I Accidentally Humanized my Mom | #127

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy – Episode #127: "I Accidentally Humanized my Mom"

Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone
Studio: PonyBear Studios

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and hilarious episode, Louie Paoletti reflects on a recent visit home and the unexpected emotional depth of his growing relationship with his mother. Inspired by a desire to see his mom not just as “Mom” but as her own person, Louie explores the shifting dynamic between child and parent in adulthood, grief, personal change, and the awkward beauty of family connection. The episode is rich with raw vulnerability, banter, and comedic digressions as Louie and Michael compare experiences with their own parents, touch on themes of empathy, emotional growth, and what it means to “humanize” those who raised us.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Intentional Family Visit

• Setting the Stage [10:05]:

  • Louie describes hyping himself up on a plane ride home:
    “I decided that my weekend... I’m gonna be intentional about getting to know my mother as a human, as a woman, as not just my mother.”
    [10:20–11:26]

• A Missed Opportunity Turned Organic:

  • Louie admits he never formally told his mom the plan:
    “Never did it. Now I’m going to tell you why, buddy. I didn’t tell her. I gotta tell her everything. I know. You would have told her—”
    [11:26–11:50]
  • Michael jokes he would’ve gone straight to his mom with his feelings, highlighting their different family communication styles.

Childhood Perceptions & the Passage of Time

• Why We Don't Seek Connection with Parents as Kids [13:03]:
  • Louie muses on youthful self-involvement:
    “When I was younger... connecting with my mom, getting to know her—valuing time—like, not even in my priorities of life...”
  • Michael shares:
    “I think it’s because you think you have time. Your parents... are so constant in your life... it’s almost bothersome.”
    [13:43–14:40]

Moments of Vulnerability with Mom

• Breaking the Ice with Humor [15:10]:
  • Louie describes his mom sharing an embarrassing story (accidentally soiling herself), signaling her openness:
    “...she told me about a time she shit her pants recently. This is the opening door. She’s playful.”
    [15:10–15:55]
  • This is a sign his mom is “feeling light,” perhaps due to retirement and more time with her granddaughter.

The Unexpected Heart-to-Heart

• A Private Conversation Between Mom and Girlfriend [18:10–19:44]:
  • While Louie runs an errand, his mom opens up to his girlfriend about watching him grieve and fall in love again after his partner’s death.
    • Michael reacts emotionally:
      “You’re killing me, man.”
      “That’s so sweet, dude.”
      [19:25–20:10]
  • Louie shares:
    “Talked to my girl about how [my mom] was really worried about me for a long time... how hard it was for her to watch... and that she’s really grateful that, you know, I found someone...”
    [19:29–19:44]

Rethinking Parental Identity

• Is My Mom Changing, or Am I? [21:32–22:20]:

  • Louie questions whether his perception is changing due to maturity, or if his mom is actually becoming a different, more open person as she ages and becomes a grandmother.
    “Is she changing or am I changing the way I see her? ...I'm sure all of it’s probably true.”
    [22:20–24:45]

• Michael’s take:
  “My mother and I were always close... she always felt like more of a friend than a mom... But I never learned about her aspirations or childhood. I never got to date my mom.”
  [27:26–29:10]

The Power—and Limits—of Family Stories

• Do Stories Connect Us to the Dead? [32:06–34:23]:
  • Michael shares how stories from his stepsister about his deceased father gave him newfound empathy:
    “That was the first time I saw my father as like... just a dude trying to figure it out, man.”
    [34:23]
  • Louie is more skeptical:
    “If someone’s gonna tell me a story about my grandfather... I’m getting that story from that person’s perspective through their lens, through their memory. It’s their memory... I wonder if it’s true. Accurate, that is.”
    [32:18–33:07]
  • This leads to a characteristic Louie/Michael exchange about neurodiversity and trust in narrative subjectivity.

Emotional Legacy & Parental Choices

• Learning Why His Mom Left His Dad [39:33–47:18]:

  • Louie’s mom shares her reasoning for divorcing his dad early: fearing a “broken home" stigma but choosing her children’s emotional well-being:
    “I’d rather my kids not have memories of their parents hating each other.”
    [42:57–43:22]
  • Louie asks about her initial attraction to his father:
    “She said she fell in love with his family...with his father—and thought that’s what she was signing up for.”
    [43:37–44:09]
  • Louie finds no resentment; he’s always trusted that his mom’s decision was right.

• Imagining Alternate Childhoods [47:21–48:01]:

  • Louie speculates on how having his dad around might have changed him:
    “I would have had a much lower opinion of women...more of a boys’ boy...but maybe also more confident, less scared as a kid...But I think everything happened for the best.”
    [47:32–49:05]

Generational Shifts, Technology, and Human Connection

• Modern Parenting, Technology, and Social Shifts [52:14–55:52]:
  • The hosts riff on how family dynamics, parental attention, and social skills have changed in a world of smartphones, screens, and evolving gender norms.
  • Michael on observed generational shyness:
    “There’s this new kind of, like, embarrassment...this shyness that I’ve noticed since COVID...The embarrassment of saying ‘we’re doing a thing’ is so...they’d rather die, you know?”
    [54:16–55:45]
  • Louie wonders:
    “When are people going to be okay having a happy life without proving to people they have a happy life?”
    [56:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Louie summarizing the episode’s theme:
  “I’m gonna be intentional about getting to know my mother as a human, as a woman, as not just my mother.” [10:20]
• Michael gets emotional over Louie’s mom reaching out:
  “That’s so sweet, dude.” [19:27]
  “Just the art of noticing, right? ...Here your mother is, witnessing this thing...she hasn’t brought this up to you.” [20:12]
• Louie’s insight on perception vs. reality:
  “Is she changing or am I changing the way I see her?” [22:20]
• On stories as context:
  Michael: “Stories are context, and context helps you decide [how you see people].” [33:29]
• Louie on his mom’s tough choice:
  “She decided… I’d rather my kids not have memories of their parents hating each other.” [42:57]
• On generational disconnects:
  Louie: “I hope that's not true. It seems like younger people are starting to care about humanity and people being treated fairly, at least...but they also don't want to have sex with each other because they've been watching people have sex since they were 10 years old online.” [54:08–54:16]
• Michael on parental attention & technology:
  “Now, like, times have changed so much that...there is no, for lack of a better term, like, higher power in the house.” [51:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intention to connect with Mom: 10:05–11:27
• Childhood obliviousness to parental humanity: 13:03–14:40
• Mom’s vulnerable bathroom story: 15:10–15:55
• Mom and girlfriend’s emotional talk: 18:10–20:10
• Louie ponders: Am I changing or is Mom?: 21:32–22:20
• Michael on "dating" your mom: 27:26–29:10
• Are family stories enough?: 32:06–34:23
• Mom explains divorce decision: 39:33–43:22
• How an absent father might have changed Louie: 47:21–49:05
• Generational dynamics, kids, and tech: 52:14–55:52
• Authentic happiness vs. performative happiness: 56:13

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode blends humor, banter, and vulnerable honesty. Louie’s journey to “humanize” his mom isn’t wrapped in a neat therapeutic bow, but unfolds with unexpected moments of connection, disappointment, and new understanding. The hosts’ differing experiences with parents add layers to the discussion, showing there’s no single way to relate to—or become empathetic to—the people who raised us.

Listeners are left with the message that personal growth often means seeing others as whole people—messy, evolving, and just trying their best, too. The journey isn’t perfect, but it often brings laughter, tears, and deeper empathy along the way.

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For more discussion (and wild Tupperware travel stories), visit the Secondhand Therapy Patreon.

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Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod when it's time

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[C]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

[A]

That's correct.

[C]

All right. I said I was coming with a story or a word of the day.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I already forgot.

[C]

Shocking. I'll give you your pick. Do you want a story or word of the day?

[A]

I want a story. I always want a story.

[C]

Okay. Violent food poisoning, shitting and throwing up all over the place.

[A]

Can I choose word? I want word.

[C]

No, I forgot it.

[A]

God damn it.

[C]

Yeah. Daddy had food poisoning.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or stomach flu. I don't know. I assume it's food poisoning. Yeah, I kicked it. I'm good now.

[A]

Healed?

[C]

I believe. So.

[A]

This is what you said a few days ago, and then you ordered a burger and put it in the fridge and ate it the next morning and gave yourself re. Food poisoning. Mm.

[C]

Mm.

[A]

Okay, well, good luck. Mm. Was that the story?

[C]

As I was eating it, I was like, what do you. There's no way you can digest this. Yeah, but I just wanted, like, hot food so bad.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

Stupid. Should have stuck to my applesauce. I had my applesauce and my peanut butter toast. Yeah, but no. Yeah.

[A]

When I had that stomach virus right before I went in for the vasectomy, day two, I thought I was healed. Ordered a pizza. Hey, not healed.

[C]

Yeah, don't do that.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[C]

So that's the story. I'm done expelling bile from my orifices.

[A]

Great. I love these. This news story.

[C]

All right, we're gonna talk about some therapy. If you would like to support the podcast, that would.

[A]

That'd be great.

[C]

I have a $12,000 hospital bill. Please join Patreon.

[A]

You can hear about that. Hospital bill.

[C]

Oh, yeah, I didn't talk about it on here.

[A]

No, they have no idea.

[C]

Oh, I have a hospital bill.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, Louie's had a. I've had a

[C]

string of bad Luck, you guys. The string of my body is not. I think I'm okay. I think I'm good. I'm kicking it. If you want to know what's going on. Patreon.com Secondhand therapy pod.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[C]

I talk about all that stuff on the other podcast, the other show. It's a good way to support the podcast. We'd appreciate it. Ad free episodes, early access, bunch of stuff. Go check it out. We have merch available secondhand therapy pod dot com.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

And if you would like to get involved in some philanthropy, we sell merch@vasectomy farms.com. a portion of all of that is donated to women's reproductive resources. If you'd like to contact us, you can do that via a phone number, via an email address, or a physical address. All that information is below in the episode description. Holler at us, dog.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or don't.

[A]

Or don't.

[C]

Or don't.

[A]

But do. But. But you should.

[C]

You know, we've had a few people reach out asking to send us stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

One guy has a. A brewery, I think, in, like, Pennsylvania. And he's like. He had. He did a play on the DARE logo, and he's like, I'd love to send you guys a couple shirts. I was like, oh, great. Never came. We had a different guy who. He said he owns a hat company.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And he's like, I see you guys. Are. You guys like hats? You wear hats? I was like, we love hats.

[A]

Be wearing them every episode.

[C]

He's like, what teams? I was like, oh, I'm anything with a P logo, pretty much. And I was like. And he's. I like, fitted. He's more of a snapback kind of guy. And he's, you know, Phillies, Tigers, kind of thing. Didn't get anything. So.

[A]

Hey, thanks.

[C]

I appreciate the thought.

[A]

We love it.

[C]

I like the thought and I love being lied to. Thanks for being here. All right, here's an episode of

[A]

something.

[C]

Whatever. You know how I keep telling you I'm doing a psychology class? Doing it.

[A]

I. Okay. Are you really?

[C]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University, found some classes, bro.

[A]

Oh, you fancy.

[C]

Now I'm out here.

[A]

He's a schoolboy.

[C]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes. Snhu. Go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career. You want to start a New thing. Snhu. What about you?

[A]

I mean, I love to learn.

[C]

Oh, God, he's never learned.

[A]

I need to. I need to do it more officially.

[C]

You never learned a thing. Anyway, if you want to check out SNHU and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu. Edu, Sht. And you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast, learn some stuff, start a new career, do whatever you need. Go back to school. Snhu. Edu. Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info, start some learning. You're welcome. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[A]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[C]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[A]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[C]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it. Okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychicsource.com sht10, okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[C]

Talk about my love life.

[A]

Trying to see some. Some.

[C]

Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies. And it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[A]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[C]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us. Cuz I want to hear how it went.

[A]

Oh, I can't.

[C]

I.

[A]

Please, please DM us.

[C]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[A]

I want the tea.

[C]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[A]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[C]

And we know that. So I was. I wasn't like, trying to, like, hype myself up for it, but. All right, so I'm on the airplane, right? I'm sitting there, my girl's next to me in her own world eating hot Cheetos.

[A]

No, no pocket pancakes, no pocket pancake.

[C]

We did have pocket pulled barbecue sandwiches

[A]

on the way back. No, dude, we did. Side note, just real quick. I took you to the airport. Yeah. And you had a glass bowl.

[C]

It was a Tupperware bowl. Yeah.

[A]

It had a lid of overnight oats that you were taking to the airport to eat at the airport and take this dish with you on your travels. That blew my fucking mind.

[C]

I have a story for you about that that I don't think I ever told you.

[A]

Shit show for that. Join us on Patreon if you'd like to hear the glass Tupperware.

[C]

Would you like the headline of the story?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I shared some with an airport employee.

[A]

Oh, my God. Why haven't I heard this fucking story?

[C]

I'm so mad right now because not everything's a story. Right? But you know what? Knowing you, I should have told you about this. But yeah, I did share them with somebody.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Also, I'd like to put on the record, I make the best overnight oats in the game.

[A]

It does it.

[C]

I make the best.

[A]

I'm save it.

[C]

Overnight oats in the game. And I'm going to tell you what else. I have one batch of overnight oats, over 90 grams of protein. I will figure out how to get these to 100 grams of protein. 100 grams of protein in one meal. I'm going to do it. And they taste incredible. What are you upset about?

[A]

There's so much here that I have heard nothing about. What I thought we were. I'm upset about our friendship.

[C]

You're upset about my overnight oats recipe.

[A]

I'm upset about the level of shareability. Yeah, yeah. I'm upset with you. Go on. You're on an airplane.

[C]

So I'm on an airplane. I'm hyping myself up. Not hyping myself up.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I got this. This love of my life crunching away.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I got my ipod, my wired earbuds, and I have a moment. I'm like, dude, this is so intentional right now. Look at you. And then I realized, well, I am flying home to see my family. What am I intending to do this weekend? Oh, brother. So I decided that my weekend. Well, it wasn't even a weekend. It was like, who gives a. Whatever the days are that I'm in Tucson, I'm gonna be intentional about getting to know my mother as a human, as a woman, as not just my mother. And I decided the best way to do that is to tell her that I want to do that while I'm in town, set aside some time for her, and I To connect so I can get to know her better.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Never did it. Now I'm going to tell you why, buddy. What? I didn't tell her.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I gotta tell her everything. I know. You would have told her every. Oh, yeah. My mom's my best friend. What?

[A]

I would have been straight up. Yeah. Hey, I'd like to carve out some time for this weekend. I really want to get to know you. What's going on? I love you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Why didn't call your mom?

[A]

Tell her, you know I don't have a long distance calling on my phone. Secondly.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the alley oop for? Or not alley oop. What's the. Let me take two. What's the.

[C]

Give me a sports reference.

[A]

I was trying.

[C]

What's the alley oop for? I was like, is this about the oats?

[A]

No. What's the word I'm looking for? It's football. Jesus.

[C]

You weren't even in the right spot.

[A]

No. What's the word I'm looking for when you change it? Last second audible. Hey, what's the audible about?

[C]

I didn't give my mom enough credit because it kind of just happened.

[A]

Okay. But it's. It hasn't just happened before in the past, like, ever. Right.

[C]

You know, I. I've been thinking about that. I don't know, I wonder if it has and I took it for granted or. Yeah. I didn't notice it or didn't embrace it. I don't know.

[A]

Didn't embrace it. It's interesting because you're younger then and you're less intentional, I would imagine, especially because this is like a new intention that you've set. So I imagine these moments have come up and you don't know and you're just.

[C]

I also wonder when. When you're younger. Well, not you. Me, Sure. I would like to think when one is younger, but when I was younger. Yeah. That wasn't even, as you would say, on my radar.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Connecting with my mom, getting to know her. Valuing time. Like, not even in my priorities of life.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Why is that?

[A]

I think it's because you think. Well, for me, you think you have time. Your parents. Yeah, Your parents. Like, it feels like when you're young, like they're gonna live forever and they're gonna be here, and it's like they're just. They're so constant in your life that you're like, oh, yeah. This is just like, they're almost bothersome, you know, you're like, oh, yeah, okay. I know. I think that's what we get hung up on is like, yeah, I'm with you all the time. You're always here. And then you get older and there's like, less and less. And I think that' what happens when you start your own family, you move away and, like, all that stuff, then you start realizing, like, oh, my time with them is.

[C]

Does an abortion count as starting a family?

[A]

I'm really trying to have a moment with you here, and this is how you treat me.

[C]

I got an abortion and a vasectomy. That's all I got, bro. Starting a family.

[A]

But I just mean, like, as you get older and that time becomes less and less and they are less dominant in your life, you start to realize that, oh, yeah, this is. Is not a forever thing. This is. Yeah. When you're young, everything is like, yeah,

[C]

you're just more selfish, too.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're worried about making friends and doing the thing in your life and what's going on and. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Here's how I knew that my mom was going to be opening up this weekend.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. On the drive home from the airport, she picks up me and my girl. I don't know how we got into it. She told me about a time she shit her pants recently.

[A]

This is the opening door.

[C]

I was like, she's playful. She's playful.

[A]

She's playful. Yeah.

[C]

You want to. Can I tell you how the story ended?

[A]

Sure.

[C]

She's like, I skipped by the toy, just went straight to the shower. I was like, dude, we're gonna hang out this weekend.

[A]

That was like, your cue.

[C]

I was like, oh, she's like, being funny. Like, she's. I was like, oh, great. She's feeling. She feels. She felt light.

[A]

Ah, yeah.

[C]

And she's also, like, gearing up or gearing down maybe for retirement. So she's kind of working part time. She's spending more time with my niece, her granddaughter.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So, yeah. She just seems so much more light. Yeah. So while I was home, there was always just these. Without trying, just these moments.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Where she would share stuff about her relationship with my grandma and, like, frustrations there and how she wishes she was better. And. That was really nice.

[A]

It's interesting that, you know, I think you picked up on something there with, like, her. She's putting her guard down, you know, because she doesn't. Maybe she doesn't feel like she has to be as strict or as busy because of work and, like, all this other stuff.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, yeah, it was. It was really great, man. The three of us. Myself, my girl, my mom.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We spent a lot of time together. And, yeah, we were in the kitchen, the three of us, just, like, cooking, preparing stuff, because we were. They were doing. I think it was Easter weekend.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I was there, and I was flying out Saturday, so they had everybody over Saturday for, like, a pre Easter so I could be a part of, like, food and all that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So we were helping my mom prep food and all that, and at one point, my mom sent me on a grocery run, and if I saw the panic in my girl's eyes of just, like, being home, just, like, being alone with my mom and, like, you know that moment, like, the first time you're, like, one on one with your parents, your partner's parents.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And I just saw that, and I was like. It was just one. Because one of those times, most of the time you can squeeze in and, like, you want to go for a quick ride or etc.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Hey, you want to come? It wasn't it. They were. They had their hands dirty with. And I was just like, oh, man, she's gonna. Guys, you gotta do it.

[A]

I gotta leave you here. Yeah.

[C]

I was like, I wonder if it's because. I mean, my mom, she's very personal. She's very. She's a sweetheart. She's.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Yeah. So I really. I wondered. I was like, is it gonna be small talk, or is my girl gonna get to experience one of these moments? Mm. What do you think happened? I got the tea when I got back from the store.

[A]

Yeah. I bet she got a moment. I bet she got a little moment.

[C]

A long one.

[A]

A long one.

[C]

A long moment.

[A]

Okay. All right. I'm interested now. Okay. I mean, I was interested before, but I gotta hear it now.

[C]

Yeah. So when I left, they got into talking about my mom, started sharing with

[A]

my girl

[C]

what it has been like for her seeing me fall in love again,

[A]

Buddy.

[C]

After my last partner died and. Yeah. Mm. Why is. Why is your face like that by.

[A]

You're killing me, man.

[C]

Why?

[A]

That's so sweet, dude.

[C]

Yeah. Talk to my girl about how she was really worried about me for a long time, how. How hard it was for her to watch how much pain I was in and not knowing what to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that she's really grateful that, you know, I found someone who is loving and seems to be a good fit for me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And I'm at Whole Foods making sure the eggs aren't cracked, you know?

[A]

Yeah. God, I love that, man. Yeah.

[C]

That got you, huh?

[A]

That really Got me. I almost cried.

[C]

Yeah, you're always.

[A]

I won't. I'm wailing about something.

[C]

What happened to you now?

[A]

Just how sweet and endearing it is. That just like, the art of noticing, right? And because she's not. She hasn't brought this up to you. You guys have barely really talked about

[C]

here and there, but not nothing like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so here your mother is, like, witnessing this thing, and it is. I mean, that's the thing. It almost feels like it's what it must feel like. I'm trying to find the words. What it must feel like to be a parent, to have a kid who has went through this and then be able to witness this healing process and this love again for your child to see that, like. And this hard exterior that you paint your mom in sometimes where it's like, business always. You know what I mean? Like, this is. You know, figure it out. We gotta go. And to have this soft moment that is so soft and so tender. I didn't have it, but she's having these moments that are so tender. God damn, dude.

[C]

Yeah, that's really special. Yeah.

[A]

And.

[C]

Yeah. And I still am looking back at this trip. Yeah. I just haven't been given her enough credit, you know, I just didn't think. I don't know what I thought. I don't know if I thought she wasn't interested in these kinds of conversations or if she wasn't capable, but it is. Yeah. It's a really nice thing to watch. To watch her change, even. And that's the thing. I'm like, is she changing or am I changing the way I see her?

[A]

We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy. Hang tight. I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[C]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[A]

I'm using BetterHelp. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[A]

Not a good fit. And that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[C]

And you're married now.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

Never, Never. You're in love now.

[A]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[C]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even Know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[C]

Let's do one together.

[A]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[C]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy

[A]

with you, Dude, No.

[C]

You think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[A]

I know you will.

[C]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor, and if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10 off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhand therapy. We love you guys. Is it just my perspective is changing and I'm seeing her more accurately now, or is she changing over time as she has now become a grandmother and different experiences with children that she's not raising and not responsible for that she. All she has to do with my granddaughter is love her and enjoy her.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, how is that changing my mom? So I have, like, all these things, and I don't know what's happening. I don't know if she's changing. I don't know if my lens is changing. I'm sure all of it's probably true.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's all of it happening.

[C]

Yeah. But it's. Yeah, it's nice.

[A]

How'd you feel when you heard about the moment?

[C]

Honestly, pretty unremarkable for me. I was just happy that they weren't uncomfortable with each other. Yeah, that was pretty much it. Um. Yeah, I was glad they. They were just able to get to that moment because that's not a. Something you can do when someone leaves if there's not.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

An underlying, you know, comfort with that

[A]

other person, knowing what you know about your mother and the way she approaches topics and avoids topics and this and that. Like, do you think that was easy for her or hard?

[C]

I don't know. My instinct is to say that it's. It's hard for her. But when I. When I reflect back on the rest of the weekend and the other moments and conversations like that that we had, they didn't seem hard. Yeah, it didn't seem hard at all for her. Yeah. And that brings me back to. I just Maybe have not been given her enough credit.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think that goes into only seeing her as my mother when. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe as an adult, she's able to be more of just a person, just another person in my life. She's not. I don't know. She's not raising me anymore. Did you ever get to that point with your mom? How old was your mom when she passed?

[A]

66. She just turned 66.

[C]

Okay. My mom is. She was born in 62, so she is

[A]

56.

[C]

63. She'll be 64 in June.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That took too long.

[A]

Yeah. I was expecting your tism to know that right away.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, you're a numbers guy.

[C]

Yeah, usually. Um,

[A]

that's. I don't. That's tricky. My mother and I were always close and I. So we would gossip and just think. So. Like, she always felt like more of a friend than a mom.

[C]

So was there connection there? Like when you say you guys were always close?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Then you usually followed up with, like, gossip and things like that.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

Which is that connection for you. Like, you feel like you know your mother and you're like that kind of thing.

[A]

I think it was more of a one way street. I think she knew a lot about me. I think she was. She didn't share a lot, but she was there a lot. Does that make sense?

[C]

Did you ask a lot?

[A]

I was young. I didn't really, you know, and as I got older, I did. We'd have big conversations when I got older, mainly about things that I was. I. I wanted things to be different with her. And so the conversations we would get into would be religion or body image, things like that. I think you said it best a few episodes ago where you're like, I usually do.

[C]

I usually do.

[A]

Let me rephrase that. I think your therapist said it best a few episodes ago when she said that you need to date your mom. I never got to date my mom. I never learned about aspirations and like childhood. That feels like a. Like a dating thing, you know, like a relationship on that deeper level. I never got to there with her. I just wasn't interested then like I am now. Oh, it's a bummer. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. My mother. My mother also kept a lot of secrets, but I think she thought that she was. I know that she thought that she was like, is for protection, so. But what it does is it harms my scope of things. It harms my reality. The things that she was keeping from me to protect me about my father were Things that I never got to learn about my father. And so that keeps me from actually knowing who he was. Really.

[C]

Does it? Do you. Let me ask you this.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Let me phrase it this way. Do you think that you could have a sense of knowing your father without. With him still dying when you were 10?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

She. She felt like the only oracle, you know, like there was nobody else that was. I was close enough with. That was close enough with him that I could. You know, years later, after my mother passed, I sat down with my stepsister and she came out to New York. I was doing shows. She came there for the weekend, and it was like a year after mom passed, and we spent the whole weekend talking about dad because she. She got a chance to, like, she had sober dad. She had young dad. She had, like, dad. I had. I had Craig. You know what I mean? Like, he was in and out. He was already drinking and things and on pain meds and things. And so I didn't have dad. And that was really special because I got to hear who he was, and that was. But that's pretty much the only real, like, oracle. Yeah.

[C]

Interesting. You're gonna say, this is Tism. I think. Yeah. I don't. I don't think stories help me gain a sense of knowing somebody.

[A]

That's insane. Well, that makes sense for you because you don't. You also are not interested in context. A lot of times, stories are context in character.

[C]

I don't think that's it. I think for me, because if someone's gonna tell me a story about my grandfather, I'm also. I'm getting that story from that person's perspective through their lens, through their memory. It's their memory.

[A]

Yeah. This is Tis. Yeah, yeah. This is where it becomes.

[C]

Yeah. I guess for me, I'm like, oh, that's a great story. I wonder if it's true. Accurate, that is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

You can just sink right into it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Sounds nice.

[A]

It's pretty great. Yeah, yeah. Because then I can. I can also. It's not that I have to have the same value. That story doesn't have the same value for me that it does for them. They don't set the value for it. I get to decide the value still.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So like I say, somebody tells you a story about your grandfather, and they're like, he helped me change a tire. And you're like, that was nice. But to them, they're like, he saved my day. I was really struggling. I didn't have money for somebody to change it. Like, this guy is a savior. And you're like, that's a nice thing to do, or, same thing with bad. I punched me one time, and.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

You know, so it's like their point of view or perspective doesn't change the value of what I get to set on that story or they don't get to tell me who he was. I still get to decide whether or what I think of him or whoever we're talking about. But the stories are context, and context helps you decide.

[C]

So how did that weekend change your. You got a lot of context. What did it change for you?

[A]

It added a lot of empathy for my father. Yeah, A lot. Yeah. That was the first time I saw. My father is like. Just a. Just a dude trying to figure it out, man. And he just couldn't figure it out. That added a lot, because the stories that I had, the context that I had before, that was just. He drinks, he's on pills, he's unreliable. Like,

[C]

you know, so what was she protecting you from? If those were the stories that you had?

[A]

Those stories came out much later, and they were very rare.

[C]

What did you have before from your mom?

[A]

She protected him in ways of saying that he was. She would never dog him or talk down about him or anything like that. She always wanted me to view him as my father. But when my stepsister came into the picture, that was when those kind of lines got colored in, and I got to see. I got to see more of a full picture. And it wasn't just like, that's your dad. It's like, okay, but who. What did he do? Who is he? What's going on? And so she was able to come in and paint those a little bit more clear. Yeah.

[C]

We'll be right back with more secondhand therapy after this. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[A]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[C]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[A]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[C]

All right, so here's the thing. Daddy already did it. Okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic and trust me, you do, here's what you do. You go to trypsychic source.com sht10. Okay? You're gonna get 40 minutes, 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with and look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[A]

Okay, all right.

[C]

Talk about my love life.

[A]

Trying to see some. Some.

[C]

Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just, like, a spiritual thing. See where I'm at. Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[A]

Oh, my God. I can't wait.

[C]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it. And then DM us, because I want to hear how it went.

[A]

Oh, I can't.

[C]

I.

[A]

Please, please DM us.

[C]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[A]

I want the tea. I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[C]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[A]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[A]

It's not a good fate, and that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[C]

And you're married now.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

Never. Never. You're in love now.

[A]

I have to talk about this to my therapist.

[C]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[C]

Let's do one together.

[A]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[C]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you?

[A]

Dude, no.

[C]

You think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[A]

I know you will.

[C]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy, and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhand therapy. We love you guys. And now we're in the car on the way back to the airport because I'm flying home and my mom. I don't remember how we get into these fucking conversations, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Starts talking about what it was like to make the decision to leave my dad.

[A]

Buddy, you're getting bangers.

[C]

Yeah. And I was like, is she doing this on. Does she listen to the podcast?

[A]

You're like, are you dying?

[C]

Do you know that I'm trying to connect with you? You're doing so good. I didn't even ask.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

She's talking about. I think we're talking about my grandparents. And she was talking about how she knew because my mom got pregnant with my sister and had my sister found out she was pregnant with me three months after my sister was born. So she is a three month old and finds out she's pregnant again.

[A]

Yeah. Jesus.

[C]

Yeah. Like, have some control. She's like, I did. I was like, sounds like my dad for sure. Very impatient man. And she was talking about how she remembered I was. I think I was 2, so my sister would have been 3. She had this realization that. Well, she had a realization that she had a decision to make. Do I do the divorce now before the kids remember it, or do I chuck up a Hail Mary even though I know probably when they're 12 or 13, it's going to boil over to a point where it's so bad where I'm going to have to do it. Yeah. And she said she did what she thought was best.

[A]

What are you feeling in this moment?

[C]

I don't remember. I was honestly just trying to, like, absorb and listen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I was also. I was thinking about what that must have been like for her. One knowing you married the wrong guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That you got married too young, you married the wrong guy and now you have two kids with him. And now you're like, okay, do I want my kids to grow up feeling how I feel in the house with this man?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or do I create a quote, broken home in. Because, I mean, this is 1990. 1991. I mean, my grandparents are a town Roman Catholic.

[A]

Like, yeah.

[C]

She's got, you know, her. She went to church growing up. You know, she has. Yeah.

[A]

There's pressure.

[C]

Yeah. Like, you don't divorce. You don't do that. And

[A]

yeah.

[C]

She decided. Yeah. I'd rather my kids not have memories of their parents hating each other. And I asked her why she married him in the first place. I was like, how did he get you?

[A]

Like, Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I. I know My dad, like, he's. He's an expert at being, like, He's a typical narcissist, expert at being likable. Very charming, very likable, very gregarious. Like, he's good at it.

[A]

Mm.

[C]

But to marry one, you know, I get, like, going on a few dates and then being like, you know, I think you might be a prick. And she said she fell in love with his family. She fell in love with his parents, and she thought. Yeah. She's like, I fell in love with his father. And I thought that's what I was signing up for.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Love and potential when they.

[C]

Isn't that a mind dude? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So how does that change your perspective on now, knowing this side of it? Like, how does it change your perspective on looking back at your childhood? Like, does it change anything? Like, because, you know, you grew up kind of with separate families and not have this relationship with your dad has always been kind of. Yeah.

[C]

He was all. Yeah. When we were young. Young. We would see him because he lived in California when we were young, so we would see him for, like, two, three weeks over the summer.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then every other Christmas. And then eventually he moved to Phoenix, and we would see him, like, one or two weekends a month.

[A]

Yeah. But.

[C]

Didn't change anything for me, really. Yeah. I've always. I've never had a doubt that my mom made the right decision

[A]

about. Yeah.

[C]

Divorcing my dad early. And, like, I have. I have no memories of my dad in the house. The only memories I have are of being raised by a single mother. And the earliest memories I have, my dad are flying to California alone on airplane with my sister. Jesus.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the flight attendants would give us, like, the little wings, and, like, that's crazy. Help us, like, feel cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. That's. Those are the earliest memories I have of my dad, and I'm. I'm grateful for that. I don't. Man, I have. I have a lot of. I guess it's sympathy. I was gonna say empathy, but I don't think it is. I have a lot of sympathy for people who grow up in a home where their parents just do not like each other.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

And even though I didn't grow up with my dad, I've still seen the way he treats his wives. So I'm his third wife. He can be very nice and very kind and loving, but he can also be very demeaning and a very hard person to live with, I think. And I guess to your question, it didn't change Anything for me. I've always known my mom made the right choice. I did spend. Not a lot. I spent some time thinking about how I think I would be different if I had been raised with my dad around.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It ain't good, I'll tell you that much.

[A]

Yeah. You think you'd be that much different?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

In what ways?

[C]

I would have a. I would have a much lower opinion of women. I would have a much lower value for women. I think I would. Would have been definitely, when I was younger, much more of a womanizer.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

I would have been more of a. Much more of a boy's boy. A man's man. Yeah. But I also think that there's some good things that I'm probably. If I'm honest with myself, I don't think I would have been scared so much as a kid. No, I think I would have. I would have learned how to be more confident. I would have learned how to be more brave. I would have just would have been scared of less. So it wouldn't have been all bad, but. I think everything happened for the best.

[A]

Yeah. Have you expressed that to your mother in conversations before?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I do wonder what would be different for my sister because I've always thought she has some weird daddy abandonment issues. They've never really been close to my recollection or to my knowing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But my sister's also just been so angsty her whole life. And, I mean, even when she was like 4 or 5, she just did not like people.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Does.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Didn't want anything to do with people. And I'm like, I wonder how she would be different.

[A]

You think having your father in. In the picture more would have changed?

[C]

What if I know, bro? I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[C]

I don't know. I mean, things would definitely be different. I don't know how. I guess the thing I'm more curious about would be why? Like, it's a whole different life when there's a male figure in the house. And I. Even just for myself, like, I would imagine there's gotta be some sort of thing of, like, pleasing your father, making sure dad's happy with what you're doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think that's a whole different type of expectation for a female to be like, daddy's perfect little girl or, like, there's gotta be. I assume there's some sort of expectation or some sort of feeling of something when there's a male figure in the house. I would assume you don't Think that's

[A]

true for both boys and girls?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Or like, equal. Sorry, you don't think that's equal?

[C]

I don't know if it's equal. I just. That's how it would be different for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it was very different for my sister and I, what we thought making my mom proud was, and how much pressure it was.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about the dynamic changes now with, like, the traditional idea of, like, what I grew up in the 80s, where, like, the man was still like, the man of the house kind of thing. And, like, you're talking about pleasing them, making sure they're happy, and, like, all that stuff. Like, you're living up to this expectation of dad because dad is, like, head of the house. But now, like, times have changed so much that I'm wondering about the generations coming up where oftentimes the roles are switched around or there is no, for lack of a better term, like, higher power in the house. You know? Like, I wonder what those expectations are and what they. How much they've changed between that. I, you know, what I grew up with in the 80s versus today.

[C]

I have no idea. Man, it's gotta be weird being a kid nowadays.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean. Yeah. Cause you gotta think kids now are coming up one. Like, dude, every time my girl comes home from work and she mentions how every kid has a laptop.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

I'm like, like, dude, not everybody had a laptop in college when I was there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like. Like kids don't know how to write.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, kids are growing up in a house where their parents maybe. Well, you know, probably are just staring at their phones at the dinner table.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, it's a weird thing. Like, we. I don't know, I think when we were young, we were trying to get our parents attention from cooking dinner or work or dad or sister. And you're trying to peel your mom off her phone.

[A]

Yeah, because we had, like, those sporadic moments of attention loss. Right. Like, dinner only takes an hour or whatever. You know, you're talking like your mom's scrolling for your dad or whoever in the house is scrolling for. Then you go to bed and you're like, hey.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But also, I would imagine that they're also scrolling. They're not interested in.

[C]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. It's. It's weird to think about the disconnect. Yeah.

[C]

I. I mean, I. Yeah, I think we're becoming less by the generation. I don't know. I was going to Say we're becoming less and less human, but I don't know. I hope that's not true. It seems like younger people are starting to care about humanity and people being treated fairly, at least.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But they also don't want to have sex with each other because they've been watching people have sex since they were 10 years old online.

[A]

Yeah. There's also, like, this shyness that I've noticed from since COVID that I missed the fucking pandemic.

[C]

Bring it back.

[A]

But there is this new kind of, like, embarrassment that comes with social interactions that are. Are like. That has been heightened, I feel like, than when I was a kid. I saw this last night. There was a moment. I went to a listening party last night, and there was a moment where they were doing a raffle at the end of the night, and the woman at the record store got up. She's young. She's like 23, maybe 24, something like that. And she does the raffle. And she literally, like, people just started coming to the front of the store. There was no real announcement. She just very lightly was like, okay, we're doing a raffle. And then, like, did the thing and pulled out a name. Was like this, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, here. And she's like, that's it. And that was the whole thing. And I'm thinking, like, if this were. Sound like an old man now, like, if this were back in the day, like, when I was coming back, it would be like, we're getting ready to do a raffle. And they'd be cheering, and they'd be like, we're doing this. And it's like, a thing, you know? And, like, you wouldn't. It's too cringe now. The embarrassment of saying we're doing a thing is so, like, oh, they'd rather die, you know?

[C]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it does seem a thing of, like, being perceived in person rather than being perceived on a screen.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Because a screen, you can. You can control the angle you control. Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

I mean, of course, all that stuff is bleeding over. Right? Like, how you're perceived online versus the reality of who you are and where that is headed now with, like, as technology just advances, like, how much are we going to be able to hide behind that?

[C]

I mean, I don't. Whenever I think about online and, like, how it affects people, I never think about it from the angle of, like, hiding. I wonder when are people gonna be okay having a happy life without proving to people they have a happy life? Hello, my little bear cub. I just wanted to say thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you would like ad free episodes and other bonus content, please head on over to patreon.com secondhandtherapypod okay, love you. Bye. And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.