Do Not Have Needs. Ever. | #101

Summary

Secondhand Therapy – Ep. 101: "Do Not Have Needs. Ever."

Date: September 29, 2025
Hosts: Michael Malone & Scott
Podcast by: PonyBear Studios

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Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy dives into the messy terrain of needs, boundaries, codependency, and emotional growth—sprinkled with humor and vulnerability. Louie Paoletti (not present this episode) and Michael Malone candidly process insights from their therapy journeys, focusing on how childhood patterns around needs, emotional expression, and codependency shape adult relationships. The conversation weaves personal stories, therapy realizations, and genuine emotional moments, especially around self-worth, accountability, and the fear of rupture in relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Interplay of Desire, Influence, and Boundaries

• Control in Relationships:
  Scott accuses Michael of subtly influencing decisions in their friendship, not as overt bullying, but as gentle steering:

  “You'll try to talk people out of their own decision by… you’ll just ask questions until you get them where you're at.” – Scott (06:00)

• Desire vs. Aversion:
  Michael reflects he rarely has strong desires; more often, he avoids what he doesn't want:

  “I don't find that I have that many desires... It's not a what you want to do, it's what you don’t want to do. That’s what you spin.” – Scott and Michael (07:08)

• Pushing Others’ Boundaries:
  A playful moment with Michael’s girlfriend becomes a learning experience about how “innocent” actions can trigger deep-seated reactions, related to past trauma (10:08–15:00).

2. Partner Dynamics: Repairing After Conflict

• Recognizing the Trigger:
  Michael describes a household incident where playfulness turned hurtful for his girlfriend, realizing her nervous system responded to past trauma despite knowing she was safe (11:17–13:00).
• Handling Conflict Maturity:
  Both took space to “cool off” before calmly coming together to discuss accountability (15:10–16:34):

  “We talked calmly... I shouldn't have done that. But also, you don't get to talk to me the way you did just because you're in an emotional place… So we were both accountable for what happened.” – Michael (15:38)

• Taking a Timeout:
  Michael admits it's hard for him to walk away, but he recognizes the value of pausing:

  “Not ideal. I like to hammer that out right now. But I’ve learned sometimes we need to take a little space… because everyone’s heightened.” (16:42)

3. Gendered Safety and Bodily Autonomy

• Michael confronts a new perspective: as a man, he’s never felt fundamentally unsafe from being physically overpowered—unlike many women.

  “As a man, I’m never going to know what it’s like… your body always knows that because women exist in that place…” (18:29–18:51)

• Scott expands the idea to safety online, referencing women's experiences with harassment (19:00–20:00).

4. Codependency & Emotional Needs: Coda and Family Patterns

• Scott’s Coda Reflections:
  Scott describes attending Codependents Anonymous (CoDA), focusing on low self-esteem and inherited family dynamics, especially growing up with addiction in the household (26:00–31:00).
  • Memorable share:

    “Worked so hard on protecting the relationship that I didn’t give love.” – (27:53)

  • Big Realization:

    “Trying to fix others is a need for control. …It was always trying to control the outcome or the emotions or the situation…” – Scott (28:49–30:02)

• Abandonment and the Fear of Rupture:
  Scott vulnerably shares that when conflict arises, he feels he’s “not worthy of repair”—it's safer to avoid rupture than risk being left (32:45–33:10).
  • Emotional moment:

    “I’m not worth it, man. So if there’s a rupture, you’re gone… you’re not worthy of the repair.” – Scott (32:45–33:07)

5. Internalizing Family Messages: The Codependent’s Creed

Scott rattles off ingrained “rules” from growing up with addiction and codependency (40:11–45:03):

• Don’t express feelings.
• Be good, be nice, wear a smile-mask.
• Be needless (only the addict’s needs get met).
• Live to avoid conflict.
• Remain loyal at all costs; never leave.
• Don’t get angry/upset; internalize it always.
• The hosts break down how these play out in adulthood (e.g., people-pleasing, fear of asking for help, resistance to accountability).

6. The Value of “No” as a Need

• Michael articulates a powerful insight:

  “No is a need. …That’s a wild principle. That makes perfect sense.” (44:52–45:00)

• Both reflect on rarely being allowed or able to say “no”—either out of fear of conflict, disappointment, or conditioned helplessness.

7. Loyalty, Guilt, and Addictive Family Systems

• Never leaving, feeling responsible:
  Scott discusses the burden of always remaining loyal, especially with family patterns of addiction—fearing that leaving means being guilted, manipulated, or accused of causing harm (51:15–53:14).

8. Accountability as Connection

• Realization that avoiding accountability is a strategy to protect against abandonment, but it simultaneously blocks true connection:

  “Avoiding accountability is a way of keeping yourself safe… but it makes it hard to have genuine connections with people.” – Michael (50:35)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Subtle Manipulation:
  “You'll try to talk people out of their own decision by… you’ll just ask questions until you get them where you're at.”
  — Scott (06:00)

• On Childhood Messages:
  “Nothing we can do about it. So don't bother. No reason feeling sad. ... Nobody likes your emotions.”
  — Scott (41:41–42:15)

• On Codependent Loyalty:
  “Remain loyal at all costs. Never leave.”
  — Scott (51:15)

• On Being Worthy of Repair:
  “I am not...I don't feel worthy of the rupture … I’m not worth it, man. So if there’s a rupture, you’re gone.”
  — Scott (32:45–33:07)

• On Emotional Discovery:
  “That was a real life or real-time discovery there about being worthy of repair, buddy. Yeah. Never said that out loud. Didn’t like it.”
  — Scott (36:02)

• On the Power of 'No':
  “No is a need. That’s a wild principle. That makes perfect sense.”
  — Michael Malone (44:52–45:00)

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Emotional Arc & Highlights

• Scott has a Major Breakthrough:
  He breaks down mid-episode (32:14–33:10), voicing his deep-seated fear of not being worth repairing a relationship rupture and admitting, “Never said that out loud. Didn’t like it.”
• Michael Models Gentle Inquiry:
  Throughout, Michael grounds emotional moments with humor while encouraging honest reflection.
• Mutual Support:
  Both hosts repeatedly express gratitude for the safety to discuss emotionally charged topics openly—offering listeners a model of transparent, supportive male friendship.

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Segment Timestamps

• [04:44] Start of Main Discussion
• [06:00] Discussing Influence/Control in Relationships
• [10:08] Michael’s Story: Girlfriend Conflict & Personal Reflection
• [15:10] How They Handled Relationship Conflict (Accountability/Repair)
• [18:29] Gender, Safety, & Bodily Autonomy
• [26:00] Scott’s Codependents Anonymous (CoDA) Takeaways
• [27:53] “Protecting the relationship” vs. “giving love”
• [32:45] Scott’s Breakdown: Not Feeling Worthy of Repair
• [40:11] Family Messages: The Codependent’s Creed
• [44:52] “No is a need.”
• [51:15] Remaining Loyal: Never Leave
• [55:36] Episode Wrap-up

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Tone and Style

The episode is a raw, honest, and frequently hilarious look at emotional baggage, shared from the perspective of two friends with no formal credentials—just hard-earned insight and love for the process of growth. Moments of deep vulnerability are consistently interwoven with quips, gentle roasting, and self-deprecation, which keeps the conversation both illuminating and approachable.

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Summary Takeaways

• The ways we learn (or are forbidden) to have needs in our families reverberate throughout our adult lives, especially in relationships.
• Conflict, accountability, and the freedom to say “no” are all tied to feelings of self-worth, safety, and loyalty.
• Genuine healing happens in the messy, funny, and sometimes gut-wrenching middle ground—where needs are named, boundaries are tried, tears are shed, and both laughter and learning are abundant.

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Transcript

[Michael Malone]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Jesus.

[Scott]

That's a bear.

[Michael Malone]

It's not. Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[Scott]

Right.

[Michael Malone]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use BetterHelp recently?

[Scott]

Yes, I have. I just signed up.

[Michael Malone]

How'd it go?

[Scott]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch, like a. There's like, two or three pages of people that I got to choose from, and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

[Guest]

Nice.

[Michael Malone]

Have you used their journal feature?

[Scott]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[Michael Malone]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better help's a good option, and they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Get in therapy. You know, it's great.

[Scott]

Check it out.

[Michael Malone]

Wake up. It's time to podcast.

[Scott]

It's time to podcast, baby.

[Michael Malone]

I don't even know if they could have heard your yawn.

[Scott]

Probably not.

[Michael Malone]

Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy, my little bear cubs.

[Scott]

You're here. We're here. Let's do it. Wow.

[Michael Malone]

We need to remind you that we are not therapists.

[Scott]

That's right.

[Michael Malone]

We are not experts. No, this is not a substitute for therapy. And this is not professional advice in any way.

[Scott]

God, no. What?

[Michael Malone]

I just had a quest bar. I'm a little flemmy. Sorry.

[Scott]

Keep it to yourself.

[Michael Malone]

I'm trying, but I might be clearing my throat throughout this episode as I do every other episode. I'm starting to notice.

[Scott]

I got something to clear your throat.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Is it a memory of your mother?

[Scott]

I was gonna say some water.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, thanks. I don't know. I thought we were talking. Sorry about that. Oopie.

[Scott]

You're gonna Hear some ads.

[Michael Malone]

Oopie. You're gonna hear some ads. And if you want to bring his mother back to life, go to Patreon, please.

[Scott]

I need it.

[Michael Malone]

Patreon.Com secondhand therapy pod. It's a great way to support the podcast if you like what we're doing. We appreciate ya going over to Patreon first. Here you get early episodes and ad free episodes.

[Scott]

No ads, baby.

[Michael Malone]

And then there's a second tier where you get early episodes and ad free episodes. You also get access to our other podcasts.

[Scott]

There's a whole other podcast, the other show.

[Michael Malone]

You also get the after the pods, you get all the bonus clips. You get ASMR readings. You get all kinds of stuff.

[Scott]

Over there, you get a lot of stuff.

[Michael Malone]

There's also a third tier. If you want to do some live streams and actually hang out with us and have a conversation with us. We got hangs.

[Scott]

We got Google hangs, dog.

[Michael Malone]

Google hangs. We be chit chatting.

[Scott]

We be chatting.

[Michael Malone]

We also have merch available. Secondhand therapy pod.

[Scott]

You can contact us, send us mail, physical mail, postcards.

[Michael Malone]

Was I done talking about merch? No, let's talk about mail. Let's talk about thing that makes us no money, please. Mail. I have to spend gas to go check the P.O. box.

[Scott]

Getting mail.

[Michael Malone]

Good for you. When's the last time you checked the P.O. box?

[Scott]

I'm not allowed to check the P.O.

[Guest]

Box.

[Michael Malone]

You have a key to it.

[Scott]

I do.

[Michael Malone]

Are you being serious? Not rhetorical.

[Scott]

It's hoodie season, everybody. There's new hoodies up on our. You can get merch. And if you're a member of Patreon, you get merch discounts. And we're working on tie dye, hoodies and all. Oh, and there's a new Vasectomy Farms shirt. It.

[Michael Malone]

It's.

[Scott]

It's black. It's cool. Head on over there.

[Michael Malone]

You better play the fucking music because I am upset.

[Scott]

Episode 101. Enjoy.

[Michael Malone]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Scott]

And welcome back Secondhand therapy. And we know that.

[Michael Malone]

And then my therapist said, you don't strike me as a kind of guy that just thinks he can do whatever he wants with people. And that was refreshing to hear.

[Scott]

Really?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

What, you disagree?

[Scott]

I think she's wrong. Yeah, go on.

[Michael Malone]

So you think like, what, like between you and I, do you think like, I bully you if you're like, hey, I don't want to go swimming. I'm like, in that fucking pool.

[Scott]

No, but I think that you. I think that you get your way a lot.

[Guest]

Mmm.

[Scott]

So I don't know if it's. I don't consider, like, bullying, but, yeah, I think that, yeah, you get what you want and. Because. Can I give, like, an example?

[Michael Malone]

As long as it doesn't have to do with our business.

[Scott]

Sure. No, no.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Because if it's one of those things, you're like, I brought you this hoodie with a lobster on. I was like, yeah, we're not selling that. Okay, go ahead.

[Scott]

No, but you'll try to. You'll try to. I've. Not only with me, but with other people. You'll try to talk people out of their own decision by. You'll just ask questions until you get them to where you're at, and then. Then. Then it's. Then we're where you want to be.

[Michael Malone]

Interesting.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And what's the benefit to me in.

[Scott]

That you get what you want, which.

[Michael Malone]

Is for you to make a different decision?

[Scott]

No, sometimes I'm talking about me making this. I'm talking about. Well, sometimes.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

But also.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

If you want to do whatever it is, Whatever you're trying to gain or whatever, like, you're gonna get it interesting. Most times.

[Michael Malone]

Lucky me.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Nice. Anyway, so what happened was you don't feel that way. I don't know. I never thought about it.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

My mind went to, like, when you and I have things, like, you get excited about things so quickly, and I have to be like, okay, well, look at it like this. Like, it. It doesn't make sense.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Michael Malone]

And I'm able. I'm able to get there quicker than you. That's where my mind went. I also don't. I don't. I don't know. And this could be something I should think about. I don't find that I have that many desires of, like, what I want to get or what I want to happen.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

It's not a. It's not a what you want to do. It's what you don't want to do. That's what you spin.

[Michael Malone]

So if I don't want to do something, I find a way to get everybody on board with me not wanting to do it.

[Scott]

Yeah, you're interesting.

[Guest]

Yeah. You'll.

[Scott]

You'll talk it out of them to either do the thing you want to do or not do it at all or to let you off the hook from doing it.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, I don't need to be let off a hook.

[Scott]

I know most times you're just like, no, I don't want to go, or whatever.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

But, yeah, I think. I think sometimes.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

There's yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Do you have an example?

[Scott]

No, I have a terrible memory.

[Michael Malone]

I was like, I don't understand what you're saying.

[Scott]

I don't think so.

[Michael Malone]

So, like, if you. If you were like, hey, let's go do this. And I was like, yeah, I don't want to go. I don't then think I would feel the need to, like, have you not go, too.

[Scott]

If I was like, hey, let's go get a burger.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I'd be like, hey, I really want to go to the Habit. And you'd be like, I'll get a burger with you. Okay. And you go, when's the last time you went to the Habit? I don't know. Two days ago. Been going there a lot, haven't you? Yeah, I guess I'm there, like, maybe once a week or whatever. The. Let me go to herbs. Well, I don't know. I mean, I haven't been. I don't really like herbs. Come on, let's go to herbs. And then it's like, when's the last time you went to herbs? And then it's question me on this or that, like, going down that path. And eventually it's just, I were in the car, we're going to herbs.

[Michael Malone]

Interesting.

[Scott]

And so I know that's like a surface level example or whatever, but.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Apply that to whatever. Yeah, interesting.

[Michael Malone]

Because what I heard is, I want to go to my comfort place. And on. And then my friend is like, why don't we try something else? And you're like, sometimes, sure.

[Scott]

Why don't we do that sometimes? Sure. But it is, again, very surface level, maybe bad example or whatever. But I was just kind of using, like, just whatever. But, yeah, it's.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Oftentimes it's talking them into the thing that. Or getting out of the thing that you don't want to do or go to. So the questions are, yeah, I don't.

[Michael Malone]

I don't ever feel like I have to, like, if I don't want to go to something, I'll be like, no, thanks. Have, like, have a good time. I don't think I've ever felt the need to, like, convince somebody else not to also go. So that's interesting.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Well, here's what happened.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

My girl and I were in the kitchen, and I smacked her on the butt. And she said kind of hard. And I said, yeah. And then the dumb ass in me thought, I should pinch her on the butt now.

[Scott]

Oh, my God.

[Michael Malone]

So I pinched her on the butt.

[Scott]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

And she did not appreciate that playfulness, and she had an emotional reaction. And what I came around to is that one things that are playful to me are different one for everybody. But in this situation, my partner. So, yeah, for me, like, oh, I'm just being playful. We're, you know, whatever, Playing grab ass in the kitchen. Okay. But my girlfriend has had a much different life experience than me.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And what happened with her was somebody did something to her body that she didn't like. And even though she knows logically she's in a safe space with a safe person, her nervous system doesn't know that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So her body reacts in a way that she is in danger and something's happening. And so what I posed to my therapist was I smacked her on the butt. She didn't like it. Why the would I pinch her? I was like, do I have this subconscious thing of like, oh, I can do whatever I want?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And that's why there was like, yeah, you don't strike me as that. And I was like, yeah, I don't think so either, but am I just a idiot?

[Scott]

No, no.

[Michael Malone]

Like, why would I pinch her butt after I smacked her? And she was like, ow, that hurt. And I was like, I'm though. Again, am I a idiot? Yes, I am. But why? Again, for me, it's just playful.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I think. I think that's innocent playfulness, and that's just. I think we just fall into that sometimes with our partners where we think it's. We take it too far. They take it too far or whatever.

[Guest]

Like. Yeah.

[Scott]

I think you can chalk that up to just like, I went too far on that one.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And just be a better listener next time. I mean, that's all you really can do. Like, that's what I've done in past relationships because I've taken jokes too far or something like that.

[Michael Malone]

That's my specialty.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

And, hey, man, there are limits.

[Guest]

And yeah.

[Scott]

Then you just kind of file it back and go, okay.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

When she says this, she means that it's over.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Playtime's over.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I did think of you in therapy when I was having this conversation about.

[Scott]

The time you smacked my butt.

[Michael Malone]

What butt? The time I smacked the back of your thigh that's next to your shoulder blades. Long ass back. Get out of here.

[Scott]

Long back. Long back. Malone.

[Michael Malone]

Two sets. How does. How are the. How do you have two backs of the knees right below the waist? You got another set of those concave knees. All right, anyway, Yeah, I thought of you in therapy in this conversation, because when she had a big Reaction as she should have. Well, I'm not going to say as she should have. That I understand. That makes perfect sense to me why she had a big reaction.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I felt like a little kid in trouble.

[Guest]

Really? I did.

[Michael Malone]

Felt like a little boy in trouble.

[Scott]

Oh, no.

[Michael Malone]

Felt a lot of shame. Felt like.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Malone]

Didn't like it. Not an enjoyable feeling.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

How often do you feel like that?

[Michael Malone]

Not a lot. Yeah, not a lot, but I did in that moment. And it was. It was interesting because I don't. That's not a. A usual reaction for me.

[Scott]

And what did it. How did it. How do I want to word this? How'd you get out of that feeling?

[Michael Malone]

I didn't. What do you mean? Like, when did it subside?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Like, how. Like, what did it take to get out of that? Like, knowing that, hey, I'm. I'm not in trouble.

[Guest]

I'm.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, I just felt that way, but I knew. I was like. Like, we talked about it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Like, she had a big reaction, and then on. And then I was. I mean, I assume defensive. I can't imagine. I handled it great off the bat, you know?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And then I actually. Dude, my girl and I handle this so well.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Like, my therapist was even like, this is incredible. I was, like, telling me I got a podcast.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

She was heightened. And then as soon as I felt myself getting heightened, I. There's like, hey, I think we should walk away from this until we can both be accountable for what just happened. And she's like, okay, fine. And she went out back. I went to my desk, did a little work. She came in. She's like, hey, can you come out here so we can talk?

[Guest]

Yep.

[Michael Malone]

We talked calmly. I was like, yeah, I shouldn't have done that. I was like, I shouldn't have. But also, you don't get to talk to me the way you did just because you're in an emotional place. I understand you had a big reaction. I understand why we don't talk to each other like that. And she was accountable. She's like, yeah. She's like, I don't want to be the kind of partner that speaks to my partner that way. She's like, and I'm sorry for that. So we were both accountable for what happened.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I understand that. Without my actions, none of it would have happened. But also, we both. We were both guilty for being in the wrong. No yelling, no screaming.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Very pretty proud of us, to be honest.

[Scott]

How hard was that to put your. You both in timeout in that Moment.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Not ideal. I like to hammer that out right now.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

But I mean, I've learned that sometimes we need to take a little space.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And like, cool off because everybody's heightened right now.

[Scott]

What the.

[Michael Malone]

How is that going to be productive?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

There's no resolution.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

But.

[Scott]

Huh.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I was unpacking it. That Quest bar telling you. Um, I was unpacking it a little bit more in therapy and because, you know, I understood, like I said, I understand why my girl had a, her nervous system had a big reaction.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And my therapist put it to me in a way that I had never thought about before.

[Guest]

And.

[Michael Malone]

Like, I've never in my life felt like I could be. I could be or was going to be overpowered by somebody else. I've never felt unsafe in a way that someone is going to. Can physically take me and do something to me against my will.

[Scott]

Not even when you were little, like father figure or like rent?

[Michael Malone]

Like, oh, he's gonna hit me over the phone. What the you talking about?

[Guest]

No, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

No, really. I mean, I'm sure. I remember like, being afraid of my mom when she was angry, but never, like, she's gonna hold me down or something.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So the physically overpowering is a fear I've never even thought about. Like, if you and I get into it. I'm sorry. I'm not worried about it.

[Scott]

You should be. Well, I'll climb you like a, Like a spider monkey dog, but you know.

[Michael Malone]

What I mean, like, it's just, it's not a thing.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So it's, it's just one of those things. Like, as a man, I'm never going to know what it's like to be around a person that, you know, could hold you down and do whatever they wanted to you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And your body always knows that because women exist in that place.

[Guest]

Yeah. Man.

[Michael Malone]

I never thought about it like that. And I felt sad. Feel sad right now thinking about it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

It makes me think too about. Because we talked last night with somebody about women's safety and things like that, but yeah. Not only like when they're out in the world, but even online, like, it has to be such a show emotionally with dudes in comments. And so you can't not, you know, you feel safe in the world, but you don't even feel safe when you're at home scrolling. Sometimes I, I, that's.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott]

Dudes are the worst. What?

[Michael Malone]

Funny to hear that from the king of dms. That's all I'm saying, you know.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott]

I'm in there bullying women.

[Michael Malone]

I know.

[Scott]

That's what I'm doing.

[Michael Malone]

Is that what you just heard?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Jesus.

[Scott]

Then what was the intent behind it?

[Michael Malone]

The irony that you are. Well, on this podcast and people, like, know that you enjoy flirting in the dms.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Michael Malone]

And you're talking about the experience of women online. Yeah, it's just the irony of it. That was the intent.

[Scott]

I thought you were coming after me. I thought.

[Michael Malone]

Hey, I thought the else is new, man.

[Scott]

Scott, you're coming after me.

[Michael Malone]

Jesus. Yeah, because I'm in there bullying women. Shut the fuck up.

[Scott]

I was like, what are you even talking about?

[Michael Malone]

Well, now that I've explained it to you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

How do you feel now, you bitch?

[Scott]

Still confused A little.

[Michael Malone]

What about?

[Scott]

What are we talking about? The DMs I get when people tell me to kill myself?

[Michael Malone]

No, your dad is dead. He's not writing you.

[Scott]

He never wrote me.

[Michael Malone]

That's true.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

It seems like he had four or five pagers, though.

[Scott]

Buddy, he was dead before pagers came out.

[Michael Malone]

Really?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So they would have been a pager guy.

[Scott]

Oh, he for sure would have been a bigger dude. You never. He never would have called you back. You could definitely page the dude.

[Michael Malone]

You could page that.

[Scott]

Yeah, he tried to when we were just now talking about father figures and kind of, like, abuse, in a way. My dad only tried to beat me once.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, you told that story in here.

[Scott]

Yeah, it was crazy. I still get, like, a little. I could just remember, like, getting halfway up those stairs and that. He got me, dude. And he grabbed my ankle.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

What'd you do? You remember what he was upset about?

[Scott]

I don't even know, dude. I was like, 11, 10, 10 and a half, 11.

[Michael Malone]

I got good news and bad news, and they're both the same. He's gonna die next year.

[Scott]

One of the last things I said when I was running up those years, I hope you die. No, I didn't. I didn't do that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Thought it took it too far, did we?

[Scott]

I don't know.

[Michael Malone]

She's not even here.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So I've been bullying my girlfriend is what I'm saying. Just beating that up. Pinch by pinch, pinch by pin, pinch by pinch. Day by day. What is that? Full house?

[Scott]

No.

[Michael Malone]

Oh.

[Scott]

Step by step by step.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Is that the show?

[Scott]

Step by step, I would assume.

[Michael Malone]

Day by day by day. Did I make that up?

[Scott]

I think so. I was like, I don't think I've ever heard this song that you're singing right now.

[Michael Malone]

We gotta get off that.

[Scott]

We gotta.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

We gotta get off that.

[Scott]

We gotta stop.

[Michael Malone]

Okay? What's going on with you? You bullying my girlfriend?

[Scott]

No.

[Michael Malone]

Be a good friend, would you? Don't touch her body. Abuse her with words.

[Scott]

Abusing her in the dms. You know how I roll.

[Michael Malone]

I do know how you roll. I'm so sorry, guys. Ah.

[Scott]

I wrote some things down.

[Michael Malone]

They're all like, he follows me. And I'm like, I know it. He's the only one. My podcast. Follow me back. All right, what did you write down?

[Scott]

I'm not following you. Whose username that fat ass. No, wrong.

[Michael Malone]

Incorrect.

[Scott]

I. We need to get serious. This is a serious show.

[Michael Malone]

Well, yeah, sometimes it could be once or twice. Should be step by step, Step by step.

[Guest]

We need.

[Scott]

Hey, we need a new theme song.

[Michael Malone]

Day by day, Step by step, Day by day.

[Scott]

You heard it. Somebody put it together, send it to us. We need it.

[Michael Malone]

We don't. Don't ever send me that.

[Scott]

We need it.

[Michael Malone]

Do not send that.

[Scott]

Send it immediately.

[Michael Malone]

Unless you send it to the PO.

[Scott]

Box on a cd.

[Michael Malone]

On a CD with a picture of that fat ass. No, no, no, no, no.

[Scott]

DM that to me. No.

[Guest]

No.

[Scott]

Can I talk about emotions?

[Michael Malone]

It's kind of nice when you get a Polaroid in the PO Box, though, right? I'm like, my girlfriend doesn't like it, but she understands. She's like, I get it. You guys have fans. She's like, but why you need to write a book. And it's called My grandma doesn't like it, but she understands.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

That's your book that needs to come out.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Now, if we ever cancel the podcast and then we got a Polaroid unhinged. But because we are known people and, like, we have a lot of female fans, she's like, yeah, I get it. She's like, you don't get to keep it. I'm like, I know. Yeah, so send us some Polaroids.

[Scott]

No, no.

[Michael Malone]

I like getting polarized at puppies too. If you have a pet donkey or.

[Scott]

A pet cow, this guy's on a donkey kit.

[Michael Malone]

Send some pictures of your donkeys and cows. That does not mean titties and asses.

[Scott]

That does sound like you're talking about.

[Michael Malone]

Send us pictures of your donkeys and cows, buddy. That sounds like, Send us a picture of your donkeys and cows or your.

[Scott]

Bunnies and fat ass donkeys. I love donkeys, buddy. I'm a donkey lover.

[Guest]

Okay?

[Michael Malone]

That's what read out of your stupid little book. Can I get unreal?

[Scott]

Dude, all this is getting cut.

[Michael Malone]

No, that was so fun.

[Scott]

I. I was in coda today.

[Michael Malone]

Thank fucking God.

[Scott]

Shut the fuck up, dude. I'm sorry.

[Michael Malone]

I'm gonna go to coda. That's you. They gonna tell me I'm broken?

[Guest]

Yeah. All right.

[Michael Malone]

You went to coda.

[Scott]

It's called healing.

[Michael Malone]

Okay. You went to coda?

[Scott]

I went Dakota.

[Michael Malone]

Codependence. Anonymous.

[Scott]

I'm not supposed to even talk about this.

[Michael Malone]

I don't think that's what the anonymous part means, but go ahead. Is that what it means? You're not supposed to talk about what you learned there?

[Scott]

No.

[Michael Malone]

You're just.

[Scott]

It's an identity thing.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That guy Gary you were telling me about is crazy.

[Scott]

There's no Gary.

[Michael Malone]

What was his name?

[Scott]

I don't know. Anonymous.

[Michael Malone]

Paul, Peter, Judas.

[Scott]

Anonymous.

[Guest]

Noah.

[Scott]

You'Ll never. Noah.

[Michael Malone]

Nice.

[Scott]

Thank you.

[Michael Malone]

It's all the biblical names. I know.

[Scott]

Today's topic is low self esteem.

[Michael Malone]

You were running the meeting today.

[Scott]

I was the mascot, baby. So we do this thing in coda where you. There's like a topic and then we break down. There are codependent behaviors, and then there's in recovery behaviors.

[Michael Malone]

Is there like a leader of the meeting?

[Guest]

Yes.

[Michael Malone]

Same person every time.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

King Kota.

[Scott]

King Koda.

[Michael Malone]

It's like King Kunta. King Kota.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And, buddy, this one me up today.

[Michael Malone]

Every week you get up in these.

[Scott]

Every week I'm getting up, dude. Last week.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott]

Turn the page back, buddy.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

What'd you got there?

[Scott]

Let me.

[Michael Malone]

What's it say?

[Scott]

This is also my journal.

[Guest]

Oh.

[Scott]

So I need to get it out of the shot.

[Michael Malone]

Is that a drawing of a fat ass?

[Scott]

It's a donkey.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, nice.

[Scott]

Buddy. Last week we're talking about relationships. Oh, man. And somebody shared. Worked so hard on protecting the relationship that I didn't give love.

[Guest]

Oh.

[Scott]

Buddy.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

You talk about. I have been in that situation so many times. Not even in relationships, but friendships and career and everything you're working so hard to protect. What you think is like this fragile. I mean, you and I talk about this all the time about not making waves, not upsetting people, people pleasing. Like all that stuff is just protecting the relationship instead of just giving the love. Whether it is whatever degree of love that is or attention or whatever it needs to be. You feel like it. You were going to say something there.

[Michael Malone]

No, I. Yeah, it's like. It sounds like you hold. You hold on so tight that you forget to actually be a part of it.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

And that's on abandonment.

[Michael Malone]

It's on codependence.

[Scott]

Also that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Trying to Fix others is a need for control.

[Michael Malone]

Trying to fix others is a need for control. That makes sense.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I'm always trying to fix you. Hey, cuz.

[Scott]

You're trying to control me.

[Michael Malone]

You would get there so much quicker.

[Scott]

I know.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And not only like, it's interesting because like, I never looked at it as. I think you and I have talked about this before with mom.

[Michael Malone]

Maybe yours are mine.

[Scott]

I'm having deja vu. I never felt like I was trying to control the person. It was always trying to control the outcome or controlled the emotions or the situation. It was like managing. Managing expectations and not so the person, but in managing the person, you're managing the expectations. You know? You know what I'm saying?

[Michael Malone]

I don't. I think you're so different. Word. Besides expectations.

[Scott]

Outcome.

[Michael Malone]

Results.

[Scott]

Results. Okay, sure. That I have in my mind.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I don't want this person to be mad at me. So I will do X, Y and Z.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Scott]

So that is a way to control the outcome. So like.

[Guest]

Yeah, you.

[Scott]

You do things to again to protect the relationship. Instead of either being accountable or giving love or being present, you're protecting the relationship to control the outcome.

[Guest]

Because yeah, you.

[Scott]

You don't want them. You don't want either. You don't want to get hurt or left. And oftentimes those feelings feel like the only two options there is. Especially when you're dealing with abandonment and codependency.

[Guest]

It is.

[Scott]

For me, it's. Abandonment is huge in those moments where there is no. I don't see it as a working it out thing. There is no working it out as far like on my end.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Scott]

But I'm always afraid like the other person's not going to be in it for the long run or whatever. And so if they become upset, then it's over. There is no middle ground. And that is terrifying. And so I'm constantly trying to protect the relationship.

[Michael Malone]

So it sounds like you. You can't see past the rupture, right?

[Scott]

Because in the rupture they're. Fuck.

[Michael Malone]

You guys sent us some Polaroids. He's very sad.

[Guest]

Yeah, I just got.

[Scott]

I fucked myself up just now.

[Michael Malone]

Donkeys and cows.

[Scott]

What happened to you, buddy?

[Guest]

Yes, because.

[Scott]

Oh man. I can't even. Okay, open your eyes. I don't want to open them. I don't want to do it.

[Michael Malone]

Look at that. I got what I wanted.

[Guest]

Yep.

[Scott]

Bullied me right into it.

[Michael Malone]

Fine, Close them.

[Scott]

I am not. I don't feel worthy of the rupture.

[Michael Malone]

You don't feel worthy of the Rupture.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I'm not worth it, man. So if there's a rupture, you're gone. And.

[Michael Malone]

Okay, well, I'm gonna stop you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So what. What I. What I'm hearing is you're not worthy of the repair.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Sorry.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

It's easier to just.

[Michael Malone]

Cut you loose.

[Guest]

Yep. Yep.

[Scott]

That's why I have to protect the relationship, because.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

We're not just gonna move on.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Michael Malone]

I mean, there's so much more conversation to have. I have a question.

[Scott]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Scott]

You and the black tea.

[Guest]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

You're not worthy of the repair. So for you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

You would rather be a part of the relationship, even though you're not being yourself. You not saying what you want. You're not allowed to have feelings.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

You would rather be in that relationship than be outside of it and be free.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That's a bummer. Yeah, that is a bummer.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I googled bummer, and it had you. It had a picture of you with a mustache.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott]

And we'll get to that, because that has to do with this week's that we were talking about. But there's one more thing from last week that I. I wanted to share, which was just somebody said when it. When we're talking about our needs, and somebody was like, well, what. What do you need? Like that. That's always our thing is, like, trying to figure out what everybody else needs, and in doing so, we lose our own direction.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

That resonated with me.

[Michael Malone]

It's also interesting that I'm just speaking for you or from. For me with regards to my experience with you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

When you say you're always trying to figure out other people's needs.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

It's always guessing, never asking.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

Because asking is making waves in my head.

[Michael Malone]

You're like, hey, what do you need? And you're like, I can't do that. I'm just gonna go get a roast chicken. And hopefully. Yeah, he needs a roast chicken.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And then you come over the roast chicken. I go, what the is that for?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And you're like, you haven't had lunch yet.

[Scott]

Right.

[Michael Malone]

And I'm like, what the is happening here?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Damn.

[Guest]

Hey.

[Michael Malone]

Bummer.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

Because. And what is that doing? Protecting the relationship.

[Michael Malone]

Because I hate when you bring me chickens.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I'm going to cut one more chicken. I'm cutting you loose.

[Scott]

Flying the coop. So that brings us to this week.

[Michael Malone]

Hold on. How are you feeling right now?

[Scott]

Oh, I felt like I was gonna cry.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

I.

[Michael Malone]

You look unwell.

[Scott]

Came around to that was a real life or real time discovery there about being worthy of repair, buddy. Yeah. Never said that out loud. Didn't like it.

[Michael Malone]

Well, thank you for trusting us to do it here.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

You know, where else would I cry publicly?

[Guest]

Oh, that.

[Michael Malone]

This is the only place. Thank you for that.

[Scott]

Yeah, buddy, I. That is a real time discovery.

[Michael Malone]

Do you want to write it down so you don't forget to talk about in therapy?

[Scott]

I'll never forget it.

[Michael Malone]

Okay. Nice. Hey, tight man.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

All right, what else you got?

[Scott]

So today was about low self esteem.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And there was a story. Usually. Not usually. Sometimes I don't know. I'm in this new meeting group.

[Michael Malone]

Okay. If you guys want to go to the same codependents media sim we're posting link, it's only going to be on Patreon. You can go to the coda meeting with Michael Malone.

[Guest]

Please don't.

[Michael Malone]

We're not doing that.

[Scott]

No. God no.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, then just go to Patreon.

[Guest]

Guys.

[Scott]

In this. In this new meeting that I'm in, they go a step further. In the old meetings I was in, they would just show like the codependence behaviors and then in recovery behaviors. And we would read them back and back to back, go down the list and then we would see how many we could go through how many shares. So we would start with the first one and then whoever wanted to share about it could. And we would go down the list.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

In this new meeting, we would go through all of them and then we read a story from the workbook.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Scott]

And today's story was about a woman who was married to an alcoholic and a sex addict. And she didn't realize that because she was raised.

[Michael Malone]

Your mom was in this meeting.

[Scott]

You know what? This is a safe space.

[Michael Malone]

That was an easy one. Because your dad was an alcoholic.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Michael Malone]

And was out on the town. That's all we know. Back to this lady. I'm so sorry.

[Scott]

Now I'm gonna take something out of your girl's playbook. Okay.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Play too much.

[Guest]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Scott]

Play too much.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

You just. You seem so uncomfortable. I'm like. Let me. If we can get like a giggle here and there, maybe it'd be easier for you to get through. And that's me trying to confirm.

[Scott]

Exactly.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

That's you being uncomfortable with my uncomfortability.

[Michael Malone]

Discomfort.

[Guest]

Yep. Yeah.

[Scott]

Nothing makes you more discomfortable than using the wrong words.

[Michael Malone]

I mean, it's up there. Yeah, it's up there.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Anyways, this woman, she didn't know that she was in this toxic relationship because she was raised by addicts. And man, as somebody who has addicts in their family tree, a lot of the story related to me. And then, you know, she talks about their behaviors and this and that and what she thought was normal versus what wasn't normal. And anyways, we got to this list of behaviors that she was kind of like, these behaviors were just passed down to her generation by generation. And because they were just all dealing with addicts in their life. And so this codependency is linked to that because oftentimes we are catering to the needs of the addict. So these are. These aren't all that. They were 10 of them, but the.

[Guest]

These.

[Scott]

It's not all of them. These are just the ones that I related to when it comes to codependency. And that is what we're taught, which is don't express feelings. Be good and be nice. Weary smile, mask.

[Michael Malone]

Okay, let's go one by one, if that's okay.

[Scott]

Sure.

[Michael Malone]

Don't express feelings.

[Scott]

Don't express feelings except.

[Michael Malone]

Anger, frustration.

[Scott]

No, there is no exception for you, was there?

[Michael Malone]

You were never allowed no feelings.

[Scott]

No feelings you could express? Well, hunger for me, feelings. Like, don't express feelings meant you. You can, but you would just get shuffled along. Like, we've talked about that before, where it's like, well, there's no reason to be sad. There's no reason for this. There's nothing we can do. So don't feel it, because there's nothing we can do about it. So for me, that's how it. That's how I read that is don't express feelings. Because, yeah, what's the point in expressing those feelings? There's nothing we can do about it. So you're wasting your time, so just keep it moving. And that's what I was taught was nothing we can do about it. So don't bother. Don't bother. No reason. Feeling sad. No reason to be angry. No reason to be. Whatever. It's that. That is what it is. So let's keep it moving. And also, nobody likes your emotions. That was. Furthermore, what it was, was, ain't nobody got time for you crying. Nobody wants to see you cry. You think these people want to see you crying? No. You think these people want to see you upset or being sad? It was also sad emotions.

[Michael Malone]

Making a scene.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

Making a scene right now.

[Michael Malone]

I remember that.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So I can relate to that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

So that was very much what it was, was just like, yeah, you're kind of putting other people out by having emotions.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Be good and be nice and wear a smile mask.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Pretty straightforward. That's kind of your thing.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott]

You know, mom loves a good boy.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Just be. You can laugh at their joke. What does it cost you? Just be nice.

[Scott]

Just be nice.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Just be good.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

We love to be a good boy.

[Scott]

Be needless. Only addicts needs get met. Be needless, buddy. Be needless.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, that sounds very much like. Don't make any waves.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Happy to be here. Don't make any waves.

[Michael Malone]

That's interesting for you because you. Do you think your mom's way of keeping you needless was just doing everything before you had to ask?

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Because you can't really remove someone's needs.

[Scott]

No.

[Michael Malone]

But have them not date them or be able to recognize them. Maybe.

[Scott]

I think it's. I mean, yeah, you can remove needs.

[Michael Malone]

You can't.

[Scott]

Hey, I don't need to do laundry. She's doing it. I don't need to make food. She's doing it. I don't need.

[Michael Malone]

But what I'm saying is you do need clean clothes. You do need to eat.

[Scott]

But these things are already provided without asking or speaking up or even.

[Michael Malone]

I understand. I'm saying the need, though.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

You can't remove it. You can't remove a human's need to eat.

[Scott]

No.

[Michael Malone]

You can remove the need to prepare food for yourself.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That's what I'm saying. I don't think you can remove the need. You can just remove the. The necessity of them voicing it.

[Scott]

Yeah. Can you numb. Would you agree? You can numb the awareness?

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott]

I think that's more so. What? It was just a numbing of the awareness of needs and more so I think it speaks of. Just like, for me at least, it speaks to. Don't ask anybody for anything because it might upset them.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Don't ask for. Only ask for help when you absolutely have to. But it's more so just like, don't ask for favors. Don't ask anybody. Like, if you can't say no, no is a need, because then I'm speaking up for my needs. You know, hey, let's go to the. I need you to run to the thing with me. Of course. Because if I say no, then that's speaking to my needs.

[Michael Malone]

No is a need.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That's a wild principle. That makes perfect sense.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Wow.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Be needless.

[Michael Malone]

Damn. No is need.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I can relate to the not asking for help for. For different reasons.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Not. It wasn't a be needless or be quiet. It's that I learned that if somebody helps you with something, they're gonna hold it over your head forever. Like, remember what I did for you?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And that's on narcissism.

[Michael Malone]

Dad. Hear that tell?

[Scott]

Mama was a papa.

[Michael Malone]

That was papa. It was papa.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Dude, you can't do anything with no strings. It's crazy.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So even. Even when you're like, hey, I'm going to do a load of towels, do you have any towels? Now do them.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. I. I don't need. I don't ever need to know that you wash my towels.

[Scott]

I know.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

What else you got? Let's talk about that.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Scott]

Even I, you know, I pick up on this every once in the other day on the hike, we were going down a steep part of the hike, and you got bad ankles. Everybody know that. And this is at the end of the hike.

[Michael Malone]

Everybody knows that.

[Scott]

Everybody knows that.

[Michael Malone]

Everybody knows about my ankles. They're legendary.

[Scott]

Yeah, you got bad ankles.

[Michael Malone]

Legendarily bad.

[Guest]

But, yeah.

[Scott]

It's coming towards the end of the hike, this and that, and steep part going down. And I hung back with you, and I even said to you, I was like, hey, man, if you needed to grab my shoulder or something like that, like, slimming. And you were like, no, I'm good.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

But I. I knew that you would never ask for anything like that.

[Guest]

Yeah. And.

[Scott]

In those situations, I like letting you. It's my way of letting you know that it's okay to ask for.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

Those things.

[Michael Malone]

I know. I can't accept it yet.

[Scott]

I know.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And also, I'm like, buddy, if I go down, I'm gonna snap your back in half.

[Scott]

Hey, snap it. I'm needless.

[Michael Malone]

I don't even need to walk this back, turn my spine into dust.

[Scott]

But, yeah, it's just. And that's also why I asked for towels and this and that. Because I know you're never gonna.

[Guest]

Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

I'm trying to chip away at that a little bit.

[Michael Malone]

Good luck.

[Scott]

We'll see. Yeah, we'll see.

[Michael Malone]

Don't quit. Don't quit on me now.

[Scott]

Yeah, I know.

[Michael Malone]

My girl's always like, we do have towels, though. I'm like, I'll do it.

[Scott]

Shut up.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah, that.

[Scott]

All of these things. Okay. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. I'm getting ahead of myself. Live to avoid conflict.

[Michael Malone]

I can't wait to unpack this one.

[Scott]

Live to avoid conflict.

[Michael Malone]

Because you love conflict.

[Scott]

I don't love conflict.

[Michael Malone]

But only with people that aren't close to you. Say more a guy in line. Oh, a guy in traffic.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

You love.

[Michael Malone]

Oh. When somebody can't abandon you. Seeping out of you the desire for conflict. You know why? Because you were never allowed to have it.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

It's repressed in me.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

So if I get a chance to have a little taste of it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And it's exercising that little thing because.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I know. When you said that one earlier when you were telling me list, I was like, oh, this wants to fight everybody.

[Scott]

Oh.

[Michael Malone]

He's like, it's a little rebellion.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

Because I can't fight anybody. I want to fight everybody.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

If you're gonna fight somebody, make it a stranger.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

No consequences there.

[Scott]

And also that's live to avoid conflict. Goes into accountability as well. Accountability feels like conflict because.

[Guest]

I.

[Scott]

Being honest and being wrong and owning up to that, it threatens the protecting the relationship part and that threatens the abandonment part. And that goes into worthy of repair. So if I'm accountable for my actions and you are upset with me and you hold me accountable for my actions, well, then we're done. So I will avoid conflict, which also means sometimes avoiding accountability.

[Michael Malone]

Because if you're seen as less than perfect.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

There's no reason to stay.

[Guest]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Scott]

Also just putting that together in real time. Want to cry. Moving on.

[Michael Malone]

But what together in real time.

[Scott]

The accountability factor into avoiding conflict.

[Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Avoiding accountability is a way of keeping yourself safe.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

And that's not okay.

[Michael Malone]

It makes it hard to have genuine connections with people without accountability.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

If I'm always what you need me to be, then there's no problem.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

So I always say yes because no is a need and all that other stuff. Remain loyal at all costs. Never leave.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

That is if you're.

[Michael Malone]

If you dated him in high school and you're wondering why he still sends you a Christmas card. This is why.

[Scott]

Never leave.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

As codependents oftentimes feel responsible for other people. Let's just leave it there. Other people. And when you mix in the addict behavior background.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Scott]

When it runs in your family and you've dealt with that, that's all you know, like, that's all I've known since I was a kid is dealing with addicts and how people.

[Michael Malone]

How.

[Scott]

So I just see how people placate toward to them, take care of them, protect them, enable them. Because when you're. Because an addict is always Threatening to throw you away because you're threatening.

[Michael Malone]

Addicts are incredible manipulators.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott]

And so when. When you confront them or you have problems with them, and then it's dismissal of you because.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, dismissal. View. Victimizing of themselves.

[Scott]

Absolutely.

[Michael Malone]

An addict will threaten to kill himself four times a day.

[Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Scott]

So remain loyal at all costs. Never leave. When you're dealing with addict behaviors. I saw that all the time.

[Guest]

You.

[Scott]

You remain loyal to them because they need you. They need your help. And if you leave again, like you said, they're going to kill themselves. They're going to do this, they're going to do that. Like, you are at fault. No matter what happens with them, you are at fault. That's what they want you to believe.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That's what you have grown to believe.

[Scott]

And that's what.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Scott]

And that's what I was taught. That's what I visually was taught. That's what I was emotionally taught. That's what I. Everything. I saw it play out so many times.

[Guest]

That. Yeah, it.

[Scott]

Even in relationships without the addiction there, it is still hard. You know, you want to talk about closing the door and like, all that stuff, what if they need me? And things like that. That's where that stems from. And I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't know that until today. That thinking that behavior is directly linked.

[Guest]

To.

[Scott]

Being kind of, for lack of a better term, like groomed around addicts or groomed to cater to addicts. Last one. Don't get angry or upset. Internalize it always. Don't get angry or upset. Internalize it always. Which kind of feeds into the first thing we talked about, which is showing emotion.

[Michael Malone]

I don't see you struggling to withhold anger. Usually pretty open with letting anger and frustration out.

[Guest]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Scott]

I wrote that down. Mainly for the last part. Internalize it always. Which is just on a grander scale of emotions or feelings. Internalize them. Because then if I speak up about them, then it goes into again, like causing waves and doing this and that and. Or it goes into. People don't want to see that and you're, you know, whatever. So internalize it always. So I shared today in coda about.

[Michael Malone]

You know what? Let's do that on Patreon.

[Scott]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

Still in the.

[Scott]

After the podcast, I'll tell you what I shared on the after the pod.

[Michael Malone]

All right, thanks for listening, guys. We appreciate you.

[Scott]

Probably cry. Love you.

[Michael Malone]

And we know that.