanted to, like, not be, like, so focused. And I definitely think she ultimately potty trained her younger sibling well, you know, it's Funny.
- [60:17]
Susan Dominus
My brother taught me how to ride a bike. And when I think about a lot of my milestones, like passing the third crib test at summer camp, he was the person who was there really cheering me on. Yeah, that's really sweet, because by the time I came around, you know, my parents had already taught two kids how to ride a bike. Like, they'd done that, been there, done that, you know, and it was really. And that's just. That's a really happy memory for me.
- [60:37]
Podcast Host
And I'm sure for him. What a cool feeling to have the skill set to teach you how to do something.
- [60:43]
Susan Dominus
I wonder if he even remembers. I should ask him, actually. I would love for you to ask.
- [60:47]
Podcast Host
Him and tell me.
- [60:48]
Susan Dominus
I would, because I think it.
- [60:49]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Feel it.
- [60:50]
Podcast Host
I would feel. I think. I mean, I didn't have any younger siblings, but I would feel probably so good if there was something I could offer.
- [60:59]
Susan Dominus
I know, I know.
- [61:01]
Podcast Host
But how. What are. What do you think? What did you observe? Let's just say in these families that. That we might be able to consider when we're kind of trying to decide how much is, like asking, like, parentifying the older kids versus just giving them more responsibilities because they are capable.
- [61:21]
Susan Dominus
I do think it's really. I think in general, kids today are not given enough responsibilities that are unpaid. Do you know what I mean? In other words, you're going to do this because it's the right thing to do, not because someone is paying you. I'm a big believer in having kids, by the way. Like, you know, if you've got a power washer and a beloved family friend needs some power washing, like, no, don't let them pay you. Do it because you're a good neighbor and you love them and they've carpooled you around for the past five years and say, thank you very much, you know, So I think it's just great for kids to have that responsibility. And, you know, I do think, like, you know, Bishop Holifield told me that he remembered his father. The only time his father ever. And of course, we do not believe in corporal punishment, but the only time his father ever hit it.
- [62:00]
Podcast Host
Hit.
- [62:00]
Susan Dominus
Only time he ever hit him was when he didn't bring his younger siblings home from school and left a huge impression on him. And I think he really did feel responsible to some degree for especially Marilyn's wellbeing and helping her chart a path. And he was very proud of her also, you know, he just thought she was, you know, that she hung the moon and was so bright and so beautiful and interesting. And so he really did a lot of path clearing for her in the world, I would say. And so I think that that kind of thing is healthy. Yeah, walk your sister home, you know, take a little responsibility. And, you know, in the McGuire household, they had an older brother named Alfred who went to college before his younger siblings did. And he absolutely took joy in, you know, standing into that role of helping them navigate a big state school when, you know, they didn't have tons of experience in family, experience with that. And, you know, I think it was great for them. It was not great for him. He was the first person in the family to go to college. And we now know how hard a position that puts a young person in, you know, to be low income, first generation. The schools back then didn't have the kind of supports they do now for kids who are like that. So. But I, you know, Mary Murguia or Janet Murguia, I should say, the first time she talked to me about her brother Alfred, she teared up. She just felt so much gratitude for what he had done for the younger siblings. And, I mean, that's a really beautiful thing.
- [63:18]
Podcast Host
Where did you see or not see jealousy?
- [63:23]
Susan Dominus
So I. I think that, that if I'm totally honest with you, I think that that subject was, like, very hot to the touch. You know, I. One of these I did in the book is I talked a lot about the family experiences of the researchers in the book. Like, why were they researching what they were researching? Because they had some family drama themselves that was motivating.
- [63:42]
Podcast Host
Oh, research is me.
- [63:43]
Susan Dominus
Search. Yes, research is me. Julia Leonard, you know, from the Julia Leonard Learning Lab at Yale. She works on, like, effort and grit. And I spoke to both her and. And she's moved on from that into just more like fostering autonomy in children and that kind of thing. But she. And curiosity. But, you know, I would say that she and her sister, you know, I think her sister did. Her sister became a dramaturg and then like, basically a cultural arts programmer and is, like, very happy in her career. But she did talk kind of frankly to me about. It was a duality. It was that, on the one hand, everybody loved Julia. Julia was good at everything. She was good at magic tricks. She was good at, like, palm reading. She was good at ice skating, you know, and, and she was very sociable and. And also got incredible grades at school. But, you know, that kind of person that it's often driven by a kind of. It can be perfectionism, it can be a little bit of anxiety that everything has to be perfect, that you have to be the best. And so Julia, I think, you know, Sarah, her sister, both was honest with me about sometimes being jealous, but also thinking, like, kind of glad I don't have that motor, you know, like, I, I'm a little bit relieved that that's not, I'm not tormented by the. I don't have to be the best. Like, that's a relief also. So that came up. Nancy Siegel's another researcher who is a fraternal twin. And her, you know, I don't think she's, she and her sister are extremely close, and I don't think she would ever use the word jealous. But her sister had a couple of lucky breaks along the way that I think were frustrating to Nancy. She's, you know, tremendously professionally successful now. It all evens out in the end. But I think that there were things about being a fraternal twin for her growing up that led to sometimes unfair outcomes. Like, Nancy was very chatty and very social, and her sister was a little bit more subdued and then somehow ended up in the, like, they both tested the same, but her sister ended up in like the gifted class or the more gifted classroom. You know, things like that that were very frustrating. And even in the Graf household, I would say Lauren talked about resenting her brother because she considered him to be so smart. But with that came, like, I think what she thought was a certain smugness. You know, I think the jealousy and the rivalry, that stuff is really primal and really powerful and to sort of.
- [65:52]
Podcast Host
Weave it all together. Where do the Bronte sisters land there?
- [65:58]
Susan Dominus
Well, I, I, so I'm, you know, I, for the same reason, honestly, from, for the same reason I was obsessed with these high achieving families. From the time I was very young, I was obsessed with the Brontes. Not just because I loved their writing, but I, like, I was the only kid, I think, who wasn't just like, oh my God, Wuthering Heights. It's so beautiful and moody and dramatic, but was also like, how is it that all three of those sisters were so extraordinary? And meeting Anne Bronte was such a, I mean, she is such a, she's also so extraordinary. I mean, not quite as literary or innovative, but she was really a trailblazer for her time. And I think that they had all of the elements that you see in a lot of these families. They were, they had an overcomer for a father. They had competition among them, for sure. Charlotte and her brother Branwell were very competitive and they, they, they used to write these magazines in which they would sort of like write digs about each other's fictitious characters. And it was very witty, but very scathing. But then they had incredible collaboration. I mean, we wouldn't know who the Brontes were if Charlotte hadn't, you know, stumbled on some of Emily's poetry and thought like, oh, hey, if we get all our poetry together, we could actually publish a. Not a volume of poetry. And they turned to Anne and they.
- [67:09]
Podcast Host
Were like, do you have anything?
- [67:10]
Susan Dominus
And she gave them it. She gave them some of her poetry. And they basically were like, yeah, that'll do, you know, and she wasn't. She was no Emily Bronte for poetry, but she was talented. And so it was the collaborative effort that they were. Their. Their work was literally bound up with each other, you know, in a volume that. That introduced them to the world under a pseudonym, under three different pseudonyms. But they were extremely collaborative and their work does reflect each other's work. And I bet there was competition. You know, Anne wrote a novel called Agnes Gray that was about a governess. And it was the first time that a story had really been a novel had been written about a governess in that way. And it was like, pretty good. But it didn't get published. And then here comes Charlotte and writes Jane Eyre from the first person. So she took the idea of the governess and turned it around and used a first person take and made it even more intimate. And, you know, she gets the credit for like, you know, writing about this, like, very humble figure and making her a great character in literature. So I don't know what those conversations were like about that in that household, but they clearly influenced each other and they, you know, the professional element of their career, it wasn't like somebody else discovered them. No, Charlotte made that happen. So I think that's fascinating.
- [68:20]
Podcast Host
It is fascinating.
- [68:35]
Susan Dominus
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