The Case for Screen-Free Schools: Protecting Kids’ Minds & Character with Dr. Kathleen O'Toole (#256)

Summary

ScreenStrong Families Podcast #256

Episode Title: The Case for Screen-Free Schools: Protecting Kids’ Minds & Character with Dr. Kathleen O'Toole
Host: Mandy Hammond (for Melanie Hempe, BSN)
Guest: Dr. Kathleen O’Toole, Associate VP for K12 Education at Hillsdale College
Date: February 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the case for screen-free schools, examining how classical education models support deeper learning, stronger character development, and healthier school cultures by limiting or eliminating student device use. Host Mandy Hammond speaks with Dr. Kathleen O’Toole, a leader in K–12 education at Hillsdale College, to discuss why prioritizing teacher-led classrooms and real human conversation sets children up for academic, social, and civic success. The conversation covers differences between classical and mainstream education, the challenges posed by ed tech and pervasive screens, and practical steps parents and educators can take.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Classical Education (02:17–06:05)

• Classical vs. Mainstream Approach:
  Dr. O'Toole describes herself as a lifelong teacher, committed to promoting excellence in education by drawing on the Western tradition—great books, big ideas, and morals. Teacher-led classrooms, deep content expertise, and a curriculum focused on "the very best that has been thought and said," distinguish classical schools from technology-driven or student-led models.
• Teacher’s Role:
  “A school is only as strong as the conversation happening between the teacher and the students in the classroom.” (03:43, O'Toole)
• Teacher Quality:
  Classical schools often hire educators with master’s degrees or PhDs—even for middle school—ensuring deep subject knowledge and effective classroom leadership.

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2. The Power of the Curriculum (06:05–09:29)

• Examples of Student Reading:
  • Wind in the Willows in elementary
  • Homer’s Iliad and annual Shakespeare for middle/high school
  • Moby Dick in 11th grade
• Raising Expectations:
  Classical schools don’t “talk down to kids” but instead challenge students with meaningful works, fostering self-esteem and intellectual confidence.
• Respect for Students:
  “The curriculum treats students with respect. We don’t talk down to kids in classical schools. We give them an opportunity to do the very best.” (08:30, O'Toole)

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3. Technology: Tool, Not Master (09:29–11:49)

• Deliberate Tech Minimization:
  From the outset, Hillsdale-affiliated schools have prioritized “very careful use of technology,” treating it strictly as a tool.
• No Phones, Minimal Screens:
  “We’ve never allowed students to have cell phones. It’s always been clear that it’s a terrible distraction... it impedes their ability to develop real friendships during the day.” (10:18, O'Toole)
• Adaptation Period:
  Students new to classical schools quickly adjust to learning without personal devices, finding unexpected enjoyment in genuine, face-to-face interaction and communication.

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4. Concerns About Screens in Schools (11:49–14:52)

• Trends and Backlash:
  Both parents and teachers (then and now) worry about students falling behind without constant tech, but Dr. O'Toole counters those concerns—highlighting that tech integration in mainstream schools often leads to worse engagement, not better.
• Being Present:
  “It really robs students of the opportunity to be where they are. I mean, that’s kind of just sort of a good rule for life. Be where you are, do what you are doing. Don’t be in this virtual world while you’re physically in this other world.” (13:28, O'Toole)
• Recognition of Harm:
  Dr. O'Toole cites Jonathan Haidt’s The Anxious Generation and the global phone-free schools movement as encouraging responses—but emphasizes it’s just a start.

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5. The Limitations of Ed Tech and the Human Element (14:52–19:30)

• AI Tutors vs. Human Teachers:
  Referring to recent commentary by Elon Musk, O’Toole calls the idea of AI replacing teachers “a grim future... a miserable existence.” (15:36, O'Toole)
• Purpose of Education:
  Education’s goal “is not merely the delivery of content,” but forming character, judgment, and social habits.
• Learning as Struggle:
  Real education involves wrestling with ideas, dialogue, and gradual understanding—something shortcuts like ChatGPT synopses can never provide.
• Memorable Analogy:
  “Would I understand Hamlet [just by reading a summary]? Not at all. To understand Hamlet... you have to struggle with them, you have to wrestle with them.” (17:20, O'Toole)

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6. Dialogue in the Classical Classroom (20:12–24:24)

• Student Engagement:
  Dr. O’Toole describes her 11th grade philosophy class, where students—most together since elementary years—are deeply engaged with Aristotle, discussing virtues and how to live well.
• Virtue is Practical:
  “Virtue is not a disciplinary system. It’s not like this thing that the adults are trying to get the kids to do simply so that we can have order in the school. No, like, choosing virtue is the thing that makes you happy.” (23:59, O'Toole)
• Practical Application:
  Students learn to spot the "mean" between vices, not merely absorb doctrine.

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7. The Foundations of Citizenship (24:45–29:45)

• Article Discussion:
  Dr. O’Toole summarizes her piece, “Citizenship Starts in the Classroom,” arguing that classical education best prepares students for thoughtful civic participation—not just activism or activism-by-proxy.
• Learning from Founders:
  The Founders’ education was much like a rigorous classical curriculum—thorough, text-based, focused on debates and underlying principles.
• Seminar Discussion:
  “Citizens who disagree have conversation with each other, deliberate... the product of that disagreement is the best decision for all and a greater understanding.” (28:26, O’Toole)

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8. Social Media and Shallow Discourse (29:45–32:05)

• Impact of Screens on Dialogue:
  O’Toole warns that social media “removes the possibility for actual discussion and actual understanding,” replacing real debate and consensus with superficial signals (likes, shares) and shallow engagement.
• Memorable Quote:
  “You can do that [like or dislike] without understanding anything about what you’re clicking on. And there’s no conversation that’s present.” (31:15, O'Toole)
• Dangers of “Activist Training Without Understanding”:
  Both host and guest agree that screen-exposed, social media-centered youth culture encourages action without depth or reflection.

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9. Final Reflections & Practical Takeaways (32:05–36:13)

• Quote from Dr. O'Toole's Article:
  “If we want a citizenry capable of sustaining liberty... we must teach our students to be virtuous both individually and politically. Only then will they be capable of self-government, not as activists or spectators, but as citizens.” (32:05, as quoted by Hammond)
• Practical Advice for Parents:
  “Read out loud to your children at night for 30 minutes every day... it will transform your family life.” (34:00, O'Toole)
  This can continue even with teenagers and adults—shared reading builds family culture and intellectual life far beyond mere literacy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A school is only as strong as the conversation happening between the teacher and the students in the classroom.” (03:43, O'Toole)

• “We’ve never allowed students to have cell phones. It’s always been clear that it’s a terrible distraction and it’s an impediment… to develop real friendships.” (10:18, O'Toole)

• “Be where you are, do what you are doing. Don’t be in this virtual world while you’re physically in this other world.” (13:28, O'Toole)

• “Education is the formation of the human being… you develop a character, you develop a sense of right and wrong. You develop habits of living individually and with others.” (16:12, O'Toole)

• “To understand Hamlet or any of these great works… you have to struggle with them… ask yourself more questions… a process of deliberation…” (17:20, O'Toole)

• On Virtue:
  “Virtue is not a disciplinary system… Choosing virtue is the thing that makes you happy.” (23:59, O'Toole)

• On Seminar Discussion:
  “Citizens… deliberate with each other, disagree… the product of that disagreement is the best decision for all and a greater understanding.” (28:26, O’Toole)

• On Social Media:
  “It kind of removes the possibility for actual discussion and actual understanding… it’s very superficial, very immediate and it, it does destroy the opportunity for real conversation.” (31:15, O’Toole)

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Useful Timestamps

• 02:17: Dr. O'Toole’s background and the mission of Hillsdale K–12
• 06:29: Sample works from classical curriculum
• 09:29: Technology philosophy in Hillsdale network
• 12:17: Concerns about screen exposure in mainstream schools
• 15:36: AI tutors vs. real teachers
• 20:12: Inside Dr. O'Toole’s 11th grade classroom on Aristotle and virtue
• 24:45: Why “Citizenship Starts in the Classroom”
• 29:45: How screens undermine civil discourse and deep learning
• 32:05: Closing wisdom and Dr. O’Toole’s call for robust, virtue-driven civic education
• 34:00: “Read out loud to your children”—simple, powerful advice for families

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Further Resources

• Learn More about Hillsdale K–12: k12.hillsdale.edu
• Dr. O’Toole’s article: Citizenship Starts in the Classroom (linked in show notes)
• ScreenStrong resources: screenstrong.org

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Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is thoughtful, hopeful, and practical—rooted in a deep concern for children’s well-being, but refusing to cede ground to hype about ed tech or inevitabilities about screens. Both the host and guest are passionate, knowledgeable, and solution-oriented, offering concrete steps for families and educators to foster real learning, sound character, and healthy social connection—beginning with less screen time and more genuine conversation.

"Stand up for your kids, stand out from the crowd, and stay strong."

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Screenstrong Families Podcast, bringing you the best solutions for parents who are serious about eliminating screen conflicts in their homes. This is Mandy Hammond, ambassador, liaison and speaker on the screenstrong team and your host for today's episode. So thank you so much for joining us today. Whether you just found us or you've been around for a while, you have found your people. We are so glad you're here. So I am very excited today about our guest. Her name is Dr. Kathleen O' Toole and she is the Associate Vice President for K12 Education at Hillsdale College, where she leads Hillsdale's work in K12 education, including the K12 Education Office and HEAL. Oh, my goodness. Can't say that. Hillsdale Academy, The Hillsdale College K12 Education Office's mission is to promote the founding of classical schools and excellence in their teaching and operations so that American students may be educated in the liberal arts and sciences and receive instruction in the principles of moral character and civic virtue. In pursuit of this mission, the K12 Education Office focuses on five areas. Board governance, school leadership, curriculum, classroom instruction, and school culture. They collaborate with parents, teachers, school leaders, board members and policymakers to found and support a nationwide network of classical schools that revive the American tradition of K12 education. I am so thrilled to have Dr. O' Toole on with us today. Welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be talking to you.

[A]

Yes. I'm really excited for our audience to that maybe does not know a lot about classical education to get introduced to it. I shared with you before we hit record that I'm. I currently work part time at a classical education school in the office and it is just such a joy to see this type of learning happening that's very, very low to no tech and it just goes right along with what I do with Screenstrong. So I'm excited for you to kind of share what you all do there. But let's start with just telling us a little bit about you and your background.

[B]

Sure. Absolutely. Well, I am. I'm a teacher and I'm a school principal. That's what I did before I came to work at Hillsdale and that's kind of who I am deep down. Today my work does include teaching. I teach 11th grade philosophy at Hillsdale Academy, our classical school here in town. But I'm also in charge of this school support organization. We provide curriculum, we provide teacher training, board training and leader training to a growing network of classical schools across the country. Classical education is really catching on. It's one of the most encouraging things happening in our country today. And Hillsdale College provides support to qualifying schools all at no cost, because we want to see a recovery of excellence in American education.

[A]

Oh my gosh, that is so amazing. So something I grabbed off your website too, which resonated with what we teach at Screenstrong. We do our teacher workshops and things and trying to teach teachers that are out there in the public schools and are kind of inundated with this technology. We're trying to encourage them that they are the most important, you know, person in that child's life. And so it says on your website, teacher led classrooms are a hallmark of classical education. Teachers will never be replaced with student centered or personalized learning, which is students teaching themselves on laptops and digital learning. So just let's expound on that just a little bit. What does that mean as far as classical education? How that's different?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, a school is only as strong as the conversation happening between the teacher and the students in the classroom. Classical education differs, I think, from what you would typically find in an American classroom in a couple of ways. One way is the curriculum. In classical schools, we are focusing on what is tried and true, and we are trying to bring to students the very best that has been thought and said in every discipline over the course of Western civilization. And so we're drawing from the depths of our tradition in America and in the West. And we're bringing students great novels, great ideas, and the opportunity to become well rounded, to develop a sound foundation in the humanities, subjects like literature and, and history and the fine arts as well, and in the sciences, subjects like mathematics and chemistry and biology. And we want students to emerge from the classical school well rounded, having a solid foundation in all of those disciplines, and having had an opportunity to read the very best books that have been written, confront the most important ideas, and then from that solid foundation, go on to specialize or choose whatever it is that they're going to focus on in their adult life. Now, for a journey like that, you need a guide. You need someone who has traveled that road before. You need someone who has received a classical education, or at least a deep education in one part of a classical education. And that's why the teacher is so important. Classical schools are looking for teachers with deep knowledge in their content area. I used to be a principal of a classical school, and it was common for us to hire PhD or master's level people who had received that level of education to teach even middle school and of course, they had to be the kind of people who not only had that education, but were skilled at working with 6th, 7th, and 8th grade students. But you do, you do need a kind of a robust education in order to do a classical. To provide a classical education to students. Right?

[A]

Okay. So, yes, and I, I didn't, like I was telling you before, I knew nothing about classical education until almost four years ago. I'd never heard of it. I was so impressed with the, the reading that my son had to do. Can you give some examples of some books that you're students or scholars? I don't know. We call them scholars. What they read like it may be in middle school and in high school.

[B]

Absolutely. So. So from the very beginning of a child's education in a Hillsdale school, and all Hillsdale schools, whether they're charter schools or private schools, have a. Have a common approach to the curriculum, from the very beginning, they will be reading real works. One of my favorite works in the grammar school is the Wind in the Willows, which is this beautiful story about friendship and, and with these just vivid depictions of nature. We read that in the upper elementary, when students get into, when students get into the high school, they're reading Homer's Iliad. They read that in ninth grade. There's a lot of Shakespeare in the curriculum. We read beginning in a. Beginning in middle school, we read at least one Shakespeare play a year. They read Moby Dick in 11th grade in an American lit course. And, you know, to some parents who didn't receive a classical education, who maybe didn't encounter those works in college until college, or maybe they never encountered those works, that's kind of increasingly common. It can seem daunting to enroll a child in a school that's going to be, you know, giving them the opportunity to read these hefty works at such a young age. But classical education is not just curriculum, it's also instruction. And if you go to a school that has excellent teacher training and an excellent approach to instruction, the teachers can guide students to do these things well. And it's not. It's not a burden. It's not this kind of, like, daunting challenge. It's an opportunity. It's an opportunity to read something that's really worth reading. And the beauty of these classical works is you can tell. Even a young student can tell, this is worth my time. You know, this is an opportunity to do something really important and really interesting and really something that will stick with me. And so one thing I like to say about classical Education is the curriculum, treats students with respect. We don't talk down to kids in classical schools. We give them an opportunity to do the very best, and then the teacher is there to help them understand how to do it and guide them on that path.

[A]

And what a great way for these young people to be building self esteem and confidence. I mean, to accomplish reading, you know, Shakespeare or one of these large novels. I mean, it intimidated me when my son had this giant reading list and I'm going, okay, you know. But then remembering what we teach at Screenstrong about brain development is that their brains as a teenager are in this amazing time of new thinking skills. Like, this is the time that they can soak all this in and they can handle it and they can do it and rise to the occasion. So let me ask you, what kind of technology do you or does one use in a classical school? What kind of technology would a parent see in a classical school?

[B]

Well, when we. When we started this work in K through 12 education at Hillstone College over a decade ago, we made a list of 10 things. We wanted to be kind of guideposts for all of our schools and all of our work with schools. And one of them was very careful use of technology regarding technology as a tool, not an end in itself, not a goal. And today, if you were to walk through a Hillsdale school, you would see students who are accustomed to not having phones on their person during the day. We've never allowed students to have cell phones. It's always been clear that it's a. It's a terrible distraction and it's an impediment not only to the students own learning and understanding of the curriculum, but it impedes their ability to develop real friendships during the day. When a student transfers into a classical school, often they have a kind of an adjustment period. And first of all, I will say children rise to the occasion and they love the opportunity. And it's amazing how quickly they can adapt to a classical school. It's hard for us as adults to undergo these big changes, you know, but kids are. Kids are so adaptable and they're learning all the time. And so a parent shouldn't hesitate before enrolling a child in a classical school. They can do it, but one of the things that they have to learn is if they've been in an environment where they've had uninhibited or free access to their tablet or their device with one of the things they have to learn is they're not going to have that on their person all day. And it's sometimes they, sometimes they're surprised by how much eye contact they're making with other students and with their teacher. And that's a skill that they start to learn, you know, like talking face to face to another student, talking to an adult, learning how to talk to an adult rather than being in this kind of virtual world where, where, you know, real, real human conversation doesn't happen, but those transitions happen quickly. And, and it, and it's a really, it's a really healthy thing for, for the, for the students and for the entire culture of the place.

[A]

Yes. No, I love that. And I'm again, speaking from experience. I marvel every day I'm there and watch these kids interacting with one another and interacting with me as an adult and other teachers, and it's just, it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. So then that brings me to my next question, that as you look at today's educational landscape. Okay. What concerns you most about the amount of screen exposure that children are getting in the classroom? Just in general, what are your thoughts and opinions on that?

[B]

When I was a principal, I started one of the early Hillsdale schools back in 2014. And at that time, parents were very concerned that if they enrolled their child in a classical school and their children didn't have constant access to the latest technology or instruction and how to do coding or things like that, that they would be left behind by, by, you know, our changing technological future. And at that time there were a lot of, you know, I would interview teachers for the school and a lot of them who didn't understand what classical education was would come and talk about how great they were at integrating technology into the classroom. And so I would hear from them about, you know, Google Classroom and all of their lessons are pre programmed and they've got all of this interactive stuff going on. And I even interviewed a PE teacher at one point who was telling me about how he would integrate, like device use in the PE class.

[A]

No, I'm proud of this.

[B]

Do it.

[A]

Oh, don't give iPads or. No, just. Yeah, you don't need.

[B]

Yeah, it's really, it really robs students of the opportunity to be where they are. I mean, I think that's kind of just sort of a good rule for life. Be where you are, do what you are doing. Don't be in this virtual world while you're physically in this other world. And that's a, you know, that's, that's an important thing to remember as an adult. We always have to remind ourselves to do that. But if you've grown up that way, if your whole childhood has been where your mind is displaced, it's focusing on something that is different from where you're physically located. That's a really disjointed, confusing way to grow up. I think there are some encouraging signs. Jonathan Haidt's work has been so influential and that is such a good thing. He wrote the Anxious Generation, as I'm sure your listeners know. And it really showed the damage that has been done in a very short time to the minds of kids who have had all of this access to devices and social media. And now there's this phone Free Schools initiative and entire states and internationally, entire countries are passing legislation to say that children need to be not on their phones all the time when they're in school. And I think that's really encouraging.

[A]

Well, so I think there's still a lot of misconceptions though, with parents and maybe even some teachers. And we talk to a lot of teachers who are just fed up. I've heard of teachers just straight up quitting because they're just done, they're done managing all this technology and all of that. So I. We love this phone free movement in the schools. Obviously we're all about that. But then there's still this piece about ed tech that's there and our kids solely learning on computers. You know, laptop 9 computers, laptops, iPads, things like that, personal devices. So I mean, do we think that parents and educators are kind of waking up that this isn't working? Or like, what do you feel in the education space, you know, with your peers, you know, what do you think is happening?

[B]

I think you're right to bring all that up. I heard a podcast with Elon Musk recently in which he said that the future is every child has an AI tutor and the tutor is 100% attuned to the learning needs of that child. And of course, you know, more efficient than a human teacher would be or a school and a classroom would be. And I thought, oh my gosh, what a grim future that would be. What a miserable existence that would be.

[A]

It's over here shaking my head. I can't even believe it.

[B]

I mean, it's so first of all, we've got to remember that education is not just the delivery of content. It's not just taking stuff that the textbook or the teacher knows and importing it into the mind of the younger student. It's not, you know, it's not just reading the instruction manual for building your Ikea Cabinet education is deeper than that. It's richer than that. It's not mere content that needs to be delivered. Education is the formation of the human being. And by going to school, you develop a character, you develop a sense of right and wrong. You develop habits of living individually and with others. And those are fundamentally shaped by. By the family that you come from, but also the school that you go to. And that's an incredibly important part of education that. That's different from just the instruction that you receive in class and then the instruction that you receive in class. First of all, the thing that gives it energy and direction is the relationship that you have with the other students in the class and with the teacher. And then it's not once you, especially once you get to middle school and high school. I mean, I mentioned that we read Moby Dick in our schools or Shakespeare in our schools. It would be really easy right now to get grok or chatgpt to create a summary of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet or Shakespeare's Hamlet. And I could. I could download that, I could memorize that, and then I could deliver that to someone, and that would be really efficient. Would I understand Hamlet? Not at all. To understand Hamlet or any of these great works that we study in a classical education, you have to struggle with them, you have to wrestle with them, you have to be asked hard questions about them, and you have to answer those questions and then ask yourself more questions about it. And so it's a process of deliberation. It's a process of coming to understand. And a rich work like Shakespeare's work, you never get to the point where you have fully mastered it. And that's actually a good thing, because the experience of reading those plays and wondering about those plays and noticing new things about those plays over the course of your life helps you. Helps you develop your thinking, helps you understand the world more, more deeply, but also gives you new things to think about all the time. And so that's what education is about. It's not mastery. It's not division. It's not. It's not delivery of content when it's operating at the higher level. It's participating with others in thinking about big questions and big ideas. And that's something that technology is never going to be able to replace. Now, if we, if we do conceive of education as delivery of content, like, like many do, then sure, you know, we could use technology to import into the minds of students, but they won't really. They won't really become educated. So I'm I'm afraid that we'll forget what the purpose of education is.

[A]

Well, I think on a brain science level when we're on screens, you know, we're skimming things, it's, it's not, it's very shallow learning. It's not accessing the part of our brain and our kids brain that's that long term memory. Whereas when they're reading it for all of its, you know, all of it out of a book that is going to access their long term memory. And so I don't think people realize that, that it is, it's just this crazy shortcut with technology that you know, that kind of sold us this lie that they're going to be so advanced and all of this, but really they are not. Do you have any examples just from you said you teach 11th graders, which I love. Do you have any examples of recent dialogue or conversations or discussions that you all have had in the classroom?

[B]

Oh, sure. Well, it's a, it's a class called Moral and Political Philosophy. And so it's basically we're reading Aristotle right now. We're reading Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics right now, which is, it's a book about what is happiness, what is human happiness. And it's the book in which Aristotle talks about the moral virtues and the intellectual virtues. And so he explains why things like courage and moderation and justice are good for us and how they help us become happy. The students are a funny group of kids. They've been going to this school, most of them together since they were really little. I asked for a show of hands early in the semester. How many of you started school here in kindergarten, first grade, second grade. And the majority of the hands went up at that point.

[A]

They know each other well. They're like brothers and sisters.

[B]

They really, really know each other well. And they're, the school has a very strong partnership with their families. There's a lot of trust there, there's a lot of collaboration there. The school thinks that parents opinions about their children are fundamental. And they're, you know, they're not trying to, they're not trying to do something separate with the kids that the. From what the family is doing. And so it's a very, it's a very kind of healthy, beautiful culture. The kids are very, they're very well educated. They've, they've been going to this classical school for a long time. They're also kind of rowdy, but not in a, not in a, not in a like problematic way necessarily. They, they're interested in school. They're really, really interested in what we're reading. They're just kind of like verbal processors. And so there's a lot of. There's a lot of thinking going on while mouths are going. And so it's fun teaching them and kind of challenging too, sometimes. They can do Aristotle. They can do Aristotle. We're two books in. Aristotle's Ethics has 10 books. And we're in book two right now, and we're reading the whole thing. We are learning right now about. Aristotle says that virtue is a mean. He says that it's a middle condition. And so for every virtue, there are two vices that are. And you want to avoid the vices and choose the virtue. So, like, for courage, there are. Which is the. The virtue of responding appropriately to something that's. That causes fear in you, something that's scary. The two vices are cowardice, which everyone knows about, but also recklessness is also a vice. So cowardice would be getting overwhelmed by the fear when you shouldn't. And recklessness would be underestimating the fear, like being too confident or too bold in the face of something that's really scary. And I love Aristotle for that reason because he wants you to think about how to behave virtuously. And how do you choose the middle condition? Well, you have to think sometimes when we talk about virtue in classical schools, it can come across like the adults and the teachers, you know, say that you have to be virtuous because we don't want you to misbehave and so just do the virtuous thing. And it can come across like you want to do. You want to do something, but you shouldn't do it because it's not virtuous. And in Hillsdale schools, we talk all the time about. Virtue is not a disciplinary system. It's not like this thing that the adults are trying to get the kids to do simply so that we can have order in the school. No, like, choosing virtue is the thing that makes you happy. And in order to choose the virtuous thing, you have to think hard about what.

[A]

And.

[B]

And that should be, you know, that can't be done for you. You. You. The person acting, the student acting has to choose virtue, just like the adults have to choose virtue if they want to be happy. And it does genuinely make you happy. Anyway, so we're talking about all that, and they're very curious about, like, what. How do you know that? Like what the virtuous action is. How do you find the mean. So that's what we're in the middle of right now.

[A]

Oh, that's so encouraging. I just. I love it. So encouraging. Okay, well, I don't want this podcast to end without discussing your most recent. I think it was your most recent article called Citizenship Starts in the Classroom. I thought it was excellent. So let's just talk about that before we end today, because I want to make sure people know about it. We'll link it in the notes as well, because I thought it was great. But what inspired you to write this?

[B]

Well, I think there's a lot of talk about civic education today and the importance of civic education, especially with the 250th next year. And I. I wanted to kind of explain why classical education is a great preparation for citizenship.

[A]

Love that. Okay, so give us just a. Can you give me a brief summary of your article? I mean, I've got some quotes that I pulled out of it, but, like, just tell our audience a little bit about what it's about.

[B]

Sure. Well, you know, citizenship or civic education sometimes gets a bad rap because it's kind of like we're. It's kind of like we're. The danger would be that through our prep, through our civic education that we provide in schools, we're exposing kids to the. To the messy and sometimes, sometimes dangerous world of politics, of current affairs before they're ready. And in some schools, you'll see this action civics approach. And the idea is you need to learn a kind of civic activism while you're young so that when you're an adult, you can be an effective protester or an effective advocate for your point of view. And, you know, in classical schools, we think civic education is really important, but we. We think action civics is not the way we think because we're Americans. We live in a pretty rare country. We live in a pretty unique country. America was founded at a particular place and time, and the people who were present at our founding not only fought a war to secure our independence, but were writing and thinking all the time about what it would mean for us to have a country. And they were incredibly educated. They received an education not unlike the education you would receive if you went to an excellent classical school today. And so they were really thoughtful on questions like, what does it mean for the government to respect the rights of the student of the. Not of the students, of the citizens? And what are the rights of the citizens? What is the proper relationship between the government and its people? And there's an incredible amount of thought and care that went into the creation of our country. And you can read our founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution today, and you can see the product of all of that thought and care that they put into the architecture of our nation. You can also read all of their letters and all of their commentary on why the Declaration and the Constitution are created the way that they are. And so that gives us a rare opportunity as Americans to study our founding. It happened at a particular place in time. There's an incredible amount of documentary evidence about the nature of America from its founding. And we are asked as citizens to. To know our country, and we can know it through. And so the first. The first step to becoming an excellent citizen, I would say, is come to understand your country, learn that story, read those documents, come to understand those documents. And then the second step is understand what the founders meant by civic participation. They thought that without a virtuous citizenry, without an educated citizenry, the nation would fall. And so it's, you know, we are. We are called by our founders to preserve this. This nation that we have, preserve this liberty that we have, which is actually a pretty rare thing if you look at the history of nations that came before us. And so in order to do that, you know, we need to be involved in politics, but we need to be involved in politics, in. In civics in an appropriate way. And in the piece, I talk about how a classical school that has seminar discussion gives students the opportunity to first study something and come to understand it, and then the opportunity to learn how to work with others, to develop a common understanding. We all have our opinions. That's the nature of politics. In an ideal setting, citizens who disagree have conversation with each other, deliberate with each other, disagree with each other, and the product of that disagreement is the best decision for all and a greater understanding. But in order for that product to actually happen and for the disagreement to be productive disagreement, the citizens have to conduct themselves in a certain way. And the piece is about how seminar discussion teaches students, too, to disagree in a healthy way.

[A]

And so how is that in today's culture, in society? We're obviously not seeing this at all. You know, we just look at our politics currently, and we're not seeing this civil discourse and this dialogue happening. And, I mean, it's kind of obvious why it's happening. But what would you say is happening when it comes to, you know, screen exposure, social media exposure? I mean, even just ed tech and learning on screens? Yes, but also kids on their screens at schools are accessing YouTube and playing video games and all these other Outside influences. How do screens or social media and things you, you talk about in your article, activists training without understanding. And when I read that, I was like, oh my gosh. In my mind, because I'm in this world of social media and video games and all this, my thought was, I mean, I know you're talking about the classroom and you're just regular educate mainstream education over here, but all of our kids have been on social media for the last 10 years or since they were little. And so their minds are being formed by that. And so when I read that line, activist training without Understanding, I was like, wow, that. Does that not scream what social media is? You know, jumping on somebody's bandwagon and jumping on somebody's opinion without really understanding what they're protesting about?

[B]

Yeah, I think social media is a really, is a really damaging force for a lot of reasons. But one, one is there's. It, it kind of removes the possibility from actual, for actual discussion and actual understanding. Someone will post something and then others will like it and that's how consensus is developed. And then someone will post something different and others will like that. And it's, it's sort of like who gets the most likes. That's whose argument or whose idea is, is the winning idea. But there's no, a simple clicking of a thumbs up. Like you can do that, you can do that without understanding anything about what you're clicking on. And there's no conversation that's present. I mean, sometimes you see conversation in the comments, but it's rare for that to be real conversation rather than just like an, like an affirmation of why I put my thumbs up or my thumbs down there, you know, and so it's, it's very superficial, it's very immediate and it, it does destroy the opportunity for real, for real conversation, real understanding, real healthy disagreement.

[A]

Well, let me, I want to say this last, I believe this was the last line in your article. I copied it over to my notes here because I thought it was great. But it says if we want a citizenry. Citizenry. Is my saying that right? If we want a citizenry capable of sustaining liberty, we cannot settle for activist training without understanding, nor abstract lectures without practice. We must teach our students to be virtuous both individually and politically. Only then will they be capable of self government, not as activists or spectators, but as citizens. I thought that was so well said.

[B]

Well, thanks. Yeah, I think, I think that's right. I think students with education generally and with civic education preparation for citizenship can do a lot more than we are asking of them. And I think that when they're given the opportunity to do a lot more, they will welcome it. That's always been my experience in seeing students. Students join classical schools. It can seem like a daunting prospect in the abstract, but once you're actually doing real things with your mind, once you're actually developing real friendships, deep friendships rather than superficial ones, that, that speaks to us whether we're adults or children. And so it's, it's an opportunity that I think every family should consider if they have it.

[A]

I agree. From a parent, I. From a parent perspective, I absolutely agree. And we found classical education at a time where, you know, around Covid and online school and just needing something different that wasn't online, that wasn't in the public school system and found classical education. And it has been amazing. So as we kind of wrap up today, what other do you have any encouragement for parents or just even one small thing that parents or even educators can do to make a meaningful impact in their kids lives outside of technology?

[B]

Read out loud to your children at night for 30 minutes every day. Choose something that's really interesting to you as an adult. Carve out time for yourself and for your children and read that thing out loud. It doesn't need to be at your child's reading level. It doesn't need to be something that your child is familiar with already. Choose something that, choose something that. Choose a novel and it can be a novel for children or a novel for adults. Choose something with really beautiful language, something that's really interesting and read it out loud for 30 minutes every night and it will transform your family life.

[A]

Well, that's beautiful. I love that and it makes me wish my kids were little again.

[B]

I know you can read out loud to big kids.

[A]

My only have one more, one more big kid left.

[B]

And he's almost my old, my old boss. He had this habit of reading out loud to his son, his firstborn son when he was born. And they, they had like seven sons and then a daughter was number eight. But his son just went off to college. His name was Nicholas, is Nicholas. And he told me up and through high school he would read out loud to his son. I mean his son could read to himself, you know, but he just enjoyed that time with his dad. His dad had a really good reading voice and they had, they had books that they wanted to go through together. So they just read out loud every night. I read out loud sometimes to, to high school students.

[A]

I know I hear a lot of our Teachers doing that with our students. And they'll read out loud. I hear it a lot as I'm walking the hallways.

[B]

Yeah, there's. It's not just for tiny kids to read out loud. You can read out loud to anyone.

[A]

Oh, I just love that. Okay, so where can our listeners learn more about your work about Hillsdale? Where can they go to learn more?

[B]

You can Visit us at k12, k12 hillsdale.edu, and you can learn all about the curriculum that we offer the schools that we are associated with. We have a. We have a new program called Core Virtues, which is a directory of excellent children's books that families can read together. And there's a lot more on there that people might find of interest.

[A]

That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciated our conversation.

[B]

It's great to talk to you.

[A]

Thanks. So thank you all for listening today. I hope you are just encouraged to know. I mean, like I have mentioned, I didn't even know about classical education only four or five years ago. And so maybe you're just hearing about it for the first time and it's something you want to look into for your children. It's a beautiful, beautiful education that they can receive and just really build a healthy brain for sure. And you know how much we talk about that around here. If you're interested in learning more about the topic of the brain science behind screen time and what it's doing to developing brains, we do have an awesome curriculum called Kids Brains and Screens for parents and students. We have workshops that we can present for parents, students, teachers to kind of talk about healthy ways to use technology and all the other amazing ways to build a healthy brain that are not around technology. We would love to see you over on our ScreenStrong Connect, which is our online forum for families that is not on social media. It's really simple to join for free by going to screenstrong.org we are on social media. If you just want to see the content that we put out there. But we don't engage much there, so you definitely want to find us on Connect to engage with our community. Please subscribe to this podcast and share it with somebody who might love it. Remember, we've got your back and we are here to help you remove the screen conflicts from your home. So until next time, stand up for your kids, stand out from the crowd and stay strong.