← Raising Good Humans
Loading summary
Transcript190 lines
- [00:00]
Professor Darby Saxby
We see this in the States. Like, even when a man has paid paternity leave, he doesn't take it Right. Or he takes the absolute minimum. And we still have this kind of ideal worker expectation. So I think that's changing a lot. Like, if you ask young men what's important to you and what are you looking for in a career, contrary to what the manosphere is saying, I think a lot of Gen Z men are actually saying, I want flexibility, I want to be home with my kids. So they're kind of voting with their feet. Like, I think our, our approach to career has changed a lot because remote work and, you know, we, like the younger generations are experiencing work very differently than I think our generation did.
- [00:45]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [00:46]
Professor Darby Saxby
And so I think that's kind of good. And that is also changing how dads show up, because if you're home and not commuting, you have a whole different relationship with dad.
- [00:57]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [00:57]
Professor Darby Saxby
You know.
- [00:58]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Happy Father's Day weekend. I wanted to share this very special episode with Professor Darby Saxby, author of the new book, dad How Fatherhood Shapes Men's Lives. Because it does. And there are a lot of fathers here today and people who are around fathers a lot. So send this to a father that you love. And happy Father's Day. I'm Dr. Elisa Pressman, Developmental psychologist, New York Times best selling author, associate clinical professor at Icahn School of Medicine, and the host of Raising Good Humans podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I just want to show everybody this galley. Dad Brain the New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives by Darby Saxby. Okay, Professor Saxby, I want to talk about dads, and we are going to honor them properly because to date, what is the research been on? Dad brains.
- [01:59]
Professor Darby Saxby
Very inadequate. Yeah. And that was one of the things that motivated me to write this book. So, you know, when we think about parenting research, and you know this because this is your world, most of the studies are focused on moms, attachment studies, bonding studies. Almost all of those were done with moms and kids.
- [02:17]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [02:18]
Professor Darby Saxby
So there are just a lot of gaps in the literature. And I think our appreciation of fathers kind of lags behind because we just don't have the science to kind of back up their importance.
- [02:29]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I'm remembering in graduate school, we were doing like a little seminar and our professor said, you know, she liked to say controversial things and see, then have us all talk amongst ourselves. And she said, do dads matter? That was obviously a long time ago, and of course they matter, but I would like to orient this conversation around why they matter and what's happening to their brains and what their contributions are and all of the work that you do.
- [03:00]
Professor Darby Saxby
Definitely, yeah. And I. And so I'm curious, when she asked that question, what did you say?
- [03:05]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Well, the response from the class, I'm like, in my defense, I was not a mother at the time, and I said, they matter if there isn't a mother, or they matter if the mother isn't able to provide the. The care and connection because of something that she's going through. But do they matter, like, on their own, just as a dad? I don't know that I was in a place to say.
- [03:35]
Professor Darby Saxby
And so now you would disagree.
- [03:37]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Now I would. You know, I'm so careful because, like, if somebody's listening who has no. Who's, you know, who's raising their child without a father, I feel like you still probably need to find male figures in that child's life who really, like, is there for them. And then I think it's totally fine. But I think that a father figure matters.
- [04:01]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes, I'm with you. And I think the science would support that. And, you know, this is one of the themes in the book. I think one of the coolest and most unique things about being human is that we are alloparental. So we evolved as cooperative breeders. We raise kids in community. We, you know, know how to take care of each other's babies. And that makes us different from a lot of other mammals where, you know, if something happens to mom in sort of the early weeks or months of a baby's life, that's sort of the end of that baby's life. And we have this flexibility where caregivers can step in when mom is absent, when she's distracted, or even when she's present and just needs a break. Like, we tag team. And I think that makes us more resilient. It makes us more flexible. And so I think fathers are clearly a key part of that kind of alloparental band of humans. But they also make their own really unique contributions. And like you said, like, having a male figure. Right. Like, just the fact that they're male provides a different kind of experience, you know, whether you're raising a boy or a girl. Right. They can be a different kind of
- [05:16]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
model, and they communicate differently.
- [05:19]
Professor Darby Saxby
And they communicate differently.
- [05:20]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [05:20]
Professor Darby Saxby
Like, they bring these kind of special attributes. And, you know, not every father parents in the same way, just like not every mother parents in the same way. So there are totally cuddly dads and they're super active moms. But we know in general dads tend to engage in more vigorous kind of exploratory play. They're kind of testing kids boundaries. They're the parent that will often, you know, throw a baby up in the air and catch them, you know, play chase and tickle, encourage a kid to climb higher, higher on the slide. And that is really good for kids, building confidence. And I think when you think about kids anxiety and sort of the, you know, the way that parenting has changed and we don't always let kids have as many opportunities to explore and get hurt and try new things, dads actually can play, I think, a really valuable role.
- [06:19]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I, I'm only smiling because I'm thinking about how I would not go to the playground when the kids were little because I was just like, I'm gonna spend the entire time being like, wait,
- [06:30]
Professor Darby Saxby
no, don't do that.
- [06:31]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Get down. And I knew that that was not okay, but I absolutely couldn't change my behavior. So I was like, I'm just not a playground person. Yeah. Their dad was so much more able to tolerate the things that I couldn't tolerate.
- [06:47]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. And I think that's really the key is sort of like whatever the balance of attributes within a parenting couple or you know, whatever parenting situation that, that kids get different kinds of experiences from different kinds of caregivers. So you know, maybe you're the more vigilant caregiver who's more safety conscious. And that's a role that a lot of moms play. But they're also getting that kind of like more physical, active opportunity for play. And, and so that is just like giving kids more input and more opportunities and more chances to learn. And so kind of that in and of itself I think is really valuable for kids.
- [07:28]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
So I want to get into this transition to parenthood and dad brain. I'm just remembering also which I did tell the father of my children that when a dad helps with homework in middle school, girls in particular tend to do better. So I, I think it's. That goes back to like the, the type of communication or the style. Right.
- [07:53]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. And there's, I mean that is a research finding. There's also work on dads reading to kids that that's really good for kids forging literacy. There's work suggesting that when dads are more involved at bedtime, kids actually sleep better.
- [08:09]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
So I mean, let's say that again.
- [08:12]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes. When dads are more involved at bedtime, the whole family actually sleeps better. And it may not even be that dads are doing any magic thing. It's just that dad's presence is relieving stress on the whole family system and going back to the sort of vigilance piece and anxiety and monitoring. Dads can also potentially just be a more relaxed presence. So there was a big pew study that just looked at different parenting attitudes and you know, moms were much more likely to say they worried about their kids. Dads were more likely to say that they wanted their kids to have freedom. So it's just those kinds of differences and attitudes that can again, just present kids with different opportunities.
- [09:00]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
My lips get dry. One skin helps your lips feel moist, but it also has sunscreen. So I have a beautiful oneskin lip balm that has a little pink color. It changes the game. Why do I love one skin apart from the great products? It's so easy. It's affordable, easy to apply. I don't like a hundred steps in my skincare routine. I like to wash my face. I need some moisturizer and it needs to have some UV protection because I'm in California. Plus it's summer. They also have another great summer option which is a tinted moisturizer. Born over a decade of longevity research, 1 skins OSO1 peptide is proven to target visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. For a limited time, try One Skin with 15% off using code RGH. One Skin Co RGH that is 15% off. One Skin with the code RGH. After you purchase, just tell them that I sent you there. I have two dogs, I've got two children, two stepchildren and I myself have been known to get some mud on a rug. That's why I love tumble, because tumble rugs are totally washable and they also are spill proof with a non toxic proprietary something. It makes it so that if you do spill on it, you can wipe it right up. Or if your dog has an accident, you can stick it in the washing machine. It comes right out. If you want machine washable rugs that are made better for a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off plus free shipping@tumbleliving.com humans that's T U M B L E living dot forward slash humans. And after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. So you can support the show by saying raising good humans podcast plus you get 10% off. Okay, so let's talk about this dad brain. Like what's actually happening to a dad's brain because we talk a lot about mom's brains. But there's so much research that you've done that I think is pretty exciting.
- [11:10]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. And I think that's right, that when a woman becomes a mother, we see this totally visible transformation. Right. Assuming it's a biological pregnancy. And we don't always appreciate that it can be transformational for men as well. And so I've done work on how men's brains change from pregnancy into the first year postpartum scanning men in the lab before their child's birth and then after. And we find that men are losing gray matter volume, which is actually, as you probably know, has also been found in new moms. They're losing that gray matter volume kind of at a different magnitude and in slightly different places. But it's a very sort of similar pattern where we think the brain is remodeling to streamline and make connections more efficient. And so, although it sounds bad, I always caveat this, that you're losing gray matter volume. You are developing this kind of more efficient, you know, lean and mean edited brain.
- [12:21]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I want to expand on that because it's also that same thing of mom brain as a negative that I think is a misrepresentation. So, yes, let's talk more about what that really means in terms of that development.
- [12:33]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. I think people hear about brain changes, and they immediately kind of adopt this deficit model that, like, mommy brain. Is this stigmatized, Like, I'm forgetting my keys. Yeah, exactly. But, like, if you look at animal models, new moms are amazing at retrieving their pups often who are buried. Like, if you're thinking about a rodent under layers of bedding. I know it sounds. But this, like, pup retrieval is a. Is a model that's been used for a lot of different kinds of studies of rodent mothering. And so it's like, by smell and by kind of like your. Your spatial navigation memory, you can find your pups. And so that's like. That's rodent mothering.
- [13:17]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [13:17]
Professor Darby Saxby
And. And so you have this really keen sensitivity and memory for the things that are salient to the parenting experience.
- [13:27]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And your. Your car keys are not.
- [13:29]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. So it's almost like your brain is maybe filtering out what doesn't matter as much. I mean, car keys matter, but not as much as where your baby is.
- [13:40]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [13:40]
Professor Darby Saxby
And you are paying more attention to the things that will keep your new offspring thriving. And. And so my hunch is that we're seeing similar reasons for that change in dads. So they're also Losing volume in parts of the brain that we call the mentalizing network. So these are the parts of the brain that think about other people's minds, that engage in social cognition that we think of as kind of our platform for empathy. And it seems like when dads are changing more in those areas, I found that they are reporting more time with their babies, more enjoyment of their babies, more motivation to be with their babies. So all of these things are kind of like moving in step with the sort of emerging father child relationship.
- [14:35]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
The brain is both more vulnerable at this point and more flourishable. Yes, if that's a word.
- [14:42]
Professor Darby Saxby
I really liked how you said that. Yeah, yeah. Like I always say, it's like any time of change is like a time of opportunity.
- [14:49]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [14:50]
Professor Darby Saxby
And also risk, also vulnerability.
- [14:53]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
How does that shift our. You know, like, if you are currently in process right now, like you are a new father or you're thinking about this, what. What kind of changes? What kinds of potential is there?
- [15:08]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, yeah. So, like, as you're incubating that new parental brain, right, like, there's learning opportunity, like your ability to be sensitive, to be empathetic, to be tuned to the signals of your baby. Like, all of that is getting totally honed. And that can also come with some mental health downsides. So in my lab, the same study that I just told you about, where we found that dads who lost more gray matter volume had better attachment bonding motivation to spend time with the infant, we also found those dads were reporting increasingly worse sleep across the transition to parenthood. They were reporting more depression and anxiety. So we controlled for their prenatal depression and anxiety. We found, you know, the dads whose brains changed the most were at risk of having more depression and anxiety after birth. So it's like there is this cost of caregiving, but I think there's also these benefits to how you relate to other people, how connected you can be to your own child. And I think a lot of moms would agree with this. Right? It's like it's this magical transition. You fall in love with this other human, but it can be isolating identity. Yes. Who am I? Right. And I think to whatever extent, dads are really stepping up and taking an active role, they're also experiencing similar costs and benefits.
- [16:48]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Do you think that if you had done this study 50 years ago, you would have seen the same changes in the brain? Or is this partly a function of dads today being more engaged?
- [17:01]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, it's such a good question. I'm thinking about what the, like, 60s MRI machine would have looked like it probably would have taken up like a whole building. I don't think we would have seen the same changes. And so we have seen this transformation in how men are showing up as parents and how they're thinking about parenthood. So millennial dads, Gen Z dads, they are parenting in a totally different way than like silent generation, boomer generation did.
- [17:35]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [17:36]
Professor Darby Saxby
And you know, what my work really has found, and this is something I tried to emphasize in the book, is that these changes come online as we get experience, as we get practice. So it's not just that like every dad is gonna have just comes out dynamic brain. Right. It's like we care first and then
- [17:57]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
we adapt because the act of caregiving is building or transforming this brain.
- [18:04]
Professor Darby Saxby
Exactly. That like, we are shaped by our care. So I think a lot of the time, and I think this is true with kind of gender stereotypes, like, there's this idea that moms are just born, like, knowing how to take care of a baby.
- [18:21]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [18:22]
Professor Darby Saxby
That they have these skills that it's almost like this trait. And I think it's really more like a state. It's kind of like we can all learn this, we can all adapt to becoming great caregivers, but we kind of have to give ourselves the opportunity to practice and to get to know our kid.
- [18:42]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And so if over time it was, it is just like women are expected to and therefore do all of this caregiving. Their brains are getting shaped through these repeated acts of caregiving. And now dads, in their repeated acts of caregiving are building these connections, which when you were saying that, you know, the risk is also more higher rates of depression and things that probably a lot of moms recognize. I'm wondering if relationships overall throughout the lifespan are such a predictor of longevity and health and mental health. Is this, like, powerful time where you're growing these connect connection skills? Like if we fast forward, are we exercising muscles? Are dads exercising muscles that are going to now allow them better, stronger connections?
- [19:40]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes, I think so. And I love that reframe. Right. Because it's kind of like by investing in our relationships, you know, it's hard, like, it's hard to take care of a really vulnerable child. But I think there is this long range payoff in terms of our social integration, our connection, our sense of legacy, our sense of reward. And so, you know, I did not want this book to just be bad news for dads.
- [20:08]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [20:08]
Professor Darby Saxby
It's not like your brain is changing in a way that's going to make you more depressed. It's that like, this is hard work and you have this future of having raised this person that you can hopefully be proud of. And you know, like, when you look at what really determines health and longevity in men and women, it's the quality of your relationships. And you know, I'm sure you know the Harvard grant study.
- [20:37]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of.
- [20:38]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, I talk about it in the book. Yeah, it's this like amazing, you know, long running study. I think it started in the 20s. They recruited Harvard undergrads alongside a community sample of inner city boys from Boston and they followed them into adulthood. And now they're actually following the grandkids. So like a lot of these guys are like a hundred years old. You know, many have passed on, but they have found kind of consistently it is not how much money you make, how much professional status you gain. It is, do you have a happy marriage, are you happy in your family relationships? That seems to determine how, how long
- [21:19]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
these guys live and the quality of life satisfied.
- [21:22]
Professor Darby Saxby
Exactly like that. Sort of like satisfying old age.
- [21:25]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
You know what's so funny? It's like, and this happens sometimes with research where there's like, you need grants, you need evidence, you need multi year studies. In this case, it's the longest, I think. The longest one.
- [21:38]
Professor Darby Saxby
Longest running.
- [21:39]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Longest running.
- [21:40]
Professor Darby Saxby
One study of human development, I think.
- [21:42]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
But then you say it out loud and it's like, yeah, that makes sense, right?
- [21:47]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, it's intuitive.
- [21:49]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Over a hundred years, this study.
- [21:50]
Professor Darby Saxby
But it's interesting because it makes sense to us. But it's also like culturally, it doesn't line up. Yes, like a lot of young people, and especially young men are getting this message that you need to, you know, chase wealth and status. You know, the manosphere is all about like, relationships are disposable, you should work on your muscles. And that's just the opposite of what we know about kind of like what makes the good life.
- [22:21]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And that was the title of Robert Waldecker, who's running that study now, his book, the Good Life.
- [22:26]
Professor Darby Saxby
Right, that's right.
- [22:27]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Typically you become a father while you're also trying to start your career in the kind of way that's, you know, where you have to show up a little bit more and really grind potentially. And yet it's also a time where all this investment in this early relationship matters so much. So what did you see in your research about kind of all the. There's so many different directions that that could go in. So just all of it.
- [22:55]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. I think it's really hard for men, especially because they are socialized to have more breadwinner pressure. So they might feel like I cannot take time off, for example, after a baby's born. Even though that might be the right thing to do for developing this relationship, it just, it comes with too much of a career penalty and that's going to be stigmatized. And in the book I talk about, there are some international models of incentivizing men to take paternity leave through basically like use it or lose it programs. Like there are these nudge programs where if you like, the couple gets a certain amount of leave and some is earmarked for dad and if dad doesn't take it, it goes away. So I think programs like that can actually be really helpful because a lot of the time, and we see this in the States, like even when a man has paid paternity leave, he doesn't take it right or he takes the absolute minimum. And we still have this kind of ideal worker expectation. So I think that's changing a lot. Like if you ask young men what's important to you and what are you looking for in a career, contrary to what the manosphere is saying, I think a lot of Gen Z men are actually saying, I want flexibility, I want to be home with my kids. So they're kind of voting with their feet. Like, I think our approach to career has changed a lot because remote work and you know, we like the younger generations are experiencing work very differently than I think our generation did.
- [24:33]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [24:34]
Professor Darby Saxby
And so I think that's kind of good. And that is also changing how dads show up. Because if you're home and not commuting, you have a whole different relationship with. Dinner time.
- [24:45]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah. You know, what would you say to a young dad right now? And what would you say to a young mom who, by the way, I don't know why I keep saying young. I like acting like we're 180 years old. But new season two. Yes. A new dad, a new dad and a new mom. And what are some things that a new mom can do? Like, I remember back in 2007, there was like dads in the cohort that I was in all were doing the five S's. I think they were the Harvey carp because it was so followable and it was like very action oriented, like swaddling and swinging and shushing and all of the things. And I remember just all the dads kind of around our group of friends were, that was like they, they had a concrete suggestion and they took it on, and they were like, I'm gonna do this. And I think that just probably. Cause it was, like, actionable, made sense, and you didn't need to be feeding or totally. But what are some of the things that are helpful to sort of engage dads?
- [25:49]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, great question. Yeah. My husband was all about the swaddle. Like, he got so good at doing this, like, perfectly tight swaddle. Like, where are the baby's arms? Like, will she have any sensation in her fingers when she gets out of this? And I think you're totally right. It's like that feeling of, I can be useful and I know what to do. And I think that's where a lot of dads are kind of floundering in those early months. Because it's like, mom has this head start of, like, if it's been a biological pregnancy, like, she feels like she already knows the baby in some way. And a lot of men report that they have a hard time early on because I'm like, an appendage, you know, Like, I don't have a clear role to play. So I think this is one of those things where it's really helpful for couples to talk it out before the baby comes and try to think about, you know, what is the mom feeling like she's going to need. But then also not for dad to wait for mom to ask for help.
- [26:50]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
That's a big, huge proactive.
- [26:52]
Professor Darby Saxby
I think that's huge.
- [26:53]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [26:54]
Professor Darby Saxby
And like, if you feel inept, if you feel like you don't know what to do, the only way to get better is to practice. It's like, if you don't know how to throw a baseball, you don't just, like, leave the team, Right? Like, you get coaching, you practice a bunch. You, you know, you go to the field and. And so, like, dads need to build that confidence. And I think the more the can work together to create opportunities for dads to, like, have a solo afternoon with the baby, like, be in charge of, you know, you take all the nighttime diaper changings, whatever it is, that kind of makes sense for their situation. I think it's like one of those things where, like, the only way out is through, right?
- [27:38]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And you just take it on. And if, you know, one of the things that comes up so often is I was doing Saturday and Sunday mornings, let's say, just to lean into stereotypes, I was doing the mornings on the weekend. But the, you know, my baby. And this would have to be an older baby that no, you know, is really able to communicate this. But basically they want mom and they don't want dad. And so dad then feels helpless and is like, okay. And then, yeah, they. They give up.
- [28:07]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah.
- [28:08]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And yeah. And. Or mom is like, I got this. Like, maybe it's not said in as generous a way. Who knows?
- [28:15]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:16]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
But I think those times when even if your little one is like, no, I want mom to do it, to have the confidence to say, like, that's okay, you can want mom to do it and I'm still here and I love you and I'm going to keep going and not feel like I'm a failure would be. So it's of service to mom. It's of service to the baby in that relationship. And then you over time get so much more confident.
- [28:38]
Professor Darby Saxby
Totally. Yeah. And I think that can be really empowering for dads, is like, don't take it personally.
- [28:46]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [28:46]
Professor Darby Saxby
You know, kids are fickle. My daughter went through a huge only daddy phase and I found it demoralizing as a new mom. And I just had to realize, like, this is healthy. She's experimenting with relationships. And, you know, before I knew it, she was in an only mommy phase.
- [29:04]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And then did you wish for the only daddy feels alive?
- [29:07]
Professor Darby Saxby
Then I was like, oh, maybe, maybe dad could come back into the picture a little.
- [29:11]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [29:11]
Professor Darby Saxby
You know, but it's like kids are playing with boundaries and they're figuring out their relationships and so they will sort of like they will test and prefer different caregivers at different times. And I think that's a place where a lot of dads can get checked out. And I think moms can also unwittingly reinforce this dynamic. And so in the book, I talk about maternal gatekeeping.
- [29:35]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yes.
- [29:36]
Professor Darby Saxby
I don't want to be negative about moms who do it because I think it is frequently really well intentioned. And mom does feel like the expert in the kid. You know, she has longer maternity leave if she, you know, is breastfeeding. Like, there is an ease that she has with soothing the baby. And so it's easy to want to jump in and just be like, try it this way. You know, she prefers this blanket. But like, dads need to have their own style. And if it's kind of micromanaged by mom, I think it's like any, you know, like, workplace situation. It's like, you don't want a boss that that's telling you how to write an email. Right. Like, you need to have your own comfort level with what you're doing.
- [30:21]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
It's even the same as we would say in parent child relationships, like if you're micromanaging instead of scaffolding and setting free for autonomy support, you're not like it's well meaning, but it's maybe overbearing or controlling accidentally.
- [30:39]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. And I think dads can be complicit in this dynamic too. Like they can take the baby and then when baby cries, like come right back, you know, like, well, here.
- [30:49]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [30:49]
Professor Darby Saxby
And I mean I, you know, it's not easy, but sometimes moms just need to like leave the house.
- [30:56]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Like even if it's gonna be a mess, go for a walk.
- [30:59]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes. And just like make peace with the fact that your partner and baby are going to have to muddle through. Like it's uncomfortable.
- [31:07]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [31:08]
Professor Darby Saxby
But anytime we learn something new that's hard, we go through a certain amount of discomfort. So again, I think that's where pushing back on this is, this innate trait that moms have that dads don't is helpful. Because if dads feel like this is something I'm capable of learning and excelling at, they will hopefully feel more motivation to keep trying to foreign.
- [31:36]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
There is this phase of parenting where your life is very physical and many moms notice small but frustrating changes in their bodies during this time. Like after you had a baby, you're feeling like, okay, I'm going to start exercising and doing things for myself and moving. And then you jump and there's some bladder leaks. So now there's finally an over the counter solution. Solution that isn't just another pad or a pair of leak proof underwear. A solution that prevents leaks instead of just absorbing them. Which means no odor, no dampness, no discomfort or embarrassment. I'm talking about a vaginally inserted reusable device that supports your bladder from within to stop leaks in their tracks. Think of it as like a sports bra for your bladder, providing support from the inside during those moments of pressure, like when you jump, when you cough. No surgery, no prescription, and you don't even have to remove it to use the bathroom. Take this step to finally take care of yourself. Yresta is like nothing else out there and can finally provide you relief. Learn more about this amazing breakthrough trusted by over 50,000 women@euresta.com that's u r e s t a dot com. Can you talk a little bit about attachment relationships between fathers and children? Because now that you're talking about this, I realize, I think there is that tone of one like that we use and you said alloparenting so I kind of feel like you Teed me up for this. But what are the misunderstandings about those attachment relationships?
- [33:16]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, I think we often think about attachment as this, like a mother baby quality or phenomenon. And actually, there's a researcher I cite in the book, Pascal Vertica, who studied a lot of attachment dynamics, and one of his big findings is that toddlers have very similar levels of attachment to their moms as to their dads. So it's not the case that this is like a sole.
- [33:45]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Like a one person. Like, you gotta pick.
- [33:47]
Professor Darby Saxby
Exactly. And so it's actually really healthy to develop secure attachments to more than one caregiver. And I think, like, sometimes attachment parenting can kind of run with this idea of no separation from, you know, between mom and kid. And attachment parenting, to me, is totally different from what attachment theory.
- [34:08]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
It's. I feel. I feel it's irresponsible to name it that because they're unrelated. And it feels like, oh, this might be rooted in some deep, you know, developmental research, but it's not. Let's go there.
- [34:22]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes. No, it is totally. It is totally not what attachment theory says. So, you know, attachment theory, like, the way that you measure the security of a young child's attachment, as I'm sure you know, is through a paradigm called the strange situation. You bring kids into the lab, the mom or caregiver sort of introduces them to a stranger and then leaves. And you see how the baby reacts. And the babies who kind of lose it and cannot kind of handle that separation are actually considered to be anxiously attached. So I just think it's so interesting that we test this through separation. And yet, if you talk to the most hardcore attachment parents, they don't believe that mom and child should ever be separated.
- [35:10]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right. And then they don't have the opportunity for the reunion where they would have the repair of the connection.
- [35:17]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes.
- [35:17]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Which is how you build stronger attachment relationships.
- [35:21]
Professor Darby Saxby
Exactly. Yeah. So I've talked to attachment parents who don't think that they should ever hire a babysitter, for example, because that will somehow disturb the attachment relationship. But A, that's exhausting for the parents. So tiring. It's so tiring. And B, having a positive connection to a caregiver, a babysitter can be really good for kids.
- [35:46]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [35:47]
Professor Darby Saxby
So, you know, and. And I think similar with dads and kids, like, it's like, the more the merrier. Right. Like, kids are built to attach. Like, we evolved to be very good at bonding with caregivers, which is very smart of us, because we need intensive care to stay alive.
- [36:07]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [36:07]
Professor Darby Saxby
And so we kind of have this innate, you know, like, drive to seek proximity and care. And, you know, even if you think about, like, baby faces and how cute they are. Right. Like, we are built to just, like, bond.
- [36:22]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah. I'm even just picturing a baby face and feeling a little snuglier.
- [36:27]
Professor Darby Saxby
Totally. Like, like we. We evolved as humans to have these appealing, adorable features so that people would want to pick us up and cuddle us and take care of us. And. And that includes, you know, the. Not just Mom.
- [36:44]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I'm really glad you said that. And I also, I guess I should say, because I was a little hard on attachment parenting. If that's your. Your approach and you love it and it feels good and it's working for your family. Godspeed. I think it's the difference between that and. And. And thinking that it's rooted in some kind of evidence that you'll have a stronger connection.
- [37:03]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes.
- [37:04]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Like you might because your mood is lifted by it and you feel connected. But I just, I'm always concerned when people feel the pressure to do it because they think that somehow they're going to have a better connection.
- [37:16]
Professor Darby Saxby
Right. Or that the science is saying that you have to parent this way for an optimal child outcome. Yeah. My thing, like anything that people are. Yeah. If it's working for your kid and you're happy, you know, great. But the idea that you feel guilty every time you step away from your child because you've kind of internalized this idea that any separation will damage them, like, that's not really what we know from our science.
- [37:49]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
It's not.
- [37:49]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah.
- [37:50]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
That is also inspiring for dad brain because just gonna keep doing that because it's lonely forgetting that there are other people there to care.
- [38:03]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, that's right. You know, we need support like that. We were not designed to parent alone in isolation. And, you know, in some ways, like I talked to an anthropologist who has studied hunter gatherer societies and the extent to which there's just, you know, trading off, holding each other's children, like monitoring of kids. And he actually made a really interesting point. Like he has studied hunter gatherer fathers, but he said in some ways, in contemporary societies, there's actually more pressure on dads because you don't have the alloparental support of the intergenerational. You know, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, older kids. You just aren't as surrounded by that community.
- [38:49]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [38:50]
Professor Darby Saxby
So all the alloparental network pressure kind of gets put on dad. He's like the only other adult in the room. And that's actually not great either.
- [38:59]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right. We do need a little bit more of a. I have it. A little more here in California than I did in New York City. But that sense that we're all kind of looking out for each other's kids and it's such a special thing. Like, I wish we could recapture that a little bit.
- [39:15]
Professor Darby Saxby
The village.
- [39:16]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [39:17]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah, we need a village. Yeah.
- [39:19]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
My. My husband is a widower, and so he's been the sole parent since. For seven years. Watching a village try to come together in support of that experience and I think also having the experience of learning about what it's like to be a mother and a father in one body.
- [39:41]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah.
- [39:41]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I think his brain is wildly different because of it. And so incredibly empathetic and thoughtful and. I mean, but I didn't know him before. I'm sure he was also empathetic and thoughtful. But his insight into, like, now he's on the mom chats, you know, and like all of the things where he's the only dad there and it's otherwise mostly moms, unless it's a two dad family. And it's a wild ride, I think, to see that this, like, culturally just like, we're just. It's such a. It's such a different role.
- [40:20]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes. Yeah. I think we have these communities of mothers that often exclude men.
- [40:29]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yeah.
- [40:30]
Professor Darby Saxby
And, you know, like, when you become a mom, you are sort of like initiated into this society of moms.
- [40:38]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yes.
- [40:39]
Professor Darby Saxby
Which is good. Which is, you know, what we need. And dads can be a little more left out. And so they sort of have to forge those connections, you know, And I think, like, I was just talking to this someone the other day who's like, yeah, we have a dad club. We meet once a month at the bar. Most people don't show up, but, you know, but it's like you sort of do just like have to make it happen.
- [41:05]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I think, like, if. If that could happen more often. Because you're right. I feel like there is an initiation for moms. You get some community and if you don't, it's a little easier to find. And I hope you encourage people to do that. And moms are like, just looking for that mom who's like on the same page that they can hang with.
- [41:26]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah.
- [41:27]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And I don't know that dads have the personality or confidence or time or, or interest in doing that. But how life changing are your mom friends?
- [41:38]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. I mean, like, I would not have survived the first few years without, like, play dates with other moms. But I think it's interesting because there also is like a policy level kind of difference there. Like in Sweden, there is this whole thing about the latte papas.
- [41:56]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Oh, wow.
- [41:56]
Professor Darby Saxby
They're the men that hold their takeout cups of coffee and they're pushing strollers all over Stockholm. And. And it's like this subculture of like dads who meet up at cafes.
- [42:06]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Oh yeah.
- [42:07]
Professor Darby Saxby
And I spent a semester living in Barcelona when I did my Fulbright. And similarly, you would see all these young dads with kids just like pushing strollers around, walking with kids, holding hands. And so I think when you have the kind of policy landscape that sort of builds in protected time for dads to take off and that's normalized, it is easier for dads to make those connections.
- [42:32]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [42:32]
Professor Darby Saxby
Like they have that special space. And there's even like in Denmark, it's really normal for parents to work part time when kids are young. And a really normal schedule is like a four day work week with a day off for parenting. And they actually call it the Papa Dog, which is like the father day. So like the dad gets a day at home with kids. And there was a TV show called Papa Dog, which was like about five men hanging out at the playground. That's so cool. Isn't that so cool? Don't you want to see like a US version of that?
- [43:07]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Yes, that's a pitch.
- [43:09]
Professor Darby Saxby
But it would be harder to do it here because you don't have that scaffolding of like, it's super normal for men to be home taking care of kids.
- [43:19]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [43:20]
Professor Darby Saxby
You kind of need that. And then you create like the coffee clutch.
- [43:24]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
So what are your recommendations for? This is such a cruel thing to ask a researcher. Except you have this. So. And this is for parents.
- [43:33]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah.
- [43:34]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Also.
- [43:35]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah.
- [43:35]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
So what are the things that you. You were just like, I want to get this across to fathers and mothers.
- [43:41]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes.
- [43:41]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And everyone.
- [43:42]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. I mean, I think the first thing, and we've talked about this already, is just to feel empowered that you can do this and you can be great at it and to not decide that you lack the wiring.
- [43:53]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [43:54]
Professor Darby Saxby
Like, we know that our brains adapt to care and we can learn through care. And I think another piece is just like recognizing how transformative this time is. And we already talked about this, like vulnerability plus opportunity. It's like you can learn a lot, you can develop a lot of closeness. You might also struggle. And like, there's a chapter on perinatal mood disorders in men and they often go unrecognized. So men can Learn the signs of, you know, mental health problems and get help. So that's another piece.
- [44:33]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
What are those signs?
- [44:35]
Professor Darby Saxby
So it's. I'm glad you asked. So postpartum depression can show up differently in dads than it does in moms. So it might not be uncontrollable sadness. It might not be tears. It might be, like, irritability. It might be withdrawal. Like, just like dad doesn't want to be around the kid, it can be intense, like, hyper focus on work. So I wonder, and I talked to a mental health provider who thought this as well, like, how much of father absence is driven by untreated perinatal mental health problems.
- [45:17]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Wow.
- [45:17]
Professor Darby Saxby
In new dads, it's like that distance that pulling away. Dads feel like, I can't do this. They're overwhelmed. Like, some of that could just be depression talking.
- [45:29]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [45:29]
Professor Darby Saxby
You know, which is not to say, like, you know, dad should take off because they're struggling.
- [45:37]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Right.
- [45:38]
Professor Darby Saxby
But rather because men don't necessarily know what's happening and don't know how to get help. They are removing themselves from the family in a way that can have negative consequences for them and for their kids.
- [45:51]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
If a partner is noticing that, what would you recommend?
- [45:55]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yeah. So talk to a therapist, talk to a physician. Pay attention to those signs. And, you know, like, we stigmatize, I think, mental health problems in men. And there's all this research that suggests that men are less likely to seek. Seek help, especially talk therapy. And so, you know, like, the first thing is just to overcome that resistance and normalize that. This is part of being a good dad, is knowing that you're not doing well and wanting to be the best father for your kids. Kid means getting help. There are treatments that can be effective. Like some of the same treatments that we know are really effective for new moms, like cognitive behavioral therapies. Medication might make sense for some dads. In some cases, baby blues are just driven by sleep deprivation and isolation, and it's about getting social support and building healthier routines. So I think there are a lot of, like, sort of lifestyle tweaks to make, and then there's sort of a higher level of, okay, this is a problem. I need to talk to somebody.
- [47:10]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
If you're a father listening to this or a mom or grandparent or really anybody, but you're thinking of a dad who's been at this for years but really wasn't approaching their role with this in mind, how, like, I'm getting at, like, brain plasticity in later fatherhood.
- [47:33]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes.
- [47:34]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Talk to Us.
- [47:35]
Professor Darby Saxby
Yes. So this is a really cool emerging line of research that I talk about in the last chapter, that parenting actually seems neuroprotective in late life. So we have these big UK biobank studies that include thousands of brain scans of people in their 50s and 60s. And it turns out for both men and women, having had more children is linked with markers of a younger looking brain. So it's like this, like healthier, more resilient. You know, there are some resting state connectivity studies too that suggest it's like a more flexible, more connected brain. So there's something about. And we've been kind of talking about this idea that parenting is building this brain that has these benefits, these new skills. There's something about that that actually seems to help us age better.
- [48:32]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Come on. Come on.
- [48:33]
Professor Darby Saxby
So that's. What is that?
- [48:34]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
That's a great pitch.
- [48:35]
Professor Darby Saxby
It's a great pitch. And it's. What's interesting to me about the research is it's because it pops up in dads as well as in moms. It's clearly not just pregnancy hormones. It's not birth, it's not breastfeeding. Right. It's not like there's this reproductive transition that is unique to women that is somehow getting encoded in the brain. It's like this is probably parenting experience and it's probably also just social integration. Like, we know social isolation is bad for the brain. So it's like, you know, men who have these richer lives where they are, you know, part of a family see this neurological benefit.
- [49:17]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
That is so cool. That is so cool. And that is our Father's Day message.
- [49:24]
Professor Darby Saxby
Wonderful.
- [49:25]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And everybody can get dad brain. And also you're on Substack.
- [49:30]
Professor Darby Saxby
I am.
- [49:31]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
And you write beautiful articles on Substack.
- [49:33]
Professor Darby Saxby
Thank you. Yeah, that's kind of my fun hobby. That's where I go to rant.
- [49:37]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
I love it. It's so good.
- [49:38]
Professor Darby Saxby
I'm unleashed over there.
- [49:43]
Dr. Elisa Pressman
Thank you for joining me for this conversation. If you want more, which I'm sure you do, sign up for my substack newsletter@drelizapressman.substack.com and consider being a paid subscriber for access to my monthly Q and A. And follow me on Instagram at Raising Good humanspodcast.