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Is Your House Poisoning You? Navigating Toxic Mold, Landlords, and the Law | Kristina Baehr
01:42:53
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- [00:00]
Christina Baer
Mold grows exponentially. You want to find a mold assessor who is actually looking for mold. There is no industry standard that allows you to test while air purifiers are going. What industry would allow that? Of course not. They run an air scrubber and they tell the person, oh, no, we cleaned the air. And then they test it and it's safe. It's outrageous. It's really dangerous. And it really affects your brain and it affects your immune system. It affects every system because it attacks the immune system and create systemic inflammation, and that cascades in all these other ways. In Texas, a certified mold remediator must have a protocol from a certified mold assessor. The danger of that policy to all of us,
- [00:45]
Courtney Swan
I am very excited to bring our lawyer on, and I said in my last episode, actually, that we were going to bring our mold lawyer on to talk about everything that we've been through. And also my purpose in doing all these Instagram videos and podcast episodes is just simply to help other people navigate this. When I first shared that we found mold in our house, I don't think I've ever gotten so many DMS from people ever in my life. People want to know how we found it, what made us want to start testing for it. What do you do when you find it? What do you do with your landlords or. Or the builder if you own the house? Like, people have so many questions about all of this. And you and I have had many conversations because we got connected through a friend that I have a unique. I'm in a unique position where I can help a lot of people navigate this. And this is the wild, wild west out there right now. So my main mission in sharing everything about this is simply because I want to be able to provide as many resources for people as possible in order to help them navigate all this. So, first of all, Christina, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today.
- [01:51]
Christina Baer
I'm so glad to be here.
- [01:52]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, we have so much to talk about. We have so much to talk about. Also, Hector is in the sidelines and may interject a couple things here and there. I just want to point that out because he was also very greatly affected by this, obviously living in our moldy home. And you and I, just to be frank, were talking about this before we started recording that. I released a solo episode where I was. I'm trying to be very careful about what we're sharing right now because of the precarious nature that we are in, currently in the situation with our landlords. And we can maybe kind of go into some of this. The beauty of having my lawyer on here is you can tell me what I can and can't say.
- [02:28]
Christina Baer
I can tell you what you can and can't say. But ultimately, you're here to tell a story. This is what happened to you. You're making a difference in the world by sharing what happened to you. And that's what I'm trying to do, too. Something happened to my family, and it changed my life. And now I want to help other people. And it's this deep desire to have awareness.
- [02:51]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [02:52]
Christina Baer
I got to testify in my own trial. And I was asked, why are you bringing this case? And I looked at the jury and I said, because I want you to know I didn't know that this could happen to you. I didn't know that your house could make you sick. And of course, it was six years ago now, and mold has been more in the news, and there have been more celebrities and all the things. But at the time, my husband and I have five Ivy League degrees, and we had never heard the word stachybotrys, which is a dangerous black mold that had engulfed our house. We didn't even know that that could happen to you. So that's why I'm here. That's why I share my story with anyone who will listen. Because I want people to know that this can happen to you and you can get better. And litigation is one way to share your story, and it's one way to make a difference. But it's also. Litigation is not a last resort. I understand there's this hesitancy of the law is greedy. There's this idea, especially in Texas and in conservative circles, that litigation is greedy. Trial lawyers are greedy. You see big billboards. It's a greedy thing to bring a case. No, it's a brave thing to bring a claim because the justice system is there to enforce the safety rules. And if people aren't brave enough to bring the claims and if lawyers aren't brave enough to litigate them, then the bad actors are going to continue the bad acts because the justice system can't do its job. So it's not. I was pushing back a little bit before we went on air that litigation is not a last resort. It's not. We were forced to. No, It's a way to take control of your own narrative and to make a difference for the next person.
- [04:54]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. And I do want to clarify, because you're right. You brought up a really great point, as you said. I shared in our last episode that we felt our hands were forced into this. This litigation for the monetary reasons. And just to be very frank, the conversations that my husband and I were having the last couple months were very much. In fact, I will never forget this is one of the things that was, like, imprinted in my brain is that my husband brought up a really great point because we were having all these conversations about how do people. How do normal people that are just living paycheck to paycheck actually get out of situations like this? And Hector, my husband, goes, what would we do if we were on section 8? He goes, what do people do that are in Section 8 when they get into a situation like this where they find this toxic black mold in their home and they do not have any other option? Because, thank God my husband and I had friends that we could go stay with for a little bit. We had the monetary resources to go pay for another Airbnb. We were able to get out immediately. Someone commented on my video yesterday about the podcast and said, I wish I could get out of my moldy home, but I can't. And so we started having all these conversations about, you know, Hector Moore. So than me, only because I've been going through so much that I'm like, there's only so much I can put on my plate right now. But Hector's like, I want this to be my next mission. Like, I really want to create more resources. I want to change the law around this. I want to be able to really help people and fix the laws around this. Because we were finding every single step of the way that we were hitting these roadblocks. We were like, oh, my gosh, how is this not more protected by the law? And how are we not more protected by the law in these situations? So it was not my intention in that last video, and I just want to clarify was that we're not, like, greedy and looking for money. It was. It was simply because the beginning stages of going through this, we were looking at this huge Goliath of a situation where we were like, oh, my gosh, my mom is battling cancer, was about to die. We knew that it was like, you know, a month, you know, a month or two away. I'm pregnant. We were having to move again. So it was just the thought of having to get in a lawsuit. We were like, oh, my gosh, do we have to do this right now? But I think. I think it was meant to be in this way. And I've said this many times to Hector, that even though we were resistant to doing litigation in the first place because of everything I just mentioned. And I think it was meant to be this way because I think it's meant to raise more awareness and I think it's going to help more people. And to what Hector was saying is that hopefully maybe it will get enough attention that we can change some laws around it. I don't know.
- [07:29]
Christina Baer
The law is already projecting you.
- [07:32]
Courtney Swan
Okay, let's go into that. So explain more how.
- [07:35]
Christina Baer
Well, in Texas, we have a law called the Deceptive Trade Practices act. That means that a company, an individual, cannot engage in unconscionable conduct. If they engage in unconscionable conduct, you can bring a claim and you can sue them for the unconscionable conduct. And then if you win even $1, you can get your attorney's fees for pursuing the deceptive trade practices claim. Okay, that's a wonderful law. It's meant to protect you. Now, you didn't know that you had that right. Hector's saying we should change the law. I don't need to change the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. I'm very happy with it. I'm going to trial on Monday and I'm going to asserting the deceptive trade practices claims. And I talked to a lawyer, I don't need to mention his name, but I talked to him today and I said, he's offering me a low ball offer. And I said, listen, and at trial, I'm going to present the case. And if I get even $1 for my client, I get my attorney's fees. And let me tell you, last time I presented my attorney's fees, the jury tipped me on the attorney's fees because I was there doing a good job. I asked for, I think $330,000 or something, and the jury gave me 350,000.
- [08:53]
Courtney Swan
Wow.
- [08:54]
Christina Baer
They tipped me on the attorney's fees. So I'm not asking for outrageous fees. I'm just asking for my time. But the law in Texas is created in a way to protect you. We're bringing the DTPA claims and we're winning. And then of course, if the other side says, well, injury, causation, you know, I'm like, causation, I might lose injury. I still have a claim. We still have a claim under the Deceptive Trade Practices Act. So, you know, go pound sand. I'll see you at trial. And what's a jury going to do? So here's the issue. On Monday, the landlord has a policy that it will not use the word mold. Now think about this. There are 33 million apartments, apartment units in the United States. Most of them are owned by institutions like investors, non private owners. Right. So those investors are incentivized to cut costs and cut corners. If we don't use the word mold, then we don't have to hire a certified mold assessor. We certainly don't have to hire a certified mold remediator. Because in Texas, a certified mold remediator must have a protocol from a certified mold assessor. But we can avoid all that by not using the word. What is a jury gonna do with that policy? Yeah, the danger of that policy to all of us. Imagine 33 units. Mold grows exponentially. So if we don't use the word and we don't address it and we don't remove it and we don't use the certified professionals. That's gonna grow in all those units. It's gonna put our kids at risk, our grandkids at risk, our are college kids at risk. Right. Who's in apartments? The elderly, babies, new families, all of them at risk because we are so concerned about our bottom line that we're not going to use the word. What's a jury going to do with that? I guarantee you I'm going to get at least $1 under the deceptive Trade Practices Act. And if I get $1 under the deceptive trade practices, then we get our attorney's fees and our client gets recovery because I, you know, whatever the amount is gets added together and then there's a contingency fee. So let's say I only get attorneys fees. My client still gets 40% of that.
- [11:25]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [11:26]
Christina Baer
So, you know, I wish this could go live today and I could send it to the opposing counsel, but game on, dude. Game on. I'll see you. I'll see you at trial on Monday.
- [11:37]
Courtney Swan
I love it. This is why you're a lawyer and I'm not.
- [11:40]
Christina Baer
You know, so people come to me and they're like, you know, I want to share. Can I share a little bit about our conversation? You know, when we met, we were meeting as friends, so I wasn't your attorney at the time, but you were lamenting, I can't talk about it. And this thing happened, and because the
- [12:03]
Courtney Swan
landlords were screenshotting everything that I was posting on my Instagram and then emailing
- [12:08]
Christina Baer
it to us, you were feeling pretty defeated, if I. Is that fair to say?
- [12:12]
Courtney Swan
Oh, 100%, yeah.
- [12:14]
Christina Baer
And I think in that conversation, I got riled up because I was like, no way. No way. This is an injustice that happened. There is a remedy in the law. This is what the law is for and this is what speech is for. Let's go out and talk about it. Right? Because if we don't talk about it and if we don't bring the claims, then the bad actors are going to continue to do it. And the law is about. So the law is about two things, tort law, and this is tort law, because this is a negligence claim. Deceptive trade practices is sort of tort law, but there are two purposes. One is to compensate the victim, which is what you're talking about. But number two is to deter the bad conduct in the first place. So when courts have written about the purpose of tort law, it's about both of those things. So I get to look at the jury and say, what's it going to take? What's it going to take for them to change this policy? If you give them 100 grand, are they going to change the policy? How about a million? How about 2 million? How about 50 million? What is it going to take for this company to start using the word so that we can protect the people in their units? The jury has a chance. This jury is empowered to make that decision. And what a beautiful country we live in that entrusts the safety to the people.
- [13:45]
Courtney Swan
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- [17:39]
Christina Baer
So you always want to pay rent. You always want to pay rent because you don't want them to be able to use the non payment of rent against you. But you're looking at that law as not in your favor. I look at that provision as in your favor. You get to give them notice. You give them a chance to remediate it. If they don't remediate it, you get to send them a termination that says it's not safe. You haven't remediated. I get to get out. So, you know, they could still send you an eviction notice, by the way, even now. Bring it on.
- [18:16]
Courtney Swan
Which is.
- [18:16]
Christina Baer
I hope they listen to this episode. Bring it on. File the eviction notice. That's retaliatory eviction. Okay. I'll use it in our case. Great. Please do. So, you know, I did have a client who was, who is this amazing client who had cancer and she did tell her landlord and she wanted to get it remediated. Right. So she gave notice properly and they always paid. Their mom helped with the rent and because they were still in school, both of them sisters, and the mom paid, always in the first week of the month, but not necessarily the first day. Had paid the first week of the month now for probably many, many months, he never got it the first day, never cared, never commented. This time, of course, on the second day of the month, he posted an eviction notice.
- [19:11]
Courtney Swan
That's crazy. How is that even.
- [19:13]
Christina Baer
And I had told her, listen, he can't evict you because you're moving out. You've told him you're moving out, he's not gonna evict you. He evicted them anyway. But it was a retaliatory eviction. And then I got to use that in the case against him. Because, you know, my message to landlords is if you want to evict my clients because they reported Mold. Go for it. You're inviting a lawsuit. Why would you do that? Most of my clients, like you, just want to get out of their leases. Let them out of their lease, they'll go on their way. But if you fight them, you don't let them out of their lease, and then, heaven forbid, you serve an eviction notice. Game on. What is a jury gonna do with that in Travis County? So I think that they're. I'm just a little bit more aggressive in that. You know, you send them the notice, you give them a chance to fix it, and then you send them a letter and say, I'm terminating my lease for health reasons. Now, if they. If they evict you or if they send you to creditors, that's on them, and that all becomes part of the case.
- [20:25]
Courtney Swan
And then if we were. So if that happened and then we were. And then we won the case, would we be able to reverse that eviction on our record?
- [20:32]
Christina Baer
Yes, that would be a retaliate. Retaliatory eviction.
- [20:35]
Courtney Swan
Okay. Now, I understand that a lot.
- [20:37]
Christina Baer
In that earlier case, lo and behold, I fought it, right. I went to court, I said, this is a retaliatory eviction. And they dropped it. They dropped the eviction. And then we sued them. You know, we. We had a case pending in. In the district court.
- [20:57]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [20:58]
Christina Baer
So. But that's the. Landlords, then. This is why I'm here. This is why I do what I do, because I want to change the incentives. Landlords, proceed at your peril there. We're going to give you a chance to do the right thing. Our tenants almost always give you a chance to do the right thing. But if they're sick, if they're pregnant, let them out of their lease. This is not rocket science. And since we have been bringing these claims, landlords have been letting people out of their leases, and that's for the good of everybody, because that's what the law does. That's what these cases do.
- [21:40]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [21:40]
Christina Baer
They change the incentives, and that's what the law is for.
- [21:44]
Courtney Swan
Okay, that's good. And I understand now. Now I understand this a little bit better. I was very nervous about some of that. I just. Because, you know, admittedly, I'm the type of person and I think there's also a. What is the word? Pregnancy? Brain is just really fun. I forget so many words, but there's this preconceived notion that suing is greedy. And we said this earlier, right? And I. I have that too, where, like, I don't want to just be Suing to, like, make money or. You know, and Hector and I talked about this in great detail before. Before. I mean, it got. It got so out of control that we felt like our. Our hands were forced into it because to your point, what you were just saying, all we ever wanted was out of release. That was it. Like, we laugh about it now because we're just like, how the. The way that they escalated this to the point that it is now. In the beginning, the conversations that we were having with my dad were just like, we just want to get out of the lease and get our security deposit back. We want to move on with our lives. My mom is sick. I'm pregnant. Like, we're not looking for anything. And now we're like, oh, to what you're saying, Game on. Like, you made our lives a living hell the last couple months. And we fought tooth and nail desperately trying to settle with them in every step of the way. They were trying to nickel and dime us. They didn't want to give us security deposit back. The very first time that they wrote us back, they wanted us to pay. So this is in January, when we were like, please, just let us out of our lease. We'll take our security deposit back, and we'll just go on our way. That's it, what you just said. We gave them so many opportunities to do the right thing, and they wanted us to pay February rent, and we had already paid January rent, and then they also wanted to take our security deposit. And we were like, what is going on here? What do you mean? We found Stachybotrys, which is one of the most toxic black forms, black mold in your home. And you're acting like we did something wrong to you. And our only. What we were guilty of was moving into your moldy home. How is that okay?
- [23:40]
Christina Baer
But the law protects us. We don't need a new law. I mean, I know that there are some people who are trying to get better laws. Okay, fine. But I'm going to. I'm working the system I have. And the system I have says that if they don't give you your security deposit back because you complained of a health hazard, that's wrongful withholding of a security deposit, treble damages, attorney's fees. Bring it on. That's going to be part of our claim.
- [24:06]
Courtney Swan
Bring it on.
- [24:07]
Christina Baer
Like, you know, land, you know, unsolicited advice to landlords. Don't withhold a security deposit because someone complained of a health hazard. Bad idea. This is not rocket science.
- [24:21]
Courtney Swan
It's true.
- [24:23]
Christina Baer
And if you do that, someone's going to bring a claim.
- [24:29]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [24:30]
Christina Baer
They say this with doctors, too. I'm a huge proponent of wonderful doctors. I've had great doctors in my life. There are actually studies that show that the doctors who make a mistake and say they're sorry don't get sued. So you're told. Never. You know, landlords might be told, and these landlords have counsel who are giving them clearly bad advice, but they're told, you know, don't say you're sorry, don't accept responsibility, whatever. But it turns out when you do that, when you take responsibility, when you have accountability, you don't get sued.
- [25:07]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [25:08]
Christina Baer
You know, I have this huge case in Hawaii against the United States. The United States Navy had a fuel release right next to the water source in Hawaii. The water went right into the wells for people. Now, there were. There was a way to do that. Right. Because accidents happen. They should have said, stop drinking the water. There's a risk. We have this huge fuel release right next to the well. Just don't drink the water for a little while. Let's see if we can sort it out. Instead, didn't announce the fuel release to the people. And when people started smelling fuel in the water, the United States Navy held town halls around those neighborhoods and told them, we don't know where the smell is coming. We're investigating the source. As if they didn't know that thousands of gallons of fuel had gone into the water well from their own fuel release just a week before.
- [26:12]
Courtney Swan
Oh, my God.
- [26:14]
Christina Baer
Okay. People mobilized. They were furious. Why? Not. Because there was fuel in the water. There's been fuel in the water before. Because the Navy lied about it. Because they didn't disclose it. That's why.
- [26:36]
Courtney Swan
Well, it's so messed up because if you were to disclose it and say, hey, we did this, then people know. That's why. It all comes back to the whole notion of informed consent that I hammer in all the time is that when people know about something, then they know how to. How to go around it. Right. So, like, if I knew that that was in my water, then I would not be drinking that water. It's so simple.
- [26:59]
Christina Baer
And, you know, when. This is not rocket science. So if you. If you depose. You know, I got to depose all of those officers or some of them. And you. You ask any. Anyone. Do you agree that the government should provide safe water? Yes.
- [27:15]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [27:16]
Christina Baer
The government must provide safe water to protect all of us from mayhem, illness, and even death. True.
- [27:23]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [27:26]
Christina Baer
Okay. Number two, if the government contaminates the water. It must tell us right away so that we can protect ourselves and our children from mayhem, illness, cancer, death. Right.
- [27:40]
Courtney Swan
Yep. It's not rocket.
- [27:44]
Christina Baer
You know, during this happened on a. On the island of Oahu in November 2021, and while the government was providing safe water, and because ultimately they had to obviously stop use of the water once people were vomiting, they literally let people get sick. So people had welts, they had burns, they were vomiting, they had acute poisoning symptoms. So after that, they were like, oh, okay, you're right. It was the Department of Health of Hawaii that tested the water and found the elevated levels. And then the government had to admit, oh, yes, there was a fuel release. Sorry. So once they said, sorry, there was a fuel release, they had to provide these gallons of water. These. And they brought in, they called buffaloes of water. So some of those buffaloes got contaminated how? With Legionella or something, Some bacteria. But you know what's interesting? They immediately warned the people.
- [28:42]
Courtney Swan
Well, maybe they learned their lesson.
- [28:44]
Christina Baer
This buffalo has XYZ bacteria. So stop use of that. That's what's supposed to happen, right? Yes, but that's not what they did when they spilled tens of gallons of jet fuel into the water.
- [29:00]
Courtney Swan
Is that case still going on right now, or are you allowed to show.
- [29:02]
Christina Baer
Still going on.
- [29:03]
Courtney Swan
And where are you at with it right now?
- [29:06]
Christina Baer
We had a trial, and the judge issued damages to some representative clients. That's called a bellwether trial. We did that. That was in May of 2024. The judge took a long time to issue her order. So that was released in May of 2025. Took a whole year in that order. She issued damages. Well, and I'm not. I'm not disclosing anything that hasn't been disclosed on the docket, but the United States has settled with plaintiffs from the area for less than the. Than the judge's lowest number that she issued in her order. So her lowest number was 37,000. The government has settled with residents for 27,000, which I find to be just outrageous. I understand why people have taken it. It's to take it so long. Right. But I am. I'm angry. I'm angry with the United States government because they are charged with doing the right thing. And I'm angry that they have not given anybody so far a number that's within the judge's range. Yeah, that's crazy, because the judge's range was. It was 37 to 110. Don't quote me on the exact number. Somewhere. Somewhere in there. In that range. And to my knowledge, because it would be on the public docket, the government has not paid a single person the amount that the judge awarded. So for that reason, we have to go back to trial. So the judge has issued. Has ordered us to go back to trial. We have six trials scheduled. And I'm going to be going back. And we will try these cases until the government pays the rest of our clients, because some of them accepted the offer, the rest of our clients what they deserve and what has been ordered. And this is what the law is for. And I worked for the United States. It was the greatest honor of my life to say, christina Baer for the United States. It never got old. You would make your, you know, you'd go to court and you'd make your announcement. So last week, I got to go to court and say, christina Baer for the service members.
- [31:28]
Courtney Swan
That's awesome.
- [31:29]
Christina Baer
And I made an argument just for our service member clients, because the government is claiming that they don't get to recover with their families because they were in the service. And they're claiming that their injuries, which was, by the way, poisoning at home and acute poisoning while they were bathing their littles, was incident to their military service. And it's an incredibly important issue. It's likely going to go up to the 9th Circuit and maybe the Supreme Court. But I got to go in front of this judge and make the best argument I could that when you're naked in your shower and when you are washing baby bottles, you are not on military orders.
- [32:18]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [32:19]
Christina Baer
And you should be entitled to recover with your family. And it was just. It was such an honor.
- [32:26]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. Wow. You'll have to keep me updated on that court case. And I'm sure people want to. Yeah. Want to pay attention to that. Oh, man. All. Yeah. This is. Just hearing these stories just. They make me sad. It's crazy. But also to your point, it's great that we have the law in place that can actually protect people and hopefully the law will win on their side. In this particular case.
- [32:51]
Christina Baer
Think about how brave they were. Thousands. Thousands of military service members and their families said, never again, this stops with us.
- [33:04]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [33:05]
Christina Baer
And when we filed the case, we thought it might get dismissed under something called the discretionary function exception. And there were a lot of ways that this case could have gone south because there has not, never been that we know of, a successful environmental injury case against the United States. And, you know, the government admitted negligence. And so we were. We. These families prevailed. So thousands of Americans stood up together, united and they united with the people of Hawaii, which was also really beautiful. The people of Hawaii supported these families, military families, because they wanted to shut down the Red Hill facility. So that's a great example of what the law is for. Because when we brought the case, we brought it all to light and it was all public and put down. There was a movement and the Hawaiian community, the Oahu Water Protectors and the military families marched and petitioned and demanded the shutdown of the facility, which was something I couldn't do with a lawsuit. Yeah, my lawsuit doesn't allow for a recovery of shutting down the facility, but it was part of the broader effort. Do you see? And because we brought the claim, because we brought it to national attention, because we talked to anyone who would listen, the government shut down that fuel facility and it can't hurt people anymore.
- [34:32]
Courtney Swan
So all I keep thinking about when you're talking about this is the rally that we have coming up, April 27, of people versus poison is what we're calling it, which is essentially the reason why we're doing that on April 27th is it's the day that the Supreme Court is taking up the Bayer Monsanto case. And we're going to show up on the steps of the Supreme Court as Americans and say, we do not agree to this. We do not agree to be poisoned. We do not agree to allow these chemical companies to have a liability shield that protects their products and the people from being able to hold them accountable for it. And I'm really hoping that something comes out of this. It'll be really interesting to see what happens.
- [35:14]
Christina Baer
I will be there.
- [35:15]
Courtney Swan
You will?
- [35:16]
Christina Baer
I will. I will be there. I have my three minute slot. I'm very excited.
- [35:20]
Courtney Swan
Oh, you're speaking.
- [35:20]
Christina Baer
I am speaking with you, yes. And I'm really fired up. So any, any listeners should come and hear. But I'm giving the legal perspective because, you know, the government in the Hawaii case, their argument is immunity. They're immune for claims from the service members.
- [35:36]
Courtney Swan
Yep.
- [35:36]
Christina Baer
Well, if they're immune, then they have no incentive not to do it the next time. Right.
- [35:44]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [35:45]
Christina Baer
The justice system is meant to change the incentives. And I think one thing that people don't know, and I didn't know until recently, is this notion of a jury trial for civil claims is actually new to our country. When the founders were coming here from England, in Great Britain, they have jury trials for criminal cases. But our founders said, no, we want the people to decide the civil claims too.
- [36:20]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [36:21]
Christina Baer
So this, the notion of what is safe and what is not, what is reasonable and what is not, what is unconscionable and what is not is entrusted to the people, to a jury of your peers. So I find that what Trump did is unconstitutional.
- [36:37]
Courtney Swan
It is.
- [36:38]
Christina Baer
It's contrary to the intent of the founders who created the jury system. And if we grant bear immunity, who's next? And this notion that we have to grant immunity because there's some perceived national security threat, that's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. You know what's a national security threat? Poisoning sick people. Yeah, Right. We cannot be mission ready if our people are sick. And that's true in the military, but it's also true for the entire country. There are national security threats. Right now. We are at war in Iran. We cannot afford to have a sick population. We need to be strong for our economy. We need to be strong for our army. You know, the army is the people are our greatest asset. That's their motto of the Army. If that's true, if the people are our greatest asset, the people cannot be sick.
- [37:37]
Courtney Swan
I know this is what I don't understand and how this is not fully gotten. It seems like Trump gets parts of it, but how is this not fully gotten to Trump's understanding? When you look at the stats, between 17 and 24, ages 17 and 24, 74% of those young males are ineligible for military service. 74%. You want to talk about a national security threat, and then you talk about the fact that we're literally in war right now and we have less than 30% of our population that is even fit for military service. It's concerning, and it's because they're all sick. It's because we are sick as a nation, and we are doing this to our people. And then we're allowing these agrochemical companies, and I mean, there's so many other companies that are involved, but we're allowing these corporations to care more about profit than human health, and we need to tamper them down. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting what happens with this rally.
- [38:37]
Christina Baer
Can I tell you about my client, Beau? Beau was 18, and he got to go to court and testify to the judge about this Hawaii case. And the judge really liked him, I could tell. But also he said, I am here for all the teenagers. I am here for all the kids. I represent all the kids. But he developed. What is it called when your hand twitches?
- [39:04]
Courtney Swan
Oh, God. I'm not the person for this right now.
- [39:06]
Christina Baer
My pregnancy, like, tremor.
- [39:09]
Courtney Swan
Tremors.
- [39:09]
Christina Baer
He developed a tremor while he was drinking. The Toxic water. And he told the judge, all I ever wanted was to join the Navy like my dad.
- [39:19]
Courtney Swan
Oh.
- [39:20]
Christina Baer
And now I'm not eligible to join the Navy like my dad. So the government, the United States, he, he still wanted to join the very entity that poisoned him, that prevented him from serving. You know, I told the judge in closing, this is a patriotic exercise. These service members, these families, we are here for all of us. Yeah, they are here for all of us. They believe in this country. They want to hold the country to the standards that the country has agreed to follow. And the same is true of this poison versus people mission. We want to hold the United States government to the same standards that it has already agreed to be held to. We want to hold these companies just to follow the law. I mean, we're just asking that they follow the law. And by granting them immunity, you're giving them a free pass in every respect. Yeah, it's very, it's very upsetting and I think it's unconstitutional. It's very. And it's contrary to our national security. And whether you're red or blue or purple, you should care about this because it really matters to conservative principles, to liberal principles. We are not Republican or Democrat. We are human. And we need to be talking about this and what it's doing to our country.
- [40:59]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. And look, it affects all of us. The fact that it even is being put into a specific political camp, in my opinion, is ridiculous. I mean, there's only, there's one side that's propping it up more. But we should all, as Americans stand up and say, I don't care if you're a Republican or Democrat, this is affecting all of us. Or libertarian or whatever, you know, it's affecting all of us. It's poisoning us all. Inflammation is an important part of the body's natural healing process. But unfortunately, our modern lifestyle diets high in sugar, unhealthy fats, stress, allergies, poor sleep, environmental toxins can trigger chronic inflammation which can become the foundation of modern day disease. If you're looking for a delicious drink that will improve energy focus and support healthy inflammation levels, you need to try Paleo Valley's superfood Golden Milk. It combines the profound, well demonstrated health benefits of turmeric with other nourishing certified organic superfoods such as lion's mane, Reishi, cordyceps, shiitake, Ceylon cinnamon ginger and more. Plus they've added organic coconut milk for its brain supportive MCTS black pepper, Himalayan pink salt and organic monk fruit for an amazing taste and maximal absorption. To try the Superfood Golden Milk today go to paleov.com real foodology and you will save 15% off when you use code real foodology. Again, that's paleovalley.com real foodology a lot of conventional sprays and throat products are filled with dyes, chemicals and ingredients that I really like to avoid. That's why I love Beekeepers Naturals. They're a health and wellness company reinventing everyday resources remedies with clean, effective alternatives that actually work. One of their key ingredients is Propolis which is what bees use to protect their hive from germs. For us, it helps defend against germs on the spot and supports the immune system with more than 300 antioxidants and bioactive compounds. Two products that I always keep on hand are their Propolis Immune Support Throat Spray and the Propolis Nasal Spray. Max the throat spray is great if your throat throat gets dry or scratchy. It's soothing and delivers antioxidants that help support your body's defenses. And the nasal spray is amazing during allergy season. It's drug free, non habit forming and helps cleanse and soothe your nasal passages while flushing out irritants. Today, Beekeepers Naturals is giving my listeners an exclusive offer. So go to beekeepersnaturals.com real foodology or enter real foodology to get 20 off your order. That's beekeepersnaturals.com.
- [43:30]
Christina Baer
As far as we know, our case is the first successful environmental injury case against the United States. Certainly, certainly never on a mass scale like this. There might be a case here or there that I'm missing, but the reason is because one service members are afraid to bring claims and their families, they don't want retaliation. This conduct was so egregious that people had to bring a claim or similar. This is similar to your story. They felt compelled to bring a claim because it reached the threshold that we need justice here. So that's another reason. But there are a lot of provisions that protect the United States government. There are a lot of immunities and thankfully I had just been working for the United States. So when I saw that the government admitted that it was human error that caused the fuel release, human error is negligence. And I thought, okay, I have a claim, I can come and do this and I have a claim. And I rallied to file the first complaint because I knew that I could draft the complaint in a way that would survive the immunity challenges or I hoped I could. And we did. The government didn't even assert immunity for the entire case. They're asserting immunity for the service members. But that in itself was a win. And one reason I think that there was that win is because our clients won the war of public opinion before they even entered the courtroom. Because, you know, that island. They were there. They saw it. Right? I mean, this was a colossal failure on behalf of the United States government. And I think by admitting. And it was really interesting to watch the legal. Their legal strategy change over time, because in the beginning, their legal strategy, I think, was. Was smart in what I would have done, which is, we're so sorry this happened. We admit that the Navy was negligent and that there is recovery here. And that first brief that they filed was really beautiful. The opening paragraph said something like that. And when I used to represent the United States, I would show up to mediation with someone in uniform who said, I'm sorry for what happened to you. Not like necessarily, I'm sorry that there was negligence or whatever, but just, I'm sorry for what happened to you. And, man, if the United States had had someone show up in uniform and say, I'm sorry, but that intro paragraph was kind of in that incline. But do you know, at trial, they had the audacity to take the position that people weren't actually sick. It was psychosomatic.
- [46:37]
Courtney Swan
Oh, wow. Our landlords try to do that, too.
- [46:40]
Christina Baer
They said, there is not enough fuel in the water to make people sick. That was a position that they went into trial with. So. And I was really upset because especially at the time that I was going through this, I was sick myself, and I was going through my own journey. And the defendants in my own case were saying that I was psychosomatic. So I was really offended that they took that position for our clients. And I called them out on social media, and I called out the name of their expert, because if you. And I'll say it again, because I really believe it. If you hire an expert to say that a historic event didn't happen, that there wasn't enough fuel in the water to make people sick when, you know, thousands of people got sick according to your own documents, What is that expert doing? How is that expert credible? So it was really interesting to see which, you know, how the government experts were. Some were credible and some were not. But that one, to say there wasn't enough fuel in the water to make people sick. But here's the thing that I've learned in retrospect, what a gift, because it's so wrong and the judge really didn't give it credence. The judge found that every single one of the bellwether trial members, every one of the representative clients were sick. So.
- [48:19]
Courtney Swan
So they were just digging themselves in deeper.
- [48:21]
Christina Baer
Yeah. You know, and over time, I've been able to have more distance in these cases. They're doing a job, and I disagree with their strategy, but that was the position that they chose to take at trial, and they lost on that issue. I wanted more damages. I didn't get as many damages. And so that's how litigation goes. There are ups and downs and things in your favor and things that are not. And I'm working on my own nervous system to not let them put me in a box.
- [48:59]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, you know, well, it's really hard. There's emotions that are high in situations like this. I mean, with our particular situation with our landlords. I remember you might have even said this, too, but I have a very close girlfriend who's a lawyer, and early on, she said to me, she goes, I know it's hard to not take this personally, but you got to remember that a lot of this is just the strategy from their lawyer, and they may not actually be feeling this way, and that this is just their strategy. And she's like, if you can hold that, maybe it won't affect you so much. Because it was really affecting me in the beginning. I was. I don't think I've ever been so mad in my whole life, actually. I was full of rage with. Their initial reaction back was like, what do you mean? You're acting like, this is not a big deal. I'm pregnant, and we just found the most toxic form of black mold in our home. What do you mean? You're going to tell me that I'm crazy and that I can't leave the home? I was beyond myself with rage.
- [49:57]
Christina Baer
Well, especially. You know, there's probably a part of you that says, I have a M.A. you have a master's degree.
- [50:07]
Courtney Swan
Yes.
- [50:07]
Christina Baer
Like, I'm not a master's degree. I have spent the last 12 years or however many years advocating for purity in our environment, in our food, in our. You're going to call me crazy. And, you know, there was a part of me that was like, in my own case, I have two Ivy League degrees. You're going to say that I just made this all up in my head. And then when we got to trial, the opposing counsel at the closing argument in my own case pulled up the. The diagram of my house, which we'll do for you, too, and it showed all the mold results throughout the whole House. And it was my. Our demonstrative. And he showed it to the jury, and he said, I'm not going to tell you that there's no mold in this house. We've been through three years of litigation, dude. All of a sudden, at the end of trial, you're like, oh, yeah, there is mold. What? So. So, you know, sometimes those. Their. Whatever their position is ends up. They end up changing it. But what I've learned is, what a gift.
- [51:17]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [51:18]
Christina Baer
I mean, what a gift. The other day I showed. There was this deposition where I have this really smart opposing counsel, but male, incredibly arrogant associate, Young, who deposes my client and says, well, women have stress at work. Right. And women have sick kids. Right. And women have health challenges. Right. And went through all these things that happened to women and then said, but you think it's stress that causes ectopic pregnancy or something like that? So we showed that clip to a focus group. Focus group. Just lost their minds. Yeah, they lost their minds.
- [52:14]
Courtney Swan
I'd be pissed.
- [52:15]
Christina Baer
So, you know, I embrace what these bad actors are doing to you. You can kind of take a step back and be like, all right, let's see what the jury's going to say about that. Let's see what a jury's going to say about the security deposit that you don't have back. Okay. Or we'll get to mediation and hopefully we'll resolve it beforehand. But I'm learning to see some of that stuff, first of all, to take it less personally and then to see it as a gift.
- [52:51]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [52:52]
Christina Baer
And I also want to tell you that anger is, in some ways, the foundation of justice. There is, in fact, righteous anger.
- [53:06]
Courtney Swan
Oh, yeah.
- [53:07]
Christina Baer
Jesus came in and turned those tables over. And during. During jury selection, I ask people, you know, is anger ever a good thing? When is anger good? Well, anger, anger, communal anger, has been the source of a lot of good change over the years. So anger itself is not bad as long as it is used and transformed into action. And in a way, that's what you're doing. You are angry, and that's your body telling you that, whoa, there are boundaries that have been crossed. And now you get to use that anger for the good of all of us.
- [53:49]
Courtney Swan
Yeah. So this doesn't happen to people again. I mean, that's, you know, another thing that Hector and I have talked about, that we felt like our hand was forced into this. But now, looking back, had we just gotten out of our lease in January and they'd given us our security deposit back, we would have gone along Gone on our way through this whole process, we have learned that these landlords are not taking this mold situation seriously at all. And had we done that, chances are they probably would have just got another tenant in there that would have also been poisoned by mold. And they may not have had the resources to move out. They may have not even had the. How do I say this in a way where I'm not trying to put them down, but mold is so new that they may or not have. May not have had the education to even know that the symptoms and everything that they were dealing with was mold, and they would have never even known to go down that path. So my point is that I think this all happened for a reason. And now, hopefully, we're saving another family from moving in there and then also getting poisoned.
- [54:51]
Christina Baer
Courtney, you continue to think about this case, but don't you see the impact you're having beyond this one apartment? What do you mean? Well, even one case is symbolic because when you talk to a jury, you know, I got to do that in a case last year, and I told the jury, you know, this is. This is about more than just this case. What is the message that you want to send? And by the way, that is perfectly legal. There's case law that says that I can say exactly that. What is the message you want to send to landlords in this county or this country or this. You know, and so it's not just about saving the people who are going to move into your particular unit. It's also saving the people down the street or raising awareness, you know, so that there are going to be people who hear your story, who thinks, wait a minute, I noticed that. And now I feel sick. Maybe. So many people have come to me and said, I heard your story. CNBC did a story on my family. And I just got. I got a thousand calls right away. My firm had just opened, but so many people said, I didn't know there was a problem until I heard you. And then I went and tested and imagine. I mean, you have so many followers who are doing exactly that right now because you're. Because you're willing to. You're willing to share it. You're willing to hold your landlord accountable. You're doing that for all of us.
- [56:37]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [56:38]
Christina Baer
It's not just about this one landlord.
- [56:40]
Courtney Swan
Of course not. I just was thinking about the direct downstream of it, but absolutely. I mean, that's why I'm sharing it publicly. It's why instead of just doing this, you know, silently, I'm sharing about it. I'M doing ton of episodes about this and bringing on various mold experts because we didn't know what we didn't know. You didn't know, you didn't know until you went through the same experience. And now that we've learned so much, we're like, oh, my gosh, we have to share this because so many people could be struggling and have no idea. Which actually brings me to. I want you to share your story because I. I remember specifically you talking about how seeing you saw the differences in your children, you felt it too, but also seeing the differences and your children and then seeing how they were acting once you got out of the house was really pretty amazing to hear. Very sad. But just the story of it is, people need to hear it.
- [57:28]
Christina Baer
Well, I was sick for years and couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. And I went to doctor after doctor, great doctors, by the way. But my doctors didn't know to ask about the environment. So finally, you know, they said, reduce stress in your life. You're a partner at a big law firm doing international trade relation work, and you have four children. That's not sustainable. Right? So you must switch jobs and reduce stress in your life. So how many women get that message, by the way?
- [58:04]
Courtney Swan
All the time.
- [58:05]
Christina Baer
But, you know, I did that. So reducing stress is good. I went to the government. I had every other Friday off. I spent more time with my kids. I was gluten free and sugar free and dairy free and I was exercising more and I felt worse. And then they sent us to go work at home during COVID And then I couldn't see straight and I didn't know what was wrong with me. I knew something was very wrong with me. And I thought about driving into oncoming traffic and I thought, something's wrong with me. And finally I went to a concierge doctor who gave me a litany of test tests. Her name is Dr. Picardo of Resilient Health. Saved our life. One of those tests was a mycotoxin test. And I was testing for everything. Is it from my time in Africa? Do I have malaria still? Do I have, you know, ringworm? What do I have West Nile disease? Right. And my mycotoxin test was very, very high. And she said, go test your house. And I said, test for what? I was not in this community. I did not know who Courtney Swan was. I mean, I had never heard any of this before. What do you mean? Test for what? And a mold assessor came in and told me that actually my house was fine. He Literally walked around, was like, looks pretty well constructed. I think you're fine. You took an air sample in the middle room. You're good. But I had a different mold assessor who had. I had canceled on because I got the other guy sooner and he didn't get the message I had canceled. He shows up my house, I'm in my pajamas again. His name's Tim Taylor. Saved my life. He walks in and I was like, well, I mean, as long as you're here, you might as well look around. He sits down on my living room couch. Who sits down on the living room couch with their maintenance guy. What's going on? And he's like, telling you about your family. I'm like, what? But I'd been reading about mycotoxins and thought maybe there was an issue with my older daughter. And he said, I often find it behind the wall of the kid most affected. And he took a flashlight to my daughter's wall. And by the way, now I know that that is actually the standard protocol. That's what mold assessors are supposed to do. They are trained to interview their clients first because often they find the mold according to the symptoms of the people in the house. It is related to health. Their job is to determine habitability and to find the health hazards. So we opened that wall, it was full of black. It was stachybotrys. And cleaned it up. Husband says, we're good. And I just thought, if it's there, where else is it? And I had an expert come. There was a flashing problem at the roof. The roof had not been flashed properly. And one of the experts said, I think you have an H Vac, I think you have a humidity problem. And thankfully, eventually an H vac guy, Les Wallace, told me that my H vac itself was not. Was creating humidity in the walls. And so there was humidity throughout the house and the walls in the kitchen. We found thick chitomium right behind the kitchen cabinets. So it was. By the time I left, I had a tumor. I could not function. I was shocked, shaking. I remember not being able to get my heart to stop beating fast and thinking maybe I was going to have a heart attack. Dr. Womack is this wonderful doctor who came alongside me at that time. She's the one who discovered that I had a tumor. And we slowly started putting my health back together. But when we were in that house, my two year old son was running into walls. He had. And everybody was in therapy, by the way, like everyone was in therapy. We had speech therapy, occupational therapy, handwriting therapy. Vision therapy. I just thought I was supermom during COVID recognizing that all my kids had all these extra needs all of a sudden. Well, I guess, I mean, I guess I'm, you know, I'm just a very resourceful mom who's always going to find the best thing for her kids. And I didn't recognize that there was a root cause. And we have been unraveling those health issues ever since. We have they. Two of my kids have pans. So what is that? You know, how do we address that but also try to encourage them to live a normal, healthy life because you don't want to make healing a full time job either. So how do we, you know, get to some semblance of normalcy? And we finally just moved into our safe house. We finally were able to buy a house and now it feels like we're home again.
- [63:11]
Courtney Swan
Oh, good.
- [63:12]
Christina Baer
And you know, it's funny, I'm friends with these women CEOs and we were having lunch and I said, I just feel so motivated with work. I'm like ready to go out there, talk and get out there in the world. And they looked at me and said, of course you are. I was like, what do you mean you're home? And when you feel like you're home, then you can actually look up and like, okay, there's world out there. But when you are running from place to place, dealing with sick kids, dealing with sick yourself, and for me, dealing with sick clients, it's. It's overwhelming and it's fight or flight all the time. And I just encourage all of us and our clients to kind of find home, whatever that is. And maybe it's not a literal home, but like, can we get back to center so that we can move out in strength?
- [64:10]
Courtney Swan
You just put into words exactly how I have been feeling since January. And I'm so excited that we're moving into our new home in two weeks because I have never felt more unstable in my whole life. Wow. Oh my gosh. I'm so happy that you finally have that feeling, because it is. Unless if someone has been there, I don't think you can truly communicate it to them. But it is so. It's so destabilizing. Like I just have felt chaotic in the last couple months.
- [64:38]
Christina Baer
What was it like for you to learn that your home was poisoning you?
- [64:46]
Courtney Swan
That's a great question. You know, I don't think that I had. I would be curious to know what Hector's feeling was. Let me explain. Why is. Because when I figured that out My brain works a little bit differently in the sense that I have been trained for the last 20 years or so because of the work that I do and because of the interviews I do and everything that I talk about and I learn about. I knew that mold toxicity was a potential. I had just never been through it. Personally. I've heard stories, I've seen friends that go through it. I've talked to doctors about it. So I don't think I had as much of a visceral reaction. In fact, Hector and I, basically, every home that we've been in, he was joking that I have, like, an eye for it anyway. So my point is, is that for me, I was like, oh, this makes perfect sense now. I felt relieved, if I'm being honest, because I was feeling really intense symptoms that I didn't know where they were coming from. And I had my midwife telling me, this is not normal. You should be past this point in pregnancy and the symptoms that you're having are not traditional pregnancy symptoms, is what I was told. And so I was going, what is going on with me? And so for me, when I found out, I was actually relieved.
- [66:02]
Christina Baer
Do you remember how scary Covid was when in the beginning you were wiping down your groceries? Covid was everywhere. Where, where, where would you be exposed to it? You were scared to go out. This is the reverse. You're scared to be home.
- [66:20]
Courtney Swan
Yep.
- [66:21]
Christina Baer
Where is it? And we during COVID and. And for those of us who live through that, home is where we're supposed to be safe.
- [66:28]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [66:28]
Christina Baer
So now home is unsafe. Now what?
- [66:32]
Courtney Swan
There was a feeling of that after we found out, and there was the initial relief that I had of like, okay, now I know where my symptoms are coming from and I know what to do about it. Then there was that fear that Hector just mentioned it. I'm going to reiterate it really fast because Hector doesn't have a microphone, and I don't know how much that got caught on, but he basically was saying that it was terrifying because there was a invisible enemy in the home. Where is it? We couldn't initially find it because we just found it in air samples. And then there was this fear of, is it in every room? What room is it? Do we need to be avoiding the whole house? Is it on our furniture? Is it on our clothes? And then. Yeah. And then I was sharing that fear with him as well, where we were going, oh, my gosh, where is it in the house? Where was it in the house? And we were living there. And then me being Pregnant was a whole other thing that, you know, I've been working through, being concerned about being exposed to my, to my baby. So, yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. Scary. And then, and you think about it like being in your home is just concerning. So your story is what made you really want to get into this. And then you started, you created your whole law firm around. Is it around mold specifically or just environmental toxins?
- [67:43]
Christina Baer
Environmental toxins.
- [67:44]
Courtney Swan
Okay.
- [67:47]
Christina Baer
I was just going to take a case or two at the time. I was so sick and I just kind of wanted to work part time and be with my family. And hey, you know, this happened to us, maybe I can help a family or two. And that first week CNBC did the story, my 13 year old had created a website. I got a thousand inquiries.
- [68:08]
Courtney Swan
Wow.
- [68:09]
Christina Baer
And I remember them coming through my email and they were just, you know, like this. And I was like, how do you create? How do you have intake? How does a firm have intake? How do they deal with these inquiries? What system do you need? What people do you need? And one of those calls was from Jamie Simic, a very brave woman in Hawaii who saw the story, someone had given her the story, and she watched it and she was like, that's what I need. And she didn't even know that I had just left the U.S. attorney's office. So unbeknownst to her, I was really the perfect person for that, for that Red Hill case. Because I was sick myself. I understood it, I knew what they were going through and I knew how to litigate. And I was willing to, I was willing to. And of course, I think I was naive in a lot of ways at that time too. I was just like on this crusade, but I'm still on the crusade four years later. And now my vision is so much bigger because when I was sick, lawyers did not return my call. And you know, there's this guy here in San Antonio who does wrongful death cases. And I emailed him and he, he has mold on his website. I emailed him, I found his, like direct email. I called him, I called his office. No one returned my call, not even a call back to say, hey, he's not taking cases or he's not interested in your case, or I was a fellow lawyer, I was in ausa, reaching out. And I was sad and rejected and mad. And I thought, you know what? He can have all the dead people. I'm going to litigate claims for people who are alive. And if you call our office, no matter where you are in the country, we return the call. Even if you don't have a case, we have an option for a resource call. And we'll tell you how to find a mold assessor and we'll send you the resources. I wish I had known. I have this vision that everyone in this country who is poisoned at home should have a number to call. And that's what we're working towards. I mean, currently everyone has a number to call. They can call our office, but we want to find lawyers in every state. And we currently have half the states covered. And it can be mold, it can be toxic water, it can be gas. We have some very sad gas cases. Right. It can be carbon monoxide. There are a lot of different forms, ways, sadly, that your house can kill you or hurt you. So if you're poisoned at home, we wanna, we want you to have a number to call.
- [71:00]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, that's really helpful. And obviously we're gonna put your website and everything in the show notes because that's, I would say, the number one biggest question that I get from people in my DMs. Well, actually, I would say that actually it's the second one. The number one I get is, and I want to hear from you, actually, your answer is, how did you know to test for mold? Is the first question I get. And I'm getting, I'm just getting bombarded with DMS about this. And then the second one is, okay, I found mold. Now what do I do about it? Who do I call? So what would you say? What are you seeing with most of your clients? How are they. How are they even knowing to test for mold? What are they seeing in their homes and then maybe in their symptoms as well?
- [71:41]
Christina Baer
Well, I get egregious cases. These are landlords who turned a blind eye. People got very sick and, and you know, they, they connect the dots maybe because they can see it, there's a leak that hasn't been fixed, etc. So that's a very common case for me. But just in general, in the country, if you, if you're worried about whether your house is mold. Oh my gosh. Whether you're worried or not, do a test. Why not just make sure you're living in a safe house. Almost every house might has like some problem that is either a problem now or could develop a problem. So whether it's through negligence or not, maybe you didn't water your plant very well and it spilled. Not every case involves negligence, but a lot of houses have an issue, one issue or another. So have someone come and test and Fix the issue before it becomes worse. Any sort of water damage can develop mold. So we want to make sure we address water damage right away. If there's been a leak and you haven't addressed it right away or it's grown over time, test it. Well, first of all, remove the water damage because you always want to find the source of the mold, but you want to remove any water damage whether there's mold or not. So it doesn't grow mold.
- [73:05]
Courtney Swan
Yep.
- [73:07]
Christina Baer
But if you have molded, make sure that you have identified the source, stopped the source, and importantly, do a full inspection of your whole house. Yeah. Because if you're, you know, we could have stopped at my daughter's room. And in fact, the remediation company was like, well, you're done. You're good. So.
- [73:31]
Courtney Swan
And it was everywhere in your house, right?
- [73:32]
Christina Baer
It was. It was. The thickest amount was in our kitchen.
- [73:36]
Courtney Swan
Oh, yeah, that's right. You said that.
- [73:37]
Christina Baer
So if we had. And we ultimately ended up removing the bricks on our house. But I don't want to scare the listeners because not every house is as bad as mine. And don't turn a blind eye to it because almost always it can be fixed and almost always you can stop a problem before it develops. So you want to know what you're dealing with. If you're in a house that is making you sick, please leave the house for any period of time. I have a client, Brooke, who died at 31 in the house. I told her to leave. Why? She was waiting for the H Vac guy to come fix was their problem. They hadn't fixed it. She had asked multiple times. They knew there was a problem. They hadn't fixed it. She was very upset about that. This was her first house. She was not going to leave until they fixed the problem. They don't get to determine whether she leaves her house or not. You can see why she felt that way.
- [74:37]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [74:38]
Christina Baer
And she died from what?
- [74:41]
Courtney Swan
What was the. Obviously from the mold. But what did it.
- [74:44]
Christina Baer
She had a. She had a. I think it was a cardiac event. So, you know, mold attacks the immune system. So look, had. She had heart issues, probably. Right. It's not. I'm not saying it causes death for everybody.
- [75:03]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [75:04]
Christina Baer
But whatever someone has, whatever's lurking there, if you attack the immune system, if you create systemic inflammation, it's going to trigger that thing.
- [75:12]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [75:12]
Christina Baer
If you're inclined to eds. Right. It can trigger eds. It can. The, you know, the genetics may load the gun, but the environment pulls the trigger. So just get out for a little bit. Clear your head and make a safety plan. Because you may think that you can't afford to leave, and that may be true, but you also may not be able to afford to stay. And if you stay and get sicker and sicker, then sometimes you can't work, and then you can't earn income for your family. So these are not easy questions, especially for my military families. And I just always want to give the caveat that it doesn't have to be immediate.
- [76:01]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [76:02]
Christina Baer
Make a safety plan so that you can move in the direction of safety. Maybe right now you can only get air purifiers. Okay. Get air purifiers and then make a plan. But if you come to me and you tell me that your kids have been hospitalized multiple times because of your house, I won't even take your case. Yeah, because the jury's gonna look at that and say you're putting your kid in danger. Right. At some.
- [76:29]
Courtney Swan
I have.
- [76:29]
Christina Baer
I have clients who have lived in a tent in their backyard. I know that sounds extreme, but for that client, that's how they got.
- [76:38]
Courtney Swan
Well, Hector said, how do you know which test is the right one to do? Which is snake oil, what's not?
- [76:45]
Christina Baer
So if you reach out to my office, I'll send you some resources for how to find a mold assessor. But the question that I want to ask is, is this a mold assessor who works with sick families? Because if they work with sick families, they're actually trying to find it. I had a mold assessor coming to my office. I will not mention their name, but they were coming to clear the office. I call them clearance testers. They took an air sample right at my desk while there were six air scrubbers running around the entire office space, including an air purifier in my room. They didn't even turn them off. You're testing the air with air scrubbers going. I mean. And I looked at the man and I said, you know, you're. I don't think you're going to get an accurate result because you have an air. I was very calm, and he looked at me and he said, ma', am, this is industry standard.
- [77:47]
Courtney Swan
Where does resilience actually come from? A lot of us assume it's just discipline or how hard we train, but really, it comes down to what's happening at the cellular level. Because every. Every single thing your body does. Movement, strength, recovery, depends on energy. And then energy is produced by your mitochondria, which are basically the little energy factories inside your cells. As we age, those mitochondria can become less efficient. And that's when you start to notice dips in energy, strength and recovery, even if you're doing all the right things. That's why I've been really interested in Mito Pure from Timeline. It contains urolith and a which supports something called mitophagy, basically helping your body clear out damaged mitochondria and support healthier, more efficient energy production. It's about supporting the foundation of how your body actually creates energy. For me, it's really about protecting strength and resilience long term. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mito Pure now starts at 79. When you go to timeline.com real foodology so make sure you go to timeline.com real Foodology.
- [78:50]
Christina Baer
Wow, the level of rage in Christina Baer with this like man telling me what industry standard is after. I have dedicated this over educated mind for four years to understanding the industry standard. There is no industry standard that allows you to test while air purifiers are going. What industry would allow that? Of course not. Right? Of course not. And that there's. There's another man standing at my door who looked at me and he said, ma', am, we've been doing this a long time and we know what we're doing, but here's what's upsetting. He's right. They have been doing it a long time and they know exactly what they're doing. They are coming in to clear a space whether it's safe or not. And so most.
- [79:35]
Courtney Swan
And if we're working for the landlord.
- [79:36]
Christina Baer
Exactly. If you are living. So your first reaction is going to be, hey, you're going to ask your landlord, can you hire someone to test? Don't do that because those testers are clearance testers and they're going to come in the middle of the room and they're going to clear it. They might even. I've heard of, this has happened in my cases. They run an air scrubber and they tell the person, oh no, we cleaned the air and then they test it and it's safe.
- [79:59]
Courtney Swan
They did this to us. The landlords literally did that to us.
- [80:03]
Christina Baer
I mean it is, it's outrageous. So you want to find a mold assessor who works with sick families and is actually looking for mold. And then they're going to come in and they're going to do a full home assessment and they're going to do what, what Tim Taylor did. They're going to take out a flashlight and please ask them to look in the H Vac, because that is what is often missed. Some of these. Some of these mold accessories say, well, I'm not. I'm not licensed. Well, find someone who's licensed, because you got to. You got to check your H Vac. And so often it's. The H vac itself is just pure black. And it doesn't matter. You know, you might not have water damage, and you could miss it if you don't look directly in the H Vac.
- [80:45]
Courtney Swan
So this is what Hector and I learned, was that a lot of these companies will come in and they'll just do an air sample. And we also learned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we learned the very first test that we did, because we didn't know any better, we just did an air sample. But the stachybotrys actually came back in the air sample, which is why the guy was freaking out so bad. The mold assessor that called us, because he said, if Stachybotrys is showing up in the air, you have a really big problem is the way that he described it to us, because you don't generally find it in the air, but obviously you can, because we did. And it would maybe explain why the other tests that our landlord did where they didn't find it, because they. One, they were actively trying, I think, not to find it. And also, it was. A lot of it was behind our shower. And from what Hector and I understand is that we had our shower running every day, so we were wet. You know, we were getting it wet. And by the time our landlords went into test, we hadn't been living in the house for three or four weeks. And so the shower wasn't wet, and it probably wasn't kicking it all up in the air is what I'm understanding. So what we had to do is we had to find somebody. What you just said was that. Who was willing to actually go look in the H vac, and he can also look in the walls. And actually, our guy didn't do this, but he was telling us that, like, what they can do, which some companies were saying that they wouldn't do this. But again, he didn't do this in our house. But what he was saying, if he felt like he needed to, is that he could put, like, a tiny pinhole. You know, he doesn't need to knock down a wall, just a tiny pinhole, just to get a little camera in there to see in the walls. And when we were looking for somebody that could actually find the mold for us, we called Multiple companies. Because many of them said, oh, no, we don't go in the H Vac and we don't look in the wall. We just do an air sample. And we were like, we need you to find it.
- [82:30]
Christina Baer
So for those companies, you know, I. I got that guy a deposition. I ask him, you know that mold assessor who tests in the middle of the room? I say, where is mold usually found in a house?
- [82:40]
Courtney Swan
In the walls.
- [82:42]
Christina Baer
They'll always tell me in the walls. Usually behind a wall in the H vac or in the H vac, but usually they'll tell me, behind a wall. Well, if you're looking for mold behind a wall, are you more likely to find it in the middle of the room?
- [82:57]
Courtney Swan
Exactly, exactly.
- [82:59]
Christina Baer
Or closer to the wall. And, you know, they kind of give this, like, sheepish look at me close to the wall. Which, by the way, when you're sleeping. And this is how I tested my new house. To make sure it was safe. I asked wonderful mold assessor Josh Rashaw to take air samples right at our pillows. Which is close to a wall. Do you see?
- [83:25]
Courtney Swan
Yep. Yep.
- [83:27]
Christina Baer
The wall's behind me, farther away. But the air sample close to the wall is what found one spore of stachybotrys in my daughter's room.
- [83:38]
Courtney Swan
Wow.
- [83:39]
Christina Baer
Only one spore Opened it up, and it was completely black.
- [83:43]
Courtney Swan
Wow.
- [83:44]
Christina Baer
So. But her head was by that wall for Courtney. Eight years.
- [83:53]
Courtney Swan
Eight years.
- [83:55]
Christina Baer
Eight years her head was by that wall.
- [83:57]
Courtney Swan
Well, it makes me sad.
- [83:58]
Christina Baer
And, you know, the NIH has recognized now that mold causes cognitive harm.
- [84:02]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [84:04]
Christina Baer
What's. What happened with your brain?
- [84:07]
Courtney Swan
I know.
- [84:08]
Christina Baer
And so, you know, same thing with my. My head was by a wall. Right. My son's head was by a wall. But my two kids who were most effective, they happened to be. Happened to be sleeping next to the two flashing defects that were allowing water to penetrate into their respective walls. Now, of course, the whole house was toxic and the kitchen was toxic and all that, but isn't that interesting?
- [84:34]
Courtney Swan
Yeah, that's really interesting.
- [84:36]
Christina Baer
So we don't. It's really dangerous, and it really affects your brain, and it affects your immune system, and it affects every system because it attacks the. It attacks the immune system and creates systemic inflammation, and that then cascades in all these other ways.
- [84:55]
Courtney Swan
Well, can't being exposed to black mold make you go crazy?
- [84:58]
Christina Baer
Well, that's. I mean, when you're. When you're asked crazy. Yes. It causes neurological damage. It causes neurological damage. Causes the word finding that you're talking about. Right.
- [85:11]
Courtney Swan
It.
- [85:11]
Christina Baer
It causes short term Memory loss, but mostly. And you can see this on Qeegs, mostly, it causes this fog and it makes you feel slow, like you're living a little bit in a daze and you can't respond quickly. So I would be at an oral argument and I'd be asked a question I couldn't answer fast enough. Yeah, I felt dumb. And I'm usually a smart person. I was a smart person, so I was used to talking to smart people and talking fast and they're talking fast and understanding it all and kind of like. And then all of a sudden I felt dumb. But I say that what I lost in brain power, I gained an empathy. And now I have a superpower of connecting with sick communities and sick families that I didn't have before. But it is sad to see your brain change.
- [86:10]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [86:10]
Christina Baer
And it affects, it's going to affect you long term. You know, I'm not saying you personally, but.
- [86:16]
Courtney Swan
No, but you just mean people who
- [86:19]
Christina Baer
have especially, you know, eight years sleeping next to Stacky Botrys.
- [86:25]
Courtney Swan
Oh, I know it makes me sad. How big is the mold problem in the US Right now, do you think?
- [86:31]
Christina Baer
Huge. But here's why. Because we have those landlords saying that they, they're not going to use the word mold. That's their policy. That's the policy of all these military housing companies too.
- [86:45]
Courtney Swan
And it's the policy, let me, let me understand, is the policy for just standard personal owners, landlords. Are you talking more about in the, what do you, what's the word for it?
- [86:56]
Christina Baer
I'm talking about, about apartment complexes.
- [86:59]
Courtney Swan
Okay.
- [86:59]
Christina Baer
Like industry standards and. Okay, big, big companies like Lend Lease and Balfour Beatty and Michaels. These are just some of the companies I've sued. You know, they're, they're very big institutions. And Graystar, okay, big housing companies and those big housing companies often have a policy not to use the word mold. So there's one military housing company that I have not sued actually, but they would replace the word mold with a number. So none of their housing records had the word mold. Well, that was really convenient because in military housing you're supposed to give the new tenant a seven year maintenance history. And the whole point of the seven year maintenance history was to identify safety concerns and really to identify mold. Right. Well, lo and behold, I don't have a single client who's gotten a seven year history that discloses mold. Maybe water, maybe a leak. But how about an entire wall full of mold because it's saturated to 90%. I had a landlord tell one of my clients a military Landlord. This is Balfour Beatty. I'm not afraid to use names. It's true. Water was coming out of a socket. She has toddlers. A toddler. They literally told her that the solution was to remove the socket protector and let it air out.
- [88:37]
Courtney Swan
Oh, my God.
- [88:40]
Christina Baer
We took pictures of the water coming out. We said that. That was one of the few times where we really said, you gotta leave now. This is not safe. This is really not safe. Because your kid could.
- [88:52]
Courtney Swan
Exactly.
- [88:53]
Christina Baer
I mean, this is a fire hazard, right?
- [88:55]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [88:55]
Christina Baer
Anytime you have water and electricity, you just. You gotta get out. So for her, our inspector did say, get out right now. Otherwise we talk about a safety plan and time and whatever. But she then went back to the housing company and she showed them our pictures of the water coming through. I could see it. And they said, no, no, it's. We haven't identified any mold. So it's. You. You need to stay in the house. They wouldn't give her alternative living. Well, they haven't identified the mold because they haven't looked in the wall. The mold's behind the wall. Of course it's there. If there's water coming out of the socket. All of these houses have. In that particular neighborhood, have walls that are saturated with water because they put on these metal roofs, and they didn't. They didn't add the appropriate ventilation. So you're in humid, you know, and they added an H vac so that you're in humid Florida, that the walls are condensating and literally dripping. And ceilings are falling down in those houses. Literally ceilings are falling down. And you know what they did for the ceilings?
- [90:06]
Courtney Swan
No, what?
- [90:07]
Christina Baer
Well, you know, what's the first thing you're supposed to do if there's wet material?
- [90:12]
Courtney Swan
You want to get rid of it, right?
- [90:13]
Christina Baer
You remove the wet material.
- [90:14]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [90:15]
Christina Baer
Because you don't want it to fester and become mold. This is like.
- [90:17]
Courtney Swan
That's, like, not wrong. Yeah, exactly.
- [90:20]
Christina Baer
So rather than removing the wet materials, they put these wooden strips, like shiplap painted the same color as the ceiling.
- [90:30]
Courtney Swan
Oh, no. And just blocked it in.
- [90:33]
Christina Baer
Hold the wet ceiling in place so that it wouldn't fall down on these families. Because so many houses had so many ceilings had fallen down. Fallen in. That was their solution. They went around every one of these houses and they put in the shiplap.
- [90:47]
Courtney Swan
That's crazy.
- [90:49]
Christina Baer
This is Balfour Beatty. That's what they do. Oh, my God. So if you have landlords, you said, is there a mold problem in our country? Yes. Because you have landlords like that. And there was A time in our country when lawyers weren't bringing personal injury claims for mold, and that's because they weren't covered by insurance. And there's still an exception in these insurance contracts. And I say, like, okay, see you on Tuesday. I just bring the claim anyway. But there were lawyers who were not bringing these claims for a long time. And don't you see what happens when you don't. When, when there's a season even of no claims being brought, then the law is not being enforced, then there's going to be, you're going to turn, you know, more landlords turning a blind eye because that's their incentive, or more contractors or builders who don't care about mold because no one's holding them accountable for that and their insurance company doesn't cover it, and so they don't worry about it. And so there was a season where builders and landlords didn't worry about it. And my firm is here saying, start worrying about it. Start paying attention, because you have a duty to pay attention. You have, you have an obligation to build safe houses. You have an out. People have the right to expect a safe house.
- [92:12]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [92:13]
Christina Baer
When they buy a house. People have the right to expect a safe apartment when they rent an apartment. And in order to provide a safe apartment or build a safe house, you have to pay attention to the environment.
- [92:24]
Courtney Swan
Are newer homes more likely to have mold problems than older ones?
- [92:27]
Christina Baer
Yes.
- [92:29]
Courtney Swan
Why is that?
- [92:30]
Christina Baer
Because building material, it's in part building material, but it's in part these new industry standards or incentives to create very tight homes.
- [92:42]
Courtney Swan
Oh, yeah.
- [92:43]
Christina Baer
So my home was built with spray foam. Well, if you're going to have spray foam, you need to make sure that that H Vac is exactly properly sized and is it has extra dehumidification because otherwise the moisture is going to grow into the spray foam, which is what happened in my house. And that's happening in so many houses because the H Vac companies aren't properly trained. They're putting in H Vacs that are not properly sized. They're not adding the dehumidification that's required, and then they're building these, these toxic bubbles and they're putting them up so fast. And so the house. House may be fine when you buy it, but two years in, there's mold in every wall because it's condensating. And the problem in those houses that I have is even if it's something innocuous like a toilet leak or something, well, it's going to become toxic because that house doesn't let the house breathe, and it's not bringing enough air in from outside most of the time. So if it's not allowing that toilet to dry and it's keeping that air from the house inside, then it's going to become toxic that much faster. So I have a problem. It's not just the H vac, but it's anything else that happens in the house. You buy a new couch and there's VOCs. Well, if the house isn't breathing, then you're in this toxic bubble or a bubble that can become toxic really fast. What you have is, especially in Texas, you have contractors who are not supervising their projects very well. So in my particular house, for example, the roofer was not there at the same time as the mason, and they need to be there together to build the chimney because you put brick and then you put metal, and then you put brick and metal, and that's how you waterproof a chimney. So they didn't do that. The roofer told my landlord, and not my landlord, the builder and the foreman, the mason built the chimney without me. It's not flashed. We have to redo it. The foreman told him rig it. And so on the outside, it's rigged. So Bob, my lawyer has that roof ridge opposition and says, okay, did you know that rigging it the way you rigged it, which was rigged to pass inspection, that's fraudulent. Right. That's concealment. That's deceptive. Did you know that that was going to cause water intrusion? Yes. Did you know that water intrusion causes water damage? Yes. Did you know that water damage causes mold? Yes. Did you know that mold hurts people? Yes. Well, you just poisoned this family.
- [95:44]
Courtney Swan
Oh, there needs to be more education.
- [95:45]
Christina Baer
You didn't mean to. Right. But that was the foreseeable result of rigging the chimney. The foreseeable result of rigging the chimney was that this little girl in this pink and white room that was pink when we bought it would get sick. And you knew that.
- [96:08]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [96:09]
Christina Baer
And that's what the law is for. I don't think that my builder. My builder's a nice guy. I never use his name. Really nice guy. He didn't mean to poison my family, but he made choices that poisoned my family.
- [96:25]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [96:26]
Christina Baer
And part of bringing the case is education. I don't think that roofer is going to make that kind of shortcut again. This family got really sick. I don't think my builder is going to use spray foam like that and an H vac that didn't dehumidify. I think he's going to be more careful. And that's what the law is for. We want people to be more careful. You know, we want caution. I want you to assume that the water is not safe. It's. Before you tell them it is safe, I want you to exercise caution. I want you to be safe. And that's what it is all about. And when contractors are cutting costs and cutting corners, they are making all of us less safe.
- [97:18]
Courtney Swan
Hector's asking, what do we think the solution is to this?
- [97:24]
Christina Baer
I think the solution is education. And you talk about this a lot on your podcast and in your messaging, but you educate about where the money goes. And there was a season here in our country where all the money went to influencing the CDC and others to say that mold didn't make people sick or that mold didn't cause brain damage in particular. Right. Or hemorrhaging like we saw with babies. And there was a man named Bruce Kelman who was an expert for the defense, who wrote a book. I mean, wrote an article for acom, didn't disclose his conflict. That article was then withdrawn. But the Manhattan Institute paid him to make this article that had been withdrawn into a paper for the chambers of commerce, for the laypeople. And in that, he said that mold illness was junk science. He used the word junk science. Well, that paper has been used in every litigation ever since by the defense. And think about this. There's a generation of lawyers, a generation of judges, and a generation of contractors and a generation of doctors who were all taught, according to these defense experts, that mold illness was junk science.
- [98:54]
Courtney Swan
Yeah.
- [98:56]
Christina Baer
So I think educating about the real health impact of mold and that it does cause brain damage and that it does cause immune problems, and it does cause autoimmune problems, and it does cause cancer, and it does cause death. Well, now. Now I think we're going to. People are going to start paying attention and start being more careful if they actually believe it. And I think sharing your story, sharing my story, is part of that. Bringing our voices to the narrative. It's harder to call me crazy when I have two Ivy League degrees. So I actually thought that I was kind of going to be immune from the crazy accusation, but I wasn't. Fine. Bring it on. You can call me crazy all you want, but I'm going to lend this influence, this education I have, to this effort, to this education effort, and I hope that that will make a difference. But let me end with this. There may be lawyers who don't believe it, judges who don't believe it, Western doctors who don't believe it because they were influenced. But you know, who does believe it? The people. When I do focus groups, when I go and pick juries and I say, how many of you believe that mold causes harm? Every one of them raises their hand. How many of you believe that mold causes brain damage? Every one of them raises their hand. Can mold kill you? They know it can because it's happened to them or someone they know. So I have great hope in our country that this will change, because as long as we can present these cases to the people and we can allow the people to enforce the safety rules, the incentives are going to change, and people are going to be aware, and there's going to be accountability, and that's what the law is for.
- [100:53]
Courtney Swan
I love this so much. This is why I wanted to bring you on, because we really wanted to drive that message home that the law is on our side and we're using it to our advantage in order to hopefully create changes that actually really protect people and protect their health. Because we live in a time where many of us are waking up to all of these issues. For example, the glyphosate. And we're waking up to mold, and we're waking up to all this stuff that's been causing harm that, you know, it just humanity. We didn't know all these things. Now we're learning. We're doing better, and we need to make sure that the law is catching up and protecting us from all of this. And we're. We're fighting hard to make sure that happens. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been amazing. Okay, please.
- [101:32]
Christina Baer
Thank you.
- [101:33]
Courtney Swan
Yes. Please let everybody know where they can find you. I also just. I wanted to share this, too, just really quickly. I think you already know this, but I don't know if you remember. Well, the reason that I reached out to you about my mold case was because I posted on Instagram that we were having an issue. And I got bombarded so much with your name. I got emails from friends. I got text messages from friends. I got so many DMS from people that were like, you have to reach out to Christina Bear. She's a badass, and what she's doing is exactly what you were talking about. And so just want to say the people love you.
- [102:10]
Christina Baer
Oh, thank you.
- [102:11]
Courtney Swan
And they know that you're doing really good work. So thank you so much for the work that you're doing. And please let everybody know where they can find you. And we'll also put your website in the show notes, too.
- [102:19]
Christina Baer
You can find us at well, Law. And the best way to reach out directly is through the website. You can, you can put a submission in there and we will call you back. If you reach out to us, you will have a call if you want, anywhere in the country. That's my guarantee to you because I want you to have a number to call. And we're raising up an army of lawyers. We have about half of the states covered. If you have a viable case from another state, we will try to find you a lawyer and we can do that through our central office. And then of course, in Texas, we're taking all the cases. Deceptive trade practices claims. Here we go. Thanks.
- [102:59]
Courtney Swan
Yay. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for listening to the Real Foodology Podcast. This is a Wellness Loud production produced by Drake Peterson. Theme song is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app. For more shows by my team, go to wellnessloud.com see you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and doesn't constitute a provider patient relationship. I am a nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist. As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first. Hey guys, I'm Alana Dunn and I'm the host of Seeing Other People. As an early Hinge employee, a modern dater, and now a fiance, I know the dating world may be a little too intimately.
- [103:53]
Christina Baer
I'm here to make you feel less
- [103:55]
Courtney Swan
alone in your dating journey.
- [103:56]
Christina Baer
Whatever it may look like.
- [103:57]
Courtney Swan
Look like.
- [103:58]
Christina Baer
Don't have a date for tonight?
- [103:59]
Courtney Swan
No problem.
- [104:00]
Christina Baer
Whether you're looking for love or just want to laugh and commiserate with others, tune in to seeing other people as
- [104:06]
Courtney Swan
we explore the roller coaster that is the ever evolving world of dating.