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ScreenStrong Families
What Happens When You Take Your Teen’s Phone Away: Understanding Screen Addiction & Withdrawal (#262)
00:47:14
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hi everyone. Welcome to the Screen Strong Families podcast, bringing you the best solutions for parents who are serious about eliminating screen conflicts in their homes. This is Mandy Hammond and I am your host for today's episode. Thank you so much for joining us. So I am not sure if you've heard heard lately what's been in the news, but there is a major social media trial going on currently in LA where CEOs of large tech companies like Meta, Snapchat, Instagram are being put on the stand to answer for the harm of their products. There have been whistleblowers who have come forward. There's been so much evidence that these companies internally knew and know what they are doing to kids. They're going for the kids. That has been the plan and it's really been an experience experiment gone wrong for the last 20 plus years and we're really starting to see this in society. Countries like Australia has already put laws into place to ban social media access to any child under 16 and many other countries are following suit. So. And if you're been around for a while, you know that screenstrong, we've been educating parents on the dangers of these products for 11 plus years now and we're not stopping anytime soon. We're so grateful that the warnings of these harms are finally going mainstream after all of these years. And at the end of the day, do we want these tech companies to be held accountable for the harms their platforms are causing? Yes, of course we do. Kids have been harmed and are being harmed and have even died because of what these platforms have exposed them to. But at the end of the day, it starts with families, it starts with parenting, it starts in our homes. And like many other organizations who have been in this fight to save kids, we continue to stand with the pain parents and will continue to do so. So I really am thrilled for our guests today. I think that those listening, especially if you have teenagers, are going to be very encouraged about this and you're going to be hopefully empowered to maybe make some changes no matter where you're at on this journey. Potentially, if you haven't given social media to your kids yet, which we hope you haven't, Screenstrong says 18. Okay. That's what we say. We don't even think 16 is old enough, but maybe you haven't done that yet and you've really been thinking about it. I hope that this will change your mind. Just talking about the road that could be ahead of your child when you give this to them. And those of you that Maybe are in the middle of your child having some sort of addiction to social media or video games or just technology. I really hope you're going to walk away today with some great empowering moves for your family. So let's get started. Today's guest is versed on this topic of social media addiction and all addictions when it comes to tech. In fact, he's worked with young people who are addicted to technology and having to withdraw on it. So he has a lot to give us today. So I'm so excited. So let's welcome Kellen Smythe to the podcast.
- [03:03]
B
Thank you, Mandy. It's lovely to meet you. Thanks for having me on here.
- [03:07]
A
Yes, you're welcome. So you work with Pacific Quest, so I think let's start out first. I always like my guests to just kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do and what Pacific Quest is.
- [03:20]
B
Yeah. So my background is in education, specifically in mathematics. I went to school for applied mathematics, studied computational fluid dynamics. Really put myself on a track to just be one of those boring math teachers at the front of the class, and actually taught math for a number of years at a college, about 10 years. And through that, ended up running into a number of young adults. And this is right around the early 2000s, running into a lot of young adults who were just really struggling to make it work in school. And through that, got into mentoring, coaching, and eventually into this level of care that I work now, which is residential treatment. So Pacific Quest is a residential treatment facility on the big Island, Hawaii, and we focus on working with youth who experience a great deal of internalized distress, depression, anxiety. Occasionally those are born out of trauma or other kind of neurological concerns. But in all of those cases, screen addiction, screen time, social media, is an accelerant to their distress. And so we're pretty familiar with this. Outside of that work, I do a lot of being a dad. So I've got two kids and try to do my best to manage their screen time as well and explore the world outside of the synthetic universe that we've created for them.
- [04:41]
A
Yes. Oh, that's awesome. Well, I'm excited to talk more about your work, and before we started recording, I was asking you, how many of these residential treatment centers are there that actually are dealing with screen addiction? Are there many out there?
- [04:56]
B
That's a great question. So there are a number of great treatment resources out there, and it might be helpful just to kind of outline a little bit of what the different types of treatment resources are that are available to Folks, would that be interesting?
- [05:09]
A
Yeah, well, let's. Okay, before we start there, why don't. Let's define addiction. Like, what does this look like when someone is addicted to something, whether it be a substance, whether it be screens or wherever you want to take that. Let's just kind of talk about what that looks like first.
- [05:21]
B
Yeah. So there's various ways that folks define addiction. Typically, I think most of us think of addiction as a substance dependency. Right. And we're most familiar with that. That's what's sort of most discussed around the dining room table there. What is also part of addiction, though, is what's called a process addiction. And that's where we're not introducing an outside substance into the body that creates or inhibits or interferes with our nurt transmitters, but we're introducing a process, a behavioral process, which in large part activates all the same parts of the brain and has all the same kind of outcomes. So when we think about screen addiction, technology addiction, gaming addiction, those things, what we're talking about is a process addiction, a pattern of behavior that, in this case, adolescent or a young adult has been engaged in that is creating those same kind of neurotransmitter patterns. And as we talk about, and I'm not a neuroscientist, but as we talk about in neuroscience, what wires together, what fires together, wires together.
- [06:25]
A
Right.
- [06:25]
B
So as. As these kids are kind of experiencing this process of using technology to soothe their distress, they are. They are activating all of those same neuron pathways that lead to a substance dependency, and those same connections are being formed. So when someone is removed from those, we see a lot of the same symptoms that someone would experience if they were withdrawing from a substance as well.
- [06:50]
A
And this is why I think parents are very scared to take it away because of the withdrawals that we get.
- [06:58]
B
Absolutely. I mean, I think. And I think what makes that just a bit more insidious is that if your child, gosh for bed, they are addicted to a substance. Heroin, opiates, benzos, those kinds of things. There is an imminent health risk that. That I think compels us to just take immediate action. Right. It's. It's terrifying. It's scary in the moment. There's also behaviors outside of that substance dependency that are also very high risk for their. Their imminent safety. And so I think in some ways, it might be easier to decide, I need to do something about it right away. Screen addiction is a bit more insidious in that it's. It's not an imminent threat to their, their well being. Right. They're safe, they're inside, they're on a screen. I can see them. Right. In a lot of cases, we might even have a decent relationship as long as I'm not pushing back too much around that screen. But unfortunately, again, we're still activating those same pathways. And I would add that, unfortunately, because of that sort of low level concern that most families have around this, it means that pattern draws out for much longer and that makes it much more difficult to unwind.
- [08:06]
A
Oh, wow. You just painted such a picture that I relate to from when our kids had screens. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so what are some warning signs of addiction? Like just kind of setting this up for then when we talk about withdrawing and all of that. So what does addiction look like in teens are.
- [08:23]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, everyone tells you like, oh, normal teen behavior. Right. Normal teen screen time. I see that a lot of times in applications when we talk about a client who's potentially coming to Pacific Quest. We'll see, you know, typical teen screen time. I don't really, I don't. I think this might be the only generation that has any, quote, typical screen time. Right. For most of human existence, that was. The answer was zero. So this is sort of new. And we're trying to understand where are those limits in which we've kind of tipped into, hey, we need to do something about it. There's a few kind of indicators for me. So one big one is to just remind ourselves that teens, especially right there, are in this time of needing to take really important developmental risks, meaning that they're kind of putting themselves out in these highly pro social ways, meeting new people, trying new things, taking on new challenges and doing so sometimes, you know, at the expense of their parents worry. Right. Those little like, oh my goodness, are they going to be okay? Yeah. If we're not seeing our teen take on those challenges, take on those risks, engage in those highly pro social activities and screen time is increasing or is correlated to that, that's a big red flag. So, you know, teens using screens, it's ubiquitous in schools. It's part of how they connect with each other. Those are all, you know, definitely part of what I would expect for most teens. But when that starts to erode into the time and space and the energy that should be focused on those pro social engagements, that's when I would say, we've got a concern there.
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A
Right.
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B
I'm sorry, go ahead.
- [10:02]
A
No, I was just. And I was thinking to piggyback on that, I'm going. But Our teens really don't stand a chance to be able to balance that. So we, you know, we go, well, it's normal as long as they're not doing X, Y, Z, but they're going to do XYZ because that's how the product was created as we talked about
- [10:17]
B
the beginning, you know, and that's, that's exactly it, right? So I think there's what is often lost, right, is that the social media companies, the, the organizations that make this tech, they're not doing it out of the kindness of their heart, right? I mean, they're, they're doing this because they have monetized our children's attention, which essentially is their childhood, right? So when we see them being successful with that, with our own teens, we should be worried, we should be worried that they're not only. There's an exposure cost, right, that kids are exposed to content that is in some ways dangerous, in some ways can formulate quite a bit of anxiety and this kind of existential dread that they're being bathed in. And that's certainly worrisome. We can talk about a lot of that. But I think from an assessment standpoint of risk, I think one of the things gets forgotten is that opportunity cost. Every one of those moments throughout childhood and leading into young adulthood are so crucial. There are these little windows where kids get to develop insights and skills and a sense of self worth and how they orient to the world around them, encounter challenges, overcome them, and develop kind of a sense of identity as a result of all that. And so when they're online, they're just not experiencing those things. And there's not a way to replicate that other than through kind of hands on experiences. The next red flag that I'm acutely aware of is this idea that as we kind of move down the continuum of a process addiction, we start to see that the screen time or the, the technological connection is my adaptive skill, meaning that I'm not able to regulate without a screen present. I experience a significant increase in my distress if I'm not able to access those screens. And that's definitely a big red flag. And that can start very early, right? And when we see this, and this is, this is a no judgment zone here when it comes to like parenting. I've, you know, we all use tools to different degrees. But you know, when, when we're kids are bored at the dinner table or you know, out at a restaurant and those things and we're having to use screens to regulate them, meaning that their behaviors, you know, start to explode if I'm not giving them those things. That would be a big concern as well. Because in some ways that that kind of big emotion attached with the distress of being bored is really, really important so they can learn how to hold it in a new way. And so when we see screens kind of filling that gap, then we're sort of denying our kids this opportunity to develop that resiliency. And that's again, I would say that's a big red flag from a concern standpoint.
- [13:03]
A
Wow, okay. What about with video games? I want to touch on that a little bit. I mean, a lot of, I think social media, we all talk about that a lot. But with video games, you know, Screenstrong talks about video games a lot. And anymore, video games are very much like social media. But what have you seen also video game addiction, what that looks like?
- [13:21]
B
Yeah, I mean, I would say from a process addiction standpoint, this is what's so interesting, right, is that the companies have figured out that teens are in this really pro social development stage of their life. They are seeking out connection. And so it's no mistake that a lot of the most popular video games are going to be social in nature, where they have teams, squads, groups, clans, all those things they create. I mean, they're literally tapping into that kind of tribalism that we are all attuned to. And that obviously has a way of really compelling kids to get a part of it. And I hear families a lot of times talk to me about how, how those online relationships they have with their partners in a game are so essential. I mean, they in some cases become their only friendships. What is concerning about that is not that they have friends that they've met online or they have a common interest or even that they're playing a video game, those aren't, you know, necessarily bad in isolation. What is concerning, however, is that it has a way of sort of replacing the very important kind of high cost relationships that we ultimately depend on in life moving forward with these kind of low cost relationships. And Jonathan Hyatt talks about this a lot, the author of the Anxious Generation, in that if you are a part of a community where the cost of entry is just show up on time and be a part of this team and perform well in this technological space, you're very easily replaceable, you're just a few clicks away, or if you say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, like you could just be gone and no one would notice. And that breeds quite a bit of anxiety. Like if I know that the people I count on most in life might not miss me at all. Like, I might not be missed if I'm not here. I think that that can foster quite a bit of anxiety, depression. We see that in our teens, right. Where their, their online relationships are so tenuous. They just need to be there. And it's like the most extreme version of fomo. Right. If I'm not there, then they're not, they're, you know, that, that, that, that needing to, I can't miss out because I won't be a part of the team is so important.
- [15:30]
A
Yeah.
- [15:32]
B
We need our teens to also develop high cost relationships. And that's where, you know, things like small sports and community exercises and the things that have kids really kind of working together, where they have to earn their way into a group by showing up, putting in the hard work, where if they miss a practice, their buddies calling them up and saying, hey, where were you? Like that. That kind of stuff is so essential and that anchors kids in a sense of belonging and purpose that video games just can't replicate. And so I'd say that to me, beyond the content, we can talk about the violence and all the things that go on within video games. But to me, it's that sense that, that they're missing out on those opportunities to develop really high cost relationships that are going to last with them for the rest of their lives.
- [16:16]
A
Yeah. And we talk about, when we talk to parents and to the kids, we're really trying to explain them. It's a false sense of belonging. Like it's fulfilling this need that we all have to belong. But it's really this false sense of security and belonging that they're getting. Because we hear that a lot from parents. Like we can't take away Roblox or we can't take away Fortnite or whatever it is, you know, because that's where they're from. And it's like. But it's really a false sense. And I like how you just put that, you know, it's. They could just not show up and not even be missed. Like when I think about my son or my, if my kid was in video games doing that, that made me feel bad for him, I'd be like, oh, well, then we don't want to be in there. We don't want to be in there.
- [16:50]
B
Yeah, that's the sad part, I think, is that we end up, we deny them this chance of really building those relationships that are. I mean, I have a couple of good friends that I made when I was a Teenager and especially boys. I think, you know, we make a handful of those friends when we're teens and then they're kind of with you forever. And those are formed out of, I think if we look back on all of those experiences where we, you know, any of our kind of close relationships over time, they're formed through experience. People we meet at camp or we played sports with, or we, you know, went to school with and tried, you know, did different things. Those are the things that really kind of anchor folks in deep relationships. And unfortunately, video games just don't create that depth. They synthesize it. Right. There's the sense of connection, but it's just not the depth of it that we really depend on as human beings.
- [17:40]
A
And really same with social media, same with texting. That's the only way your child's communicating with their so called friends is through their online world. It's just not going to provide the same. I love that, the high cost relationship that we need to have. So, okay, so now let's go into say a parent's listening, they're like, okay, this is describing my child. You know, they are connected to their phone all day. I can't get them off the video game. I'm worried. You know, what are the different levels of care? Now let's go through those different levels of care that you've experienced to help teenagers.
- [18:12]
B
Yeah. So I mean, I just stress it, you know, I really hope that, you know, you don't need to have that kind of intervention. Right. That you can set appropriate, attuned expectations and boundaries within the home, provide education, have open dialogue, model good screen, use behavior. All of those things I think would be my hope for myself and for most families. And sometimes we can do all of that and we run into the scenario where there is a giant multinational company really trying to capture our kids attention and they're winning. And that's very concerning. So what are the resources that are out there? I think the first kind of layer, and this is where I started, is in the coaching and mentoring. And there's a lot of great, especially in the young adult space, there's a lot of great coaching and mentoring resources that really focus on this kind of action oriented thing. A lot of times those coaches will get out, we'll go surfing, they'll go hiking, they'll just get kids moving. And it's a great way to kind of just shake loose from that paradigm of I'm stuck inside on the screen, the next layer. And now just as an awareness piece, coaching, mentoring, there are some certifications, but there's not really a licensing process for that. So it's especially important to be really attuned to safety. Make sure you're looking at background checks, make sure you're, you know, got a good sense of who these folks are, because it's just not kind of the oversight that you would see in the next layers of care, which would be outpatient, outpatient resources, psychiatry therapy, those things are. Can be really great resources. Generally, those are the kind of thing where you go, you meet with a therapist once a week, you meet with a psychiatrist to look at medications, medication management. A few things to keep in mind here. So you want to. While there is licensing, of course, for therapists and for psychiatrists, you do want to make sure that those folks have number one experience specifically with kids or adolescents or the age of your child, and specifically around technology or process addictions, that's going to be an important thing. The other thing I would say is I don't know if you guys have any ad support from virtual therapy resources, But I don't believe that virtual therapy is a great resource for folks, especially kids who are struggling with technological addiction. It's so compelling because, like, well, they're already on their screen. I can get them to that appointment. It just does not foster the kind of meaningful connection that you could get if you had a really, you know, a robust relationship with a therapist in person. So I would say specifically to this issue, I would avoid outpatient virtual therapy connections.
- [20:47]
A
And so let me stop you on this one really quick side question. And I was saying this to you before we got on as well. Like, a lot of times we hear from families that, you know, they've kind of run into a dead end with their therapists because they're not versed on this technology piece of addiction. So you use the term process addictions, which I don't know that I've heard that before, and I love it because it just explains it in a way that's not substance addiction, it's process addiction. So would that be like a key word? If you're calling a therapist and say, hey, do you specialize in process addictions? Would that be something to ask?
- [21:18]
B
Yep. Yeah, I think that would be. That would be an important thing you want to know. Someone should know that if they're a qualified therapist who works in this space, they would be able to identify, you know, that the technology addiction is a process addiction. And, you know, as we talked about earlier, that it's activating a lot of the same pathways that a substance dependency does.
- [21:37]
A
Okay.
- [21:38]
B
All right, go on. Yeah, it's great. It's a great question. So, you know, outpatient therapy is really, really fantastic for a lot of folks, and it works wonderfully. And it's a. It's a pretty light touch, meaning that you got 50 or so minutes a week most of the time to kind of have this sense of connection and maybe orientation. I'd say it's really valuable for kids who are what we would call post contemplative. So post contemplative means I get that things aren't working, and I get that I have something to do with that. Right. So I just feel like I'm really kind of feeling isolated. I'm going to screens as a way of coping, and I'd like to change that. So that's post contemplative. Pre contemplative is someone where they don't really think anything's wrong. I'm doing normal teen stuff. It's your problem, mom. I don't know why you have such an issue with me being online. And if you just get off my back about me having this, you know, this time I think we'd probably all be fine. That would be what we called pretty pre contemplative outpatient therapy. And the next two that we talk about here are not especially effective for folks who are pre contemplative. And it's just because you don't really have the time or the space to unwind some of those patterns in a. In an. In a meaningful way. If you got 50 minutes out of the whole week to have that conversation in an honest way, it's very difficult to unwind that kind of perspective. On the next layer, we have what's called an intensive outpatient. And this is usually held at a facility you go for a few hours a day. They usually will have groups with other participants, and you'll have also have some individual time throughout the week. And so that's usually a Monday through Friday, a few hours, usually after school. And it's just intensive in that you're seeing those therapists usually every day for a short period of time, usually about six to eight weeks is what we see. Some outpatient, some intensive outpatient programs are really specialized, and they really focus on anxiety or screen addiction or some of those things. And there's ranges of those kinds of programs across the country. Again, though, I'd say for folks who are pre contemplative, they're just not really kind of seeing where the ride's breaking down or that it is, I'd say, limited success in this space. And that's also true for the next layer of care, which is what's called partial hospitalization program. And that's where you're spending the vast majority of the day. They could call us a php. You're spending the vast majority of the day, usually Monday through Friday still in group sessions, individual sessions and really. And there's often psychiatry that can be part of that or at least can be intermixed in there, but that's just a higher, it's like a IOP plus basically you sleep, come home every night, you sleep in your own bed, you have all those things. And that in itself, itself is part of the problem. Right. So I, I know a number of clients who will go into a PHP program. And again, if you're pre contemplative and you're not really sure what the problem is, you go, you sit in your groups for the day and then you come home and you get on your screen and you go right back into the same patterns and it's just very difficult to unwind. So I'd say those are things to just be considered of. You have a kid who's like, I don't like how this is going and I need to change it. These can be really great resources, but if not, it's worth looking at kind of that next stage which is where we fall in. So we're at what's called a residential treatment. RTC is how it's called often. And the residential part is you come and live with us. Residential treatment programs tend to be somewhere between 30 to 90 days in most cases, most of which are going to be around 30 to 45 days. And that number is based 100% off of how much insurance will pay for. So there are, I wish it were different but unfortunately residential treatment is very expensive. It costs a lot to have the kind of infrastructure and resources to provide that kind of care to kids. And so leveraging insurance is a great, a great way to make that approachable for most families, however, insurance tends to pay for residential treatment up till about that, that 30 to 45 day mark. Our experience is that just isn't enough time to really get to the bottom of these patterns once they reach that level of need. And so we're much closer to the 90 days in terms of our length of stay. There are some programs out there that are even longer, there are some that are even shorter, but most residential placements are going to have that kind of, you know, 30 to 90 day length of stay again, that would be where you come and you live with the treatment providers. This is where you'll see a great deal of specialization or you should at least there should be programs that really focus on certain types of behavioral presentation. They should have either a lot of experience around a substance dependency or trauma or various different kind of backgrounds. And you'll see that in having the containment around. In our case, we don't allow our clients to have technology while they're here. No smartphones, no access to the Internet other than their video calls with family. It's important to create that containment to help provide the perspective and ultimately move from pre contemplative into that post contemplative space. Okay. Beyond residential care is what we is hospitalization or acute stabilization. And this is someone who's experiencing a pretty profound mental health crisis. They may be experiencing suicidal ideation or even actions. They might be experiencing a more profound kind of expression in mental health disorder. Stress. They're unable to keep themselves safe. They can't keep their, you know, their. Those around them safe. Those are meant to be very short term in nature. Usually just a few days, maybe a week or two just to ensure safety. They do not. I want to be super clear about this hospitalization, acute stabilization and even the kind of assessment space there. They. They're not really providing treatment. They're really just trying to provide safety. And that's. It's important sometimes for folks when they really need that. And I would just say this. I think if you're unfortunately one of those families who've had to leverage and get to the place of doing hospitalization, I think you have to work really hard to convince me that going down to. If we talk about that as a continuum of care, you'd have to work really hard to convince me that we could go from hospitalization, that very high level of need, all the way down to outpatient. Because we're saying that, you know, that huge gap is not important. I just don't believe that. I just think that you need more time to really understand how do we get to a place where we need to be in a hospital? Hopefully you don't have to run into that scenario. Hopefully you can leverage some of these other resources and good boundaries to get into that. But within each of those layers, there's lots of specialization, lots of great resources and, and I think that across the country there's plenty of good options for families.
- [28:34]
A
Right. So we have a. I don't know if you know this, but ScreenStrong offers a 30 day reset that Melanie, our founder, wrote. And it's available for free now on our website. It used to come with our curriculum, but now we offer it to anybody. Is 30 days a good place to start? And you know, we suggest all screens go away during that 30 days because how do you balance something that's addictive? Just like if you were addicted to heroin, you would just allow a little bit of heroin each day. You have to get rid of it completely to detox your body. So what would you say is the. Because we always tell parents by, by 30 days you're going to start to see the differences, but you're going to go through withdrawal, which I want to talk about here in a second. You're going to go through some hard times for a couple of weeks, but you're going to start to see your child come back to you. And I experience this with my own kids. It's a beautiful thing.
- [29:20]
B
Yeah.
- [29:20]
A
So what's kind of the mat. Is there a magic number there to be to get detoxed from?
- [29:25]
B
Oh, goodness, that's a super good question. I'm a believer. And this comes kind of out of my, my background in martial arts. I'm a believer in this concept of win or learn. Okay. So, you know, so first off, I think that's a great idea. I think 30 days of kind of like a just a tech detox reset. I'm sure that there's also like elements of like rebuilding some of those pro social connections within the family and community. All those things. I love that because you're either going to win in the sense that like, hey, this was awesome. We all really found our way and built better understanding of what needs to be going on in our home. And we've learned a lot about each other and we feel more oriented and there's all those wonderful outcomes. That's the win side of it, which is awesome. The learn side would come when that wasn't enough or we really struggled through that. I mean, we found ourselves just fighting a battle every day to get to that 30 day mark. That would be a learn, which tells us, hey, maybe we need something different. Right. And so I would not say that there is a prescribed length to stay, like prescribed length of time in which you need to detox from technologies to get better. Right. Or to be in recovery. I think it's more about what do we learn in the process of not having technology. What does that bring into the light? Does that make sense?
- [30:42]
A
Yes, it does. So, okay, so let's talk about what do we see both Neurologically, emotionally, when a teenager, when we finally pry the iPad out of our kid's hand or we tell our teenager, guess what, you're not gonna have a phone for the next 30 days. Like, what are we going to see? I mean. Cause you're seeing it on a high level. Like these are addicted kids coming in and they're very addicted. So you're seeing this in this environment that's safe for them to detox. But what's just the average parent gonna see as well? And maybe it's all the same thing, but what are we going to see those first 72 hours or whatever after we take away this addictive technology?
- [31:16]
B
You know, I would say it starts beforehand. And this is the part that's interesting to me is the amount of anxiety that families, parents, very high functioning, you know, families. The amount of anxiety we feel about the idea of telling our kids, you're not going to have your phone for a bit. I know our program, we, we require that families let inform their children that they're coming to PQ at least if we, a few days before they come and they're given a chance to really kind of talk to us and learn about the experience. Overwhelmingly, the highest, the most common concern that kids and families have is this idea that I'm not going to have access to my phone, I'm not going to have access to technology. That is the biggest barrier, I would say. And so from a behavior standpoint, I think before even having the technology taken away, it's that sense of like it's going to be taken away and what does that mean for my relationship with my kid? Are they going to hate me forever? Their child is already in a panic about this. I can't live without my phone. I just, these are my people. This is how I self soothe. I need to listen to music, I need to watch shows when I go to bed, all of those, it's just like a part of our whole life and we're asking to pull that out. And even before they get here, their anxiety spikes through the roof. Once they do get here and we do take the phone away. We work really hard to get them engaged in some pro social experiences right away. Get them a peer mentor. We try to get. Our program is based on the ocean, so get out on paddle boards.
- [32:40]
A
I mean, you're in Hawaii. Is that where this is at? Hawaii?
- [32:42]
B
That's right. Yeah, we're in the big island of Hawaii. I like to say it doesn't suck and it's a, it's a, it's a. It's a great place to be distracted by nature if you're feeling the. The pangs of missing technology. So really we try to get them engaged in a lot of that stuff as much as we can, as quickly as we can. But some of those same symptoms we would expect to see from withdrawals of a substance are also present. They're pretty grumpy. They're just like, just generally a little surly, a little extra surly. Poor sleep. Most all of our kids are using technology as part of their bedtime routine. It's in their beds with them, watching shows, listening to things scrolling. So when they don't have that, they just don't have the kind of experience of just settling their brain without technology. So we see some poor sleep. We see changes in their. In their kind of their appetite, their intake. Sometimes that increase in anxiety reduces their appetite. Sometimes the increase in boredom increases their appetite. But they're just. They're literally. Their biology just kind of gets off. And then my favorite. And it's the thing we probably all have done a little bit, like when you're leaving the house and you'd, like, are checking your pants a little bit, you're like, oh, that's my phone. That we call it, like phantom phone syndrome. Right. But you're just like. There's like, is that. Was that me? And you're like tapping yourself, like, grabbing like, was that mine? And there's no phone there. So we're just, you know, we're just touching pockets. But I'd say for the most part, within a week or two, most of that stuff abates and what's left is boredom.
- [34:23]
A
Yeah.
- [34:23]
B
And a little bit of sadness, I would say, if I'm being honest. I think it's. It's. It's a meaningful. Just like on the absence in their life that has been filled. You know, they haven't gone to the restroom without a phone. They haven't gone to bed without a phone in a while. They haven't even spent other time with other teens without a phone. Right. So all of that, I think, leaves a big gap of boredom, which we love, because boredom is sort of the. The genesis of creativity and inspiration. And we're, you know, we get to fill that in with some fun stuff.
- [34:50]
A
Stuff.
- [34:50]
B
But those are, Those are pretty common things we see.
- [34:53]
A
Okay, so what. When do you see this turning point, this emotional turning point that happens in their recovery? Like, yeah, they start to stabilize. They start feeling that boredom, and then what kind of shifts start happening?
- [35:04]
B
Yeah, this is the Good news, right? So unlike grown ups, right. Kids brains are super plastic and they are crazy adaptive. And when you put them in an environment, generally speaking, they are very quick to adapt to it. And we put them in an environment where they're with other teens who are also bored, don't have their phones, right. And they're, they're every day doing something together. They're gardening, they're going paddle boarding, they're going swimming and snorkeling, they're going to the nature trails on the big island, there's the volcanoes national park, there's baby goat farms, there's all this fun stuff we do. We're filling that need in a way they probably haven't. That need for a pro social engagement and experience a hands on thing in a way that they probably haven't experienced in a long time. Maybe never. Right? And it feels wonderful. You feel great. We also really focus on nutrition, sleep, hygiene. We're getting them on a regular, you know, diet and sleep routine. We're doing exercise every day. So physiologically in parallel, they're also experiencing a lot of gains. And I would say for most of our clients, by week three to six is where we'll really start to see them kind of like feel the benefit of that. They still might be a little surly, they might want their phones back, they might have, you know, opinions about rules and whatnot, and that's okay. But we do start to see them really get more engaged in the experience, feel the benefit of, you know, taking a break from technology about that point.
- [36:37]
A
Wow, that's. And that's pretty right on with what we would say too with our detox and what I experienced as a mom back in 2020, doing a 30 day, you know, reset detox. I forget we called it at the time doing that for the first time. I did. It was about the three week mark that I started. I was like, oh my gosh, here my kids, they're back. Like I didn't know where they went. And this is so exciting. So that's great. Okay, so what should parents expect at home? Like so talk just practical things. You know, they're not sending their child to a treatment center at this point, but they want to get a. And hopefully never. But they want to get ahold of this. They recognize there's a problem. You know, what should parents expect at home if they. Of course we also coach them on preparing. There's some major preparation that takes place sitting down with your family saying, hey, we're gonna do this 30 day challenge together. It's gonna be fun. You know, you keep it as a positive thing. It's a punishment. It's kind of an experiment as a family. Are we going to win? Are we going to learn, you know, that type of thing? What should parents expect in the home when taking away the screens for an amount of time? And how do they respond to that kind of resistance they're going to get from their kids?
- [37:41]
B
Yeah. So I would say if you are encountering resistance around a break from technology that is outsized and I mean that in the like. And this depends on your, on the age of your child. Okay. So when you tell a five year old it's time to turn the TV off. I expect a little bit of a tantrum.
- [38:03]
A
Right.
- [38:03]
B
I expect at least 5, 10 minutes of some pouting and can I watch this? And I want some more super kitties. Right. That is developmentally appropriate. When I tell a teenager, hey, we're going to do this challenge, I expect, you know, some surliness. I'm. Oh man, really, dude? Why do I have to do this? My sister's got the bigger problem. Problem, like that's fine.
- [38:23]
A
Absolutely. That's what I expect.
- [38:25]
B
Right. So that's developmentally appropriate. Exactly. Those are really appropriate developmental stages. So you want a little surliness from the teenager, maybe a little curiosity, some deflection, like, you know, negotiating all those things. Those are really developmentally appropriate. If you see behaviors in a teenager that look a lot like your five year old, the big tantrum, the falling on the floor, kicking their feet and the, the bigger behaviors. Right. That is a sign maybe we need something different and we should get curious about some of these other resources that we talked about. So I would say it's again, it's the idea of like, win or learn. We're going to win in the sense that we're all going to benefit from this break, but we're also going to learn what is the true nature of this issue. Is it something that's like, oh, you know what, I don't have too much to worry about. We all have this great experience together. We learned some new things, set some new boundaries. We learned a little bit about kind of what the needs are and what was missing, or did we see something that was really telling in terms of how much technology has taken over our family and our child's attention? So I would say you're going to learn a lot and it's going to look different for every kid. My guess is you'd probably see some of the same things that we see Here, but hopefully at a lower level. Right. I would expect some increased grumpiness and more boredom, maybe a little disruption in sleep, maybe a little change in appetite one way or another. Those would be things I tend to expect. But it should be at a low level, and it should be the kind of thing you can identify and talk about as part of the learning process.
- [39:57]
A
Okay, that was all wonderful. What are some ideas? And you kind of mentioned what you all do in Hawaii, but what are some options for families during that time? If they say, we're going to take this break for 30 days, we're really big on replacing that scrap screen time with something. What are some great things for the brain to help in this process?
- [40:15]
B
Oh, man. So, you know, I mean, we're. We're really big on this concept of experiences and relationship. And that's just the. I have never met an anxious teen that I could talk out of being anxious. I've never met a kid who experiences a lot of shame or isolation or depression that you can. You can trick them out of feeling that way.
- [40:37]
A
Right.
- [40:38]
B
The only thing that dissolves shame and these kind of patterns of internalized distress is experiences in relationship, meaning that we're doing things in connection. And that can be a connection with nature. That could be, you know, someone in nature on their own, really kind of appreciating the beauty of a space and feeling connected to it. But most of the time, it looks like us doing things with our family, with our loved ones, with those. Those people that are important in our lives. And so what I would say is don't just sit around the couch and, you know, stare. Stare at the blank wall. Right. I would say do things together. And, you know, I'm a big believer in nature. If there's ways to get yourself and your family in nature in approachable ways, you don't need to go backpacking and survive in the woods. You don't need to go hike a huge mountain. You can just go to a park. You can just sit there and read a book and, you know, in the sun, or if you're in the. In the northeast right now, just dig an igloo or something like that. But no, I mean, truly, I think it is really about doing things together. That can be board night, board game nights. That can be all of those things. Right. But I'm. I really think doing things together in nature is probably one of the most powerful ways to rekindle those connections and that sense of belonging. And again, it's diagnostic. If you're encountering a tremendous Amount of resistance for, you know, by doing one of those things. That's really helpful to understand kind of where we are in this continuum of how much technology has crept into our life.
- [42:09]
A
Right. Okay. Well, this has just been very good. I think our audience is going to love this episode. I have. So you just had a lot of great thoughts and just really explaining it in a way that we can understand about this addiction and how we can get our kids out of it. You know, I was talking to somebody earlier today, too, and we were discussing how kids really want to be rescued from this. They don't want to be addicted to something like, what a terrible feeling. They don't want to be fighting with themselves and their emotions. And, you know, they want our help. And we are the adults. And so this kind of education is helpful to help us understand how the brain is responding to this. These process addictions. I'm going to use that now. I love that. So do you have any further. Just one last thing you could say to encourage parents on this journey and also where they can find you and more information about Pacific Quest Coast. What is it? Sorry.
- [43:02]
B
No, it's a great question. So I guess I would leave with this kind of. This little bit more esoteric, but it's this idea that I hear often from families, and their kids are in distress. Their families are in distress. They see the sort of pain that their kid is experiencing. And I ask families a lot of times, what do they want to get out of their time with us? We are asking them a lot. You know, send your child away to a bunch of strangers, and often at great expense. And so I hear a lot of times I want my kid to feel happy.
- [43:27]
A
Right.
- [43:28]
B
I just want my kids to be happy. And I would. I would encourage us to reframe that a little bit. I would want. If I were in that position, knowing what I know now, I would want my kids to have the capacity for joy. I want them to be able to feel joy. And joy is so much more than just this kind of fleeting neurological experience of happiness. Like, happiness is like, I watch my favorite show or my team one or something. Like, it's, oh, cool. Happy. Joy is the sense of, like, really feeling connected and having a meaningful experience in life where you're. You feel belonging. And if I look back at my life, I mean, obviously the birth of my kids is a huge one. You know, finding my partner, those. Those. Those moments of joy are really about connection. And so, unfortunately, this is the. This is the painful part of all that. Joy can only Occur in the absence that suffering creates a little bit discomfort. Right. And so what I would hope for my kids and what I would hope for your kids. Right. Is that we can leave room for challenge, discomfort, and even a little bit of suffering sometimes. Not to say that we have to contrive ways for our kids to be miserable.
- [44:34]
A
Right.
- [44:35]
B
But to leave room for that so that they can experience joy. Right. Because if we don't, then there isn't this opportunity for them to feel the wonderful aspects of being part of the world and having meaning and having purpose and feeling like they have a reason to get up every morning. Right. And yeah, that would be my hope for folks, is to just open their mind up to that. That broader sense of what it means to experience joy.
- [45:02]
A
Oh, I love that. That was beautiful. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on today. And actually, you guys contacted us, which I am really grateful. So thank you so much for what you shared today.
- [45:11]
B
Oh, of course. Thank you so much for having me, Mandy. And I appreciate it.
- [45:15]
A
And where can people find information about Pacific Quest?
- [45:19]
B
Yeah. So we're@PacificQuest.org O R G and folks are always welcome to reach out to me directly. I'm pretty sure there's like only one Kellen Smythe. Well, there's two. One of which is a hairdresser in Australia, and the other one is me.
- [45:35]
A
Okay.
- [45:36]
B
So feel free to look us up.
- [45:40]
A
Okay. Well, thank you so much. Thank you all for listening today. And thank you, Kellen, for coming on the show and sharing this very amazing information with us about addiction. But then also the hope about what withdrawal looks like and what recovery looks like. We really appreciate it. If you want to educate your kids on brain science of how toxic technology like social media and video games harm them, you can find our kids brains and screens curriculum for students. We also have for parents on our website, screenstrong.org store. It's a great way to just all start speaking the same language and really learning together about what builds a healthy brain that's not a screen. And all the awesome things you can do as a family. We also have a great community called Screenstrong Connect that I wanted to invite you to be a part of that is off social media. And it's really simple to join for free by joining@screenstrong.org and in that group are just families. And our ambassadors that are certified through our through Screenstrong are in there to support you. But it's a great place to ask your questions and kind of get that support that you need. We are on Facebook and Instagram just to see our content, but if you want to connect with us, go on screenstrong Connect. We would love if you would subscribe to this podcast and share this episode. So remember, we've got your back and we are here to help you remove the screen conflicts from your home. So until next time, stand up for your kids, stand out from the crowd, and stay strong.