Emotional Defensiveness: Why Softness Feels Unsafe | #111

Summary

Secondhand Therapy – Episode #111

Emotional Defensiveness: Why Softness Feels Unsafe
Release Date: December 15, 2025
Podcast by: PonyBear Studios
Hosts: Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode of Secondhand Therapy, hosts Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone dig deep into the topic of emotional defensiveness, exploring why vulnerability and "softness" often feel risky—especially for men. Through their signature blend of self-deprecating humor and raw honesty, the pair unpacks real therapy takeaways, relationship struggles, and the complicated process of learning to express emotions directly (and softly). Expect a frank, funny, and relatable discussion on masculinity, communication, and the perpetual challenge of true personal growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Directness as a Defense Mechanism

• Louie opens up about feedback from his therapist, who labeled his "direct communication" as a defense mechanism ([09:11]):
  • Louie: "My so called direct communication is a defense mechanism. So I am getting a new therapist… I'm getting someone who gets me."
• This sparks an honest back-and-forth about how Louie typically avoids vulnerability, often defaulting to matter-of-fact statements rather than communicating feelings.

2. The Struggle to Be Vulnerable

• Michael gently but persistently pushes Louie to explore why softness and sincerity are so hard for him ([13:05]):
  • Michael: "Why don't you want to have the conversation at all?"
  • Louie: "I don't think it's interesting… I just don't want to be vulnerable."
• They highlight the discomfort many (especially men) feel when directly expressing needs or fears—contrasting "soft" vulnerability with defensive, blame-laden honesty.

3. Therapy Homework: Speaking Feelings Without Blame

• Louie shares an example of therapist-led "coaching" on how to express softer, more vulnerable emotions to his partner ([15:09]):
  • Louie (paraphrasing therapist): "Since you've been thinking about going back to work… I feel really sad, and I'm really going to miss you. And I feel scared this change… will threaten our connection."
• The difference between this and Louie's default "directness" is discussed—one centers on feelings, the other subtly points blame.

4. How Masculinity and Programming Make Softness Hard

• Louie wrestles aloud with how expressing sadness over his girlfriend's job feels "unmanly":
  • Louie: "I'm not a bro. That's why I think I might be a dude. That's not bro behavior."
  • Michael: "That's strength, dog. Feeling like you're going to miss your girl… that's strength." ([16:27])

5. Receiving vs. Giving Softness

• Michael asks Louie which style of communication he'd prefer to receive, exposing gaps in his own emotional fluency ([18:28]):
  • Louie: "I think the first way… the way my therapist told me."
• Louie admits that, before therapy, softness "wasn't even on [his] radar."

6. Autism, Directness, and Emotional Blindspots

• The conversation veers into whether Louie's communication style is related to being neurodivergent ([20:00]):
  • Louie equates "directness" with clear, unbiased truth-telling, often missing subtle emotional cues.
  • Michael points out the challenge (and sometimes danger) of misinterpreting or skipping over unsaid emotions.

7. Learning to Soften Communication

• Louie pledges to "soften" his words when appropriate, realizing the value in simply naming feelings without explaining or blaming ([21:22]).
  • Louie: "They don't need to know why I'm feeling a certain way. I can just tell them what I'm feeling and what the fear is, I guess. Makes sense?"

8. The Control Factor & Fear of Loss

• Michael introduces the idea that controlling the narrative is a form of self-protection ([43:44]).
  • Michael: "Control comes up a lot for me. Because of fear."
  • Louie acknowledges the validity but insists his reaction is rooted in fear and sadness rather than control.

9. Testing New Approaches and Outcomes

• Louie shares that when he communicated more softly with his partner, it "was received very well," making him feel "annoyed" because it requires effort and repetition ([41:08]):
  • Louie: "Now I have to do it again. What the…"
  • But admits, "she understood. She feels the same… very connected, very repaired."

10. Playfulness, Deflection, and Defensiveness

• A sidebar about using humor or “playfulness” to avoid direct vulnerability ([54:30]):
  • Michael: "Being playful is a defense mechanism."
  • Louie: "Nope. Sure isn't."
  • They debate whether jokes, disclaimers, or invoking anxiety are shields against true emotional disclosure.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My so called direct communication is a defense mechanism.”
  — Louie ([09:19])
• “You can’t call a woman piggy. I never did that during sex… I gotta tell you, I met her. It wasn’t even that smushed.”
  — Louie (about derailing with humor/deflection, [10:51])
• “What are you afraid of in this moment, that you’re gonna come off too sincere?”
  — Michael ([12:42])
• “I’m not a bro. That’s not bro behavior.”
  — Louie ([16:22])
• “Feeling like you’re going to miss your girl? That’s strength, dog.”
  — Michael ([16:31])
• “They don’t need to know why I’m feeling a certain way. I can just tell them what I’m feeling and what the fear is.”
  — Louie ([21:23])
• "I think there's room for context without blame."
  — Michael ([21:50])
• **"I'm sure for my partner, it's very helpful to hear you just be like, ‘hey, I’m gonna miss you, and I’m sad and scared...”
  — Louie ([18:06])
• "If all those luxuries are true… I would make the choice to…meet people where they are. Which I’m always trying to do, but sometimes it’s easier than others."
  — Louie ([34:02])
• “Being playful is a defense mechanism.”
  — Michael ([54:30])
• “You often hear what I’m not saying.”
  — Louie ([56:36])

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Important Timestamps

• 09:06 — Therapist calls out "directness" as a defense mechanism
• 13:05 — Louie avoids discussing his feelings about girlfriend's new job
• 15:09 — Louie models his therapist-coached vulnerability script
• 16:22 — Louie resists "bro" stereotypes around expressing sadness
• 18:28 — Michael asks Louie which communication style he'd prefer to receive
• 21:23 — Louie comments on sharing feelings without justifying or blaming
• 41:08 — The outcome: Soft vulnerability is well-received; Louie is (annoyingly) validated
• 43:44 — Michael introduces "control" as a hidden emotional driver
• 54:30 — Debate over playfulness as a form of defensiveness

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Tone and Takeaways

Raw, banter-filled, and unflinchingly honest, the episode blends playful roasting and self-discovery. There’s a persistent undercurrent of “men need better models for softness,” and both hosts cycle between laughter, sarcasm, and genuine emotional insight. Those unfamiliar with vulnerability in relationships—especially men—will find this episode both validating and challenging.

Key takeaways:

• Directness can signal emotional defensiveness, especially if it blames or masks underlying fear.
• Vulnerable, "soft" communication is scary but deeply connecting—if difficult for those unpracticed.
• Masculinity programming can make softness feel unsafe or "unmanly."
• Humor and playfulness are often shields against true emotional honesty, but recognizing that is the first step toward change.
• Ultimately, being open about fears and sadness leads to deeper connection, even if the process is awkward and hard.

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For more: Ad-free and extended episodes are available via Patreon, and community engagement (including listener questions) is encouraged via their website and social platforms.

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This summary captures the main content and emotional journey of the episode, emphasizing both the humor and the vulnerability that make Secondhand Therapy a unique listen.

Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com Secondhand TherapyPod this episode of.

[B]

Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. Yes, BetterHelp is an online resource for therapy.

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Yeah.

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And I don't know who would have guessed it. I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy.

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That is the rumor that's going around.

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It's helped me a lot.

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Tell me more.

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It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

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I do.

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Okay, then has it helped you?

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Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now and my therapist is awesome.

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Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

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He did. I'm so happy with him. And like, whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two, two clicks and it's done.

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I have to call mine.

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Boo.

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It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of set up for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[A]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[B]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

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That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

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Yeah.

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Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time. Yeah.

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I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat.

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Yeah.

[B]

If. If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy. Or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better Help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody. And it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10% off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life. To change your life.

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I'm changed.

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He's Changing. Changing. Hello, my little bear cubs. It's Father.

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Dude.

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It's me, Father. It's me, Poppy.

[A]

Poppy.

[B]

It's me, daddy. O, it's me, dad. Dude, imagine. Can you think of at least a less sexy thing a woman could call you if she just goes, oh. Oh, dad.

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty bad, dude.

[B]

Do we have Michael Vick next door?

[A]

Yeah. What's going on, dude? Dog fights.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Happening live.

[B]

Jesus. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy and this is not professional advice in any way.

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Thanks, dad.

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You're welcome, son. What's going on? What do we got? Patreon. We got Patreon. You're gonna hear some ads. Okay.

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So many ads.

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Yeah.

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As we've been told, there's also tears in the after the pod episodes. Lots of tears there. Oh, T, E A R, S. Yeah, I'd be crying. Yeah, I'd be crying in the after the pod. I save it for then, you know.

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Yeah, good for you. Third tier, all that stuff. And live streams. We got to schedule a live stream for December.

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Guess who hasn't done a solo one yet?

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You.

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Oh.

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And if you sign up for that third tier, we're gonna send you the greatest sticker of all time, the greatest sign print of all time and wait. And a T shirt. Pretty good, right?

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Pretty good, dude.

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What else we have? Merch.

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Merch.

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If you're listening to this and you're thinking, my God, I'd like to support this podcast. I'm tired of being a fucking freeloader.

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No, be nice.

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What?

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Be nice.

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If you were thinking something like that. If you were having some self loathing yet accurate thoughts about consuming this fantastic content medium show for free. One, Correct. Two, go to therapy. Three. Go to Patreon.

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Four.

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We have merch available.

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These.

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We got crew necks, bro. These the Trauma Run Club crews, bro. We got a couple orders for guess where.

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Bangladesh.

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Qatar.

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Qatar.

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Name the Trauma run Club and we're globally in the run club, dude. If you want to join the Trauma Run Club, get yourself a crew neck. They're cozy as man tote bags. Yeah, vasectomy farmers were donating some of that dad hats. That's true. We also have an app. It's a routine builder. It's called Second Hand Daily. If you want to check it out. Studio.com. secondhand therapy. If you don't have interest in the app, still go to that website because they generated some AI images of me and they're ridiculous now.

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I love them. I love them. Yeah, Christmas came early with those.

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They didn't even give him tattoos.

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Him. It's you, huh?

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I worked really hard on the app. The app is actually super legit. But if you don't need an app, just go look at the photos. They're great. Studio.com. secondhand therapy.

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We're big on consent around here.

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One of us is.

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One of us.

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One of us.

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One of us.

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One of us is. How do you feel about Michigan?

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I like Michigan. Yep.

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I don't know if you know about the Michigan football coach, what's going on with him, but in cahoots, I don't.

[A]

Know anything about that.

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Okay. Michael P. Diddy Malone. All right.

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I don't own any baby oil.

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That's not true. You own any chest hair? I do have chest hair.

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That's where baby oil goes.

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That's where your sins are kept. Thanks for being here. Go to Patreon. You know I hate it here. Yeah. It's better on Patreon, though, right?

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No, it's worse.

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It's true. He cries over there a lot.

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That's where the show is.

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Yeah. Oh, my God.

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It's way worse. Anyways, welcome to the show. We love you. Thanks for being here. I don't know any baby oil. Bye.

[B]

Why is your chest are so shiny then? Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back.

[A]

Back secondhand therapy.

[B]

And we know that my therapist had the. I was going to say the balls, but it's a woman.

[A]

You can still say balls.

[B]

She had the balls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To say that my so called. I wouldn't call it this.

[A]

Oh, God. This means it's true.

[B]

My so called direct communication is a defense mechanism. So I am getting a new therapist. I'm getting someone who gets me. Yeah, who gets me. Do you understand?

[A]

Oh, yeah, I understand. I hear it loud and clear.

[B]

Who would you talk about this week?

[A]

No, no. Oh, no, no. We're not done with you. We're just getting started with you.

[B]

What do you want to know, idiot? Everything okay? What?

[A]

How did this come up?

[B]

Well, here's the thing. She's a liar and she's bad at her job. That's what happened.

[A]

Okay, Trump, what really happened.

[B]

As soon as I logged on. Shut up, piggy. Dude, the president saying, shut up, piggy.

[A]

Oh, my God. I can't even handle it.

[B]

Dude, what episode of south park are we on, bro? We can't talk. We got to digress from that.

[A]

I. Yeah, my. I just the rage.

[B]

Okay, yeah, I know he wants to do it now. Remember that one time you called that girl piggy during sex?

[A]

No, I never did.

[B]

And you were like, I thought she would like it because of her nose.

[A]

Now what you're trying to do is turn this into the shit show and it's not. Now this is secondhand therapy and we're not going to be around.

[B]

But you can't call a woman piggy. I never did that during sex. Just because she has a bit of a smushed nose. And I got to tell you, I met her. It wasn't even that smushed.

[A]

That never happened. Now let's talk about you being defensive again and distracting yourself from feelings.

[B]

I am going to finish this bit on the show, though.

[A]

I know you are.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You can't wait to do it.

[B]

Yeah, a little piggy boy. All right, so here's what's going on.

[A]

Something's wrong.

[B]

Can you stop avoiding the conversation? I'm trying to open up. Good Lord. All right, what's going on? My girl causing problems? Not really. So she's been, like, kind of taking time off, but she's been doing some substitute work. Just. She's a teacher. She's been subbing rather than teaching full time. Now, she has recently decided that she really misses being in the classroom and Isn't gonna go back full time. Okay. I don't like that. Yeah, yeah, I've gotten. Yeah, I've gotten very spoiled in, like, spending a lot of time with her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, she's. Dude, she's my best friend. I love spending time with her. We have a great time, we laugh, we have good conversations.

[A]

So.

[B]

I don't know, I supposed to tell her that I'm sad or something. Don't wanna.

[A]

You can't even. You can't even talk about it without around. What are you. What are you afraid of in this moment, that you're gonna come off too sincere?

[B]

Oh, no, I don't even about coming off. I just don't want to have the conversation at all, dude.

[A]

Really? Yeah. But why? Why. Why don't you.

[B]

Honestly, I don't think it's interesting.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

I think it's boring. And also, it's a lot of, like, oh, duh. All right.

[A]

I don't. I don't believe that for a second.

[B]

Okay, what do you think it is?

[A]

I think you're afraid to appear vulnerable on a public platform.

[B]

Oh, I don't want to appear vulnerable. I don't want to be vulnerable.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what? So what? What. What's that mean? What are you trying to say? All right.

[A]

Hey, man, he's a runner. He's a track star.

[B]

I got a crew neck for that now. Well, I'm also trying to, like. Okay, yeah, I'm bummed about it. Well, okay, so my therapist essentially gave me, like, Really gave me some good coaching on how to share my feelings with my partner in a soft, vulnerable way. And what that sounds like is something like this colon. Since you've been thinking about going back to work, I have realized that I am having a bit of a reaction. And really, I'm really enjoying the freedom that we have and the time that we spend together. And you going back to work. I feel really sad, and I'm really going to miss you. And I feel scared that this change in our lives is going to threaten our connection. Now, that sounds like something A would say. Am I wrong?

[A]

No, you are wrong.

[B]

Oh, my mistake.

[A]

Two things.

[B]

So you agree with my therapist?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you're ganging up on me. Go ahead. Two things.

[A]

Two things. Yeah. One, how does that. How does that differ from what you would normally say or if you'd say anything at all? Like how. What is the difference there? And two, why is that so difficult for you to say? Because that's not that's not.

[B]

It's not difficult for me to say. It's. Well, you know what? Yeah, it's a little difficult. Really less difficult right now, but. Yeah. I don't know, dude, looking your girl in the face, be like, hey, I'm scared and sad about losing you to a job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not a bro. That's why I think I might be a dude.

[A]

That's not behavior.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

That's strength, dog.

[B]

Feeling like you're going to miss your girl.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I thought that was.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. That's programming and my instinct of the way to communicate it is. I mean, I don't. I'm not going to give you specifics, but it's essentially because of X, Y, and Z. I'm concerned that our connection is going to be fractured and X, Y, and Z are going to be things about her going to work. So it's essentially blame because you're going back to work, because you're going to have less time, because even after work now, you're going to have to figure out when you're going to work out. You're still going to have to maintain personal time. Because of these things, I feel that our relationship or our connection is going to become damaged.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of what you're doing, which is not my intent.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it sure sounds like that, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you noticed the way that I was coached, my therapist, none of that came out of my mouth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was just my feelings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

How did. How do you feel about that versus the way you normally do it? Like seeing the difference and. And all that stuff?

[B]

I don't know that I have a feeling about. It makes sense.

[A]

Oh, you say. Yeah. Do you think it makes sense? Do you think it's more helpful that.

[B]

Way for some people? And, I mean, I'm sure for my partner, I'm sure it's very helpful to hear you just be like, hey, I'm gonna miss you, and I'm sad and scared that.

[A]

Yeah, whatever.

[B]

Rather than being like, hey, you know, you're doing this, it's gonna up our relationship. Just saying, like. Yeah.

[A]

Which way would you want to receive it?

[B]

You know, I think the first way.

[A]

No, buddy. Really?

[B]

No. Yeah, the way my therapist told me.

[A]

Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. I thought you meant the. Do you remember what you wanted?

[B]

Do you remember the order that I did them? First way was my therapist.

[A]

There's that defense.

[B]

I just. No, it's just need you to pay attention. We record.

[A]

That's all.

[B]

Onward.

[A]

Anything else that's It. Okay. So. Yeah. So knowing that you would rather receive it the other way. You still don't. You wouldn't do that without the coaching of your therapist in the past.

[B]

Well, I'm gonna take a line out of your script. Not even on my radar, dude.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No. So if somebody had came to me and said it so you can keep up the second way. Right. Which is the direct way, I'd be like, oh, yeah. They're just telling me their feelings.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I wouldn't be like, could you soften that? Not even a thing. Really? Yeah. But now that I've heard, it makes a lot of sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of a bummer, dude.

[A]

A bummer. Yeah.

[B]

That's not on my radar. Is that the tism.

[A]

It's leaning that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because you. Yeah. It's direct communication, which is just like you're. You're hearing what they're saying and not what they're not saying. The in betweens, the reading, the emotions and tones and lines and things like that.

[B]

Well, I also. I don't think you read those things. I think you interpret them and I think you can misinterpret very easily. So.

[A]

Yeah, I'd.

[B]

Reading it between. I would just ask.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I don't. That's not helpful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you do that. You're. You. Oh, you think you know what people are saying and you have it. So I don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. If I'd be like, well, are you blaming me for getting a job? Like, I would just ask rather than. I don't know. Maybe not, dude.

[A]

Rather than just feel it. Like, feel like, oh, they're. I feel like they're blaming me for getting a job.

[B]

I might feel it. But I would ask if that's what's happening. I don't know. So I'm talking to people like a. From now on. That's not true.

[A]

I've.

[B]

Remember, I'm quitting cold turkey. No, I am going to try to soften it and just. Because what I've gathered is. Yeah. They don't need to know why I'm feeling a certain way. I can just tell them what I'm feeling and what the fear is, I guess. Make sense?

[A]

Yes and no. I think there's a way. There's. You're gonna love this. I think there's room for context without blame.

[B]

Hey, do you need the context? Do you?

[A]

Sometimes.

[B]

Well, we're not talking about sometimes. Talking about a very specific conversation, sir.

[A]

In this instant instance. I. I don't think so. Because it's pretty cut and dry with like. This is a very specific thing you're going to take an. An opportunity. This opportunity. I am scared is going to hurt us. I don't think you have to go into details or context about why or what or this or that. But if you were, there is a way to do that without.

[B]

I think you would. Trying to play it in my head.

[A]

You.

[B]

You don't think you would take it as like a selfish thing? Like you think I'm just gonna abandon our relationship because I'm taking a job? I can't believe you think that of me.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No. But. I would feel bad and. Yeah. What about you Would I feel bad.

[B]

If the tables were turned? I don't know. Maybe when you say feel bad, you mean guilty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, possibly. But. Yeah, possibly. I don't know. Yeah. Are you hoping that I'm going to be softer with you now? No.

[A]

I know that'll never happen. I would love that because that's so.

[B]

What I said is are you hoping.

[A]

And I said I would love that.

[B]

That doesn't tell me whether you're hoping it'll happen. That tells me you would like it if it did.

[A]

Yeah. What is that and how would you interpret that?

[B]

Like I just said.

[A]

You really would. You really don't have an answer.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Now.

[A]

That's the tism. That's the tism.

[B]

So you are hoping I will.

[A]

Yes. Yes, that would be. That would be lovely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because that's what we get in the weeds with all the time.

[B]

Yeah. Why don't you get out of the weeds?

[A]

I can only.

[B]

You're dragging me into the weeds.

[A]

I can only meet you so far.

[B]

Meet me in the grass.

[A]

The tall grass.

[B]

I'm on. I'm in the street. Yeah, you're in the weeds. There's some manicured grass in the middle. Meet me in the grass, buddy.

[A]

You're in the house yelling at me. I'm way out in the. In the field.

[B]

Meet on the porch. It's me in the manicured grass. We don't have to get in the weeds.

[A]

Yeah, we definitely need a lawnmower to get through some.

[B]

We don't. Cuz I'm not in the weeds. So a mower is not going to do me any good. But cause noise. That's all it's going to do for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you can get out of the weeds, I can come down off the porch. We can meet in the gr. Even the gravel. Now let's do grass. Let's go through the weeds.

[A]

I would love that.

[B]

I'll meet you in the grass. Are you taking maca yet? I. I am and.

[A]

It'S pretty cool. Yeah, I'm only on day three.

[B]

Yeah. Which one are you taking? You on the black. Yeah, I do the black too. I do the black and I do the tri blend.

[A]

Oh, you do two.

[B]

I do two.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Technically three, because the blend is a blend of three. Okay, well, so if you don't know about maca, it is a root native to Peru. It grows in three colors. Black, red and yellow. Or yellow or yellow. Yellow or yellow. I take the black and I take the tri blend. My girl takes the red and you take the black.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Typically, yeah, men take the black, women take the red and then you intersperse the tribal end. But it has a lot of benefits. I've been taking it daily for a little over a year. I have noticed a lot mood, skin, hair, energy, if you heard testosterone, you know, libido. I've had a lot of improvements.

[A]

Yeah, all true.

[B]

And we get. Well, I get our. I get my maca and I have been from a company called the Maca Team. They are the biggest supplier of genuine maca from Peru. The biggest supplier in America. And they are nice enough to partner with. Partner with us and give a discount code. If you want to try out maca, you can go to the makateam.com secondhand therapy and you can use code bear cub for 10 off.

[A]

Oh, fancy.

[B]

So yeah, if you want to try some maca, try it out dudes. Try the black ladies, try the red or try the try but at least go to the website, read about it, see if you might want to do it. It's not pharmaceutical. It's all natural. I've been taking it for over a year. I like it. You're three days in, you're less annoying. So we did it.

[A]

We did it.

[B]

Themaka team.com secondhand therapy check it out.

[A]

Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to two episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with accident along with access to a an entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other show.

[B]

It is fun.

[A]

It's non therapy related. It is fun, super fun. Plus you have early access to my new podcast series Happy not funny and it's ad free episodes on that as well. Plus fun merch discounts. Also fun Live show. Things where we interact with the audience.

[B]

Live streams is what he's trying to say.

[A]

We are not going on tour. Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[B]

You said live shows.

[A]

Well, same, same, you know. No, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[B]

Intimate.

[A]

How about that?

[B]

Intimate. There's no end.

[A]

Yeah, like the candidate.

[B]

Like the candies. Intimate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just. If you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You can argue. Too much dope sticker, though. So if you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier, if you want the other podcast, if you want bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker. And we are going to send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still, way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you, and then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats, and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[A]

We'll see you over there.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

So getting back to the first thing. What brought this up with your therapist saying that you were defensive with your. Your directness is. Defensiveness is this.

[B]

Yeah. Essentially that instead of being vulnerable and just saying, hey, here's how I'm feeling, and I'm scared. I go directly being like, well, you're doing this and your traits of X, Y, and Z, I think it's gonna be hard for you to balance. And I'm afraid that you don't need all that. Even though true, you don't need to hear it. I don't need to share it.

[A]

Do you. Do you see how that can come off? Try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes here.

[B]

Yeah. Don't talk to me condescendingly, but go ahead.

[A]

I'm not. I'm just buffering you.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

Do you think that that can come off as attacking.

[B]

Well, like I said earlier, even though the intention isn't there, I think it can be blaming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I know you specifically, if you're being blamed or taking fault for something, you find that it feels like an attack. So for you, sure, but for everybody, I don't know.

[A]

But just in that instance there with that example you said where you. There was a part in there where you said, based on your traits of X, Y and Z, I know this. Like that section of it. Do you think that that can come off as attacking?

[B]

Depending who I'm talking to, sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think there are people in my life that no matter what I say, they can feel attacked. So maybe some people would, some people wouldn't.

[A]

Yeah. And in order to. But you're not interested in. What's the. Just making sure that doesn't happen altogether. So you wouldn't. You wouldn't go out of your way to soften it just in case that person might be. Whatever. You're going to go the other route where you're going to go direct and then deal with it in an. If it comes up.

[B]

If I'm taking the time to make a choice, then no, I will choose to do it softly. But I think especially for me, most of the time in a conversation like that, I'm trying to be honest and I'm trying to be vulnerable. And the effort I'm putting into those things probably takes away from the time of evaluating the audience to see how they are receptive to it. But if it is a situation like this one where I was having feelings and I was trying to sort out what my feelings were and. Yeah. I mean, she had a sub gig. She was gone. Like, there was plenty of time to figure out how to deliver it and for the intention of having a successful and connected conversation. So in. If all those luxuries are true, like, yeah. I would make the choice to, as I've learned in therapy, to meet people where they are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I'm always trying to do. But sometimes it's easier than others. Sometimes I miss the mark. Sometimes I make mistakes. Like, not perfect, but it's always the intent. Yeah. And sometimes I think I'm doing that and I'm not.

[A]

Yeah. Do you think when you're being direct, it's being vulnerable for you?

[B]

Sometimes.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You'd rather have people be direct with you than try to placate or.

[B]

I don't ever want to be placated to. No.

[A]

Placates. Maybe the wrong word. Catered to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Awareness.

[B]

Yeah. I like directness.

[A]

Does it matter how heavy the subject is.

[B]

In this moment? I mean, I have zero emotional imbalance right now, so it's easy for me to say no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if we were in a different scenario and you know, I mean, my girl had a hard day and you and I are doing like, I'm sure I'd have a different answer.

[A]

So in a setting. You talked about this a few episodes ago. I mean, it's been probably a month ago now. Yeah.

[B]

Keep track.

[A]

Yeah. You guys had gotten into a little. A little tiff because there was. There was a lie that happened. She was keeping something from you in that scenario because that was a pretty heavy thing. You guys were in it for a few days. So in that scenario, you want. You would rather have direct communication instead of her trying to cater or be aware of your triggers or emotions or however you want to say it, you'd rather her just be.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Give it to you. Heavy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think for me, one, I hate being lied to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't stand that. And also, I tend to. I don't know, I usually, I really, you know, in moments when I'm heightened and if it has to do with dishonesty, I'm running to the worst possible, worst case scenario. So give me the facts because whatever I think happened is worse than what happened. And that's what I'm. That's what I'm feeling based on right now is a scenario I've made in my head. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And does context help or. It doesn't matter. In those, it like in that situation.

[B]

The context of why the person lied or the context of why it's happening.

[A]

What happened, why they kept it from you, like the context of any of that.

[B]

Not really straight facts.

[A]

And then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no good reason to lie to me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because the only reason to lie is because you're scared of getting in trouble or you're scared of being the person that hurt somebody you cared about. Like that's the only reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you're gonna like this with context. There are some situations where you just keep your mouth shut forever.

[A]

What do you mean by that?

[B]

I'm gonna give a hypothetical a cheating.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

So if the context around cheating is that it truly was a one time mistake that you really up and it's never going to happen again, the only, the only thing you get from telling your partner about it is relieving your own guilt. That's it.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

It makes sense.

[B]

What do you. What does your partner get from that?

[A]

It's so weird to hear that from you, who is.

[B]

I know.

[A]

King of accountability. Like, that's what they get. They get accountability. They get honesty. They get.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. It's. It's. It feels weird to say that, but I do. Yeah, I do think that. I mean, yeah, if you cheated, you're like, oh, I up. Like, this will ruin her. It'll ruin our relationship. And it's an. I know. It's never going to happen again. It was a catastrophic mistake. You got to live with the guilt, dude. Or lady, you got to live with it. And you're going to feel bad about it for a really long time. And you're supposed to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That may be a hot take. I don't know.

[A]

That's a hot take.

[B]

That's a pretty.

[A]

That's piping hot.

[B]

Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Are you?

[A]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone. Okay? Okay. It's called the light phone.

[A]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[B]

The light. Yeah, you seem to use it. The light phone. Also known, some people call it a dumb phone.

[A]

Mmm.

[B]

Anyway, it's a smartphone. It has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[A]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[B]

Kinda. Oh, yeah, I love that. It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. Got a camera? Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough. They sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone three, use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[A]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[B]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world.

[A]

So you did this new approach. How is it received?

[B]

Very well. Barely. So annoying. Dude, why? I don't know. Because now I have to do it again. What the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That was great. She understood. She feels the same way. Very connected, very repaired.

[A]

Is it. Is it the outcome that you wanted?

[B]

I don't know what the outcome I wanted was.

[A]

I had, I had a follow up going, oh, no, I finished that.

[B]

I, I don't know what the outcome I wanted was. I mean, I don't know if it's that. Well, What I've learned in parts, the real, the real thing I think I wanted was to be heard and to be comforted. But I think there is a small part of me that wanted her to be like, of course I choose you. I, I won't even like, yeah, yeah. But if that was a real thing that happened, I would hate it if she did turn it. Like, I'm not even gonna interview. Like, you're. Yeah, okay. Blah, blah, blah. That would feel like, dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think there's a small part of me that wanted that, but it's not a realistic desire. So I think what I wanted was to be heard and to be comforted. And yes, I did get what I wanted.

[A]

Two things.

[B]

What was your follow up?

[A]

This is, that's one of the two things.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Do you think you would. Had a different outcome if you would have went the way that you were just gonna go in the first place, being direct and.

[B]

A different outcome? No, I think the outcome would have been the same, but I think it would have taken a lot longer to get there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think the path there would have been more contentious.

[A]

Yeah. Conflict. Yeah. Second thing, I wanted to talk about this earlier.

[B]

You didn't.

[A]

I know. Did control come up at all in therapy?

[B]

No. Would you like to submit a thought?

[A]

Yeah. Have you seen any connection with control with, with the scenario? In two different ways. One, in controlling a situation and the outcome that you, that you would like. And two, the control in the way of, again, in that example of like, I know you better than you do. I know that you're. This is going to stress you out. You're not going to have time for this because I know that you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So like, what are you doing? I know what's best. So that, that way. So those two different types of control.

[B]

No, it didn't come up. I'm sure there's some validity to it, but. No, the root of it is just scared. Scared and sad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Control comes up a lot for me. Because of fear. That's why I was asking.

[B]

No, because even if, even if I did have control, like I said, if she did then not do it in pursuit, like, I'd feel terrible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think there's validity to what you're saying, but no, it didn't come up.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Control in the way of, like, if I can talk her out of this, then we'll be safe. I'll protect the relationship if I can convince her this is a bad idea.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I also don't think it's a bad idea. Yeah, it just sucks. Yeah. Yeah, it just sucks. We can do whatever we want whenever we want right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's. I'm. We're gonna be able to do that on weekends now.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Yeah, that sucks.

[A]

Yeah. But you're going from dad to stepdad every other weekend. You're gonna be able to.

[B]

Yeah, and it's. But it's also, like, I should be honest with myself. Like, this was always going to happen eventually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, we're not. Neither myself nor her in a point are in a situation of having an abundance of money to just live freely forever.

[A]

So sign up for Patreon, guys. It would really help us out.

[B]

For the love of God.

[A]

For the love of love. If you love love.

[B]

And also if you're like, what did she lie about? It's in the after the pond, isn't it? I think it is.

[A]

It is. Yeah. We didn't talk about it on.

[B]

Yeah, about in the. After the pod.

[A]

Yeah, you got it. You sign up for Patreon, man. It's all there.

[B]

Please, please, please. So I can lock my girl in a dungeon?

[A]

She'll never work again. Oh, man.

[B]

Isn't it crazy? That's like, some guys, like, not their direct desire, but they truly do just want to have their girl just be like, a little.

[A]

Oh, that's trad. Wifing for sure.

[B]

Is that what that is?

[A]

Yeah, it's traditional wife, which is like, stay at home, you don't. You pick up the mail. That's the only time you really leave the house. You pick up the mail and you go grocery shopping. Other than that, you're home, you're making dinner.

[B]

She's just like an accessory to your life.

[A]

Yeah. She is a maid and a secretary and a. Whatever for you. Yeah. And you go out and make the money and come home and dinner's ready and she's raising the kids and all that stuff. Weird. Super weird, dude.

[B]

All right, what's going on with you, dude?

[A]

I don't know, man. I've been in a little bit of. A Little bit of a fun.

[B]

Oh, the funk.

[A]

The funk.

[B]

What's up with it? Hey, hey. What's up with it?

[A]

What's up with the fun?

[B]

Sup with it?

[A]

Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's been a struggle And I've been trying to. What with me, with the funk is. I'm also dealing with and have been dealing with permission to rest. So the funk coming up with my permission to rest. Because now I'm. I'm double. I'm double resting.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah, doc, I'm in a funk. I'm not doing anything. And then I'm also trying to, like, allow myself to not do something sometimes which looks like, you know, working on the bike or, you know, doing whatever. And so, yeah, the funk really with that. Because now I feel like double failure.

[B]

You're. You've been in a funk a lot. Yeah, like every other week.

[A]

It's the holidays.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

And you still don't want to try like a Zoloft or something? No.

[A]

I know you. I know you've been asking me about this.

[B]

Yeah, well, because when you got on Adderall for your adhd, it was life changing. Yeah. And then when you got on the anti anxiety medication, it was life changing. Mm, call me crazy. I'm following the breadcrumbs. Getting on something for sad could be life changing.

[A]

No, two things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One, I think it's been a mixture of like, breakup holidays, working on being lonely, like that's putting me in some funks. And two, I did ask my psychiatrist. I told her about double dosing my anxiety on my anxiety pills on accident and how I was never happier. And she was like, oh. She's like, okay, when you. When we re up your medication, I'll make it so you can take one before you go to bed and one in the morning. And that way we'll test that theory out and see if. See if it improves your mood. So I am exploring in those ways.

[B]

Okay. But it's not an ssri. What is? You're getting hooked on Xanax or some. Are you?

[A]

I don't think so. I don't know. I don't know how that works. No, it's not. I'm not on Xanax. You think I'm on Xanax?

[B]

I don't know what you're on, dude. I just asked.

[A]

Oh, I'm busin. I thought you were asking if it's an SS ssri. Yeah, I have no idea. I don't know.

[B]

Buspin?

[A]

Yeah. Huh.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know her. Hey, when does that start?

[A]

The next time I re up. So I'm due in like a week or week and a half, Something like that.

[B]

You excited?

[A]

Starting the new year? Double dose and no.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Scared.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Duh. Huh. New thing Scared?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're terrified of new things plus medication, buddy. Get the fuck out of here.

[B]

Yeah, get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You hate new things.

[A]

I don't hate new things. I think there's a time and a place to try new things. And those times and places very finite. It has to be a perfect. A perfect window.

[B]

Define. Can you define? Give me the. Give me the perfect time to try.

[A]

Something new when I have absolutely nothing going on and nowhere to be. Nothing to do. Yeah, I can try something new.

[B]

You just described four days a week.

[A]

That's not. That's not. Listen, I tried your little curry last night and whatever.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was great. Yeah, the curry's good. That's.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah. I've decided I'm just gonna start force feeding you guys.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

Okay, so non food.

[A]

Non food. It still has to be a perfect timing thing, because in this. You know what? And that's not really a. I don't know if this is a new thing or an ADHD thing, because I think it falls into that category.

[B]

Hey, yeah, It's a you thing. Let's be accountable. What?

[A]

I forgot. ADHD is not real.

[B]

No one said ADHD is not real. You have adhd?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's a you thing. Just like when you come to me, you're like, hey, my anxiety has a question. No, bitch, you have a question, because your anxiety is your responsibility. So you have a question. And if you want to blame your anxiety, that's on you. Dude, you have a question. Go ahead.

[A]

In those moments, I'm not blaming my anxiety. I'm playfully bringing up my anxiety so I don't have to be accountable. Not be accountable, but in your words. You ready?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Be a little pussy.

[B]

Sometimes you gotta be a little dude.

[A]

That's what I've been telling you.

[B]

You don't even do it. Why would I listen?

[A]

I don't do it with you because.

[B]

Now that's the most hypocritical of all time.

[A]

I do do it with you because I said.

[B]

What I said was. Are you hoping I do. Said I wouldn't love it? And I go, do you do it with me? And you go, no, I do do with you.

[A]

Sometimes you.

[B]

Should walk into a fire and then stay there until you're dead. You know, this is why I don't.

[A]

Share my feelings with you.

[B]

Okay, tell me about your. What? You don't want to be a little boy? And then what?

[A]

I don't even know what I was gonna say. Oh, sometimes I am a little boy with you. And other times I'm not.

[B]

Give me. Give me an example. When you were a little boy, when.

[A]

I said, my anxiety has a question for you.

[B]

That's not boy. That's. That's not boy.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

That is you not taking accountability that you have a question because you feel uncomfortable about something.

[A]

I have a question because my anxiety is heightened. And so playfully, I would say my anxiety has a question for you.

[B]

Be playful, people.

[A]

I know you hate me.

[B]

Be vulnerable.

[A]

You be vulnerable.

[B]

Being playful. Being playful is a defense mechanism. No.

[A]

Honestly, I don't know. Probably.

[B]

Oh, cool, dude. Well, that's the end of the podcast then. You. Do you understand what just happened?

[A]

Enlighten me.

[B]

You're not being a little boy. You're being playful. We know that. That's a defense mechanism. Hey, I'm feeling really anxious. Can I ask you a question? My anxiety would like to know. Shut up.

[A]

That's the same thing.

[B]

Nope. Sure isn't.

[A]

That's the same thing.

[B]

No, it isn't. No.

[A]

What do you think I'm saying in that moment, then?

[B]

I know what you're saying.

[A]

Okay, then.

[B]

Hey, I'm crippled with fear that you're mad at me and I'm gonna be in trouble. So I'm gonna go. My anxiety would like to know. No, dude. Nah, not the same. The same reason I can't go, hey, my autism would like to tell you that you're a it.

[A]

No, dude, you've said that before.

[B]

I've never once said, my autism would like to say.

[A]

You. You have said something around that. I remember standing by the table.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were across the kitchen and you said, hey, I know this is weird, man. Yeah. I. I need you to move that chair leg so it is perfectly aligned with the thing. I know it's weird, but it's it with me. That. That's the same as me saying, my anxiety has a question for you.

[B]

No, the. It would be the same if I said, hey, my autism needs a favor. That would be the same.

[A]

I'm gonna rock your brain right now.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That's what I hear when you say, this is going to be weird. I need you to. I hear, hey, my autism needs you to line up that chair or else I'm going to lose my mind.

[B]

Yep. You often hear what I'm not saying. Have you noticed that pattern?

[A]

Yes, but that is. Same. Same. That's what you're saying. Same, same.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

What are you saying in that moment, then?

[B]

Hey, I know this is weird, but.

[A]

Why is it weird?

[B]

It's weird because one, I don't have autism. Two, you're more autistic than me. Three, it's weird because I know that most people wouldn't even notice that, nor would they even bring it up and be like, hey, could you do this? I know that's weird. I'm saving us the time of being like, dude, that's insane. I know. Okay.

[A]

That is, for me, it's the same same. It accomplishes the same same. But for you, it's not same same.

[B]

No, because I'm being direct. Hey, I know this is weird. Can you do this? My autism has a favor to ask. Shut the up. No, my autism doesn't have a favor. I have a problem. And I know it's weird. And if you want to say no, I get it, because it's a crazy request. That's. You think that's the same? I hate. I hate you in this moment, dude.

[A]

Same, same, same, same.

[B]

That shit drives me nuts. Because you know what? It doesn't matter. I feel frustrated with you, and I'm not going to tell you why, because that context is going to be direct. My boy. My boy. And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.