Codependency Is Controlling Your Relationships (And You Don’t See It) | #120

Summary

Secondhand Therapy – Episode #120

"Codependency Is Controlling Your Relationships (And You Don’t See It)"

Released: March 2, 2026
Hosts: Louie Paoletti, Michael Malone
Guest: Ken Gar

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Episode Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy dives deep into the realities of codependency, how it subtly controls relationships, and the messy process of recognizing and healing from it. Hosts Louie and Michael, joined by recurring guest Ken Gar, blend humor with raw honesty as they unpack their personal therapy journeys, share stories of self-sabotage, and reflect on building healthier connections. Together, they explore codependency’s roots, why letting go is so hard, and practical steps toward emotional growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Codependency & Personal Experience

• Ken’s Story: Ken shares how he was introduced to Codependents Anonymous (CoDA) in therapy and initially resisted the idea before a bad breakup motivated him to attend a meeting. Sitting among others who understood his struggles was transformative.

  “The minute I sat down, I was like, these are my people. This is my language.” (06:32)

• Addiction Parallel: Ken emphasizes that codependency is an addiction, just like alcoholism, except the 'drug' is people and relationships, not substances.

  “You make people your higher power.” (12:49)

• Self-Worth Issues: Both hosts discuss how much they tie their value to others’ approval or presence.

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2. 12 Step Recovery & the Value of a Sponsor

• Importance of Steps: Michael struggles with understanding some of the 12 steps, particularly those involving making amends, fearing it may harm others or reopen old wounds.
• Role of a Sponsor: Ken stresses the necessity of a sponsor to guide you through the program, cautioning against lone-wolf attempts for codependents who already struggle with asking for help.

  “You can't do this alone. You have to get a sponsor.” (08:23)

• Chronology of Steps: The steps are designed so that when you reach the 'scary ones,' you’re emotionally prepared.

  “It’s the miracle of the program... by the time you get to that level, you’re like, oh, I’m ready.” (08:26)

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3. Honesty and Self-Reflection

• Rigorous Honesty: Ken attributes much personal growth to committing to “rigorous honesty,” both with himself and others.

  “Everything in my life changed when I made a commitment to be an honest person through and through.” (15:35)

• Self-Lies: Much codependency is rooted in self-deception: pretending to be fine, hiding behind masks of confidence, or shaping oneself to be adored.
• Letting Partners See the Real You: As Ken learned, “My wife knows I’m insecure, she knows my flaws, and that’s okay.” (28:29)

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4. How Codependency Shows Up in Relationships

• People Pleasing & Conflict Avoidance: Codependents often avoid conflict at all costs, even if it means lying or swallowing their needs.
• Partners as Projects:

  “My partners weren’t partners, they were projects.” – Ken (12:25)

• Expectations in Service: Ken discusses the subtle difference between service and keeping score. If you’re doing to get, you’re still trapped by codependency.

  “It’s not quid pro quo... my hope is that I picked a partner that wants to be a giver too.” (18:11)

• Safety vs. Intimacy: Many codependents confuse a partner’s presence with real intimacy and security.

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5. Intimacy, Boundaries, and Healthy Love

• Learning True Intimacy: Intimacy is not just sex, but emotional vulnerability and small, meaningful acts. Learning to exist with someone in honesty is the heart of grown-up love.

  “Love for me is safety and security in a healthy, balanced relationship.” (24:02)

• Small Acts Matter:

  “The sexiest thing I can do for my wife is fill her water bottle... these little acts.” – Ken (20:05)

• Setting Boundaries: Ken describes learning to make and communicate decisions honestly—no more “whatever you want.”

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6. The Struggle to Let Go & Detach

• Letting Go: Ken shares a powerful story about learning to let feelings pass, recounting a near road rage incident where he “just listened to the voice that said: stop.”

  “You are in charge of your reactions. Go sit in a corner and feel that feeling and let it go.” (37:23)

• Survival Skills from Childhood: Many patterns originate in families where feelings weren’t discussed or needs weren’t met.
• Handling Conflict Without Destruction: The need for everything to be “okay” or “perfect” leads to either suppressing feelings or blowing up relationships.

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7. Building Self-Esteem & Facing Conflict

• Small Steps Toward Vulnerability: Both hosts and Ken describe moments of sticking up for themselves, risking rejection or conflict—and finding relief when they survived it.

  “I was terrified—but I felt incredible after standing up for myself.” – Michael (52:59)

• Self-Parenting: Ken explains the need to “parent the little kid inside” with compassion, especially when preparing to have hard conversations.

  “You have to parent the little kid in you... adult Ken has to step in and say: it’s okay to say the scary thing.” (57:05)

• Delay Reactivity:

  “Give it a minute. Journal. Pray. Get the feeling from the sick part of your brain to the healthy part.” (48:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On controlling and fixing:

  “My partners weren't partners, they were projects.” – Ken (12:25)

• On honesty:

  “Your opinion of me is none of my business.” – Ken quoting his sponsor (31:13)

• On codependent panic:

  “If somebody’s like ‘we need to talk later,’ that’s it, I’m on the chopping block. I start packing up.” – Michael (44:01)

• On everyday decisions:

  “Paper or plastic? Don’t say ‘whatever.’ Decide. Make decisions.” – Ken, on practicing self-expression (46:00)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 06:32 – Ken's “aha” moment at first CoDA meeting
• 08:23 – Need for a sponsor in codependent recovery
• 12:49 – Defining people as your higher power/addiction
• 15:02 – The struggle with rigorous honesty
• 18:11 – Givers, takers, and not expecting in return
• 24:02 – What healthy love and security feel like
• 31:13 – “Your opinion of me is none of my business.”
• 37:23 – Ken’s story about letting go of anger
• 46:00 – Making decisions to build self-worth
• 52:59 – Michael stands up for himself with family
• 57:05 – Ken on self-parenting and preparing for hard talks

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Takeaway Lessons

• Codependency is sneaky, persistent, and shapes relationships in ways we might not see.
• Healing it requires a blend of honesty, support (especially via sponsors and a recovery community), willingness to sit in discomfort, and practicing direct communication.
• Real intimacy comes through small consistent acts and honest conversations, not big gestures.
• Setting boundaries and making decisions are acts of self-worth.
• Letting go and feeling your feelings is vital—even if the urge to control or fix is overwhelming.

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In their own honest, self-mocking and deeply human way, the Secondhand Therapy crew remind us: Codependency is common, recovery is possible, and real relationships start with showing up messy and true.

For anyone who suspects their “helping” is costing them, or who feels the anxiety of being needed, this episode is equal parts comfort and challenge.

Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapy pod if you're

[B]

interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[A]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[B]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[A]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[B]

All right, so here's the thing.

[C]

That he already did it.

[B]

Okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic and trust me, here's what you do. You go to trypsychic source.com/sht10, okay? You're going to get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business.

[C]

Talk about my love life.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[B]

Talk about my love life.

[A]

Trying to see some. Some. Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if

[B]

it's gonna be clear skies and it's not. Now I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[A]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[B]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us because I want to hear how it went.

[A]

Oh, I can't.

[C]

I.

[A]

Please, please DM us.

[B]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[A]

I want the tea. Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy. We remind you that we are not therapists. We're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy. And this is not profess voice in any way. We have a special.

[C]

We have a special guest today.

[A]

We got. We got Kingar in the studio, baby. He's back and he's pissed.

[C]

I took Luan and now I'm come back from alone.

[A]

We're doing a little one on one today with Ken. We're gonna be talking about codependency. It's gonna be super fun. You are gonna hear some ads. You're gonna hear so many ads. There is a way to avoid that. I don't know if you know about this or not, but we have a Patreon. I don't know if you heard us talk about or not, but we have a Patreon page. You can get access to early episodes. You can not early episodes. You get access early to the episode.

[C]

There it is.

[A]

Early episodes. No, we haven't even heard them yet.

[C]

We did. We recorded them in 1852.

[A]

The earliest recordings. You get early access to episodes. You get access to our bonus podcast called the Other show, which is our non therapy podcast. Probably the better show. And you get merch discounts. You get live hangouts. We just did one. So if you're not on Patreon, you just missed one. We just hung out with everybody and we did it in a little chat room and we were vibing and it was cool. You missed out. There's tons of stuff on there. Go to Patreon, sign up ad, free episodes. All the stuff I just mentioned. So I, I, I wrote a book. A book is out there. It's up for pre order. You can get it on velvet tiger books.com if, if you want and I'll sign it. And you get stickers and bookmarks and all kinds of, kinds of good stuff there.

[C]

Quite the confident salesman. Get it, don't get it. It's fine. I wouldn't bother you.

[A]

Look, I don't want to bug you too much if it's, if it's not a bother.

[C]

It's the most codependent ad I've ever heard. I mean, it's okay. Buy it, don't buy it, Forget it, don't buy it.

[A]

Exactly. That's available. And also you can reach out. You can send us stuff. We have a P.O. box. You can send us physical things or you can digital things. You can send us little text messages and voice memos and sometimes we talk about them on air. And all that information is in the bio. I think I covered everything.

[C]

Sounds like it.

[A]

I know. I'm going to listen to this back and be like, yeah, of course. That's how it always is.

[C]

Don't look back.

[A]

You know what?

[C]

Eyes forward.

[A]

If I miss something, don't tell Lou, okay? Do me a favor. Just say he knocked it out. He killed it.

[C]

We don't want you to get grounded. Exactly.

[A]

Let's get into the episode. We love you. Thank you for being here. I don't know why you're still here. Go to Patreon.

[B]

Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back.

[A]

Secondhand therapy. And we know that I went Dakota today.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And I, I have. Listen, I haven't been, I haven't been going as much. Not on purpose. Just. I forget.

[C]

You forget.

[A]

I forget.

[C]

You forget to go on a healing journey.

[A]

Yeah. Sometimes I'm like, oh, it's Wednesday. And then I'm like, ah,

[B]

yeah.

[A]

I just haven't been making it a priority. You know what? There's the accountability. I haven't been making it a priority.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I was. When I was going every week, and I was loving it. I was loving discovering all of these things that. I mean, I guess that's the point, right? You feel like it's just. It's just you that feels this way or there's something.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you get in there and you're like, oh, there's a bunch of us.

[C]

Oh, yeah. How many different levels?

[A]

Yeah. How did it feel when you first. Did you get sober first and then you got into code?

[C]

No.

[A]

Oh, okay. So you were in coda first.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So. So years ago, I was in therapy, and my therapist was. He introduced me to the idea of coda and codependence Anonymous and codependency really give me. And I'm like, this isn't it. And then he's like, let's talk about alcoholism. I'm like, that can't be it either. So I paid him, like, all this money, and he, like, just gave me the answers, you know, event. Yeah. But I just wasn't ready to hear it. Went through a really, really bad breakup. And I remember somebody had. He had mentioned coda, and I was just, like, desperate for not wanting to feel this way anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And. And so I was just like. It was a Saturday morning meeting, and I was just like, I'm gonna go. And, like, the minute I sat down, I was like, these are my people.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Is my language. I remember somebody had dropped a pen on the floor, and I remember just staring at the pen, like, I should find this. Whose pen is this? They probably missed this pet, you know, and going like, oh, this is. You know, and then just hearing some stories, you know, I. I met my sponsor that day. I. He just. He talked, and I'm like, that's the guy. And I just walked up to him after the meeting. I, Like, I was desperate. I needed help real bad. Yeah. And so I didn't waste any time. Got the workbook, started with him right away and met weekly. Went through the steps and just. And still. Still didn't get relief. Still met another, like, toxic person. We restarted the steps because he's like, yeah, I'm gonna take it back to one. He's like, you're not getting it. I was like, no, man, but she's like, the love of my life. I meant that. I meant the 14th love of my Life.

[A]

Yeah. What. That's what I get. That's what I'm kind of hung up on is.

[C]

Is the steps, the thing that you're there to do.

[A]

That you're there to do. Yeah.

[C]

So let me get this straight. You're not going to meetings and you don't want to do the steps? Sounds like you've got a great program in place there, Michael.

[A]

It's not that I don't want to do the steps. I don't understand how. Because some of them are like, you know, apologize to people you've affected with this and that, and I'm like, yeah. And I don't. I don't really know what that looks like without.

[C]

You're getting. Well, you're getting way ahead of yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So first of all, you know, you have to get a sponsor. You can't. I knew you. What you were gonna do, like, when you got the workbook. I'm like, he's gonna try to do this himself.

[A]

Yeah, I've been filling out the workbook.

[C]

Of course you can't. You have to get a sponsor.

[A]

The most anti. Codependent. Codependent, Right. I got it.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't need anybody, but I do. No, you need to get a sponsor, and they will walk you through the steps, and by the time you get to that step. That's scary. It'll all make sense. Yeah. Right. So it just. It just like, that's why you do them in order. You don't. You're not like, you know, day one, like, sorry, you call up your ex. Sorry about that. You know? No, it's. It's. It's like the miracle of the program is like. Is the chronology of the steps themselves. So by the time you get to that level, you're like, oh, I'm ready. This is. This is going to be great. Yeah. Or maybe not. Maybe it'll be scary. You know, it was scary reaching out to my ex. Wife and being like, I lied. I messed up. I'm sorry. Yeah. You know. You know, but if. But like, do you think that can

[A]

be disruptive on their end?

[C]

You don't. You. That's why you have a sponsor, because you go through each name, right? And you go, you know, the. The step is like, unless it would affect them in a negative way.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So it's. It's like you, like if you. If you slept with a married woman, for example, like, you wouldn't reach out to her and be like, I'm sorry, let me get your husband on the phone, you know? Like, you wouldn't, you know, interfere with that, you know, or if someone had put a boundary on you and been like, yeah, we don't want to talk to you or see you ever again, then you're like, all right, cool. That's the boundary. Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

So, you know, but. But this is such a weird. It's not a weird program. It's such a cool thing. It's like, you know, you might run into somebody in the airport and be like, hey, I gotta. I gotta tell you I'm sorry for, you know. And what you're doing is. You're just. And again, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves on this thing, but, like, to make it less scary, you're just like. Like, you're. You're owning. You're taking accountability for the things that you did in the relationship. It doesn't mean that this person isn't toxic. It doesn't mean that they're, you know, it. It doesn't mean that they didn't screw up too, or make mistakes too. But you're owning. Like, for example, with my wife, like, I wanted to avoid conflict at all costs with my ex wife. And so, like, I would lie. These little tiny lies, you know, not big lies, you know, they were big to her because they were lies. So a lie is a lie. But in my brain, I was like, this is just like, I don't want to. You know, she's gonna be real mad if she finds us out, you know, So I would, like, lie. And then all of a sudden, it's just like, she would find out because I'm a guy and we're dumb and we're not good at lying. I'm not good at lying at all. I've got to tell. It's insane, but. But, you know, I had to own that thing because those little lies added up to betrayal. Right. Or they added up to her, me not being trustworthy in our marriage. And that's the part I had to own. It doesn't mean that she didn't do things too. It doesn't mean that she's not at fault for the things that she hasn't. And the other thing is just, like, not expecting her, like, okay, I apologize. Do you have anything you want to say? No, it doesn't work that way.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's. That's, again, that's the control that comes along, Right? Yeah.

[C]

So you're keeping your side. You're just cleaning your side of the street.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? Like, they're what. Whether or not they want to say something, you know, it's up to them, you know, and you can't, you know, because it's codependent people. We're very controlling, manipulative, kind of. You know, everyone's like, how'd you get your wife? I'm like, it was a combination of love bombing and gaslighting. You know, we want to start off, like, a heavy dose of love and then be like, you're crazy. You know? But,

[A]

yeah, I. That, that's. That's the main exercise I. I feel in those meetings is when people are sharing. I. I just want to jump in, you know, I just want to be like, hey, here's. I just want to help.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I was like, yeah, no, no. That's why we're here.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Shut the up and listen and just be. And just be.

[C]

Yeah. First thing I tell people that I walk through this program is I go, you can't give any unsolicited advice this week.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You're like, oh, that's no problem. And then a week later, like, that was the hardest thing ever. Yeah. Is me telling people, like, well, if you just. If you just do this, this and that, and, you know, I think I told an ex girlfriend once, I'm like, if you just followed all the instruction I give you, your life would be so much better. Like, how arrogant. Jesus. Right?

[A]

Like, yeah.

[C]

You know, because I was like, oh, I want to fix all this.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you know, my partners weren't partners, they were projects.

[A]

Do you think. Do you think that's because

[C]

for me,

[A]

this is another codependent thing using I statements and things. Like, for me, I, It's. It goes into my value, right? Like, yeah, I want to be valuable a thousand percent.

[C]

So here's the thing, right? So for those of you who might be new to codependency, like, this is. So. So basically, you make people your higher power, right? So, yeah, it's an addiction, just like alcohol. So instead of alcohol being your higher power, it's people in relationships. It could be a boss, it could be a cousin, it could be a friend. Most likely it's a partner, a boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever. It could be a parent for sure. Right? Yeah. But what happens is that I had such so low self worth and self esteem that I would get my self worth and self esteem through my partner. But that's not healthy, right? Like, I have to stand on my own two feet and feel good about who I am as a person.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But in order to, like, get this Person to give me the fix that I need, which is like, you're so handsome. You're the best boyfriend ever. You're. This is, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, you have to do all this, like, enmeshing and controlling and manipulation and like, all these things to get them to stay because once they're there, like, you don't want to deal with a breakup because now you're losing. You're literally losing your God, this higher power in your life. Yeah. You know, and so, you know, what you have to do is find the value in yourself and find the self worth. And pass. Yeah. Hard, Hard. You know what?

[A]

I think we're done here.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Gross.

[C]

This has been the shortest episode of secondhand therapy.

[A]

Yeah. That and that, man, I struggle with that so much. So fudgeing much. That's what I'm dealing with right now, you know, is just not only making time for myself, but even just taking care of myself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I just don't. We talked about it. I don't know when it airs, but we talked about it a few episodes ago where it was just like, you know, I'm fine. I'll be fine. You know, no matter what's going on, what people need, I'll be fine. Don't worry about me. And that's directly from my mother, you know, And. Yeah, I don't know how to change that mindset of don't worry about me to like, I'm important and I should. I should care about me.

[C]

Well, it starts with rigorous honesty. Right. So.

[A]

So again, hard pass.

[C]

So I made a commitment, especially when I got sober, to never lie again. Does it ever? Do I ever? Yes, every once in a while. I could probably tell you the last three times I lied over the last five years. But it begins with rigorous honesty and the rigorous honesty with yourself. Right. So you might change that statement to be like, I might not be fine. Yeah. Right. Like, so. So if you're saying I'll be fine, like, you're not being honest with yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because you don't. You don't know that. Right. And so for me, like, everything in my life changed when I made a commitment to be an honest person through and through. Because what happens is, like, I'm married and I could maybe remember two times I lied to my wife, and now I like, immediately confess right afterwards. Because what that does is it, like, it gives you self worth. And I'm not calling you a liar, but my point is we do a lot of lying to ourselves about how we are and who we are. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, that takes away from our self worth because it takes away from our identity. So, like, in relationships, I would wear all these masks. I'm the coolest guy in the room. I'm like. I'm the Ken Gar. I'm, you know. Yeah. Well, inside I'm like this little kid, like, screaming for just attention and validation. Right? And so, like, once I got rid of those masks and once I started being honest with myself about who I am and being honest with my partners and the people around me, you know, like, yeah, life gets so much easier because you don't have to keep track of the lies. You have to keep track of, you know, you're not manipulating people to get a certain feeling. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and so for me, self worth, self value started with rigorous honesty with myself. Hey, I'm not. Okay. Yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm not doing well. I'm not. I'm not healthy right now. You know, I just had the conversation with my wife a couple of weeks ago. I'm not good right now. I'm in it right now. You know what I'm saying? And, like, because I want her to have all the information because I don't want her to feel insecure in our marriage, you know? So I'll be like, hey, you know, her father passed away in May of last year. And, like, that automatically put me into a caretaker role. Yeah, you gotta be careful with that, you know, because, like, then she could become my higher power versus my.

[A]

What is the bat? What do boundaries look like in that situation where you want to show up for somebody you want to help, but you also don't want to lose yourself in that?

[C]

So that's the difficult. Like, that's probably the most challenging thing about codependent recovery is, right? Like, so we're gonna preach, like, hey, like, be of service to other people, right? Well, how do you be of service without, like, losing yourself? Right? Here's the difference is the expectation in return, right? So, like, I did the dishes, I did the laundry. All I did was ask you to mop, and you couldn't mop, right? So, like. But the expectation is, I'm gonna do these dishes, I'm gonna do these lawn, this laundry, right? I'm gonna plan a date night. I'm gonna. I'm gonna plan our, you know, like, whatever that's gonna be of being of service to your part. I did this thing, now you do this. It's not. It's not quid. Pro quo.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Right. Now my hope is that I've picked a partner that wants to be a giver and do and be generous, which she is. Right?

[A]

Right.

[C]

So for me, it's like my dad told me years ago, he goes, you. You keep dating takers. He goes, there's givers and there's takers in this world, and you keep dating takers. You know, and so. And I kept giving, giving, giving because I'm people pleasing, I'm conflict avoidant. I'm like, they become my higher power. They become my source of self est. And of course they're like, you know, of course I'm not picking the healthy people for that because that, that would mean intimacy.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And we're trying to avoid intimacy at all costs. I just want you here next to me. That's my girlfriend. Girlfriend is status. I have a hot girlfriend. That means that I'm hot. That means that I'm. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, it's valid.

[C]

Versus, like, this is my partner, and she is a safe, you know, haven for me. And she is a supporter and she's generous and she's loving. Like, oh, that's scary. Cuz what if I lose that?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, my God. Right? And so I had to, literally, I.

[A]

I had to learn something new. I didn't know that part of it.

[C]

Right. You have to learn. You have to learn what intimacy is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And build it from the ground up. Because. And I won't speak for you, but I've been intimacy avoidant my whole life, you know, And. And as a, like a guy in your 20s, like, intimacy, that means sex right now. It has nothing to do with that. Yeah, right. It means, like, it means like last week, me wanting to have sex with my wife and her going, like, can we just cuddle? I mean, like, yeah, that sounds great. Versus, like, you know, like. Yeah, okay. That's what, that's what her needs and wants are right now, you know, and that's like, that's okay. Like, we're gonna, like, be okay or my. My wife, the sexiest thing I can do for her is fill her water bottle. Dude, I fill her a water bottle and she's just like, my man. Right? These little acts.

[A]

My God.

[C]

Right? These little acts that, like, you know, just these. These little. These little things that you do, you know, And I don't expect anything in return. I like, that's. Yeah, that's the critical part. But when you are in a healthy relationship, when you're with the right partner, like, they're not taking Advantage of that now when you're in your codependent state and maybe you're dating or married to toxic people, like. Yeah. Like, you're waiting on them hand and foot. And the power isn't. You know, the power in the relationship isn't balanced. Yeah. I have a balanced relationship.

[A]

Yeah. And I agree. Like, I. I think that love lives in the little things. Absolutely. It's. It's not these big, sweeping grand gestures or whatever. Love lives in little things.

[C]

No. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's so interesting about intimacy. I.

[C]

Just.

[A]

A few weeks ago, I was. I guess it's been almost a month now. I've been. I asked my therapist. I was like, what is love? Like, I don't. I don't even think I understand what love is. And that's so weird to think about as. I mean. I mean, I'm gonna be 43 this weekend. Yeah. So it's like I'm asking myself this now. I thought I. I thought I experienced it. I thought I had it. Maybe I did, you know, or had a piece of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I don't think that I have really known what love is because of the codependency and because of that.

[C]

Yeah. You know, we put walls up.

[A]

I know we talk about better help a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[B]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[A]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out because that has happened, I've been able to SW Therapist with no problem at all. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[A]

It's not a good fate. And that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[B]

And you're married now.

[A]

Oh, no. Never. Never.

[C]

You're in love now.

[A]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[B]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender.

[C]

Can I meet this person?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Let's do one together.

[A]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[B]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you?

[A]

Dude.

[B]

You think I'm not gonna walk out like the trophy?

[A]

I know you will.

[B]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor, and if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start. Maybe you don't have insurance like us. You can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com Secondhand therapy we love you guys.

[C]

We put walls up. We wear masks.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Everything is very calculated and very careful. Everything's planned out. We, we enmesh in these partners. These partners are usually, you know, sometimes alcoholics or sometimes very toxic or sometimes have mental illness or struggles. Right. Because, like, like, for me, dating a toxic person is easy because I know it's going to crash and burn.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And I know that, like, there's, there's no, like, there's no investment in it,

[A]

but for me, I feel like it might be the opposite. I feel like, oh, they're, they're not going to go anywhere. Like, they need me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They need me to help. Like, I'm here to help.

[C]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. And so, but once they're not going to leave. Yeah.

[C]

But then you fix them in Malone's repair shop, and then they're like, man, thanks a lot. And then they take off and you're like, well, what just happened?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, like, I always make this joke, like, I can't tell you how many resumes I've updated for, like, let's get your resume in order. Come on, let's get this. I'll send them out. I'll send out 50 resumes for you. You know, like, because once you get a job, like, you're gonna be built great, you know, like, yeah. You know, but, you know, love for me is safety and security in, in a healthy, balanced relationship. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's, I'm not staring at my phone wondering why my wife isn't responding. I'm not checking her Instagram to see who likes it. I'm not, I'm not.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All these insecure things that, that I had in the past because my wife is my sense of security and safety, but in a healthy way.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and we have, like, true intimacy together. You know, I, I, I'll, I'll get ahead of this thing. Sometimes I'll just tell her, hey, I'm feeling really crabby today. I just wanted to give you a heads up, you know, I don't know what's like, I'll figure it out, you know, But I might be very quiet or I might be, you know, But I wanted to just have all the information. Like at the end of the day, relationships are just an exchange of information. Yeah. That's all it is. Every single day I make a decision whether or not I'm going to continue to be her husband, you know, Every day. Just like she makes a decision every day whether or not she's going to be with my wife based on the information that we're sharing with each other.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? So like it's not, you know, it's not a choose your own adventure. It's not like, well, if you choose this, you know, like it's every day we make that choice. Yeah. To be together and, and build this relationship together, you know. But the intimacy was a very difficult thing for me to understand. And it's hard to have intimacy because it's such a, especially when you have no self worth or self that like value.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it's, it's a scary thing, you know, to put your trust in somebody because what if they leave or what if they hurt me or what if they.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and that could happen.

[A]

Yeah. How do you get over that part of it or that piece of it? Just knowing that like this person could destroy you.

[C]

Because you have self worth and self esteem now and you can go. Sometimes boys and girls don't make it or sometimes girls and girls are boys, whatever, you know, like. But sometimes, sometimes relationships end. You know what I mean? But because I, I have an identity and because I know who I am and because I have self worth, like, like I know that, you know, I'm gonna find a new partner and it's going to be okay. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Or I might just be okay on my own and that's going to be okay too. Whereas in the past when I was in my codependence and I was not well. Yeah. My whole world was crumbling. I drive by houses at 6am seeing if they're there still. I, like, I'm not, I'm embarrassed by some of these things that I, that I've done in the past. But like I was, you know, you literally lose your God. Like you literally, like, yeah. Even though, like there's there was relationships I was in where we would break up and I'd feel relief. I'd be like, oh God, it's over. Thank God. What's she doing right now? You know what I Mean, like, yeah. I mean, one. One girl, I broke up with her and she's just like, okay, well, let's just have breakfast. I'm. I'm like, yeah, we should have breakfast. I had just broken up with her.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But she's like, yeah, I'm not ready. And then she dumped me like, two days later because she didn't want me to be the one dumping. You know what I mean? It was just like. And that was like. That took me a long time to get over that relationship, you know, because it's just a pattern, dude. I mean, it's a pattern. Like I'm. I'm. I'm. I need a woman in my life to give me my self esteem. However, I'm not willing to give them intimacy, right. Because that's scary to me. And so now it's like the circle just kind of. The cycle repeats itself over and over again. Whereas, like, that only lasts so long because I've. I've built this wall. I've built this image of who I am. I'm the coolest guy in the whole world. Oh, my God, Ken Gar is so cool. He's supposed to, you know, hey, what's up? What's up? What's up? And then I. That only lasts so long.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean? And then all of a sudden, as my therapist said, he goes, the curtain comes down and you are who you are. And they're like, who's this guy? Wait, where's. What? Why are you insecure right now? Yeah. Oh, why are you, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Where's that cocky super Eric, you know, arrogant guy? Like, what? That's. That's. I'm like, no, this is me. Yeah. My wife knows I'm insecure. My wife knows that I'm, you know, sensitive. She knows my flaws. Yeah. You know, and that's. And that's okay, but, like, my wife and I were long distance for two years, and what is. What a blessing that was because it forced us to, like, be on the phone and like, build our relationship from the ground up. What are your likes and dislikes? What do you know as opposed to, like, you want to move in? You want to be together forever? Like, can I, you know, crawl inside, you know, like, like it for, you know, because. Because that's the, like, that's the easy part is like, you know, let's get. Let's hit the ground running. Yeah. You know, I'd. Right. I'd be. Hey, we should move in before the entrees. Got there on the first Date. Right. Just let's do. You know, you're always funny. You're like, yeah, we're just super chill. We're just hanging out. It's no big deal. Oh, yeah, yeah. We're just. I mean, it is what it. I told her I'm not really looking for anything. I was like, oh, my. It's whatever. It's another, you know, whatever.

[A]

We're just. We've been dating for three years.

[B]

That's what.

[C]

Yeah. I had to pick her kids up at school. But it's. It's chill. It's whatever. Sure, Mike.

[A]

Oh, that's so funny. I keep thinking about the lying thing you were talking about, and I find myself when I'm lying. The thing that I lie the most about. This is so dumb. The thing I lie the most about is prices.

[C]

Prices.

[A]

How much I pay for something because of the judgment that comes along with. I have such insecurity about money.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And the way people see me and, like, all those things that, like, do

[C]

you lower the price or increase price?

[A]

It depends.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Usually it's lower. Usually it's lower. And it's not by a lot. It's not like I, you know, I paid. You know, let's say I paid $25 for something.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not going to tell you I picked it up for 10, but I might tell you it was 20 bucks.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like something that makes it seem like it wasn't a bad idea. Whatever the number is that makes it seem like it wasn't a bad idea, that you're not gonna go, what the are you doing? That's the number I'll go with. You know, it's usually just a few dollars.

[C]

You know, what my sponsor said to me, and it. There's a lot of things out there that have kind of changed the direction of my life. But one thing he said to me was, your opinion of me is none of my business.

[A]

Oof.

[C]

So when you tell me that you're changing the price.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's because you're worried about what this person's opinion of you is.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[C]

There are people out there. I want you to hold on to something. There are people out there that do not like Ken Gar. I know.

[A]

That's crazy.

[C]

Insane, right?

[A]

I mean, I. I started that face.

[C]

Yeah. You're talking to the head, the president

[A]

of the fan club.

[C]

Anti. But, but, but, like. But that's a reality that I wasn't willing to live in.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Right. I have to be liked. Not just liked. But adored by everyone because I feel like such shit about myself. Yeah. And so I remember one of the last lies I told was this guy's. It's like the coolest guy ever. I mean, like, Lenny Kravitz Jr. Yeah. Right. And he goes, hey, man. He's like, I'm going, oh, what are you up to this weekend? I'm going. I'm going snowboarding. You board or ski? I'm like, yeah, I bored. I bored. I've never had either on my feet ever in my life. I'm like, I'm bored. And I'm like. I go, hey, man, I don't do either. I go, I don't know why I lied to you. He's like, really? I go, I don't know. You're just really cool. But. Yeah, but. Because, like, that little lie, right. Was going to. I'm going to give up my power right. To him. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because. Because now he's trying to bring you into this. He doesn't get to know the real me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's what this is about. This lying is about. I am. I feel like such a piece of. About who I am as a person that I'm not willing to let you know who the true person is, who the real Ken Gar is. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And. And it's like, now your opinion of me is none of my business. Yeah. I don't. You know, I'm. Yeah. I'm not here to, like, make the world happy. Like, all I'm trying to do is, like, be a good person. And I'll go on a little tangent here. If you want to truly understand codependence, watch the Office. Steve Carell's character, Michael Scott, is the most codependent person he is. I want to write, like, I want to do a podcast just on that. Just pull up scenes. Yeah.

[A]

Just dissect.

[C]

When he's dating Jan, you know, that's. That is a codependent relationship when he is, like, not willing to give the bad news to everyone because he's afraid of how. What people are going to think. Like, all Michael Scott cares about is what people think about him. And my whole life and every single day in my life is just a series of letting go of shit that doesn't matter. Right. And so, you know, I do it almost on an hourly basis where I just let stuff go, you know, And I just. I have to. Because. Because if I worry about what the whole world thinks about me, then I'm not going to live my own life. What kind of life is that?

[A]

How do you get there, though? How do you get to, you know, maybe somebody out there is listening and, you know, they're having problems with that. You know, how do you get to that point of being able to let go?

[C]

I did it through 12 step program.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. And so I, I. And it's a spiritual program. And this isn't about Jesus and God. This is about, like, I'm able to let go because I believe that there is something in this universe that is bigger than me. Right? And that I can have trust and faith in that thing, whatever that thing is. You can call it the universe, you can call it nature, you can call it God, you can call it Buddha, you can call it whatever you want to call it. But when I try to drive this machine, I end up crashing into a wall.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? And so I'm just able to let go. So I had this. I guess they call it the Awakening, Right? I'm driving down Ventura Boulevard one day and this guy cut me off. And I was like, I was in the middle of this whole journey. Yeah. And I got mad, you know? Then all of a sudden, another dude, I'm not even kidding you, 15 seconds later, cuts me off and we pull up to the red light and I put my arms up like this, and he gives me the finger. I don't know what happened after that. Like, I. I lost it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. So now we're driving and I'm riding his ass. And. And as soon as we get to the next red light, I pull up next to him and I'm taking my seatbelt off and I'm opening the door and. And there's. And he's looking at me and he blew through the red light. In my mind, I'm like, all right, when you get out of this car, you have to put your belt around your wrist because you're gonna punch through the window and you're gonna pull. Now, let me just be clear. I'm not a violent person. Right. I've been in two fights my whole life. They did not go well, right? But something about this moment. So I get my seatbelt off, and all of a sudden I hear this voice. I don't. I don't know what it was. And it just said, stop. And for the first time in my life, I just listened to the voice. I pulled over, I cried. Right? That voice has been in my mind for my whole life. Right? Don't get in the car. You've been drinking too much, right? Don't, you know, don't cheat on your girlfriend. Don't. What? What? Like, that voice has been there my whole life. And I'm like, no, no, no. I got this. Yeah. Letting go is no longer going. I've got this. It's going like, well, I'm gonna let go and just see what happens. So I listened to that voice for the first time, and I pulled over. I cried. I felt the feeling. I felt the rage. I let it dissipate, picked up the phone, I called somebody that could help me, and they just talked me off the ledge. And I just. But that from that moment on, I was just like, oh, that you can just let go of this stuff. Like, you don't. You are in charge of your reactions. You're in charge of, like, how you react to people.

[A]

Right?

[C]

So when people hurt my feelings, like, it doesn't have to be this. Like, just go feel it. Go sit in a corner and feel that feeling and let it go. Like, someone says to me. Someone said to me one time, like, it's just gonna pass through you. Like, I don't. You know, there's so many times where I want to be like, oh, my God. I used to get drunk and send emails, bro. Oh, my God.

[A]

No.

[C]

Oh, my God, bro. Like, and then one of the. And then I used to send text, but then I would delete the text. I'm so mad. And then I would delete the text, and I wake up the next day having no memory of it, and they're like, what are you talking about? Or they would respond to the text, and I don't know what they're responding to because I don't remember the text that I sent.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

But, like, I just. Like, you know, there's You. You let go because you know that play it. Play it through your head. Like, how does this end for you? Yeah, it ends with you not feeling great. Yeah.

[B]

You know how I keep telling you I'm doing a psychology class? Doing it.

[C]

I.

[A]

Okay. Are you really?

[B]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University,

[A]

found some classes, bro. Oh, you fancy. Now I'm out here. He. He's a schoolboy.

[B]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me, and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes. Snhu. Go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career, you want to start a new thing. Snhu. What about you?

[A]

I mean, I love to learn.

[B]

Oh, God, he's never learned.

[A]

I need to. I need to do it more officially.

[B]

You never learned a thing. Anyway, if you want to check out SNHU and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu. Edu Sht and you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast, learn some stuff, start a new career, do whatever you need.

[A]

Go back to school.

[B]

Snhu. Edu Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info, start some learning. You're welcome.

[A]

Yeah, I just struggle so much with, like letting go and I don't know what it is. Like, if I'm hurt, I want you to know that I'm hurt. And that doesn't do anything. You know what I mean? Like, what does that do?

[C]

But what I. Yeah, exactly. So what, what I would say is, so I developed a bunch of survival skills in my childhood, right. That served no purpose in my adulthood. Yeah, right. I grew up in a family where. And I have very loving, amazing parents. Right. I really, truly do. But we weren't allowed to discuss our feelings, really. Like, I can't be like, I'm mad at you, mom. She did not care. I am the mother.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

And so I kind of grew up like very shielded in regards to sharing my emotions. And so you develop some of these survival skills of people pleasing, of conflict, avoidant, of like, like just, just to survive. Yeah, right. You get into adulthood and like, that doesn't serve a purpose anymore. So I went through a 12 step program that helps me have the tools. So you and I get into a conflict. You and I were talking about this the other day, right? You, you canceled plans last Friday or something like that. When people cancel plans on me. Right. I take it personally at first because now I have to deal with the fact that I have to find something else to do. Right now most people, normal people in the world, be like, yeah, man, just go play some video games, go to a movie, go to. But me, it's just like, now what. You know what I mean? And so like, oh, man, am I mad at Michael. I can't believe he's so flaky. Oh my God, I hate when he, you know. Yeah, he doesn't really want to be my friend. I've been here in Las Vegas for six weeks and he doesn't want to hang. None of this is true, right? But this is, this is the initial thoughts in my brain.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Now if I were to react to that. Right. Which a lot of codependents do they react to that? Mike, this. You're. This sucks, dude. Why would. You know, I was really looking forward to that. Whatever. Right. Or I can just wait. You know, I can journal. I can call another codependent and say, these are my feelings. I can pray, I can meditate. I can just sit there. Yeah. And think about all the great things that we have about our friendship. Michael loves me. Michael's one of my closest friends. Michael works during the day. I don't. Right. I work at night. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, Michael's got a lot going on. Like. Like, but you'd go 10, 15 years ago, you would have got that. Not only that, I would have gotten drunk that night and then sent. Fired off that. Yeah. I guess I need the liquid courage to be able to, you know. And now I'm standing up for myself. And that's another gray area in codependence. Like the difference between standing up for yourself and Am I being a bitch right now? Right, right. That's a. That's a huge thing that. That's that gray area where am I being conflict, avoidant or like, do I need to stand up for myself? Yeah, stand up for yourself in a couple of days. Right. Like, meaning like. Like, like my. I know that my initial reaction to like, somebody said this once, and I love this. I have an inappropriate reaction to life. I love that. That's another thing that changed my whole perspective on things. I have an inappropriate reaction to life. Meaning when something happens, Michael cancels our day together. My initial reaction is probably wrong or extremely exponential. It's bigger than it needs to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. And so I need to get that thought from the sick part of my brain to the healthy part of my brain which has the self esteem and has the self worth and be like, this doesn't end your friendship with Michael. And people think how dramatic this is. But that's truly like, oh, yeah.

[A]

Every. Yeah. Every kind of conflict. It's like, oh, this is over. Like, this person will never.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

Whether it's an employer, a relationship, or a friendship, whatever it is, it's like, oh, they're gone. They hate me. They will never speak to me again.

[C]

Like, that's the codependency.

[A]

Any. And it goes all the way down. If somebody's just like, hey, we need to talk later. Oh, that's it. I'm on the chopping block. Dog, bro, dog. We're. I'm Done here?

[C]

Yeah, I'm.

[A]

I start packing up.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

It was like, oh, I just need to tell you that we needed to blah, blah, blah, blah.

[C]

And you're like, oh, so one of my. Here's. Here's a great story. So, comedy club having their Christmas party. Jen, my wife has to work the next day. So she. So I go, hey, I got a Christmas party tonight. I think we just, we started dating, you know, and she goes, okay. She's like, well, can we leave by 10 o' clock? Because I have to work tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Now with my first wife, I go, absolutely. Yeah, we're leaving at 10. That sounds great. You know, and of course, I start drinking and I don't want to go anywhere because I'm hanging out my friends, we're at the comedy club. The booker might book me all these things. Right, right. And ten o', clock, she's like, hey, do you want to go? I'm like, no. Biggest fight I ever got into with my ex wife was on. Thanks. The night before Thanksgiving, we were at a bar and she's trying to drag me out of the bar and I was just like, lost it. Flipped it. So I. I know that, like, I'm going to be rigorously honest and as scary as it is to say to my wife, who's, you know, my now wife, I said, hey, I don't know if I can leave by 10 o', clock, so would it be okay if maybe I just went to this Christmas party by myself? That's scary.

[A]

Yeah. I'm already like, hey, don't say that.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

I'm like, hey, now, if you're a

[C]

normal person, you think I'm a weirdo right now, and that's okay. But like, to a codependent person, this is a scary thing because what if she gets mad? And what if. What if.

[A]

Can we time out real quick? Like the amount of times that I just say yes to things because it's so hard to say no. Hey, you want to go to the store? Yep. Hey, you wanted to do. Yep. No, I don't.

[C]

And then you sit and then you start a podcast going, like, who am I As a person? Yeah, because you're just trying to be the person that everybody else wants you to be.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[C]

And so that's another thing I tell sponsors, I go make decisions. So back in the old days at grocery stores, you go, you want paper or plastic? Don't go, whatever. I want plastic. You know. You know, like make, you know, where do you want to eat today? I want to Eat at Jimmy John's. I want to eat, like, make decisions. Oh, we can go wherever. Because that's what happens in these relationships where you're just like, I'm so chill. I'm so cool. I'm so like, what movie you want to see? I don't care. Whatever movie. And then you go, I can't tell you how many movies I saw Titanic, like three times in the theater because I went on like three different dates and I didn't have like, I already saw it, I couldn't say. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So Jen goes, I go to Jen, I says, would it be okay if you didn't go? And she's like, oh, you don't want to leave by 10? I go, I don't want to commit to leaving by 10. Because I know in the past I've done that, you know, and I don't want to do that. So she goes, yeah, no problem. Yeah, no problem.

[A]

Yeah, no problem.

[C]

Because I'm with a healthy person. I'm not with an insecure person who's like, why you want to go without me? Da da, da, da. And so I go to the party. Guess what time I left?

[A]

10.

[C]

10. Not because I felt bad, but because like, oh, there's not really much going on here. And I want to go hang out with my one day wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, it was just. And it really was like that. It was just like another example was she came to Vegas. I'm performing in Vegas, and we hadn't seen each other long distance. You know, we hadn't seen each other probably in a month, maybe. Yeah, two or three weeks. I don't know. I gotta take a nap before the show. Right. But now my codependence is like, you haven't seen her for a couple weeks. She flew all this way to see you? Like. Yeah. And I go to her, go, hey. I go, I know it's gonna sound weird. I'm like, but I gotta take a nap. And she's a normal person. She's like, okay, take a nap. But to a codependent person, you're like, she's gonna get so mad. She's gonna be so mad at me. Yeah. I flew all this way and if you're with a toxic person or if you're in the wrong relationship. Yeah. They say those things.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Jen never brings up the past. She's never, she, she never does that. Well, you did this. Never. Right? Dude, When I'm like, I'm mad, she goes, oh, I'm. First of all, I'M sorry. And second of all, what happened now when we. When my wife and I have conflict, to me, it. I know that the center of the conflict is that we are not communicating correctly. That is it. Yeah. Because she loves me, and she is my safety net. She is my source of. Of security and safety. That. That I. I don't question.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So if there's something wrong, we're not jiving on the communication front. I'm not giving her the information or she's not giving me the information. That's all we got to figure out.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Anytime her and I argue. It's not even an argument. It's just like, what's going on here? What do we. Oh, you did the. Oh, because I. I said that and you. Okay, gotcha.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. In the future, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, that works for us. That's it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Now, what you have to do if you want to recover from this is start saying the things that are hard to say. Yeah. Number one, that builds intimacy with that person, whether it's a friend, whether it's. You know what I'm saying? So if you're feeling the feeling, first of all, give it a minute. Right. I'm mad at so and so. Okay, let's give it a minute. Give it a day. Give it a day. You know, call somebody, journal about it, pray about it, meditate about it, do something. But, like, get it to that side of the brain that maybe has a little bit of logic, reason, serenity, peace. You know what I'm saying? If you have to say the thing you have to say, then, like, do it. Do it with kindness. Hey, man, I want to talk to you about this thing. It's been bothering me for a couple of days. You know, you said such and such, and I just want to understand that a little bit. Yeah. You know, my dad said to me, when you fall off the wagon, I want you to remember, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, we're gonna sit with that for a minute. And I did. I sat with it for a minute. I called a buddy in. In aa, my other program, and I said, man, this is. Well, talk to him. I said, dad, I go, man, you've really bothered me. The other day. You're my hero. And you said, when you fall off the wagon, I'm so sorry. He goes, most of the people that I know at some point have. And he goes, that's just my experience with it. That doesn't mean you're going to. And I'm, you know, What?

[A]

I mean, like, yeah, we had this

[C]

intimate moment with my father. My father was the kind of guy who's, you know, my mom was like, wait till your father gets home. He came in swinging. My father didn't beat me. He was very fair and inappropriate with his punishments, but, like, he was the. You know, the guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. You know, mom wasn't spanking us. You got to wait till dad gets home in 24 hours, so think about that. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I'm not going to. I'm not gonna paint this picture of my dad as being anything but a great dad, but he was dishing out the punishment, you know what I'm saying? And so for me to have that intimate moment with him and be like, it really bothered me was a very scary thing to do because you don't tell your father that hurt my feelings. Like, he gets to hurt my feelings. He's my father.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No, no. Not when you become an adult, you know, and you can just have these. And that's. And you do these little moments of intimacy, and you build up the self esteem and the self worth and, oh, wow, I can stick up for myself and, wow. I can share my feelings with people or, you know what? Someone who loves me is mad at me, and that's okay. That's okay. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[A]

I had a moment like that with a family member recently. I was just feeling. I was feeling some feelings for a while.

[C]

Mm.

[A]

And, you know, addiction runs in my family, and I kept getting lumped in with the people with the addictions.

[C]

Oh. Yeah.

[A]

And I've tried my hardest to not be in that group, but because I'm, quote, unquote different from everybody else in the family because I do comedy and I do that, you know, Like, I.

[C]

Why aren't you working at the factory?

[A]

Exactly. We work. Yeah. I'm not doing the things that everybody else is doing or that they, you know, whatever. I get lumped in with the others. And, yeah, this. This over. I think over the holidays, it was the first time I stuck up for myself, and I was like, hey, I'm not like them. And I've spent my whole life trying not to be like them. And that's hurtful that you think that I am.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, how'd they react? Don't do that anymore.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So sorry. I didn't know that I was doing that. You know. That's right. I love you. And, you know.

[C]

Yeah. How'd you feel afterwards?

[A]

Great.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Incredible.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It was like, oh, okay. Because this. This person Also, like, had a lot of power over.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and, you know, it's an elder and this and that, and it's, I don't have a lot of family left. Whatever. And so it was like, oh, this is terrifying.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was one of those moments like you, you know, you, you say what you say and you're like, however this ends.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's how it ends.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This person might be mad at me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And those are new feelings for me. Is this person might be mad at me or this person might be upset or this might not Right. Be perfect. Or they might see me in a way that's not presentable.

[C]

Wait till, wait till I tell them how much I got this T shirt for.

[A]

Still really hate me, bro. They'll be like, this guy's gotta go.

[C]

A lot of times I, I say right before I just have this conversation, I go, here we go. And it's a leap of faith.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

At first it's like, here we go. I know if I don't say this to my wife that I'm gonna be passive aggressive with her.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, why is there pulp in this orange juice? You know that kind of. And I know that, like, I, I, here we go. I gotta say this thing. And a lot of times I'll say to Jen, I go, I gotta say this thing right now. And she goes, okay, here we go. You know what I mean? And so, like, but like, I, I have to say, you know, I have to. Now I've done some work behind it. Yeah. Am I being, am I. Is my reaction justified? Is it fair? You know what I mean? What's my part in this? Right. Could I have done, you know, I mean, so, like, but, but these knee jerk reactions, they don't serve a purpose anymore because usually they're destructive.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I can't tell you how many relationships I've blown up just because, like, you know, I didn't want to have that intimacy. I didn't want to have that tough conversation.

[A]

Yeah. My last relationship was probably my healthiest one because I, not only were they great, but also that I was for the first time having moments like that where it's like, hey, I need to say something right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know? And she's like, okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like. And she's like, all right. And it was like one of those things where never would I ever, in, in past relationships, it's just gonna go be hurt for a little while. Don't let them see you and then be passive aggressive or hold that Resentment in. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

[C]

And it just builds like. It just builds like a cancer inside you.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. And, you know, and then little things trip you up. Yeah. Like, you're right. Yeah.

[C]

And you. You, you. You. You pulled that from your childhood. Yeah. I'm not able to say this thing to my mom or dad. I'm not able to share my feelings. And so, like, we grow up not sharing our feelings and not having intimacy and not. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. That's exactly what it was like. I could talk to my mother, but it was also one of those things where if it came to hurt feelings or sadness or anything like that, it was, well, there's nothing we can do about it, so let's keep it moving.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's where that comes from. I could tell her anything. And we could. We could, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We could have conversations, but what are we going to do about it? Nothing to do about it. So.

[C]

So stop crying. Yeah.

[A]

Keep moving. Let's go. Or we make a joke and keep. Keep it. Keep it pushing.

[C]

Yeah. These aren't the beaches of Normandy. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[C]

Like, we can, you know.

[A]

Yeah. We got. We got time.

[C]

Yeah. But. But what I will say to you is, like, in those moments where I have to say, I have to have this discussion with my wife or whoever. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I've done the work beforehand to make sure that I'm not overreacting. I've have. I've felt the feeling. But now I want to correct the course so that I don't have to go through this and we don't have to go through this, and I want to have this intimate moment with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? But there's this idea that I have to parent myself. I have to parent the little kid in me because the little kid in me doesn't want to say this scary thing.

[A]

Oof.

[C]

So adult 10 has to come in and go, all right, guy, come sit on my lap. Yeah, let's have a talk, little man. You know, you've been feeling like this for a couple of days, a couple of hours, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You've done the work. You checked in with your higher power. You called us. You called a guy. You know, like you did. You did the things. And you know what? You don't really want to feel like this, and this isn't the kind of relationship you want to have with this person. So we're going to have this talk, and it's going to be okay. And it's going to be okay. You know what I mean?

[A]

Hey, Hard pass.

[C]

And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear.

[B]

It's not.