Beach Camping and a Control Freak | #138

Summary

Secondhand Therapy: "Beach Camping and a Control Freak" | Episode #138

Podcast: Secondhand Therapy
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone
Date: July 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy dives into two intertwined topics: Louie's recent return to camping and Michael’s ongoing wrestle with control and anxiety. With the usual candid humor, banter, and vulnerability, Louie and Michael explore how slowing down and being present can impact personal growth, and why giving up control is so damn hard—especially for those with anxious minds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Beach Camping: Louie’s Newfound Presence

• First time camping as an adult:

  • Louie admits to being only a once-in-childhood camper, yet decided to try beach camping to experiment with living slower and more intentionally.
  • "In this new phase of my life where I am trying to be more...and trying to live a much slower life and a more present life—Is camping for me? So I went camping. I think it's for me." (Lou, 13:31)

• Camping as Reconnection with Simplicity:

  • Louie describes the joy of waking with the sun, boiling water for coffee, rotating meals among friends, and simply being outside.
  • "You could do as much or as little as you want. You wake up...Go lay down, go to bed...Wake up, boil a kettle. I just like it, dude." (Lou, 14:10)

• Stillness and Self-Forgetfulness:

  • The trip becomes a mirrorless retreat—Lou realizes he hasn't seen his reflection in four days, highlighting societal obsessions with appearance.
  • "I washed my hands and I look up and see myself in the mirror. And I realized I hadn't seen myself in like four or five days...I hadn't even thought about what I looked like, my appearance, anything. The whole time I was there. Didn't. It didn't even cross my mind." (Lou, 21:21)

• Thought Experiment:

  • Lou discusses removing mirrors for 30 days to observe changes in self-worth and emotional state.
  • "We're seeing ourselves too much...I'm taking mirrors out of the house." (Lou, 21:49)

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The Mirror Conversation: Appearance, Validation, and Social Pressure

• Michael’s Reluctance to Ditch Mirrors:

  • Michael is candid about his struggle with appearance, admitting he wants to care less but can’t let go of checking himself before heading out.
  • "Can I go 30 days out of the mirror? My first thought is like, I gotta see, I gotta look before I leave the house." (Michael, 24:18)

• Societal and Familial Roots:

  • Michael acknowledges that family dynamics and societal expectations make it hard to stop worrying about impression management.
  • "It's all trappings of societal pressure and...that's always the underlying...I just always chalked it up being just raised around worst case scenario, but it's more than that." (Michael, 24:36 & 60:45)

• Lou Challenges Michael:

  • Lou gently pushes, noting, "All you have to do is not look in the mirror for 30 days and, like, see what happens. You're like, oh, no, no, no, no." (Lou, 27:16)
  • Michael concedes: "I'm not fascinated enough to try it. I worry too much about— I know, I know." (Michael, 25:37)

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Control Freak: Michael’s Relationship with Control and Anxiety

• How Control Manifests:

  • Michael describes how he meticulously plans for every possible scenario—especially regarding social plans, outings, or even simple decisions.
  • "My mind immediately goes to control. It does what it always does. I start thinking about every single step, which is, how far away is this diner? Am I going to get anything to eat? ...Is there parking? Am I going to have to pay for parking?" (Michael, 46:22)

• The Burden of Anticipating Worst-Case Scenarios:

  • This planning is linked to feelings of unsafe vulnerability and anxiety.
  • "In life, I am so vulnerable, like, anything could happen at any time, and I have no control over any of that. And I am very unprepared...So what I've been doing is trying to combat emotion with logic." (Michael, 54:42)

• The Toll on Enjoyment:

  • Rather than enjoying time with friends or being spontaneous, Michael’s brain catalogues risks, logistics, and expectations.
  • "Instead of just being like, I get to go hang out with my friends...I am trying to control everything about the situation instead of just enjoying it." (Michael, 47:22)

• Notable Quote:

  • "[My therapist] said, 'Do you view others like you think they're viewing you?' ...I grew up around gossip. And so of course I think that's what's happening, because that's how my family was. ...I just assume that they are." (Michael, 66:53)

• Empathy and Overcorrection:

  • Michael recognizes that, to avoid judgment, he defaults to excessive empathy—even when it leads to being taken advantage of or neglected himself.
  • "If there is judgment, I fight it with empathy. And then usually it pours over into too much empathy...I end up just being like, yeah, but they're going through a lot...and so I fight it with that. And so, yeah, it washes away and then I end up still hurt." (Michael, 68:30)

• The Root: Need for Safety:

  • Ultimately, Michael links his control obsession to a core need for safety, especially in unpredictable environments, and the discomfort of feeling trapped or stupid for not anticipating problems.
  • "Because what will you think of me if I don't drop you back off?...It goes back into my permanent record...Then next time, you go, hey, don't tell Malone...'cause he couldn't even drop us off." (Michael, 63:02)

---

Insights and Reflections

• Camping as a Microcosm for Letting Go:

  • Lou’s positive camping experience acts as a metaphor for letting go of control and being present, challenging Michael’s tightly-wound internal rulebook.

• Barriers to Change:

  • Despite understanding what would help (less mirror-checking, less planning), Michael admits he finds it too uncomfortable to let go—even if it would ultimately reduce his anxiety.

• Humor as a Safe Space:

  • Banter and self-deprecation remain key for both; even deep conversations are laced with jokes about herpes, pooping pants, and imaginary Patreon stories (the authenticity and comic relief shine throughout).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On new camping adventures:

  • "I had to shit behind a tree... Didn't like that part of it." (Lou, 12:48)
  • "I just did a beach shower. No soap. Smelled like fucking yeti when I got back, dude. Just seaweed and ass, you know?" (Lou, 18:13)

• On forgetting appearance:

  • "There are too many mirrors. We're seeing ourselves too much. I stand by. I gonna die on this hill. I'm taking mirrors out of the house." (Lou, 21:49)

• On control and decision-making:

  • "Do you want to go get a burger or not?" (Ken, recounted by Michael, 56:04)

• On the logic-emotion standoff:

  • "I'm trying to combat emotion with logic. Because emotionally, the lack of control is overwhelming. Logically, it doesn't fucking matter." (Michael, 54:42)

• On being stuck in traffic (the metaphor for control):

  • "I'm not smart enough to get myself out of this...You're sitting here in traffic like a...because you couldn't figure it out." (Michael, 61:18)

---

Important Timestamps

• 09:50 – Lou describes intentionally disconnecting on his camping trip
• 13:31 – Lou’s reflections on becoming a camper
• 21:21 – The impact of not seeing his reflection for days
• 24:18 – Michael’s confessions about mirror habits and self-esteem
• 30:06 – Shifting to the topic of control
• 46:17 – Michael describes how control takes over in everyday situations
• 54:42 – Tying control to the need for safety
• 63:02 – The spiraling thought process of “am I being a bad friend?”
• 68:30 – Michael explains fighting judgment with empathy (and its costs)

---

Closing Thoughts

This episode encapsulates the growing pains of healing and personal evolution: one host attempts literal “stillness” in nature and finds unexpected liberation in being unobserved, while the other is stuck in the entangled web of control, validation, and anxiety-driven logic. Both illustrate the tangle of emotional growth, friendship, and the very modern struggle to simply “be”—with humor, humility, and a willingness to explore the mess.

Key takeaway:
Sometimes, healing means sitting in the sand with dirty feet—and sometimes it means realizing you can’t control much except your willingness to be present.

---

Transcript

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[Michael]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod. Welcome back to secondhand Therapy. We want to remind you.

[Lou]

Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome.

[Michael]

Welcome back. We're not therapists. We're not experts. This is not a substitute for professional advice in any way. In any way. Is that all Did I get off it?

[Lou]

It's not a substitute of therapy and this is not professional advice in any way. And that's. Yeah, you got it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

We're not therapists. We're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

[Michael]

Yeah, I tried to get the order right this time and it threw me off.

[Lou]

And. Yeah, hey, it's all right. We got there. You know, I'm just. I'm sitting here drinking a beer. I Non alcoholic beer.

[Michael]

It's soccer season and I'm not saying

[Lou]

what brand because I will not endorse any company that does not pay us.

[Michael]

That's right.

[Lou]

Do you like my hat? All right, I'm going to be talking about camping. What are you talking about today?

[Michael]

Ooh, control.

[Lou]

Nice. Tell them about Patreon first, though.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, if you want to hear this episode about control and camping with no ads, head on over to Patreon. You get ad free episodes and. And you'll be listening to this episode on a Friday instead of a Monday.

[Lou]

Maybe if you do things on time.

[Michael]

Maybe.

[Lou]

Maybe you listen to this in three weeks.

[Michael]

Yeah. Who knows? But you listen to three days earlier in three weeks. Does that math make math? Man, that was bad. I'm trying to get people to go to Patreon. Also, you missed a completely different intro over on Patreon. That's true. We're talking about other things over there. And you. Unfortunately, we're talking about this here, so you could be hearing like little personal stories and funny antidotes and everything else. Over on Patreon, Michael pooped his Pants. That's not true.

[Lou]

Michael pooped his pants.

[Michael]

That's not true.

[Lou]

If you want that story, it's in the intro on Patreon.

[Michael]

You know what? In the spirit of trying to get people there. Yep. Head on over and listen to that story.

[Lou]

Yep. Anyway, just pants. And it was. He had a bad day. It was after he found out he still has herpes. And then he pooped his pants. And if you want to hear the full story, head on over to Patreon.

[Michael]

Head on over to Patreon. You can also hear.

[Lou]

Can that be a new bit?

[Michael]

No.

[Lou]

And then next week you do one for me that's like, ah, you. You make up this super embarrassing. And I go, yep, go hear about it on Patreon. And we'll just see who can come up with the. The worst stuff.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's fun.

[Lou]

All right, so if you want to look, he had a bad day.

[Michael]

I thought we were done. There's more.

[Lou]

Yeah. So he. He found out he still has herpes. And then he was like, what? It like, okay, I have herpes. I've accepted it. He was lying to his doctor. He hasn't accepted it. But then he's like, my herpes have this. It seems to be an infection. And then his herpes had crabs. Very itchy. And then he was on his way home, his pants.

[Michael]

So nervous and anxious.

[Lou]

Yeah. It wasn't that big of a deal because he drives a 1971 Honda Civic.

[Michael]

I love that Civic.

[Lou]

Yeah. It's got one yellow door. It looks cool.

[Michael]

A yellow door. Belonged to my father. And I keep it in his honor. Yeah.

[Lou]

And then we actually. Sometimes we look up local news from where we grow up. I look up Tucson news, he looks up Marion Ohio news. Someone dug up his mom. Jesus Christ.

[Michael]

And I was sad I didn't get to see her.

[Lou]

Oh, my God. What happened?

[Michael]

You're drunk.

[Lou]

I took it too far.

[Michael]

You're drunk.

[Lou]

There's no alcohol in the beer.

[Michael]

Well, it's in your body.

[Lou]

If you want. What? If you want to hear about that, I mean, the news story specifically, head

[Michael]

on over to Patreon. Oh, my God. And you also get access to a.

[Lou]

Turn into a pinata.

[Michael]

Different episode, different episode, different show altogether called the Other show, which is kind of like what we're doing now. And it's super fun and non therapy related. Also, you get merch discounts. You get advanced notices on merch. You get live show discounts. When we start doing live shows again, you get all kinds of stuff over there. And what else?

[Lou]

If you'd like to buy some merch. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can do so. Secondhandtherapypod.com you can get this hat I'm wearing. You can get a feelings pillow. You can get a lot of shirts, hoodies, all that. We have good merch. We take a lot of pride in having good quality, good quality merchandise. Secondhand therapypod.com if you'd like to support women's resources, women's reproductive resources. Excuse me. Vasectomyfarms.com.

[Michael]

that's right. And you can always contact us with digital mail or physical mail or electronic mail, or you can send us nice little text messages or voice notes. And we shared one actually on the Patreon and show intro.

[Lou]

Every week we share a either a text message or a DM that we're not going to respond to.

[Michael]

That's right, in the Patreon Intro on the Patreon. And you can do that. All that information is below or on screen if you're listening or watching on YouTube right now. I think that's all the business.

[Lou]

I think it is all the business. Have you been watching the World Cup? Nah. Spain, Argentina in the final.

[Michael]

Big rivalry.

[Lou]

Read a book. Read a history book.

[Michael]

Are they friends?

[Lou]

You know how I keep telling you I'm doing a psychology class? Doing it.

[Michael]

Okay. Are you really?

[Lou]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University. Some classes, bro.

[Michael]

Oh, you fancy now, bruh.

[Lou]

I'm out here.

[Michael]

He's a schoolboy.

[Lou]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes. Snhu, go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career, you want to start a new thing. Snhu, what about you?

[Michael]

I mean, I love to learn.

[Lou]

Oh, God, he's never learned.

[Michael]

I need to. I need to do it more.

[Lou]

Officially, you never learned a thing. Anyway. If you want to check out Snhu and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu. Edu Sht and you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast. Learn some stuff, start a new career. Do whatever you need.

[Michael]

Go back to school.

[Lou]

Snhu. Edu Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info, start some learning. You're welcome. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our New sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Michael]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[Lou]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Michael]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Lou]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it, okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychicsource.com sht10, okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[Michael]

Okay, all right.

[Lou]

Talk about my love life.

[Michael]

Trying to see some.

[Lou]

Some.

[Michael]

Maybe some road bumps.

[Lou]

Just seeing if it's going to be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[Michael]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Lou]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it. And then DM us, because I want to hear how it went.

[Michael]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please, DM us.

[Lou]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Michael]

I want the tea.

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[Lou]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back secondhand therapy. I very intentionally did not check. I checked my phone once or twice a day max, because I do have, you know, important work emails I have to deal with in the mornings and stuff like that. I did receive a text message.

[Michael]

Yeah, from.

[Lou]

I'm not going to say. I'm not going to give you a. See if you could figure it out.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lou]

It's a newlywed gagorum.

[Michael]

And an avid listener, apparently, who sent

[Lou]

me a screenshot of the episode and said, thanks for the shout out.

[Michael]

Oh, no. So funny. Yeah. And.

[Lou]

Yeah. And then sent me a text later with an explanation.

[Michael]

Some context.

[Lou]

Nope.

[Michael]

An explanation.

[Lou]

It's just an explanation. It's not context.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lou]

And I said, you don't owe me an explanation. I love you. I'll see you later. That was it.

[Michael]

Did you even read it?

[Lou]

I'm. No, I skimmed it. Lightly. I skimmed, like, the first set. There was a couple. Like, we were gonna. We were planning on eloping. And then our families got involved and I was like, it doesn't matter.

[Michael]

It's.

[Lou]

It's your wedding. It's fine.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

You were living your life. I made it about me and got my feelings hurt. It's not up to you to fix my feelings. You did nothing wrong.

[Michael]

No.

[Lou]

Let me move on. So Daddy went camping.

[Michael]

Right.

[Lou]

And not checking his phone and got, you know, an explanation. Here's the thing. If you're listening to the show, you might be thinking to yourself, papa Bear, Daddy, Father Louie Lou Lou Bear. What do they call me?

[Michael]

You don't want to see it. I've seen the comments.

[Lou]

Papa Bear, Daddy, Father Louie Lou Bear. You might say you have said that. You don't even go hiking.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

What the hell are you doing camping? Yeah. That's a fair question. That's a fair question. Well, I have become curious.

[Michael]

I have been.

[Lou]

I went camping once in my life. I was 10.

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Ish.

[Michael]

Wow. Been a minute.

[Lou]

Some might say a quarter of a century. Yeah. I don't remember it a lot. I don't remember liking it or disliking. Was fine. I had to shit behind a tree.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Didn't like that part of it.

[Michael]

I'm out already.

[Lou]

You won't camp without toilets. Is that true?

[Michael]

That's true.

[Lou]

Hmm. That's surprising. Because you don't strike me as someone who would research whether they have toilets.

[Michael]

Absolutely. Is that a joke?

[Lou]

No.

[Michael]

Oh.

[Lou]

I would think you'd be like, I just assume they had toilets. Like, why? And you're like, it's Yosemite. Why wouldn't they?

[Michael]

Or whatever. Yeah. You research.

[Lou]

You research if they have toilets.

[Michael]

We'll get to that later.

[Lou]

Have you ever planned a camping trip?

[Michael]

No.

[Lou]

Yep.

[Michael]

Okay. There we go. I don't often go camping.

[Lou]

Yeah, me either. I went. So I had find myself wondering, in this new phase of my life where I am trying to be more. And I'm trying to live a much slower life and a more present life is camping for me. So I went camping. I think it's for me.

[Michael]

Oh, really?

[Lou]

I do think it's for me.

[Michael]

That is surprising.

[Lou]

Yeah, you and me both.

[Michael]

Okay. What did you enjoy about it?

[Lou]

Has nothing to do. You could do as much or as little as you want. You. You wake up. Here's the thing. There was a train close by, so the sleep wasn't great. The train.

[Michael]

Train. Yeah.

[Lou]

You go to bed when you're tired. There's no bedtime. There's no bedtime. The sun goes down, and then you're kind of like, I'm getting tired. Go lay down. Go to bed. You get up probably when the sun comes up, because you're out in a tent.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Get up. Oh, do you want a cup of coffee? You better boil a kettle. You better boil a kettle.

[Michael]

Huh?

[Lou]

I just like it, dude.

[Michael]

Yeah, you love a process. You love a little.

[Lou]

I love when stuff's not just so easy and accessible, you know? Yeah, I like that. And then, you know, we rotated who's responsible for the meal. You know, me and my girl cook breakfast one day, and then does somebody else cook dinner, and it's just like. And then you just go hang out.

[Michael]

A lot of community there. Yeah. Okay.

[Lou]

Yeah, I think it's. For me.

[Michael]

Damn.

[Lou]

But also, there was a gas station, like, four minutes away, so. Nobody. We weren't, like, going a restaurant, like.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

We weren't in the middle of. We were at the beach. It was a beach camp in California.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

So, yeah, it wasn't. We weren't out in a. You know, in Zion or Yosemite. Like, we were near civilization. But the partaking of the camping. I'm into it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

What do you like? Do you like camping?

[Michael]

I do.

[Lou]

What do you like about it?

[Michael]

I think. I mean, I do like the being outdoors, and I like, like. Like you said, like the no schedule. You can kind of do whatever you want and be out in nature. I just like being out in nature. I was gonna ask you if you thought that the company had anything to do with the enjoyment. Do you think you would have the same experience if you had different company or no company at all?

[Lou]

I think the company did play a

[Michael]

role,

[Lou]

but I'm gonna be quite honest with you. A lot of the company was in turmoil,

[Michael]

so you went with family.

[Lou]

It was the talk of the camp. Not openly, just in little pockets.

[Michael]

Love it. So.

[Lou]

But the company did play a part. I think as long as the company is all into the camp in the camping and what it is, I think it's fine. I think if I was with people that's like, okay, let's do a thing. Well, let's try camping. And no one really knows what they're doing or is, like, into it, then I think there's a lot of bickering and. Yeah, then it's probably not as enjoyable.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Also, myself as a. I would consider myself a new camper.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

I had some experts with me.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lou]

And that helped. If I were the expert camper, if I. Was it disaster. We're at the gas station. You know what I'm saying? We're there, right? We're going to the gas station. Yeah.

[Michael]

Was this a. Were there toilets around or was this a.

[Lou]

They did have toilets.

[Michael]

Okay. Thank God. Good for you. Good for you.

[Lou]

They had an out. Well, it's a beach, so they have those outdoor showers.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

They also had, like, essentially a bathroom without a toilet that had a token slot where you could take a shower. I think the difference was that you could have hot water.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lou]

Where the beach shower, you couldn't. So I didn't. I just did a beach shower. No soap.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Smelled like fucking yeti when I got back, dude. Just seaweed and ass, you know?

[Michael]

What did you do to pass the time? What did you find enjoyable?

[Lou]

Sitting, walking. Walked up and down the beach. Chit chatting, hanging. That's it. Dude. Sat under this, you know, covering thing. I like the shade. Okay. I freckle. Yeah, I freckle. I have tattoos. I like to secure my tattoos in the shade. Sat there, look at the ocean, you know, Watch the kids play. They come out, hey, Lou, dig a hole and bury me. Do you got it? Do that. Go back, look, watch the ocean. I also found myself. You. Do you remember how in the Matrix, who's the guy in the suit? Oh, Agent Smith. Yeah, Agent Smith. They could like any but, like, the lady grocery shopping Agent Smith could just, like, take over her body.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

I found myself. What? What's funny?

[Michael]

I'm curious where this is going.

[Lou]

Well, just fucking wait.

[Michael]

I'm waiting.

[Lou]

I found myself. People that I saw on the beach, imagining if I could just, like, take their perspective for a second. Like, there was this kid building a sand wall. Had us back to the ocean, like, so locked in on this sand wall. And I was like, I wonder if I could, like, pop in his head what that would look like. Like not even knowing the beaches. The ocean's behind you. And then there's like a guy down that's just in the water, sitting on his boogie board, just, like, looking out. And I was like, I wonder if that guy even knows I exist right now. Really weird how we're all just, like, having this very singular experience.

[Michael]

You Know. Yeah. I think about that a lot. Especially in crowded areas. Yeah. Yeah.

[Lou]

It's weird.

[Michael]

Yeah. Everybody just has their, like. Yeah. Their own thing happening that. Yeah. How complex your life is and everything. All the moving parts. Every single person has that.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's fucking wild to think about.

[Lou]

It's really weird. I also had a weird after we got back. So, you know, you pack up the car or whatever. When I say we, I mean I pack up the car. No, she helped got back and it was a weird fucking moment. Dude, go unload. I walk in the house and I just go. Because everything's sandy and dusty. So I go wash my hands because I don't like my hands to be dirty. Check out the hat. And I wash my hands and I look up and I see myself in the mirror. And I realized I hadn't seen myself in like four or five days.

[Michael]

Mmm.

[Lou]

I looked up and I was like, oh, my hair is like long, like. Oh, my beard is like longer and scragglier. And I was like. I had like a zit on my face and I was like. I hadn't even thought about what I looked like, my appearance, anything. The whole time I was there. Didn't. It didn't even cross my mind.

[Michael]

Damn.

[Lou]

It was fucking weird, man.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

There are too many mirrors. We're seeing ourselves too much. I stand by. I gonna die on this hill. I'm taking mirrors out of the house.

[Michael]

That's interesting. That's so fucking interesting.

[Lou]

It was. I had. I was like, oh, I. I didn't give a fuck what I looked like at all. Did I take my shirt off at the beach? No. Now that's different.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

That's not about mirrors. That's not about mirrors. But yeah, dude, I was like, oh, I need a haircut. Like, my beard looks like. I was like, I got a pimple on it. Had no idea. Damn. Not a clue. I really do want to take mirrors out of the house.

[Michael]

I know I. I know you're serious about that.

[Lou]

I want to for like 30 days.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

And like, keep a log of emotions or self worth. Or maybe I'm more or less likely to go to the gym without seeing myself. I don't know. I wonder what would happen.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Or leave one mirror.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Like out of the way and see if I like, find myself. Like, oh, maybe I should go to that room under the stairs and like an excuse to. You know what I mean?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

How bad do I want to see myself if I'm depriving myself?

[Michael]

Yeah. Dude, that's so Interesting.

[Lou]

Give me your thoughts.

[Michael]

I was watching this documentary recently, and they. This feeds in.

[Lou]

I was like, I want your thoughts.

[Michael]

But, yeah, yeah, they. This guy was deep in the jungles to with. Hang out with his tribe, and they were. He had a mirror and they had never seen themselves before, and he was showing them what they look like for the first time. And at first they had a hard time understanding what that even was or who that was or, you know, even recognizing themselves and. Yeah, that is such an interesting thought

[Lou]

of, like, kind of that guy, though, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Why should he.

[Michael]

Let him alone. Leave him alone.

[Lou]

Yeah, they had one perspective.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it feeds into a lot of, like, the social pressures, Right? Because I'm thinking, like, can I go 30 days out of the mirror? And my first thought is like, I gotta see. I gotta look before I leave the house.

[Lou]

Why?

[Michael]

Just to see if I look like a idiot or not.

[Lou]

Why?

[Michael]

I don't know. And then it feeds into, like, again, like, you were talking about, like, hair and beard and all this, like, what does it look like? What do I look like? You know? Like, I don't. It's all trappings of societal pressure and. Yeah.

[Lou]

Are you referring to your mom as societal pressure? Have we given her a new nickname?

[Michael]

Oftentimes I refer to her as societal pressure.

[Lou]

Yeah. It's all trappings of societal pressure.

[Michael]

That's true. But. No, there is. There is that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

[Lou]

I mean, I saw a joke when I took it.

[Michael]

She's a great joke.

[Lou]

It's a podcast.

[Michael]

It's a great joke.

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It's a. It.

[Michael]

I mean, we didn't dig her up for nothing.

[Lou]

Oh, my God.

[Michael]

I can't. I can't believe it.

[Lou]

If you're on Patreon, just go mosey on over to Apple or Spotify and just listen to the public intro. You'll get the joke. It's horrific.

[Michael]

Yeah. So, yeah, I don't. My takeaway is this. I. I am fascinated with that idea. I don't know if I could do it.

[Lou]

You're not fascinated enough to try it.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lou]

What?

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm not fascinated enough to try it. I worry too much about. I know, I know.

[Lou]

That's a bummer.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

You just ruined my whole night. Congratulations. You made me feel this.

[Michael]

That's right. I did. I made you do it.

[Lou]

Wow.

[Michael]

But we're also. We.

[Lou]

Nah.

[Michael]

What?

[Lou]

Don't justify it.

[Michael]

I'm not justifying it.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

I'm saying the differences between us, like, even we get into this all the time, right? About, like, you dress like Adam Sandler and you don't give a. Yeah, I don't.

[Lou]

I like to be comfortable.

[Michael]

Yeah. And so, like, of course, I think you could go 30 days because you're not worried about your appearance as much as I am.

[Lou]

I know, but do you think if you tried it, you'd be. You would find at the end of 30 days, oh, that was freeing. Like, I don't care as much anymore.

[Michael]

I'm sure I would.

[Lou]

Not worth it.

[Michael]

I don't think so for me.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

I know you disagree with that.

[Lou]

I don't. I'm not disagreeing. You're saying it's not worth it. I can't disagree with that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

It's confusing for me.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Because you often talk about how you want to be less vain and you want to care less, and you want. And then you have this thing that you're like, I bet it would help. Not worth it. So then my argument would be, I don't think you want to. You don't want to be, like, that bad. All you have to do is not look in the mirror for 30 days and, like, see what happens. You're like, oh, no, no, no, no.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Yeah. I don't. That's very confusing for me. It's such an easy, controllable thing to try.

[Michael]

Yeah. We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy. Ha. I know we talk about better help a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Lou]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[Michael]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[Michael]

It's not a good fit. Hey. And that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Lou]

And you're married now.

[Michael]

Oh, no.

[Lou]

Never.

[Michael]

Never.

[Lou]

You're in love now.

[Michael]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Lou]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Michael]

Absolutely not.

[Lou]

Let's do one together.

[Michael]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[Lou]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you, dude? You think I'm not gonna walk out with the Trophy.

[Michael]

I know you will.

[Lou]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhandtherapy we love you guys.

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[Michael]

I'm trying to figure out what it is.

[Lou]

Well, hold on. I have a guess.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Lou]

The beginning. You. What were you talking about today?

[Michael]

Control. Yeah.

[Lou]

Do you think that could be it?

[Michael]

Yeah, I mean, I know that, but I'm wondering why I'm holding on to that control. And I'm wondering if ego and pride are the same thing or if they're battling each other or what it is because, like, I often take. As much as I hate my body, I often take pride in how I look. You know what I mean?

[Lou]

Like, it's very confusing for me.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, the. It's not so much of, like, this is why it's not a priority for me. I think it would help me in ways that I view myself, of course, and even my body. Yes. However, the upkeep is what I'm worried about. My hair and beard kind of situation. That's what I'd be like, hey, I want to see.

[Lou]

That's the point.

[Michael]

Yes. But my thing isn't my. My work is more about my body than appearance. Does that make sense?

[Lou]

Your work, your therapy work.

[Michael]

My work on. On being vain or like, any of that stuff. Like, it's more about body than anything else. And so, yes, it would help me in the. In those ways. But yeah, upkeep is what. Is what I Keep going back to. I don't give up. Like, I can put together an outfit or I can do. I don't need to see that. I don't need to see my body and all those things.

[Lou]

But I. Oh, I don't buy that.

[Michael]

I want to make sure that my hair's not looking weird or like, you know, my head's, like, clean and shaved and all that stuff.

[Lou]

You always wear a hat.

[Michael]

Yeah. I mean, I could also do, like, a timing. I don't know. It's just a weird thing for me about, like, upkeep. Yeah. Presentable in that way more than anything else.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. That doesn't make sense. That's not separate. Or is it? I don't know.

[Lou]

I mean, I've said this before. You will always have a reason not to try something new. And, like, you're like, well, my thing's about my body, but I can't do it because my hair and my beard, like. Well, yeah. And so you're contradicting yourself.

[Michael]

Yeah, I get.

[Lou]

It's a weird thing. It's a big commitment.

[Michael]

I don't like when you say that I try new things. Not a lot, but often. Yeah. And. But yeah, there are. There are some things that. Yeah. That hold me back. Like that. Yes. But I didn't like how that was worded that.

[Lou]

You will. You will always have a reason to not try something new.

[Michael]

Word, always. There is like that. I don't like that. And. Because I have been implementing new things recently a lot, and. Yeah.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

I don't like that.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

What's going on with you?

[Michael]

You don't know? You get to talk about how about what you can't look in the mirror and all this stuff. Like, why did you just get to put me on the spot and then be like, I can do it, no problem. Move on.

[Lou]

What?

[Michael]

What?

[Lou]

Do you want to talk about it?

[Michael]

What? Could you do it for sure.

[Lou]

For sure. No, I'm sure. I'm sure it would be uncomfortable, but sure.

[Michael]

No hesitation.

[Lou]

Yeah. What's the problem? I'm sure there would be a lot of moments along the way. I'd be like, fuck, I shouldn't. Like, let me go before I go. Whatever. Of course.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

It's also impossible to avoid mirrors because you go into a public bathroom, there's going to be one you like. I think it would be interesting to see how often I found myself seeking out a mirror, but I didn't find myself doing that when I was camping at all. Yeah, I didn't try. I didn't There was no selfie camera. There was nothing.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

I didn't even think about it.

[Michael]

Do you think that would change in your day to day when you have more activity of, like, I'm going to the coffee shop, I'm going to the gym, we're meeting up with this person, or we're doing this or that? Like, do you think those pressures would get to you versus being out in the wilderness? Like, nobody gives a.

[Lou]

We're all out on the beach, like I said. I mean, I think I would probably have moments where I'd be like, I wish I had a mirror. But I'd be like, well, am I not going to go to dinner because there's no mirror? I'll go. What's someone going to go? Hey, your hair's up? Oh, yeah. I don't. I don't have mirrors at my house, you know? Yeah. What's the big deal?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Like, I'm sure I'll have urges, but am I either gonna go get a mirror or I'm gonna be like, I guess I'm leaving. Who cares what's gonna happen?

[Michael]

Yeah. You know, that's interesting.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Huh? Yeah.

[Lou]

What else would you like to talk about? My mirror experience, theories and experiments.

[Michael]

What else did you learn about yourself on this camping trip? It seems like he came back with some gems.

[Lou]

I learned that. I don't know if this is learning something about myself. I learned a little bit about the importance of intention. I often found, much like my hands being dirty. Same with my feet. I very rarely am barefoot. My feet. My feet be feeling grimy or dirty. Like, I don't like that at the beach. Impossible, right?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

So. But I did find myself in my slides, and I would even wear them through the sand and, like, get to the thing, and I would catch myself. Like, why don't. Like, I'm sitting here in my slides and, like, the intention of, like, put your feet in the sand, like, touch the earth, you're camping. Like, those kinds of moments that intention can go a long way. And I found myself, probably by the second day, taking off my slides when I was off the pavement at the edge of the sand, and then walking barefoot through the sand. So I learned how being aware and setting an intention early on helped me change habit pretty quickly. That was kind of interesting. What else did I learn about myself? I confirmed that I really do enjoy. Or maybe I didn't always enjoy it, but I was always able to find value and importance in stillness. There were moments of, you know, when I'd been sitting on the beach for a while, or we've been sitting at camp, you know, doing. We're walking, like, where I did feel restless. Like, what are we doing today? But it was always so easy to settle back in to, like, this is what we're doing. We're camping. We're chilling outside. Like, we're conversing. We're doing whatever. So I did con. Yeah, it felt. It felt, like, confirmed to myself that at this phase of my life, the moments of stillness and being are what I'm craving right now.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Even when we got back, like, dude, I did not want to turn on tv.

[Michael]

Really?

[Lou]

I was, like, dreading it almost.

[Michael]

Yeah. I was gonna ask, what. Did you change anything, or are you going to change anything being back?

[Lou]

No.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

I mean, I'm still. I still have all the same intentions. Like, my girl, you know, she's like, I'm gonna put some on when we get in bed. And I was like, can we not.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Like, I'm used to sleeping with this train above my head.

[Michael]

You're putting on trains. Yeah.

[Lou]

I was just like, can we not? She's like, yeah, okay. But, yeah, I just. I didn't want to do, like, the screen. It was nice to be home. It was nice to have air conditioning and, like, an ocean breeze is nice, but a tent gets hot.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

It was nice to have air conditioning. It was nice to have a couch and, like, not sitting in just a camp chair. Those things suck. So, yeah, I enjoyed some of the luxuries coming back, but also. Yeah, I didn't want some of the entertainment, I think, or a distraction.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Potato, potato, maybe. Yeah,

[Michael]

I like that.

[Lou]

Return.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Lou]

I mean, unless you got more questions.

[Michael]

Went Dakota this morning.

[Lou]

And you had therapy today back to

[Michael]

back that back all day. Yeah. And I started reading this book that I thought was going to be just a stupid little children's book.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

We'll talk about it another time, but. Oh, just crying reading it.

[Lou]

Nice.

[Michael]

Turns out that book's about me.

[Lou]

Not everything's okay.

[Michael]

Hey, Turns out, right?

[Lou]

Turns out I related to this.

[Michael]

Who wrote this? How did you find me?

[Lou]

I always wonder what that feels like for you. So often you'll see a movie or read a book and be like, this is about me. I so rarely see myself in. Yeah. And pieces of art like that. Remember you came from the Bruce Springsteen movie. You're like, I'm Bruce Springsteen. I was like, what? How'd you find. How'd you get that one?

[Michael]

Yeah, there were parts of. Yeah, it's. I saw parts of me in that? Yeah. Do you. Do you think for you it's a belief thing?

[Lou]

I don't understand what you're asking.

[Michael]

Going back to this idea of, like, you. You very rarely will believe something at face value. Like, the example I think we've used on the show before is, like, I could show you a video of, like, somebody helping an old woman up at a grocery store, and you're like, that's not real. So, like, because it's art and because, you know, it's on purpose, like, these are actors and this and that, or it's music or it's, you know, it's being presented. Do you think it. That's a better way to word it? Yeah. Do you think these things are being. That are presented, are harder for you to relate to because you know they're being presented?

[Lou]

No, because I don't think, like, for your example, a children's book. Like, I think as an adult, I've been moved or touched by a children's book, but I've never been so enveloped by it that I think or feel this is about me or, like, relate to it that deeply. Same thing with film and songs. Like, I relate to lines and feeling and emotion that come more so in film situations.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Will ring true. But I never. It never grabs me in a way of, like, that's me. For me, it doesn't come back to belief, although I understand why you would ask that. That makes sense to me. It just comes back. Or I guess what makes. What makes more sense for my mind is that I. I just think I have a stronger sense of identity than you do. Like, I'm. I'm much more confident and aware of who I am and what I like and what I don't like. And. Whereas I think. I mean, you've said it on here. You don't really know what you like. You don't know. You're still learning, trying to find yourself.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

So I think when you see these things, you're like, that's me. And it's like, okay, yeah,

[Michael]

so I'm in coda. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm in coda. And I'd already been thinking because I had therapy an hour after that or hour and a half after that. So I was already planning on going into therapy, wanting to hopefully talk to who. Whoever is running control and in the parts department.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

And so I already had that in mind. Then in coda, they were like, you know, we always vote on, like, what are we going to talk about each meeting and Control.

[Lou]

You're like, whatever you want.

[Michael]

Like, yeah, just a bunch of people like, whatever you want.

[Lou]

Whatever you guys want to talk about, I'm fine with whatever.

[Michael]

Yeah. Vote takes an hour. So control one.

[Lou]

Nice.

[Michael]

And I was like, well, look at that.

[Lou]

And controls a common arm through codependency.

[Michael]

Yeah, okay.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

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And

[Michael]

somebody shared this line today that rang deep within me, which was. They said they didn't. They didn't really worry about control before because control usually just hurt them, and they could get hurt. You know what I mean? Like, and then they realized that their control was hurting other people, and that's when they were like, oh, I need to do something about this. And I felt the same way. I always felt like the control was damage control for me.

[Lou]

Protecting yourself.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

And I didn't realize that controls more than likely hurting other people in ways that I don't even. No.

[Lou]

You know, does that mean it's not protecting you or while you're protecting yourself while you're, as a result, hurting other people.

[Michael]

Hurting other people. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. And that didn't feel great. And so I brought it up in therapy today, and I said, hey, I want to do some parts work. I want to talk about control and this and that. And then we went. We didn't end up doing parts where we started exploring control. And he goes, can you give me a recent example? And I said, sure. Last night, I'm working with my buddies. I haven't seen these guys in years. And. Well, one of them I have, but the other one I haven't. We haven't, like, worked together together in a long time. And I'm having the best time with them, and I'm trying to soak it up because one of them is leaving tonight, and so we only get three days with him. And so last night they were like, hey, we should all go in this little breakfast spot and get pancakes after the show. Like, old times. This and that.

[Lou]

Who? Night diner. Oh, dude, fuck. I love a night diner because, you

[Michael]

know, when you're on the road and you're touring, you're a comic. Like, there's nothing open but diners after the shows. And so oftentimes we find ourselves at 1am at a fucking Denny's or an IHOP or whatever the. You know, wherever it is, and you talk and you. You know, whatever. And so they bring up this diner, and I'm the only one with a car we have here. Yeah, they don't. And my buddy also has a car who works there but, like, you know, whatever. So they're like, hey, can you drive this and that? I'm like, yeah, of course. And then my mind immediately goes to control. It does what it always does. I start thinking about every single step, which is, how far away is this diner? Am I going to get anything to eat? I'm really not feeling like it. I've already had dinner. I feel like, is there parking? Am I have to pay for parking? Where is the. I start going down that instead of just being like, I get to go hang out with my friends. I am trying to control everything about the situation instead of just enjoying it.

[Lou]

Did you go, yeah. Nice.

[Michael]

Yeah. And I had a great fucking time, of course.

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And.

[Michael]

But I'm noticing that that is because he was talking about. My therapist was asking me about, like, events or things like that that I can think of in my life that where, like, control has taken over. And I'm like, it takes over all the time. In ordinary scenarios, you and I talk about this all the time, where it's like, hey, you should be cooking more. Like, why aren't you cooking this and that? I'm like, I do want to cook more, but my mind goes to. I got to do this. It goes down that checklist of 100 different things that go into making dinner instead of just. Just make dinner.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And so he brought up. He goes, this is really interesting. It sounds like you have a. A lack of improv, which is really interesting for you. Somebody who performs.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I was like, yeah. That brings us back to the two Michaels, like, Michael on stage can go with the flow and do all that stuff, but Michael in real life can't. And we explored that a little bit, and guess what it came back to Mom. Nope. Damn. Take a shot.

[Lou]

We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy after this. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Michael]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[Lou]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Michael]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Lou]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it. Okay? Now, here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychic source.com sht10. Okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[Michael]

Okay, all right.

[Lou]

Talk about my love life.

[Michael]

Trying to see some.

[Lou]

Some. Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just, like, a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[Michael]

Oh, my God. I can't wait.

[Lou]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us, because I want to hear how it went.

[Michael]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please DM us.

[Lou]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Michael]

I want the tea. I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Lou]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[Michael]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[Michael]

It's not a good day, and that happens. Finding good therapist is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Lou]

And you're married now.

[Michael]

Oh, no. Never. Never.

[Lou]

You're in love now.

[Michael]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Lou]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Michael]

Absolutely not.

[Lou]

Let's do one together.

[Michael]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[Lou]

I'll do it. You think I want to do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you, dude? You think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[Michael]

I know you will.

[Lou]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy, and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com. Secondhand therapy. We love you guys.

[Michael]

I wrote a book which still feels weird to say out loud. It is a collection of short stories and essays and faux journal entries, and it's, you know, all about love, grief, dating, loneliness, and all the weird ways people try to hold on to each other while they fall apart. Some of the stories are funny. Some of the stories are sad. Most are, you know, a blend of both. I mean, honestly, the book really isn't about love. It's. It's more about moments, like those awkward moments after an argument or the drive home after a bad date, or, you know, that silence after someone says, I'm fine when you know that they're lying to you. Anyways, I am offering signed copies of the [e-mail] so if you've ever mistaken attention for intimacy or referred to distance as independence or, you know, love someone and then realized that that really wasn't the problem, then this book might be for you. And you can get a signed copy and stickers and bookmarks and all kinds of fun [e-mail] it's available in paperback, hardback, ebook, and the audiobook is coming soon, so there's no excuse. Go check it out. Velvettigerbooks.com Ever heard the story of Harry? He was a legend around here.

[Lou]

Until one afternoon he left, never came back. Turns out Harry went and made himself a website using Squarespace.

[Michael]

Use Squarespace domains to buy artisanseatcushions.com and

[Lou]

he built a beautiful site with an online store to sell his artisan seat cushions.

[Michael]

Now Harry's sitting on a fortune.

[Lou]

And if our Harry can do it, anyone can.

[Michael]

Build your [e-mail], use, offer, code, everything for 10% off your website or domain.

[Lou]

Lucky. I'll give you a real guess.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lou]

Okay. Because if you're not in control, something will get up, they'll get mad at you, and they'll leave. Okay, what is it?

[Michael]

Safety. Our old friend safety.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

On stage, I have the confidence enough to know that, like, I got it. I'm good. The. The venues are in place in a way that, like, we've all agreed that, you know, like, this is what we're doing here. There's. There's people working all that. Like, I feel safe in life. I am so vulnerable, like, anything could happen at any time, and I have no control over any of that. And I am very unprepared for any of it or feeling that way. Yeah. And so what I've been doing is trying to combat. Emotion with logic. Because emotionally, the lack of control is overwhelming. Logically, it doesn't fucking matter. Hey, is there parking? We'll find out. Mm. Hey, is this. Is this blah, blah, blah? It either is or it isn't.

[Lou]

Mm. Both true.

[Michael]

Yeah. And I saw it play out with somebody else recently. And this is again, another food story. I don't know. But we were all trying to go get burgers one night after the show, and I was actually with Ken. And Ken's like, hey, we're gonna go get a burger. And this other guy was like, where are you getting it? And he goes, I don't know. This little burger spot. And he goes, what kind of burgers are they? And he goes, cheeseburgers. And he goes, how far away is it? And Ken just stops and goes, do you want to go get a cheeseburger or not? And the guy goes, yeah, okay. And then we left and got a burger. And I think about that. I've thought about that happened like three weeks ago, and I think about that decision making all the time. And I've just adopted that phrase of like, do you want to get a burger or not? So it's like, hey, do you want to go here? Do you want to. Hey, is this. That's the question?

[Lou]

Yeah. How come when I do that, you get mad at me?

[Michael]

I don't get mad because. Okay. Huh? Do you want a real answer?

[Lou]

Yes, I. We have. Let me. Hold on. I'm gonna give you some context.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Lou]

Many a time.

[Michael]

Huh?

[Lou]

We have been downstairs and I'll be like, hey, you want to do this? And you have a million questions like, do you want to go or not? And you'd like, nah, yeah, I'll just pass. Why? Yeah, tell me why. Tell me why.

[Michael]

Well, I had not seen it from the outside before. I had not seen it from a different perspective before.

[Lou]

You're the king of empathy.

[Michael]

Yeah, we'll get to that.

[Lou]

Self proclaimed king of empathy. I'm trying to get your uncle's Voice down. Not 20 years ago.

[Michael]

20 years ago.

[Lou]

Self proclaimed king of empathy. All right, go ahead. This guy. Good for you. I'm angry. Good for you. I'm so goddamn angry.

[Michael]

Go ahead. Yeah. So he asked, where am I body? Do I feel it when these things come up, these questions? And it's like, it's in my chest. So that means it's our good friend anxiety.

[Lou]

Chest and anus.

[Michael]

Yeah,

[Lou]

it's my chest and my anus.

[Michael]

My anus. They get really t. But it's that feeling of being trapped, trapped in A way. That is like one of the. One of the recent experiences. I went to the Sphere, right? And a group of us were going. I'd never been before. I should just be excited to go. The I had to talk myself out of thinking about this multiple times in the night.

[Lou]

Was.

[Michael]

It's gonna be a nightmare to get out of here. How are we getting home? How are we getting out of here? That Uber is gonna take forever. All the. Doesn't matter.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

We're here now, and we're either gonna get stuck in traffic or we're not. Yeah, but getting stuck in traffic is. I'm trapped in a scenario, and it's a. And it's of my own doing. You know, like, you should have left earlier. You should have done it. It's that blame. It's that guilt. It's all that stuff.

[Lou]

Okay? You're. You're trapped.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

And what's the consequence of being trapped? What's gonna happen while you're trapped?

[Michael]

You're gonna love this.

[Lou]

No, I'm not.

[Michael]

Yeah, you are.

[Lou]

I'm gonna hate it.

[Michael]

Yep. You know what it is?

[Lou]

Tell me.

[Michael]

You already know.

[Lou]

You say it. You say it. Tell Daddy

[Michael]

it's uncomfortable just sitting in traffic. Yep.

[Lou]

What's uncomfortable about it?

[Michael]

Well, I just connected this and I don't like it.

[Lou]

Beautiful. Tell us more.

[Michael]

I don't want to.

[Lou]

Tell me more.

[Michael]

Tell me more. I don't want to.

[Lou]

Is it your mom?

[Michael]

I mean, part of it. Part of it's worth scenario. Yeah.

[Lou]

Of course.

[Michael]

That's always the underlying. And that's what I even told my therapist. I was like. I just always chalked it up being just raised around worst case scenario, but it's more than that. And what. I just connected right now, which I don't want to talk about.

[Lou]

Can I guess?

[Michael]

I don't want to hear a sure

[Lou]

because there's nowhere to go, nothing to do, and you're just stuck with yourself.

[Michael]

Nope.

[Lou]

Is that another one you didn't realize?

[Michael]

Nope.

[Lou]

Okay. I said no. Okay. Go ahead.

[Michael]

God, you're gonna have a field day.

[Lou]

I love field days.

[Michael]

I am not smart enough to get myself out of this.

[Lou]

Out of being stuck in traffic.

[Michael]

Real dumb. Yeah. You couldn't figure it out. Couldn't figure it out, huh? You're sitting here in traffic like a. Because you couldn't figure it out. You. You didn't think about leaving 10 minutes early? You didn't think about maybe waiting till the crowd cleared?

[Lou]

You didn't.

[Michael]

No. Instead, we're stuck here like a idiot.

[Lou]

But you leave early and then you missed the. You're like, they did play that song. Hey, why couldn't I just stay? Yeah. Yeah. There's no winning with you.

[Michael]

No.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Hey, welcome to my brain.

[Lou]

My therapist even goes, I'd like to

[Michael]

leave because aren't you exhausted? I said all the time.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

He said, yeah, yeah.

[Lou]

What if you took the mirrors out of your house? I could never. Yes, I'm exhausted. Do you want to rest? How. No, that's new. I will not be resting or removing mirrors.

[Michael]

Yeah,

[Lou]

I'll leave early. You know what? I just won't go.

[Michael]

You know what? You know what? I'm out.

[Lou]

You know what? I just won't go.

[Michael]

Okay, sorry. Go. That's usually how it goes. I usually go, you know, I'm not going. Go. I'm not gonna go. Yeah. Even last night, this is another layer to the questions. There are subcategories.

[Lou]

I mean, if anyone's gonna complicate it.

[Michael]

Oh, gonna be me, baby.

[Lou]

It's all Mikey Malone.

[Michael]

Goddamn right. So one of the questions that was going on in my head to the very simple question of, do you want to get pancakes?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Is do you need me to drive? Okay. And then the subcategory is, if I'm driving, am I responsible for bringing you back here? Or is our other friend going to drop you off? Or how does that work? And that goes into. Because what will you think of me if I don't drop you back off? Even though it makes no sense for me to go that way. Like, it's 20 minutes out of my way last night. I don't want to do that. But if I don't do that, you're going to be like, fucking Malone didn't even take us back to the hotel. And then that's going to play into later. This is what goes on in my head. This goes on to later, to next time, you go, hey, we're going to go anywhere. Pancakes or concert, whatever. Don't. Don't tell him alone, because he won't even. He couldn't even drop us off that night.

[Lou]

Why can't you? Even if it is 20 minutes, what do you have to do?

[Michael]

That's what I mean. Like, yeah, I'm just damned if I do, damned if I don't. Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I could do that. And also, like, is that what I'm supposed to do? Like, I'm fighting that. I don't know. Like, again, it goes into how I'm perceived, and it goes back into what we Always talk about, which is like, my permanent record goes on my fucking permanent record. And so it's like, okay, but what's

[Lou]

the Damned if you do. Let's say you do. You just go, yeah, I'll bring you back.

[Michael]

No problem. Oh, that goes into. What I need to realize is the control. Right. Like, the logic versus emotion. I can't. What we talk about all the time on here is I can't control however you're gonna think or feel. So I could drive you back to the hotel. I could walk you to your fucking door. I could tuck you in to your fucking bed and be like, I had a really great time tonight. See you later. And you could think that Malone is overbearing, dude. Like, he walked me up here. Like, he didn't have. Like. So who knows? I can't control any of that.

[Lou]

Okay, let me ask you a different way.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

So you said if I don't drive you back here. Oh, God. He couldn't even bring us back.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

So why not just bring him back?

[Michael]

Inconvenient. Out of my way, like. Yeah.

[Lou]

So.

[Michael]

Right. You just asked me why I wouldn't. Why I didn't want. Just don't wanna. Just don't want to.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

Yeah, I don't. Sometimes you don't want to do things.

[Lou]

Sure.

[Michael]

Didn't want to do it. Yeah. Didn't make. It didn't make sense for me.

[Lou]

Mm.

[Michael]

And then that falls into the category of, like, was that what you're supposed to do? Is that, you know, and you're like, I don't know.

[Lou]

I have a question.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Lou]

Or a thought.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Lou]

If they don't have cars.

[Michael]

Yeah. But somebody else did. And somebody else was going back to the hotel.

[Lou]

Got it.

[Michael]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Lou]

But if you were the only one with a car.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah. Then it's not a question. That's what you do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Lou]

Say yeah again.

[Michael]

Well, I'm just like, no, I'm not just gonna, like, leave my. Yeah.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

That's not what was happening.

[Lou]

I was like, I think you might be a prick, dude.

[Michael]

No, no, no. Yeah.

[Lou]

I just don't want to. It's 20 minutes.

[Michael]

No.

[Lou]

Then they have to Uber like, you're a dick, dude.

[Michael]

All right, go ahead. Yeah.

[Lou]

So,

[Michael]

yeah, I can't control any of that. And logically, I know that, but emotionally.

[Lou]

But logically, do you know that in the moment, do you even have the thought.

[Michael]

Not in the moment. And if I do, it's a real fight. It's a real fight to be like, hey, this this makes it like you're. This is what actually is happening. And then he said, I was talking about, like, how they view me or how I think they view me and all this stuff and how I can't control it. He said, do you, do you view others like you think they're viewing you? That's what you've said. I know you've said this to me and I have thought about it and pissed. And I said, well, we've talked about on here, which is like, I grew up around gossip. And so of course I think that that's what's happening because that's how my family was. We were a family of. Don't let them know that you know this. And so whether I know it or not, they could be saying anything. And I just assume that they are.

[Lou]

So why don't you stop engaging in that?

[Michael]

I usually shut it down with empathy,

[Lou]

but oftentimes, oftentimes, like, give me the tea, I need the tea.

[Michael]

Yeah, I like that part of it. I'm talking about just judging people on, like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, if there is judgment, I fight it with empathy. And then usually it pours over into too much empathy. And then I don't stand up for myself or I don't. I forgive others too much and I end up just being like, yeah, but that person that hurt me real bad. But I'm like, yeah, but they're going through a lot or they're going through this or they're. And so I fight it with that. And so, yeah, it washes away and then I end up still hurt.

[Lou]

Are you coming around to that? I'm right?

[Michael]

Never.

[Lou]

It sounds like you might be. Hello, my little bear cub. I just wanted to say thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you would like ad free episodes and other bonus content, please head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod okay, love you, bye. And we know that J.

[Michael]

That's a bear.

[Lou]

It's not.

[Michael]

If you can make a dish, you

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