Secondhand Therapy – Episode #120

"Codependency Is Controlling Your Relationships (And You Don’t See It)"

Released: March 2, 2026
Hosts: Louie Paoletti, Michael Malone
Guest: Ken Gar

Episode Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy dives deep into the realities of codependency, how it subtly controls relationships, and the messy process of recognizing and healing from it. Hosts Louie and Michael, joined by recurring guest Ken Gar, blend humor with raw honesty as they unpack their personal therapy journeys, share stories of self-sabotage, and reflect on building healthier connections. Together, they explore codependency’s roots, why letting go is so hard, and practical steps toward emotional growth.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Codependency & Personal Experience

• Ken’s Story: Ken shares how he was introduced to Codependents Anonymous (CoDA) in therapy and initially resisted the idea before a bad breakup motivated him to attend a meeting. Sitting among others who understood his struggles was transformative.

  “The minute I sat down, I was like, these are my people. This is my language.” (06:32)

• Addiction Parallel: Ken emphasizes that codependency is an addiction, just like alcoholism, except the 'drug' is people and relationships, not substances.

  “You make people your higher power.” (12:49)

• Self-Worth Issues: Both hosts discuss how much they tie their value to others’ approval or presence.

2. 12 Step Recovery & the Value of a Sponsor

• Importance of Steps: Michael struggles with understanding some of the 12 steps, particularly those involving making amends, fearing it may harm others or reopen old wounds.
• Role of a Sponsor: Ken stresses the necessity of a sponsor to guide you through the program, cautioning against lone-wolf attempts for codependents who already struggle with asking for help.

  “You can't do this alone. You have to get a sponsor.” (08:23)

• Chronology of Steps: The steps are designed so that when you reach the 'scary ones,' you’re emotionally prepared.

  “It’s the miracle of the program... by the time you get to that level, you’re like, oh, I’m ready.” (08:26)

3. Honesty and Self-Reflection

• Rigorous Honesty: Ken attributes much personal growth to committing to “rigorous honesty,” both with himself and others.

  “Everything in my life changed when I made a commitment to be an honest person through and through.” (15:35)

• Self-Lies: Much codependency is rooted in self-deception: pretending to be fine, hiding behind masks of confidence, or shaping oneself to be adored.
• Letting Partners See the Real You: As Ken learned, “My wife knows I’m insecure, she knows my flaws, and that’s okay.” (28:29)

4. How Codependency Shows Up in Relationships

• People Pleasing & Conflict Avoidance: Codependents often avoid conflict at all costs, even if it means lying or swallowing their needs.
• Partners as Projects:

  “My partners weren’t partners, they were projects.” – Ken (12:25)

• Expectations in Service: Ken discusses the subtle difference between service and keeping score. If you’re doing to get, you’re still trapped by codependency.

  “It’s not quid pro quo... my hope is that I picked a partner that wants to be a giver too.” (18:11)

• Safety vs. Intimacy: Many codependents confuse a partner’s presence with real intimacy and security.

5. Intimacy, Boundaries, and Healthy Love

• Learning True Intimacy: Intimacy is not just sex, but emotional vulnerability and small, meaningful acts. Learning to exist with someone in honesty is the heart of grown-up love.

  “Love for me is safety and security in a healthy, balanced relationship.” (24:02)

• Small Acts Matter:

  “The sexiest thing I can do for my wife is fill her water bottle... these little acts.” – Ken (20:05)

• Setting Boundaries: Ken describes learning to make and communicate decisions honestly—no more “whatever you want.”

6. The Struggle to Let Go & Detach

• Letting Go: Ken shares a powerful story about learning to let feelings pass, recounting a near road rage incident where he “just listened to the voice that said: stop.”

  “You are in charge of your reactions. Go sit in a corner and feel that feeling and let it go.” (37:23)

• Survival Skills from Childhood: Many patterns originate in families where feelings weren’t discussed or needs weren’t met.
• Handling Conflict Without Destruction: The need for everything to be “okay” or “perfect” leads to either suppressing feelings or blowing up relationships.

7. Building Self-Esteem & Facing Conflict

• Small Steps Toward Vulnerability: Both hosts and Ken describe moments of sticking up for themselves, risking rejection or conflict—and finding relief when they survived it.

  “I was terrified—but I felt incredible after standing up for myself.” – Michael (52:59)

• Self-Parenting: Ken explains the need to “parent the little kid inside” with compassion, especially when preparing to have hard conversations.

  “You have to parent the little kid in you... adult Ken has to step in and say: it’s okay to say the scary thing.” (57:05)

• Delay Reactivity:

  “Give it a minute. Journal. Pray. Get the feeling from the sick part of your brain to the healthy part.” (48:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On controlling and fixing:

  “My partners weren't partners, they were projects.” – Ken (12:25)

• On honesty:

  “Your opinion of me is none of my business.” – Ken quoting his sponsor (31:13)

• On codependent panic:

  “If somebody’s like ‘we need to talk later,’ that’s it, I’m on the chopping block. I start packing up.” – Michael (44:01)

• On everyday decisions:

  “Paper or plastic? Don’t say ‘whatever.’ Decide. Make decisions.” – Ken, on practicing self-expression (46:00)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 06:32 – Ken's “aha” moment at first CoDA meeting
• 08:23 – Need for a sponsor in codependent recovery
• 12:49 – Defining people as your higher power/addiction
• 15:02 – The struggle with rigorous honesty
• 18:11 – Givers, takers, and not expecting in return
• 24:02 – What healthy love and security feel like
• 31:13 – “Your opinion of me is none of my business.”
• 37:23 – Ken’s story about letting go of anger
• 46:00 – Making decisions to build self-worth
• 52:59 – Michael stands up for himself with family
• 57:05 – Ken on self-parenting and preparing for hard talks

Takeaway Lessons

• Codependency is sneaky, persistent, and shapes relationships in ways we might not see.
• Healing it requires a blend of honesty, support (especially via sponsors and a recovery community), willingness to sit in discomfort, and practicing direct communication.
• Real intimacy comes through small consistent acts and honest conversations, not big gestures.
• Setting boundaries and making decisions are acts of self-worth.
• Letting go and feeling your feelings is vital—even if the urge to control or fix is overwhelming.

In their own honest, self-mocking and deeply human way, the Secondhand Therapy crew remind us: Codependency is common, recovery is possible, and real relationships start with showing up messy and true.

For anyone who suspects their “helping” is costing them, or who feels the anxiety of being needed, this episode is equal parts comfort and challenge.