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ScreenStrong Families
It’s Not Strict, It’s Protective: The Truth About Phone-Free Schools with Kathleen Barlow (#258)
00:48:47
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Foreign. Hey, everyone.
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Welcome to the Screenstrong Families Podcast, bringing you the best solutions for parents who are serious about eliminating screen conflicts in their homes. This is Mandy Hammond, ambassador, liaison and speaker on the Screenstrong team, and I get to be your host for today's episode. Thank you so much for joining us. If you are new here, you may not know this about Screenstrong, but we have an incredible team of ambassadors around the globe who are trained to present Screenstrong's educational workshops to parents, caregivers, teachers, students. It's so fun. And I have the privilege of getting to know each of these people through our interview and training process and then supporting them along the way. So it's been a while since I've been able to feature one of our Screenstrong ambassadors on the show. So I've really been looking forward to this conversation and it's so fun when you meet like minded people that are in this space and you might be listening and you're one of them and realizing you're finding your people right now. But it's so fun. Even on the interviews, you know, they're about 20, 30 minutes long and during them it's like you start talking to some of these individuals and you just, you're so passionate and your, your passion fuels each other's passion around this topic and just saving kids and preserving childhood. And so those are who our ambassadors are. They're passionate about this.
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They.
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And our guest today is no different. She lives this out in more ways than one. So let me take a second to introduce her and then we will get going in this conversation. So today our guest is Kathleen Barlow. She is a mother of six and a grandmother of three. She's a former French teacher who left education in 2024 to raise awareness about the negative impact of digital technology overuse, particularly in schools, which we're going to really dive into today. She advocates for spending less time on screens and being more intentional in fostering real life connections. Kathleen serves on the leadership team of Smartphone Free Childhood US and is a member of the Screen Time Action Network and Tech Safe Learning Coalition. And she's also a part of our speaking ambassador team here at Screenstrong and we're so happy to have her.
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So welcome to the show, Kathleen. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here, Mandy.
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I know, me too.
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I know we've been talking about this
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last couple of months, getting it on the books, and I'm just, I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you today.
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So let's start out with just you
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telling your audience a little bit about yourself, your background. Let's just hop right in and we'll
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see where this conversation takes us. Okay, sure. Well, first I have to make one small correction to my bio because we now have, we now have four grandchildren. So that's an important correction. It was, I know we just had a little baby, Sophia a couple of weeks ago. My son and his, and his wife, my daughter in law. So that's exciting. Congratulations. That's. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm so excited to be here because I, I have said this before, but I always think of the Screenstrong podcast was like my, I feel like Melanie's podcast is the OG place where for, for me, where I started learning more about screen time. I mean, many years ago now. Yeah. And so it's such a privilege to be on, on with you and also to be a new Screenstrong ambassador, which I have been very busy this fall and I haven't had a lot of time to sink into that yet. But I am so excited next year to start doing presentations at schools in my, in my local area in Utah. So I'm so excited because the curriculum with Screenstrong is, is amazing and I feel like a lot of people just are not understanding yet the brain science behind, you know, behind what is happening with our kids and screens. So let me just tell you a little bit about where, why I am here. So, yeah, I have, I have six kids. My oldest is 31. My youngest are twins that are 19. And so I feel like I've seen kind of the gamut of my oldest kids. Didn't really have much screen time. Well, they had tv, of course, and back then I just didn't know, I just didn't know what I should be looking for as far as the dangers of excessive screen time. So they had plenty of cartoons that they watched and things like that, but it was just nothing compared to what started happening as my younger kids started getting all these, just these toxic screen time, you know, in their lives every day for, for many hours a day. And so at the same time, when my youngest kids went to school, I, I went back to teaching French. And so I started that in 2012 until about 2024 with a little bit of time in between because we, we did a cross country move from New Hampshire to Utah. But, but during that time as a teacher and as a mom, I just was becoming more and more concerned with what was happening to our kids as they just spent more and more time on their devices. And so yeah, we moved in 2020 during COVID I actually took a couple years of away from teaching because I was really trying to focus on my, my youngest teenagers at the time, and they were having a number of struggles like a lot of teenagers do, especially today. And I, and I started connecting the dots more and more that, that a lot of their struggles I felt like were coming from just excess excessive screen use. So. But back in, then in 2023 or so, I decided to give teaching out here in Utah a try. And so I, there was a French teaching position here and so I, I started teaching at a middle school and it, it just became clear pretty quickly that things had escalated, you know, even, even in the couple of years. Of course, now we're post Covid at that time. And so that just exacerbated all of these silly green issues, you know. But so I, I ended up like in March of that year. And I feel, I feel kind of ashamed to say this because I, I, it's just hard to leave teaching right mid, mid school year. But I, I left in March and I just, I said to my husband one day, I texted him from after school and I said, what do you think of me just quitting? You know? And he said, I'll come, he said, I'll come. Pack up your class from tonight. Really? It was that stressful be.
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And you think it's because of this? Like, because.
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Well, I just think, yeah, a lot of it was because I was just, I, I was just so disheartened because as a teacher, I felt like one of my superpowers had always been connecting with my students. And that was one of the biggest rewards for me as a teacher as well. And I just felt like these screens were blocking that ability for me to connect with my students, especially this particular year with these middle school kids. They had no interest in me. They had no interest in, in, in connecting. I mean, and of course that's a generalization, right? It wasn't like it was like that for every student, but that was the general that I had in that classroom. They had their screens and that was most important to them. And because I was very strict about phones in my classroom, in fact that year I, you know, I said from the moment you enter my classroom till the moment you leave, there's not, you're not going to have your phones out. And because there was no bell to belt band and I think then students resented me for that as well. And so it, so it drove an even bigger wedge. I feel like between me and my students. And so yeah, I actually did give my school a month's notice. But I, and I, they did find a replacement for me, which was great, but I wasn't sure what I was going to do, you know, and I just knew that I felt like I had to do something to bring awareness to what was going on in schools with our kids, you know, and, and it was funny because two weeks after I left, the anxious generation came out with, with Jonathan Haidt. And, and so I read that I was so excited about what he was trying to do. And as he was trying to, I felt, I feel like just amplify the messages that people like you at Screenstrong had been, have been shouting from the rooftops for years. Right. But I feel like he had a great platform to be able to really spread this message. And, and it was from there that I heard about this group in the UK called Smartphone Free Childhood. And so I ended up joining this global webinar that they had in May of 2024. And long story short, me and some other people, just citizens of the United States, got together and we started having, because they were inviting Smartphone for Childhood was inviting anybody in the world to kind of hop on board because it went really viral out there in the uk what they, their movement. So we, we started our own organization here in the United States. And, and, and I became part of the leadership team, which there's nine of us currently on. And so we have been just trying to do a lot of, you know, advocating and educating and trying. Our biggest thing at first was we were trying to get phones out of schools, you know, Bell to Bell bands, which we're still working on, but there's been tons of progress in that. Now we're looking at Chromebooks because Chromebooks are just as bad in the class.
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They're still connected to everybody.
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Exactly, exactly. They still are the distraction devices. Right. And but in the meantime, I mean, this is, we're doing this as volunteers, right? And so I thought, okay, I've got to be making some kind of income. And so I decided to, to start substitute teaching this past fall. And I, I, I, I chose the largest school district in Utah because I knew that they were reporting some good Bell to Bell bands in some of the schools. I, by the way, let me just tell you, in Utah last year I did work on policy for a Bell to belt ban. I was working actually with a group called the Policy Project. But as you know, as happens when you're, when you're creating policy, which I'M new to all this, but it often doesn't turn out quite like you're hoping. So I, you know, I was hoping that a bell to bell ban would be passed, but was, you know, it just turns out that so many people are still hesitant about that. And so the policy that Utah has is, is instructional time only. Which in my opinion is, is no better than what. What had been happening before because you're still leaving it up to teachers to police phones in classrooms. And then it's like, I feel like almost a little bit worse for kids sometimes because they're just so anxious to be able to get out of class on their phone.
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Right.
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And then lunchtime in the hallways, which is the most important time for socialization. They're not getting that because they're back to their addiction, to be honest. You know. Okay, so wait, pause for just a second.
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Why, why are people against doing that? Like, why are these policymakers, like, what's the pushback?
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Well, I think that policymakers in general are hesitant because of what they hear from parents. And I feel like a lot of parents, and I don't know if this is just Utah, a lot of parents don't want to be told what to do with their kids, which I understand to an extent for sure. But. But when we're talking about an addictive product, like we don't let our kids smoke, we don't let our kids gamble, we don't let our kids drink, you know, until a certain age when they are, we feel like they're adults enough and their brains have developed enough to make those decisions for themselves. Right. And so we feel like this is no different. This is an addictive product that we're putting in kids hands. But there are still a lot of parents who are hesitant. And to be honest, Mandy, a lot of parents are, are anxious themselves when they are not connected 247 to their kids. I mean, there's this unnatural tethering right of, of kids to parents and it's making everybody more anxious.
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So true. Okay, that was really good. Okay, so sorry I derailed you for a second, but I'm just like. Because when you're in this space so often it feels like common sense to us to be like, why, why would anybody allow them to still just get the phone out during passing period? Or like that makes no sense, like everything we're saying. But then, so then I'm going well against it, you know, and I hear what they say in workshops. You know, parents are worried about the safety aspect and a lot of myths you kind of have to dispel to get parents to go, oh, oh, okay, yeah, that's, you know. Well, what were we going with that before?
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Well, can I just hit on what you just said? The, the other big thing that I didn't mention is the safety aspect. So parents are convinced that if there was an emergency of any kind, especially people look to school shootings, that their kids are going to be safer if they can contact their parents. And, and what I tell parents, and by the way, there is a letter, I don't know if you've seen this from the national sro is that School Resource Officer, I think the national SRO organization that they have stated that the safest thing for kids during any kind of school emergency is for them to not have contact, to not be connected like that, you know, and, and so, but, but, and I think if parents were to just kind of think through what that would look like and what that has looked like when there have been emergencies and there are 1500 or 2000 kids who are connected to the outside world, there are so many things that can happen like of course spreading false rumors quickly on social media and then alerting parents who are then showing up at the schools and then emergence and the SROs have said this, that but then there are parents showing up to the school blocking the way for emergency personnel to get through. It's just, I just think a parent needs to think, would you want your kid to be at a school during an emergency where his 1500 schoolmates all have access to a device? And I would say definitely not. I would hope that parents. And I think that maybe as we are seeing throughout the country, we're seeing more bell to bell bands, we're seeing the success that's, that's coming about from it. I think that parents are going to hopefully think it through a little bit more. And I get it. I mean it is scary to think of an awful situation, any kind of awful situation happening. Right. And we want to be able to know that our kids are safe. But part of this whole problem with being so connected to each other and over connected to each other through our devices is that we have to kind of learn to live through that discomfort again.
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No, that's totally true. And, and I, I guess I want to paint a picture too. As parents picture your child on their phone and you're giving them instructions to go set the table or clean up dinner or do their laundry or whatever it is. And they don't hear you, right? They don't heal you, they, you get frustrated, like put down your phone and listen to me. So imagine that in an emergency situation you've got 1500 kids and you know, 95% of them are on phones and distracted. How are they going to hear the adults that are in charge giving instruction, what to do? You know, so there's usually when you start painting that picture, parents start to go, oh, I see now why, yes, just not even have these in the picture because we need our kids to be present, you know, in those situations.
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For sure, for sure. And There are currently 19 states in the United States that are using or that have created Bell to bell policy. And we just are hearing so many great stories of schools and the, I mean the myriad improvements they're seeing across the board when phones are not part of the equation, you know. So yeah, so I, so I decided to sub in this school district. I was excited to see what was, what was happening with policies. There's one very large high school in particular that had started using yonder pouches. Not this year, but the last. And so I was interested to see how that was working at smartphone free childhood us we really advocate for phones to be inaccessible to students. And that is something that's even evolved Even in the 18 months that we've been working together. I think at first we were a lot more intrigued by yonder pouches and not to throw shade at these pouches. But what we're finding is that kids can break into them, they're finding ways around them. And not only that, but the phone is still in their, it's in their, it's in their vision. Right. It's in their sight. They are thinking about it. And so what we really suggest is that locker storage or some other way to make phones inaccessible throughout the day. And that has been proven to me by, as I've subbed and I think I've subbed in about 15 or maybe almost close to 20 schools over these this last semester, junior high and high school. And it has been really very interesting to see what is going on and how things like for, for the junior. Okay. For middle schools in Utah, actually it is supposed to be bell to bell
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but once they get to high school they're saying, oh, they get more freedom.
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Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this, but this one particular school where they're supposed supposedly using yonder pouches, they're not even using them anymore. And so I find that really interesting. And I, I mean are you seeing
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anything or they're just counting on the kids to put them away?
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Yes, yes. And I actually did. I did have a conversation with the administration of this high school last year, and we did. And I was surprised to hear that they, they said pretty much 90% of the kids aren't using the pouches anymore. So this was in the spring after almost a full year of yonder pouches, and they just weren't really being used anymore. But they said we still feel like it's helping just because they know that it's supposed to be put away. But this is just one of those things, like with developing brains, kids are not going to be able to, to resist, right? No. And, and I mean, even as adults, we know it's hard for us to resist, so how can we expect kids to be able to resist sneaking a look at their phones, you know, and so I feel like it's just that slippery slope. Right? So now, now they're in year two and supposedly using the yonder pouches again. But I've been in the school several times and have not. I've not seen one yonder pouch. I haven't seen. Yeah. And so have you seen phones?
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I mean, have you, have you had to reprimand kids and be like, hey, I need your phone. Like, do you confiscate it?
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Or what do you do? I have. Not as a sub, I don't think we're supposed to, although I'm not 100% clear. But as a sub, I don't feel like I have, I don't have relationships with these kids. And so I feel like asking them for their phones is honestly too, too, too risky. And it's such, it's such point of contention between, between students and teachers anyways. And I think for a sub to come in and say, yeah, I'm taking your phone. I don't. And so I've been more just observational about all this. And it's just confirmed to me once again that phones need to be, they need to be inaccessible for students for this to really work, you know, and even in the junior highs where, where it is bell to bell and they're not supposed to have them at lunch. I have seen. I was actually working in a special ed classroom at the beginning of this year at this particular middle school. And so I did go down to lunch with the students and I was overjoyed to see that they actually did not have phones out at lunch either. And kids were laughing and joking and running around together and just being silly middle school kids. And I was so happy to see that. But at the same time now I, I actually went to that same school last week and saw a completely different experience than just in a regular classroom. And it was, it was horrible. Like, I just thought, I wish that I could record what this classroom looks right like right now, because it was a disaster. And there were kids pulling out phones. That wasn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem was Chromebooks. And so it kind of made me realize what something we do fear is that once phones go away in schools and we do feel like eventually, we really hope that every state will eventually go bell to bell and realize that this is the way to go. But then there are the Chromebooks. And so this is how it was for these middle schoolers. I think they've just transitioned, transferred their, their addictive tendencies to, to, to the Chromebooks, you know. And so in this particular classroom the other day, yeah, I mean they were just. The kids did not have any respect for me as a sub, which is, you know, I understand a sub is not a teacher and subs already have it hard. Right, right. And so I, I try to take that into consideration as I'm observing what I've been observing, you know, and I actually ask the kids a lot. Like I said to them, do you guys. And I've said to this to kids a lot. Do you guys act like this for your teacher too? Or is it just because I'm a sub? And I get a variety of responses to that, but this, you know, these classes that I was subbing in last week, they were like, oh no, we act like this with our, with our teacher too. And I, and, and a student said, you know, I, I really actually feel so bad for our teacher because it was, it was awful. And they were, I mean there were kids playing first person shooter games openly. Like they not even trying to hide it from me. And this happened actually another day a few weeks ago. There was a, there was one boy playing a first person shooter game. And when I told him to stop, he just said no miss and then just kept playing. And I.
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B
And what was he supposed to be doing? Math or something?
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Like what was he supposed to be
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doing on his computer?
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Oh, I don't, I don't remember a few weeks ago, but this particular class the other day was science. And yeah. And they were just. And the other sad thing is that like even those who did do the, the assignment, the assignment was so brief. It was on canvas, you know, that learning platform. And, and it was eight questions and they had over an hour to do, I think. And I think it was multiple choice. And so that again, like now these kids have all this time on our hands. And there I had a handful of students in every class who would come up and they had finished their work. There was actually a paper assignment that the teacher had left as well for those who had finished, which was also pretty brief. And a few kids actually completed that and then wondered what to do afterwards. And my suggestion would always be, you know, do you have a book to read? And none of them did. And so then, you know, they said, well, our teacher just lets us go on games, you know, when we're done. And, and so this is just part of the whole. It really is such a problem.
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It really is.
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But what do you say?
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B
I mean, you're there, okay, boots on the ground, you're outside the classroom. As we probably have a lot of teachers listening that are nodding their heads right now. But like, what hope is there to get these screens out of the classroom? Do you think that there's hope on, you know, going backwards and saying, oh no, this tech ed tech thing is actually not working out so well? Like, do you think people are waking up to that?
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Yes, definitely, definitely. And I'm so. We're so hopeful at smartphone free childhood. Yes. Us, we have a whole, whole, I don't know what want to say division, but we have, we just have different groups that are tackling different issues. There's of course the phones, there's the social media, there's edtech, there's. And now of course AI. And so, but we have a big group of parents throughout the country who are really trying to tackle this edtech issue. And you know, there are lots of people in our space. Emily Cherkin, who's the screen time consultant, this is one of her big missions is getting edtech out of classrooms. And she always talks about how ed tech is not the same as tech ed. Of course we need education about digital technology, but that doesn't mean that kids have to be using that digital technology the entire day. Like the computer lab setup or even a computer cart setup is, is much better than putting an addictive product in these child's children's hands all the time. And I was just talking to a friend yesterday who, who was saying, you know, at any given moment when a kid is on a Chromebook at school, they have multiple entertaining options that they can go to when, when something gets hard, you know, and so, and, and, and so they're not used to having to stick through learning something difficult. And, and, and you know, I, I know that there are a lot of people who say that, that, that Chromebooks are locked down and that kids can't access these things. And I'm just here to say that it's just not true. I mean, there are products. When I was teaching at this school in Utah, there was a product that they told me about, you know, and I didn't use it, to be honest, because for me it just is so counterintuitive. This is not what we're in school for.
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B
And that's not what you went to school for? Like to learn how to teach?
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No, for sure.
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Oh, no wonder teachers were frustrated.
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Yes, exactly. And. Yeah. And burnt out and not getting the fulfilling part of being a teacher, which is connecting with your students all those things that take a lot of buildup. Right. It takes a lot of time to build these relationships. And, but the, but the rewards can be so great when you see your, your students doing great things and, or even just surviving, even just coming to school every day, you know, you can see all these great things, but when, when you can't connect with your students because of these experience blockers, it's just, it's, it's really sad, you know, and, and besides, these products that, you know, supposedly can help teachers and they, they do to an extent help teachers see what their students are doing and they can lock things, things down. They get on VPNs, which I, you know, I don't know if, if you're familiar with those, but yeah, I am.
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B
But maybe explain to our audience a little bit more just, okay, the parent probably doesn't know.
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A
Well, I don't know a lot about them. I just know it's a way that you can bypass any kind of, of system. And so, and I think you have to buy them. And so I, and I ask my student, my, as a sub, I ask students about this as well. Like, I, in this classroom last week, I said, how are you guys playing all these games? Like, I thought this was all supposed to be locked down. And I'm just very calm with them, of course.
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B
Patience.
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Yeah, I just, I just am trying to really kind of be a spy on the inside, you know, and, and so, and they just laugh, you know, and they're like, we just buy them. And I don't even. To be honest, Mandy, I don't know if that's what happens. I suppose maybe you have to buy, buy VPNs. I've never really looked into it, but I just know it's a very common thing that students have these VPNs that they can then bypass.
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B
Let's talk about the content then that our kids are seeing at school. And I forget the percentage. I should know this by heart. But how many kids, I think it's 2/3 or 1 third of kids are exposed to pornography at school.
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Talk about that a little bit.
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Like what do you think they're, I don't know, just talk in any experiences you have around that. Yeah.
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A
Oh yeah, for sure. And, and again, I was actually, I was at a meeting with some people in Utah that we're trying to, you know, we're trying to get ready for the legislative season next year and talking about policies that we want to hopefully get presented to be passed. But, and so this one woman was talking about how, you know, she'd heard about one of her friends kids who became addicted to porn at school. And, and so everything was locked down for him at home. But he was sitting, I, I think behind a kid who was watching porn and he, so he's watching porn every day with this kid and becomes addicted to porn. So that, that is just so not right. Obviously. If your listeners are interested to go to this Instagram account called G Rated School, these are two ladies that I was part of this group that I was with yesterday and they, they are just two moms in Utah who, one of them, they're, they have young, young and teenage children, but one of them has younger children and one of them came home just I think it's been about a year ago now and had some terrible content presented to them through Google Docs at school. And so then this mom with her neighbor, they started trying to investigate how easy it is to get to porn on school on school issued devices. So they started, they would take their kids Chromebooks and start trying to access, access porn. And, and they, what they found is you don't even have to say vulgar words like, like for example, she would type in bikini and within three clicks she was at a porn site. Obviously this is not what is supposed to be happening at school. And, and I had this experience a couple months ago at school that was really profound for me. So I was in a middle school classroom and these cute little middle schoolers and this one little girl came up to me first period of the day and she had her tooth in her hand and she said I don't know what to do, I just lost my tooth. And I was like, oh my goodness, how cute. She lost her tooth in class. So I was trying to, and of course it's not my classroom so I didn't know where anything was. So we ended up, just getting a tissue, I think, for her to wrap her tooth in and tuck away so that she could bring it home. And the weirdest thing, Mandy, is that the next period, the same exact thing happened. And I was trying to think, has this ever even happened to me before in a classroom? Like 10 years of a. As a teacher, I don't know that I ever had a student lose a tooth. And now two classes in a row, this little girl came up to me, second class, and I, I thought for a minute, am I being punked or something? I don't know if you remember that show where people would just. Yeah, just do these pranks. Because this second class, this little girl came up again, had lost a tooth. So I went through the same process with her. Oh, you know, talking to her about it and got her something to wrap her. Her tooth up in. And it was just so sweet. But then later in the day, I mean, I. And then I had some difficult kids in these classes. And one of the things actually that I remember in this classroom was that there were a number of boys in this one particular. It was different classes throughout the day, but this one particular class, there were these boys who said that their access to their Chromebooks had been blocked. This was like in an advisory class. So they're supposed to be catching up on work, and theirs had been blocked. And I said, well, why, why are they blocked? And they said, because they were using them inappropriately. So then that, that what happens now is as. As their teacher for the day, I'm trying to figure out what they can do to catch up in their work, but they can't because all their work is on. Their Chromebook has been blocked. So then what are they going to do, Mandy? They're going to misbehave, right? I mean, because they have nothing else to do. So while there were other kids trying to get work done on their Chromebooks, these boys were just, you know, being so rowdy and, and, and so it's just so backwards, the whole, the whole thing. But what I. Then I can't remember if what is one of these boys. But later in a class that day, after these two little girls had lost their teeth, there are just boys making sex noises, which I don't know if you know, but it's just a very common thing for kids. I remember hearing this, you know, starting to hear this several years ago at school. That school kids like moaning and just doing these different noises that, you know, I think they've heard, I guess probably on social media. And it's just become. Become a very common, funny thing for students to do, which is really funny. But what was so, like, such an epiphany for me as I thought about it, because I've been taking notes every day that I'm in. Every day I take notes in the classes that I'm in just to kind of. So I can remember my observations. And as I was going through it later on, I was like, how bizarre, right, that these two little girls who are still have baby teeth in their mouths that they're losing at school.
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B
And it.
- [31:05]
A
It makes me want to cry because then. And then these boys that are their
- [31:09]
B
age, they're their classmates.
- [31:10]
A
I mean, yes, they're their classmates. And not that it was. It would be just boys. I mean, I've heard girls do the same thing too, but that they're, you know, then making sex noises and I'm like, this is. This is not congruent. This does not add up. This is not what childhood should look like. Exactly. These kids don't even know anything about, you know, intimacy or. Or sexual relationships. And probably other than what they've been exposed to on social media or maybe pornography during the school day.
- [31:37]
B
Where you send your kids to school to be taught and to be in a safe environment.
- [31:42]
A
Yeah.
- [31:42]
B
And to learn about, you know, how to make good decisions and how to learn properly. Like all these things. And instead our kids are being distracted. They're playing first shooter games. They're seeing pornography. Oh, this is heavy, isn't it? It's. I always like to round it out because I don't want to leave on a negative note, you know, but this is what's happening. Like, we need to be real about what's happening. So something I love that you guys came out with smartphone free childhood us came out with in the past few months. I can't remember when, but was your PSA about changing the norm?
- [32:12]
A
Yes. Okay.
- [32:13]
B
If you have not seen this, we're gonna put it in the show notes. It's so amazing. I actually, I. We've put it in our Screenstrong. Like when we talk about smartphones and social media. That's how I now open up the section.
- [32:24]
A
I'm so glad. Yeah.
- [32:25]
B
So great.
- [32:25]
A
Cause it's.
- [32:26]
B
It's, you know, quote, humorous, but also like put. Puts the point there, you know. But let's talk about changing the norm.
- [32:34]
A
Like, what does that look like? Yes.
- [32:36]
B
Parents start changing the norm.
- [32:39]
A
Yeah, that's great. And I'll just back up a little bit to tell you that. Yeah, that PSA really Hit it went viral for you know, which was so great. It was actually gifted to us because again we're just, we're just volunteers at this point. But there was a director from Tessa Films. Oh and his name is. Is escaping me at the moment. But they were so kind to, to do this PSA and they did it in, in a day at his house. And he, yes, he only did it because he wanted to get this message out there because he has kids of his own. And then he chose our organization to be the platform for it. And I'm so glad because it really does show just the absurdity of what we are expecting from our kids when we hand them these devices that have access to everything. Right. And so, but yeah, there is so much hope because I think for one thing people are, are cluing in that this things are not going well. Right. It is not normal for so many of our kids to be so anxious and depressed and you know, struggle so much. And, and so one thing, yes, this, this became our mantra is change the norm. Which is my just my favorite thing because that's exactly what like Dr. Height talked about. This has to be a collective action. We have to do this together so that our kids can see that at least there's some other kids out there doing the same things and trying to live low screen lifestyles. You know what we're trying to do. What we at smartphone for childhood us and we have debated about this for many months. But like what age? Because we have different organizations like wait until 8, you know, where they're trying to wait until at least 13 to. And then Dr. Height talks about I think at least 14, you know, for a smartphone.
- [34:24]
B
Strong says 18.
- [34:25]
A
Okay, good. I'm so glad I actually didn't know that. But that's what we're. A lot of us on our, on our leadership team feel the same way. Like why do we have to give kids a phone before they graduate from high school? Because those are the precious as you. You all talk about screenstrong. Those precious months for kids to be able to develop and grow and, and spend this time with their family and make friends and do all these things and just putting these experience blockers in their hands. It's just, it just seems silly. You know and it, and it's so funny that people just accept it as the norm. Like, well this is just the way it is. This is, you know, the tubes out of the toothpaste. You know, you hear that all the time. And I love what, what Jonathan Haidt did say about that One time where he said, you know, I don't know about you guys. Well, because people say too, like, the trains left the station, right? And he's like, I don't know about you all, but if my kids were on a runaway train to nowhere or to somewhere bad, you better believe that I'm going to go chase after them. You know, let's try to save them. Let's just not be like, throw up our hands and be like, oh, well. And I. But I just think it has become so ingrained in our culture. And you know, to be honest, there's a lot of parents who struggle themselves with, with these distractions. And, and so it makes it, I think, even harder to think, okay, well, let's, you know, let's take them away from the kids. And so, yeah, that's what we're trying to do too. We're trying to change that norm. We're trying to say, you know, we don't have a specific age, but, but we do. A lot of us do believe that 18 should be the way to go, you know. Yeah.
- [35:57]
B
And I like to remind, I like to remind parents who kind of go, well, how, you know, how do we do that? I mean, I didn't get a smartphone till I was in my 30s. There is really no learning curve when it comes to a smartphone. So there's no training that needs to be done. The second or the minute your kid gets one, whether they're 18, 16 or 25, they're going to figure it out real quick, you know. And so the key is letting them have those experiences, build a healthy brain so that they can make better decisions. Just like you were saying at the very beginning of this with alcohol and gambling and all the things that we, like, put these age restrictions on, it's for a purpose. Because a lot of most of us, I would say, grew up and then didn't choose to gamble. Right. Because our brains were developed. But as a kid, if we were offered that, it might have been fun for our brain. And that's exactly what's happening with the phones.
- [36:46]
A
Yes. And, and the, the problem with all of these addictive devices is that they're frictionless. Right. They take no effort and it's that, that easy reward, low effort. Right. And, and this is what kids are getting used to and it's making it so it's really hard to get kids to do what we, what I've heard called recently non preferred activities. Right. And, and that's such a big part of developing and growing is learning how to do things you don't want to do. And, and I just feel like when we're putting these phones and other devices in kids hands, it very quickly comes to them not wanting to do things that they don't want to do and then it just becomes a dumpster fire, you know, as you, as if you're trying to get a teenager to, who is, who is on their phone or a device all the time, trying to get them to do something they don't want to do, it just gets paid progressively more difficult. You know, that's where that conflict comes in.
- [37:43]
B
Now you're in conflict constantly with your teenager.
- [37:45]
A
Yes.
- [37:46]
B
Really is easier to. Not to delay or to even take it away, you know, if you have to, if it's an issue in your home. Like, I love how Melanie talks a lot about the coach analogy. You know, a good coach knows if their team isn't winning and changes the play. And so sometimes we have to sit back and go take a deep breath and say, oh my gosh, I think we need to change the play and go running after that train, you know,
- [38:09]
A
us pull all the analogies in together. Oh my God, I love that. And I actually did that. I don't know if I've told you about that, but when my twins who are my youngest were 17, I took their iPhones finally being part of this and, and learning more and more and. But yet they've got, they'd gotten their iPhones at 12 and I the time thought I, I don't know how I could take it away from them. And, and you know, they really struggled emotionally with lot dysregulation, which of course now I know. And I knew even then a lot of it was because of the screens, you know, so finally at 17, which I know people thought I was nuts, I made a big plan and even my husband was like, I mean this is going to be terrible, you know, but we planned for it. I had done a screen reset with my family a couple of years earlier with Dr. Dunkley's 30D set your child's brain.
- [38:58]
B
Yep.
- [38:59]
A
Yes. With her reset your child's brain, which I heard about her book from you guys and that was so life changing for me. But anyway, so yes, I knew there was going to be a lot of preparation. I actually think I even have a blog post about it. And, and, and so for about a year and a half they had, I, I switched them over to pinwheel phones, which is like gab phones, similar to that concept, you know, and though they still, so they're 19 now they're still living at home. They would still say that it didn't help them. I will tell you that they were able to develop some skills and really work on their own emotional regulation and maturity, being away from those. Those blockers for. For that 18 months. And then they graduated from high school, and now, you know, now they're. They're working and. And so they did get their own phones. I told them I would never get them one. And. And I can see that slippery slope, you know. Yeah. And oh, praise to you, because, you
- [39:54]
B
know, I don't know if, you know, that's my story too. We took it back. Yes. So people always are like, how did you do that that late? I mean, our son was 16 and he had had it for two years. We waited till 14 to give it 10.
- [40:07]
A
So.
- [40:08]
B
But just in those two years, I was like, what is happening? And then found Screenstrong and all that. But, you know, now he's going on 22, of course, he's a smartphone and all of that, and can look back a little bit now, I think, and kind of admit that it was a good thing. Right. But it's hard even now with your twin probably, for them to quite see it yet, but they will. They'll recognize that that year and a half was like, yeah, you. You kind of halted that train, you know what I mean? And gave them an opportunity to learn some things.
- [40:32]
A
Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. And I actually have. I don't know if I've even talked to you about this either, Mandy, but I have my own little podcast that I started just this year, and I've been talking mostly to Gen Z kids and trying to, you know, find out their stories of. Of success and failure with. With all the screens around. And I. So I talked recently to a. This teenager in Utah and her mom, and her mom actually is the head of an organization called Utah Parents United. And so she knew all the things. Mandy. She had a bunch of. She has a bunch of kids. But she could see that her daughter was becoming more and more depressed. She had all the screen time lockdowns. What she didn't realize that was she had given her one app, and it was Pinterest, and she became addicted to Pinterest. And I didn't realize that Pinterest has all the same features now. They have the shorts, they have all the things to steal your attention away. And her daughter was on the verge of suicide and almost took her life and then finally told her mom, like, I'm addicted to Pinterest. And so if you want to listen to that story, it's very interesting. But there are thousands, literally, of stories, probably even more than that, of kids, you know, today who are struggling with similar things. And so we need to be able to have the courage to do the hard thing. And it, I, and obviously me and you, we both know it is super hard and it's not fun to do and it's yucky to look, to think about, you know, oh, my gosh, how am I going to do this? But taking it a day at a time. You can do it. Yep, I agree.
- [42:03]
B
Okay, so as we kind of finish up today, a couple things I want to ask you.
- [42:07]
A
What are the latest?
- [42:10]
B
If you could give me your top books that you love. Oh, yeah, I know that's hard. I mean, I'm looking at all the books on my shelf right now and I'm like, I don't even know what
- [42:17]
A
I would say, so I'm not going
- [42:18]
B
to answer the question. I'll let you answer it.
- [42:20]
A
Oh, gosh. Oh, that's so hard. I mean, I would love to tell you just this year, but then, but, but, but I have to say, reset your child's brain for sure. That was so changing. Life changing for me. Screen school, that's another great one. Anxious generation, of course. I gotta throw that. I mean, they're really pivotal for me too, but. Okay, so there's a book that just came out called the Digital Delusion, and it is with a neuroscientist called, and his name is Jared Cooney Horvath. Do you know him?
- [42:45]
B
Yes. Oh, yes. He is awesome.
- [42:47]
A
Yeah, he is. He's awesome and he's so fun to listen to. He has a ton of podcasts out and other things if, if people are interested. But he, he. I didn't know he was actually a teacher. And he decided to go back to school to become a neuroscientist because he wanted to study the science of learning. And from what I've understood from a. A podcast recently, he was saying that he was planning to go back to teaching, but he just got really wrapped up in what he was doing in learning about the science of learning. So he just came out with this amazing book called the Digital Delusion. And I feel like every administrator, teacher, parent needs to read this book. I, I mean, I know a lot of what his content. I mean, I know some of the content just from hearing what. But as I've been skimming through it the last few days because I haven't had time to really dig in Yet I'm like, this is going to be so impactful. And basically, in a nutshell, Mandy, what he says is that people are not meant to learn on screens. They are not. They're never, they never have, and they never will be able to learn digitally as well as they can just with pen, paper, and other human beings and textbooks. Right? And so, oh, my gosh, I can't even. I know we're probably, you know, at our time limit, so I won't even go into it, but all I can say is if there's one book you could get yourself, get that one. Because it is, it's very important for us to understand. And I think that Big Tech has been feeding us this narrative for years that learning on a screen is going to improve our kids, you know, cognitive abilities. And we all see it's doing the exact opposite. And our kids are not learning. Our, Our kids are not able to think critically. They're not able to problem solve. Just briefly, I'll tell you, I was thinking of this classroom experience I had. Well, first of all, I have students constantly, like, they are asking me what time it is, which there are, there are clocks in the classroom. And, yeah, they don't know how to read. But even, even I've seen digital clocks sometimes I think kids have become so dependent on just, I don't know, they just are not thinking for themselves. So this one assignment that, that these kids had on their Chromebooks recently, a lot of kids were clicking on the wrong thing. They were clicking on the date instead of the assignment, even though I had explained it a lot of times. But then kids would come up to me and be like, this doesn't work. It's. It's bringing me to this blocked page. And I would just show them, oh, yeah, you were just clicking on the wrong thing. They literally just had to click on the next thing down. But they, they are not, they're not thinking. They're. They're not used to having to process or think or, or problem solve. And so this, and this is what Dr. Kuni Horbrath talks about, that, that this is not the way for us to be learning. And it's obvious. I mean, it's obvious in declining, in declining test scores, in declining mental and physical health. And so, you know, we're, we're working hard, Mandy, to, To. To get this ed Tech out of the classroom as well so that our kids can start learning again.
- [45:59]
B
Yes. Well, thank you for the work that you're doing over there and thank you for joining us over here. As well. And we're all in this together and there's never too many people jumping on our train.
- [46:09]
A
Right.
- [46:09]
B
We keep bringing that train, but get on our train because we are really trying to change the norm all the way around. And so thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a really awesome conversation.
- [46:20]
A
Thank you so much, Mandy. It's been a pleasure. And it was a great, great to talk to you as well.
- [46:25]
B
Awesome. Well, let's just end today by just thanking you all for this great conversation with Kathleen and all the work that's going on at Smartphone Free Childhood Us. We'll put some things in the show notes to kind of, you know, guide you to some of the books you talked about and maybe your Gen Z podcast, I'd love that link too to put in there because I love talking to Gen Z as well. I just, that's a passion of mine. So thanks everybody for listening today. You can find out more about us@screenstrong.org in the movement we are doing over here with just educating people on the brain science of what's happening. Because when we have education, we can have understanding behind all these policies and these new rules that are going on in schools. And if our kids don't know why we're doing this or our teachers don't know or our parents don't know, that's where you get the pushback. And so it's so important and Screenstrong has your back when it comes to teaching the students this in the classroom. We have a full student curriculum for middle school. We're working on a high school version of it and we recently came out with our elementary version of it. So elementary, middle school, we've got you covered for the classroom to start bringing this education to your school. So find out more on our website screenstrong.org if you want to connect with like minded people, you can do so on Screenstrong Connect, which you can join quickly on our website. This is an online forum that's off of social media that you can come in and join us and interact with our ambassadors, ask your questions, get that support that you need. Of course, we hope you're subscribed to this podcast and that you'll share it with a friend as well. But if you are interested in becoming a speaking ambassador or we also have track called a community leader that more like, you know, hosts book clubs with our books and other books that we mentioned today, we've got a slew of books you could choose from that we recommend. So maybe you want to be a community leader and you want to host some screen free activities for your school or your class, your child's class, and you want to kind of do that. Or you're really passionate about public speaking and you want to speak and you want to go in front of crowds and give this message. You can look into our ambassador program on our website as well. So remember, we've got your back and we are here to help you remove the screen conflicts from your home. So until next time, stand up for your kids, stand out from the crowd and stay strong.
- [48:37]
A
Sam.