Is Your Makeup Giving You Cancer? | LowToxLawyer

Summary

In-Depth Summary of "Is Your Makeup Giving You Cancer?" | Realfoodology Podcast

Episode Title: Is Your Makeup Giving You Cancer?
Host: Courtney Swan
Guest: Whitney DeBona, Attorney and LowTox Lawyer
Release Date: June 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of the Realfoodology podcast, host Courtney Swan converses with Whitney DeBona, an attorney and advocate for safer beauty products. The discussion centers around the hidden dangers lurking in everyday makeup and skincare items, the regulatory shortcomings of the beauty industry, and the extensive litigation surrounding contaminated cosmetic products. This summary captures the essential points, illuminating insights, and poignant conclusions drawn during their hour-long dialogue.

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Asbestos Contamination in Talc-Based Products

Whitney begins by exposing the alarming presence of asbestos fibers in talc-based cosmetics. She explains how talc mines often contain asbestos, leading to contamination in products like makeup compacts and baby powder.

Whitney DeBona [00:02]:
“In the tip of your finger, you can have up to like a trillion asbestos fibers in that little tiny space... you could be potentially breathing in a trillion asbestos fibers if it's contaminated.”

This contamination poses severe health risks, including mesothelioma—a fatal cancer traditionally associated with occupational exposure but increasingly diagnosed in younger individuals using such products.

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Regulatory Landscape: US vs. Europe

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the stark differences between the United States and European Union regulations regarding cosmetics.

Whitney DeBona [14:00]:
“In the US, the FDA doesn't really regulate cosmetics. They put it off on the manufacturers and say you have to make sure that your products are safe. But there's no... they don't have to like submit a bunch of safety data or testing or do anything.”

Contrastingly, Europe enforces stricter regulations, banning over 2,400 ingredients compared to the US’s minimal list. This disparity leaves American consumers vulnerable to potentially harmful substances that are restricted elsewhere.

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Problematic Ingredients in Beauty Products

Whitney identifies key ingredients consumers should vigilantly avoid:

• Talc: Due to its potential asbestos contamination.
• Parabens and Phthalates: Preservatives known as endocrine disruptors that can interfere with hormonal balance.
• Synthetic Fragrances: Often a complex mix of undisclosed chemicals, many of which are synthetic and potentially harmful.

Whitney DeBona [05:38]:
“I’m always looking to avoid talc. I’m looking to avoid anything with parabens or phthalates, anything with synthetic fragrance. I would say those are really like the big ones to look for.”

The lack of transparency in labeling, especially with terms like "fragrance," obscures the actual chemical composition, making it challenging for consumers to make informed choices.

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Litigation and Johnson & Johnson's Talc Cases

Whitney discusses the extensive legal battles against Johnson & Johnson concerning their talc-based baby powders.

Whitney DeBona [28:19]:
“Johnson and Johnson... they can open up a shell corporation, assign all of their liabilities to that shell corporation, and then they file for bankruptcy on that company. They’re on their third bankruptcy attempt for these cases.”

These legal maneuvers have delayed justice for countless victims and perpetuated the distribution of contaminated products, highlighting the aggressive tactics large corporations employ to evade accountability.

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Other Products of Concern: Deodorants and Tampons

The discussion broadens to include other everyday products like deodorants and tampons, which also harbor harmful chemicals.

Whitney DeBona [16:41]:
“I think deodorant is a bigger... because I think what you put in your armpits... can absorb up to, like, 100% of whatever you're putting in your armpit because it is such a sensitive area.”

Additionally, conventional tampons often contain rayon and may be exposed to glyphosate, increasing the risk of toxic exposure and health issues like toxic shock syndrome (TSS).

Whitney DeBona [22:07]:
“If you just use 100% cotton, your risk for TSS becomes almost non-existent. But many brands don’t fully comply, substituting with synthetic materials.”

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Recommendations for Safer Products

Whitney and Courtney discuss various brands that prioritize cleaner ingredients, though they acknowledge the challenges in ensuring complete safety.

Whitney DeBona:
“Brands like Esos, Henry Rose, RMS, Ilia, Kosas, Tower 28... are making strides in cleaner beauty products, but vigilance is still required.”

They emphasize the importance of researching and selecting products from brands that offer transparency and exclude known harmful ingredients.

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Botox and Fillers: Risks and Alternatives

A significant segment addresses the dangers associated with Botox and facial fillers, questioning their safety and long-term health impacts.

Whitney DeBona [64:43]:
“I have had so many women reach out to me since that saying, I got Botox. And then I had all of these symptoms...”

Whitney shares her personal experiences and concerns about autoimmune responses triggered by these cosmetic procedures, highlighting a lack of proper screening and awareness.

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Consumer Challenges and the Need for Better Regulation

The episode underscores the overwhelming burden placed on consumers to navigate an unregulated beauty industry. Whitney and Courtney express frustration with the lack of oversight and the difficulty in identifying truly safe products, especially for those with limited financial resources.

Courtney:
“No one is perfect... But we have to do this. We're going crazy because we're like, oh, my God, how do I find the haircut? And then I have to scan everything at the grocery store.”

They advocate for stricter regulations and greater accountability from manufacturers to ensure the safety of cosmetic products.

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Conclusion: Advocacy for Safer Beauty

In wrapping up, Whitney emphasizes the crucial role of consumer pressure and legal actions in driving change within the beauty industry. She urges listeners to prioritize their health by selecting cleaner products whenever possible and to support movements advocating for stricter regulations to protect public health.

Whitney DeBona:
“We have to keep putting the pressure on food, on our cosmetics. We have to buy the cleaner options when we can. It’s hard because it is more expensive, but it has a trickle-down effect.”

The episode serves as a call to action for consumers to become more informed and vigilant about the products they use daily, highlighting the interconnectedness of health, regulation, and corporate accountability.

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Notable Quotes:

• Whitney DeBona [00:02]:
  “You could be potentially breathing in a trillion asbestos fibers if it's contaminated.”

• Whitney DeBona [14:00]:
  “In the US, the FDA doesn't really regulate cosmetics... there's no... they don't have to like submit a bunch of safety data or testing or do anything.”

• Whitney DeBona [05:38]:
  “I’m always looking to avoid talc. I’m looking to avoid anything with parabens or phthalates, anything with synthetic fragrance.”

• Whitney DeBona [28:19]:
  “Johnson and Johnson... they can open up a shell corporation... they keep doing this over and over again, clearly in bad faith.”

• Whitney DeBona [64:43]:
  “I have had so many women reach out to me since that saying, I got Botox. And then I had all of these symptoms...”

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This episode of Realfoodology serves as an eye-opener, shedding light on the invisible dangers within our beauty products and the urgent need for systemic change to safeguard public health. Whitney DeBona’s insights provide listeners with the knowledge to make informed decisions and advocate for a safer, more transparent beauty industry.

Transcript

[Courtney]

On today's episode of the Real Foodology.

[Whitney DeBona]

Podcast, in the tip of your finger, you can have up to like a trillion asbestos fibers in that little tiny space. So you know, if it's in your makeup compact or whatever and you're brushing that and blowing on your brush and that's all going up into your airspace, you could be potentially breathing in a trillion asbestos fibers if it's contaminated.

[Courtney]

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of the Real Foodology podcast. On today's episode, I sit down with Whitney DeBona. She is a attorney and advocate for safer beauty. And y' all, this episode was so jam packed with all of your questions. We talk about toxic makeup brands and skin care. What are the most concerning ingredients in skincare and beauty products that you want to look out for? What are the ingredients specifically that you.

[Host]

Want to look out for?

[Courtney]

What are the ones that are most concerning?

[Host]

Endocrine disruptors.

[Courtney]

We talk about dyes and fragrances. We also talk about which product is the absolute worst that you want to be staying away from. She also name some names in the craziest litigation that she has been involved in yet. And how regulated is the beauty industry? What natural deodorant does she recommend and why is it so important? What about clean products at Sephora? Are they actually really clean? And so much more. We also talk about hair care, we talk about Botox, we talk about it all and we share some of our favorite products. And you're not gonna wanna miss this episode. It was so jam packed. I can't believe that we got all of this in in one hour. If you're loving the podcast and you wanna take a moment to rate and review it, it means so much to me. It really, really does help this show. And also if you wanna find Whitney De Bona and follow her on Instagram, she's OWTOX lawyer. We'll also leave it in the show notes. And if you're loving this particular episode and you want to tag us, please tag me. Eelfoodology and lowtalks lawyer on Instagram. Thanks so much for listening. You all know that I am really into reducing my toxic burden. And that includes making sure that the air I breathe is as clean and purified as possible. The EPA has actually said that indoor air is more toxic than outdoor air, which I know sounds really shocking, but when you think about we spend so much time indoors, plus we get exposed to things from cooking inside. If you're burning candles, also our furniture off gases, all of these things can contribute to toxins in Our and most so called air purifiers are just fans with filters. Jasper though is different. In lab testing, Jasper removed 99% of mold spores and 99% of microplastics in just two hours. It's more like an air scrubber that actually cleans your air, not just circulates it. It scrubs out the stuff you can't see, like mold vocs which are those off gases from your furniture that I just mentioned and even microscopic plastic particles. And it looks really good doing it too. It looks so sexy. In my living room we're breathing all day every day. So clean air just isn't optional. Go to Jasper.com and use my link to check it out. I have it running 24 7. It's that good. Again go to Jasper. That's J A S P R co Real Foodology and use Code real foodology to save $400 today.

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[Host]

Whitney, thank you so much for coming on. I'm so excited to have you.

[Whitney DeBona]

I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

[Host]

Yeah, this is a long time coming. We've been trying to do this for a while. I was supposed to be in Florida like a couple months ago, and then that got moved and then just.

[Courtney]

It's.

[Host]

My travel schedule is nuts right now.

[Courtney]

But I'm so happy that we were.

[Host]

Able to make this work.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah, me too. This is so fun.

[Host]

So you are a lawyer. I. Let's just like, dive right into it. So you're a lawyer and you talk a lot about beauty, skin care, Botox. I want to go into all of that because it's so fascinating and I know that my audience is very curious about all this and we want to know, like, how to navigate things. What do. What do we need to avoid? How toxic is Botox? We're going to go into all of that. First and foremost. What are the most concerning ingredients that are in our makeup and beauty products? And are they being regulated?

[Whitney DeBona]

Very loosely regulated. I would say that the top, you know, questionable. There's a lot of questionable ingredients. But for me, kind of where I started diving into all of this was with talc. That was like the starting point for me. And then it's just kind of been a, like a never ending deep dive into ingredients since that, because I was representing a lot of clients who had developed mesothelioma, which is a fatal cancer that's caused from asbestos exposure. And a lot of my clients started to be younger women and even some men, but people in their 40s, 50s, not your typical kind of person that you would see with mesothelioma. Typically, you think of an older, 80s, 90s, 70s, men who worked in construction or, you know, they were auto mechanics, things like that. And so we started getting all these younger clients and we started suing all of these companies for makeup products. Like, it wasn't just baby powder and, you know, those kind of products. It was, you know, we're suing CoverGirl for face powder and things like that. And so when we. When, you know, I started taking those cases, I was like, wait a minute, like, what. What's going on here? We're suing for makeup products. And a lot of makeup products that I've used, used, you know, throughout my life. And so that was really where I started kind of diving into everything. And so talc was like the tipping point for me. And then, you know, since then, I've kind of just been researching ingredient after ingredient. And I think that the main things that I look to avoid, look to avoid in my products are going to be talc for sure. Fragrance, the synthetic fragrance, which, you know, people don't even realize there's synthetic fragrance and things like foundation and things that don't have a scent, you know, but they're putting fragrance on the label and masking all these chemicals to cut. Sometimes things can have a funny smell. So maybe they are adding some kind of whatever to. To make it smell better. But, you know, the fragrance, I think is huge. And then there's other things there's a lot of concerning preservatives. So most makeup, most cosmetic products are water based. And so whenever you have something that's water based, you have to add in preservatives to keep it from molding. And so that's really where we see a lot of things like parabens. I mean, that's a preservative and that's why they are added to these products. But we know now that, you know, the parabens are impacting our hormones. And same thing with phthalates. You know, those are added to products to really kind of make the scent last longer and make it really like seep into your body. And we now know that those are all endocrine disrupting chemicals. And so I think the biggest things, I mean, you can get really technical. And I'm still learning new things all the time, but for me, I'm always looking to avoid talc. I'm looking to avoid anything with parabens or phthalates, anything with synthetic fragrance. I would say that those are really like the big ones to look for.

[Host]

It's interesting because I feel like fragrance has become the artificial or natural flavors, like you pick your poison, either one. It's kind of one of those umbrella terms, right, where it can mean there's a bunch of different chemicals under there that are allowed to be under the umbrella of fragrance. And then the companies don't actually have to name what they've put in there, right?

[Whitney DeBona]

That's correct. And you know, when I first kind of learned that fragrance on a label like that does, I mean, there could be thousands of chemicals in that fragrance and they don't have to tell us what is in there. And so I think that that's kind of the most troubling thing is, you know, we don't even know what's in this fragrance. And so in a lot of that, when you see that blanket term on a label, usually it does contain parabens and phthalates. That's all just kind of like mixed in there into the fragrance. So, you know, you really have to just be careful because you don't know what's in there. You don't know what you're putting on your body. And they don't have to tell you.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I've been seeing a lot of companies popping up recently making cleaner fragrance. Do you think that there's such a thing as clean fragrance?

[Whitney DeBona]

I think that. So there are some companies out there that are making cleaner fragrance, at least according to them. Some of them. I know there's one company. It's. It's called Esos or Esau nyc. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. I would say that they're just from looking at the ingredients, they're kind of one of the more cleaner brands that are out there, because I think that they use pretty much all essential oils in their products. But then some of these other brands, like, there's another brand, Henry Rose, and I really like Henry Rose. I really like their. They. Everything smells fantastic. They are. They use synthetics. They call them safe synthetics. And, you know, it kind of just becomes a judgment call, because I love that company because they're very transparent. They disclose every single ingredient. They tell you exactly what's in their fragrance. And they say, you know, we don't include any of these harmful things. We don't include any known endocrine disruptors, any known, you know, problematic things. And that's where the big issue is. If you're using some of these safe synthetics, do we really know that they're safe? We don't really know that. So all of this, I mean. And I think it's the same with food. It's the same with everything. It comes down to, like, we just have to do the best that we can. And then it's a judgment call. You know, you can say, I 100% don't want anything synthetic on my body at all. It's not worth the risk to me. Or maybe you're going through some kind of a health issue or you're trying to get pregnant or, like, there's a big reason why you would want to just completely say, I'm just not gonna do any of that right now. But for some people, you know, you might look at it and go, all right, well, they're disclosing everything. We don't know that there's anything dangerous about these specific ingredients. So, you know, maybe I wanna smell really nice every once in a while or whatever. But, yeah, I just think the biggest problem is with a lot of these safer ingredients, even that they're so there now a lot of companies are taking the parabens out, but they're replacing them with other preservatives. And again, the problem is we don't really know. I mean, there hasn't been this extensive testing done for us to know if those are actually safer or better than the parabens that were, you know, that we were already using. So, yeah, it's an issue.

[Host]

Yeah, parabens are concerning to me. I remember years and years and years ago I was really on it with parabens. And I now, to be honest, I don't even really think about it because all the companies that I buy from, I know that they don't use parabens, but I know there was a lot of concerning links to breast cancer. Right. It was breast cancer and maybe some other cancers, I think. And so I was super concerned about parabens and I kind of feel, I feel the same way about fragrance. For me personally, I really believe in kind of like a picking your poison and also just informed consent and knowing when you're putting all this stuff on your body that it will potentially have risks, especially like infertility. And for me, I'm like, my poisons, my nails, like, I know they're terrible and I'm actually going to ask you about this because I know, I know they're terrible. And I get messages all the time, People saying, well, why do you do that? Or are you doing something that we don't know about that's clean? And I'm like, no, I just have decided that everything else in my house is clean.

[Whitney DeBona]

Right.

[Host]

I don't wear perfume. I own a couple from like dime because they're apparently cleaner. And I will maybe wear dime every like two months. But I just feel like for me, I'm like, I don't really care that much. I would rather use my quote unquote allotment of like toxins on males. But I think the thing that's most concerning to me is that I started learning that even compared to places like the UK for example, and I want to hear from you if this is actually true. But what I've heard is that they are way more concerned, like they actually regulate the ingredients that are allowed to be in cosmetics versus here. And for example, I know there was some testing that was being done and they were finding things like formaldehyde and some of these really big brands too. It was like, I feel like it was like Chanel Mac, like all the really big ones that people are spending top dollar on and they're getting formaldehyde.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah, yeah. So in the US I was really shocked to find out that when it comes to cosmetics, the FDA doesn't really regulate cosmetics. They put it off on the manufacturers and say you have to make sure that your products are safe. But there's no. They don't have to like submit a bunch of safety data or testing or do anything. Like there's nothing required. It's just them saying, yep, it's safe and you know, popping it on a shelf somewhere.

[Host]

By the way, they do this with food companies too. This is the exact same thing that the FDA allows for food companies through the loophole. Gross. Which is generally recognized as safe. But yeah, so it's, it's interesting how it's paralleled.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah, it's kind of all the same, just a different.

[Host]

It's copy and paste for every industry. Yeah.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Whitney DeBona]

But yeah, so we really don't have a lot of regulation when it comes to our cosmetics. And you know, the eu, for instance, they have way stricter regulations than we do here. They ban something like 2,400 or it's, I think it's more than that ingredients in cosmetics there. And I think our list right now is 11 or 12. So I mean, way stricter regulations even with things like fragrance. So if you're buying a product that is coming from Europe and it's manufactured in Europe, if it says fragrance on the label there, you at least know that it has. They do require some safety testing and things like that for their fragrance. And they have that huge list of ingredients that are not allowed to be in there. So it's very different if you're buying something that says fragrance from Europe versus something that says fragrance here in the United States. So the, the lack of regulation is really concerning. And I've talked to, you know, other people that have gone off and tried to start skincare brands or, you know, some kind of cosmetic products. And they were just shocked at, you know, they're like, I was trying to contact the FDA to like figure out what do I have to do to get this product approved and like get it on the market and get it sold. And they were basically like, I don't have to do anything. Like, there's nothing, you know, there's nothing there. And it's just, that's, it's wild.

[Courtney]

It's crazy.

[Host]

Yeah. So from what you have seen, what do you think is maybe the most important product that should be non toxic? Like for example, I don't really worry as much about mascara. I still try to buy like cleaner brands and I Think I buy. What is it called? Tower 28. But to me, I'm like, mascara is kind of on the lowest totem pole for me. I'm more worried about what's actually being absorbed in my skin and maybe when I'm eating. So, like, lip stuff.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah. I think deodorant is a bigger. And that's unfortunate, because I think switching to natural deodorant is very hard. A lot of people have a really tough time with it. Most of the natural deodorants have baking soda in them. Most people are sensitive to baking soda, and they just will break out in rashes, and it's a whole thing. But I think that that sen. Sensitive area of your body. I read something that said what you put in your armpits, I think it said it can absorb up to, like, 100% of whatever you're putting in your armpit because it is such a sensitive area. And that is the area where we're, you know, dispelling all of the toxins from our body. So it's also lymph nodes. Yeah, you have the lymph nodes. It's just close to the breast tissue. So I think that deodorant is. It's one of the hardest switches, but I think that that's one of the most important. And then I really think. I don't know, like, you're saying you kind of have to weigh and evaluate, like, what is the worst thing to be putting on my body when it comes to your cosmetics? But I think that lotions. I mean, if you're, like, slathering yourself with lotion from head to toe once or twice a day, you know, you really kind of want to know what's in there. You're putting that all over your body. You're using a large amount of it. If you're somebody that wears makeup every single day, like foundation and things like that, where you're just really putting that all over your face, that might be, you know, an important area, something that I have recently kind of bumped to the top of my list that I never really. I just hadn't gone into that rabbit hole yet. But I think that tampons are extremely.

[Host]

Yes.

[Whitney DeBona]

Important. And I don't think that this has been really talked about enough because everybody's so focused on clean beauty and all these things. But I think that the ingredients in your mascara are probably way less something that you should be worrying about than what is in the tampon that you're putting inside of your body. Multiple days, you know, every single month. Leaving it inside your body for prolonged periods of time. I just interviewed a tampon manufacturer for my podcast and you know, we were just kind of going through the ingredients and I was like, oh gosh, like it just wasn't something that I had really, you know, gone in and looked at yet. So I think that that is, I think deodorant, I think tampons, I think that's super important. And then I just think anything that you're using large amounts of on a regular basis, those are the products that you really should be looking at with concern.

[Courtney]

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[Host]

Foodology My assumption would be what I said a minute ago was like, lip stuff too, because I, I know people are going to like, come for me. When I said I eat it. I'm not literally eating it, obviously, but, you know, like, we're consuming it.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

When you put it on your mouth.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

The tampons one is a really big one. I was actually going to bring that up because this is one that, when I finally discovered this. So I actually, my very first YouTube video I ever did was on tampons, and it was in 2016. Because I remember, like, it was kind of one of those, like, moments where I feel like everyone can relate to this. And I'm sure it was same for you where like, you suddenly learn something like that. It's like a light bulb turns on. You're like, oh my God, why did I never think about this before? And I very much felt that way about tampons.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

Especially because I was reading too. I don't know if a lot of people are even talking about this yet, but one of the things I read was that tss, which is the toxic shock syndrome, a lot of the reason why that is happening is not necessarily because of the tampon itself, but it's because of the materials that they're using in the fake tampons. I'm calling them fake tampons. But a lot of the tampaxes of the world, they don't use 100% cotton. They use rayon in there and other, like, synthetics that they're mixing with the cotton. And what I read is that if you just do use 100% cotton, your risk for TSS, like basically almost becomes non. Existent.

[Whitney DeBona]

Oh, wow. I, I did. I hadn't read that, but that's crazy.

[Courtney]

Crazy.

[Host]

I was super mad when I learned about that.

[Whitney DeBona]

That's wild.

[Host]

Because a lot of these tampons are not actually using 100% cotton. And then you go even a step further, and I know it's so annoying, but we have to go there. If you're not getting organic cotton, it's being soaked and sprayed in glyphosate. So then you're sticking rayon and glyphosate up in a very vascular area of your body, meaning that there's a lot of. Oh, my God. Why did I just blank on what it. The arteries down there?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Host]

I was like, what am I looking for? So it's going basically into your bloodstream in a very absorbable place of your body. So that is a huge one, and I'm so glad that you brought it up.

[Whitney DeBona]

Can I go just even one more step to be even more annoying about the tampon? So I just learned that even these tampon brands that say 100%, if it just says 100% organic cotton on the box, that does not mean that the Entire tampon is 100% organic cotton. It means that some percentage of it is organic, but it doesn't mean that the entire thing and every part of it is 100% organic. So what you really want to look for is it needs to say 100% organic certified. And it neat. There are specific certifying agencies that it's very, very difficult. That's why most tampon companies, even the organic ones, don't have these certifications because, you know, it's. You have to really be on whatever ingredients you're using in there, and it's more expensive and all of those things. So just to, you know, just to make it even harder for everyone, you really want to be looking for 100% certified organic on the box with a little label. I can't remember the names of the agencies right now, but there's, I think, two of them that certify the tampon products like that.

[Host]

I mean, it is so absurd, the amount of, like, just how much we have to care about all this and how much we have to look into it. I actually didn't even know that, but it makes sense to me because knowing what I know about food, they can do the same thing where they can claim that a product is organic. I don't remember the exact percentages, but it's up to. If up to a certain percentage of the food ingredients that are in there organic, they can say that it's just like, organic.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

Otherwise, if it's under. I think it's. If it's under like, 75%, it might be higher than that. Then they're allowed to say contains organic ingredients. They're not allowed to call it organic, but that makes sense, because what they're doing there is. They're saying it's 100% cotton, but then they don't have to say that it's 100% organic. They're saying 100% cotton and contains mostly organic ingredients. I can't. That makes me crazy. What is the craziest litigation that you've been involved in yet? And can you name the brand?

[Whitney DeBona]

So, I mean, I think the craziest thing for me and what really just kind of opened my eyes to. I mean, I was already. I was handling asbestos cases. But like I said earlier, they were mostly your typical asbestos type of exposure cases. There wasn't, you know, it was like, pumps and valves on Navy ships and cars and construction sites and things like that. But when we really started suing all of these companies for the powder products and the makeup products, that was when I just, like, my whole world was, like, turned upside down because I just. That affected me, you know, Like, I didn't work on a Navy ship. I never was a construction worker. So it's like, you know, I'm representing these people, and I'm learning those exposures. But it felt far away for me. You know, I didn't understand that I had to watch. I don't know how many YouTube videos I've watched on, like, how to change a tire and replace a valve and change brakes and whatever. But when we're talking about makeup, you know, it was like, oh, I've been wearing makeup since I was, I don't know, 12. And that really hit home, especially since a lot of the brands that we were suing were, like I said earlier, these were products that I had used. I'm talking to these clients who were, you know, a little older than me. But, okay, we're going through all the makeup that you used in your life. It's, you know, Almay eyeshadow and covergirl face powder and Mac and, you know, all these different brands. And so that really shook me, because I was like, well, if this is the case and these products were contaminated with asbestos and these companies knew about it, what else is in all of our makeup and all of the, you know, cosmetic products that we're using? So, yeah, I would say that any of the talc litigation, those were the cases that really just kind of, you know, Kind of just, I don't know, they. They like blew everything open for me because then that was when I really started just digging into everything. And Johnson and Johnston, we had lots of cases against them for mostly the baby powder. And then they also have a product that they made called Shower to Shower.

[Host]

Is this the baby tears one, the shampoo, or is this different?

[Whitney DeBona]

No, this is another powder product that they made called Shower to Shower. So, you know, similar to baby powder. I never knew that people used baby powder. I just thought baby powder was you put it on babies when you change their diaper. But people really, if you're a powder wearer, I mean, these people would get out of the shower and basically bathe in powder. I mean, they put it everywhere, all over their bodies. They used it for sweat, they used it as deodorant. They'd use it after the shower, they'd use it after the gym. They'd just put it in their shoes. I mean, lots and lots of powder use. And so I had a lot of clients that were, you know, these lifelong Johnson and Johnson baby powder wearers. And, you know, like I said earlier, 50 years old, getting diagnosed with mesothelioma, which is a cancer that typically people maybe have three to six months to live, but by the point that they get diagnosed, so it's a horrific cancer. And Johnson and Johnson, currently they're on their third bankruptcy attempt for these cases. So there is a loophole in the law called, well, it's called the Texas two Step. But basically these companies can open up a shell corporation, assign all of their liabilities to that shell corporation, and then they file for bankruptcy on that shell company. And so what Johnson Johnson has done now three times is they've tried to do that with all of their talc cases. And so they assign all of the talc liabilities to these shell companies, file for bankruptcy protection on that company. The first two times, the courts keep throwing them out and saying, hey, Johnson and Johnson, you're a multi billion dollar corporation, you're not bankrupt. Like, you have the money to pay these cancer victims what they are owed. You have the money to fight these cases in court. And so then in the meantime, they've been proposing these mass settlements, which I think the first one was something like $700 million. Now I think they're up to like $8 billion that they're proposing for this settlement. But they're doing that now to try to force all of the cancer victims or their families, because a lot of these people aren't even alive. Anymore because this has been going on for so long. And so they're basically just doing that to try and force them to accept these settlements versus fighting them in court, where they could potentially get, you know, a $20 million verdict versus whatever it is that they're being offered in the settlement. And this trust would also, it would be for the next like 25 years or something. So we're talking about it's. It $8 billion sounds like a ton of money, but it's being split between all of the current cases plus all the future cases for the next 25 years. So it's. They're just a really, really despicable company, in my opinion. And I think one of the worst companies that I've ever really litigated against. And it's just sad. It's just so sad. And it's so sad for all of these people that have been waiting now for years to get some kind of justice and compensation. And, you know, there's just like no end in sight to it because they keep doing this over and over again, clearly in bad faith. I mean.

[Host]

Yeah, well. Cause they know that's the problem is that now they know and they just keep doing it. Because also the baby powder is still.

[Courtney]

On the shelves, right?

[Whitney DeBona]

It is still on the shelves. So they. A lot of people don't know this, but they removed talc from all of their baby powder in the U.S. i think it was like 2020 maybe when they removed it and then. 2023. No, it was just of a couple a few years ago. 2023 I think is when they took it out of all their products nationwide. Still defending it, saying we stand behind our, our products. They've always been safe, there's no problem. But you know, now they've decided to take all of the talc out.

[Host]

So you know that feeling after a.

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[Host]

With zero risk and how is the Asbestos getting in the Talc? I watched a documentary about this years ago. I wish I could remember what it was called about the cosmetic industry and it was something really fascinating about how it ended up in there and I.

[Whitney DeBona]

Can'T remember what it was. So it's not. The companies aren't intentionally adding the asbestos in. Asbestos and talc are both naturally occurring minerals that form in the earth, but the problem is they typically form very close to each other and so you have the situation where these talc mines are just contaminated with asbestos and once it's in there you can't really get it out. And there's a big problem with the testing for the talc. And that's something that is right now being reviewed by the fda because there was an act that was passed. I think it was, I don't know, maybe two years ago. It's Macra or Mokra. It's the modernization something. I can't remember what the acronym stands for, but basically it was supposed to be this major beauty reform act that was gonna make all of our cosmetics safer. I think that its actual impact is pretty minimal. But they did require in that act that the FDA come up with some sort of unanimous testing for talc in cosmetics. And so right now that's sort of being hashed out with the fda and they've proposed, you know, what that rule is going to look like and how the manufacturers are going to have to comply with it. So I'm just kind of keeping my eye on that to see. But the problem is there's a lot of disagreement in the way that you actually test the talc for the asbestos. There's different testing methods, and so some of them are not as sensitive as others. So it's like, well, if we adopt this testing method, there's a potential that there could still be asbestos in there because you're not using the proper testing method. So that's kind of what's being hashed out right now. But hopefully there will at least be some kind of uniform rule where the man, either the manufacturers or the talc suppliers, somebody is testing. I think it needs to be every single batch of the talc before it's going into these products. Because, you know, you just can't. They just, they need to have the testing there. And we know that asbestos is. There's no safe level of asbestos exposure. So even if it's a trace amount, you know, I remember learning early on when I started doing asbestos work that in the tip of your finger, you can have up to like a trillion asbestos fibers in that little tiny space. So, you know, if it's in your makeup compact or whatever, and you're brushing that and blowing on your brush, and that's all going up into your airspace, your airspace. You could be potentially breathing in a trillion asbestos fibers if it's contaminated. So it's, you know, some people are like, oh, it's, you know, over dramaticized and we don't really need to worry about this.

[Host]

But, but if women are putting this on their face every single day, and most women are, then you're getting small. Even if it is small exposures over time. Compounding, that's a lot. And then you think about too that, you know, most of us started wearing makeup when we were 12, 13, obviously not every day or Hope, you know, most of us weren't, but even like playing around with it. You know, I used to buy all those brands when I was younger. Maybelline, covergirl, all of them.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yep.

[Host]

And I think a lot of people still, I still don't think that the masses have totally been hit yet with the understanding that we need to be buying cleaner cosmetics and also too, I mean, lower socioeconomic, you know, they're not able to go out and buy the really expensive, nice brands and a lot of the non toxic ones are more expensive. And so a lot of people are still buying their stuff from like Target and CVS and they're getting the covergirls and Maybellines of the world and not knowing that they're not clean. Which actually reminds me, are any of the clean products that Sephora actually clean?

[Whitney DeBona]

So some of them probably are. I think the problem is, so Sephora, they actually just had a recent lawsuit, they had a class action lawsuit filed against them for, you know, people saying that their clean line was not actually clean and that it contained synthetics and contained things that they didn't. People assume if you're buying clean, you know, know it's clean, it's natural.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Whitney DeBona]

And so there was a whole class action that the court ended up actually throwing out because, not because they said, oh yeah, these products are clean, but basically Sephora has very set, you know, guidelines on what is allowed in their clean line. And so they specifically say, we do not allow anything that has parabens, phthalates, I forget the other ones I think that they have. It's like seven or eight things that are excluded and not allowed to be in those products. It doesn't mean that they're all natural, it doesn't mean that they don't use synthetics. It just means these are the seven ingredients that we say are clean and non toxic or these are the seven ingredients that we say are toxic and those have to be excluded. And so, you know, I think with every product line right now, you really have to go product by product because there might be some things in a product line that I would say, oh yeah, that's, you know, I would wear that or I would use that. But then they might make another product that has an ingredient that I would go, that's questionable. I wouldn't probably, you know, want to buy that or use that. And so that's why it's just impo. Like it's so hard right now and people get so frustrated because everybody just wants the answer. Everybody just wants you to tell them, what can I buy? What is safe? And it's really even hard. I mean, you can make these master lists and things like that, but the companies are constantly changing their ingredients and, you know, so it's just so hard for consumers to actually buy clean products. But I would say that the majority of things at Sephora, even in the clean section, you're going to find things like phenoxy ethanol is a preservative that they've replaced the parabens with. That still is, is, you know, a questionable ingredient. They allow ethoxylated ingredients, so those can leave traces of 1:4 dioxane, which is a carcinogen. Those are in all the clean brands anywhere. Target Sephora, they're going to have those ingredients in there. I think even at Sephora they allow Lilial, which is a known reproductive toxin. It's banned in the euro, but it's allowed in the US in clean, clean products.

[Courtney]

So can we just have regulatory bodies.

[Host]

That are actually looking out for us and banning these ingredients? Because it is exhausting.

[Whitney DeBona]

It really is.

[Host]

I was just sitting here thinking, I actually miss the days of when, when I was first learning about all of this. It would have been. It was probably 2011, maybe 2012.

[Courtney]

Oh no, it was actually earlier than that.

[Host]

Cause I was living in LA. It was like 2009. There was one makeup brand that was at Whole Foods. Now granted, I don't miss that makeup brand because they weren't the best. But back then it was like, I.

[Courtney]

Still think to this day that they're.

[Host]

Pretty clean in mineral fusion.

[Whitney DeBona]

Okay. I don't know if I've ever looked into that one.

[Host]

I couldn't even tell you now if it was clean or not. But I just remember back then it was like I knew that like I could just get clean cosmetics at Whole Foods. It's where I was buying all my stuff. And then all these other brands started coming out with cleaner products and I was super excited about it. And then I more recently have been learning what you just said, which is you have to look up each individual product. And now I am just, I'm exhausted, girl. I'm exhausted. I know, because I was so excited. I was like, oh my gosh, all these amazing, like high performing natural cosmetics are coming out. They also have cool, fun branding. Like the branding was always boring and like crunchy. If you want to Call it that. Whole Foods.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

Some of the brands that I love and that I use because I'm assuming people will ask, and I'm curious your thoughts on some of these. So my main ones are rms. That's like my number one. That's. Majority of the stuff I use is actually from rms.

[Whitney DeBona]

Okay. They're a pretty clean brand. I think that they're pretty. Overall, they. I don't. I haven't done a deep dive into every single product, but I've used some of their products and I think that they're overall like a pretty good brand. Yeah.

[Host]

God. Because I love them. Their foundation and their concealer is unlike anything I've ever found in the natural space face. They're amazing. I use a lot of. Well, not a lot. I use a couple products from Kosas. I use a couple products from Tower 28. And there's one other one that I'm forgetting that'll probably come to me later, but. Okay, that's good about rms.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah. And again, I think. Oh, Ilia. Yeah, Ilia is another one that, you know, I think they have a lot of products that, yes, would check the boxes. I wouldn't, you know, consider anything in them to be harmful, but they do. I think Ilia uses some synthetic dyes. And that's the problem is it's really hard to make makeup with color in it without these dyes. And there are companies that are doing it, but it's like it doesn't last as long. It doesn't, you know, it's. It's hard to make the super, super clean products that actually work and actually last. So again, it just comes, it comes back to, I don't know, just educating yourself the best that you can. And again, deciding if I wear a lipstick every, you know, once in a blue moon, is that gonna kill me? Probably not. If it's like, you know, something like your mascara, you know, you just have to sort of weigh and balance everything and decide how non toxic do I want to go with this? How much do I want to trust some of these companies that are saying clean synthetics clean or, you know, safe synthetics. It's just so hard.

[Host]

I mean, talk about hard. One of the things that I actually, I get so many DMS about this and I personally have not been able to make the shift because every time I've tried products, they just did not work. For my hair. Hair care shampoo and conditioner, I've. I've switched out everything else. Like, I use a lot of styling products from Evolve. It's E V O L H. Yeah. And then I have a couple products from Innocence.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

But I use the Innersense shampoo and conditioner. My hair was straw.

[Whitney DeBona]

Oh, really?

[Host]

Like, it was straw?

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

It was horrible. And I wanted to love them so bad because I hear that they're pretty clean. I finally went back to my. Like, supposedly it's like, quote unquote, like, a little bit less toxic than some of the other ones because I know it doesn't contain parabens.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

I know that it contains fragrance. I can't do it. Like, literally, my hair was like one. Like, if I got too close to a candle, the whole thing would go up in flames.

[Courtney]

That's how dry it was.

[Host]

And so I don't know what to do. So do you have any good hair care products that you have?

[Whitney DeBona]

I actually Innersense is one that I do really like. I love their shampoos. Their conditioner does not condition my hair as much as I would like. I like all of their styling products, so I love their blowout cream and their hair spray and all of those products. Hair care is tough, and I hear people all the time say that too. Like, I tried this brand, I tried that brand. I don't like it. It doesn't work. So I think with the hair care, at least, if you find something that works for you, at least make sure, you know, buy it from the clean section at Target. Make sure that it at least doesn't have parabens and phthalates. And it might still have fragrance in it, but at least they're excluding those harmful things that we know about. They might not be disclosing every single ingredient that's in the fragrance. So that's where. That's where a lot of this comes down to. Also, you kind of have to put some trust in some of these manufacturers because, I mean, you don't have a choice otherwise. They don't have to tell you what's in there.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Whitney DeBona]

Some brands are becoming really transparent, and if you email the brand or ask them questions about what's in their fragrance, they'll tell you. So that's always an option. But.

[Host]

There'S another brand that I just found, and I've been testing out some of their styling products, and I got some little travel size of the shampoo, and I thought it was decent. And I'm forgetting what it's called. It's like Rao.

[Whitney DeBona]

I don't know how you pronounce it. I haven't tried that brand, but some people do really like that. 1. So I need to get my hands on that.

[Host]

And I know I'm trying. I'm really trying here, but I just. With my hair, it was like, oh, my gosh. I couldn't. And I also. I've been trying to grow out my hair.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's been really tough.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah. I think this is something that I have sort of done a 180 on because I started from a place of looking at all my beauty products, just because that was what was in my face. That's what I was dealing with, with the lawsuits. So that was, like, kind of where I started on this whole journey as I have gone further and further down the rabbit hole of into everything. And I'm like, your food is more important than your mascara. Your water is more important than your mascara. You know, the air quality in your home is more important probably, than your mascara. Like, there are bigger issues. I think it's all important, and it all needs to be overhauled. It all needs to be regulated better. But I just think. I think that people are focusing on the wrong things sometimes first, which is fine, because however you end up going down this journey, I think it's great.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Whitney DeBona]

And like I said, I went in completely backwards. So, you know, I would be freaking out about phenoxy ethanol in my mascara, yet we're drinking plastic water bottles. And, you know, so it's. I just think I don't want people, like, panicking and freaking out. Like I said earlier, it's just sort of educating yourself, figuring out, okay, this is, you know, a product that I'm using all the time, every single day. Can I find a safer solution and swap this out and just do it slowly? Like, you can't swap every single product out overnight. It takes time, and it's expensive. It's. You know, I've been a couple years now at testing out different makeup and skincare products and all these things, and you might buy. It's. It's all expensive, and you might buy a $50 tube of mascara, and it's horrible, but you're stuck with it. So. So I just. I get it when people feel so overwhelmed and so stressed out that they're just like, I'm not gonna do anything because it's all too much. So now I'm sort of coming at people from a different lens of focus on the things that are, like, really, really important, which, your food is really, really important, your water is really, really important. And then do all the other things slowly as you can. And you just have to do the best that you can cause it. It's the wild, wild west. And it's. It's crazy out here.

[Host]

It definitely is. And we definitely need to do the best we can. Something I will say, though, that horrified me the first time I heard this is that on average, women are being exposed to around 160 different toxic chemicals on a daily basis. That horrified me and that lit a fire under my ass to change out a lot of this stuff.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

And. Yes. Are we going to be perfect? Absolutely not. Like you said. I mean, I just admit it. I mean, I do my nails. I use like a probably somewhat toxic shampoo and conditioner. I would say every single thing that you can find that you can swap out, do it. And then maybe pick your, like, three top poisons, you know, and like, for me, it's the shampoo, it's my nails. And I know there's something else, but I'm not thinking of it right now, but I know there's something else. But so just where you can swap out, because there are a lot of amazing, at least brands that are doing better and they're making cleaner stuff. But yeah, it is, It's. It is the wild, wild west. And we're all out here just trying our best, talking about the nails. You can be really honest with me. How bad is it? I know it's bad. I just like my nails. My nails will not grow past my finger here. They break off immediately. It's a thing. My mom has this. My grandma has it.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's just, like, hereditary for me with my nails. Nails and yeah. I mean, man hands.

[Whitney DeBona]

Clearly it's not good for you. I. Do you do acrylic or do you gel or what do you do?

[Host]

I do hard gel.

[Whitney DeBona]

Okay. I think. And I. I don't know if acrylic is kind of being, like, phased out because I think acrylic is horrible. I mean, it is like a carcinogen. And I mean, that stuff when they're drilling your nails like that, I mean, you just see it flying everywhere. But, you know, I think again, it's pick your poison. I am worried more so for the women who are working in these nail salons day in and day out. Also hair salon workers and I actually, there was just a lawsuit filed. It's a little bit ironic because I feel like the main thing that people are always coming at me about on Instagram in the comment section is, well, you have your bleach blonde hair. You dye your hair, you know, And I'm always like, all right, whatever. Like that's my thing. I. You know, give me a break. I quit Botox. I gave up all the. You know, all the toxic makeup. Like, I still dye my hair. Leave me alone.

[Host]

People come for me for that, too. Yeah, that's my third.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah, but there. So there was just a lawsuit filed, and I'm actually gonna interview the attorney who filed it, because there was a study came out talking about increases in. I think it was kidney cancer. There might have been a few other cancers, but basically it was a salon worker who had developed whatever type of kidney. I think it's kidney cancer. And it was from all of the exposure to. Well, they're alleging is to all of the exposure from the chemicals and all of the hair dye and all these things that he had been exposed to working in a hair salon. So I think, again, there's still a lot that we don't know about all of that. But I really do worry so much for women who are working in nail salons. I went recently. I very rarely ever get my nails done anymore in the salon. And I went recently, and I sat in there, and I had a headache in, like, 10 minutes.

[Host]

I know.

[Whitney DeBona]

The fumes were so strong. It was so bad. And I'm like, how do these people. This is not good for them, being in here, breathing this in every single day. So, again, if it's something that you're doing every day, you know, couple weeks, you're in there for an hour, and you're out.

[Host]

You know, I mean, I've started thinking about maybe wearing a mask. Going in there. I just. Like, after Covid, I'm so beyond done with masks. But, I mean, it is something I'm considering, because I totally agree. Every time I go in there, I'm. I seriously fear for everyone that's working in these nail salons.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I need to just get over it. I think after I get married, I'll. I probably won't, but I'm like, I want pretty nails for my wedding. And it's just. Just like. It's tough because my job requires me to be on camera a lot. And so it just is hard. But I think I just have to get over it at some point. I'm like, get over it, Courtney. It's, like, not worth your health.

[Whitney DeBona]

I mean. But again, it just comes back to if every single thing, you know, if. If you're doing everything else and really limiting the toxins, because I. I think, you know, everybody keeps talking about this toxic bucket, and, you know, if you're really limiting as much as you can. What you're being exposed to. Is it gonna kill you if you go get your nails done every once in a while? You know, I don't know. None of us really know the answer to that. It's just a personal judgment call for everybody. But I can't stand the. Just this whole, like, all the trolls and everybody online where it's. It's such a. Everything has to be all or nothing. And if you are not living in, you know, a tent in. In the middle of an organic forest somewhere, you know they're gonna come after you. I had somebody literally say that. The paint on the walls in my house, in my dining room, the paint on your walls is toxic. And I'm like, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to go live outside? What do you want from me?

[Host]

But even then, they wouldn't be satisfied.

[Whitney DeBona]

They wouldn't.

[Host]

That's the thing is they'd be like, oh, well, you're close to a conventional farm, so you're still getting the sprays from the. I mean, I just can't. No, I know.

[Whitney DeBona]

So crazy.

[Host]

These people are so nuts. They come for me all the time.

[Whitney DeBona]

Oh, I can't imagine.

[Host]

It's honestly partially why I don't really do videos anymore where I talk about toxins in our. Our makeup and stuff, because I just am so tired of it. Because every comment is like, oh, well, your hair and your nails. And I'm like, no one is perfect.

[Whitney DeBona]

I know.

[Sponsor]

No one is perfect.

[Host]

So you want me to go live off the land? Is that what you want me to do? And have no nails and just not do, like, not live in the real world? It's. And it's crazy. You're right. Because why can't we live in a world where we're just trying our best?

[Courtney]

I try so hard.

[Host]

I have an air filter in every freaking room in my house. I have water filters on every shower. I have a filter on my bath. I have water filter that I drink from. I mean, I could go on. I only allow organic food in my home. Like, I go so above and beyond. Leave me the F alone and let me do a couple things. Y.

[Courtney]

Because that's.

[Host]

That's really what this is about, is. It's about the informed consent. Because let's say that, for example, we're dealing with a horrible infertility crisis in this country right now. Women younger and younger are unable to get pregnant like they used to. So many women are having to go on ivf, which, you know, thank God we have that. But that's a horrible route to have to go through. It's really hard on your body. It's emotionally taxing. And so many women are going, why can't I just get pregnant natural? So information like this could help them. If someone is really struggling with infertility and they're using all the covergirls and Maybellines and Diors of the world, you know, hopefully this message will get to them and they'll go, oh, my gosh, maybe I need to stop using all that. And then I would argue that is a time to go really hard. Like, stop the nails, don't use the perfume, Go really clean with your makeup. Go really clean with your hair. Care is. If you're really, really struggling with something, then that's a time and a place to, like, really go hardcore. And then I think everyone else, like, go as hard and as you can without making yourself insane.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah, I agree.

[Host]

Yeah. It's just the perfectionism that we uphold for people on the Internet is so maddening.

[Whitney DeBona]

It's crazy and it's impossible. Especially today, because it's you. You know, one video will pop up and tell you that this is the worst thing that you could ever be exposed to. And then another video is going to pop up and say, actually, it's not that bad, and here's why. And there's so much conflicting evidence about everything and information. So it really is. And nobody in the government, nobody. Our regulating agencies, like, they're not stepping in. And actually, like, this is the problem, doing the research that we need. So we're all just left to our own devices to some extent to just. Okay, well.

[Host]

And that's what's so maddening about this. I talk about this all the time.

[Courtney]

Because I talk about this a lot.

[Host]

From the eating disorder and like, food space, where now these RDs are saying, oh, if you eat really clean, you're gonna get an eating disorder. Which, that reasoning is so stupid, in my opinion. I get it. I'm not trying to minimize eating disorders. I know it's a real problem. But people are genuinely really sick right now, and they're trying to get better. And if you try to minimize all of the things that they're consuming from an artificial and preservative standpoint, it could actually really help their health. Health a lot. And I. Yeah, I just.

[Courtney]

I see this.

[Host]

There's this, like, perfectionism that's happening right now as a result. This is a symptom of living in a society where nothing is being regulated right now.

[Courtney]

Okay.

[Host]

I can't say nothing, but things are largely not being regulated. And it makes me so upset because then it's on us to have to deal, to have to do this. And we're all going crazy because we're like, oh, my God, how do I find the haircut? And then I have to scan everything at the grocery store. Now I have to scan all my cosmetics. Like, yeah, it's maddening, but it's a symptom of the fact that we do not have regulatory bodies that are taking this seriously.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

So from a lawyer standpoint, like, it. Do you think that's. That's going to change? Like, are we starting to wake up to this at all? Like, is there any way that people listening can get involved?

[Whitney DeBona]

And, I mean, I think clearly we have the whole maha movement that's happening right now. I think there's a lot of hope, hope that we're gonna see some change. But then something. Cause I hear from a lot of people too, that they're like, well, we don't want more government regulation, or they're worried that there's still gonna be these influence, like, who's influencing these regulations? And so I don't know. I mean, I don't know what the answer is. I think that the more, as we've seen, the more public information and public outrage there is over all of this. It's really forcing these companies to make safer products. It's forcing them to make. You know, all of these food companies now are either making their products, not all of them, some of them are making their products cleaner, or we just have a lot more new companies coming into the system that are making healthier food. And so I think that lawsuits, lawyers get demonized and villainized all the time. And, you know, people think that we're just in this litigious society and people just sue for everything. But lawyers really are the police officers of the world. Because if there were not lawyers, I mean, everyone would do whatever they wanted with no real repercussion. Especially when you're talking about these big corporations, like, if there's nobody who is going to hold them accountable for some of these things, I mean, they would just. They already do whatever they want. But I think that the public outrage, the lawsuits. There's a big lawsuit that was filed by some lawyers with Morgan and Morgan recently against a lot of the big food manufacturers. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen with those lawsuits. I'm like, oh, I just would love to get my hands on the discovery in that case. To see, you know, what these companies have known forever about what. What they've been putting in our food. But I think it just is going to take constant pressure from us. Like, we have to let this be known that we want these safer products, we want better ingredients. If the government is not going to step in, which hopefully they will, you know, fingers crossed. And we'll get some better regulations on some of these things. But I think it's really just forcing the companies to make their products safer. Cause even if you think about Johnson and Johnson with the talc, it took thousands and thousands of lawsuits and all of this. I mean, I can't even imagine the money that they have spent where it's like they could have just taken the talc out a long time ago and reformulated their products and made it safer. But instead they defended all these lawsuits. They paid for these expert witnesses to come in and lie and say that their products are safe and that this isn't actually causing people to get cancer. So they've spent all of this money, and the end result was eventually that they took all of the talc out. So. And we've seen that with a lot of.

[Host]

Is that an ego thing? Why can't they just go, ugh, like, is it a legal thing where they will then be held even more accountable if they're like, oh, shoot, we, like, messed up.

[Whitney DeBona]

I think it's a fear that if we admit we were wrong here, we're gonna see even more lawsuits. But it's like, okay, so you're just gonna keep poisoning people then?

[Host]

I know.

[Whitney DeBona]

And not ever warn anybody and not ever tell anybody. That's the biggest thing with all of these asbestos cases. And it's all of the companies. I mean, when they found out that this stuff was so toxic and harmful to human health, rather than just going, whoa, we need to warn people. They either when the government made them put a warning on the products, they would put these little shoddy, you know, avoid breathing on the bottom of the packaging. You know, they weren't really warning people. And then they still sold the products like that for decades before they literally were forced to take, you know, take the asbestos out of their products. Or they had so many lawsuits that they went bankrupt. And so it's just the same thing. Like, you just. I think we all just have to keep putting the pressure on food, on our cosmetics. We have to buy the cleaner options when we can. I know it's hard because it is more expensive. And I think that I've heard you talk about this before that, you know, it's up to the people who can afford to buy the products that are cleaner and safer. It's up to us to do that because it then has a trickle down effect and we can help, you know, people that cannot afford to buy these products. So.

[Host]

Because it drives the consumer trends.

[Courtney]

That's why I always say that if.

[Host]

You have the means to do it. Absolutely. I feel like we, we have a societal obligation because the more people that are putting money into the safer, cleaner products, the healthier foods, the more that the consumer drives that trend. And then the companies start going, oh, more people are demanding this because that's how we demand it. We're not literally going to go show up on their, you know, doorstep and be like, we demand safer products. It's like, no, we just stopped buying their toxic products. And then they go, oh, oh, people are buying more of the cleaner stuff.

[Whitney DeBona]

Stuff. Yep.

[Host]

Yeah. Okay, so before we have to go, I do want to ask you about your thoughts on Botox and fillers and what do you think is worse? Botox or fillers? Are they both equally dangerous? Dangerous, yeah.

[Whitney DeBona]

So do I think one is more dangerous than the other? I don't, I don't know. I don't. I think that there are more risky complications that you would immediately see with filler versus Botox. But that was sort of my, I think, my thinking in the past was that I didn't think Botox was like dangerous or harmful. I literally started getting Botox when I was probably 20. I don't know, I was like in my late 20s and I just, I don't know, it was like no big deal and nobody ever really, I mean, I'm sure there was some warnings in the paperwork that I signed, but I don't know, it was just, it was like getting my hair done or my nails done. Like, I didn't really think about it until recently. It's been almost probably a year ago. I was, you know, I told you, I kind of dove into this whole ingredient reading, toxic, whatever, non toxic lifestyle. I kind of dove into it backwards. And so I was like, wait a minute, Botox like this for sure is not good. But I was really scared to look into it for a long time. And so I actually interviewed on my podcast the attorney who, he sued Allergan, the manufacturer of Botox, for all of these cases back years ago, before they had put black box warnings on Botox and like horrific injuries, death. These women had such horrific neurological issues after getting Botox. Just the Botox poisoning and So I. After that podcast, I kind of started speaking up about it on. On my social media. And I have had so many women reach out to me since that saying, I got Botox. And then I had all of these symptoms. I had all these horrible things that happened to me. I think something I didn't ever really put two and two together is the autoimmune response that happens in your body after you get Botox or filler. And so now we're hearing women being told, well, if you have thyroid issues or if you have, like, autoimmune, you know, any kind of autoimmune issues, you shouldn't be getting Botox. And I'm thinking, people don't know this, and people are not being properly screened for this. And the injectors are not. They're definitely not asking, not asking or warning people about that at all.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Whitney DeBona]

And so I think there's a huge issue with all the cosmetic stuff, with injuries being underreported. And we saw this with breast implants. I mean, all these women had breast implants. The breast implants got recalled, and they couldn't find the women to tell them that. There's tons of women out there right now with these recalled breast implants that don't even know that they have recalled breast implants because they had no way to track them down or find them.

[Host]

And so horrifying.

[Whitney DeBona]

I think it's the same thing with, you know, Botox injuries. I think women are being kind of gaslit about a lot of these things. They're going back to the provider saying, hey, I got these injections and I've had all these symptoms. And they're saying, oh, it's from something else. It's not from the Botox. And so that's just a whole nother issue. And, you know, I just kind of decided after I really looked into everything and did the research on it, I.

[Host]

Was like, I don't wanna do that.

[Whitney DeBona]

Like, I don't wanna put that in my body anymore. Because. Because I talk to so many women, I think people think, oh, I've been doing it forever. I've never had a problem. It's fine. But then I've heard from all these women who were like, yeah, I did it for 10 years, and then this time when I got it all, hell broke loose and I had these horrific symptoms and my life was ruined for years. And it's just. I think that it's just made out to be, like, going to get your nails done, and it's really not. It's A serious. It's a serious thing. And I don't know. I think we're gonna find out more and more as time goes on about, you know, the impacts of what. It's literally one of the most deadly toxins known to man. And you're telling me that going and injecting that into my face every three to four months is perfectly fine and safe. And I understand there's people with medical conditions, and it can help different things, but the way that it's being used right now. I saw a video yesterday. They were injecting it into a woman's calves to, like, slim her calf muscles. Literally in the video, it said, like, so you can fit into your boots this season. And I'm like, what? I saw another video where they were putting it in the bottom of a woman's foot so that she could wear high heels without pain. And I'm.

[Courtney]

Oh, my God.

[Whitney DeBona]

I'm like, people are nuts. It's going to. We're going off the deal.

[Host]

We're going haywire.

[Whitney DeBona]

We're going crazy.

[Host]

Ew.

[Courtney]

Oh, that's so.

[Host]

That, like, really freaks me out. I had a friend a couple years ago that got all these injections in her neck and under her armpits, and I was like, oh, ew. Like, oh, it makes me cringe.

[Whitney DeBona]

I know the. Under the armpits. A lot of people do that for sweating. And like we were talking about earlier, that's just.

[Host]

You need to sweat to sweat.

[Whitney DeBona]

That's such a sensitive area of your body. And I don't know, but they're just putting it everywhere now. And that was the thing with me as time went on. You know, it starts out with, you know, 30 units or whatever, and then before you know it, they're like, well, now we're up to 150 units. And, you know, it keeps going down further down your face. And then they're injecting it in people's trap muscles now. And it's. It's just getting.

[Host]

Yeah, it's getting out of control.

[Whitney DeBona]

It's getting out of control.

[Host]

I have a lot of friends that are getting really into face tape now. I did a session with my friend who I need to bring on the podcast, Jamie Ann. Her name is Jamie Anesthetics on Instagram. And she works with this other woman, and they do a lot of face taping master classes. And I did a FaceTime with her recently because I was always super. I just was like, I don't know that I have time to face tape every night. It just felt Very, like. I don't know what the word is, but I was like, this is too much for me every night. And then I did a session with her, and I was like, oh, this is really easy. And it took me, like, less than five minutes to do it. And I was, like, taping up my forehead and, like, doing all these things. And I think. Think if people can get on that early enough. Like, I wish I had started doing that when I was, like, 28.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I wish I started gua shaying when I was, like, 25. So if you're listening and you're younger, I highly recommend looking into doing that now, no matter what age you're at.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yep.

[Host]

Because I wish I had started it when I was younger. My friend Celeste hasn't gotten Botox in, like, a year because she's been pregnant, and she just has been trying to be off of it now. And she face tapes every night and she gouaches and she loves. Looks amazing.

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah, I've been using. I started using the frownies, and same at the. The first time I used them, I was like, what the. I can't. Yeah, I can't do this every time.

[Host]

My fiance was like, huh?

[Whitney DeBona]

Yeah.

[Host]

He got in bed with me, he was like, what did you do to your face?

[Whitney DeBona]

My husband's used to it now, and my kids, too. Like, I walk around with my face all taped up and they just don't even. It's like, oh, that's just. Mom. It's fine. So funny. But, yeah, the frownies, the face taping, all those things. I wish I knew about them when I was in my 20s versus they just tell everybody, oh, you need baby Botox now. Just start getting your Botox. But they don't tell you to take care of your skin. And that was all I was doing. I mean, I was using, like, cetaphil face, you know, their little moisturizer, and then getting Botox every however many months, because that was what I thought was taking care of my skin. And I just wish that someone had said, hey, you could do these other things. Instead, I'm like, think of all the money that I could have spent, all these, you know, toxins that I could have not been putting in my body for all these years. There's some studies out now that are saying it can actually age your skin faster, that it can cause skin thinning and all these things. Nobody told me any of that when I started doing it, and nobody's telling these young girls that now. And I just. I don't know there's just so much in the cosmetic world that has just really started to give me the ick with more that I have looked at it all. And just the way that it's all advertised and shown to people, I don't know, it's.

[Host]

It feels predatory.

[Whitney DeBona]

It feels very predatory and gross.

[Host]

Like you said, women are starting at younger and younger. I'm so glad that I never got on this trend. But yeah, I knew all these people that were doing baby Botox and they were like in their 20s and early 30s, and I just. It freaks me out. And I think women are doing it younger and younger. I'm seeing these girls online that are like, supposedly they're 18, but they're like 14, and they're getting like lip filler and stuff. And it's so horrifying and it makes them look old.

[Whitney DeBona]

I watched an episode of the Bachelor recently. I don't watch it on a regular basis, but it was like the first episode and they're introducing like when all the girls are getting out of the car and it was saying how old they were. And I'm like, that girl is 26. Like, she looks like she's my age or she looks like she's in her 40s. You can't tell how old people are anymore. It's. It's crazy and it's a big problem. I think the fillers are a huge issue. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. Her daughter is probably 22, she's in college, and she said her daughter keeps begging her to go get lip filler because all the friends are doing it, everybody's getting it, and it's just like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, what is happening? And then I'm like, you still have these girls with all of this filler and Botox in their faces, and then they're still using these face altering filters on Instagram. So it's like you're doing all this to yourself and you still don't even like how you look. And you're filtering your face now and it's just, I don't know, it's so.

[Host]

Challenging for that age group. I feel like I'm so grateful that I grew up in the generation that I did. I feel like we're probably around the same age that I'm just so grateful that when I was in high school, we didn't have Instagram and filters. And like, we weren't worried so much about. I mean, we were definitely not worried about contouring our face, but we were, like, barely wearing makeup then.

[Whitney DeBona]

I know.

[Host]

And it's just. It's a whole different world now. And I. And, yeah, you're just. You're so young. You don't fully understand the repercussions of the choices that you're making, especially if you're altering your body at, like, such a young age. And it's just. It's heartbreaking.

[Whitney DeBona]

It really is. And, like, I have a daughter now, and I'm just sitting here going, oh, my God, how. You know, how are we gonna navigate all of this? And, I mean, I would be devastated if she came to me at 18 and is wanting to change her face, you know, and inject things into her face. But. But it's just being sold on social media and targeted to women and young girls. Like, oh, it's just no big deal. Just go get, you know, go get some lip filler. Go get some. Whatever filler in your cheeks. Go get your. You know, get your Botox. Do all these things. And I don't know, it's. It's really scary. And that's another area where I think we really need a lot of regulation. Regulation is with the advertising for all of that stuff, so.

[Host]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, I got through all my questions, and is there anything else that you feel like the audience needs to know that we didn't cover?

[Whitney DeBona]

I don't think so. I mean, I think we really covered.

[Host]

Yeah, we covered a lot. It was awesome. I. When you first, like, right before you sat down, I was like, all right, girl, I got so many questions for you. I hope we can get through all of them. So I'm so glad we did. We really covered the whole gamut of it. And so I'm. Yeah, I'm just so grateful that you came on today. This was awesome.

[Whitney DeBona]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.

[Host]

Thank you.

[Courtney]

Thank you so much for listening to the Real Foodology podcast. This is a Wellness Loud production produced by Drake Peterson and mixed by Mike Fry. Theme song is by Georgie. You can watch the full video version of this podcast inside the Spotify app or on YouTube. As always, you can leave us a voicemail by clicking the link in our bio. And if you like this episode, please rate and review on your podcast app.

[Host]

For more shows by my team, go.

[Courtney]

To wellnessloud.com See you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual.

[Host]

Medical and mental health advice and doesn't.

[Courtney]

Constitute a provider, patient relationship I am.

[Host]

A nutritionist, but I am not your nutritionist.

[Courtney]

As always, talk to your doctor or your health team first.

[Dr. Tina Moore]

Are you ready to rock middle age? I'm Dr. Tina Moore, Gen X truth teller and holistic physician. On the Dr. Tina show, one of Apple podcast Top Alternative Health Shows, I share what actually works for metabolic health, hormones and strength. Backed by decades of clinical results, not trends. From loving the gym and hitting your protein goals to peptides and microdosing GLP1s, it's all done the right way, not the hype way, because menopause doesn't have to suck if you're fit. New episodes every Thursday, produced by Drake Peterson and Wellness Loud.