The Best Phone for Kids: The Answer Every Parent Is Searching For (#250)

Summary

Podcast Summary – ScreenStrong Families

Episode #250: "The Best Phone for Kids: The Answer Every Parent Is Searching For"

Host: Melanie Hempe, BSN
Guest: Haley (ScreenStrong parent)
Date: November 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Melanie Hempe and guest Haley tackle one of the biggest dilemmas facing modern parents: "What is the best phone for your child?" They challenge prevailing assumptions about children's use of smartphones, discuss the benefits of starting with a basic flip phone, and share practical strategies for families seeking a healthier, less stressful relationship with technology. The conversation blends stories, scientific insights, audience questions, and actionable solutions—all delivered with empathy, encouragement, and a touch of humor.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reframing the Question (00:10 – 03:41)

• Melanie reframes the debate: The right question isn't "What’s the best age for a smartphone?” but “What’s the best phone for your child?”
• Haley’s family context: Her two sons (13 and 15) don’t have phones. Haley herself uses a flip phone, which led to profound benefits in her own life and her parenting.

2. The Grand Smartphone Experiment & Cultural Context (04:08 – 08:56)

• Historical analogy: Melanie likens the rise of smartphones for kids to the era when filtered cigarettes were thought to be 'safer'—both, she argues, are flawed experiments.
• Society's pendulum swing: The culture went from no phones to everyone having smartphones—now, parents are grappling with the fallout ("quicksand").
• Key moment: “It’s like we’re looking for a safe cigarette." — Melanie (06:48)

3. Haley’s Journey Back to a Flip Phone (08:56 – 13:51)

• Personal transformation: Distracted by her own smartphone, Haley switched to a flip phone, quickly noticing:
  • Simpler, more intentional life
  • More genuine connection with her children
  • Freedom from compulsive checking and the illusion of urgency
• Modeling for her kids: “Parenting is mostly about modeling.” — Haley (09:45)
• Memorable quote: “A flip phone is a phone. A smartphone is an entertainment center.” — Haley (12:02)

4. The Myth of Urgency and Always-On Culture (13:51 – 18:49)

• False urgency: Smartphones create artificial emergencies and constant reactivity.
• Life before smartphones: Discussion on prior strategies for managing communication (set times to check email, etc.)
• Melanie’s recommendation: Consider using a flip phone part-time to experience its benefits.

5. Social Implications & Grit Through Being “Different” (18:49 – 26:12)

• Benefits of being different: Not having a smartphone can:
  • Foster independence, leadership, and grit
  • Force kids to develop alternative social and problem-solving skills
• Developmental phases: It's harder to be different in middle school; easier in high school when individuality is more valued.
• Angela Duckworth's “Grit” cited: Doing hard things (like not having what everyone else has) is character-building.
• Key advice: “When [kids] do get a phone, they should always start with a flip phone. With a basic phone, always. We should never start with a smartphone.” — Melanie (25:29)

6. Flip Phones: Practical Recommendations (26:50 – 35:06)

• Flip phones as the default: Always start simple—a basic flip phone with no data.
• Consumer Cellular recommended: Cheap, durable, and can be purchased without data.
• Flip phone as shared home device: Keep it in a central place (like the kitchen) and allow siblings to share it for logistics.
• Parents’ objections addressed: If a child wants a smartphone because of group texts, consider computer-based messaging apps.

7. Group Chats and Alternatives (33:20 – 36:05)

• Dangers of group texting: Kids (and adults) can be overwhelmed; group chats can “ding” a student’s phone over 100 times daily.
• Alternative: Use GroupMe or similar services on the home computer—check once a day, like email.

8. Overcoming Social Pressures & Family Strategy (36:11 – 42:41)

• Flip phone “coolness” and resilience: Teasing about flip phones is usually minimal and not about core character traits.
• Opportunity for family conversations: Make the smartphone decision a long-term, evolving dialogue, not a one-off battle.
• Don't give a phone as a “gift”: Melanie warns, “Please don’t ever give a phone as a gift. That is one of the biggest mistakes parents make around this.” (42:59)
• Skip smartwatches too: All the same concerns apply.

9. Modeling & Making Changes as Parents (44:21 – 50:21)

• Modeling is critical: “Switching to a flip phone, as a grown-up, influences your entire household and will influence the change if you want to get a child off of a smartphone.” — Haley (44:41)
• Be honest with your kids: Narrate your own phone use—there are no “secret lives.”
• Clear the shame: It’s never too late to rethink or revoke a previous decision.

10. Permission to Rewind: It’s Never Too Late (51:43 – 53:16)

• Admit mistakes, change course: Parents can always reverse a decision to give a smartphone—modeling flexibility and humility.
• Children benefit from returns to basics: “So many people say, ‘My child came back to life. I got my child back.’ It happens over and over.” — Haley (52:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On technology as a tool vs. a trap:

  • “A flip phone is a phone. A smartphone is an entertainment center.” — Haley (12:02)
  • “It’s like we’re looking for a safe cigarette.” — Melanie (06:48)

• On urgency and mental overload:

  • “This false sense of urgency ... it must be very primitive in some way, because for some reason it creates an urgency that is totally imagined.” — Haley (14:55)

• On differences and grit:

  • “One of the biggest benefits I saw was they were learning how to be different.” — Melanie (19:31)

• On teaching and modeling:

  • “Parenting is mostly about modeling.” — Haley (09:45)
  • “Switching to a flip phone ... will influence your entire household.” — Haley (44:41)

• On non-negotiables:

  • “You should always start with [a flip phone]. ... Give it as late as possible ... keep it in the kitchen and treat it like a tool, like a wrench in the garage or the toaster on the counter.” — Melanie (42:41)
  • “Please don’t ever give a phone as a gift.” — Melanie (42:59)

• Humor:

  • “When you drop a flip phone, the screen does not crack. I’ve probably dropped this phone four times. The back comes off, the battery flies out, and I put it back together.” — Haley (53:56)

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Actionable Tips & Segment Timestamps

00:10 – 03:41 | Introducing the Real Parenting Dilemma

08:56 – 13:51 | Flip Phone Detox: Haley’s Story & Benefits

18:49 – 26:12 | Social Pressures, Leadership, and Building Grit

26:50 – 35:06 | Phone Recommendations & Setting Guardrails

33:20 – 36:05 | Group Chat Overload and Safer Alternatives

36:11 – 42:41 | Family Communication, Not Giving in to Peer Pressure

44:21 – 50:21 | Parent Modeling and Changing Course

51:43 – 53:16 | Permission to Rewind: Making Midcourse Corrections with Confidence

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Final Takeaways

• Start with Less: The best phone for kids is the simplest phone possible—a basic, inexpensive flip phone with no data plan.
• Take it Slow: Delay phone ownership as long as possible, keep the device communal, and only let kids “graduate” as they show real-world maturity.
• Model Change: Parents who model limited and intentional use of technology set the standard for their children.
• It’s Never Too Late: You can “rewind” previous decisions and shift to healthier tech boundaries in your home—even if it’s uncomfortable at first.

Call-to-Action:
If you’re struggling, you’re not alone. There’s power and relief in simplifying. “You are the coach. When you’re having a losing streak, you change the game plan.” — Melanie (50:21)

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Resources Mentioned

• ScreenStrong.org and BE ScreenStrong Substack for additional guidance and community.
• Consumer Cellular for simple, low-cost flip phones.
• “Grit” by Angela Duckworth, cited for the value of “doing hard things.”

Episode ends with encouragement:
Remember: Stand up for your kids. Stand out from the crowd. Get them a flip phone and stay strong.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Screenstrong Families Podcast, bringing you the best solutions for parents who are serious about eliminating screen conflicts in their homes. This is Melanie Hempe, and I'm so glad you're joining us today. If you're one of our regular listeners, welcome back. And if you're a new friend, we're so glad you found us. You are no longer alone on this journey of navigating screens in your home, and you have found your people over here at Screen Strong. So today we are going to solve a big dilemma for everyone listening. So if you have friends out there that need to hear this, be sure and share this podcast with them because this is probably one of the biggest parenting issues and dilemmas and problems and conflicts right now happening in our world, and it's been happening for a long time. And the question is, what is the best phone for your child? So a lot of times people ask me, you know, what is the best age for me to get my kid a smartphone? And I'm like, well, really, the question is, what is the best phone for your child? And then we'll talk about the age. And so today I have a wonderful guest, a mom. Her name is Haley, and she's on the show with me to help us unpack this issue. We were talking recently and I just said, oh, my goodness, Haley, you need to get on the podcast with me and talk about this with our listeners. So why don't you give us a little bit of our. A little bit of your background, if you will, just to give a little idea about your kids and stuff.

[A]

Thanks, Melanie. And I am so happy to be talking with you about this because I really need some help. I. I was a very late adopter to cell phones, and when I had kids, I tried a smartphone and realized that I was horribly distracted by it and changed back to a flip phone. My kids are and 13. They don't have phones. I've had the conversation, an ongoing conversation with them pretty much their whole lives about technology. But now we're at a point where kids around them, of course, have phones and they are asking. My older son missed out on a group chat situation where friends were getting together, and I felt really bad because I want him to have a social life. He's 15, but. And my kids are great kids. They're thriving. I am a proud flip phone owner myself still, and I know how it has helped my life. So I don't have any regrets about them not having a phone. But I'm at the point where I'm not sure what to do because my kids, they're very, they're very knowledgeable about phones and addiction and everything. And my 15 year old doesn't even want a phone that has apps or social media. He's not even interested in any of that. He, we just, we both agree just it'll be easier for social plans. So unfortunately, that's how kids are making plans. And so, you know, he, I talked to him about a flip phone and he was like, as long as it looks like a smartphone, I'm fine with that. And, and so, you know, I know you, we had talked about gab and you said that that was, they were, they were doing what everyone else is. And so I would love your opinion. Yeah.

[B]

Oh yeah. Oh, this is so great. I just love the fact that you still have a flip phone. Like my. I'm like so excited about that because I, you know, I talked to somebody the other day in a big, huge corporate office and he was saying after our presentation and whatnot, we did the, the workshop and everything. He said, melanie, I, I went home and I told my wife, I am getting a flip phone.

[A]

Fantastic.

[B]

Oh, he, I mean, I don't say necessarily to do that in our presentations, but that's what he got from it. So I want to talk to you about that in a minute. But first, first, let's just talk about, just for a minute, let's just kind of look at what's happened in our culture. So we, you know, I call it the grand smartphone experiment, right? And I think what's happened is the pendulum just swung so far because in culture, when things are new, you know, everyone jumps on the bandwagon and we think it's great. We think it's all great. I mean, think about smoking. That was all great. It was social and it was all exciting, whatever. And the pendulum goes way are to one side. And I think that's obviously what's happened with the smartphone problems with kids and everything. And so it only has one way to go, right? It has to, it has to start swinging back to center. And you know, everywhere I go, people, like I said, they ask what is the best age, what kind of phone? And, and I think it's just really, you know, we can, we can learn a lot from history. So let's look at history just for a second. So let's, let's think about the flip phone years ago, right? Because that was, I mean, we used to have wall phones, right? We all just had regular home phones.

[A]

Right? That's right.

[B]

Right. And then this flip phone thing started happening in the flip phone years, I call it in. Our life was just really changed because now you could be out doing errands, I could be at the grocery store and a friend could call me, and I could meet out for lunch, for example. Or, you know, your. Your world just became more convenient, right? Because we had this portable phone in our pocket, and it. And it really worked really well. Then what happened is we thought we would just get smarter and we, you know, develop the smartphone. So then everybody got the smartphone, and then our life really got crazy because then we were literally just working from our phone. And when we kind of did this with blackberries. Do you remember blackberries?

[A]

I didn't have one, but I do remember them.

[B]

You remember? Yeah. So it was with all that, but then the we. We within a culture, we just had this brilliant idea, right? We're gonna give these to our kids now. And so we thought that they were going to use their phone for all the convenient things that we were using the phone for. We thought they were going to use it like an adult, but guess what? They didn't, right? And then we, even as your. Your figured, you figured out, and you kind of went back to the flip phone to stick with the flip phone because you realize you probably had a lot more control over your time and less.

[A]

Oh, my. Huge, huge, huge changes. Which we'll talk about.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now we're in this part of our. Our culture journey here, where everyone's trying to find a safe smartphone, right, for their kids. And, you know, the only thing that comes to my mind is, like, a safe cigarette, okay? Like, you know, there was a point when, of course, everyone wanted to put filters on cigarettes to make them safer, I guess, worse. That doesn't work. But this is what we're trying to do. So now parents are in this dilemma, and we're trying to figure out how do we take this wonderful part of technology, just like you said that your kids want to use it for the tool that it's meant to be. And so how do we take this, the wonderful things, but not expose them to all the negative things and all the risk? And it's just really hard. It's very. We're now at a place where, you know, after this kind of sneaky shift happened, when it just sorts, you know, it just kind of morphed, right? I don't think we ever would have dreamed back a few decades ago that we ever would have given our kids something like this. But it's. But it Just happens slowly over time. And as culture adopts things and then your friends adopt it and then your kids. Friends adopt it and then all your kids are, you know, all the kids in their class are have, you know, it's kind of like quicksand, right? We just kind of fall in and we don't know what we've done until we start seeing the fallout from it. So I'm going to talk to you about what I think would be, you know, what. What we recommend from Screenstrong and, and just why we recommend that kids go back to flip phones or that they even never get smartphones. And we're going to talk about some of the best practices around that. But let's touch first, just quickly on your decision that you made. I think this is really fascinating. So let's talk about this for a second. Did you have a smartphone and then you went back to the flip phone or did you just have a flip phone all the way and decided not to get the smartphone?

[A]

I went to a smartphone, I got a smartphone. And I was sitting with my. At that time, they were two little adorable pipsqueaks. Probably three and four and. Or maybe two and four. And I thought to myself, I wonder what's going on on my phone right now? And I realized how what a waste of time and energy and connection and life that was. And I thought, here are these two amazing human beings in front of me and all I want to do is savor this time. I'm getting a flip phone. And I actually was scared. I was like, I'm going to be out of society. I won't know what's happening in the world. What am I going to. Then I went, wait a second, I have a computer.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And I. And I thought, you know, I can always go back, right? And the next day I got a flip phone. I changed it out and it took about two seconds to detox. Like it was. Absolutely didn't regret it. For one second. Life got simple. I was it just that that need to busy myself in transitions disappeared. And I realized that was such a thing for me was, you know, if I was waiting for something, I'd go, well, I got my phone. Might as well do something, text someone, look at. And it was such a. It was such a strange shift because it was almost training my nervous system to need to do something all the time. And then when I wasn't doing that, it was almost like the time the boring times seemed more unbearable. It was almost like it created this cycle of, well, now I need something to Bring me back to that state. And it was really destructive to my nervous system. And when I went back to a flip phone, that was just gone, it was just immediately gone. And I also didn't want to model for my kids and that having a phone out all the time is normal. And I'm really big into modeling. I think parenting is mostly about modeling. And so that was another big piece of that decision was, wait a second, they're going to get used to this thing being out. I read recently an article or a study that the center of Humane Technology did that just a phone out on a table and distanced humans, like sitting at a table, just disconnected. And, and that's what, that's what is happening. And so, so I kind of saw it on a big society level of like, wait a second, what's going on? And I saw if I could be distracted like that. What about my kids? Oh my God, I'm a grown up. So that, like when I went back to a flip phone, it also, it's like a flip phone is a phone and a smartphone is an entertainment center.

[B]

Yes, yes, that's. That's a wonderful way to phrase it.

[A]

So that was a big, big change for me too, is just being so much more in the relationship with my children and playing, you know, all the good stuff, all the good stuff. And life just got simpler. And I don't, I, I just do everything on my computer and if I need to text somebody, you know, on a flip phone, texting takes some time. So it's very intentional, which I love because I was like, yeah, it's kind of time consuming, but so I don't text that much, which is great. Like, we need that, we need those, those kind of guardrails, you know, to help us manage all of this.

[B]

Well, I, I am like, so amazed. And you are like a hero because I'm sure everybody's listening, probably has their jaw on the ground right now, and they're like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What did she. And we're all jealous. I mean, right? Because we all know, especially when our kids are little and we're getting so caught up in everything. And just as you were talking, I'm just thinking, we really don't need to carry the smartphone with us everywhere we go. It is a little computer. So why don't we take a flip phone with us and leave our computer, you know, at home?

[A]

Right, right, right, yes.

[B]

So you still have kind of the best of both, because your phone is still there. You can still, if Somebody desperately has to get in touch with you. Right, right. You still have that. And if you need something, you can call somebody. But it is just such a wonderful way for technology not to take over your whole day.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. And those moments of connection and processing, I mean, my. It was in those times where, let's say I was in line at a store or waiting for an appointment, where would I was, you know, when I had the smartphone, I would take it out, where I would. I had some time to come down from all the busyness of life and just process and. And I noticed that I was able to come up with solutions more and come up with. It was like I was freeing myself of a constant buzz of noise that was disruptive.

[B]

Right. And everything seems so urgent to us now. Right. Even when the dentist is calling to confirm the appointment. That's just so urgent.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And in the old days, even not that many years ago, you know, we. We just got something on our computer. You know, we got an email that said, hey, we got a dentist appointment coming up and that's fine. Right. It didn't need to be all move to move everything into the urgent category.

[A]

That is a hundred percent, like, accurate and important that you said that. Because the urgency, this false sense of urgency, I, I dare anyone to hear a text on their phone and not grab their phone. Like, there is something very. It must be very primitive in some way, like, because for some reason it creates an urgency that is totally imagined.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And, you know, you think about. Remember the cartoon, the Jetsons?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, their future image was all convenience and relaxation and connection. Like, everything kind of worked out nicely. Like, the things that we really needed technology for were like, you know, a chair to sit in that comes to you at the door. Like, it was all lovely. But this is creating a sense of urgency that, that, I mean, think about, like our nervous systems, like, all day long, just reacting. And I think it creates also this mentality of reaction instead of, you know, proaction. Is that being proactive? Yeah, proactive. Right, right. That, you know, it creates a mentality of, I am. Oh, I can't catch up. I can't catch up because I am constantly bombarded with information and, and then so stressful.

[B]

And then you sort it with things that you shouldn't even be caring about.

[A]

Right, right. Yes, right.

[B]

Grabbing every.

[A]

Everything's a priority.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you remember in the days when, you know, we were. We were feeling a little bit like this with email, and everybody was overwhelmed with their emails. So the big Tip was just look at your email an hour in the morning and an hour like after lunch. And don't stay on your computer staring at your email.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

That seemed to work. It was like, oh, I can answer all this stuff for this hour, but I'm not going to check my email every, you know, 20 minutes. 20 minutes, 20 minutes. And that. Then we got smartphones, and now we go to sleep with our emails and we dream about our emails and we have all the dings and stuff happening all night long. So I think this, I'm so glad I have you on here talking about this, because I think that there's so many parents and moms out there that are really busy, especially that are needing to think about this. And then the. While you were talking, I'm thinking, well, I wonder if people could start with, you know, because flip phones are pretty cheap. And what if we just did something in our days like, well, on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I'm just going to carry a flip phone, right? I'm gonna, I'm gonna transfer my number over or I think you can just forward your number over, actually in back and forth between two devices, there's a way to just forward your number. And I don't know, I'm just kind of thinking as we're talking, yeah, yeah. But, you know, that could be really cool. And there's all sorts of ways to do that. But I love the idea that you figured it out for yourself. And I'm so impressed. And I just, like I said, you're just like the hero. We're gonna go here on it for Screenstrong because you have figured out this wonderful secret. But now we're gonna talk about what do you do with your kids? Because I'm, I'm like, okay, well, your kids need this same feeling. So you have a flip phone and most of us have smartphones as adult parents, so it's even harder for us. But for you, you have a flip phone. So your kids, right, the natural thing for them is to have a flip phone when it's time for them to get a phone. And so what I recommend. And so let's just jump right into it for the best phone for kids, right? It's not that hard to figure out. And I'm going to go through some steps and just some tips to help everybody think this through. So I know that you were saying, just you, you said that your son, you know, they're not really, they don't really care as much about social media and all that, and that's fabulous.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

So no kid should care about social media. So I'm so happy that yours don't. And, and if you're listening and you have kids that do care about social media, it. This still applies to you as well because we have to structure what, what our kids do. And until they're old enough, which, you know, until they're adults, really. Right. We have to help structure what's good for them. And so social media obviously is not good for kids. It's not even good for us. And it's not all bad. And you know, the whole arguments around all that. But I think we can all agree that kids really don't need to be on social media. It screenstrong. We don't agree that kids need to be on social media at all. All the way through adolescence, they don't need it. And then when they hit 18 or go to college and they can decide what they want at that point, but more, more likely than not, they're still not going to like it because they didn't grow up with it and they grew up doing other things. Like, your kids are getting the benefit of that right now. So let's just try. Let's just try to unpack this a minute. First of all, I want to just talk about a couple things that I think will kind of help with your decision about what kind of phone to get. I think that there is a. I'm going to say it right up front. I think there's a really big benefit and not being like everybody else when you're a teenager. And I know it's kind of hard for us as parents, you know, to think this through because we think, well, we don't want our kids to be left out. But from my view, where I have been raising four children, one was completely exposed to screens in all the wrong ways. The other three, we said, no, we're not going to do it. We're just going to see what happens. And I'm just going to share with you that not being like everybody else and not having a smartphone, There were so many wonderful reasons about not having a smartphone. We didn't have to argue about all the time spent on it, the social media stuff. I didn't have to go through all the gymnastics that parents have to do when they're trying to train their kids how to use a smartphone and all that. So there's all those benefits. But one of the biggest benefits I saw was they were learning how to be different. And I know maybe that sounds a little cruel. Right. Because you may be thinking, well, but they need to have friends, and they need to, you know, be like their friends. And that's what you do when you have friends. You do things together and all that. But what I saw and what I would never go back and change was that that what Angela Duckworth, in her book Grit, I don't know if you're familiar with that book. Love that book. And she talks about doing hard things in even having stretch hobbies and doing things that you're not good at just so you can learn how to power through. And this was one of these incredible times when my kids got to, you know, figure out how to be a little different. And what we learned is that when they were in middle school, it was definitely harder. Okay? Because middle school, everyone wants to be the same. And, you know, just like when your son said, hey, I don't mind having a flip phone as long as it looks like a smartphone, because they want to all be the same. And I'm not really against that. I'm not really against, you know, having a phone that maybe looks like a smartphone. But I would encourage you to just pause and think about this a second and think about being different even in. In middle school. And I. I know it's not easy. It's a little bit of a narrow path for kids, but what I want to tell you is that looking ahead, in high school, high school, it gets really so much easier. And a lot of parents don't understand this, but in high school, kids are all trying to be different, right? So in middle school, we're trying to be like everybody. But then in high school, like, my kids say, mom, nobody cares, like, if you have what your phone looks like or if it looks like a smartphone or if it is a flip phone. Like, nobody cares. But he. But my boys say, but the parents really care. So the parents are caring a little bit more. Whereas. And I'm going to hand it to you, it's a little bit of a stretch in middle school, but that stretch. And like Angela Duckworth says, that doing that hard thing really is so good for our kids. And when I think about hard things right now, in our culture, our kids really don't do hard things, right? What are some things they do that are really hard? I mean, like, their lives are a little bit soft, and we cater to all their needs in all these ways. So. So to just talk about the benefits of not being like everybody else, we just have to consider that there are benefits there. The other thing with not having a smartphone like everybody else that looks like, you know, everybody else's phone is. It does start to build these leadership skills. And because when you stand out from the crowd, you're a leader. I was recently talking with the NFL player, a retired NFL player, and I might have mentioned this on another podcast recently, but he said that, you know, he was this incredible athlete all through college. He was in two sports on college teams, football teams and basketball teams. Like, how do you do that? Like, that's just really exceptional. And he said growing up, his parents always taught him that if the crowd is going, you know, one direction, that you're, you're to go the opposite direction of the crowd. And he said, so that's just how I grew up. Like, and, you know, I just grew up doing things really different. And he was totally on board with me. He's not giving his kids smartphones and all that kind of stuff too. Other thing that you touched on is this innovation, so this innovation principle that when your kids don't have a smartphone, you know, even when they don't have a phone at all, they have to be creative and start figuring out how to solve problems another way. Yes. And they have to think about planning ahead. The other thing is that they learn a lot of life skills that maybe kids who have smartphones don't learn. And even, even with a flip phone, you are going to learn how to read a map. You're not going to depend on gps. Right. You are going to also talk to people more because like you said, you're not texting as much. And maybe at school, you have to go to your coach and say, hey, coach, you, can you text my mom or can I use your phone to call my mom? If you don't have a phone yet. This is why I think for kids, not even having any phones at all up until they're around 15 is a really good idea. But then when they do get a phone, and let me say this, I think this might be the biggest take home line of the podcast. When they do get a phone, they should always start with a flip phone. With a basic phone, always. We should never start with a smartphone. So if the whole world would do this, we would not be in the trouble that we're in today with a mental health crisis. Because what would happen is we would realize as parents, you know what, even with a flip phone or a basic phone, our kids are just, they're still having trouble. Right. And we would, we would not hand over the smartphone before we saw how they were able to manage their life. On a flip phone. Because some kids still can't even do well with a flip phone. Right.

[A]

They're right.

[B]

Texting all day long. So I don't want to lose you. So where are you tracking? Are you hearing what I'm saying?

[A]

Every. Every minute of it. I especially connected with what you said about, like, talking to a coach. And I think part of the heartbreak of what's happening in our soc, to me and for our kids and in schools and. And with each other, is the disconnect of looking to other people for. For connection, for help, for. For problem solving. And that's a big part of it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so then we're in. We're. We've got to address it. So let's. As we start to address this problem and all with this podcast and with what the solution is, let's talk about what is the right device. And I know that there are so many devices right now. You and I talked about this. There's so many devices for kids now. And what I'm concerned about is we're morphing these devices into smartphones. They. They start. A lot of these companies started off to be, this is the phone for kids. And. But then now every six months that goes by, they're looking more and more and more like smartphones in their acting relationship.

[A]

Why does everyone just want to be cool? Like, I feel like that's the problem with edtech. It's like everybody just wants to be cool. It's like if we could just, you know, get the Fonz back to, say, flip phones. That's what's cool.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we can. And actually, there is this vintage movement happening right where I think it's. It's more cool, if you will, to have a flip phone as a kid today than it was five years ago.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so with. For your boys, if. If we were sitting here and I was talking to your boys, I would first of all, have them talk to my boys who didn't have, you know, a smartphone.

[A]

I. I have to tell you, I showed them the seminar you did where your son talked. It was great. I was like, this is amazing for kids to see other kids say that. This is. This is great. That was fantastic.

[B]

Well, good. And because sometimes we just need, as a teenager, we just need to hear another somebody who's a peer of ours, you know, our same age person say, hey, really? It's not that. That deep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's really okay. You're gonna be okay. So you're in a situation Though, which a lot of parents are where they're thinking, my kids need to have a little bit of this. Right. So I really recommend a flip phone. I don't recommend. And this is just based off all my experience over the years with not only my own kids, with all the people I work with. Yeah, that it, you should always start simple. The most simple, then to the most complex. So with a 14 year old or with a 15 year old, you start with a flip phone. I mean a base, a flip phone that looks like a flip phone. And I, you and I were talking about the cellular company, right? What is it the name of it?

[A]

Consumer.

[B]

Consumer cellular. And they have a flip phone that is pretty inexpensive. It's under $50. And their, their service is pretty inexpensive too. So. And then you were saying this is what you had, right?

[A]

Yep, that's what I have. Yeah. I think the phone might have been 60 when I got it, but they did have a special on the Barbie phone which I did not get.

[B]

You did not get there.

[A]

Which was a little cheaper.

[B]

I was just like at a, I don't know, one of these big box stores and they had the consumer cellular and it had a 49 flip phone. And I looked at it in the case and I, I was talking to the salesperson, I'm like, this is awesome. And he said, yeah, and the cool thing is that you can get it with or without data. So that means you can still make phone calls and do texts. That's right, that. And that's a cheaper monthly thing than with data. So I said, oh my gosh. So you can get this phone without data, meaning your kids can't get to the Internet. He goes, yes, you can. So that was just a few weeks ago. So if you're listening.

[A]

Oh, there you go.

[B]

That out for your kids. And again, what I'm saying is, it's not that your kids can't have a smartphone one day, but what I'm saying is we start at the most basic level and we do this with everything. When we're teaching them how to ride a bike, they have training wheels, Right. When we're teaching them how to cook, you know, we, we don't give them the open flame to burn themselves. And when we're teaching them how to drive, they're driving in our driveway first. Right. You know, we don't put them on the highway the minute we give them the keys. And that's the equivalent of what we're doing. We give a smart smartphone. So what I'm saying to everyone, right now today, there's all these companies out there doing all this stuff. I mean, there is a list of companies. I don't even want to list all their names. There's a list of all the. The smartphones that are not really smartphones supposedly, and they're supposed to be for kids. And I'm just going to tell everyone, we don't need all that right now. What we need. If you're starting off with a smartphone idea or if you want. You think you want to get a smartphone for your kids, what I want you to do is think really clearly about going to one of the phone carriers and just getting a flip phone. It is possible. It's doable, they're inexpensive. And now your child has an opportunity to demonstrate to you their maturity around this. Are they going to still stay up and text all night then? That's a problem. You're going to start seeing that right away. A lot of parents will get a flip phone and they will put it in their kitchen and plug it in, and it becomes the device that their kids get to take and they get to share with their sibling. You know, whoever needs it, who's going to baseball can take it, who's going to babysit, who's going to walk the neighbor's dog, and it becomes a shared device. I highly recommend doing this. Wow. You cannot go wrong. It's like a house phone. But, you know, there's a lot of kind of new things out about going back to the home phones and all that too. But I think just getting a basic flip phone, I mean, I mean, like, not the one, not the thing that looks like the smartphone. I'm talking about a basic flip phone. Keep it in your kitchen. And then if your kids complain about it, guess what? They're not mature enough for any phone. Because if they really wanted the phone for the reasons that they're talking about in order to talk to their friends and call you if they need to, then if a flip phone does exactly that, it exactly solves that problem. The problem that it doesn't solve is the group chats, right in the group texting. And I will tell you, even at the age of 15, group communication is really not a great idea. It is not a great idea. You can have a group me on your computer. Your son can have his group me situations on his computer where he can check that periodically, but when it's on his person, when he's being distracted by watching and doing all the group stuff, I have had so many parents tell me that they are so Shocked over how kids use.

[A]

Of course. Of course.

[B]

I've had moms tell me like if they're, if they, if they took their kids phone away because they got in trouble for something and they had their phone with them during the day, they will list 180 times their kids got dinged on a group chat that day. Like, I'm like, oh my goodness. Because remember, they're not using it like an adult, they're using it like a kid.

[A]

And I've seen some adult group chats.

[B]

Yes. Doesn't it drive?

[A]

They're not, they're not on point either.

[B]

No. I don't have to get myself out of those things all the time. Right. Because it's just a constant flow. And so I think that putting a group chat situation, having him put the group me on his computer is fine. That's all he needs.

[A]

I didn't even know that was possible.

[B]

Oh yeah, my kids did it. It's possible. And it's not in their pocket. They check it like we did our email years ago, you know, one time a day. Let's go see what's happening. And it doesn't have to all be in real time. So my recommendation for you, I know your son, I don't know, he might think that he still wants a flip phone that looks like a smartphone. But you know what, by the time high school hits, nobody cares what your phone looks like. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. These are fantastic tips. And one thing that I found very interesting was the idea of having one shared phone too, because then people are not going to be either very accountable on the phone, like they're not going to be texting or getting text texts that you know, aren't cool or not cool but like aren't okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and, and I really like the idea of the, the ability to do a group text on a computer, which I didn't know about.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that if parents are still concerned about their kids missing out on stuff, it is perfectly fine for you as a parent if you have a smartphone to have that group text or the group thing app on your phone. And if there's any emergency thing that your kid needs to know, like something about practice or something got changed or whatever, then you can just text him on his flip phone and say, hey, Practice is at 4 instead of 3 today. Like you. He doesn't need all that.

[A]

Yes, agreed. Yeah.

[B]

And, but they're, but they're going to say they need it for all these Things, but they really don't. And so as a parent, you're the coach, you're managing your team, and that's part of your management job.

[A]

Agreed. And we're actually lightening their load. You just made me think of that when you said that, like we are helping them lighten their load and we know what it feels like to have to be bombarded with information.

[B]

So their load should be heavy with good things that are really helping their development. Yeah.

[A]

Like healthy connection.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Humanity. Humanity, yeah.

[B]

And they should be worried about, you know, hitting their basketball, you know, goals, and they should be worried about things like working out and hanging out with friends. That's, that's where they should be focused. Not on all the extra stuff that comes with the phone. So just to, just to wrap up, let's just review this again really quick. So we're talking about getting, for your kids, starting with a flip phone, just like mom has. I'm so excited.

[A]

It's a great point about starting as basic as possible because then you can also see what they can tolerate, like what, what overwhelms them, what changes their moods, all that stuff.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

That's a great, great advice.

[B]

You're gonna find that, you know what, they're gonna be fine with the flip phone. It's no big deal.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's really not that deep. But we imagine all these things in our brain and we dream up all these horrible things and somebody's gonna point a finger at him and laugh at him and make fun of him. And I remember when I was in middle school and I didn't want anybody laughing at me. And so as a parent, we try to jump ahead and smooth out the path for our kids and nobody laughs at them. And honestly, the thing is, what's the big deal? So somebody makes fun of your phone. Woohoo. Whatever. You know, like my kids said, well, they weren't making fun of a character quality I had. They're making fun, I didn't have a phone.

[A]

Like that's kind of like that's a good point.

[B]

So there's all these teaching points around it. And what I want to just say to parents is don't miss the opportunities for these incredible life lesson teaching, character building things that you won't be able to do once they leave your house. You know, so it's just kind of a team decision you make as a family. You start off with this flip phone in the kitchen and you may never graduate from that actually, it may just actually be all they need. And I think it's a really, like I said, good idea to have it so it's a shared device. And then as they get older and there's more maybe a rite of passage where, okay, maybe you get your own flip phone. But honestly, between the ages of 15 and 18, we're just talking about a few months, you know, it's not that long. And they need to get really good at managing this flip phone first before they manage a smartphone. And I, I will tell parents, please don't compromise, don't compromise and say, well, then I just want to get them one of these devices that just look like a smartphone, that really just have a basic phone capability. I think that that's, you know, okay if you really have to, to do that. But I don't recommend that. I recommend, you know, hitting the home run right in the home run is that they get okay in their own skin and they get comfortable being different. They, maybe you can find a few friends, you know, if they're, if they're brothers and they can both have it. Like our kids were brothers and it was like easier because their brother kind of had it, whatever, the same thing they, they had or didn't have. But if you can find a few friends, that's good. I would remind you that you're building grit. They're, they're building grit. You're building grit as a parent and that you're getting a little backbone to be able to say no to some things and not yes to everything.

[A]

And also, I just want to jump in and say, for me, it was never a no. It was an of course not. Like, of course we don't. And this is why, like, and it was a continued conversation. It was never, like, I never wanted it to become a battle because then it's like, why would we bring that into our home? Right? And so it became a conversation. Like I would talk about nutrition or I would talk about money or any other long term life skill. It's like, oh, do you, you know, look at that person crossing the street and not even looking at cars coming, like, that's, that's really dangerous or, and so on even getting a phone. It's like, you know, when they were little and they would ask, I would, they'd say, when can we have a phone? And I say, when you're 18. Yeah, period. Like, it was it for me. It wasn't even a question for, you know, and knowing that we would have this conversation at some point, but.

[B]

Right, well, stick to your guns on that. And you had really good instincts around that, and you still do. And I will just encourage you to continue with those instincts. And I will also say that very quickly, your kids, friends, the people who are really their friends, will adjust and they will learn to call them on their flip phone. They will learn that they don't have to be in the group chats. They will learn to call your phone if they need to. And the goal will always be to get together in person and that they're not going to try to substitute their social life for one online.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I promise that the kids adjust and they will not make fun of them to the point where your child can't function in life. That's not gonna happen. The parents care more about this than the kids do. Kind of blows your mind when you think about that. But that's true in other areas as well. With our kids, you know, with the clothes they wear, the socks, the tennis shoes, we want them all to be cool. We want them to look like whatever. And honestly, it's kind of coming from the parents. So I love your attitude. I love your stick to itiveness, and I'm glad that we could get on here today and just talk about some of these nuances around some final decisions that you're going to make right now with your, your, your kids. So just to reiterate, you know, back to the original question. What is the best phone for kids? Once you decide to get them something, it will always be the cheapest, most boring, basic flip phone you can find. Right? Okay, right. And consumer cellular. I mean, I don't get any, you know, kickback from them, but I was so excited to see that. And I think Verizon has one, too. I saw online where it's. You want to get the one with no data. All right, you. They don't need the data, so just find, find that. And then if they're complaining that it doesn't look like a smartphone, then guess what? They're not ready even for a flip phone yet. Because you should always start with that. You should give it as late as possible. So, you know, maybe 15, but even, even later or, you know, and then keeping, keeping the home phone, making it like a home phone, like it's not their phone. You. It should never be carried with them 24 7. Like I said, you know, keep it in the kitchen and treat it like a tool, like a wrench in the garage or the toaster on the counter. Don't treat it like it's their best, most fun Christmas present coming.

[A]

Oh, huge, huge, huge important point. Because if you Give it as a gift, like a Christmas present or something. It sends the message that this is a very exciting rite of passage, amazing, special thing. As opposed to, we're gonna get it with our groceries.

[B]

Yes. Please don't do that. Don't ever give a phone as a gift. That is one of the biggest mistakes makes parents make around this, because it's really hard to take the, quote, gift away when you probably will have to take it away and realize that, you know, a flip phone should always be given before a smartphone. And then the final thing I want to say on my tips list here is to skip the watches. Skip the watches. I know a lot of people use those smartwatches now for their kids. And all this applies. It all applies to the smart watches. And I guess, finally, little tip. Don't ever call it a dumb phone. Right? I. I shudder when I hear people calling flip phones dumb phones. I'm like, flip phones are the smartest phones.

[A]

They're the smarter phone. They're the smarter phone.

[B]

Let's call it the smarter phone. Yay.

[A]

Haley.

[B]

What a great. Thank you for saying that. I'm writing that down.

[A]

Yes, please do phone.

[B]

Yes. Thank you. So can you give some encouragement to parents that are listening, that are really struggling because their kids are begging and maybe they gave them a smartphone already. What would you encourage them to do?

[A]

Oh, that's great question. What comes to mind right away is conversation and teaching kids what the effects are, as Greenstrong knows so well. And I. I think modeling is also so important. And I know a lot of parents who say, oh, I want to do that, but either my life's on my phone or I can't, or. And it's. There's always kind of a barrier to the parent. I feel like what helped me was when I knew that it was not okay for me, it was to question whether it would be okay for my kids. I knew as a grown up this was dangerous for me. Like, this is not good for my life. And so with my kids, it was just a no, of course not. Like, this is what we're going to do. So I think that's hard for parents because they don't. They're not. They are not sure how to do it themselves. So switching to a flip phone. Switching to a flip phone is a move that, as a grown up, will influence your entire household and will influence the change if you want to get a child off of a smartphone. And so that. And I guess I want to break this down a little bit with you, Melanie, because for Parents who say, I can't, or, oh, I take it out. Like, there's a lot of. And I hear people go, well, I don't want to shame anyone. And, you know, as if it's this secret life that people have. But that's kind of the problem is that, you know, what I do, for example, is if I'm texting on my phone, if I need to take out my phone, I'll always, 100% of the time tell my kids what I'm doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it keeps it from being an isolated situation where I have this secret life over here. Like, think about, we used to walk in a room and you'd have, like, one person reading a book and one person. You'd pick up a landline phone and be like, oh, so and so's on the phone, and you'd call the person across the house and they'd pick it up. And so there was. Even though people were doing their own thing, there was a shared space. There was. You knew what people were kind of doing. So there wasn't a sense of isolation. So one of the things I do with a flip phone and people can start doing this with their smartphones now to kind of of start the process is I. I always say to my kids, oh, I'm texting so and so. And if it's someone's mom to help them, like when they were a little younger, like, help them set up social time, I will show it to them and I will say, is that cool? Do you like how I wrote that? What should I say? Like, I always involve them in it. So it's not a. Just a. A center, like a centerpiece in the background of noise. So. So in making the switch, I think that's what's really hard for parents is doing it themselves. And I feel like if they do it, they get more conviction to be like, oh, my God, I feel so much better. Let me help my child feel better. This isn't even a question. And Screenstrong has detox advice and so many resources for that kind of thing. But you have to know it for yourself, and you have to feel it for yourself and see it for yourself. And so as a parent, if you are even thinking about getting a flip phone, I say, yes, of course, definitely. I encourage it. But I know that the complexities are hard. I once talked to a woman who was frustrated because there were companies that hadn't paid their taxes or in the United States, and one of them was a big cell phone company. And she was so frustrated about It. And I said, oh, well, I know of a cell phone at the time, this was years ago. Oh, I know of a cell phone company that, you know, they do, they do cool things with, with profits. And. And she said, oh, well, I'm gonna stick with them because we have the bundle and it's just a hat, you know, and it's that same kind of thinking of like, I know I want to do something and make change. I know this is not okay. I'm fighting with my child every day. Like, what a waste of time in a way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And a waste of relationship connection. But can you take that, like that courageous step and just go, you know what? I'm just gonna try it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna like. And like you suggested earlier, Melanie, which was such a good idea. Try it part time. Like, try it and just see how you feel. See the difference in your life, you know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I think that I would say, like, if the parents can model, just provides so much more support in. Why? Because you can feel it.

[B]

Because you feel it and you certainly feel it. And that's great, great advice. That's very encouraging. And I think maybe it would be really good too if you could as a family just say, like, for the month of December, we're all gonna have flip phones, you know, because they're not that excited expensive compared to thousand dollars, $700, whatever smartphones that are out there. Plus I'm quite sure you could probably get some used ones that are really inexpensive, but it would just be kind of a cool experiment to do. I would also just like to encourage parents that you can always go back. So if you've given your kid a smartphone and you realize that there's lots of problems happening or that life could be a lot better with a flip phone, you have every right in every prerogative to do that and to just say, you know what, we made a mistake and we're gonna go back and what we're gonna do. And it's all about your attitude. It is not about being, you know, overly, you know, controlling or mean. That's not what it is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

About your attitude. And I highly encourage anyone listening who is thinking, wow, I wish I had given my kid a, you know, a smarter phone, a flip phone, you know, before I gave him this, this smartphone. And you can, you can go back and you can fix it. Now you can, you have our permission to do it. You are the coach. When you're, you're having a losing streak, you change the game plan. You don't keep doing the same thing over and over. So thank you so much, Haley, for coming on.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Our minds and given us so much to think about. I am so encouraged over your ability to have a flip phone, and I'm excited to hear and to talk to you further down the road about what you end up doing, you know, with your sons. And. And I feel like, again, the. The main point here is to take it slow. You know, just take one step, little step at a time. We don't have to. To give everything all at once. I think that that's something that we all have to remember to do, to slow down and kind of put the brakes on, and let's just take things a little bit slower than our culture is telling us, you know?

[A]

Yes. And, you know, I just had a thought that I think could be helpful. The idea of it's too late or I made a mistake. And if you talk to your kids about that, you're modeling that when something doesn't work, no matter how bad it gets, you can change it.

[B]

Yes. And the world doesn't fall apart.

[A]

Right. Right. And you can make. Make those changes. And it might be complex, and it might be hard to, you know, move an address book over. It might be hard to take a kid. You know, it's very complex in so many ways, but it's also, like you said, it's also not so deep. And so, you know, if you know that, I think when kids see parents as humans and also that they're not just going, oh, when you're in too deep, just stay in it. Because I don't want to. Because. Because we're just managing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's like, no, when you're in that deep, what can we do to change it? And so if you've made a mistake or you feel ashamed or whatever it is, you know, scared, take the steps. Because you're also showing that those steps can be made. And so many people that I hear that do this say, my child came back to life. I got my child back. You know, it happens over and over and over.

[B]

Yes. And there's always a good outcome. And it's like, you're so scared, but then you do it, and it's like, oh, my gosh, you're not going to believe what happened.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was not what I thought. And so. So thank you so much for reminding us to, like, not parent out of that fear. Right. To. To do the hard thing, to have to teach our kids how to do the hard thing. And sometimes that hard thing means taking your smartphone away, and we're going to go back to the way we should have done this from the beginning, and we're all gonna just enjoy life a lot better. Thank you so much for sharing that. Wow, what a great tip. Is there anything else that you have? You're full of wonderful tips today. Thank you. No, no, no, thanks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't think of anything else? Okay. So, no. But thank you so much for coming on.

[A]

Oh, I have one more thing, which is when you drop a flip phone, the screen does not crack. Wow, another huge benefit. I've probably dropped this phone four times. The back comes off, the battery flies out, and I put it back together.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Well, that may be worth the whole podcast.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Thank so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for sharing all the things about what you're struggling right now with your kids and just what you're going to do. We're going to probably have you back on in a couple months, Haley. I want to find out what happens.

[A]

I'd love to come back with your boys.

[B]

Let's. Let's follow up on this and see what happens. You know, truthfully, I want to hear. I want to hear what happens. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

So thank everyone for listening and just remember to come on over to our website [e-mail] and you'll find all sorts of free help over there. Also, we do have a BE ScreenStrong sub stack and we have lots of things we write about. So if you don't know about the sub stack, please check that out because, you know, it's like a blog, but it's a little bit different. So please check that out. And just remember some of these tips today that Christmas is coming. You do not have to cave in and give your kids smartphones. Please rethink what you're doing about that. So remember, we've got your back and we're here to help. You have everything you need to remove the screen conflicts from your home. So until next time, stand up for your kids. Stand out from the crowd and. And get them a flip phone and stay strong.