Parent 2 (Father) (1:22)

Her subject line is when does a boundary become shame?

Janet Lansbury (Host) (1:27)

But the questions she brings up are also about how to get on the same page with a partner who's doing it a little bit differently, how to set boundaries effectively, and also how to understand why a child might be acting out, for lack of a better term, with one parent more than the other. What is it in children that makes them seem to have more impulsive behavior around us?

Parent 2 (Father) (1:55)

So I'm going to dive right into

Janet Lansbury (Host) (1:56)

her note and then start detecting and exploring what's going on here.

Parent 2 (Father) (2:03)

Dear Janet, thank you for all your work. I've been listening to your podcast ardently and it has honestly been so refreshing and helped me understand my approach to raising my three year old son. I have a specific question about nuanced differences in the approach my partner and I take to our son's behavior. We are very much on the same page about taking a respectful approach with him, treating him as a whole person with his own thoughts and feelings, allowing those feelings while also holding boundaries around behaviors that are or aren't okay. On the whole, I feel my son is quite mature and understanding and when he's in the right frame of mind we can usually speak to him reasonably about things like not putting shoes on the sofa, being gentle with houseplants, not throwing things or toys, etc. My question is specifically about moments when he seems more dysregulated. For example, he might suddenly throw a fork from the table or start plucking flowers from a plant while otherwise playing happily. My instinct in these moments is to intervene gently and calmly without rushing or escalating. I'll physically help him stop if needed, and say something like, I can't let you do that, or I'm going to help you here. If I can see he's struggling to resist the impulse or keeps going back to it, I'll usually remove him from the situation or put the object away. My husband is also aligned with this overall philosophy, but in these moments he tends to be firmer and stronger in his tone when saying no. He also feels it's important to explain why something isn't okay and often wants our son to help correct the action afterwards. This is where I sometimes feel unsure about where the line is and whether

Janet Lansbury (Host) (3:48)

the distinction I'm sensing is real or

Parent 2 (Father) (3:51)

just in my head. For example, recently my husband and son were arranging flowers together in a small pot of water. At some point, our son started pulling at the flowers and the pot tipped over, spilling water everywhere. My husband understandably told him that wasn't okay and then made a point of having him help clean up the water and put the flowers back. He also said something like, don't be destructive. It's not nice to be so destructive and break things. One morning, my son was quite dysregulated, probably hungry and tired. He and my husband were watching bird videos on the phone in bed, and suddenly my son snatched the phone and threw it. Obviously, both of us agree that this wasn't okay. My instinct in that moment would have been something like, oops, I can't let

Janet Lansbury (Host) (4:39)

you throw the phone.

Parent 2 (Father) (4:40)

It looks like you're having a hard time right now, so we're going to put the phone away and go downstairs for breakfast. Even if I don't say all this, I would physically remove the phone and move on. My husband's response was more along the lines of, no, that's not okay. You cannot throw my phone. Pick it up now. His tone was frustrated and stern. What stayed with me was seeing my son's face. Afterwards, he became very quiet and walked away looking ashamed. I think what I'm struggling with is understanding the difference between setting a clear boundary versus unintentionally making a child feel shame about dysregulated behavior. My feeling is often that he doesn't want to do these things, but in

Janet Lansbury (Host) (5:24)

those moments he genuinely cannot regulate the

Parent 2 (Father) (5:26)

impulse, so so my role is mainly to calmly stop him and help him through it. At the same time, my husband has observed something that I'm trying to stay open minded about. He feels our son is more likely to act out when I'm around, whereas when he is alone with him, he tends to listen more and behave more calmly. I'm not sure I fully agree with the interpretation that this is because I'm permissive, because I do hold boundaries and say no when needed. For example, if he asks me to play while I'm cooking, I'll ask him to wait until I'm done. If he wants something we can't do or have, I'll hold that limit. Even if he cries or gets upset, I don't tend to use sternness or anger in my voice, but I also don't feel I'm simply giving in. So I suppose I'm trying to understand a few things. Is there a meaningful difference between our approaches? How do we distinguish between healthy boundaries and responses that may create shame? Why might a child appear more dysregulated with one parent than the other? And how can we get more aligned in these moments without undermining one another?

Janet Lansbury (Host) (6:35)

I recently listened to your podcast where

Parent 2 (Father) (6:37)

you mentioned that if someone consistently notices something in our interactions with our child, it's worth staying open to the possibility that there may be some truth in it. That really stayed with me and I'm trying to approach this with curiosity rather than defensiveness.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (6:53)

I appreciate this is a really long

Parent 2 (Father) (6:55)

note and you have so many of these to read. Thank you so much for everything you share. So yeah, I want to say I appreciate this parent's openness.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (7:05)

She's obviously highly self reflective and really sincerely committed to understanding herself and how to be the best parent she can be. And I find it very moving how open and willing she is to even look at that maybe her husband's seeing something that she isn't seeing and how to navigate this. I also really appreciate that she offered so many specific examples because that helps me to understand what's going on here because the way that I do this, the way that I try to understand a situation and answer the person's questions, I actually imagine myself as this child and what I'm feeling during these experiences, why I'm continuing to act out or, you know, getting that expression on my face that this parent saw after the little child's dad corrected him. What is going on for this child? And of course, this is always guesswork. It's much easier to see when I get to do an in person consultation because I can really pick up on what's going on with the child, what they're feeling there. I mean, children have it all over their face, right? It's in their body language, everything you can tell how they're taking something. And if you've observed a lot of children for a long time, like I have, you can sense what's behind the impulse even. And then when I'm on the phone with a parent doing a consultation, which I haven't had time to do for a long time now because I've been writing my book, this is the second easiest way because I can hear the parent's tone as they're giving me examples. And I ask for examples. I ask for a lot of examples so I can hear how this parent is reacting. Then, of course, it's hardest to do this in print. But I do like the challenge. What I sense here is a little child who isn't entirely feeling seen. I mean, of course they are allowing his feelings. They're seeing him a lot more than the average parent of my generation did. That's for sure. They are seeing him. They're allowing him to be himself. They're doing all these wonderful, respectful things. Right? In these moments, though, where he's acting out, that's where it's really hard, especially when we haven't experienced this in our own life as a child, that's where it is really hard to do. This thing that we always hear about connect when we correct. And people say connect before you correct, but it's really connect before, during and after. It's correcting, if we want to call it that. It's setting a boundary from a place of connection. And integral to that is I see you, I see this child that I know intimately. So it's hard to do what I'm talking about. And both these parents probably have come a long way from maybe from the way that they were raised in all these efforts that they're making, which are all paying off and going to always pay off in their relationship with their child. It sounds like both of these parents have a very healthy, positive relationship with their child. So this, as this parent said in the beginning of her note, is about nuances. And speaking of nuances, or maybe it's not so nuanced. There are some very loud birds having a party outside my window. So I apologize if that's a distraction. But back to this note. What I'm getting is a very subtle sense that as this child, I feel like my mom is kind of glossing over or avoiding really seeing me when I'm doing these things, these impulsive things, these silly things.

Parent 2 (Father) (10:59)

Right.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (11:00)

That my parents know, I know as the child are not cool. They're not okay to do. It's not like I need to be told that. And you've heard me say here, probably most children, even later in infancy, by then they even have a sense of, like, what they're supposed to do and not do. And Certainly by age 3, they know this. So I think these parents know that too. And this mother is spot on and seeing that this is impulsive behavior that,

Parent 2 (Father) (11:28)

as she says, stems from dysregulation on

Janet Lansbury (Host) (11:32)

some level, not conscious intentional behavior. So what do I mean by mom glossing over and maybe avoiding really seeing him? This mom said, when he threw a fork from the table or starts plucking flowers from a plant while otherwise playing happily, I'll physically help him stop if needed and say something like, I can't let you do that, or I'm going to help you here.

Parent 2 (Father) (11:56)

If I can see he's struggling to

Janet Lansbury (Host) (11:58)

resist the impulse or keeps going back to it, I'll. I'll usually remove him from the situation or put the object away. Okay, so I'm this little boy, and my mom says, I can't let you do that. I knew she wasn't going to let me do that. And I'm going to help you here. What I want as this child, is for her to look me in the eye and say, where did that come from? What's going on here? Not expecting some clear answer because as this parent well knows, this is impulsive behavior. But just like, who did you just become there? Who's this? Things they should throw at the table. You know this. Come on, what's up? So he can get that bit of attention for where he's at right there. And as his parents said, it's often that he's hungry or tired or there's some reason. Other times, though, it's really just. Just see all the sides of me and, yeah, help me with these sides. I do need the help. But see it. See that I'm all these different things and ideally be unconditionally loving of all of these things. Not that we're going to enjoy all the sides of our children necessarily, but we're accepting unconditionally this parent's doing that. But I think that's not being communicated to her son. She's being calm and gentle and understanding of his possible dysregulation.

Parent 2 (Father) (13:25)

There's.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (13:25)

But just not quite giving him that one thing. Recognition. What's going on? You're throwing forks. What is that about? Are you saying you need to get down? Okay. And I'm saying this with kind of

Parent 2 (Father) (13:38)

a smile in my voice, but you

Janet Lansbury (Host) (13:40)

can be like, all right, mister, what's happening here? Something that sees exactly what this parent knows. This is impulsive behavior. It's coming from some kind of dysregulation. And this is my boy, who could be so, as she says, quite mature

Parent 2 (Father) (13:54)

and understanding when he's in the right frame of mind and very reasonable, understands

Janet Lansbury (Host) (14:00)

all the rules very, very well.

Parent 2 (Father) (14:03)

Where'd you just go there?

Janet Lansbury (Host) (14:05)

And it's not about getting the answer to what's going on with them. Why is he doing that? It's about just connecting with that person that you know and love that didn't

Parent 2 (Father) (14:17)

have a great moment there.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (14:19)

It needs you to see that too, and not just help him with it and stop it from happening, but to check it out just for a second. So that's all that I see this parent could do that could take her over the hump. And I believe, reflecting on her other question about why is he doing this more with me? I think this is part of the reason he's doing it more with his mother.

Parent 2 (Father) (14:44)

You know, she's always helping him and she's being so kind about it and

Janet Lansbury (Host) (14:47)

stopping him nicely and not getting mad at him. But I don't know if I'm here for her in these moments. I just want to be here for her then, too. And I think if she does that also, that it's going to happen much less unless he is exhausted and really does need to go to bed, that he gets stuck doing it and doing it and doing it, and then she has to remove him. I would certainly take the thing, if it's a fork or whatever, you know, and not hand it right back to him or let him keep doing stuff with the flowers and expect that my words are going to stop him. I'd have my hand up like, looks like you're just attacking these right now. What's going on with that? You're getting wound up about something. So again, it's being open to him. Not expecting we're going to get the answer to these kind of questions, but showing him we're open, we're interested in why he does this, I believe that will be enough to help him do this. Less. I mean, I don't know if he's even doing this a lot, but here's something I see this little step into closer connection that she might be missing and could be really, really easy for her to get when she realizes that it matters. It matters to children.

Parent 2 (Father) (16:07)

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Janet Lansbury (Host) (16:15)

He'll eat a sneaker if there's garlic on it. So yes, we use a lot of

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Janet Lansbury (Host) (18:38)

And this also brings me to where the husband can tweak a little bit as well if he wants to, that he is seeing his son, but he's seeing this really annoying side, the naughty side or whatever, the rascally side, and he's not liking that side. And I'm not saying we're gonna like that side. But, yeah, it's a little bit of shaming. Not drastic or, you know, really impactful, I don't think. But it's enough that he doesn't want to do this with dad as much. Not that he wants to do it at all if it's impulsive behavior. But he works on controlling it more with dad because he doesn't want to feel like dad doesn't like these sides of him. And I'm not saying we're supposed to like every side of our child again, because this is annoying behavior. Right? All kids have annoying, obnoxious behavior. But if dad could see, too, what this mom is seeing, which is the dysregulation, and have more of a similar response to what I suggested for her, where he's just like, hey, buddy, not cool. Don't do that stuff. He can be that strong about it. But just being less sort of personally offended would help, maybe, you know, saying something like, where'd my boy go there? Why are you doing this stuff? Not expecting answers, but putting it out there. We know this isn't who you are all the time, so what just happened? Not that we need to explain again why it's bad and wrong and all these reasonable ways that we want to react to children. Because it's hard to believe that these behaviors are impulsive and not a bit intentional, but they're impulsive in terms of dysregulation, but also in terms of. I kind of want to get a response here. I think, from his dad. He's feeling like. Well, he sees me, like, maybe even a little more than mom does, but he's not liking what he sees in these moments.

Parent 2 (Father) (20:36)

And I'm sure there's many other moments

Janet Lansbury (Host) (20:39)

where they have this wonderful, affectionate relationship. But, yeah, there's these sides to me that I have to work to try to put away around dad, unless I'm just kind of craving to be seen more as myself. And then I'll show him this side. Again, not a conscious process going on, but part of the impulse. So the husband's response is more along the lines of, no, that's not okay.

Parent 2 (Father) (21:02)

You cannot throw my phone.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (21:04)

Pick it up now. And you know, if we want to insist our child picks it up, we can do that. It will work better if we do it from a place of. Not that it's news to him that he can't throw the phone, because it's not. So it might come out more like, why are you throwing phones all of a sudden? Will you pick that up for me, please? We can be just as effective with that tiny adjustment. But what it takes is this challenge of really being able to understand that these flashes of behaviors are typical for young children and not in their conscious control as much as they may appear. Because reasonably, no, he doesn't want to do anything to change his dad's opinion of him or make his dad annoyed with him or his mom. He idolizes both of them, as children do at this age. This is like, we'll never be more popular than we were with a 3 year old. Even if they're doing the rejection thing on us. They're so deeply in love with us in these early years, and they're always trying to discover who they are to us, looking for those messages and exploring those messages, sometimes by repeating behaviors. So what I'm saying overall is I don't believe the issue here is so much that this child is feeling shamed. I think he just needs to feel a little more seen as the whole person that he is, the whole person that these parents know he is. It's just this little move closer to seeing the whole person. So this is another example also of what I was saying in that other podcast episode that this parent brought up, where I suggested that sometimes the other parent is seeing things that you're not. What we do tend to do as parents is kind of complement each other, right? So mom seeing him in all these positive ways and understanding his dysregulation, but she's not quite able to connect with him when he's in that. And dad is seeing, like, the downside of him and not seeing the dysregulation as much so as this boy, I'm feeling like, well, I'm getting this from dad and I'm trying to get this from mom. And, yeah, I kind of need to keep working on this, you know, on some unconscious level. And both these parents can tweak more into whatever it is the center of being with this person who has every color in the rainbow in him and feels most comfortable and safe. And connected when we're seeing all of those colors at once. I hope that doesn't sound like a tall order. And let me just make sure I've answered all this parent's direct questions.

Parent 2 (Father) (23:58)

Is there a meaningful difference between our approaches?

Janet Lansbury (Host) (24:01)

So, yeah, that's the difference. I think I've hopefully explained what I see as the difference. And in a way, it's not that different because both parents are not completely seeing him in the way that he wants to be seen.

Parent 2 (Father) (24:15)

How do we distinguish between healthy boundaries and responses that may create shame?

Janet Lansbury (Host) (24:20)

This is, again, in this nuanced adjustment I'm suggesting, which is seeing the whole person. And sometimes they go off seeing that as a place they need our help, like this mother does. But maybe the dad isn't seeing that quite as much. So therefore his responses have been maybe

Parent 2 (Father) (24:37)

a little more shaming.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (24:38)

But, you know, that is easy to

Parent 2 (Father) (24:40)

change if this parent wants to.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (24:42)

And like I said, I'm not seeing anything harsh here. Why might a child appear more dysregulated with one parent than the other? I hope I've answered that. It's in this idea of what a child is seeking, and that's becoming part of their impulse to do a certain behavior. Oftentimes children will act out because they want to show us that there are these other sides to them, or that they are too tired or they are too hungry or they feel too distant from us. But in this case, like I said, I think that maybe this is happening with his mother more because she's having these perfect, lovely responses that aren't really quite connecting with him. And how can we get more aligned in these moments without undermining the other? Understand the positives that both of you are bringing to this and that you're both missing. Maybe something that could bring you closer to him and help him feel calmer and more regulated. Unless he's too tired or hungry or all the other reasons children do this. So, yeah, what I was saying in that other podcast is that I've never found it to be just one person that's doing everything, quote, wrong, and the other person's doing it all, quote, right. So this is a lot.

Parent 2 (Father) (25:58)

Right.

Janet Lansbury (Host) (25:59)

And it's very nuanced. I love these kinds of questions that really get into the details. And I know a lot of people have been writing to me recently with quite severe, you know, problems that are going on that really seem overwhelming. I'm going to get to some of those notes very soon. But this, I hope, is something we can all take, something from this recognition that children need to be seen and connected with as three dimensional, immature, impulsive, imperfect people that we treasure. There's a lot more on this, of course, in my no Bad kids course@nobadkidscourse.com and also in my book no Bad Kids. I hope you all had a wonderful Mother's Day. I'm looking forward to sharing some big announcements with you soon. Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

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